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What Makes TPC Sawgrass Great (and How It Could Be Better) · Designing Golf

0:00
Speaker 1: TPC Sawgrass is one of the most recognizable golf courses
0:03
Speaker 1: in the world, but I don't think it's especially well understood.
0:07
Speaker 1: Its design is more subtle and sophisticated than I think
0:10
Speaker 1: many people give it credit for. So in today's episode
0:13
Speaker 1: of Designing Golf, I'm talking with my colleague Joseph Lamania
0:17
Speaker 1: about what makes TPC Sawgrass great. I'm Garrett Morrison, and
0:22
Speaker 1: this is Designing Golf, all right, Joseph. I think you're
0:31
Speaker 1: the number one fan of TPC Sawgrass on the Friday
0:35
Speaker 1: Golf staff. That's why I wanted you to be on
0:37
Speaker 1: this pod. Do you think it's the best non major
0:40
Speaker 1: venue on the PGA Tour?
0:43
Speaker 2: I do. I also really love Mirfield Village and I
0:48
Speaker 2: think it gives it a run for its money. Also interesting,
0:51
Speaker 2: in doing some prepping for this pod, some of the
0:54
Speaker 2: similarities between the golf course and reading Bury me in
0:58
Speaker 2: a pot Bunker Die's book. In preparation for this pod,
1:02
Speaker 2: Mierfield Village is actually referenced in that chapter about TPC Sawgrass,
1:06
Speaker 2: so I'd say it's one of those too. I would
1:08
Speaker 2: put TPC Sawgrass a little bit ahead of Mierfield Village,
1:11
Speaker 2: but yeah, big fan of this golf course.
1:13
Speaker 1: I love the players championship unexpectedly. Also, Glenn Abbey, the
1:18
Speaker 1: longtime former Canadian Open host, is mentioned in that chapter
1:22
Speaker 1: in Pete Dye's book as well. May may come as
1:26
Speaker 1: a surprise to some people who are familiar with Glenn Abbey,
1:29
Speaker 1: but that was actually a reference point for Pete Dye
1:32
Speaker 1: in designing TPC Sawgrass, and we can maybe touch on
1:35
Speaker 1: that later. But a great book that I recommended a
1:38
Speaker 1: couple of episodes ago when I talked with Stephen Proctor
1:41
Speaker 1: about the golf architecture books that everyone should read. Bury
1:44
Speaker 1: Me in a pop Bunker is really essential reading whenever
1:47
Speaker 1: a Pete die course pops up on the PGA tour.
1:51
Speaker 1: So we are going to be cribbing a lot of
1:53
Speaker 1: little factoids from that chapter, probably right.
1:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, some explosive quotes, some construction talk. I don't know
2:02
Speaker 2: if we'll get too the construction talk, but I think
2:04
Speaker 2: the explosive quotes and how much players hated it will
2:06
Speaker 2: probably come up.
2:08
Speaker 1: Absolutely, the player's reaction to the course was notable, and
2:14
Speaker 1: I think has been somewhat forgotten. And it's especially surprising
2:20
Speaker 1: to see some of the names come up that come
2:23
Speaker 1: up in that story, it's some players complaining about the
2:26
Speaker 1: course that you wouldn't expect, perhaps to complain about interesting
2:31
Speaker 1: golf architecture. So that's all part of the TPC Sagas story.
2:35
Speaker 1: We'll get into some of it in this episode. But
2:37
Speaker 1: our main intention here is just to lay out the
2:40
Speaker 1: things that we love about this course and a couple
2:44
Speaker 1: of things that we think could be better about TPC
2:48
Speaker 1: saga So we each came with three things we like
2:51
Speaker 1: and one thing that we dislike. So let's let's dive
2:54
Speaker 1: into the likes. Is what is your first thing that
2:57
Speaker 1: you love about TPC Sagras.
3:00
Speaker 2: I think the one I want to lead with because
3:02
Speaker 2: it may facilitate discussion in some of the other ones
3:07
Speaker 2: that we have prepared. But I love the interaction between
3:11
Speaker 2: the small greens and the hazards at TPC Sawgrass and
3:16
Speaker 2: what that ultimately leads to. I don't want to get
3:19
Speaker 2: too technical with like analytics type jargon, but you essentially
3:26
Speaker 2: have to aim away from hazards, right. That's a huge
3:29
Speaker 2: tenet of modern course management that clearly Pete die understood
3:34
Speaker 2: that pretty well when he was laying out this golf course.
3:37
Speaker 2: It's like a great example is the sixteenth pole, part
3:40
Speaker 2: five that I think most people would recognize where you
3:42
Speaker 2: have a small green and you might be hitting something
3:44
Speaker 2: from you know, two twenty five to thirty out where
3:49
Speaker 2: if you were to aim at the center of that green,
3:52
Speaker 2: you'd be bringing that water on the right side into play.
3:55
Speaker 2: And so what you see is some of the savviest,
3:58
Speaker 2: most course management, sound trained, disciplined golfers like Scottie Scheffler.
4:04
Speaker 2: They're aiming at the left side of that green, and
4:07
Speaker 2: that brings a lot of chip shots into your range
4:10
Speaker 2: of outcomes. And so you see a lot of players
4:13
Speaker 2: who they have other traits as well, but you tend
4:16
Speaker 2: to see a lot of players with short game, with
4:18
Speaker 2: good short game excel on this golf course. And that's
4:20
Speaker 2: a big part of the reason why so Cam Smith,
4:23
Speaker 2: Seewou Kim, these are past champ Justin Thomas, past champions
4:28
Speaker 2: with very strong short game. When that's part of the
4:31
Speaker 2: reason is that you're kind of having to aim away
4:34
Speaker 2: into the fairway, think about where you want to leave
4:36
Speaker 2: it around greens, but taking some of these hazards out
4:39
Speaker 2: of play that are up around the greens, and these
4:42
Speaker 2: if the greens were eight thousand square feet that'd be
4:45
Speaker 2: less of a consideration. But since they're small, they're fifty
4:47
Speaker 2: five hundred square feet on average, you just can't aim
4:51
Speaker 2: directly at the center. You'd be bringing too much penalty
4:53
Speaker 2: into play.
4:55
Speaker 1: Would you say that a distinctive thing about TPC sawgrass
4:58
Speaker 1: is how the green side hazards are to certain pin positions,
5:04
Speaker 1: like how they really impinge upon important areas of the
5:08
Speaker 1: green I.
5:09
Speaker 2: Think sixteen is a great example of that one thing.
5:12
Speaker 2: I'd be curious for your perspective. I mean, there are
5:14
Speaker 2: some areas where in the fairway a lot of bunkers
5:18
Speaker 2: are keeping balls from going into hazards that it feels
5:22
Speaker 2: distinctly TPC sawgrass. Like I'm thinking of the sixth hole,
5:25
Speaker 2: and there's a number of holes where a fairway bunker
5:27
Speaker 2: kind of lines the side of a fairway, but right
5:30
Speaker 2: up around the greens. Yeah, I mean the fourth hole
5:33
Speaker 2: would be another example. I love the fourth hole. Sixteen's
5:37
Speaker 2: probably the best example. Eleven's a good example, So yeah,
5:40
Speaker 2: I would certainly agree with that.
5:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean from an architectural perspective, not just purely
5:45
Speaker 1: from an analytical or course management perspective. The variety of
5:51
Speaker 1: the green complexes at TPC Sawgrass is outstanding. The greens
5:56
Speaker 1: are contoured differently, they're you know, they're not the biggest,
6:00
Speaker 1: and so finding that variety is sort of a design feat.
6:05
Speaker 1: But the way the hazards interact with the greens, that
6:09
Speaker 1: the interface between the putting surface and the surrounds of
6:13
Speaker 1: the greens is always different. It's different from hole to
6:17
Speaker 1: hole to whole and really inventive, and that's something that
6:20
Speaker 1: I love about this golf course. It's so creative how
6:25
Speaker 1: Dye designed the surrounds of these greens and how many
6:29
Speaker 1: different ways he found to do something unique with each green. Complex.
6:36
Speaker 1: The bunkers are always kind of snaking around the greens
6:40
Speaker 1: in different ways and pushing into the putting surface in
6:43
Speaker 1: different ways. Sometimes there's water, sometimes there's trees, sometimes there
6:47
Speaker 1: are these little nests of mounds. It's always something different,
6:52
Speaker 1: and I think that keeps players off balance a bit
6:55
Speaker 1: going through the golf course and provides some excitement, some variety,
7:01
Speaker 1: and so I think that's something that's that's absolutely outstanding
7:04
Speaker 1: about TPC Sawgrass, and it's something that when you see
7:08
Speaker 1: other architects try to imitate Pete Dye's style, that they
7:13
Speaker 1: don't quite get in the same way, because it takes
7:16
Speaker 1: real skill to design greens in this way, and so
7:20
Speaker 1: that's that's something that's one of the one of the
7:22
Speaker 1: biggest things I really like about about this golf course.
7:27
Speaker 1: So I should roll in then to my first thing
7:31
Speaker 1: that I love about TPC Sawgrass, and it relates to
7:36
Speaker 1: what I was just talking about there. I really like
7:39
Speaker 1: how the kind of overtly manufactured shaping of this golf
7:44
Speaker 1: course actually looks really cool. You know. TPC Sawgrass is
7:48
Speaker 1: a completely fabricated course. The land was essentially a forest
7:54
Speaker 1: that had been flooded as a side effect of the
7:58
Speaker 1: construction of the Intercoastal Waterway, and there was very little
8:04
Speaker 1: of the pre existing landscape that could or should have
8:07
Speaker 1: been preserved. So in manufacturing the course, it was not
8:13
Speaker 1: dies intent to make it look like it had always
8:16
Speaker 1: been there. He was creating something different. He was building
8:19
Speaker 1: a stadium, right. His brief was to build a golf stadium,
8:23
Speaker 1: and the word stadium kind of comes with a with
8:26
Speaker 1: an implication of a heavily manufactured esthetic, and so he
8:31
Speaker 1: was not going for natural. He was going for something
8:33
Speaker 1: a little more heightened, and that doesn't that doesn't always
8:37
Speaker 1: result in in great things. That doesn't always result in
8:40
Speaker 1: great architecture. Often, when when architects go for this kind
8:43
Speaker 1: of maximalist look, they don't end up with something that
8:47
Speaker 1: looks interesting. Usually it looks sort of cheesy. One podcast ago,
8:52
Speaker 1: PJ brought up the waterfalls at Valhalla. That's sort of
8:58
Speaker 1: an example of the result you often get when architects
9:02
Speaker 1: go big like this or come up with something manufactured
9:06
Speaker 1: or heightened. I think Pete Die had really good taste
9:11
Speaker 1: in manufacturing the aesthetics of his golf course, of all
9:15
Speaker 1: of his golf courses. In fact, he kind of gives
9:19
Speaker 1: these shapes a handcrafted, irregular appearance that, especially in the
9:25
Speaker 1: early versions of TPC Sagrass, was really successful. He uses
9:31
Speaker 1: contrast extremely well. You know, think of the contrast between
9:34
Speaker 1: the big long waste areas at Sagrass and then the
9:39
Speaker 1: very tiny, kind of pushed up pop bunkers. So he
9:45
Speaker 1: uses that kind of strange contrast to really striking effect.
9:49
Speaker 1: And then he also has this eye for asymmetrical shapes
9:53
Speaker 1: and arrangements right, and these unexpected flourishes, unbalanced looks, you know,
10:00
Speaker 1: around the greens, you see these kind of sudden nests
10:03
Speaker 1: of pop bunkers, but that's not extended all the way
10:08
Speaker 1: around the green in a regular way. It's always kind
10:12
Speaker 1: of surprising where these little bits of fabricated stuff show
10:19
Speaker 1: up on the course, and so again, it always kind
10:21
Speaker 1: of keeps you off balance. And I think it's a
10:24
Speaker 1: to me, a really pleasing aesthetic that the course has,
10:27
Speaker 1: and just compared to a lot of the other courses
10:30
Speaker 1: that were built in this era, and in fact a
10:33
Speaker 1: lot of the courses that were inspired by TPC Sawgrass
10:36
Speaker 1: and Harbor Town and other Die courses from the sixties,
10:40
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, TPC Sagrass now does not look nearly
10:44
Speaker 1: as cheap or as dated as a lot of those courses,
10:48
Speaker 1: and I think that's because of Die's control over and
10:53
Speaker 1: eye for the aesthetics of his shaping. Does that resonate
10:58
Speaker 1: with you at all?
10:59
Speaker 2: It does. I think TPC Sawgrass is stunning, especially when
11:04
Speaker 2: it's presented in the appropriate light, so to speak. I
11:10
Speaker 2: think there are probably a number of golf courses that
11:13
Speaker 2: are inspired in some way by TPC Sawgrass. One that
11:17
Speaker 2: comes to mind is you're going through that explanation that
11:20
Speaker 2: might I don't know if gaudy is the right word,
11:23
Speaker 2: but might be a little bit more overtly manufactured would
11:28
Speaker 2: be Le golf Nationale in France, which is.
11:31
Speaker 1: The great example. I think it has clearly Die inspired, right.
11:35
Speaker 1: It's the point that people often think when they look
11:38
Speaker 1: at the course, well, did Pete die design this?
11:40
Speaker 2: It has a lot of resemblance and I think the
11:44
Speaker 2: other trade it shares, which I'm sure there's reasons people
11:48
Speaker 2: want would like to be critical of the Golf national
11:51
Speaker 2: I don't think it's anywhere near the masterpiece that TPC
11:53
Speaker 2: Sawgrass is, but this manufactured these moguls survey a distinct
11:59
Speaker 2: purpose aside from the playability of the golf course, which
12:03
Speaker 2: is offering vantage points for fans, which is something that
12:06
Speaker 2: was clearly a point of emphasis from the construction of
12:10
Speaker 2: TPC Sawgrass, And I think Pete dies brilliance in putting
12:14
Speaker 2: together a routing that was conducive to hosting a big
12:18
Speaker 2: tournament and giving fans strong vantage points without compromising on
12:22
Speaker 2: the architecture is a really impressive part of the story here.
12:26
Speaker 2: So that's one thing I admire about this golf course
12:29
Speaker 2: is to your point, kind of marrying that manufactured look
12:34
Speaker 2: with utility and not disrupting the golf. It's tough to
12:38
Speaker 2: do all of that on a piece of land that
12:40
Speaker 2: was flat and carved out of a swamp.
12:42
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, the form of TPC Sawgrass is following its function, right.
12:49
Speaker 1: Its function was to be a golf stadium, and everything
12:53
Speaker 1: that Pete Di did and designing the course kind of
12:56
Speaker 1: was the servant of that purpose. But at the same time,
13:00
Speaker 1: I'm you know, you know, trying to construct a stadium,
13:02
Speaker 1: you might end up with something really regular looking, really
13:06
Speaker 1: constructed looking, and maybe not that interesting because most stadiums
13:10
Speaker 1: are very symmetrical. But with TPC Sagrass, Die was very
13:15
Speaker 1: smart about how he broke up that regularity and made
13:18
Speaker 1: it interesting to look at. And I think that's something
13:21
Speaker 1: that Sagras does exceptionally well that other stadium courses, including
13:25
Speaker 1: ones that Die built later, don't do nearly as well.
13:29
Speaker 1: I think the Golf Nacional is a perfect example. To me,
13:33
Speaker 1: the esthetics of that course, the shaping of that course
13:36
Speaker 1: aren't nearly as pleasing to the eye. They're more regular
13:41
Speaker 1: to me that there's not that kind of flare of
13:44
Speaker 1: the unexpected and the surprising as you go through that
13:49
Speaker 1: golf course and look at its forms. Though, you know,
13:51
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to bash the golf nacional. It's not bad, right,
13:56
Speaker 1: It's not a bad version of this kind of golf.
13:58
Speaker 1: It just doesn't quite get to the high of Sawgrass.
14:01
Speaker 1: So what's your what's your second thing that you like?
14:05
Speaker 2: I'll go with something that we probably talked about in
14:09
Speaker 2: the past on Friday channels. But how good the par
14:11
Speaker 2: fives are. I think that it might be the best
14:15
Speaker 2: set of par fives in non major championship golf. It's
14:19
Speaker 2: hard to pick a favorite. I think nine is such
14:22
Speaker 2: an incredible par five tends to be most difficult, Yeah,
14:26
Speaker 2: it tends to be the most difficult of the par
14:28
Speaker 2: fives at Sawgrass. And the care about where you're gonna
14:33
Speaker 2: miss around that green, whether if you put the ball
14:35
Speaker 2: in play off the tee, if you're gonna go for
14:38
Speaker 2: it or not. As a real conversation, it depends on
14:41
Speaker 2: the wind, depends on the pin and where you can
14:44
Speaker 2: leave it, how soft the green is. Like there's that
14:46
Speaker 2: there's way more factoring into that decision than your standard
14:50
Speaker 2: run of the mill par five on the PGA Tour.
14:54
Speaker 2: But you could also pick any of the other three
14:56
Speaker 2: par fives and talk about different elements of them and
14:59
Speaker 2: what makes them fascinating. So I'm a huge, huge fan
15:03
Speaker 2: of the par fives, probably the bright spots of the golf.
15:07
Speaker 2: I mean, there's so many great golf holes out here,
15:09
Speaker 2: but I think the par fives are probably among the best.
15:13
Speaker 1: Nine and eleven stand out to me as being just
15:15
Speaker 1: the top of the heap among par fives, not only
15:20
Speaker 1: a TPC Sawgrass, but on the PGA Tour, maybe just
15:24
Speaker 1: in golf in general. They're so creative in how they
15:28
Speaker 1: use this sort of zigzag shape that Pete Dye really
15:32
Speaker 1: liked for par fives. Right. There's kind of an almost
15:36
Speaker 1: double dog leg element to a lot of the par
15:39
Speaker 1: fives that Pete Die designed for his championship courses. And
15:43
Speaker 1: I think part of the point of this is that
15:46
Speaker 1: zigzag shape in a par five creates a couple of options.
15:51
Speaker 1: You can follow the zigzag, which is the conservative way
15:55
Speaker 1: of playing the hole, or you can take some risks
15:58
Speaker 1: and try to make the zigzag straight essentially, try to
16:01
Speaker 1: play straight up the hole, cutting off the corners of
16:05
Speaker 1: the zigzag reached the green in two. Those are the
16:09
Speaker 1: kind of options that a zig zag par five creates
16:12
Speaker 1: for you. And the way that these particular zigzag par
16:17
Speaker 1: five's work makes it so they can't really be dominated
16:23
Speaker 1: by power that much. Right, some holes at some par
16:27
Speaker 1: fives at TPC Sawgrass more than others, have been susceptible
16:31
Speaker 1: to power. I think that sixteen has really changed in
16:34
Speaker 1: the way that it plays, right. It plays more like
16:37
Speaker 1: a long par four now, but a really interesting long
16:39
Speaker 1: par four. But if you look at nine, you just
16:42
Speaker 1: can't dominate that hole with power at all. Really, It's
16:47
Speaker 1: all of the par fives are kind of short by
16:49
Speaker 1: the modern standards of the PGA tour, but somehow or another,
16:54
Speaker 1: through the use of water and trees and this kind
16:58
Speaker 1: of zigzag, these snake shapes that he gave to the
17:01
Speaker 1: par fives, you just can't overwhelm these par fives. I guess.
17:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple things there. I mean, one trade of
17:09
Speaker 2: TPC Sawgrass that this is one way in which it's
17:13
Speaker 2: similar to Mirfield Village is that it's kind of most
17:16
Speaker 2: fairways are bound on the outer bounds, either by trees
17:20
Speaker 2: or some kind of hazard, so it does kind of
17:22
Speaker 2: prevent It's like the anti Tory pines where you can
17:26
Speaker 2: miss really wide out there and you're fine. You can't
17:29
Speaker 2: do that at sawgrass, So it prevents players from taking driver,
17:32
Speaker 2: you know, maybe aiming down the right side if there's
17:34
Speaker 2: a hazard on the left and swing freely and not
17:37
Speaker 2: worrying too much if that ball flares out too far
17:40
Speaker 2: to the right. You can't do that at TPC sawgrass
17:42
Speaker 2: because generally there's either some kind of water hazard lining
17:46
Speaker 2: one of the sides of the fairway or trees or both.
17:49
Speaker 2: So that's that's one reason I think with eleven, one
17:53
Speaker 2: thing you're touching on and not to allude to potential
17:56
Speaker 2: negatives that we will get too later. But I don't
17:59
Speaker 2: think there's a better example of a hole that should
18:02
Speaker 2: play firm than the eleventh hole, because what's such a
18:07
Speaker 2: cool part about the challenge of eleven is that to
18:09
Speaker 2: the left of the green there's water. To the right
18:11
Speaker 2: of the green, but to the left of the green
18:13
Speaker 2: it's short grass, and you have to actually control where
18:16
Speaker 2: that approach shot is going to end up. It's pretty
18:19
Speaker 2: rare on the PGA Tour at this point to have
18:22
Speaker 2: long irons into a green surrounded by short grass like
18:27
Speaker 2: that's not the setup of most PGA Tour courses. We've
18:31
Speaker 2: kind of surrounded them all by thick rough and so
18:33
Speaker 2: the more that ball can bounce and travel potentially into
18:36
Speaker 2: bad locations is such a part of the appeal of
18:39
Speaker 2: TPC sawgrass. Not every hole, but I think eleven's a
18:42
Speaker 2: really good example of that. And so when you're talking
18:44
Speaker 2: about you can't just overpower it, both of those factors
18:48
Speaker 2: are at play there, right. You can't just pound a
18:51
Speaker 2: driver or anywhere and not worry about where it ends up.
18:53
Speaker 2: And then on the approach shot, it's not just hitting
18:55
Speaker 2: some kind of moonshot seven iron that you're trying to
18:58
Speaker 2: carry a front bunker and get it to stop. Like
19:01
Speaker 2: on eleven here, you actually have to worry about where
19:03
Speaker 2: it's going to end up if you can control that,
19:05
Speaker 2: especially if it's firm.
19:07
Speaker 1: There's a certain randomness left of the eleventh green, And
19:11
Speaker 1: just to give people a picture, if you end up
19:14
Speaker 1: over there on eleven, which is an understandable place to
19:16
Speaker 1: end up because right of the green slash short of
19:19
Speaker 1: the green, you have water, so the bailout is going
19:22
Speaker 1: to be to the left. You have short grass over there.
19:24
Speaker 1: But if you end up over there, you've got a
19:27
Speaker 1: couple of pot bunkers that guard that side of the
19:29
Speaker 1: green or guard that side of the green area in general,
19:33
Speaker 1: and then you have this kind of contoured short grass,
19:37
Speaker 1: so you could end up with these extremely scary chips
19:42
Speaker 1: back to the green. And if it's firm, then you're
19:46
Speaker 1: trying to clip it off of firm turf to a
19:49
Speaker 1: green that's also firm, and you're worried about potentially running
19:52
Speaker 1: through or coming up short in one of these pot bunkers.
19:56
Speaker 1: And so if it is firm, if you bring that
20:00
Speaker 1: element of agronomy that should be there, then that is
20:05
Speaker 1: a very frightening shot. If it's soft, then the top
20:09
Speaker 1: players in the world aren't really going to be all
20:13
Speaker 1: that terrified of missing left on eleven. So I agree
20:18
Speaker 1: that the golf course needs to bring that extra element
20:20
Speaker 1: for some of these holes really to come alive.
20:23
Speaker 2: I guess just while we're here, because some of these
20:28
Speaker 2: crossover with Mirefield Village. The only reason I think it's
20:30
Speaker 2: important to keep hammering it is because one of the
20:33
Speaker 2: great players of that era, Jack Nicholas, designed that place,
20:37
Speaker 2: and I do think there's some clear crossover in what
20:40
Speaker 2: Pete Die was thinking and what Jack Nicholas was thinking.
20:42
Speaker 2: But a huge element of Mirefield Village is that when
20:45
Speaker 2: you get offline off the tee, it forces you to
20:48
Speaker 2: lay up because there are a hazard short of the green.
20:51
Speaker 2: This is like a common it's on a lot of
20:53
Speaker 2: the holes at Mirefield Village. Eleven at Sawgrass is another
20:57
Speaker 2: example where having that hazard cut off off the fairway
21:01
Speaker 2: pretty significantly short leaves yourself I don't know, ninety hundred
21:05
Speaker 2: yard wedge in right.
21:07
Speaker 1: The layup zone is way to the right too. It's
21:10
Speaker 1: kind of like off of the path to the green.
21:14
Speaker 1: You have to really redirect your your path to the
21:18
Speaker 1: hole in order to lay up on the hole basically exactly.
21:21
Speaker 2: So if you're a little bit off line off of
21:23
Speaker 2: the tea, it kind of forces you to hit into
21:25
Speaker 2: that area. Otherwise, like you're trying to hit a really
21:27
Speaker 2: risky shot up by that green, which especially if it's firm,
21:31
Speaker 2: could end up anywhere. So it's one of Mierfield Village
21:34
Speaker 2: really penalizes you by distance, like by forcing you into
21:38
Speaker 2: a wedge if you are offline, and there's a little
21:41
Speaker 2: bit of that at Sawgrass. The eleventh is probably the
21:45
Speaker 2: best example, but it's a cool way to test accuracy
21:47
Speaker 2: and it's a very effective strategy that Pete die deploys here.
21:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think this is the element that makes
21:53
Speaker 1: TPC Sawgrass, or one of the elements, but maybe one
21:57
Speaker 1: of the main elements that makes TPC Sawgrass a turnam
22:00
Speaker 1: a golf course, a golf course for professional golf golfers,
22:04
Speaker 1: and Mierfield Village I would say the same, because this
22:08
Speaker 1: characteristic of a golf course does not tend to be
22:11
Speaker 1: very accommodating of average players. This is not a type
22:14
Speaker 1: of design that you would introduce to a golf course
22:18
Speaker 1: that you mean to have the purpose of appealing to
22:22
Speaker 1: average golfers. This is a kind of design that is
22:27
Speaker 1: really suited to tournament play. And maybe that's where these
22:31
Speaker 1: different types of golf courses, the professional golf venue versus
22:35
Speaker 1: the venue for everyone, this is where they diverge a
22:38
Speaker 1: little bit. And I think that there should be both
22:41
Speaker 1: in the world of golf. But I'll always be a
22:43
Speaker 1: little bit challenged to love a golf course that can't
22:50
Speaker 1: do both right, that can't appeal to the average player
22:54
Speaker 1: as well as appeal to the professional player. Which isn't
22:56
Speaker 1: to say that TPC Sagress doesn't appeal to the average player.
23:00
Speaker 1: It seems that average players love going there and playing
23:02
Speaker 1: the golf course, seeing this place and enjoying it, but
23:06
Speaker 1: they do get beat up by it. It doesn't necessarily
23:08
Speaker 1: present a great model for building a golf course for
23:12
Speaker 1: the average player, and part of the reason for that
23:15
Speaker 1: is because of the use of hazards in this manner,
23:19
Speaker 1: where if you want to lay up, you can't get
23:24
Speaker 1: close to the green, you got to lay up way back,
23:27
Speaker 1: and then you're faced with almost an equally difficult shot
23:30
Speaker 1: the next time. This is a type of design that
23:33
Speaker 1: is really suited to tournament play as opposed to everyday play.
23:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think TPC Sawgrass is maybe a little more
23:39
Speaker 2: playable than some other very tournament style courses like Mierfield Village.
23:45
Speaker 2: But yes, point taken like the t shot on eighteen
23:48
Speaker 2: at TPC saw Grass is not for the twelve handicap,
23:51
Speaker 2: so I am with you almost entirely. I just think
23:56
Speaker 2: it's slightly more playable than the most aggressive style of
24:00
Speaker 2: that test.
24:01
Speaker 1: I agree with that, and I think that a big
24:04
Speaker 1: reason that it is slightly more playable than the likes
24:07
Speaker 1: of Mirefield Village or maybe some other PGA Tour courses
24:11
Speaker 1: or a championship courses. Yeah, Bayhill is a perfect example.
24:16
Speaker 1: One of the reasons for that is that Pete Die
24:19
Speaker 1: really uses diagonals at TPC Sawgrass quite a bit. And
24:23
Speaker 1: this use of diagonals is something that can make a
24:26
Speaker 1: course well suited to high level professional play as well
24:32
Speaker 1: as average everyday play, because when you have a fair
24:36
Speaker 1: way that's moving on a diagonal in relation to the
24:39
Speaker 1: te the good player is looking to cut off that
24:43
Speaker 1: diagonal and to make the longer carry. And it's not
24:46
Speaker 1: that hard for them to make these longer carries these days,
24:49
Speaker 1: but they're looking to cut off as much of it
24:52
Speaker 1: as possible and get up the corridor of the whole,
24:55
Speaker 1: whereas the average player has some room to play short
25:00
Speaker 1: and doesn't have to make as big of a carry
25:02
Speaker 1: in some of these situations. I think because TPC Sawgrass
25:06
Speaker 1: uses diagonal so insistently throughout the course that the course
25:10
Speaker 1: is still relatively playable for average golfers in some way.
25:17
Speaker 1: But you know, just just to dig into this idea
25:20
Speaker 1: of diagonals at TPC Sawgrass, just about every hole, or
25:24
Speaker 1: at least every long hole at TPC Sawgrass has some
25:27
Speaker 1: kind of diagonal element, right. Either it's a fair way
25:30
Speaker 1: that's moving on a diagonal in relation to the t
25:35
Speaker 1: or it's a diagonal hazard that is interacting with the
25:39
Speaker 1: line of play in some way, and Pete Die often
25:43
Speaker 1: uses these diagonals in a classic Golden Age way to
25:47
Speaker 1: create strategy. So the bigger the carry you make, the
25:50
Speaker 1: closer you're able to play to the inside of the diagonal,
25:53
Speaker 1: which might be pressed up against a hazard, the easier
25:56
Speaker 1: your next shot is going to be. But in addition
25:59
Speaker 1: to that, I think Pete Dye uses diagonals just to
26:03
Speaker 1: create discomfort and doubt about club selection. And I think
26:08
Speaker 1: probably the most familiar example of this is on the
26:11
Speaker 1: t shot on the eighteenth hole, where the fairway runs
26:15
Speaker 1: on a right to left diagonal pressed hard against a
26:19
Speaker 1: lake on the left side, and it's just an extraordinarily
26:23
Speaker 1: uncomfortable shot because players today are trained to get as
26:26
Speaker 1: far down the fairway as possible on any given hole,
26:30
Speaker 1: but to do that here you have to really aim
26:34
Speaker 1: out over the water and trust your shot. And if
26:37
Speaker 1: you don't trust your shot, if you bail out to
26:39
Speaker 1: the right and you take too much club, then you're
26:42
Speaker 1: ending up in the trees on the right side of
26:44
Speaker 1: the fairway. I think that's just a very uncomfortable thing
26:48
Speaker 1: for a player to a high level player to confront
26:52
Speaker 1: because they have to marry their intended distance with their
26:56
Speaker 1: line in a really specific way, make a choice and
27:00
Speaker 1: commit to it fully hit a good shot, because the
27:03
Speaker 1: consequences of missing on either side of the diagonal are
27:07
Speaker 1: pretty severe. Another of my favorite diagonals is on the
27:10
Speaker 1: ninth hole, where that canal crosses the fairway on a
27:15
Speaker 1: diagonal itself, and it's a really creative use of a
27:19
Speaker 1: diagonal because in order to get that angle into the
27:24
Speaker 1: green that is not obstructed by trees on the left
27:29
Speaker 1: side of the run up to the green, you either
27:32
Speaker 1: have to play short, like well short of the canal,
27:36
Speaker 1: or you have to play really close to the canal
27:38
Speaker 1: because if you blast it down the fairway, the farther
27:43
Speaker 1: down the fairway you go, the more left you have
27:46
Speaker 1: to go in order to avoid going into the water.
27:49
Speaker 1: But the more left you go, the more blocked out
27:52
Speaker 1: by trees on the next shot you're gonna be. So again,
27:55
Speaker 1: you have to make a choice on this hole. Yeah,
27:57
Speaker 1: if you want to go way down the fairway, then
27:59
Speaker 1: your next shot might have some tree trouble unless you
28:02
Speaker 1: play really close to the water. If you play well
28:05
Speaker 1: short of the canal, then you're just going to have
28:07
Speaker 1: a really long second shot you might be forced to
28:11
Speaker 1: lay up. And so almost every really great hole at
28:16
Speaker 1: TPC Sawgrass has some element like this, these diagonals, and
28:20
Speaker 1: I think it's the secret sauce that allows TPC Sawgrass
28:25
Speaker 1: to be durable as a tournament venue, because Pete Dye
28:30
Speaker 1: uses diagonals and doesn't just give you a straight corridor
28:35
Speaker 1: to play down. If you have a straight corridor to
28:37
Speaker 1: play down, today's best players are just going to move
28:41
Speaker 1: it way down that corridor. But Pete Die's holes are
28:44
Speaker 1: always moving or snaking or slanting in some way, and
28:49
Speaker 1: that's what continues to create the challenge, and that's what
28:52
Speaker 1: the defense against pure distance continues to be at TPC Sawgrass.
28:58
Speaker 2: I think I guess just to thoughts on two of
29:01
Speaker 2: those examples you brought up. Maybe I'm reaching a little bit,
29:04
Speaker 2: but this that's just the way that my brain works.
29:07
Speaker 2: I think you know your description of nine, the part five,
29:12
Speaker 2: in some ways it's kind of similar to eight at
29:14
Speaker 2: Augusta National, where you know, if you challenge the right
29:18
Speaker 2: side a little bit, like you're contending with less tree
29:22
Speaker 2: trouble on a very aggressive second shot that you may
29:25
Speaker 2: or may not be able to pull off based on
29:27
Speaker 2: how well you execute your tea shot. So they don't
29:29
Speaker 2: look exactly the same, but what they share is that
29:32
Speaker 2: it's a very long second approach shot where if you
29:35
Speaker 2: go too far left you have to hit some kind
29:37
Speaker 2: of draw in, which is increasingly difficult for the modern
29:42
Speaker 2: player who predominantly hits a fade. So I love the
29:46
Speaker 2: example you used on the ninth. On the eighteenth, I
29:49
Speaker 2: think another really cool element that's related. I think part
29:53
Speaker 2: of the reason that hole has aged so well is
29:55
Speaker 2: because a lot of players increasingly hit a fade off
29:59
Speaker 2: of the te and that hole does call for a draw.
30:03
Speaker 2: And what you'll see is that Scotty Scheffler every time
30:07
Speaker 2: he talks about this in his press conferences, he's hitting
30:11
Speaker 2: a draw there with a three wood. Because the modern
30:14
Speaker 2: driver doesn't really accommodate a draw. It's much more difficult
30:18
Speaker 2: to control. And we almost saw Justin Thomas hit that
30:20
Speaker 2: like snap draw with his driver when in Kent.
30:23
Speaker 1: Down at sixteen and eighteen at Zagrass.
30:26
Speaker 2: It probably should have gone in the water, right, especially
30:28
Speaker 2: if it we're a little firmer.
30:30
Speaker 1: Tiger does it too. Tiger plays that that same shot
30:32
Speaker 1: on eighteen, and it's always a little bit scary because
30:35
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, that that ball seems like it's maybe
30:37
Speaker 1: not completely in control, right.
30:39
Speaker 2: And if you were to hit a fade and it
30:42
Speaker 2: didn't fade back right, you could be reteeing versus if
30:46
Speaker 2: you hit a draw. And this is something Scotty talks about.
30:48
Speaker 2: Worst case it bounces into the water, but you know
30:51
Speaker 2: it's crossing up there and you can go, you can
30:53
Speaker 2: drop up there instead of retine. So it's cool a
30:56
Speaker 2: because most players hit a fade and it doesn't call
30:59
Speaker 2: for that. But I think it's also built in, like
31:01
Speaker 2: there's so many stock shots on the PGA Tour, but
31:04
Speaker 2: you kind of know when you get to eighteen, like
31:06
Speaker 2: all right, Scotty's going to hit this little draw with
31:09
Speaker 2: his three wood. It establishes this mental cadence of the
31:12
Speaker 2: hurdles that a golfer has to overcome on the way in. Obviously,
31:16
Speaker 2: seventeen is another example of that where the fan knows
31:19
Speaker 2: what's coming. I think the eighteenth t shot is another
31:22
Speaker 2: cool example of that, where you're going to see some
31:25
Speaker 2: golfers are going to hit their stock fade with driver
31:27
Speaker 2: and aim down the right center. But Scotty's going to
31:29
Speaker 2: hit that draw with a threewood, aim down the right
31:32
Speaker 2: side of the fairway and draw back. I think it's
31:34
Speaker 2: just cool to see those shots and be able to
31:35
Speaker 2: anticipate them.
31:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, playing a fade off of that tee feels a
31:39
Speaker 1: little bit insane because your margin for error is so slim,
31:43
Speaker 1: whereas playing that draw gives you a little bit more
31:46
Speaker 1: room to work with and landing the ball and letting
31:49
Speaker 1: it run out the way that it runs out when
31:51
Speaker 1: it's moving right to left. So it's one of those
31:54
Speaker 1: rare holes that kind of encourages shot shaping without the
31:58
Speaker 1: use of trees.
31:59
Speaker 2: Yeah.
32:00
Speaker 1: I mean, there are trees on the right side of
32:01
Speaker 1: the fairway, but it's not directing the shape of the
32:04
Speaker 1: shot like the trees do on the tenth hole at
32:06
Speaker 1: Augusta National. It is encouraging that shot because of the
32:10
Speaker 1: nature of the landing zone and the hazards that are
32:12
Speaker 1: guarding the fairway, which is pretty cool design in my book.
32:23
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Speaker 1: the USGA Green Section for supporting designing golf in its
33:24
Speaker 1: early days. Here, let's get back to my conversation with
33:28
Speaker 1: Joseph Leamania about TPC sawgrass. But let's get to your
33:38
Speaker 1: Let's get to your third, your third point, your third
33:41
Speaker 1: thing that you that you love about TPC sawgrass.
33:44
Speaker 2: This might be like my favorite part of TPC sawgrass,
33:49
Speaker 2: the cadence of the holes and how well it lends
33:52
Speaker 2: itself to excitement in a tournament that is a television
33:55
Speaker 2: product brilliant foresight by Pete Dide, like the tournament not
34:00
Speaker 2: being over until you have finished the seventeenth hole, and
34:04
Speaker 2: that anticipation from the time you tee off on the
34:06
Speaker 2: first hole, like I got to get through seventeen before
34:09
Speaker 2: this tournament is over. There's such a cool mix of
34:13
Speaker 2: wide range of outcomes. On sixteen you could make eagle,
34:16
Speaker 2: you could make bogie. Then you get to seventeen, especially
34:19
Speaker 2: if there's wind, any numbers in play, you could make
34:21
Speaker 2: a seven. And then having to conquer eighteen, especially that
34:25
Speaker 2: t shot that we just talked about. I guess I
34:28
Speaker 2: have a differing view from some architectural thought that the
34:34
Speaker 2: closing stretch doesn't need to be dynamite. Like I know
34:37
Speaker 2: there's some pretty underwhelming eighteen holes that eighteenth holes that
34:42
Speaker 2: get put under scrutiny. I do think it's reasonable to
34:48
Speaker 2: be critical of an eighteenth hole that doesn't ask that
34:52
Speaker 2: much of a player. And as much as I love
34:53
Speaker 2: Augusta National, the climax of that round comes a little
34:58
Speaker 2: earlier than it a TPC sawgrass, right, it's it's really hairy.
35:02
Speaker 1: Fifteenth.
35:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say ten through fifteen is like, yeah,
35:06
Speaker 2: the equivalent of sixteen through eighteen at Sawgrass, and to me,
35:10
Speaker 2: there's a lot of value, entertainment value in that coming
35:13
Speaker 2: later versus Okay, you finished fifteen at Augusta. If you're
35:18
Speaker 2: up by two, like you're kind of just coasting the
35:20
Speaker 2: last three holes, especially if you know nobody else is
35:23
Speaker 2: still playing who's in contention, You only just have to
35:27
Speaker 2: get through with a couple pars, maybe a bogie on eighteen,
35:30
Speaker 2: like Tiger and Scotti have done in the past. Like,
35:32
Speaker 2: it's not the most exciting finish. I love Augusta National,
35:36
Speaker 2: to be clear, but Sawgrass in saving that for the end,
35:42
Speaker 2: I think it's really cool cadence and it just makes
35:44
Speaker 2: for a great golf tournament.
35:45
Speaker 1: And it's a benefit I suppose of manufacturing the course
35:50
Speaker 1: from whole cloth, because part of the reason the eighteenth
35:54
Speaker 1: hole at Augusta National is underwhelming is because it has
35:57
Speaker 1: a job to do. It needs to get you back
36:00
Speaker 1: up to the clubhouse, and it's a pretty severe upslope.
36:04
Speaker 1: It would have been hard to create an extremely interesting
36:07
Speaker 1: hole there without moving a lot of earth, and Mackenzie
36:10
Speaker 1: and Jones weren't moving a lot of earth when they
36:13
Speaker 1: made Augusta National, and so part of the purpose of
36:17
Speaker 1: that hole is to is practical. It's not just to
36:21
Speaker 1: be an interesting hole. Whereas Pete Die's brief in creating
36:27
Speaker 1: sixteen through eighteen at TPC Sawgrass was to create this stadium,
36:33
Speaker 1: and he did that. He was able to just build
36:37
Speaker 1: that from the ground up. I mean literally, the lake
36:40
Speaker 1: where the seventeenth green at TPC Sawgrass is located was
36:44
Speaker 1: dug by the construction crew because there was good sand
36:49
Speaker 1: there that they were able to use to build golf
36:52
Speaker 1: features elsewhere on the course. And they ended up with
36:54
Speaker 1: this big lake and they're like, all right, I guess
36:56
Speaker 1: we're going to put a green in the middle of it.
36:58
Speaker 1: And that was actually Alice dyes Idea, Pete Diye's wife,
37:02
Speaker 1: and that's how that came about. So it is truly
37:05
Speaker 1: a manufactured environment and its only purpose is to be exciting,
37:11
Speaker 1: and it does that just brilliantly. You know, you think
37:14
Speaker 1: about the opportunity of the sixteenth hole. You can make
37:18
Speaker 1: eagle there, but there's a lot of danger if you
37:21
Speaker 1: decide to take that on. You have to hit two
37:24
Speaker 1: really good shots to get in position to make eagle
37:28
Speaker 1: on the sixteenth hole at TPC Sagas the seventeenth hole
37:32
Speaker 1: is you know, everybody's familiar with it, but there's just
37:35
Speaker 1: that wonderful tension that comes when a player walks up
37:39
Speaker 1: to that tee and when the ball is in the air,
37:43
Speaker 1: is it going to find the green or is it not.
37:45
Speaker 1: It's one of those ab penal designs that is really
37:49
Speaker 1: exciting to see in the closing stretch of a golf course.
37:53
Speaker 1: And then eighteen we've already talked about it. It's a
37:55
Speaker 1: brilliant golf hole, and just the pacing of that finishing stretch,
37:59
Speaker 1: the way that some holes are opportunities where others are
38:03
Speaker 1: ones that you just kind of hold on and survive,
38:07
Speaker 1: absolutely brilliant a triumph. It's been imitated elsewhere, but it's
38:14
Speaker 1: never been replicated. It's never been done nearly as well
38:17
Speaker 1: as this. And you just have to look at PGA West,
38:20
Speaker 1: Pete Die's own PGA West, which tries to achieve this
38:24
Speaker 1: same dynamic, but it doesn't quite get there. It's not
38:27
Speaker 1: quite as good, right, And I think there are a
38:29
Speaker 1: variety of reasons for that. There could be a whole
38:31
Speaker 1: paper on why the finishing stretch at PGA West isn't
38:35
Speaker 1: quite as good as the one at TPC sagas. But
38:37
Speaker 1: it's just to say that not just anybody could create
38:41
Speaker 1: a sequence of holes like this, and it is really
38:44
Speaker 1: an achievement that they are how they are.
38:48
Speaker 2: I also think the from like an entertainment value perspective,
38:53
Speaker 2: walking up sixteen and being able to see seventeen and
38:58
Speaker 2: see the group ahead of you play playing it and
39:00
Speaker 2: hearing the groans of the crowd. The proximity there. It's
39:04
Speaker 2: done in a very tasteful and exciting way, and I
39:08
Speaker 2: guess to just take things, you know, it's similar to
39:12
Speaker 2: eleven and twelve at Augusta. Really, like we have the
39:14
Speaker 2: anecdote of Brooks Koepka hitting a shot into twelve in
39:17
Speaker 2: the water and the twenty nineteen Masters and not wanting
39:19
Speaker 2: to show any kind of emotion because he he didn't
39:22
Speaker 2: want Tiger to realize that he had misstruck the iron.
39:26
Speaker 2: And when you have that relationship between players seeing each
39:29
Speaker 2: other on the golf course. They talked about this again
39:32
Speaker 2: at Pinehurst last year at the US Open and how
39:34
Speaker 2: cool it was having the greens and teas in close
39:36
Speaker 2: proximity because you can actually see your playing competitors, like
39:39
Speaker 2: that's another benefit of the closing stretch at Sawgrass. But
39:43
Speaker 2: I guess Garrett to maybe put an exclamation mark on
39:46
Speaker 2: this point. I think if a golf course is being
39:49
Speaker 2: constructed for the purpose of hosting a championship, a high
39:54
Speaker 2: level championship, to me like it should almost be a mandate,
39:59
Speaker 2: not a man and it's too strong of a word,
40:01
Speaker 2: but a strong closing stretch, And I think Sawgrass has
40:08
Speaker 2: set the standard there and sets an expectation for what
40:12
Speaker 2: tournament golf should look like down the closing stretch. And
40:15
Speaker 2: if seventeen and eighteen are kind of sleeper holes, I'm
40:20
Speaker 2: not as inclined. I wouldn't be as inclined to put
40:22
Speaker 2: a championship there.
40:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Southern Hills does this really well to
40:29
Speaker 1: name that Golden Age a traditional golf course that really
40:32
Speaker 1: nails its closing stretch. So it's not just modern or
40:36
Speaker 1: manufactured courses that can do this. Also, some more naturalistic
40:40
Speaker 1: courses can achieve this dynamic. But certainly, if you are,
40:44
Speaker 1: as you say, building it for the purpose of a championship,
40:47
Speaker 1: then yes, you've got to nail those last few holes,
40:49
Speaker 1: because the benefits of that are so obvious. Whenever you
40:52
Speaker 1: see a player's championship and the way that closing stretch
40:56
Speaker 1: just always feels there's something about it that is just different.
41:01
Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's so clever. This is
41:04
Speaker 1: the stadium course, right, but the true stadium at the
41:07
Speaker 1: stadium golf course is the second shot on sixteen, the
41:12
Speaker 1: T shot on seventeen, and the T shot on eighteen,
41:15
Speaker 1: and those are all in this same kind of amphitheater rights.
41:19
Speaker 1: That's where the closing stretch really unfolds. And there's this
41:24
Speaker 1: kind of cinematic feel about it because yet you can
41:26
Speaker 1: see across to the as soon as you walk up
41:29
Speaker 1: to the sixteenth green, you can't help but look at
41:32
Speaker 1: the seventeenth green and the eighteenth t and think, I've
41:36
Speaker 1: got to hit those golf shots now, I've got to
41:38
Speaker 1: make that happen. And it's just wonderful, I mean cool.
41:43
Speaker 1: It's so it's so familiar to us now that I
41:44
Speaker 1: think we lose perspective on how great it is, but
41:47
Speaker 1: it is. It is truly great. My last point, my
41:50
Speaker 1: last thing that I love about TPC Sawgrass is what
41:53
Speaker 1: we've been talking about so far here, and that is
41:56
Speaker 1: the centering of the fan experience. The way that the
42:00
Speaker 1: stadium was constructed you know, Dean Beaman, the commissioner of
42:04
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour, gave Pete Die a job to do
42:08
Speaker 1: with the stadium course, and that was to build, you know,
42:12
Speaker 1: this great fan centric golf stadium and two of his ideas.
42:18
Speaker 1: Two ideas that Beaman introduced were that one, the spectator
42:22
Speaker 1: areas would be higher than the playing surfaces, so you
42:25
Speaker 1: kind of build up these structures along the sides of
42:29
Speaker 1: the fairway and the playing areas would be lower. The
42:33
Speaker 1: greens as well as the fairways would be lower so
42:35
Speaker 1: that the fans could sit above the players, just as
42:39
Speaker 1: they do at a football stadium or a basketball stadium.
42:41
Speaker 1: And his second idea was very clever and very sophisticated.
42:48
Speaker 1: He wanted a routing that created hubs of activity or
42:51
Speaker 1: these gathering points where multiple holes would converge and fans
42:56
Speaker 1: could congregate. This is something that Augusta Nast has that
43:00
Speaker 1: that we often talk about these these points on the
43:03
Speaker 1: property where you can sit in one place and watch
43:06
Speaker 1: action on multiple different holes at once. And that's something
43:10
Speaker 1: that Dean Beaman wanted out of Pete Dye's designed at
43:13
Speaker 1: TPC Sagras, and that Die delivered in a number of
43:17
Speaker 1: different ways, and so I think that the way that
43:20
Speaker 1: that Die went about designing the spectator areas as well
43:23
Speaker 1: as the golf elements of TPC Sagas was extremely successful,
43:29
Speaker 1: and you know, to start to push into some of
43:33
Speaker 1: our complaints about TPC Sagras, I think it is a
43:36
Speaker 1: shame that the PGA Tour has decided to eliminate some
43:40
Speaker 1: of the original grass bleachers that that TPC Sagas had
43:45
Speaker 1: and to take away a lot of the original vantage
43:49
Speaker 1: points that Die created. There used to be this huge
43:53
Speaker 1: embankment in the middle of the lake between the sixth
43:57
Speaker 1: and seventh holes that used to be a moat, right
43:59
Speaker 1: that was that was the first that was the first
44:01
Speaker 1: PGA Tour's first moat. But now it's just a big lake.
44:06
Speaker 1: But in the middle of that lake originally was this
44:10
Speaker 1: massive set of grass bleachers where you could walk in
44:14
Speaker 1: there and just watch what was going on on the
44:17
Speaker 1: sixth and seventh holes. They took that away. I'm not
44:20
Speaker 1: exactly sure why. Maybe they thought spectator flow would be
44:24
Speaker 1: better if they if there wasn't this kind of you know,
44:27
Speaker 1: I guess walking out onto a peninsula maybe creates a
44:30
Speaker 1: bit of a choke point, and maybe The logic was
44:32
Speaker 1: similar in taking away the peninsula that used to jut
44:35
Speaker 1: into the lake where the seventeenth green is. There used
44:38
Speaker 1: to be this big you know, isthmus is that if
44:41
Speaker 1: that's the right way to I don't know if that's
44:44
Speaker 1: the right way to pronounce the word. It's one of
44:45
Speaker 1: those words I've only seen in print. But there used
44:47
Speaker 1: to be this big structure that went into the lake
44:50
Speaker 1: and where you could sit and watch everything on the sixteenth, seventeenth,
44:53
Speaker 1: and eighteenth holes, and they took that away as well.
44:56
Speaker 1: It seems to me that some of the kind of
44:58
Speaker 1: democratic nature of TPC Sawgrass that originally was there, the
45:03
Speaker 1: kind of spectator centered nature of the course has been
45:06
Speaker 1: taken away because the PGA Tour has decided to eliminate
45:11
Speaker 1: some of these really neat looking spectator areas that used
45:15
Speaker 1: to be there. So that's one criticism that has related
45:20
Speaker 1: to something that I really like about TPC Sawgrass, and
45:22
Speaker 1: that is that it is an exceptional spectator venue by design.
45:28
Speaker 2: I guess I can go into my negative which kind
45:30
Speaker 2: of parlays off of that. Yeah, I think all the
45:34
Speaker 2: best championships and the best golf courses do everything in
45:40
Speaker 2: mind with maximizing the golf and are unwilling to compromise
45:43
Speaker 2: on that. And Augusta Nationals a great example of that, right,
45:48
Speaker 2: Like you don't have including at other venues like this
45:53
Speaker 2: was pretty clear at Pinehurst last year at the US Open,
45:57
Speaker 2: Like you don't have a lot of concession stamp and
46:00
Speaker 2: things that interfere with the action. I understand that you
46:04
Speaker 2: need grand stands and their logistical considerations, but the best
46:10
Speaker 2: championships don't compromise on that. And I think TPC Sawgrass
46:16
Speaker 2: Pete Dye would not have been the type of person
46:18
Speaker 2: who would have been willing to compromise on the golf
46:20
Speaker 2: at the you know, for the sake of some of
46:23
Speaker 2: these ulterior motives. To me, the move back to March
46:27
Speaker 2: represents that the PGA Tour, right, this championship was in March,
46:31
Speaker 2: and then it moved to May, and then now it's
46:34
Speaker 2: back in March, and you lose a lot of the
46:37
Speaker 2: firmness of the golf course for the sake of displaying
46:41
Speaker 2: the golf course more green and making it look more
46:45
Speaker 2: visually appealing on TV at the expense of the shot value.
46:48
Speaker 2: We've already talked about multiple times on this podcast. Why
46:52
Speaker 2: certain shots benefit from firm conditions. Pete die explicitly and
46:57
Speaker 2: bury me in a pot bunker. He says, while I
47:00
Speaker 2: don't have anything to say about the highly manicured condition
47:02
Speaker 2: of the golf course these days, I do believe the
47:05
Speaker 2: rustic nature of the stadium course has been lost over
47:07
Speaker 2: the years, which has lessened its demanding design features. And
47:11
Speaker 2: he explicitly says that the golf course was originally designed
47:15
Speaker 2: to play firm. And we had Gary Young of the
47:20
Speaker 2: PGA Tour, who's chief referee, very involved in setup on
47:24
Speaker 2: the Frida Egg Pod last year, and he explicitly said
47:26
Speaker 2: that the move to March is much more visually appealing,
47:29
Speaker 2: while understanding that you lose some of the firm and
47:33
Speaker 2: fast nature of the golf course. So to me, like
47:35
Speaker 2: my biggest gripe with TPC Sawgrass is in the Players
47:39
Speaker 2: Championship in particular, is that it's not playing the way
47:42
Speaker 2: that it should play. And I hope it's obvious from
47:45
Speaker 2: this conversation why firmness is additive to this championship. To me,
47:49
Speaker 2: the move to March is a mistake when you add
47:53
Speaker 2: in that major championship venues get a little harder for
47:57
Speaker 2: the PGA as well in May to you know, you're
48:02
Speaker 2: kind of restricted and where parts of the country you
48:04
Speaker 2: can go like that might have made more sense in August,
48:06
Speaker 2: like the old schedule might have made a little bit
48:09
Speaker 2: more sense. And certainly I think TPC Sawgrass makes more
48:12
Speaker 2: sense in May than in March.
48:14
Speaker 1: There was the move to March, and then there has
48:17
Speaker 1: also been the the explicit intention of the PGA Tour
48:25
Speaker 1: to make TPC Sawgrass look more like Augusta National. The
48:30
Speaker 1: way the course is presented now is so Augusta cosplay.
48:37
Speaker 1: It's never going to be Augusta National. But the PGA
48:41
Speaker 1: Tour kind of wants to move it in that direction,
48:43
Speaker 1: and that is completely contrary to what Pete Die would
48:47
Speaker 1: have wanted. Now. Pete Die was certainly alive long enough
48:51
Speaker 1: and advising at TPC Sawgrass long enough to see this
48:55
Speaker 1: transformation of the course from its original rustic appearance to
49:01
Speaker 1: what it is now. Very green, verdant, probably softer and
49:05
Speaker 1: more water than it should be with the you know,
49:09
Speaker 1: just with the flowers, and you know, overseed, the overseed,
49:15
Speaker 1: which might be might be necessary if you're going to
49:17
Speaker 1: have the championship in March. But listen, I mean agronomy
49:21
Speaker 1: has advanced so far these days that they're there have
49:24
Speaker 1: to have been some other options. Something clicked for me
49:28
Speaker 1: when I looked at some photos and some footage of
49:32
Speaker 1: TPC Sawgrass in its early days and the early and
49:35
Speaker 1: mid eighties, and that's the TPC Sawgrass originally was very
49:41
Speaker 1: Pinehurst Number two, like very I think that's an underdiscussed
49:47
Speaker 1: influence of both Pete Dies and of TPC Sawgrasses. If
49:51
Speaker 1: you look at those original greens at TPC Sawgrass too,
49:53
Speaker 1: they are much more domed than they are now. They're
49:57
Speaker 1: very pine and I still think they have some of
49:59
Speaker 1: that care characteristic, but they've softened that over the years
50:02
Speaker 1: as well. In fact, they started to soften it in
50:04
Speaker 1: like nineteen eighty three, after the first couple of players
50:07
Speaker 1: championships at TPC Sagras. The players were like, Okay, we've
50:10
Speaker 1: got to tamp this down a little bit. But the
50:15
Speaker 1: initial greens that Die built at TPC Sawgrass very much
50:19
Speaker 1: had a Pinehurst style to them, and I think the
50:22
Speaker 1: entire presentation of the course back then, the way the
50:25
Speaker 1: waste areas were now the waste areas are just big
50:28
Speaker 1: long white bunkers. Originally they looked pinehursty and I think
50:35
Speaker 1: that that was a reference point for Pete Dye, who
50:38
Speaker 1: was very familiar with Pinehurst number two. It was one
50:41
Speaker 1: of his favorite courses and one of the courses that
50:43
Speaker 1: he played and visited the most. I think Pinehurst number
50:47
Speaker 1: two was kind of that reference point for TPC Sawgrass,
50:50
Speaker 1: not Augusta National. In many ways, Pinehurst number two is
50:53
Speaker 1: kind of the anti Augusta National among championship venues. And
51:00
Speaker 1: what I believed I wanted was for TPC Sawgrass to
51:04
Speaker 1: be much more toward the Pinehurst end of the spectrum.
51:07
Speaker 1: The PGA Tour over the last forty years has moved
51:11
Speaker 1: TPC Sawgrass decisively toward the Augusta National end of the spectrum,
51:15
Speaker 1: and I think that is a betrayal of the original
51:19
Speaker 1: intention of the course and a good representation of how
51:23
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour has changed over the years. If you
51:25
Speaker 1: think about the original design of TPC Sawgrass and its
51:31
Speaker 1: original intentions as supplied by Dean Beeman and Pete Die,
51:37
Speaker 1: it was to create this gnarly difficult course that was
51:43
Speaker 1: spectator centric and that was player defiant. They wanted players
51:49
Speaker 1: to suffer, and they wanted the spectators to watch and
51:53
Speaker 1: have a good time, and it's hard to imagine how
52:00
Speaker 1: much the mindset of the PGA Tour has changed since then.
52:04
Speaker 1: You would never see the PGA Tour these days prioritize
52:09
Speaker 1: spectator pleasure over player convenience. But that's exactly what the
52:14
Speaker 1: original conception of TPC Sawgrass was and the way that
52:19
Speaker 1: the course has changed over the years represents the PGA
52:22
Speaker 1: Tour's change in mindset. It's move toward the players and
52:28
Speaker 1: away from the fan. And I think it's still a
52:31
Speaker 1: great golf course. It is still a brilliant golf course,
52:35
Speaker 1: but that's in spite of and not because of the
52:38
Speaker 1: changes that the PGA Tour has made to it. The
52:41
Speaker 1: fact that TPC Sawgrass is still great is a testament
52:44
Speaker 1: to how good it was originally. But the PGA Tour
52:47
Speaker 1: has done its best to make it not as great anymore,
52:51
Speaker 1: and that is a bummer.
52:53
Speaker 2: There's so much there. I mean, I think the only
52:56
Speaker 2: pushback on the augustification is that Augusta still plays firm,
53:00
Speaker 2: So you're like, right, Sawgrass.
53:02
Speaker 1: They figure it out there. I mean, it's through high
53:04
Speaker 1: technology and everything.
53:05
Speaker 2: Understood, but they're not sacrificing on the way the golf
53:08
Speaker 2: course is supposed to be played versus sawgrass in greenifying
53:12
Speaker 2: itself or whatever verb you want to use, is sacrificing
53:15
Speaker 2: explicitly on the firmness. There's more rain in March than
53:18
Speaker 2: there is in May, like it's going to play softer
53:22
Speaker 2: so much so much there that to go in to
53:24
Speaker 2: a lot of directions. I think one thing that's interesting
53:27
Speaker 2: and reading bear me in a pop Punker is seeing
53:29
Speaker 2: Tom Kite's comments in nineteen ninety four where he blasts
53:33
Speaker 2: the setup and says that they've gotten too easy. He
53:36
Speaker 2: talks about tournament officials being in love with the color
53:39
Speaker 2: green and lamenting the deterioration of the test, which is
53:44
Speaker 2: just an interesting example of the direction that professional golf
53:49
Speaker 2: started to go, and some of the conversations that we
53:52
Speaker 2: have now, Like we were upset with the way the
53:53
Speaker 2: Honda Classic and now the Cognizant Classic played this year
53:57
Speaker 2: and last year with all the overseed and how much
54:00
Speaker 2: they've neutered that golf course, trying to get more players
54:03
Speaker 2: to show up and not get beaten up by the
54:05
Speaker 2: golf course. Like some of these conversations have been happening
54:08
Speaker 2: since the late eighties, in the early nineties and That's
54:11
Speaker 2: what's fascinating to me about TBC Sawgrass is it really
54:14
Speaker 2: does tell the story of professional golf, both from a
54:18
Speaker 2: pure golf standpoint, but also from some of the other
54:20
Speaker 2: considerations of the PGA Tour. Like Garrett, they would pace
54:24
Speaker 2: of play is unfortunately a relevant part of this conversation,
54:28
Speaker 2: where some of the decisions they make with setup. If
54:33
Speaker 2: the golf course played a lot firmer and faster and
54:35
Speaker 2: windier like they wouldn't get done the first two rounds
54:38
Speaker 2: in the first two days like they'd be playing on
54:41
Speaker 2: Saturday morning every time. Now you have a little more
54:43
Speaker 2: see it.
54:44
Speaker 1: Whenever there's foul weather at the Players' Championship, they don't finish.
54:47
Speaker 2: You have a little more daylight in May, right, which
54:49
Speaker 2: is another reason to move it to that date. But
54:53
Speaker 2: it's a practical consideration that unfortunately compromises on the golf course.
54:58
Speaker 2: We'll see what they do with the bumpers this year
55:00
Speaker 2: on seventeen, where they grew up these thick collars for
55:03
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four tournament. That's stopping balls from going
55:06
Speaker 2: in the water, completely antithetical to the way he died.
55:09
Speaker 2: Never should play, He would never, But again I think
55:12
Speaker 2: the tour would say part of that is for pace
55:15
Speaker 2: of play. If we have a bunch of shots going
55:17
Speaker 2: in the water, then.
55:18
Speaker 1: The players are going to call over the officials and
55:20
Speaker 1: be like, can I drop it here?
55:21
Speaker 2: Can I d take it's going to take twenty minutes.
55:24
Speaker 2: So it's cool that, both for positive and negative reasons,
55:28
Speaker 2: that Sagas really does tell the story of professional golf.
55:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that's a good place to wrap up. Joseph,
55:34
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on the pod. This
55:36
Speaker 1: was a fun conversation and looking forward to the Players Championship,
55:39
Speaker 1: and I hope we've given people an idea of why
55:42
Speaker 1: we really love TPC Sawgrass, even if it looks different
55:46
Speaker 1: and plays different from a lot of the courses that
55:48
Speaker 1: we normally praise on fridayg Golf. This is a fascinating
55:53
Speaker 1: and important golf course and it was very fun to
55:55
Speaker 1: talk about it with you.
55:57
Speaker 2: Thanks Kerrett, thanks for having me.
56:11
Speaker 1: This episode of Designing Golf was produced by PJ Clark.
56:15
Speaker 1: Thank you, PJ. If you enjoy this kind of deep
56:19
Speaker 1: dive that Joseph and I just did into a particular
56:22
Speaker 1: golf course, I can guarantee that you would really love
56:26
Speaker 1: the content. That we do in Club TFE on a
56:29
Speaker 1: weekly basis. We publish extensive course profiles about golf courses
56:34
Speaker 1: that we really love and in some cases golf courses
56:37
Speaker 1: that we don't like that much, and those discussions can
56:39
Speaker 1: be equally interesting. But we're building what we think is
56:43
Speaker 1: a really strong and fun community in Club TFE around
56:48
Speaker 1: this kind of content and this discussion of golf course
56:52
Speaker 1: architecture as well as golf in general, and we would
56:56
Speaker 1: really like you to join that community. So go to
56:59
Speaker 1: the Friday dot com slash membership and see what CLUBTFE
57:03
Speaker 1: is all about. Thank you for listening to Designing Golf,
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Speaker 1: give us a rating and review if you feel like it,
57:09
Speaker 1: and we'll see you again soon for another episode