Latest / Millennial Mustard Seed / S5 136. Dr. Max Botner – Authority over the Sea & Spirits vs Ghosts

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S5 136. Dr. Max Botner – Authority over the Sea & Spirits vs Ghosts · Millennial Mustard Seed

0:01
Hello folks, this is Princess. You are listening to the
0:04
Millennial Mustard. Seed Podcast, thanks for
0:07
listening. Don't forget to share with your
0:09
friends. That's tough.
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We're in a very tough spot. I think that what we're doing
0:15
right now is a great benefit and virtue because it's an end
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around between this whole corrupt informational system
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media system. We claim to believe in a God who
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spoke the universe into existence and literally raised
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himself from the dead. And yet we're not going to
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believe that anything else exists in the spirit realm, even
0:37
though his word tells us that they do.
0:40
Their bodies weren't permitted to go to sleep like humans do,
0:44
and they weren't permitted to go to heaven, so they wander the
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earth. You know, I've seen the.
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Eyes turn black to unknown tongues being spoken.
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These giants would love way up in the island, the young Braves.
0:58
The young men would hide up in the trees and wait for one of
1:01
these 12 footers to come walking down the bath and they would
1:04
jump on them and kill them, drag them back to the village, and
1:08
the village would feast on the body freedom.
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Then people start to get weapons, they start to get
1:17
armor, they start to build cities, they start to fortify
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their cities. Now God looks down and there's
1:22
violence everywhere. The battle, this war that we are
1:26
at, is not against each other. It's against these
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principalities and these rulers and these archons in the high
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places. It's really worthwhile to read
1:34
the Bible. Yourself.
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Fear is one of the primary drivers of mind control because
1:40
we have to take every thought captive and resist fear.
1:47
You're going to have a testimony that is a justice case against
1:52
the Kingdom of darkness. Welcome back to the Millennium
2:19
Mustard Seed. I'm the host, Rod.
2:21
I got a cool episode in the store for you guys.
2:23
I'm joined by Doctor Max Botner. We have a fascinating
2:26
conversation. He's a first time guest.
2:28
We get into his testimony to start out and it progresses
2:33
quickly into some strange questions that I have.
2:36
We cover Christ's authority over the sea, and then we get into
2:41
topics like spirits and ghosts and what does the Bible have to
2:46
say about it. We get into some root words
2:49
regarding language being used in the New and the Old Testament.
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There's some really fascinating connections.
2:55
Not anything brand new to the podcast, but it's just really
2:59
cool to see a guy who has the heart posture like Doctor Max
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slow down and just thoroughly go through this stuff with us.
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Much of this information I've learned in personal studies over
3:11
the years, just grabbing the word of God and diving in for
3:14
myself. But it's really important to me
3:17
in humility and to be teachable. And, you know, the doctorates
3:21
who went out before us to lay these foundations, you know,
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Doctor Max right now diving into this, not protecting anybody
3:29
from the Bible. He says, let's see where the
3:31
Scripture goes. And then also, how could I
3:33
forget about legendary guys like the late Doctor Michael Heizer
3:38
and especially the late Doctor Chuck Missler?
3:43
These guys have really helped to not protect you from your Bible,
3:47
to understand threads and language.
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I found this to be a really fun, encouraging, strange and
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exciting episode. A part one with Doctor Max
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Looking forward to his return in the near future.
4:01
But for right now I need you guys to like, share, subscribe.
4:04
You can find details on the show notes.
4:06
We are in a season of need. We do need you guys to help us
4:10
by praying, by donating, by lifting us up.
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God is calling us. Things look uncertain right now
4:15
as they have looked for quite some time.
4:17
But we are trusting and putting 1 foot in front of the other.
4:20
You can find a link to my newest book.
4:22
The words are saw in the details of the show notes as well.
4:25
I play a song at the end of the episode by BHB it is called
4:30
Where would I be? It is dope.
4:32
You guys will definitely enjoy this one.
4:36
I think it's about time to jump into this episode.
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I'm ready. Are you guys ready?
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Let's go, let's go. Everybody, welcome to the
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Millennial Mustard Seed podcast. I am Doctor Max Botner, thrilled
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to be on today and to talk a little about my faith and just
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talk about Jesus and Scripture and what it means to follow Him.
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Doctor Max, it is an honor to be here with you, man.
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I really appreciate you taking the time.
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I can't wait to get into our conversation tonight.
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Yeah. Thanks, Rod.
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It's great to be on with you. Yeah, so I stumbled across here
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on social media and what you were preaching on, I forget what
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the clip was, but there was an anointing on it.
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I want you to introduce yourself for my audience.
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They're they're probably not going to know who you are.
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Just making that assumption. I could be wrong.
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I think it's a fair assumption. Only a fair assumption.
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Just tell us a little bit about yourself share like that, you
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know 30,000 foot view of your testimony.
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Tell us what exactly it is that you do.
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Yeah, great. So yeah, thanks again for having
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me on I so I didn't grow up in a Christian home.
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I was born into a secular Jewish Home in Canada, Montreal,
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Canada. Parents got divorced at a pretty
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early age and that's how they landed up back in the States
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because my mom was AUS citizen. And so we just kind of, we moved
6:15
actually from coast to coast, so Florida, and then this was back
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in the 90s after Hurricane Andrew, we moved across the
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country to California and ended up in the Sacramento area.
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And I, again, my parents were kind of into different sort of
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spirituality stuff. So I, I was exposed to a lot of,
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I guess you could call it kind of new age stuff.
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I don't know if that's still a term people are using much
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today, but that's kind of what what they called it back in the
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90s. But my mom had a Christian
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background. So that's sort of my was my
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first introduction to the church was just, I think the Lord
6:55
really got a hold of her heart. And I saw a season of just God
7:00
pouring out his love on her. And it changed her in certain
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ways. So that kind of made me curious
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as a kid because I saw a different side of my mom that I
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hadn't seen before. And so eventually I was in a
7:11
church service. Actually, our friends had
7:14
invited us. I was 10 years old.
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And the only thing I really still remember about that night
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was just God's overwhelming love just sort of enfolded me.
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And I knew at that moment, man, Jesus is Lord, I want to give my
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life to Jesus. So that was sort of the start of
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it for me. I had no idea what I was doing,
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really, what I was getting into. And yeah, from there, just kind
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of, it was difficult. I was really into sports, really
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into a lot of other stuff. So I bounced around a lot.
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We never really got rooted in church.
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Honestly, man, it wasn't until college and having a college
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pastor that really poured into me that I first started becoming
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really interested in my faith and scripture.
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And at that time, I was starting to see fruit of what God could
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do in your life if you really submitted to him, right?
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If I said, OK, Jesus actually means what he says and he's
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Lord, His Spirit dwells within me.
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So, you know, what does that look like?
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And I began to make, you know, make changes in my life and see
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God working in my life. And that got me super excited
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about my faith. So that put me on the track of
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I, I transferred into a different college 'cause I
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wanted to take some Bible classes.
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It's actually the college that I now teach at as a professor,
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Jessup University in the Sacramento area.
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And from there, I just, I kept going on with more school
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because I was so passionate about Scripture and I thought I
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was either going to be a pastor or maybe a professor, but I
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wasn't really sure. So I was kind of trying
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everything and the Lord sort of just confirmed each step along
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the way that I was. I think I'm more of a skill set
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for kind of a teaching ministry within an academic setting,
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Although I really do enjoy preaching in church and, and
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doing ministerial stuff here and there.
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But kind of with the way I'm wired, I'm sort of wired for
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academia. I love the kind of heady stuff
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and that's just something I've enjoyed a lot.
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So right now that's what I do. I'm a, I'm a New Testament
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professor at a college. I've taught at a seminary
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before. I've studied and worked in the
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UK and Germany, various parts of the country.
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So yeah, it's, it's been quite the journey and I'm still
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enjoying it. There's the, you know, God is,
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is, is infinite and unending. So there's always more to
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discover. And his word is so deep and so
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multifaceted that you can never really exhaust the study of
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Scripture either. So it gives me a lot to enjoy.
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It gives me a lot to do on a daily basis.
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Yeah. Wow, Very well said.
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Me and Doctor Laura Sanger actually talk about quite
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frequently that the word of God is inexhaustible.
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So I'd love to hear you say that.
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Yeah. Now let's kind of jump in into a
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couple questions as as we warm up to, you know, some of the
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information I sent you, I wanted to talk with you about.
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You grew up having kind of like this understanding of like this
10:11
fringe or Mystic stuff going on around you.
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Did that help with your faith or was that like a wrestling match?
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Like, no, these worlds don't collide.
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Could you help us understand that?
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A. Little bit, yeah, that's a great
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question. I think that in some ways my
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background has made me a little bit more open minded to
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different things and comfortable with people having different
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perspectives than I do. Because, you know, Jewish
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family, very open kind of in terms of different beliefs, the
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whole kind of spirituality stuff that I was exposed to a lot of
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different stuff, a lot of stuff that none of my friends would
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have, you know, experienced. So it, I think it did make me
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more open to certain facets, maybe even of Christianity.
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And I think it also helps me understand other people better
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too, and talk to people who maybe are coming from different
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parts of life. You know, I, I, I kind of get
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what it feels like to be in church and not be a Christian
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'cause that was kind of my life experience.
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So I, I, I sometimes find that in a weird way, I sometimes
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connect better with people who aren't Christians and who are
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depending on the context. So yeah, I think that's that's a
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little bit what I would say to that.
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It reminds me the late Doctor Michael Heiser, he said it was
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easier to go to a UFO conference and preach the gospel than it
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was to actually try to get Christians to understand the
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ancient cultural context of the Bible.
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Yeah, yeah, very much. And what?
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Doctor, it's true. Yeah, Doctor Heiser did a great
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job connecting people, Christians who maybe haven't,
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you know, not for lack of want, but just haven't had the
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exposure to some of what you'd get in a academic setting, you
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know, where you're studying the Bible really intensely in its
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historical context. He did such a great job of
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saying, you know, I'm kind of gonna go where the text is gonna
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go and, and, and showing people that it can actually make a
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difference for how you read the text too, that it's not just
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like, you know, just esoteric or, you know, kind of arbitrary
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stuff. But actually, hey, this could
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help you really understand the Bible better.
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Such a great job with that. So.
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Yeah. What exactly do you teach?
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What is your expertise, if you will?
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Let's dive into that real quick. Sure.
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Yeah. So my dissertation, which is
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kind of what you write to get your PhD, it's it was published
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as a book. Now it's on the Gospel of Mark
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and Messianism. So the ideas of various Jewish
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messiahs and how Jesus sort of fits within that picture.
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So that, that was really fascinating to me because I
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realized somewhere on in my master's degree that basically
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everything that is said about Jesus in the New Testament
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relates in one way or another to the Old Testament.
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So if I want to understand what, what the authors are saying to
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us about Jesus, I really need to track along with the Old
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Testament. There's a, a great New Testament
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scholar by the name of Richard Bockham, who says something
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along the lines of, you know, there's nothing communicated
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about Jesus in the New Testament that it's, it's all what he
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calls like Jewish exegesis. So in other words, people don't
13:30
write down like Jesus is God in this way.
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They show you how Jesus is like Yahweh, right?
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It's a different way of doing it.
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But when I realized that, I just got so hooked and fascinated by
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the way the New Testament authors write about Jesus and
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that it's all really a kind of form of ancient Jewish
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interpretation of the of the Bible, what we call the Old
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Testament, that really got me hooked.
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And that's remained something that I'm really, really
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interested in. I do.
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So I do stuff in gospels. I've done a little bit here and
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there with, with Paul, but I wouldn't say that's my like my,
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my expertise is been more gospel so far.
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Christology, messianism. I'm really interested in
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sacrifice. That's something that I've been
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exploring more recently and probably going to write a book
14:22
on that coming up. So yeah, that's a little bit
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about about me, what I do. How many years have you been
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teaching? Let's see.
14:30
Yeah, great question. So I am in, is it my 7th year?
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I think I'm going into my 7th year full time teaching.
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I did some adjunct work before that, but I was at at a
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seminary, teaching at a seminary in Michigan.
14:47
So it's like a school for pastors.
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People were training to be pastors, taught Greek, Greek
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exegesis courses there. And then I moved back to
14:57
California two years ago and I've been teaching
15:01
undergraduates now. So I teach Bible, a lot of Bible
15:06
interpretation classes, giving people the tools to read
15:09
scripture well and then some, some other kind of upper
15:13
division classes on different books within the Bible.
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So I'm in a, it's a Christian university, so all, all the
15:20
students get a Bible minor. So I I work with a lot of
15:23
students that are non Bible majors now.
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The reason I asked you to come on here is I wanted to talk
15:28
about Christ's authority over the darkness, right over the
15:32
fiery arrows that get shot by day, over the demoniac.
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And you know, we're living in a day and age where fear is a
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tactic. A lot of people are engulfed in
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fear. We see a lot of panic decision
15:43
making. And the Bible tells us do not be
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afraid. Do not fear.
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We go through this whole thing. You know, I had Doctor Mike
15:48
Davis on recently. We do the emotional
15:50
intelligence, you know, we're talking about in the Old
15:53
Testament where God is giving us this remedy.
15:55
Do not let my law leave your mouth and I and you know, and
16:00
he's saying to Joshua, I will be with you like I was with Moses.
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So we we have been going through the word and finding these
16:05
connections where it's like this is for us.
16:08
This is for this generation to just to reiterate that Christ is
16:12
who he says he is. But what I want you to hone in
16:14
on and warm up as you see fit, Doctor Max.
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But I want to talk about Christ's authority and
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specifically he's rebuking a storm.
16:24
He he calms the storm, He's walking on the water and
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wherever you'd like to go from there.
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I trust the flow of the Ruach, so take it from there.
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Sounds good. Yes, we'll let it go Yeah.
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And do feel free to jump in too to make sure that we're hitting
16:37
what you like. But I love what you said there
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and I I guess I would just start by saying I think it's so
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critical that we don't live in a fear based way.
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And I mean, more than just personal anxieties about
16:52
uncertainties, which I think is a big deal.
16:54
I mean, we're facing very uncertain time.
16:56
There's a lot of upheaval currently going on, disruptions
17:01
in various industries, which creates more of that just got
17:05
out of a global pandemic. So I mean, there's a lot of
17:08
things that obviously have put that on our horizons.
17:11
And in some ways the modern world has kind of inculcated us
17:15
from that sense of death being ever present.
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And so when we get that, that taste of death being present,
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something that the ancients knew well, much more intimately than
17:26
we do in many ways, that can lead to kind of fear.
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I think that one of the big challenges for us with fear is
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that it can lead to self preservation.
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When I'm afraid, I, I, I look out for myself, you know, like I
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got to get my bag, I got to take care of myself, make sure my
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retirement account is set, make sure I have, you know, what I
17:45
need to survive. And what's that mentality is
17:50
basically antithetical to the life Jesus calls his disciples
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into, right? So we can't, you, you can't
17:56
follow Jesus with a fear based mentality, right 'cause if
18:00
you're, you're making calculations in that way geared
18:03
towards self preservation, it's basically antithetical to the
18:07
way of the cross, right? So I think it's, it's important
18:11
that we, that we discuss, you know, fear.
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And, and then the other thing I'll say before we get into the
18:17
storm thing, 'cause you brought up the you, you referenced the
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spiritual warfare text in Ephesians 6.
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And Ephesians is a book that I've actually been teaching
18:28
quite a bit on. I've done some publications on
18:31
it. It's a, it's probably, if not my
18:34
favorite, one of my favorite letters of Paul because I think
18:38
it just, it has such a beautiful holistic picture of the gospel.
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And one of the things that I that hit me with Ephesians as I
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was reading it through over and over as a whole letter.
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I think it's not accidental that that spiritual warfare section
18:54
comes at the end of the letter because I actually think the
18:57
whole letter in a way is about spiritual warfare.
19:02
Paul begins actually by this statement that Jesus has been
19:06
raised up in the in the heavens and he's seated above the powers
19:09
of rulers and principalities. We can get into those if you
19:13
like, these entities, these dark entities.
19:15
In some cases, you know, some of them are hostile.
19:19
So you have Christ in kind of like the victory seat to begin
19:22
the letter. And then the letter is about God
19:25
creating this unity in one new humanity of all these broken
19:31
people who were formerly divided now being brought together in
19:34
Christ. And that, he says, is a like,
19:39
it's like a sign or a monument to the rulers, these
19:43
principalities that Jesus has won the victory.
19:46
So it's it's interesting to me when I think about spiritual
19:49
warfare now, one of the things that I always emphasize first is
19:52
that it's actually a daily thing that we face as Christians and
19:57
the primary terrain on which we fight.
19:59
Spiritual warfare is just the daily battle of the mundane love
20:03
loving one another well in Christ.
20:06
That's the that's the main like kind of thing we, we, we do
20:10
because the the enemy wants to tear us apart, wants to tear us
20:14
down. And the sign of Christ's victory
20:19
is a flourishing people who are united in his name.
20:22
So doing things that we don't often think of in terms of
20:26
spiritual warfare, loving my neighbor as myself, watching the
20:30
way I speak daily, seeking to edify others and use my gifts.
20:35
Those are actually all part of what I think is what Paul sees
20:40
as the daily kind of spiritual warfare battle.
20:43
And then in that, in the spiritual warfare text in
20:46
Ephesians 6, those are all plural commands.
20:49
So it's you stand kind of together as one.
20:52
It's the picture of the body collective as an as the as the
20:58
the Roman soldier, or I mean, he's using imagery from Roman
21:02
infantry, but also from Isaiah. These are texts from Isaiah that
21:05
he's drawing on. And it's like the body standing
21:09
collectively together in this defensive posture.
21:12
So spiritual warfare is also something we have to do
21:15
together. And I think one of the things
21:17
that is challenging in our modern world is we're so we're
21:21
so divided, we're so isolated that we often lose when we're
21:26
individually fighting our battles and we don't have other
21:28
people around us. So that's something I just
21:31
wanted to emphasize because it's not always something that gets
21:33
highlighted, you know, with with these conversations in terms of
21:40
Jesus exercising his authority over the the sea.
21:45
That's a really pregnant text that we have in the Gospel
21:48
tradition. There's there's a couple
21:52
different texts where where Jesus exercises his authority
21:55
over the sea. But we just look for example at
21:57
the one in, in Mark chapter 4, right?
22:01
It's like 431 through 35 or something like that.
22:05
In that, that text, you have the sea coming up against the boat,
22:11
crashing up against the boat. It's narrated in such a way as
22:15
to remind them that, you know, the sea is this kind of cosmic
22:19
force that is the thing that God needs to sort of still to make
22:24
life and flourishing possible for people.
22:27
And that's the thing that's sort of crashing down on them while
22:32
they're in the boat. And then there's this crisis
22:35
moment where they realize Jesus is sleeping.
22:38
And so it's like, you know, we've all had those experiences
22:42
in life, if we're being honest, I think where we maybe know
22:46
intellectually that God, Jesus is all powerful, but we're like,
22:50
where is it right now? Like, I don't see it right now.
22:52
I am in desperate need. Like sort of like the psalmists,
22:56
right? Like, where are you, right,
22:58
Where are you? And so we have that kind of
23:01
moment very similar to the Psalms, where the disciples cry
23:06
out to Jesus. Don't you care about us?
23:09
And then he emerges and the text says he actually rebukes the
23:14
wind and the waves. That's the same verb that's used
23:16
for, you know, rebuking an evil spirit.
23:18
So he silences this hostile force and everything is still.
23:24
And then he turns to his disciples, which is in some ways
23:27
he's also turning to us when we're hearing this text.
23:29
And it's like, you know, where's your, you know, where's your
23:32
faith kind of thing, or little faith.
23:34
And so it's kind of there's this challenge right to us as
23:37
disciples as well. But it's, it's a powerful text,
23:41
you know, and it's, it's in its original context.
23:44
This is speaking to Christians who are facing harsh
23:47
persecution, right? And they're thinking like, OK,
23:50
you know, the empire is bearing down on us, you know, is, is how
23:55
we believe Jesus is still in the throne.
23:57
But like, where is he is he is the Son of man returning on the
23:59
clouds. What's going to happen kind of
24:01
thing. Those are the questions that
24:02
they're wrestling with. So you can imagine how Mark
24:04
would be preached in a 1st century house church, you know,
24:07
but it still reigns true for us today because we still have
24:11
that, you know, those feelings of like the Lord of the
24:14
universe. Where are you right now?
24:16
Are you, are you still in control?
24:18
I want to believe, help my unbelief, you know, all that
24:20
kind of stuff. And, and the text just
24:23
powerfully demonstrates to us that, yeah, Jesus is Lord over,
24:28
over the chaos. He has the power to, you know,
24:32
to, to put that, put that down right.
24:35
And yeah, there's, there's other things we could get into, but
24:38
there's, there's really interesting, for example,
24:40
allusions to some of the Psalm texts and to Jonah where, you
24:44
know, you have people in the sea and it's the sea is whipped up
24:49
and people are crying out to God.
24:51
So it very powerfully demonstrates that Jesus is like
24:54
the embodiment of the God of Israel there with the people on
24:58
the boat. Like that's the power that he's
25:00
articulating. It's, it's the God of Israel's
25:02
power over the over the sea. I think that's kind of the the
25:06
gist of what's going. On very well said.
25:10
The couple of the highlights there, like when you were
25:12
setting up before going into depicting, you know, the sea
25:15
crashing up against the boat, for example, you had talked
25:19
about the spiritual warfare perspective and how we are to
25:23
be, you know, everything's multi layered in my opinion.
25:26
Like the way that I see things, it's not so simple.
25:28
So when spiritual warfare is being taught to us, the reality
25:32
of the spiritual battle that all of us are involved in, whether
25:36
we like to admit it or not, and the body being Christ's main
25:39
goal is for the body. It's not denominational
25:42
preference. It's not my building, your
25:44
building, East Coast, West Coast.
25:45
No, it's not. Jesus is looking at every member
25:49
of the body on this rock that we call home.
25:53
And so when we start to have that unified way of thinking
25:56
like the book of Acts, they said one likeness, one mind, one
25:59
spirit and that they were working in such a way that there
26:03
was an abundance. They were meeting each other's
26:05
needs. I think that that is just I
26:06
wanted to re highlight that again, just to plant another
26:09
seed in the listener's ear of how important that was.
26:13
And really you just got me excited and set up the rest of
26:16
this, you know, idea that God is sometimes what appears to be
26:22
sleeping. And not to prescribe this text
26:25
to somebody's situation, but the Bible's there for our teaching,
26:27
for our reproof, our correction, right?
26:30
And and so this is encouragement, but sometimes it
26:32
can appear like God. Are you sleeping on the boat?
26:34
And the the waves are crashing all around me.
26:39
And it's beautiful to know that the refiners fire the testing.
26:46
I believe everything is a test. Everything is a test.
26:49
My listeners know that I hammered this idea home from the
26:52
simplicity of the guy next door. It's a test.
26:54
Be careful, right walk the tight narrow and with what we had laid
27:00
down in the beginning of this episode, mentioning this day of
27:03
chaos that seems to be happening around us and some people do
27:07
feel like God, I've been crying out to you.
27:09
Where are you? You know, I, I don't didn't
27:12
really plan to mention this, but just for the sake of the
27:15
relevancy of it, because this is something I believe we have to
27:18
pay attention to Kanye West, one of the biggest quote UN quote,
27:23
Christian converts of our day and age, you know, and now he's
27:26
publicly coming out, people were celebrating, Oh, he's a
27:29
Christian. Listen to his album.
27:30
And in my spirit, I've been on record the whole time going
27:33
something's off. I don't I don't know about this.
27:35
Something's off, right? So I would just watch.
27:38
And now he's saying some really blast blasphemous things in the
27:42
sense of I'm not going to re quote him, but for most people
27:45
that are aware of what's going on out there, he's saying, I
27:48
pray to God. God didn't answer me.
27:50
So now I'm God. He's making crazy statements.
27:53
And it's like the condition of Christianity.
27:56
How many, you know, how many millions and millions of people
27:58
are going to hear what Kanye said versus thousands of people
28:01
that are going to hear what me and you say.
28:03
I think it's imperative that we actually take the position to be
28:07
accurate to what the Bible has to teach us, just as you did
28:11
with the boat scenario. So let's dive into just more of
28:14
the authority on Christ and I want you to keep building on man
28:17
you. We're really getting some
28:18
momentum. I was enjoying hearing you
28:20
speak, you know, just about the authority that Christ has and,
28:24
and, and how the Bible's connecting in other places about
28:27
these entities. The principalities, powers rule
28:31
as dominions. Take it from there, brother.
28:32
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah.
28:34
And, you know, just the one thing on, on, on Kanye too, or
28:37
maybe two things. You know, it's I, I haven't
28:41
really paid. I, I'm fairly not entirely
28:45
illiterate 'cause I mean, I have kids, but when it comes to pop
28:47
culture, I'm fairly like removed these days, right?
28:50
But I follow a little bit here and there.
28:52
And my, my sense with him too, is I, I think, you know, when
28:58
people are in the limelight and also struggling with mental
29:00
health issues, that can be a really complicated, you know,
29:03
scenario. And I'll just kind of leave it
29:05
at that. But I, I sense that there's,
29:06
there may be some of that going on.
29:08
And, and, and then the other thing I would just say too, and
29:11
you know, I think you'd probably agree with this is part of the
29:15
issue of our day and age is we're in the age of this, you
29:17
know, the celebrity and the, it's we, we just idolize our
29:23
celebrities, you know, it's called.
29:24
And that definitely seeps into the church as well, you know,
29:27
and, you know, and so there's just, it's just always good for
29:32
us to be mindful of what content we're taking in, who we're
29:35
allowing to influence us. Just because somebody has a big
29:38
platform or sounds really great doesn't necessarily mean that
29:42
they're a great, you know, a great influence or a great
29:45
teacher. We just have to be wise and
29:46
discerning, you know? And Jesus says that in Matthew
29:48
7, you'll know them by their fruit.
29:50
So, and that, that's part of why we have to be connected to each
29:54
other 'cause it's really hard to know the fruit of a person if
29:56
you're not living with them daily or, or around them.
30:00
You can, you can kind of miss that, but we, we have to do our
30:02
best to be discerning. And yeah, so back to the, the
30:06
powers, right? So there's AI think there's a
30:08
couple things going on, but Paul, Paul talks about, you
30:12
know, rulers and authorities and powers and what he has in mind
30:17
here are kind of cosmic, larger cosmic entities.
30:23
He doesn't define them in detail.
30:25
Like we sometimes think of like different archangels maybe
30:30
having names or things like that.
30:31
But there are some kind of perhaps like angelic beings or
30:35
maybe vaguer terms you might want to use.
30:40
But he has this sense of these larger cosmic entities that are
30:46
some of which are hostile against human beings that are
30:53
desiring to basically to sow division among human beings, to
30:57
oversee corrupt dealings. Even at like larger levels.
31:01
You get this in, you know, this might may ring a bell depending
31:06
on how much you listen to like Michael Heizer you you get this
31:09
in Jewish apocalyptic with different angelic beings
31:13
overseeing nations in some texts.
31:16
So there's an idea of like, I think what it all comes down to
31:20
because on some level it's it's hard, or at least I feel like
31:26
it's hard to fully define exactly what's going on
31:28
metaphysically, right? And all these kind of areas, I
31:32
know people have visions and things like that and I'm totally
31:34
open to that. But if we're just working kind
31:36
of from text, there's a lot of different kind of traditions and
31:39
things like this going on. But I, I think at a broad level,
31:42
it is, it's a way of saying, yes, there is, there's something
31:46
going on in the world that's more than just bad people doing
31:49
bad things. Like there's, there's kind of
31:52
cosmic structural issues. There's that are also so it's
31:57
like human beings are responsible, they make bad
31:59
decisions, but we're also being impacted and influenced in
32:03
certain ways from other, you know, other entities, even at a,
32:07
you know, larger population levels, right.
32:09
That's kind of the idea and I think Paul has that idea.
32:12
You know, he brings that idea in and and that's a that was a
32:16
major issue of what's wrong with the world.
32:18
So when he's going to talk about what Christ has done to put it
32:21
right, his ultimate victory right over all these hostile
32:26
powers, the last of which is Donatas death, You know, he's
32:30
going to talk about Christ being enthroned over these entities
32:33
and that the church, it's not so much that the church like get
32:37
some special insight into what each one is like as the church
32:42
stands against these by living the Jesus way, right.
32:46
So the Jesus way is the of love, self giving love.
32:51
That's the way that God has designed us to function as human
32:54
beings, because that's who God is in God's self.
32:57
And by doing that, we very, very clearly actually end up
33:02
resisting the, these hostile entities and their, the
33:07
ideologies that they've sown in the world of selfishness, pride,
33:13
arrogance, violence, you know, these kind of things that tear
33:18
human beings and communities apart, that the church is
33:22
supposed to be this alternative community, the body of Christ
33:28
that is different. So that that's kind of one
33:32
thing, you know, that that that's going on.
33:34
And then you also have in the texts, you know what we probably
33:39
think more so of when people think of spiritual warfare,
33:41
which are encounters with with like wicked spirits.
33:46
The New Testament refers to them often as unclean spirits, which
33:50
sounds kind of weird to us, but it's kind of an extension of the
33:54
idea of ritual purity from the Old Testament that you can be in
33:59
like, a clean or an unclean state.
34:00
Right. But this is an idea.
34:02
Yeah. This is an idea though of kind
34:04
of extended from that, that they had a sense also that sin, they
34:08
described sin as in some cases defiling the person or
34:12
corrupting the person. And this is kind of moves beyond
34:16
that to think of certain spirits that can enter to the person and
34:20
defile the person. So that's why the New Testament
34:23
frequently talks about unclean spirit, sorry, what we would
34:27
call demons as unclean spirits. It uses both terms.
34:31
It uses, you know, daimonion demon, but often it uses unclean
34:40
spirits. Yeah, to to describe.
34:42
So Jesus is walking on the water, the disciples are on the
34:46
boat. He calls Peter out to him.
34:48
In some translations, we see the language being used where he's
34:52
like, I'm not a ghost, right? You know what I mean?
34:54
He's like, it's, it's me. And I think that this is
34:57
fascinating. But, you know, that's in the
34:59
English though. So I'm glad that you're here to
35:01
help with this concept. Do we see a correlation between,
35:05
you know, spirit and and unclean spirit or ghost is there
35:10
because. Yeah.
35:11
What are we really doing with that through like the poetry of
35:14
the ancient Israel mindset, Hebrew mindset, 'cause it's just
35:18
a whole different conversation, but.
35:20
Yeah, let me check. I think I, I, I can pull that up
35:23
real quick. I'm I'm pretty sure it's
35:25
Phantasma is the Greek. Term Phantasma.
35:28
Interesting. And so, yeah.
35:34
And and so in this, in this context, yeah, you're right.
35:37
So in this context, what it is is they are they, they actually
35:41
see Jesus walking past them. And that, interestingly enough,
35:45
is actually an illusion. He wanted to pass by them.
35:49
That's probably an allusion to Job nine 10911 in the Septuagint
35:55
where God says I passed by you on the sea.
35:58
It's playing with this idea of like the disciples, like Jesus
36:02
being God with them, but they're not really recognizing it,
36:05
right, Like it does. It's kind of playing with that
36:07
idea a little bit. Yeah, But yes, you're right.
36:11
So they, what it reports here is they're saying to themselves
36:15
it's a ghost. So they're making this judgement
36:17
about Jesus. And that term there has more to
36:21
do with like kind of an apparition, an apparition of a,
36:25
of a deity, or it could be a, you know, some kind of divine
36:30
being, right? You have to recognize in the
36:33
ancient world, it's populated with God.
36:35
So to call like there are various, but the apparition of
36:37
some kind of God or divine being or whatever, that's more what's
36:40
being used there. That's not a term that's used of
36:43
the the spirits in other texts. So it's like a different.
36:48
Yeah, 'cause I know. I think it's Second Samuel.
36:50
Hopefully I didn't butcher this, but drawing from memory, I'm not
36:54
easy with chapter and verse. I usually just get enough of the
36:57
meat to know when something rises up in me, like, is this
37:01
important? Right.
37:01
Ask a question. Well, Samuel, you know, the
37:04
witch of Endor, we have this scenario.
37:06
Saul is there. And.
37:08
The witch calls up Samuel and she's using this language, at
37:13
least the way it conveys in the English is one like a son of God
37:17
or I don't know if that is referencing Benihana Elohim or
37:22
what really is going on there the Hebrew, but that he's coming
37:25
up he's he's illuminated right. And so what's the language being
37:31
used in that verse? Is there a correlation with what
37:33
we're seeing in the New Testament with same concepts
37:38
spirit? You know, just to strange
37:40
question I have. No, that's interesting.
37:42
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
37:44
What's the exact? Is it give you the exact
37:46
reference real quick And Samuel? Yeah, OK.
37:50
First, First Samuel 28 seven is where Saul is asking for the
37:54
serve. And find me a woman who is a
37:55
medium that I may go inquire of her. 28 eight.
37:59
So Saul disguises himself because he bans all of the
38:02
witches in the land, right, the necromancy.
38:04
So he's like having trouble finding one now.
38:07
And you know, he has to disguise himself.
38:09
So First Samuel 28 nine, the woman says, look, you know what
38:12
Saul has done? He has cut off the mediums of
38:13
the land. Then the woman said, whom shall
38:15
I bring up for you? Verse 11?
38:17
And he said, bring up Samuel for me.
38:19
When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice.
38:23
And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, why have you deceived me
38:26
for? So we're at 13.
38:30
First Samuel 2813 is right where we're getting into this.
38:34
Oh yeah, I saw. A spirit ascending out of the
38:38
earth. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
38:40
I see. That's New King James, not my
38:42
favorite version to read from, but but that's the language
38:45
we're getting in the English there.
38:46
Any correlations? Anything of interest do you
38:48
think? Yeah, I don't know, like there's
38:53
their language here is used of a God, right?
38:58
An Elohim. Elohim.
39:00
Yeah, yeah. And, and then yeah, so, yeah,
39:05
yeah. So it's I saw, literally I saw
39:09
gods ascending. Yes, not well.
39:11
That's using other translations. Elohim I the I am being plural
39:16
right? Chera beam Seraphim being.
39:18
Correct. Yeah.
39:19
And it's, and it's understood here as a plural.
39:22
So with with Elohim in the Old Testament, right, The you always
39:26
it can Elohim can refer to God, the God of Israel and as well as
39:30
other divine beings. It's a plural noun, right?
39:33
So you always have to look at context, but I'm looking at the
39:35
Greek Septuagint, and it renders it as theus, which would be God,
39:40
God's plural. So yeah, it it, it understands
39:43
it the same way, which makes sense.
39:44
I mean, contextually, you're not seeing Yahweh rising out of the
39:48
earth here. You're seeing the other, you
39:49
know, these other underworlds, underworld spirits or gods or
39:53
whatever. Yeah.
39:54
Very interesting to think about. I love.
39:57
Yeah, but you're right. I I mean the connection here
40:00
would be. Would be similar in that the
40:05
kind of manifestation of seeing a divine being, a God like that.
40:09
That's the kind of thing the disciples are connecting on the
40:12
boat. Right.
40:13
And we're getting a different root understanding for an
40:15
unclean spirit. We're not we don't have a
40:17
correlation in the same way spirits being recognized in
40:20
these two places where we can kind of see a universal
40:24
agreement where it bolts together.
40:25
We're looking at Elohim or gods or a spirit comes up in Samuel's
40:29
case with the witch of Endor. And also I loved, you know,
40:32
that's the first time I've ever heard that put together where
40:35
when you were saying Jesus was almost trying to pass by them
40:39
and correlating that to Job. Man, that made me jump.
40:41
I got. Oh yeah.
40:42
It's a cool little. It's a cool little connection
40:44
there. Yeah.
40:45
That's one of those little love it.
40:46
Yeah. You find love it?
40:47
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, no, yeah.
40:49
I was just gonna affirm what you're saying.
40:51
The the, I think you won't find the idea of unclean spirits in
40:56
the Old Testament, except for maybe there's one text in
41:00
Zechariah that uses it, I think kind of metaphorically.
41:04
But the term starts to show up in the in the late 2nd temple
41:08
period. So the couple 100 years before
41:10
Jesus, you see this term used also in the Dead Sea Scrolls and
41:14
some other texts. So it's it's a little bit later
41:17
developing than some of our other Old Testament texts.
41:21
Interesting. Yeah.
41:23
Jesus being seen, you know, the I am being seen in the Old
41:28
Testament and he can be presented from the Old
41:31
Testament. Is that something that you have
41:35
spent some time on and feel passionate about?
41:38
Yeah. Can you run that thing home?
41:40
What do you want to do with that?
41:41
Yeah, man, sure. Well, I mean, there's so many
41:43
different places you could you could go with this, right?
41:48
And some of them are like more explicit sort of in your face
41:52
than others. So I mean, an obvious example
41:56
would be Gospel of John where, you know, they're arguing with
42:00
him about, you know, Abraham. And then he says, well before
42:03
Abraham was Egoemi, I am now that that Greek phrase ego and
42:08
me can mean many things. It's used all over the New
42:10
Testament to mean different things.
42:12
But in that context, it's very obvious what he's saying.
42:15
He's referring to what the Lord said to Moses when he revealed
42:19
himself in the Bush. I am who I am, or I will be who
42:23
I will be. The Hebrew can be translated
42:25
either way, but he's taking basically a piece of that that
42:29
revelation. So it's like the God's, God's
42:33
name or as it were, or kind of his name.
42:36
He sort of obfuscates giving Moses the name because he's not
42:40
like other deities that you can control when you have the name,
42:43
right? So it's kind.
42:44
Of older you can control these in the book.
42:47
Yeah. And that's, that's right.
42:49
Yeah. So I mean, it's, it's all over
42:51
the place, right. I mean, that's why, that's why
42:54
the the the Spirit or Legion, this legion asks Jesus, you
42:58
know, or tries to identify him. I know who you are, Jesus,
43:01
you're the southernmost high. Like he's trying to use Jesus
43:04
name. And then Jesus says, what's your
43:06
name to back to right. So, yeah, there's a lot of power
43:09
in knowing the name. Yeah, you get it everywhere.
43:12
I mean, in the Odyssey, for example, when Odysseus has
43:15
escaped the Cyclops and is leaving the leaving the island
43:18
on the boat, he makes this mistake of hubris and looks back
43:21
at the cyclops and shouts out, you know, now like you, I know
43:25
that you've been bested by Odysseus.
43:28
And then the Cyclops is like, oh, now I know who you are.
43:31
Boom. And nails it, right.
43:32
So it's it's everywhere. The name gives you power.
43:36
So yeah, I mean, back to the whole thing.
43:39
Yahweh is not going to be manipulated in that way.
43:41
So he's I am who I am. I will be who I will be, but
43:46
that that's what Jesus is picking up on when he what he
43:50
says, you know, before Abraham was I am that that's just a a
43:54
really obvious, you know, claim. And and then, of course, you
43:58
know, you go all the way back to the beginning of John's Gospel.
44:02
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God.
44:05
The word was God, right. So John is showing us here that
44:09
Jesus is what's what's being used here is God or this word,
44:14
the Greek word theos is being predicated to Jesus because he's
44:18
distinguishing son and Father as different persons.
44:21
But they're both properly Theos. They're both God, right?
44:26
And and to use our, our Trinitarian language, but I
44:29
mean, this is a call back to the beginning of Genesis.
44:32
Jesus, the word was the one through whom you know, the
44:35
Father creates. And then in verse 14, he has the
44:40
word has taken on flesh, dwelt among us.
44:42
That dwelling language is the term Skanao, which is to
44:47
Tabernacle. We've seen his glory.
44:50
So what what what John is saying to us here is that the
44:55
incarnation is the Tabernacle of God coming down to be with us,
45:00
right? So when you're encountering
45:02
Jesus, in other words, you're encountering the temple.
45:04
Well, that that's the divine presence.
45:06
That's where God is encountered, right?
45:08
So that's a really strong claim of, you know, Jesus as God in
45:15
the flesh, God with, with people.
45:18
So. Quick question though, when I
45:20
think it's in Jude when the author is saying the angels that
45:24
disrobed of their former estate. Oh, you want to get into that?
45:29
Yeah. Would love to.
45:30
They're these angels are in chains of bondage under the
45:33
earth. I think the Greek word was
45:34
ocarion and and that's referencing the flesh or the
45:37
vessel. Am I remembering that correctly
45:39
by chance? But.
45:40
I don't know. Let me I can look it up real
45:42
quick. Yeah, I'm.
45:43
Pretty sure. Starts in like June.
45:45
Yeah, Jude 1-6 maybe. I don't know, I'm really bad
45:49
with chapter. You got it right.
45:51
It's Jude Six. OK.
45:52
And the good news with Jude, it's so short, there's no
45:54
chapters. So it's just yeah.
45:57
So they're these angels are guarded.
46:01
They didn't. Yeah, right.
46:02
They failed to guard their, you know, position of authority.
46:05
They abandoned it. Yeah, correct.
46:07
It is correct. Oikiterion.
46:10
So they're dwelling place. Yeah.
46:13
This is an allusion to what some would call the Watcher tradition
46:17
based on the Book of First Enoch.
46:20
It's a tradition that's very popular and widespread in late
46:25
Second Temple Judaism as a, you know, kind of an explanation of
46:28
what's gone on wrong in the world and in the Watcher
46:31
tradition. And you see this kind of hinted
46:35
at actually in Genesis 6 before the flood account where the, the
46:39
bin Elohim come down, the sons of God.
46:42
It's the same tradition. The, the cause of evil and
46:48
violence in the world is from this fall, if you like.
46:52
It's, you know, we often think of Genesis 3 as the fall or
46:56
whatever, but literally these fallen, these these creatures,
47:01
the the Nephilim comes from the Hebrew root to fall.
47:05
So they're literally the fallen ones, right?
47:08
Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah.
47:11
And even the, in the, in the, in the watcher tradition, the
47:16
explanation for the origin of like evil spirits also comes
47:20
from the offspring of these angelic beings with, with women.
47:24
So Jude is just sort of like swimming in this water.
47:28
Jude knows this tradition and is referencing this tradition not
47:33
to make some deeper point about this tradition, but to talk
47:37
about he's basically got like a litany of bad stuff, bad
47:42
characters, because he's talking about certain false teachers in
47:45
the church. So it's it's sort of like a, an
47:47
old school burn, if you will. Like he's like stacking up, you
47:50
know, he's kind of roasting these guys a little bit.
47:54
False teachers. Yeah.
47:55
Now what about when we go to Genesis 3, the seed war, you
47:59
know, the seed of the serpent being at enmity with the seed of
48:03
the woman. Do we see?
48:05
I mean, I know that personally, I hold the view where I see the
48:07
thread for the Nephilim, right, The law first mentioned, even in
48:11
Job, if you prescribe to that, where we see the angels are
48:14
applauding the celebration, they're the same word.
48:17
There's Benihah Elohim. And then when we go to Genesis
48:20
64, like you just mentioned, the Benihah, the Benihah Elohim saw
48:24
the Banatha Dom, the daughters of Adam that they were fair,
48:27
right. And then the Nephilim are in the
48:29
earth in these days. And everyone's like it's some
48:32
some translations. You see giant there.
48:34
We get Gigantis from the Greek right.
48:35
Kia So I've heard all these arguments on every side.
48:39
I've had guests like Gary Wayne on thoroughly 5-6 part series.
48:43
We've hammered the idea home, the visible ones, the invisible
48:47
ones, right? But what I love about you being
48:49
here with me in the seat is your heart and your passion and just
48:54
letting the text be what it is, you know, and coming from an
48:57
expertise in in the New Testament in the Bible and
49:00
having that heart posture just to say, well, let's go there.
49:04
Let's see what the final authority has to say about it.
49:08
Do we see any threads from Genesis three to six four to the
49:12
tower of Babel, Nimrod becoming a mighty man or a mighty heart
49:17
before the Lord? What what's happening language
49:19
wise there and is there interconnectivity?
49:22
Yeah, I, I think the short answer is there absolutely is
49:26
interconnectivity because I mean, you have to keep in mind
49:31
the the people that wrote the Bible, the the Old Testament,
49:34
the New Testament comes together in a shorter time and in a kind
49:37
of more compressed format. But the writers of the Hebrew
49:40
text, they, they absolutely love interconnectivity and drawing
49:45
these threads for us. And they do that with word play,
49:48
as you alluded to it, like, you know, linguistic hooks.
49:51
So when you have, you know, Abel killed by Cain, right, there's
49:57
hooks from that back to the garden tradition, like the
50:00
garden story. And then Seth is seen as kind of
50:04
like the New Hope for the seed of the woman, right?
50:08
Produced. By.
50:11
Right. So there's there's absolutely
50:12
this thread is kind of running, running through throughout.
50:17
So I just refer to it as the primeval history.
50:20
That's Genesis one through 11. That's what scholars refer to it
50:23
as. But yeah, there's there's,
50:26
there's all kinds of these, you know, sort of connections.
50:28
And so, yeah, I don't know if you have anything like specific
50:33
that you were wondering. Can you comment on like Hebrew
50:38
poetry right for these concepts and these threads?
50:41
Because I know, at least from my understanding about Hebrew
50:45
poetry, it's not rhythmic in language or in Word.
50:49
Like like all poetry, it's rhythmic in storytelling, right?
50:53
So it's kind of like what we're talking about, that we see these
50:56
threads showing up and happening, you know, with Cain
50:58
and Abel. You see glimmers of that in the
51:00
garden when you see, umm, what is his name?
51:03
Uh, Joseph in Egypt, he has the cup bearer dreams, right?
51:07
One of the cup, the bread guy gets killed.
51:10
You see some glimmers of the gospel in that, like the body is
51:13
killed, the cup bearer right, is restored.
51:16
And he and Joseph says in the prison cell like, hey, don't
51:19
forget about me. Remind, you know, remind of what
51:22
my interpretation of this dream to the king, right?
51:25
And like, I see the gospel in that.
51:26
There's an allusion to the Joseph.
51:28
There's a actually, there's an allusion to the Joseph story,
51:32
you know, when his brothers see him coming from afar and they're
51:34
nice. All right, we're gonna, there's
51:36
an allusion to that in the Gospels, in the the parable of
51:41
the wicked tenants, when Jesus tells this parable about, you
51:44
know, different servants that come or sorry, you know, the
51:47
Lord sends different servants and they, they beat him, they
51:49
go. And then finally he sees the
51:51
they he sends the son and they see the son coming, you know,
51:55
and they say, let's kill him. That's an allusion back to the
51:58
Joseph story in that, you know, that parable.
52:01
Yeah. So definitely.
52:03
Like you have what are called typological connections, you
52:08
know, from the old to the New Testament.
52:10
Another great example is, you know, it's so crazy.
52:13
You think about Genesis and this back and forth, you know, from
52:17
the land to Egypt, which is obviously playing itself out
52:21
leading up to the Exodus. But then if you think about
52:24
like, OK, so how did the people of Israel get to Egypt?
52:29
It was an act of God preserving them during the time of a famine
52:33
through Joseph going to Egypt. And then you go to the New
52:37
Testament, the first book, the New Testament is Matthew.
52:39
And in order to preserve Jesus's life, they go to Egypt.
52:44
Joseph. Joseph takes the family to
52:46
Egypt. And then he quotes Hosea, 11,
52:49
one out of Egypt. I've called my son.
52:52
So, yeah, yeah, there's these kind of connections there that.
52:56
And The thing is, from your view is that is literal, right?
53:00
You actually believe Jesus as a child goes into Egypt
53:04
physically, right? Oh oh. 100%, yeah.
53:06
Yeah, I, I assume so. But like, I know that with so
53:10
many figures of speech, there's a lot of strange stuff that that
53:13
goes on in Christianity where people say, oh, that's just an
53:14
archetype, that's a parable. That's only for, you know, it's
53:17
just idealism about something that didn't actually happen,
53:21
right? Like, so when God says hide
53:25
under the wing of the Almighty, it doesn't mean God have wings.
53:28
Like, that's just a poetic phrase to, you know, he's
53:31
painting a picture that resonates throughout the ages
53:34
that a mother hen or any bird of that sort would hide their their
53:38
chicks under the wing. Right.
53:39
So it doesn't mean God has wings all of a sudden.
53:41
Yeah. But like so some places in the
53:43
Bible, Lord. Is Jesus right When Jesus goes
53:46
Jerusalem, I've longed to have, you know, huddle you under my
53:49
wings like on your. Chick, he's doing.
53:52
Jesus is doing the same thing, right?
53:53
He's he's he's actually alluding to the same kind of stuff in the
53:56
prophetic positioning. Yeah.
53:58
So it's really fascinating to, you know, just learn this as I'm
54:02
going along and just hear, you know, just just for it to be
54:06
deepened and, and to excite the idea that I believe the Bible
54:11
means what it says, says what it means.
54:12
I think it's literal unless it cannot be taken literal, you
54:15
know, And then I look at different formats of speech as
54:18
being poetic or, you know, yeah. I think that's really important,
54:21
what you said there is really paying attention to the kind of
54:27
writing that's involved, or we call it genre and and what the
54:31
writer's trying to do. Right, 'cause that's right.
54:34
We want to understand scripture. What can sometimes happen is we
54:39
take literal to mean whatever makes common sense to us.
54:43
And then the mistake there is that what's common to us might
54:46
not be common sense to the to the writer, right?
54:49
So, yeah, yeah, reading the Bible in the in the Protestant
54:53
tradition, reading the Bible literally, literally meant for
54:58
the Reformers trying to understand what the biblical
55:01
authors meant to communicate, which meant which meant you have
55:04
to pay attention to history, context, type of speech, all of
55:08
that, all the stuff you're talking about, you have to do
55:10
that. Sometimes when people say today
55:13
I read the Bible literally, they just mean, well, I take it at
55:15
face value and this is what it looks like it's saying.
55:18
So it's got to mean that. And it's like, well, no, let's,
55:20
you know, keep in mind and there's a lot, lot of time gap.
55:23
We got to pay attention to context.
55:24
You know all that. Very well said.
55:27
And that reminds me of the Greek word for training, Gunanzo.
55:32
I think it is intense intervals of training, right?
55:34
And it's like that's. Breathe.
55:36
Yeah, yeah, we have to train. I need to show yourself well
55:39
approved knowing to rightly divide the word that you will
55:41
not be ashamed right. So it's an individual case like
55:45
but for as many of us that are on this journey out there, I
55:48
think it's really worthwhile, you know, to read the Bible for
55:52
yourself, but also be teachable and and just learning the
55:56
ancient cultural context of things and and understanding.
55:59
I was blown away, dude, the whole entire if your eye be
56:03
dark, then how great is the evil in you versus your eye be light.
56:06
And then Doctor Mike Davis is going through and he's talking
56:08
about the understanding the language at the time was
56:11
generosity for light. So if if you be generous, your
56:15
body's foot and he's alluding to this, this, you know, local
56:19
cadence that would have been understood completely in Jesus
56:22
time. And we've read it today and
56:23
we're like, oh, if your eyes dark, oh, you know, if people
56:26
can make anything out of that, I've heard so many wild things.
56:29
I'm like, no, please, someone help us.
56:31
Right. Yeah, yeah.
56:33
That's the anointing to break the yoke on this.
56:35
Yeah, and, and we just have to. You're right.
56:38
We have to be really careful. We're all gonna make mistakes,
56:42
right? And we're all, I think what you
56:44
said about being teachable is so important.
56:46
The more time I've spent studying the Bible, a kind of
56:50
like a, in more academic kind of context, the more I'm aware of
56:54
how little I actually know. So I'm, I, I think the more
56:58
humility can actually be a sign that you, you actually know
57:01
something, You know, you're aware that there's just a lot
57:05
out there. And it's not like we have to be
57:08
afraid. You know, we have sufficient
57:10
knowledge and we can grow in that knowledge.
57:12
But but like, we don't have to pretend or act like to be a
57:15
disciple of Jesus, we have to have the answer to every
57:17
question, right? Some some things, some things we
57:20
won't have the answer to ever. Some things we might get better
57:22
answers to, but we have to do some work, some study, you know,
57:26
but we don't have to operate from a position of like, you
57:29
know, fear of OK, you know, I have to have the correct one
57:34
thing on every single thing and if it.
57:36
Doesn't have to be like aggressive and defensive like I
57:38
need to win this argument. Like no, this is a lifestyle and
57:42
it should be a life journey as well.
57:44
Amen. Yeah, I agree.
57:45
Yeah. And I wanna sharpen and finding
57:49
so many other people that are in that area has really been
57:53
uplifting because now there's it's like, I thought I was alone
57:57
in the beginning. And it's like, no, you're,
57:59
you're never alone. You're gonna meet hundreds of
58:01
people as you go and just and. For, for all of the bad stuff,
58:06
the, the, the, the garbage we're dealing with when it comes to
58:09
social media and Internet and all this kind of stuff, that is
58:12
one thing that is I think a blessing.
58:15
Like we, we have the ability to connect with, with people and
58:20
with sources of information in ways that are just
58:22
unprecedented. And it's great we take advantage
58:26
of that, you know, and it's great that you're doing this
58:30
podcast and giving people the opportunity to journey with you
58:33
and think about scripture and and encourage, you know, just
58:36
encouraging one another. That's a great opportunity we
58:39
have so. So, well, let me let me ask you
58:42
a final question and we'll kind of wind down here for for a part
58:45
one. But what, in your opinion, is
58:47
the most important encouragement for the millennial generation
58:51
today? That's a great question.
58:54
I guess I'm an older millennial, like very tip of that
58:57
generation. So I think I'll just speak from
59:00
the heart here and say Jesus is far greater, far better than the
59:08
brokenness, the toxic brands of Christianity, the
59:13
authoritarianism, the anyisms that we, you know, encounter in
59:18
our world that we see in the church.
59:20
You know, Jesus is greater, he's worth it and cling to him.
59:24
Continue to to follow him even when you're wondering like,
59:31
where am I? Do I belong in church?
59:34
Where do I belong? I've asked myself that question
59:38
sometimes, like where do I belong?
59:41
Who are my people? Because what I see going on
59:44
here, I don't know if I want to be a part of this or I just
59:47
don't know if I fit in or or whatever it may be.
59:50
But what keeps me going is Jesus, you know, it's he is, I
59:55
believe with every fiber of my being.
59:56
He's the Lord of the world. He he rose from the dead, as he
1:00:01
said. I mean, if that if we got I, I'm
1:00:04
going to steal a quote from from NT Wright that he had shared on
1:00:08
my. Podcast when I interviewed him,
1:00:11
which he stole from a London taxi cab driver.
1:00:15
So it's like 3 stages removed, but I thought it was so good.
1:00:18
He said, you know, he said the taxi cab driver turned around at
1:00:22
him and said, well, if Jesus rose from the dead, it's all
1:00:26
everything else is pretty much rock'n'roll, isn't it?
1:00:28
And he's like, you know what that's that's about right.
1:00:31
Like, so if that is true, then it makes work following Jesus
1:00:36
worth it no matter what. But I, I want to say beyond
1:00:40
that, like there is a lot of, I think millennials are, are aware
1:00:47
of a lot of the hypocrisy and the struggles in the church and
1:00:52
just forms of Christianity that maybe just don't really reflect
1:00:56
well who Jesus is. And so there's hunger, there's a
1:01:01
desire for people to love one another, for justice, you know,
1:01:06
for all these really good things.
1:01:08
And I want to affirm all those things and just say that I think
1:01:10
those things are ultimately found in Christ.
1:01:14
And that's where, you know, that's where we, that's where we
1:01:18
find our true selves. That's where we find our true
1:01:20
identity. I don't know, I feel like I'm
1:01:23
rambling a little bit, but I'm kind of talking to myself in a
1:01:26
way as well because I mean, these are things that I think
1:01:30
about quite a bit. So.
1:01:33
First, John 411, beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to
1:01:39
love one another. I really enjoyed having you
1:01:43
here, man. It was refreshing.
1:01:45
We jumped around a little bit, like there's so many threads I
1:01:48
wanted to stay on, but I'm like, oh wait, what about this?
1:01:51
So I would love to just invite you back for Part 2 down the
1:01:54
road. It was an honor.
1:01:56
Thank you. Thank you, Rod.
1:01:58
I really appreciate it. This is a really fun
1:01:59
conversation. Thanks.
1:02:02
Well, that's the episode you guys.
1:02:03
I'm going to ask you to share this with your friends, family
1:02:05
members, Co workers, share it with your pastor, with your
1:02:08
doctor coming to you from Southeastern Pennsylvania.
1:02:12
God bless and goodbye. This is Boy Brandon.
1:02:20
Thank you for tuning into the Millennial Muscle seat.
1:02:22
My favorite podcast. Thought I was on my dead bed.
1:02:34
On my dead bed. I was really stressing.
1:02:40
I was stressing all that stressing.
1:02:44
It didn't turn depression. Thought the Lords don't want me
1:02:49
to let you go and learn this lesson.
1:02:54
Thought I was on my dead bed, me stressing and I was caught up in
1:02:57
my feelings. I was thinking reckless.
1:02:59
Thought the Lord don't want me let you go learn this lesson.
1:03:01
I was so deep in my tender I didn't see forgiveness.
1:03:04
Learn this lesson. You gonna learn this lesson And
1:03:06
my mind ain't turn on me like I was feeling helpless.
1:03:09
I ain't know which way to turn. Like I got inside my dead way.
1:03:12
I was defeating the ground, running in my casket.
1:03:14
I was dead and gone. Didn't see the light, couldn't
1:03:17
find my way home, couldn't fight 'cause I knew I was wrong.
1:03:21
No one inside. I was all alone.
1:03:24
Yeah. Yeah.
1:03:26
But he changed all my ways. Saw me deep up in my sin.
1:03:29
And pull me out. The grape said he shed his blood
1:03:31
for me. So I'm only this way now.
1:03:33
Just repent of all your sins. I'll show Amazing Grace.
1:03:35
Sometimes I think about. Sometimes I think about life
1:03:39
without you. What would I be about?
1:03:41
Be about? Where would I be if I didn't
1:03:44
have you? Sometimes I think about.
1:03:46
Think about. Sometimes I think about a life
1:03:50
without you. What would I be about?
1:03:52
Be about where would I be if I didn't have you who thought I
1:03:56
was on my dead end or my dead end?
1:04:01
I was really stressing. I was stressing all that
1:04:06
stressing needed to turn depression.
1:04:11
Thought the Lord don't want me like you gonna learn this lesson
1:04:16
now. I'm on my way up my way up don't
1:04:19
hold me Instead I just had to shake him, had to put my trust
1:04:22
in Jesus cause eat away Yahweh, Yahweh never be the same.
1:04:28
Let the whole me in the water right in Jesus name and I'm the
1:04:31
Holy Spirit. Now I'm really safe.
1:04:33
No more time for all my feelings.
1:04:34
Got to walk in faith and I'm ready for every battle that come
1:04:37
my way. No I ain't joking.
1:04:40
Holy Ghost fire filling me down to smoking.
1:04:43
If you want it, you can get it. Got that power inside of me and
1:04:47
he is really potent. Every captain will be free.
1:04:51
Every devil got to flee, and not because of me, but they got
1:04:57
inside of me. Sometimes I think about,
1:05:00
sometimes I think about life without you.
1:05:03
What would I be about? Where would I be if I didn't
1:05:07
have you? Sometimes I think about,
1:05:11
sometimes I think about a life without you.
1:05:13
What would I be about? Where would I be if I didn't
1:05:17
have you? I was really stressing.
1:05:30
I was stressing. Yes, welcome to the millennial
1:05:43
seat. Sorry, what is it called?
1:05:45
Millennial seed must. Millennial mustard seed.
1:05:48
Yeah, that's it. Millennial mustard tongue
1:05:51
twister.