Latest / Deep Trope Fantasy & Romance Podcast / Unpacking Threshing Day with AXHarleston & RuningBooks: Dragon Secrets, Lore, & Bloodline Theories
Transcript
- Rachel: Welcome to Deep Trope, where we go deep into fantasy and romance books, one trope at a time. I'm Rachel, romantasy theorist. Kate: And I'm Kate, lover of all things dark and spicy. Rachel: And today we are joined by some very special guests, fellow Fourth Wing fans and theorists for our Threshing Day reaction episode, Avorie and Xavier, known as @axharleston and Claire from @runingbooks So thank you so much for joining us. Avorie Avorie & Xavier: I'm going join in. Rachel: and Xavier, could you introduce yourselves first? Avorie & Xavier: We are Avorie and Xavier Harleston healthcare professionals by day romantasy theorists and aspiring authors by night You probably notice from Romantasy chaos HQ if you know us it's from Romantasy chaos HQ on Instagram where or other or the romantasy chaos HQ podcast Or other places where we are doing things that involve a lot of theories. We love we love a theory we love a Theory. if you want to see us, we'll be at Fantasy Forge at the end of the month. Yes. Rachel: yes. That's so exciting. All right, Claire, can you introduce yourself as well? Claire: Yeah, I'm Claire. I make content on Instagram and on TikTok as well. It's mostly fantasy romantasy related. I like to do news recaps, theories, that kind of stuff. I'm also writing a romantasy book. We'll ever see if it ever s we'll see if it ever like sees the light of day, but working on that on the side. Rachel: We can't wait to get a little glimpse of it, hopefully soon. So last night we all got together for a virtual threshing day release party, and we spent all day today reading up until some of us the last minute. but we just finished the book. So before we get into anything with spoilers, I would love if we could just go around and all give our initial thoughts and reactions, like for anybody thinking about reading the book. Claire: okay, so my initial reaction was there was no giant reveal. And then I thought, who cares? Because there were so many little tiny cool details for the fans. I just loved every second of Avorie & Xavier: you Claire: it. And this was a great look into something that we wouldn't have gotten from the main book. So I'm super happy with it. Rachel: Absolutely. What about you, Avorie and Xavier? Avorie & Xavier: Spiral spiral spiral. I don't know if we're into the spoiler section yet or not, but don't say any spoilers So many Claire: No spoilers Avorie & Xavier: so many spirals like so many spirals Which is why it took so long and we got down to the last minute because we went into sprint mode and weren't allowed to talk about anything So I would say this book was not what I expected in the best ways. And if you love this series, if you love these characters and the world building and the magic system, and especially if you love the dragons, you'll love this book. I would never recommend this to be the starting point for anyone as an entry point into this reading these series. Fourth wing is definitely where you need to start. And Rebecca has said that that's the the reading order would be to read this fourth. I think you could read it after Iron Flame, but it's going to hit a lot harder if you read it after Onyx Storm. But it was great in all the best ways. had very like Rebecca's style. Her voice really came through, but at the same time had these very distinct characters, not only in the humans, but in the dragons. And it was really satisfying. was a very sad. I was not sure how far we would get with 224 pages, but it was very satisfying. And I read it on, our books didn't get delivered, so we were reading it on Kindle. And I was so excited. It does include the black and white artwork in the Kindle edition, but I was so excited when our color editions got here because the artwork is amazing and I love it Rachel: Yes. Avorie & Xavier: so much. Rachel: Yes, I can't wait to reread with the artwork as part of the actual experience. Avorie & Xavier: Yes. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Like the whole, we Kate: Yeah, same. Avorie & Xavier: did have to spend a couple minutes talking about how big are dragons? Always have more time talk about how big are trees? How big are redwoods? Yes. Rachel: yeah, they're pretty big. Kate: yeah, there were a lot of trees. Claire: A lot of oak trees, too. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: Kate, what did you think? Kate: I really enjoyed it as well. there was so much personality in this book. There's so much personality packed into what did you say, 224 pages? which I I loved. just getting to know, like you said, the dragons specifically. I feel like we got so much more personality from them than we got in the the main books. and I also agree with Claire if this was really for the fans, because you like everyone was saying, you get so much more from this if you are really connected to these characters. If you are a really casual reader of the the series so far, you might not connect with this as much, I would say. because, you know, a lot of the the details that are in there and the the little hints at things, I think you have to be really pretty connected with the the world, to kind of pick up on some of those and enjoy it a lot. Rachel: Yeah, I agree. I was very sort of suspicious of what what this book could even be, like POVs from threshing, like how is everybody's story gonna be different? Why is it gonna matter? And I really liked how we got to know each person. I mean, having those POVs, I I cared about these people a lot more than I did before. I mean, I'll Avorie & Xavier: Okay. Okay. Rachel: I'll Thareux one out there as an example, Bodhi. Never cared before about Bodhi. This made me kind of like him. So yeah. Kate: Yeah. Good point. Rachel: All right. Should we get into Avorie & Xavier: you Rachel: spoilers? Cause I think we're all on the edge of our seats trying to hold them in. Yes. Avorie & Xavier: Yes. Yes. Kate: We're all holding back, yeah. Rachel: So this is kind of the blanket spoiler warning. If you have not read this book yet, pause and come back in, you know, a couple hours once you finish reading, because we're gonna be talking about it in detail. Avorie & Xavier: And it's also spoilers for fourth wing iron flame and onyx storm, right? So Rachel: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kate: Right, the whole series. Claire: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: every Empyrean book. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. So maybe take two weeks if you haven't read yet. Avorie & Xavier: Or read faster. Rachel: All right, so we made some bets last night on what we thought was gonna happen. Should we get into our bets and who won? Okay, Avorie & Xavier: Yeah. Kate: Yes. Claire: Do it. Rachel: so why don't we walk through who who wants to go through what our what our bets were, like what the winners slash losers would have to do. Avorie & Xavier: Okay, so if we lose, we have to write a fanfic, at least a thousand words. And you picked that the fanfic had to be about Imogen and Garrick and include the rusty bucket. And all I'm going to say is I hope we lose. the first time in Kate: Ha ha. Avorie & Xavier: her life, Avorie is like, yes, let's lose. Not only is it going to have a rusty bucket, it's going to have a maple leaf. A beautiful maroon maple leaf. Magenta. Claire: Yeah. Rachel: Magenta. Avorie & Xavier: okay. Magenta. Rachel: Well, I only reason that stood out to me because I was like, I've never seen a magenta leaf before, I don't think. Unless I don't know what magenta means. Avorie & Xavier: Yes, which is currently red. Yeah, it does seem like it's more pink than what I've Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: seen. But yes, yeah, Kate: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: sure. At any rate, it's going to be in there. It's definitely very tenderly placed on the bottom of a rusty bucket at the moment. It's actually just inside his light leather jacket. That was at all times. OK, so we don't mind. Always? No, it's got to be inside something. But we don't mind losing. That's and so that's yeah. And we will make this available somehow. Kate: You might you might do it anyway, is what it sounds like. Avorie & Xavier: Probably, like I've never written a true fanfic in my life. But yeah, I'm here for it. Rachel: All right, Claire, what were the rest of the bets? Claire: So if Rachel and Kate lose, they have to read a book written by a man, which I think should be The Martian, they were arguing they should get to choose their book. I guess we will cross that bridge when we come to it. not The Martian, Rachel: The Martian? Who wrote the what's the Martian? Claire: not the Martian, Project Hail Mary, Project Hail Mary, sorry, same author, wrong book. Rachel: okay. Kate: Same author though. Avorie & Xavier: Although the market's a good pick too, but anyway, Kate: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: but Project Hail Mary because they deserve Rocky Claire: And and you guys like audio and it's prime on audio. So we did you a service Rachel: okay. Claire: there. Like it's like I Kate: Wait. Claire: I wouldn't ask you to read that book. Yeah. Kate: Is Will does Will Wheaton do this one too? Cause d Claire: Yes, it's the same narrator. Kate: okay. Claire: Is that bad or good? Kate: I don't know. I've heard I've heard I've heard Avorie & Xavier: Wil Wheaton has green flag energy though. Kate: like both both sides of it. Some people love that he narrates all of that author's books and some people do Rachel: Mm. Kate: not like him. So I don't have an opinion yet. I haven't actually listened to one. Cause be Claire: no, it says that it's Ray Porter. Kate: okay. Claire: So yeah, I think it might be a different one. I don't know. Kate: But either way, that clearly that shows that I mean, reading a book by a a male author is not something that I do that often. 'Cause I these are very popular books and I have not touched any of them. Claire: and then if I lose then I will be releasing I'm gonna say the first chapter and as soon as I write a spicy chapter, I will release both to you guys of my book and Rachel: Peace. Claire: include a snippet, a line from my book on my social media. Kate: Yay. Okay, do I do I kind of want all of us to lose? Like I feel like these consequences are not like they're kind of tempting. Rachel: Yes! Okay. These are some good bets. Avorie & Xavier: Yes. Claire: Yeah. Rachel: All right, so on our whiteboard, I don't know if you can see it really, but the first question we had was what did Ridoc do? So Avorie's Claire: Can we just say that Ridoc did nothing? There was no big Ridoc reveal. Rachel: Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. What was Kate: Yeah. Rachel: her niece reacting to? Avorie & Xavier: I can only assume it's Kate: Don't know. Avorie & Xavier: like how dangerously close to the sword. I mean, what was it the belt? Like wrapped his belt around this bound the pendulum. I didn't expect it to be more breathtaking. I did. I mean, it was breathtaking. We also have to remember Kate: Yeah. Yeah. I I I actually read Avorie & Xavier: that was a teenager. That was a teenager reacting. So. Kate: Sure. But like I Rachel: Yeah, but Kate: I actually listened to that section twice because I was like, did I miss something? What was the big like shocking? Yeah, I I listened to Rachel: Did you do the audio book? Avorie & Xavier: Or or was it Did you the audiobook or the graphic audio? Where's the graphic audios in? Claire: Just graphic. Yeah. Kate: Yeah, just just regular audiobook. But yeah, I li I listened to it twice because I was I was try I thought I thought that I missed something because I didn't feel like there was like a big shocking moment with that. The only thing that I could think was maybe it was the fact that he almost rejected his dragon. Like is that it? I don't Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, I Kate: know. Avorie & Xavier: mean, it was it was a little shocking when he was like, No, I want an old stodgy dragon who would make me more stodgy. Rachel: He was like, I need a babysitter. Kate: Yeah. So yeah, may maybe it's just the fact that he didn't immediately click with with Aotrom and like he kind of questioned it at first when it seems like they were so perfectly made for each other that you wouldn't think that he would question it. Rachel: Well, I actually think Avorie and Xavier you might have gotten this one right. Cause you did s Avorie & Xavier: Well, what did everyone bet? Rachel: okay, so you guys said flight maneuvers slash acrobatics, which I think the belt thing was. Claire: Yeah. Kate: That's true. Rachel: Deep trope, Kate and I said Bond a second dragon. And the way I was Claire: It did not. Rachel: reading this book, thinking that we were gonna get another chapter before Sloane and Aaric, I was convinced the whole time. Kate: Ha ha Rachel: And then Claire said inside thought, like said it inside thought out loud to his dragon, which I guess he did all of that, 'cause he Yeah. Claire: He did yell obscenities at him. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: That's true. Avorie & Xavier: Yes. Claire: I but it's it wasn't like a huge thing though, but Rachel: So but I think you both got that right. And we did not. Kate: We swung for the fences on that one and missed. Avorie & Xavier: I'm sorry, we swung for the fences on the quote. I will say it doesn't mean he Claire: Mm. Avorie & Xavier: didn't, it just wasn't in the book. Rachel: That's my belief as well. What's up with that tattoo? All right, spicy scene. We had a bet on yeah, we all Claire: We also guess, didn't we? Rachel: said yes. We all thought there would be a spicy scene. Avorie & Xavier: We all. Yes, I really doubted there would be, but yeah. But like this is her first. Rachel: I know. Same. Kate: We wanted it, but Avorie & Xavier: This is Rebecca. Yarros his first book without a spicy scene, right? Yes, but I mean, so that spicy scene wasn't wasn't entirely there, but there was the riding suggestion. yeah. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, Imogen does make an explicit remark. about there is a talk about who's warming whose beds and who's Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: sleeping around and she does make a very explicit remark about Garrick's manhood. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: We could probably say it. Claire: Mm-hmm. Kate: We did also get a mention of a bedfellow of Brennan's. Rachel: Yep. Yep. Avorie & Xavier: I mean, don't think they count and we Kate: They don't. Avorie & Xavier: all get the same score anyway. Claire: It works that we all said the same thing so we don't have to like worry about it. Like we're all either in or out. Yep. Kate: Yeah, that that one's a wash. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: But but but but but for for the for the people reading fourth wing for romance, I don't want to mislead you. There was no spicy scene, but it was. It was hot. It was hot. Rachel: There was y there was yearning. Claire: Exactly. Avorie & Xavier: There was sexual tension. That could be cut by a dragon. Rachel: Eyes here. There was eyes here. Avorie & Xavier: Yes ma'am. There was a 78 day streak that was broken. Rachel: Wait, what? Avorie & Xavier: we'll get to it then. We'll circle back. Rachel: Okay, trailer quote. Avorie and Xavier said I don't know how to say it. Chradh Chradh Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, Garrick's Dragon. Claire: Check. Rachel: Shraken. Kate, you listen to the book. Now y you gotta tell us how to say all these dragon names. I expect you to know all the families too. Deep Trope, we said Kate: No, I can't. Rachel: Mol we said Molvic. And Claire said Saegyl so she got it right. Claire: Okay, but you guys said Saegyl but you seemed really unsure, which is why I was like, say something spicy Which came across as me making you change your answer so I feel guilty 'cause you were gonna say Saegyl. Rachel: It's fine. I well 'cause I really wanted it to be what's the first dragon? Thareux Thareux? Is that the Thareux? I wanted it to be Thareux, but when she put all the if if if she hadn't released the thirteen POVs or Claire: Yeah, maybe very different. Rachel: th thirteen dragons, I would have said that. But this made us choose and I I felt like it was a little bit like Yeah. I I did think it was Saegyl I'm good putting Molvic. That was a good one. So you got it right. Claire: Molvic played a big role in this whole the whole book. So he was in there a lot. He was everywhere. Molvic is sus. Avorie & Xavier: He was everywhere. Yes. Yeah. I feel like that's Kate: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: telling us something. Yeah, have a building a Molvic theory now. So. So many. Rachel: Yeah, we ought to talk about Molvic. okay, and then one reveal because we we chatted so much, we didn't have enough time to go in detail, so we just picked random reveals that we were hoping for. so Avorie and Xavier said Brennan Naolin and General Aetos's name. Kate and I said Mira's attempted killer or attempted assassination attempt and Brennan's love life. And Claire said which Dragon's lying. So we didn't. Claire: Nailed it. Avorie & Xavier: And she got some of those. You got at least one of those. Kate: Mm-hmm. Claire: It was a very basic prediction, but you know, it was strategic. Rachel: Yeah. I mean Brennan's Love Life, we a that was a little bit Claire: Yeah, I think you count that one. Rachel: I know, but it was like a little bit spoiled before because it was the early release, but we'll count it. We still didn't win, so that's fine. And then we d Avorie and Xavier. We didn't get either of those. That's such a bummer. Avorie & Xavier: No, we got so much of Aetos, General Aetos, Dain's dad. We got so much of him. Yeah, Rachel: Yes, yes, we need to talk about him. Kate: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: and he's still known as Daddy Aetos. Although we do feel even more convinced we know his signet. Rachel: Do you wanna share? Okay. Avorie & Xavier: No. Kate: Ha ha ha. Avorie & Xavier: I mean, we will if we get to that. But yes. We Rachel: Okay. Okay. Avorie & Xavier: don't want to derail. have a- We have a whole list of things we want to talk about. Rachel: Okay, well why don't we talk about our biggest OMG moment or our biggest reveal? yeah. Avorie & Xavier: So who officially won? Who won? Is it Claire? Or who lost? guess, yes. Rachel: Claire won. Avorie & Xavier: Good job. I think we pretty much lost. Rachel: And I actually Avorie & Xavier: Because I think you guys got half credit on the last one. Rachel: We only got half credit and you got one but you got one right on the top one. So yeah. I th I think we're Avorie & Xavier: So we lost equally much? We're tied for second place? Rachel: t we're tied for loss for losers. Kate: I like to think of it as second place. that's still a silver medal, even Avorie & Xavier: Thanks. Kate: if there were only three of us. Avorie & Xavier: I want at this moment, we now have to write a fanfic. So I think we feel like we won. Rachel: Yeah, I I'm fine taking the punishment. I think we can I think we all take our punishment and Claire gets gets to to dole it out. Claire: You guys are gonna end up reading the hopefully chapters of my book here anyway. So they'll be out. They'll be out at some point. Exactly. Exactly. Excellent. Avorie & Xavier: Yes, we are. You've read all you've read all of ours. We're definitely reading yours. That is a very weird. I'll show you mine if you show me yours feeling to it. Claire: I feel like you guys Avorie & Xavier: Normally I don't know when that's making it weird. Yes. Don't. Claire: Should we put like a two month deadline on it? Do you guys want deadlines? What is your book schedule reading look the the Rachel: will commit to finishing the book by the end of the year. I feel like that Claire: Okay, that sounds good. Rachel: is impressive Kate: Same. Rachel: with where I'm at right now. Claire: Nope, I think that sounds great. Kate: Yeah, I I can do that. Avorie & Xavier: We cannot, we can't commit to doing it. We will have it done by December 31st, but I don't think we can do it any sooner. No, we're... Okay. Rachel: I think that's fair. End of the year. Kate: Yeah. Claire: I think by the end of the year. Even yeah. Kate: So we'll have a like some some New Year like Rachel: Reveals? Kate: reveals. Yeah. We'll we'll follow up in the new year. Rachel: Alright, so should we let's talk about our biggest OMG moments. So whether this is just when your jaw hit the floor or the big reveal or something that, you know, was a theory that you had and this proved it. so Avorie and Xavier, do you guys want to start? Avorie & Xavier: So I'll go, I will say there were two, three significant like character reveals about like who someone is or isn't that they're little things, but they impact a lot of theories that are out there. And so the first is we got a little bit of background about Ridoc's family. There's all of this like theories about there, but he's just like a kid who has parents who fought all the time. It sounds like he had a pretty like normal. My parents are unhappy, I'm just trying to joke around and keep the peace. I think that's a pretty big reveal about his character and who he is without actually being that big of a reveal. I think Bodhi, what we learned about his character and in particular, I don't think he... He doesn't want Violet. But he, I think, craves that love and connection and the emotional intimacy and the being fully known and trusting that Violet and Xaden have. It's not that he wants Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Violet. He wants that type of intimate relationship. Like, he is a big romantic, I think. Rachel: Absolutely. Avorie & Xavier: So and then I think the other one that was really like, I would say my biggest fist bump moment would be at the end of the book. when Aaric's like, I'm coming for you. Rachel: Yes. Avorie & Xavier: And he's like, I mean, there Claire: So good. Avorie & Xavier: was that line in Onyx where he's like, I'll dismantle the monarchy before I join it. And I thought that that was such a standout line in Onyx. And then to get an elaboration about Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: how he isn't just kind of casually considering dismantling the monarchy if it happens to fall to him. No, he's gonna. Take it out from the inside. You're Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: burn the whole thing down. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate: Mm-hmm. I loved that. Rachel: Yeah. And there was somebody Claire: So Rachel: else who said he wanted to burn the whole thing down too. So got a little bit more of a clue about why they're teaming up they've been teaming up. Avorie & Xavier: Why there'll be brothers in the future? Why they are brothers? Rachel: yeah, good point. Avorie & Xavier: My biggest was that the dragons don't have to wait to threshing to bond. What the heck? Rachel: Yes. Avorie & Xavier: That was a pretty big one. Yes! Claire: With Imogen? Okay. Rachel: Yeah. Claire: And that's a good segue into mine Avorie & Xavier: into. Claire: because mine is about Imogen as well. And I was just like my jaw was on the floor for all of Imogen's stuff, not only her character development. Finding out that they can bond before she just got bought what? And then also the fact that we're finding out that dragons can just start anew with a new name and they can hide their identity and start over again. That this could happen to probably any dragon then. Mind blowing. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, they're Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: We can't trust anyone. Avorie & Xavier: out there getting their social security numbers and passports. They have like some fake document dealer. Yes, I have another identity identities, but I want to let Rachel and Kate go first. Yes. Good job. You're doing so well. Rachel: Well well, along with what you were saying though, Claire, did you guys pick up at the very beginning in that like dragonkind when they're talking about how it's really difficult to capture the nuances of each dragon so it's impossible to track the lineage. Avorie & Xavier: that the Kate: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: professors of Dragonkind, who's their allegiance to? Their allegiance is to the Empyrean. So they're Rachel: So the Empyrean, yeah. Yeah. Claire: Okay. Avorie & Xavier: in on the secret. They're in on the reinvention of these dragons as new people, 100%. They're doing the fake documents. Kaori's doing, here's the passport man. Rachel: Ma well, maybe. Maybe or they might just not literally not know. Claire: Or it's one of those don't ask, like just, okay, yep, sounds good. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, don't ask. Don't tell if they say their name Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: is Gleam, Kate: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: their name is Gleam. And if they're 19, they're 19. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Best part about an image is your kill counts zero. Because how else are they like we were talking about this? How would if dragons only talk to the people that they're bonded to, which came up multiple times, right? How Kate: Right. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: would Kaori even know a dragon's name unless his dragon maybe tells him? Rachel: Yes. Avorie & Xavier: And then what's going to do? Call out his dragon as big fat liar? Like, no, it's like- they don't look 19 to me. Rachel: Yeah. Claire: So Rachel, was that your OMG moment or do you have another one? Okay. Rachel: N No, I was just following up on yours. K Kate, why don't you go first? Kate: So I was surprised and like kind of it was heartwarming to hear that Sloane's dragon is the sister to Liam's dragon. and I just thought that that was really sweet and I mean that whole Sloane's whole section was was heartbreaking, but I liked that reveal. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, I mean, I don't want to call it a OMG moment, but you're so right. Like, Rebecca Yarros just like came through in that chapter with all of her like, world-wreckingness that she Emotional devastation. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, that was Avorie & Xavier: The tears. I was reading out loud to him and had to stop multiple times in that chapter to collect myself. And for him to collect himself. Rachel: Mm. Yeah, that was a tough one to read. Well, my Avorie & Xavier: She emotes a lot when she reads. do voice it. Rachel: okay. No wonder y you guys don't do audiobooks. Why would you need to? Well, my OMG moment was Rune Master because Avorie & Xavier: Thanks Rachel: you guys know, and we're gonna be getting into it. We're gonna be doing more of a deep dive into threshing day. We have fourth wing theories coming, but I've been on the internet exploring this theory of my house, my chair, my woman, and the rune breaker thing is part of it. I guarantee it. And that just like blew my mind. Avorie & Xavier: The that it's inherited, Kate: Yeah, we we're obsessed with runes. Avorie & Xavier: it's an inherited Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: gift. Rachel: did I say Rune Breaker? I meant Rune Master. Sorry. S Rune Master. Avorie & Xavier: Rune Masters. Yeah. But it's. I think Rune Masters can break the Rune. Yeah. Yeah. But it's in. Rachel: Good point. Sorry, Rune Master. Rune Master is the thing. I have it written down to Avorie & Xavier: But since it's inherited, it's not from the dragons. It's an inherited thing. Is Rachel: Yes. Avorie & Xavier: it from the gods? Rachel: That's interesting. Avorie & Xavier: And is it part of blood magic? And bloodlines? There's for sure some blood magic involved. Kate: Sounds like we have a another theory to look out for. I'm sure you guys Rachel: Ha ha ha. Kate: are gonna dig into that one later. Avorie & Xavier: for sure, for sure. Months, months. got where we're at. Spirals, remember, spirals. Same review of the book, Spirals. Rachel: Alright, let's get into our favorite POV chapters. So Avorie and Xavier, do you wanna go first on this one? Okay, Claire can go first. Avorie & Xavier: No, Claire can go first. Because she clearly has one. decide! Claire: just I think that they were all great, but Brennan's, I just love that the very first one started with all of these little breadcrumbs. There were so many different hints in there. We're gonna get to them later. I don't want to spend too much time right here on it. But like the things that I have listed were Asher being gone for extended periods of time. the bracelet that he got from him with the black bead that Mira also has that I have a big theory on. And then also Violet needing a healer is stemming another theory for me. So those are just Brennan's was just like loaded with these little things that I'm excited to get into. Avorie & Xavier: Also, I think his chapter was the funniest. We were like rolling Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: on the floor laughing. Marbh? Marbh. Yes, because the BH sound is my favorite. Yes. So funny. Kate: Which was surprising. I I did it I expected Ridoc's and Aotrom's to be the the really funny one, but you're right, Brennan's was was pretty funny. Avorie & Xavier: Yes, I would. Rachel: But it's because Ridoc's was just like slapstick comedy, which like didn't it didn't Claire: Mm-hmm. Kate: Yeah. That's not Rachel: translate well in book, I thought, I didn't think Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, I think my favorite was Imogen. Imogen's POV. There's so much in there and so many like I love how much about her family. We really understand who she is. Garrick was so dreamy. Again, had to pause and be like, that was hot. So I think that was probably my favorite. I felt like it was so like you flushed reading it. Do not deny what the important part of that chapter was. I don't know. It was it was it was extremely well done. Rebecca Yarros was on point that and Sloane's chapter was like Rebecca Yarros was on fire. Yeah. What was Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: your favorite? My favorite POV, I think actually I really liked Mira's. Rachel: Mm. Avorie & Xavier: We too. She had such middle child syndrome as a middle child. I really felt her. And I think it was my favorite chapter because like it gave such clarity around signets. And after reading that chapter, you could like identify like everyone else is like why they got their signet. Like you read Brennan's Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: and you're like, maybe this is why Claire: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: people get their signets. You read mirrors. You're like, now I know what to look for. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: And so I think that that was my favorite because it was really insightful around the signet side of things. And it wasn't like the most emotional or the, you know, most in depth other than that. But it was just like, okay. Stuff clicked into place for me. Rachel: Yeah. Kate, what about you? Kate: So Avorie and Xavier kind of touched on this already, but my favorite was Aaric's Pov for a lot of the things that you mentioned previously, of just like his explanation to his dragon of like, this is why you should trust me. This is why, like, I know you've been burnt by my bloodline before, but this is why you should trust me, this is my plan. And it was just very compelling to hear in his own words, like what. what his goal was and how, like you said, he's going to dismantle everything from the inside. and he was just so insistent to be different from his father and his brothers that I I just really enjoyed that because I love a rebel. Rachel: Yeah. I think mine was Garrick. I mean, I love Avorie & Xavier: you Rachel: Garrick, always loved Garrick, and getting more detail from his perspective and seeing his motivations, like when I first read Onyx Storm, I've really thought that he was the brother, and you guys have since convinced me otherwise. But reading this, I was like, There's no way he's the brother. And I loved the Scottish Dragon. Loved it. I cannot wait to listen to the book. Does he have the accent in the book? Like in the audio. Kate: I I don't remember hearing a Scottish accent. I don't know. Rachel: What? They specifically describe a Scottish accent for his dragon. So that would be a big miss if they don't have that in the audiobook. Kate: I I'm not listen, I am not the right person to ask for this one. Cause a lot there was so like listen, the audiobook had so many different narrators. It was like Avorie & Xavier: right. Kate: a whole slew of them that I there Rachel: Yeah. Kate: are so many voices blending together. Rachel: Okay. Well, if they don't have it, that's a bummer. But they did mention him Kate: Like every single character had a different narrator. Rachel: They mentioned his burr and how he like rolled his R's multiple times. So that's a bummer if that didn't come through. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah. No. Kate: Yeah, so I I I just I don't think that I can remember clearly at this point. It's all f like all the voices are flowing together. The only one that is really sticking out is Aotrom because his voice annoyed the shit out of me on the audio. Avorie & Xavier: My narrator made Aotrom a surfer dude from California and it was fantastic. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: Nope, that is the opposite of what this this one was like like an old craggy kind of sounding, like very deep, Rachel: Hope. Kate: but not in like a nice, soothing kind of way. I don't I did not enjoy it. Avorie & Xavier: I heard dude in my head several times when that was being read to me. Claire: That's funny. Kate: No, that's I wish that that that that that's what I was expecting. I was expecting something a little more like laid back and casual and Avorie & Xavier: playful. Kate: yeah, no, this was like a scratchy, deep, uncomfortable voice that I didn't enjoy. Avorie & Xavier: I was just saying, I'm shocked. No, no one mentioned Saegyl or Xaden's chapter because it was fun. Claire: I was fine. Rachel: Na it was good, but we get his chapters in other books, so it wasn't as revealing. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, wasn't Kate: It wasn't new in the same way. Avorie & Xavier: okay. Saegyl continues to be amazing. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Claire: Chef's kiss. That was the wrong way. Avorie & Xavier: That's like everything that everything she says is amazing. Rachel: Yeah. Claire: She just owns the place all the time. Rachel: All right, what were your favorite Easter eggs and re slash references? Claire: Rachel, I feel like you should go first because you keep going last and we don't wanna take your stuff. So go for it. Avorie & Xavier: Yes, yes, Rachel: Okay. Avorie & Xavier: go first. Rachel: Eyes here, Mary, Mairi, how do Mairi, Mairi. Eyes here, Mairi. Also, Dain's mom is alive Claire: She knew what she's doing. Rachel: and probably definitely venin. Claire: yeah. And that's all we need to say about that. Like. Kate: Absolutely. Avorie & Xavier: Well, and Dain's mom, and this is one of our theories, like wanting to know what happened to his mom is exactly why he developed the ability to read. Minds, yeah. Claire: Past memories. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah. Yeah. Kate: That makes sense? Avorie & Xavier: By touch. Kate, you want to go? Yes. Kate: Sure. So I think I favorite might not be quite the right word for this, but I did enjoy seeing Dain witness his father's bullshit. because it did seem like like he was shocked to hear his father talk that way about the marked ones. and so I I hate Dain's father, obviously. But I liked that Dain like saw his his father act that way and got that like moment of like, wait, you might be a piece of shit. And I think that helped to kind of develop Dain's character a little bit more for me. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Claire: It was so symbolic when he chose the dragon that he wanted versus the one that his dad wanted. I like, Yeah, go Dain. Kate: Right. Exactly. Yeah. I know. 'Cause like Dain has like definitely not been a character that I enjoyed in a lot of the the books. He was annoying, but I don't know, this I don't want to say that it redeemed him in my eyes, but it gave his character a little bit more depth, so that so that I'm not quite as annoyed with him. Rachel: Yes. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, I think it really set up his ability to have a redemption arc Particularly Sloane Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Sloane's chapter To have a redemption arc, but when he's like shit now, I gotta go turn myself in I'm like that's so Rachel: No. Ugh. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: When he said that, it's like, no. What are you doing? Avorie & Xavier: I thought that was such like knowing that he said he wouldn't he wouldn't have stepped in for violet and then Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: he did he did interfere for Sloane it was like the right person will change everything everything and Claire: Mm-hmm. Rachel: Yeah. Hmm. Good point. Avorie & Xavier: I think like and that so we know that happens right before like well not right before but like a couple weeks before he ends up Violet's tortured, and they split and they go to Rachel: Yes. Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: Aretia and he leaves with them. And it was like, how much of his decision to really do what he did in Iron Flame and go was because he realized in that moment that some rules are worth breaking. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Also, while we're on the topic, you said about Dain's dragon and choosing the one that wasn't the one his dad wanted. Stop me if anybody has this that they want to bring up later, but does his dad ride a green dragon when we all thought he rode a red dragon? Avorie & Xavier: This was a huge week. We lost 30 minutes. Yes, this is why it took us forever because we don't know that dragon's name. We've never heard that dragon and we know that like Saegyl says, you're going to bond a red one. Like she knew that Liam was getting a red, you know, so it's like the dragons just because like they we think of them as separate by color. It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have influence and. And we know that there's like breeds, but then there's dens. And I thought dens Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: were like based on your horns, like, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: because your tail is a choice. Your color is your breed. Your den I thought was determined by like your horn shape. So Rachel: Right. Avorie & Xavier: maybe you could be in a den with other dragons of other colors, maybe? I don't know. Rachel: No way. Avorie & Xavier: But you definitely could be bonded to a dragon of a different color as we know, like you could be mated to them and you can they obviously Rachel: yeah. Avorie & Xavier: they all like talk amongst themselves. Rachel: I see what you're saying, like because like because they could get married then they would be in the same den, so they would cross over colors. Avorie & Xavier: I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. We spent a lot of time and we don't know. So was it his red dragon was talking to someone else and was making arrangements for a green the way Saegyl as a blue was making arrangements for greens and reds and whoever else or was it a green dragon? It would be so ironic too for him to be like, don't bond a red if he was bonded to a red, because it's like the peak hypocrisy, right? Like, that would be so on brand. I'm cool. Yes. Kate: Yeah, I was gonna say that's very fitting. Claire: That's one hundred percent that's what I thought happened. I w didn't even question it. I didn't ever once think that he had a green dragon. I thought he had a red and he was being a hypocrite. Yeah. Rachel: Mm, okay. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah. Kate: Because he's a bitch. Claire: That's a better word. Yeah. Rachel: I mean it's shocking that he has a red and not an orange. Avorie & Xavier: We love Kate. But this book showed us that orange dragons are like not any particular type of evil. They're just like unpredictable. Rachel: Yeah, that's true. Avorie & Xavier: This book made me feel better about orange dragons in general. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: I love these orange dragons. Rachel: All right, who who's who's up next with their favorite Easter egg? Avorie & Xavier: I think Claire. Claire: I can go. I just really liked reading all of the foreshadowing for their signets. Like Xaden literally uses shadows to help him in his maneuver before he has the signet of shadow wielding or Brennan with the healing, or I I don't know, like they they're all escaping my brain at this exact second, but every single one of them had this this strong mentioning of how they needed that skill and that was just like so masterfully written. And I just was eating it up. Rachel: That was so good. Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: And an image in wanting to erase Claire: I know those are necessarily Easter eggs, but Kate: Yeah, that was fun. Avorie & Xavier: Garrick's memories. Rachel: yeah. She also it felt like she o it also hinted at her earth bu yeah yes Right Avorie & Xavier: because was that tree petrified before? Did she petrify it in that moment? Claire: The tree, the match of red tree. We all clocked that. Rachel: Yes Claire: 'Cause she was already channeling. Rachel: Mm-hmm Avorie & Xavier: Yes? I think yes. We're going with yes in that moment. She turned Claire: Hundred percent. Avorie & Xavier: it. She didn't even realize, just like Violet didn't realize the first time she wielded Rachel: Right. Avorie & Xavier: 100%. Yeah. Which does give them to my reveal that some dragons hate Navarrians. Rachel: Yes mm-hmm Claire: Yes. Nice. That was a good one. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, that was like, I'm like, hooo! Like legitimately, like, Navarian! Stop being friends! Die, Navarrian, die! I do voices. You should do Claire: Ha ha ha. Avorie & Xavier: Aotrom's voice so Kate knows that it can be funny. Rachel: Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Avorie & Xavier: Maybe when we're done recording. We'll do a reading for her after we're done recording. Rachel: think I think you should Kate: Yes, please. Rachel: do the audiobook narrations when when your book comes out. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah. Snaffles. God, I really want you to narrate Snaffles. sorry. Mine was probably that the professors of Dragonkind all have to have they're only eligible to become a professor of Dragonkind if you have a projection signet. And your allegiance is first and foremost to the Empyrean, not Navarre. And Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: that just made everything like it just framed everything differently for me. So I thought that was really... Well, and that Kaori thinks the stuff with the marked ones is bullshit. Thanks. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: So make it you reread Kaori throughout the entire that we got Kaori first name Valen. Rachel: right. Yeah. Kate: Mm. Rachel: All right, most heartbreaking moment or POV, Avorie and Xavier, won't we stay with you guys? Avorie & Xavier: I mean, is there is there there it's Sloane my gosh, Sloane. And I think a lot of people are going to like we cried. So like I really cried a lot in that chapter. And I think the the very real struggle with mental health and, you know, she has kind of this passive suicidal ideation. If you know a young person who's walked through something like that, you know, being 20 years old and being so alone. And even though she has so many people who clearly care about her, not feeling safe to even like tell anyone, like that hits so close to home. Given that we know someone who kind of was at that same age and struggled in that way. it was like there was like such a relief. that came at the end of that chapter when she had that moment of like, it was really, really, it's good. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: was heartbreaking in the best possible way. It was heartbreaking in a way that makes you a more compassionate person, which is the best possible kind of heartbreak. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. And also like the playlist that Rebecca Yarros put out for each character. And I mean we knew her we knew Sloane's was gonna be heartbreaking from the quote and the music before, but when you just have the full context, it was like Ugh. Yeah. Kate: And also just a quick shout out because we are recording this in September, which is National Suicide Prevention Awareness Month. So I do want to give a shout out to the suicide prevention hotline 988. So if you or Avorie & Xavier: Thank you. Yes. Kate: anyone you know is struggling, help is out there and the the hotline is nine eight eight. Claire: Sloane's was definitely, I feel like we'd all agree, the most heartbreaking. Avorie & Xavier: you Claire: I also thought that Dain's was like in ways seeing how much he just wants to be a little Labrador retriever and do good for daddy. And we know how much his dad sucks. And that was just a little bit heartbreaking to read. But we also know he overcomes it, so that changed things a little as well. Rachel: Well, it was also like very obviously such an abusive relationship. Like how he's just manipulating him in Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Using his manipulation signet. Yeah, the line words like his face return to normal. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Like I have him like. Kind of like where vampires look into your eyes and do like their thing. Do the Jedi mind trick thing. Yeah, like it Kate: So like glamour or yeah, all those things. Avorie & Xavier: felt like he was, I don't know, doing something. Yes. Rachel: Yes. Especially when he was saying like that Wake when Dain was thinking about how he's like such a good person and a good father at that Yes. Avorie & Xavier: huh. Which seems so out of character for the conversation they were having and the way he had his hands on Dain the whole time. He Rachel: I didn't catch that. Kate: Mm. Avorie & Xavier: was like like this the whole time. Rachel: Wait, now we need to Kate: I'm Rachel: go and reread Claire: Dude. Rachel: the entire series every time that Aetos touches somebody. Avorie & Xavier: Maybe this with Dain comes from this with dad. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: It makes it makes so much sense though, because how else would such a huge piece of shit get people to like him? Avorie & Xavier: How else do you get all of these kids killed at Athebyne and six months later you're commanding General? Rachel: Yeah. Kate: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: You're promoted and in charge of not only the riders, but all the other kids at Basgiath. No. Yeah, no, I mean, we're going to have to read that scene a couple of times, but like, I really do think when when his hands were on him and what the instructions he was giving him when his hands were on him, like, you know, report to me any evidence that they are breaking codex. I think I think Dain may have been compelled. Rachel: Okay, there was another line there too Avorie & Xavier: No. Rachel: about how he always hears things he doesn't want him to hear and not the things that he would want him to hear. Like Avorie & Xavier: Yes. Rachel: what's that? I because I was like, what what pr power is this? Is is he just straight up inntinnsic? Avorie & Xavier: Hmm Claire: off topic. Well I just like while we're sitting here trying Rachel: No, go ahead. Claire: to figure out the questions the answers if they were questions, I think somebody might have this on their list. You have it at the bottom. Okay, the marked ones say we don't want people to know about the special benefit we get from our our mar our tattoos or whatever. And then we're left assuming that because that was the year before and then the year after we get the ordinance saying that you can't gather in three we're in groups of three but that I think that's red herring that there's some other special ability but why would we not know? Why would they not tell us? Rachel: I think it blocks I think it blocks Signets. I think it blocks all Signets, not just Melgren's. Kate: That would be insane. But so cool. Avorie & Xavier: right. Rachel: Or protection in some way, 'cause he was like, We're safe once there's three of us here. That's specifically what they said. Claire: Avorie, you look like you were gonna say something else. What were you about to say? Rachel: sorry. Avorie & Xavier: Well, I'm just having charmed flashbacks now the power of three. Kate: Ha ha ha. Avorie & Xavier: We kind of talked about it like I do think that those runes because when we were doing our blood magic, it was talking about how it protects your blood line like runes can be used to protect your blood line. And there's something about the stones and being activated and like. And they were in the rune master was involved. The last master was clearly involved in this and didn't it say that the runes were shiny or something? Rachel: Yes. No, no, it said that the relics yeah, the relics were like glim glimmering or something like that. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah. So I don't know. also, did you guys see that there was, you know, that talked about the twins in Xaden's year? Rachel: Yes. Claire: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: And the one has that name, Cerella, C-E-R-E-L-L-A, which is the same name as the Nielwart that published the notices in 628 Rachel: So Avorie & Xavier: about the Treaty of Aretia and that Aretia had been burned by dragon fire. Same first name. And we only get it in Rachel: So what does that mean? Avorie & Xavier: Iron Flame. Well, it's a Tyrrish name, I think, maybe. So I think it continues to connect Jesinia to Tyrrish heritage. Rachel: Did the twins only make it one year? Avorie & Xavier: We don't hear about them anywhere else. I did double check their name. Yes. Rachel: We hear about it twice in the book. And the and the way that they talk about like the two orange what did they say? The two orange dragons, right? Like are assuming they're looking Avorie & Xavier: that they were mated and they were looking for the twins. And then I think there's in when Sawyer in Sawyer's chapter, I think the red and the orange that were waiting together and he and Trina came into the clearing together and she bonded the orange and he was bonding the red like they were and the red said, well, you weren't available like weren't available yet. So they were waiting to like bond in the same year, I think, because they they were mated. That was just, I mean, it wasn't confirmed, but that's what it sounds like. Rachel: I was thinking I was trying to figure out if I was trying to figure out if when they mentioned the two the two that they that were mates looking for twins and referenced those two, if the if they were trying to imply that they had bonded those two the year before and those two didn't make it. So now they're looking for a new set. Avorie & Xavier: maybe. Yeah. I could see that. Yeah, it was a little that was a little there's a lot of twins. But also on the heartbreaking is that like Sawyer was picked. But and then so like all the other dragons ignored him because he was already picked and Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: he had already been. And this whole thing where the dragons are picking early is just like mind blowing. Claire: Okay, so Rachel: Mm-hmm. Claire: that was like I I feel like the prearranged bonds, I was talking about that with ja with Jack Barlowe and how it seemed like potentially Jack already knew who he was gonna bond because he was a bad dude and so a bad dragon chose him. And Rachel: Mm. Claire: we don't know that is true, but we do know that good dragons are choosing good people. So it seems like it could go both ways. Avorie & Xavier: Well, and they're choosing blood and Rachel: that's interesting. Avorie & Xavier: like, who's the matchmaker on the bad dragon side? Like the human dragon, like who would have told him daddy Aetos general Aetos no Claire: Could be. Avorie & Xavier: name, no name Aetos. Claire: The one that died Varrish not or Varrish could be one. Or the other one that Avorie & Xavier: But he wasn't there. Like he wouldn't he wasn't there. Jack's first year. we don't know when it was free. Rachel: Yeah. Pancheck. Claire: yeah. Avorie & Xavier: It could have been arranged a year to apparently two years in advance. Claire: Check. Who knows? Avorie & Xavier: I don't know if he it to Threshing, I'm going to bond him. He may have done that before he got across the parapet. Claire: So do we each want to start like going around doing like one theory and sharing kind of where we've spiraled? Well, mine was that one with the pre-arranged Rachel: Yeah, Claire, you go. You go. Claire: bonds. And then the Avorie & Xavier: No! Claire: other one that I wanted to talk about on here, though I have a billion of them, is they make it such a point about how Brennan is a healer, and then they say, or how Violet needs a healer. And you know, and then he ends up being a healer, which shows that his need is to protect his little sister. And so it makes me feel like all of these signets are around Violet. Yes, Avorie, I saw your hand up. Avorie & Xavier: I would like to point out that he's a mender, not a healer. There's a significant difference. Claire: Mender, sorry. There is. There is. I am so sorry. There is. And I knew that. I knew that. that he needed, yeah. Okay, sorry. So that he was a mender. And like all of these signets, I feel like when you go through them, they're all in a way they complement and help Violet. Now obviously we all know that in the end they're all gonna use their powers to like help each other and bond together and each of them. And then like Sloane, Sloane, the sh their dragon says, like, we need you. Like we you in order to win this, we're gonna need your power. And I just feel like if I were to do another reread, I'm gonna find some more stuff about that. But just like being able to support Violet and their these dragons knowing more and choosing riders with that will have specific signets and that kind of thing. Rachel: Mm. Avorie & Xavier: So do you think that even though like this was, so do you think that the dragons knew that she would cross the Parapet Claire: Yes. Avorie & Xavier: even in Xaden year? Like even in Brennan's year when she was still a child? Claire: Yes, 'cause like Andarna knew. Okay, I I guess Yeah, I I see what you're saying. Probably not. I'll have to think on that a little bit, but maybe. Kate: I I like the I I like the idea that the dragons have some kind of foresight that they're they're playing some kind of like really long game and Rachel: Mm. Kate: they have an end goal in mind that we haven't seen yet. I do really like that idea. Avorie & Xavier: I like the idea that they have a seer and his name is Melgren. because Melgren had his signet this whole time. And if he's a rebellion asset, he's seeing all these things, telling the dragons and Codagh is in the perfect position to be like, listen up you. Claire: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate: So yeah, Claire, I want you to Avorie & Xavier: like that. Claire: Sony, I'll be working on that one. Kate: to think more about that one because I'm very invested in it now. When I when I saw Avorie & Xavier: Bye! Kate: that in the notes, I was like, I wanna hear more about this because I really love that idea. Claire: And I think if I went I Avorie & Xavier: Thank Claire: need to pull specific quotes, I have them highlighted. I just didn't review them right before this episode. So yeah, I'll keep working on it. Rachel: This is our this is our initial reaction episode. The deep dive is when we come with Kate: Yes. Rachel: the facts. This is just this is just when we throw Avorie & Xavier: Yes. Rachel: it all throw it all out there. Claire: Yes. Kate: We literally all finished reading with in the last twenty four hours. We have not had a lot of time to Yeah. So Rachel: Started and finished Started and finished. Claire: The last six hours, yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Some of us finish reading within 24 minutes of... Rachel: Ha ha ha. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah. Kate: Yes, so Rachel: Alright, so I I'm gonna jump to one of my theories, which is and I didn't come up with this theory in the first place. I've seen it on the internet before that Imogen is Aaric's, I don't know maybe you guys came up with it, honestly. I don't know. That Imogen is Aaric's sister and she dyes her hair pink to hide her heritage. That's like a theory that's out there. And I think that in this book, we pretty much get proof of that. And I actually did come with receipts. So from Garrick. Avorie & Xavier: This is our theory. No, this is not our theory. We debunked this. We said she is dyeing her hair. Yes, but we specifically said she's not related to Aaric. yeah. Claire: Yeah, Xavier, you definitely said that she's not. Rachel, keep going. Kate: Well let's let's hear Rachel's rebuttal potentially. Rachel: Well here here's here's why I think she is. Okay. So from Garrick and Imogen's POV, it seems like Garrick is Navarian, not Tyrrish. And Imogen considers Deaconshire Province to be home. And so I consulted the map, which you guys know I can't read a map very well, but I did my best. And it is not in Tyrrendor. It's a territory directly south of Basgiath, between Basgiath and Tyrrendor, bordering Calldyr. Where Well who lives in Calldyr? Avorie & Xavier: It's clean. Rachel: The Royals. And we learn that Imogen and Garrick's parents were friends when they were growing up. Then there was an very interesting interaction between Imogen and Aaric, which is what really sealed the deal for me. And she sort of sarcar she sort of sarcastically calls him Aaric, like I know that's not your real name. And he responds with Cardulo. implying that it's not her real name. So I think that they know that they are siblings. Avorie & Xavier: So the one thing that I think is really interesting about this is that Xaden's POV proved that the bloodlines aren't how they're represented. Right. When Saegyl is like, if that's what your mother told you. Grandmother. If that's what your grandmother told you. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kate: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: Which is like, yeah, no. It's he's not your great uncle. He's your grandpa. Like Rachel: Uh-huh. Avorie & Xavier: I know what's up. So they're definitely, you know, think we Claire we went down a deep, deep rabbit hole of like, does Fen have extra kids? So, you know, illegitimate heirs or illegitimate bloodlines is really common in history. I mean, maybe Claire: I did not catch okay. Avorie & Xavier: maybe their cousins. Rachel: Who do you think are cousins? Claire: I didn't catch the sarcastic name thing. I'm gonna have to go check that out. Was that an Imogen? Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, it didn't hit me that way either. Claire: I'm not saying that you didn't, I just I think that's a good catch. I wanna go reread it. It is Aaric's. Okay. Rachel: It was in Aryx chapter. Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: I remember this exchange. Yeah, I remember the exchange, but it didn't hit me that way. But that's an interesting read on it. Yeah. I do think Rachel: I mean Avorie & Xavier: they have matching eyes. They do not have matching eyes. That's the whole point. Her eyes are pale. His are emerald. Her eyes are pale green. Claire: If they had a different parent, then that would make sense. That would make sense if because she has light green eyes. Kate: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: But we also yes. Why are why do you insist? Claire: I think that checks out that they're half siblings because their eyes are half the right color. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: I don't even like you right now. Green is recessive enough that like. There are so many other people with green eyes. We literally did a whole post on it. I'm sorry that you don't pay attention. I never agree. What I think, Aaric's chapter proves is that there were three brothers and I think there's a sister because when he says. Rachel: Her name is Imogen. Avorie & Xavier: I think there's Kate: Ha ha. Avorie & Xavier: a younger sister. Let me clarify. I think there's a younger sister or possibly an older sisters between him and the twins, but yeah. When he says he's coming for his whole family, if he was coming for his dad in Halden, which appears to be the only people left because his mom is dead and and Alic is dead and it was a three brothers. But if he was just coming for his dad in Halden, why would he say his whole family? There's more. There's more in the family. if you're saying that he's related to Imogen, so is he also coming for Imogen? Like, that doesn't feel... But I think he has Rachel: I don't no, I think that they're on the same side. I think they're Avorie & Xavier: a sister. I think he has an acknowledged royal sister. And also, there are three brothers in the fables of the Barren, and Aaric's last name is Baran. Rachel: Yeah, what's up with that? I thought his last name was Tauri. Kate: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Well, Kate: Same. Avorie & Xavier: is this a mother's name situation, like where they're taking Rachel: Mm. Avorie & Xavier: mom's surname and dad's surname? Or like, what's going on? Claire: 'Cause he was with the mom more because he wasn't the heir or the spare and so he got to ha spend more time with his mom, so maybe Avorie & Xavier: I mean, but Alic has the same, I mean, Alic's last name is Baran too. Or Baran, possibly, I guess it could be Baran, sorry. What did they say in the book, Kate? Rachel: Yes We just keep quizzing her. We qu we keep quizzing her, she's no clue. Kate: Guys, I cannot tell you. If you want me to make shit up, I will, Avorie & Xavier: Hahaha! Kate: but I cannot tell you with any certainty. Avorie & Xavier: We I love it I would love it if you'd make shit up Rachel: right, Avorie and Xavier, is there one that you want to bring up? Avorie & Xavier: I'm trying to look through all of our sticky notes because I was all set up to take notes in a physical book. Okay, let's talk about. Yeah. So we think it is very important, although we have not yet figured out why. Dain did not appear to bleed. He definitely did not bleed on Claire: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: page and was the only one Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: that did not bleed on page. He did bleed in Unnbriel so he bled after. So this isn't like he's a venin and doesn't bleed thing. And he did the very like the very last part of his chapter, it says he hits his chin at the same place that we know he has a scar that is typically covered Rachel: Mm. Avorie & Xavier: by his beard. So it would imply that maybe that happened. I think it was a significant thing Claire: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: that there was no blood. He got a welt on his hands and he banged up his chin. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Claire: It even says 'cause his hands they could have been bleeding. So I was like, I bet his hands are bleeding. And then she specifies, Nope, just welts. Avorie & Xavier: Yes. Rachel: Hmm. Kate: Yeah. Which is crazy because the impact of that. Avorie & Xavier: And everyone else, it was like very clear and specific. Yes. Now, and again, we know that he bleeds later. Like, I think we see him bleed in a couple in all three books, maybe. But for sure, he bleeds in Onyx. But yeah, like why? It's like they were expecting it. Rachel: Why didn't he bleed when every single other person bled? And why didn't the dragon care? Avorie & Xavier: During threshing. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: And is it related to his dad and who his dad is? Because like, if you're bleed, if you're making people bleed or wanting to see people bleed for a reason, is his dad nullifying whatever that reason is? I mean, is it to check the bloodline? Is it, you know, like, do they need to send the blood to know that it really is or whatever happened? It kind of appears that that wasn't necessary for Dain. And there's gotta be there's definitely there's definitely spirals but really feels like there's gotta be a clear lore reason why. Well, I'm blanking on Dain's dragons name. Cath. Yeah. Why? Why? Cath didn't care. Like, Cath was like, whatever. Whatever. I'm bonding. Rachel: Cath. The only one we can pronounce. Kate: I I love the idea that I love the idea that they didn't or that they they have to check the blood to confirm the bloodline because apparently dragons are all liars and they all lie about who they are and so they're like, Well Avorie & Xavier: Well, and like. Rachel: So they're just doing DNA tests? Avorie & Xavier: And like, Molvic comes around every time someone of nobility is potentially available and is only Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: looking for nobility, but didn't come around Imogen, so. Probably not royal blood. that was the other theory we have is that the blues only show up when there is royal blood at Threshing. Rachel: That makes sense. That makes sense. I mean Imogen was also already Kate: Mm-hmm. 'Cause they are rare. Rachel: bonded, to be fair. That's probably why Molvic didn't show up. Avorie & Xavier: That's true. maybe, Kate: Mm. Avorie & Xavier: maybe. hey, here to help you, Claire: Good point. Avorie & Xavier: Rachel, maybe she had to bond before threshing to ensure that Molvic didn't bond her. Rachel: That's good point, 'cause she definitely wouldn't have bonded Glane if by choice. Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Because because Glane was a was a cheater-cheater pumpkin eater and said I bonded you anyway I just thought it was really funny which dragon was it that commented on one of the like you coagulate quickly Rachel: Yes. Claire: Yes, I was trying Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: Yes. I d I noted that too. I don't remember which one it was. Claire: that's great. I think it was Mira. No, it was a g Rachel: I might have been Teine. Claire: Seems a little early though. I th it was Rhi. I just knew it was a female. Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: No, think maybe was it Rhi? I think it was re in time. Yeah. Yeah, Rachel: Mm. Kate: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: because it was like a it was like a she took it as a compliment initially. And then she was like, you're being sarcastic. Rachel: Yeah, Rhi having not an ounce of sarcasm in her body, like that was Kate: I know. That one was that one was funny too. I mean, because like if that dragon wasn't being sarcastic, you know, Rachel: Yeah. Kate: that would have been a very different conversation. Claire: To be able to characterize thirteen humans and thirteen dragons so well in a hundred is it hundred twenty eight pages, whatever it is, is truly a superpower. Like Rebecca Yarros is just like so good at her craft at what she two hundred pages at what she does. Like that's amazing. Yeah, that's all. Avorie & Xavier: I mean, to take Sloane from a kind of side character to like you're crying over her in a chapter is nuts. To use this book to make us want love stories between Garrick and Imogen so bad and Dain and Sloane, because we all agree like Dain and Sloane are... Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: It's the way she knows he protects her body. Like when he pushes her out of the way and then he's holding her. And to make us want that going into a book where we know Violet and Xaden are going to be physically separated from each other, brilliant. Rachel: Yeah, that is brilliant. That is brilliant Kate: Mm. Rachel: because we need some spicy scenes and it's probably not gonna be from them except for dream scenes. Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah. Yeah, Kate: Mm. Avorie & Xavier: I mean, I think she did a brilliant job making us care about the characters in the next book when we are probably going to get less of the characters we have been following because their storylines are going to be so spread out. it's an expanding world with, you know, we started getting additional POVs at the end of Onyx. So Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: to tell the expanding world story, we're probably They're not all in the same, you know, death academy. you? so she had previously said at the interview that at Apollycon that she needed to write these stories to help her get back into the headspace of writing book four. Do you think that means that everyone who had a POV chapter is getting a POV chapter in book four? Because she needed to get into Claire: That'll be sweet. Rachel: that would be amazing. Avorie & Xavier: their heads. Rachel: That would be amazing and it would make sense because we're like fully in war now and that's obviously Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: how she writes like battle scenes, but also we have people on opposite sides of the war. So they're Avorie & Xavier: Yes. Rachel: not gonna be interacting. Avorie & Xavier: Yes. she and she had said that that like, as this gets bigger, you have to be able to you can't, Violet can't be everywhere. And Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: also, like, I think one of the main things that happens with Violet is Violet pays attention to what Violet thinks is important, which means there's so much that's happening that she's not paying attention to. Because what you pay attention to determines what you're missing. And Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: there's so much that she's missing. And now people who have other priorities could be telling parts of the story and bringing light to things that we wouldn't otherwise have paid attention to. Rachel: And did you see her interview? I only saw a clip, but her interview last night where she said she confirmed that Violet's a unrelatable narrator. Avorie & Xavier: She said that a couple times. I Rachel: Okay. Avorie & Xavier: think we have to, I think we have to like, do we mean like, what do we mean by an unreliable narrator? Rachel: She said actually well she specifically said Jesinia. She said that we can trust this book. This is the only book that we can trust because of who wrote it. And she like read yeah. Claire: Because it's not written by the scribes, yeah. Avorie & Xavier: So, but not an unreliable narrator in the sense that purposely deceiving the reader. More an unreliable narrator because, yeah. So. Rachel: No, I sh it wasn't about that. Yeah. It but I mean Jesinia Claire: I don't think so. No. Rachel: might be purposely deceiving the nar the reader. Avorie & Xavier: One would think that if what Jesinia was doing was transcribing that Violet would then read the transcription to ensure its correctness. but it is translated. Yes. And we don't know if Violet is still alive. Well, who was telling the story? But she could have told the story in one language and then just send you and then die and then Jesinia you translated. Yeah. OK. Yes, it's hypothetically possible. Having read this, so we are going to the Threshing Day event, we'll be at the Q &A. And if we get a chance to ask a question, what would you ask having read Threshing Day? Rachel: Hmm, what question? Well, I'm going to circle back to the theory that I s was talking about at the beginning with the Rune Master because they use the word weaves. at the very beginning, when they're talking about dragonkind and they're talking about the symbiote symbiotic relationship, they use the specifically the word weaves the wards, which implies to me that the wards are runes. I think that they've kind of hinted at that, but I don't know if they've confirmed that they're specifically runes on the on the ward stones. so I think I would ask her. Avorie & Xavier: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Claire: Mm, they are. Rachel: Why? Avorie & Xavier: you Rachel: Nope, never mind. I'm my brain's exploding. Avorie & Xavier: What? Rachel: I'm I'm I'm trying to connect it because like basically my mind's bl blowing up right now because of the whole Rune Master thing. And the idea that like are dragons the only ones that have the power, like strong enough power to fuel those runes. And that's why only Navarre has the wards versus gryphons, who also have access to make runes. They have they have the gryphon riders can make runes, so they can they have the power, but they don't have wards. Avorie & Xavier: Well, and this is where I think ultimately the one potential ending for the series is that they have to build the wardstones the way they were always meant to be. that so we no no no no listen because Rachel: But they have wardstones, don't they have a wardstone and poor meal? Avorie & Xavier: our no they just had the luminary and why would they have a luminary? Rachel: they had the luminary. Avorie & Xavier: But so like One of the things that we have talked about, one of our theories is that actually the wards basically instead of being something that blocks certain types of magic could be something that spews ambient magic essentially and makes magic available to everyone by like projecting it out into the world the way it projects wards instead of projecting wards it could project magic into the world. So then Rachel: You think that's what the ward stone does? Avorie & Xavier: It could hypothetically and then there would be no need to draw from the ground because there would be ambient magic available to you without having to bond a magical creature. It doesn't do it. Right. Rachel: But it doesn't do that. Right. It's the opposite of that right now. It's like keeping it in Avorie & Xavier: So like you'd have to change the runes. But it's controlled by the runes, right? Because Sawyer melts the one rune and then the flyer magic works. So the right runes in theory could allow the venin to sustain. their lives while not drawing from the earth while also blocking their ability to do magic. So Venin could live under the wards without being a threat. And without having to continue to draw without losing their soul. Rachel: Hmm. Well, I think what I would ask her is why do gryphons bond humans? Because she has on page why dragons bond humans, but we'd never see why gryphons bond humans. And I think it would give us a clue about all of this. Avorie & Xavier: Well, as you know, we think the gryphons are the key to everything because one thing that stood out to me and it came back to this was that when that one dragon incinerates everyone, it incinerates the humans, but it also incinerates their weapons, which means dragon fire is hot enough to melt steel or whatever their weapons are made of. But you need a luminary to create the alloy because what does the alloy have in it? that is able to withstand dragon fire, dragon eggshells. Rachel: Dragon eggshells. Avorie & Xavier: And so the ward, so the ward stones can sustain dragon fire, right? They don't melt under seven dragons, right? Like seven Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: dragons can can blow on it at the same time because it has enough dragon egg in it that you need a luminary to get it to heat. But I also think it's really important that mind work works on venin and gryphons don't have mind work, but fliers do. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: So the fliers who the mind work is arguably the most dangerous of the signets or of gifts, right? And even the, like, what is the only type of signets that are, like, are killed off in Navarre is mind work type signets, inntinnsic Rachel: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: type signets. And so like, that's what the gryphons are getting out of this, being able to bond and use mind work signets on. And we still don't know whether venin get mind work Signets in balance or not. So there's a potential that gryphons can give fliers mind work Signets and not give it to venin, or there's also the potential that venin have mind work Signets, which is fascinating. But we also know fliers have turned. Rachel: Oh we do? Avorie & Xavier: Uh-huh. That's an epigraph about them getting recruited. Yeah. Rachel: fliers are recruited to become venin? Wow, I never noticed that one. That's kind of crazy. Avorie & Xavier: We didn't either until we deep dived the iron flame epigraphs. But anyway, yes. Claire: Can you ask if we should I guess I might get in submit questions too in Seattle, but can we just be like, hey, is it intentional that Dain didn't bleed? Like I felt that Rachel: Yes Avorie & Xavier: Yes. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: great point, yes. Avorie & Xavier: That's yes. Also, I really just want to know if gryphons are born or hatched, because is the gryphon Claire: Yes. Avorie & Xavier: eggshell being part of an alloy something that is? Kate: Mm. Rachel: Mm. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah. Kate: Yeah, that's a good question. Knowing Rachel: That's interesting. Kate: how important the dragon eggshells are. Avorie & Xavier: Right, but that's right. Did you guys get your Threshing days? Rachel: Yes, I got two. They were both somewhat damaged, but I'm dealing with it. It's fine. Claire: No. Rachel: It's they're not that bad, but I'm just annoyed because they bought they boxed it up with some other stuff that I ordered in other orders. And I'm like, why? Why would you do that? Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, that's that nice. Claire: Also, mine is not iridescent. It is just silver. Anyone else have that? I guess on Avorie & Xavier: Yeah, it's like, it's, Claire: camera it looks iridescent, but it's not. Kate: It does Avorie & Xavier: it's. Kate: I was gonna say it looks a little bit on camera. Rachel: Yeah, it's just silver. Claire: So that must be what it Avorie & Xavier: Ours definitely... Claire: was. It's on camera, it looks like it. Rachel: I think it's just silver. Avorie & Xavier: It's not any more iridescent. Claire: Mm-hmm. Avorie & Xavier: It's the exact same as what the bottom of Onyx is. Claire: Which I'm not complaining. Rachel: Yeah. Claire: This is probably the most beautiful book I own, straight up. But like like with the Rachel: I mean I like the color. I still we still got the color. Claire: The color inside. And the little dragons in the bottom being the color of the dragon down here. Avorie & Xavier: Yes! Claire: Being the color of the dragon that it's about. That's cool. Rachel: I didn't Avorie & Xavier: know if you guys Kate: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: even on the Kindle Rachel: that is cool. Avorie & Xavier: on the the little dragons at the head of each chapter were in color even on Kindle even though the big illustrations were in gray or black and Claire: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: white the Rachel: I didn't notice that. Yeah. Claire: My Kindle's just black and white, Kate: Yeah. I Claire: so I don't think I had that option. Avorie & Xavier: No, I don't have a fancy Kindle either. Rachel: It is really pretty. Kate: I didn't get a copy yet, but Rachel: Well so Kate, if you order it now I don't what was it? They were gonna be out of the what color? The c i these pages wouldn't be colored, but the these pages would be? Is that how it would work? Avorie & Xavier: The deluxe are still in stock. Kate: I was planning to just go to I was gonna go to a a local bookshop and just see whatever they had. Avorie & Xavier: I checked this morning and bookshop.org does have the deluxe edition still available if you're not able to find the deluxe edition locally. Rachel: Right, any last thoughts on the book? Avorie & Xavier: If you are a fourth wing fan, this book is absolutely amazing and you are going to spiral. And I don't say that lightly because I came into it super suspicious of whether or not this was going to be deep, deep lore. And yeah, theories for days, people. It's it's awesome. I would say once you see how what people want and need translates into signets, it really makes you question why does someone need to control the tides or breathe underwater? Rachel: Hm? Claire: Trolling the tides was wild. Avorie & Xavier: And also how far Kate: Ooh, good question. Avorie & Xavier: back does the Sorrengail line go? Rachel: Yes, Avorie & Xavier: More please. Mother, feed us. Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: Well and did you catch that line? Claire: My last Rachel: Did you catch that line also about how Asher's family was just as powerful in the scribe quadrant? The word powerful was used. Avorie & Xavier: Colonel Daxton's guide to excelling in the scribe quadrants? Yes. Rachel: I know, but the word powerful. Powerful. What do you mean powerful? You're a scribe. What does that mean? Avorie & Xavier: Well, you know the scribes have all the power. Kate: Knowledge is power. Rachel: Yeah. Avorie & Xavier: Final version approval. Dad always said the scribes have all the power. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Claire: my final thought on this is that I I'm gonna make a reel on this too, but I need to up issue an apology to Rebecca Yarros for referring to this book as a fruit cup, because it is not a fruit cup. It is a whole damn meal. and so I am sorry, Rebecca Kate: Ha ha ha. Claire: Yarros. that's all. That's all. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate? Kate: Yeah, I I agree. I was not convinced that this a book this length was going to pack that much of a punch. I thought it was just going to be a breadcrumb on you know, to to feed us as we wait for more. and it did do that, of course, but it was there's so much packed into this sh short number of pages. and it was just so much fun to see all the different personalities come to life and to get all of these little nuggets of information that all of us are going to be spiraling about for quite a while. Rachel: Totally agree. Avorie & Xavier: Yeah. Rachel: Totally agree. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us on the podcast today. This was such a fun 24 hours with you guys from the party to the like frantic sort of buddy read Avorie & Xavier: Yeah Rachel: to recording today. And you know, of course, you're always welcome to come back on. We're going to be deep diving threshing day, exact dates, TBD. But if you're listening to this and you need more threshing day, Make sure that you're following along, subscribing on your favorite podcast platform because we'll be releasing that in the next few weeks. All right. Well, thank you again for coming on the pod and for our listeners. See you soon. Claire: Thank you for having us. Avorie & Xavier: Thank you. Thank you. We'll come back anytime. Kate: Bye. Avorie & Xavier: Bye.