Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / How to Overcome Performance Anxiety

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How to Overcome Performance Anxiety · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

0:02
Hi, and welcome to wealthy woman lawyer podcast. I'm your host to
0:06
be in Frederick. And I'm super, super excited today to have
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inkelaar onset. As our guest, Angola is a professional artist
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and opera singer and performer she still has an active career.
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And she also is a therapist and a board certified coach. I'm
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particularly excited about this because you're probably thinking
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to yourself, Oh, why do we have an opera singer on Welcome on
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your podcast? Well, we're gonna dive into that and you're going
0:34
to be pleasantly surprised. She's also the author of
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courageous artistry. And I'm super excited to dive in and
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start talking with her. Welcome, Angela.
0:43
Thank you, Davina. I'm so excited to be here.
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So tell us a little bit about courageous artistry and what you
0:51
do now. So we can sort of put it in the right frame of mind
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before we go back and sort of dig into your journey to get
0:57
here.
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Sure, let's not leave your audience hanging as to why an
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opera singer is on the law. Right? I founded my coaching,
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practice courageous artistry, because I believe that we are
1:09
all performers in some way, shape, or form. And we all have
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areas of our professional lives and our personal lives as well
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in which we need to perform. Yet many of us are not taught these
1:19
skills. So for example, when I'm working with attorneys, they
1:23
have an immense body of knowledge and so much training
1:26
under their belts, and what oftentimes they're missing or
1:29
what I know that a lot of people are missing unless it comes very
1:33
naturally to them, which I think those folks are rather few and
1:36
far between is how do we present ourselves to the best of our
1:39
abilities. So we could sort of put this under the umbrella of
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public speaking in a way or performing. And we all need to
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learn how to be courageous artists within our own lives.
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Because as an attorney, many of you know your your clients and
1:55
people you've worked with in the past and yourself as well, I'm
1:57
sure have been put in situations where we have the knowledge we
2:02
need in the preparation we need. But then suddenly, our system,
2:05
our body and our emotions, and our mind goes haywire. And we
2:09
show up to an event whether that's in the courtroom or in
2:12
client negotiations, in a job interview, perhaps even giving a
2:17
speech somewhere presenting something. And we realize that
2:22
we that all the knowledge and preparation didn't necessarily
2:25
help us. And we walk off that stage or out of that courtroom
2:28
feeling like oh, my gosh, I didn't present myself the way I
2:31
wanted to present myself. And that can be from a physical or
2:35
vocal standpoint. But oftentimes, it manifests as
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anxiety within the system. And then the anxiety sets up a
2:41
domino effect, and affects how we are able to speak how we were
2:45
able to stand, move our bodies in the space, whether we can
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make eye contact or not. Whether we can focus enough and stay
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concentrated enough, which also, interestingly, has to do with
2:54
anxiety, to remember the salient points that we're going to make.
2:59
I definitely had that experience more than one occasion, having
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having a situation where I, you know, I thought I've prepared
3:07
for something. And then And then somebody was present that took
3:10
me by surprise. And I started having that anxiety attack and
3:15
the meltdown and everything that I thought I was gonna say didn't
3:18
come out the right way. Yeah, I know what that is like. And
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there are many, many ways that attorneys experienced that.
3:27
Before we get into that, because I definitely do want to dive a
3:30
lot deeper into that topic. I want people to get to know a
3:33
little bit more about you. And how does an opera singer wind up
3:37
being a therapist and a board certified coach, what was the
3:40
journey there? Did you always know you wanted to be an opera
3:44
singer? Or did you grow up in that environment? Or,
3:46
or? Yes, yes. I always knew I wanted to be an opera singer. I
3:50
always knew I wanted to be some type of classical singer. Within
3:52
the realm of opera. There's also concert singing, and I you know,
3:56
it's sort of you are trained as a classical singer, and you end
3:58
up doing a lot of opera. So when I was younger, all I wanted to
4:03
do was sing, and I wanted to go to school for singing. And I was
4:06
always interested in classical music over popular forms of
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music. And so I went to college and got a bachelor music degree
4:14
and I moved to Germany, Germany, which many people don't know, is
4:20
a hub of opera. It has many, many, many, I mean, dozens upon
4:24
dozens of state funded opera houses and theaters. And so it's
4:27
really a great place for opera singers to work because you can
4:31
be hired as an employee, you have benefits, you have paid
4:34
vacations. It's a very humane way of, of doing the arts. So I
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moved to Germany and I lived there for a decade and sang
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opera, and then some things change and shifted in my life.
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And I decided to move back to the states in my early 30s. And
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I got a master's in voice because I was sort of biding my
4:53
time figuring out what do I want to do next I want to go into the
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realm of teaching voice and becoming a professor faster. I
5:01
had already been teaching private singing lessons for a
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very long time. But I soon found that wasn't really where my
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heart lay. And so I decided I'd always been interested in
5:09
psychology. And I had been sort of that person in my community
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and group of friends and family that people would confide in,
5:16
people would say, Oh, I have to talk over something, oh, you
5:19
should go talk to English, she, she's a good listener, she gives
5:21
good advice. So I enrolled in a Master's of mental health
5:27
counseling, Master of Arts in mental health counseling to
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become a therapist. And I found I really loved it. And it really
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suited a whole other side of my skill set. And something that I
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had noticed when I was in all of my years as a professional full
5:44
time musician, was how often it would happen that I would see
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colleagues in rehearsal, everybody would be singing
5:50
beautifully, feeling calm, doing fine. And then we would start
5:54
amping up to the you know, opening night. And you would see
5:59
certain colleagues, in dress rehearsals and rehearsals that
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were much closer to the premier start to really crumble. And I
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could tell right away, it had nothing to do with our vocal
6:08
technique, it didn't have anything to do with their
6:10
training or abilities, it had to do with their mind and their
6:13
emotions, and how that was manifesting them. So I would see
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this all the time and think to myself, Oh, gosh, I wish I wish
6:20
so and so could get help with this because he or she is such a
6:23
gifted artist. And they're really not able to show anything
6:28
close to their best when they get on stage for those first
6:31
performances. So for a long time, I had been pondering this
6:34
topic, how do we deal with our anxiety, what are ways in which
6:38
we can support ourselves. And I sort of left that to the side, I
6:43
became a therapist thought I would just work with a quote
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unquote, regular normal population of people, which I
6:48
did for many years. And then I had people in the arts community
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that I know because I still perform actively.
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Call me late at night, text me late at night, hey, you know
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what this is like, and your therapist help. And I started
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seeing a real need for helping people with stage fright, and
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performance anxiety. And I looked around and saw there's
7:08
not really official sources of help that we can go to for this.
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Oftentimes, we go to mentors, and they might give us some good
7:16
advice, but they're not trained in this. So I just saw a great
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opportunity to combine my two greatest passions and skill sets
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into a coaching practice that could work with all sorts of
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professionals. So first, I started working with performers
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because that was the my market and where I had most of my
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connections in network. And then it just so happened as these
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things do, you know, things sometimes sort of come and fall
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in your lap in a way I have in my life here. A lot of friends
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who are attorneys, actually, women attorneys, and a lot of
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them would say to me at cocktail parties or parties are out of
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the blue, oh, my gosh, your skills would be so useful for
7:54
attorneys too. So it had been kind of percolating in the back
7:57
of my mind. And then the universe just kept speaking to
8:00
me loud, more and more and more loudly. And I shifted my
8:04
business to work with all sorts of different professionals. So
8:07
I've helped, you know, people in the corporate world prepare
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speeches, you know, for their company, I have helped attorneys
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with all sorts of different things, job interviews,
8:17
courtroom presence, I have contracts with different the
8:21
public defender's office here in my state to do different
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trainings on things like how do we be confident and well spoken
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and make a connection over zoom? Because that's a whole other
8:32
thing as well. It's not just about the technology, but how do
8:34
we connect with our clients or show up in the Zoom courtroom.
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So it's been a really fun way to expand my business. And I find
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that the skill set that I've been working on with myself and
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my own performing and with performing artists, applies just
8:49
exactly directly to all other humans. Surprise, surprise,
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we're all very similar when it comes down to it. And that
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especially, I think, within the law community, I think it's
9:00
very, this is a community filled with very high performing very
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high flying, very ambitious, very intelligent people. And
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oftentimes, those types of people do not like to admit to
9:13
something like anxiety, right? Because it might make them feel
9:17
vulnerable, or it might make them feel like somebody is going
9:20
to jump in for the kill, if they were to admit to something like
9:24
that. So I think a lot of people are suffering silently. And I
9:27
know there's been a big movement in the attorney world over the
9:30
last few years, a big push and movement for more well being
9:33
wellness, addressing substance abuse, right, all of these
9:37
things that you're starting to see as CL ease and such. And so
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I love to see how my skill set sort of fits into that uniquely.
9:44
And it's just I love this work. It's so much fun to do with
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people.
9:49
Right. And it's it is so so needed because one of the things
9:55
that I think we often don't consider when we go to law
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school Is there are some people have very definite ideas about
10:03
it. But a lot of people wind up going to law school because you
10:05
know, they have this vision of what it means to be an attorney.
10:08
And there are all different kinds of ways that we can be an
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attorney. And we might find ourselves heading down a path
10:15
that is not suited to our nature. And that's a lot of
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times where that anxiety can crop up. So I'll give you a
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couple of examples. One, I remember being when I first
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started, as an intern I was doing, I was asked to
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participate in litigation, I was working for a state attorney's
10:37
office. And the anxiety was so overwhelming for me to be the
10:43
only one. And it's, it's tough enough in law school, when you
10:46
you know, just suddenly, you're the only one of a couple 100
10:48
people that's speaking, the room is quiet, you only hear your
10:52
voice. But then when you get into a courtroom, it's the
10:55
pressure is huge. And I actually had therapists at the time who
11:00
sent me to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist put me on a
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medication, she's, I want you to take this just before you go
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into court. And I want you to see how calm you are, and how
11:09
you perform when you're calm. And it was amazing, because it
11:12
felt wonderful. When I was had this medication, I was like, Oh
11:18
my gosh, I'm so calm. And I performed tremendously, and did
11:22
a great job. But the anxiety and the nerves were so overwhelming.
11:26
And unfortunately for me, the medication gave me such bad
11:30
migraines after or I would have just wanted it all the time.
11:33
That's such a profound effect. So I couldn't take it. But it
11:38
allowed me to see what can happen when your anxiety and
11:41
your nerves are calm. How is it that you help people deal with
11:47
anxiety? Because like you said, anxiety doesn't have anything to
11:50
do with intelligence, or the level of preparation? Or any of
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that? Where do you think it comes from it? And what kinds of
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things do you do is help your clients with that?
12:01
Yes, well, just to touch very quickly on what you were talking
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about with the medication. And thank you for sharing that with
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me. Many people do rely on medication for these things.
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There's a whole class of drugs called beta blockers, which
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lower our blood pressure. And so when we're anxious, our blood
12:16
pressure raises our heart rate raises. And so these drugs can
12:19
be very effective. But I also like to point out to clients,
12:22
well, what if, like you mentioned, what if the drug
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stops working for you, or has a side effect that you don't like.
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And also, I think sometimes people would love to just make
12:31
sure that they have extra tools in their toolkit. So you can use
12:35
a performance enhancing drug, you know, as it were, for the
12:40
courtroom, for example, and also have skills and tools to help
12:43
manage your anxiety. And I think that when these skills and tools
12:46
are coming from within us versus an external source, like a pill,
12:50
I have nothing against medication whatsoever, big
12:52
supporter of it. However, it's so much more empowering. It puts
12:57
us back in the driver's seat to have some skills and tools. So
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just to give a brief primer on really what anxiety is. Because
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we don't, we don't oftentimes understand it. And I find that
13:08
just understanding the basic mechanics of anxiety can give
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people a lot of feelings of normalcy, like, Oh, I'm not
13:15
crazy for feeling this way. It's just the way a body a human
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reacts. Well, back in Paleolithic times, we were faced
13:23
with a lot more life threatening situations, right. And if we
13:28
look around in the animal kingdom, as well, there exists
13:30
the function in our nervous system that we all have heard of
13:34
before from biology, class of fight, flight or freeze.
13:38
Sometimes nowadays people are adding on fight flight freeze or
13:41
fawn sort of to placate is another aspect of that. And what
13:45
happens there is that our brains are constantly scanning our
13:50
environments without our awareness for threats or
13:53
dangers, so that if somebody were to burst into my room right
13:57
now, my system would emit a bunch of adrenaline and cortisol
14:01
and other stress and sort of action hormones to start
14:06
shuttling more blood flow to my limbs to get me ready to fight
14:10
or to run. It shuts down my digestion somewhat. It sends our
14:15
heart rates, racing, of course, to help pump this blood through
14:18
our body more quickly so that we have more energy. That's why we
14:21
feel oftentimes sweaty and nauseous and twitchy. But also
14:25
another really interesting aspect that I think isn't as
14:27
well known about fight or flight is that when we are in fight or
14:32
flight, our prefrontal cortex, which sits up here behind our
14:36
forehead, it's the most evolved part of our brains of it's the
14:40
most evolved part of all brains in the world, including the
14:43
animal kingdom, it's the most human part of our brain. And
14:46
with it, we can do wonderful things like use reason and
14:49
logic, and remember things and craft arguments and stay
14:54
focused. Well, when we're in fight, flight or freeze, the
14:57
prefrontal cortex loses blood
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And the limbic system, which is oftentimes referred to as our
15:04
lizard brain, which is the oldest, most ancient part of our
15:07
brain responsible for our fear response, gains blood flow,
15:11
because it's going into animal mode to just protect us get us
15:14
out of the situation. So you spoke a little bit about, you
15:17
know, nerves hitting you, and then feeling like you couldn't
15:20
present your arguments Well, or feeling like things are fuzzier,
15:23
foggy. And people often say this, when they're anxious, I
15:26
can't think straight, I feel, I feel so distracted, my brain
15:30
feels so fuzzy. Well, it's just very natural. So what the main
15:34
problem is here, however, to sum it up is that we are no longer
15:37
for the most part, living in a world where a wild animal is
15:40
about to jump out at us. Yet, our brains almost haven't
15:44
evolved to the point where they can recognize the difference
15:47
between the dangers, quote, unquote, of a courtroom versus
15:52
the dangers of the wild. So many of our nervous systems still
15:56
react very strongly to those dangerous stimuli in our
16:00
environment. And then I'll also add to that, which is another
16:04
very important aspect for folks to understand is that we are
16:09
social creatures, and had wet back in case people times when
16:14
we were running with smaller tribes, had we been rejected
16:18
from our tribe, or had we lost social standing, we could have
16:23
either been cast out in the wilderness and left to die alone
16:26
and not able to protect ourselves because we needed the
16:29
help of a group, or had we been sort of downgraded in our social
16:35
standing or demoted, we would have lost access to resources
16:39
and mates. So this, I think, is another really big piece that is
16:43
often an aha moment for folks, is that we can tell ourselves as
16:47
much as we want, oh, I don't care what other people think.
16:51
But that is to deny our own biology, we do care. And we are
16:54
meant to care. Because we are also meant to live in community
16:58
and meant to be connected. So when we walk into a situation in
17:02
which we are feeling somewhat threatened, there's that social
17:05
component, there's that biological component, it's so
17:09
important for us in the world, to be able to feel good about
17:13
ourselves, to have a sense of esteem, to have a sense that we
17:17
are able to reach our highest goals. And so when we walk in
17:21
there, and our anxiety has been set off, and all of these
17:25
different things happen in the body, we're not really able to
17:29
present ourselves like we can in the comfort of our own homes, or
17:32
our own offices or with folks with whom we feel comfortable.
17:35
So there's that social factor, that biological chemical factor.
17:40
And there are and I'm sure we'll get to this many things that we
17:42
can do about this, but just telling ourselves don't feel
17:45
that way, or criticizing ourselves for feeling that way,
17:49
which is oftentimes the go to, especially for very powerful,
17:52
intelligent people. Why do I feel this way? Why can't I
17:55
control this emotion? And that's just a dead end street that that
17:58
quest line of questioning leads nowhere?
18:01
Absolutely, absolutely. I do want to get into some of the
18:04
things that we can do. But before we do that, I want to
18:06
talk about some other places that we as women lawyers might
18:12
feel anxious, or business owners, or just professional
18:16
women in general. And one of the things that comes to mind is so
18:20
many. So many my colleagues do not like to network, and what
18:28
what we traditionally consider networking, going to a cocktail
18:31
party or an event and talking with people and having the
18:34
opportunity to talk about our business. And it can cause a lot
18:37
of people a lot of anxiety. But another thing I think that is
18:42
happening is because we've had this couple of years of
18:47
pandemic, where we're finding more and more, just among
18:53
discussions that I've been involved in, and what I've been
18:55
hearing is that more of us and reading is that more of us are.
19:01
It's like we've lost those social skills, what little bit
19:03
we had anyway. And so we're even more reluctant to leave the
19:08
comfort of our home and everything is set up, we're able
19:10
to communicate through technology. And, you know, it's
19:15
become more and more difficult. And a lot of people are saying
19:17
that it's going to be a challenge. I have two nephews in
19:20
college and their freshman year in college, and I see that they
19:27
don't have so many of the opportunities I had when I was
19:30
in college at that age to be around other people so much is
19:33
still occurring online. And so they're kind of, you know, in
19:36
their dorms or in their apartments with their roommates,
19:41
you know, whatever friend they're both live in cities
19:43
where they don't have, you know, friends, and and so we're seeing
19:46
kind of a struggle, you know, what are them naturally they're
19:50
twins, one of them naturally has the more social personality, but
19:54
the one who does not have a more social personality. It's really
19:57
struggling to develop some of those skills. Because of the the
20:01
added anxiety, you know, of not practicing them, you know? Are
20:07
you seeing a lot of that? Are you seeing those kinds of things
20:10
with clients award or as the pandemic practice while you're
20:13
seeing the church working with your clients?
20:16
Oh, yes, Davina very much. So you're making a very good point.
20:20
These things weren't always easy for us even prior to the
20:23
pandemic, but we were accustomed to them. Or, to use another
20:29
word, it had been normalized to us. So although we may not have
20:33
always liked it or enjoyed it, we were in the mode of being
20:37
able to do it with the sort of requisite self talk and skills
20:42
that go along with it, right. So if you're attending a network
20:44
event, networking event, once twice a month, or going to a
20:48
cocktail party and meeting new people, and you've been doing
20:51
that consistently, it's it's becomes normalized to us, we're
20:55
able to cope with some of the anxieties that come up in the
20:57
little bits of social anxiety that we all have to a varying
21:00
degree when faced with new situations. And then, you know,
21:04
kind of tying this back to that fact that I mentioned before of
21:08
our brain constantly scanning for threats. Well, we've all
21:11
been isolated. And there's been this threat of a virus floating
21:16
around, and we don't know whom it's going to hit or how and how
21:20
it will affect us. So our brain has a whole new very large
21:24
threat to deal with. And then we think about all the after
21:28
effects of the Coronavirus. So I would say in many ways, our
21:32
nervous systems are sort of tapped out right now. We're,
21:37
we're so tired, and we're so our systems are so exhausted of
21:40
living in this kind of low level to high level anxiety all the
21:43
time, we are seeing people access mental health services at
21:47
record numbers, we are seeing all of all of the bad statistics
21:51
go up for anxiety, depression, suicide, substance abuse,
21:55
overdoses, all of those things, car accidents, also,
21:57
interestingly, so So yes, it's this. It's this. We were already
22:06
challenged by this, but maybe we didn't recognize that it was a
22:09
challenge because we were used to coping with it. And then you
22:12
take a big pause, and I'm seeing the same thing with my
22:14
performing artists, people are going back to the Broadway stage
22:17
back to the stage of the Metropolitan Opera. These are
22:20
seasoned artists who have done this their entire lives. And
22:24
they're coming to me and saying, why does this suddenly feel so
22:27
scary to me. And part of my job is to teach them tools and
22:30
skills to help them cope, but also just to normalize and
22:33
validate their experience. Of course, this feels this way. If
22:37
we hadn't, I don't know, ridden a bike in a few years and and
22:41
then we got back on, we'd be a little wobbly at first, too,
22:44
we'd probably be slightly anxious. Do I still know how to
22:47
do this? What is this? Like? Will I get hurt? So I think it's
22:51
the overall societal anxiety coupled with the fact that we've
22:53
had a break from all of this. But I do, to your point, feel
22:57
very sorry for the younger generations, because they're
22:59
losing out. And I think this is happening, you know, in law
23:02
schools as well. Right? People are made graduating from law
23:05
school and still working from home, oftentimes, as attorneys,
23:09
and people are losing out on community and connection, and
23:13
that's actually one of the most important factors that can
23:15
positively influence our nervous system. When we feel connected,
23:18
when we feel a sense of belonging. That is a very, very
23:22
significant way to calm our nervous systems. And a lot of us
23:25
have been missing that.
23:27
Right. Right. Absolutely. I also think in terms of with with
23:32
attorneys, you mentioned speaking, public speaking, and
23:38
obviously court, and you mentioned zoom, and one of the
23:42
challenges for small business owners of any kind, but for
23:46
women's law firm owners is so much of the connecting and
23:53
engaging with other people right now is done through social
23:56
media, in addition to zoom, or are these kinds of video
24:00
conferencing, but social media is where a lot of people are
24:04
connecting with prospective clients and their best referral
24:07
sources, and they're involved in communities and discussions. And
24:11
so there's a need for those, you know, for those of us advising
24:15
about marketing, we may be talking about becoming more
24:17
visible. I know with my clients it is I try to make sure that
24:24
they're fitting whatever they're doing with their personality
24:27
with where their clients hang out, and also incorporating a
24:30
team to help but a lot of times we may be required to be more
24:34
visible and I and I know for people I'm in my audience, as
24:39
I'm always talking about, like I'm in my 50s so I feel a little
24:42
bit older, like I was recently reading an article and they
24:45
called women over 50 Dyno babies was IBM word how offensive IBM
24:51
was threatening to you know, they had secret memos going
24:54
around to you know, get the dyno babies out of goodness and they
24:58
were talking about women Actually, so I was like, I'm a
25:01
dying a baby, obviously. But I am, you know, I'm on Instagram,
25:07
for example, and I have an Instagram manager. And she's
25:10
always telling me, you know, you do more reels, you need to do
25:12
more reels. And like, you know, like, first of all, yes, sir.
25:20
Secondly, it's not it's not something that I feel naturally
25:23
comfortable doing because I didn't grow up filming my life.
25:27
And so that and being I posted something about the other day
25:33
and somebody said, Oh, typical attorney, you're overthinking.
25:36
You're overthinking things. And I, we do a lot of us do
25:40
overthink things. Have you? Have you had clients talk with you
25:45
about sort of this, this push to be more visible, to be more out
25:50
there because of social media to put more of their lives out for
25:53
people because of social media? And the impact of that on them?
25:56
Or you know, what their experiences?
25:59
Oh, yes. Very much so and you and your audience may be
26:03
surprised to learn that it's not just people who are in
26:09
generations who didn't grow up filming themselves, which I
26:11
belong to the dyno babies to then Davina. It's also some of
26:16
my younger performing artists. And that might give people
26:19
pause, like why would a performer have trouble filming
26:22
themselves and putting themselves out there isn't that
26:24
the same thing as stepping onto a stage or stepping into a
26:27
rehearsal. But here is where I like to help people also
26:32
understand No, it is very much different. And it doesn't matter
26:36
how much sort of onscreen confidence you might have in a
26:39
rehearsal. Even if you're a TV person, I don't think you
26:43
necessarily have that this necessarily comes naturally to
26:48
you. What happens here, in my best estimation, I don't think
26:52
there's enough research on it, because this is still such a
26:55
relatively new phenomenon. But when we are putting ourselves
26:59
out there on social media, that fear that we feel walking in to,
27:05
let's say, courtroom client negotiations, you know, public
27:10
speaking, we can actually see the people around us for the
27:14
most part, right, some faces might be obscured by by heads or
27:18
taller people, but we can see and our nervous system can take
27:22
in what is going on here in the room, we have so much richness
27:27
in the room for our bodies to read, without us even knowing
27:31
we're doing it. So we can, you know, look around and we can
27:35
give our quote unquote, performance. And we can look
27:38
around and we can kind of sense how it is landing or arriving we
27:42
can sense the tone and tenor of the room. We're just we feel
27:46
more secure. And even if things don't feel great to us, it's a
27:49
known quantity. It's a known environment. And even if we
27:54
don't like it, we know what it is, well add a tiny little
27:59
camera that's filming me and me putting myself out there. And I
28:02
struggle with this too. On Instagram on tick tock, whatever
28:06
it may be. Our brain, I think hasn't evolved enough yet to
28:10
handle the giant question, which is who sees this? How will they
28:16
react, we can cope if it's real people in the room not reacting?
28:20
Well, we've been through that before. We can't our brain can't
28:23
cope with all of this unknown. And I think what our what our
28:26
brain does, is it wants us to avoid anything that's too risky
28:30
for us. Because once again, it still sort of stuck in those
28:33
Paleolithic times where we weren't maybe getting enough
28:36
calories in the day. And our brain needs 20% of our daily
28:39
energy, which is a lot considering all of the organs in
28:42
our system. So our brain is tremendous at figuring out when
28:46
to avoid danger, avoid risk, avoid scary new things, because
28:52
it thinks Ooh, if I go do that scary new thing, I might have to
28:55
expend too much energy. And then I might not have enough energy
28:58
leftover later and we might all starve and die. It's it's you
29:02
know, it's still very, very primitive in the way it handles
29:05
some things. So our brain actively wants to find excuses
29:09
for us to avoid doing these scary risky things, because it's
29:12
not sure if we can survive it. Now, of course we can. Could it
29:17
possibly have negative effects on our mental health? If if
29:21
we're trolled on social media? Or if we have a an abusive meme
29:24
comment, of course. But there's something about the unknown, of
29:30
putting ourselves out there and having no idea who's going to
29:33
see this and who's going to judge this. That gives I think
29:36
most of us pause. So you're not alone in this. Your clients are
29:40
not alone in this. My clients, even the young performers are
29:44
not alone in this with many of them. I have to do a lot of
29:46
coaching around how to put ourselves out there in social
29:49
media in a way that feels good to us and learn to build our
29:53
skills to cope with the resulting anxiety that comes up
29:56
when we put ourselves out there and that way in fact, I I've
29:59
taught a whole workshop on it before
30:01
you run out gap. Yeah. I think to myself, even, you know, even
30:06
for performers or people who naturally performative or
30:09
whatever, your, your, your being that it's you, your thoughts,
30:15
your point of view and your thought, a script, it's not a
30:18
play, it's not somebody else, and you're the producer, the
30:21
director, the whatever, you know. So it's, it's, you're
30:25
holding up, and I'm sure with a lot of performers, you know,
30:27
there's still a team, when you have a performance going on, you
30:30
know, that it's hundreds of people involved in a show or
30:33
whatever. And you're paying, you're part of linear, you know,
30:37
doing a real or tic tock or something there you are putting
30:41
yourself out there. And everybody's, and and you
30:44
mentioned, the key word, I think, in that is judgment. And
30:47
that is this belief that we are going to be judged. And there's
30:53
a belief in there somewhere that other people's opinions matter,
30:59
and our lives matter more maybe than our own matter matter at
31:03
all. And I'm always working with my clients about sort of working
31:11
through that fear of judgment. Because does it really impact
31:18
the day to day of your life? And, you know, certainly, there
31:21
are some cases where things do but I once had someone say to
31:24
me, you know, the people who can accept the most judgment are the
31:29
people who rise to the top top levels of our society and they
31:33
use at the time it was Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton
31:38
because they were running for president and they said, these
31:39
two individuals can accept an incredible amount of judgment,
31:44
and continue to put themselves out there. And I thought that
31:47
was a really and whether you whether you like or hate any of
31:51
them, I'm not, I won't go there. But I have strong opinions there
31:55
too. But I You just you look at your celebrities and your, you
32:01
know, the stars and politicians, and there are people who can
32:05
really handle a lot of judgment and keep going forward. And are
32:11
there things that we can do to develop that kind of thick skin,
32:15
you've heard that sort of thick skin, you know, about people are
32:19
the things that we can do to develop that for ourselves, to
32:21
be able to take a little bit more judgment and not let it
32:26
upset the applecart?
32:28
Yes, most definitely. And I think a lot of us just have this
32:32
ingrained belief that somehow we're just stuck the way we are,
32:36
in how we handle us, oh, I'm just like that, that's just how
32:39
I am I'm such a, we use these negative labels, and definitions
32:44
for ourselves without recognizing that the brain is
32:46
the most amazing organ on Earth. And it is what they call
32:49
incredibly plastic. Meaning if we challenge it, if we challenge
32:54
it to grow, and we're faced with challenges, we can learn new
32:57
ways of coping with them. I mean, to your point about the
32:59
presidential candidates, or anybody who's in the public eye,
33:02
like that also makes me think of athletes and I work with some
33:05
athletes as well. These are all people who if we looked at it
33:09
from another direction, we might be able to call mindset experts.
33:15
Because if they were not able to have a really strong mindset,
33:21
and a really strong coping skills around this, they would
33:24
crumble, there's no way a human can be so visible, and then
33:29
allow themselves to feel so vulnerable, we have to build up
33:31
some inner strength. And when I'm coaching with clients,
33:33
whether it's in sort of intensive form, or this is
33:36
probably more long form coaching work that I do with clients, we
33:40
do a lot of mindset work and kind of taken from the area of
33:47
psychology called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, or CBT. For
33:51
short, it's a very popular form of therapy, it has a huge body
33:55
of empirical research to back it up. And it is I find incredibly
34:00
effective with have very high functioning people. And people
34:04
consider themselves to be smart and intellectual, because
34:06
there's a lot of teaching and learning. And it's just a sort
34:10
of toolkit that we build. But essentially what we're doing
34:13
there spoken in very plain language is we are identifying
34:18
negative thought patterns of which the brain has probably 10s
34:23
of 1000s per day. The brain is hardwired for negativity,
34:27
because it's going to better ensure our survival, if it is
34:31
always watching out for dangerous and making assumptions
34:33
that something is dangerous and bad. So it's just sort of how
34:35
we're built is our factory setting. So that means we have
34:38
to do a lot of work, we have to really focus and put some effort
34:42
into changing some of those negative thought patterns. So if
34:46
we think about thought patterns, it's almost like a groove worn
34:49
deeply in the brain. And if we put a you know, a wagon on a
34:53
dirt road, the wheels are going to find the grooves that they've
34:57
been running in all of these years. It's going to take some
34:59
effort To jump those wheels out of the groove and create a new
35:02
groove, but it can be done. So what we do there is we find and
35:07
address negative thought patterns or negative self talk,
35:09
sometimes I refer to it as garbage thoughts. And we're
35:12
especially looking for the ones that don't benefit us
35:15
whatsoever. And also, PS, most of those negative thoughts about
35:20
ourselves or about the world are not based in true fact, they're
35:24
opinions that our brain has come up with. And our brain is really
35:28
clever. And it has convinced us that those are true. It's almost
35:32
like when we practice a thought over and over and over and over
35:34
again, it becomes a belief. And we hold very tightly to that and
35:37
becomes a deep part of our identity. When we can identify
35:41
these negative thought patterns, then we can go about changing
35:44
them into something more helpful. And now I like to be
35:47
clear, I'm not talking about positive affirmations, those can
35:50
be helpful for some people, I would say, generally speaking,
35:53
positive affirmations might work well, for the small slice of the
35:56
population that is naturally sunny and positive and
35:59
optimistic. Now we know from also from research that this
36:02
doesn't necessarily apply to the attorney population. Attorneys
36:07
when they've done a lot of testing and research are found
36:09
to be pragmatic, more on the pessimistic side, which
36:12
oftentimes also equates with realistic, right, an attorney
36:15
has to be really excellent at imagining all of the
36:18
eventualities, all of the negative outcomes that could
36:20
come up, and then designing a strategy to to conquer that,
36:25
right. So when our brains are programmed to always be looking
36:29
for the bad, this can take a little bit of work and a
36:32
positive affirmation, especially for I think somebody like the
36:35
attorneys I work with at least, they're not going to buy that
36:38
they're going to go this is a load of bunk. Why would I say
36:40
that? I don't believe it, and your brain literally will not
36:43
believe it, your brain literally goes, That's BS, I don't believe
36:48
most of the attorneys I know can even say it, not sarcastically.
36:53
But yes, very, it'll come out very sarcastic, very sarcastic,
36:59
right. And it's considered to maybe be kind of fluffy or sort
37:02
of new agey, you're sort of self helpy. And that's not you know,
37:04
generally speaking, I don't like to make large generalizations.
37:07
But that doesn't really fit in with with the population of
37:10
humans on this earth who are feel called to practice law, and
37:13
rightly so it doesn't have to be their bag. So what we do in
37:18
replacing these thoughts is we just create something that is
37:21
more neutral, or more helpful, or a little bit more supportive.
37:25
So, for example, in the case of somebody who has a lot of nerves
37:30
when entering the courtroom, maybe we can identify a thought
37:33
pattern for them. That is something along the lines of,
37:36
I'm so terrible at this, Why does this always happen to me,
37:39
everybody knows that I'm bad at this, I'm so embarrassed, I made
37:46
a fool of myself, I'm going to continue making a fool of
37:49
myself, I'm not good at this. But when we think thoughts like
37:53
that, we cannot help but have a negative emotional effect that
37:57
does not feel good in our emotions in our body. So what we
38:02
might do in a situation like that, if I'm working with
38:03
somebody is help them design a thought that they actually
38:06
literally need to practice and write down and practice thinking
38:10
to reprogram perhaps, is something along the lines of
38:14
while I might not be good at this yet, I'm sure I can get
38:18
some help and support and become better in time. So we're not
38:22
lying to ourselves and saying, I'm great at public speaking.
38:26
Because once again, the brain will just go. That's that's a
38:28
lie. And we're not allowing the brain to continue practicing the
38:33
bad negative unhelpful patterns, we're just creating something
38:37
that creates a little bit more space, a little bit more hope.
38:40
It's shifting the mindset from a fixed mindset of I'm bad at
38:44
something. And that's the end to I could become better at this or
38:48
another, you know, something another thought we might
38:50
practice there is I'm actually good at this and this aspect of
38:56
public presenting. But these are the other aspects that I would
39:00
like to improve. And just as if we're talking to children, we
39:04
don't want to say you're bad at something and you suck. We want
39:08
to say, you know, this wasn't your best work. But I bet if you
39:11
apply yourself and maybe use some different study strategies
39:13
next time, it could be a lot better. So we want to always be
39:17
using helpful encouraging language, in education with our
39:20
children and with others in our lives, that we turn around and
39:23
to ourselves. We use the most degrading, offensive, negative,
39:27
demeaning language.
39:30
Yeah, I definitely find that to to be the case when we're
39:34
talking when I'm talking with other women law firm owners is
39:38
how how quickly we can we're we're our own worst critics, you
39:44
know, and I think when anytime you have anyone in sort of a
39:48
have a high achieving profession, there's a lot of
39:54
baggage that goes along with being in a high achieving
39:57
profession somewhere, somebody Along the way, praised us for
40:04
our high achievements. And so we wanted to create more or
40:06
somebody demanded of us or something. So I think it can go
40:11
along with that, that idea that where, as a high performer and a
40:15
high achiever, there's an expectation that we have
40:18
ourselves of perfection of being the best of, of the world
40:23
falling apart if we don't do something well. And of course,
40:29
it's a, it's a really unreasonable expectation to
40:31
expect that, you know, you're going to do everything well, I'm
40:36
always telling my clients that you really, truly are not the
40:39
best person for every job in your business. Because it is,
40:43
you know, is the belief of most attorneys that well, you know,
40:46
we're smarter than the average bear and just given enough time,
40:49
I can figure this out, and I could, you know, sort of
40:52
willpower power, my way, my way through it, and all that kind of
40:57
stuff, but when it but it's that we get tricked by these darn
41:00
human emotions that don't listen to our reason.
41:04
Darn it, I know, it's so inconvenient.
41:09
You, I do want to talk a little bit before we run out of time,
41:12
you have made the distinction in your materials, on between
41:18
therapy and coaching. And I think that's very important. And
41:21
I want to discuss it here, because I think it will really
41:23
help people sort of understand that I, I'm a business coach for
41:28
business coaching, when I say business coaching, it is really
41:31
around business and, and strategy and mindset around
41:35
business and that kind of thing. And, but as anyone who's done
41:40
any coaching, you can see how quickly you can get sucked into
41:48
a call calling for therapy, you know, when somebody's sitting
41:52
there. And I remember when I first started doing this, I
41:54
really just wanted to help people grow their business, you
41:56
know, I don't want to fix people's, you know, childhood
42:00
problems. Right. And, and it was the line was a little murky, I
42:05
find myself getting into conversations. And then I'm
42:07
like, I finally just said, Okay, I've got to create a boundary
42:10
around this, because I'm not equipped, qualified, nor do I
42:14
have a desire to be someone's therapist. And I have referred
42:19
clients to therapy as a as a result of that. But let's help
42:28
our audience listening, listening, if they're deciding,
42:31
you know, I'm gonna hire a coach versus Do I need a therapist?
42:35
What kinds of things they need to think about? What is the
42:37
difference between therapy and coaching? Where is that line?
42:43
Yeah, that's a great question. Davina. And I actually wrote a
42:46
whole blog post about this. That's on my website. I'm
42:49
courageous, I read it. Oh, great. This is the one you're
42:52
referencing, yes. Because I have to be especially careful that I
42:57
am being very clear about the boundaries between therapy and
42:59
coaching. I want to maintain my professional license as a
43:03
therapist. And as you know, as it is similar in law, we can
43:07
only practice in the state in which we are licensed. So I live
43:10
in New Mexico, which is a beautiful state. But it has a
43:14
very small population. And it doesn't have a high population
43:17
of performing artists, which is where my business first started
43:20
out. So I thought, How do I use these skills, but in a way that
43:24
is legal and ethical within my scope of practice, yet still
43:27
being able to reach more people. So then I turned to coaching and
43:31
through the organization that licenses, therapists, I was able
43:35
to get a special board certification as a coach, so
43:38
that I'm legally protected. And I've, you know, done training
43:41
and an exam on the differences between therapy and coaching.
43:45
Because I don't want to be practicing therapy with my
43:47
clients either. Now, do things get personal? Do we sometimes
43:50
get into that territory, certainly. But for me, I can
43:54
tell very quickly when I'm meeting with a prospective
43:56
client, because of my therapeutic background, whether
44:00
they need my skills, or whether they need therapy. And one of
44:04
the main identifiers for me is I am very clear about explaining
44:10
that therapy is often very useful to heal from past
44:16
experiences, and to gain greater insight and understanding into
44:21
our personal patterns. How our family of origin and upbringing
44:25
affected us so that we can be functioning at a reasonable
44:29
level sort of back at our baseline. So oftentimes, people
44:32
go to therapy, because they've recognized that they've dipped
44:35
below their their normal baseline of functioning or or
44:39
well being, and they say, I don't feel like myself. I am
44:43
anxious, I'm depressed I'm this I'm that I'm struggling with a
44:47
relationship in my life. I need help because I, I'm not at my
44:50
normal level right now. And that's great, and that's very
44:54
necessary work for many people. Now, the way we view things in
44:59
coaching is I view my clients as whole and complete just as they
45:04
are. Many of them also have a therapist on the side and use me
45:07
as a coach, because it's two different things that we're
45:09
doing. And what we're doing is we're looking to see where are
45:12
you at right now? And where do you want to be in the future?
45:15
And how can I help you get there. And obviously, with
45:19
through all of my skills and tools, I can design strategies
45:21
for them, I can customize things, I can also sort of set
45:25
the boundary when I say, you know, this feels more like
45:27
therapy territory that we're talking about right now. So I
45:29
would really encourage you to bring that to your therapist, or
45:33
let me help you find a therapist, if you don't know how
45:36
to look for one. Or if you don't know what might be good for you.
45:38
Let me give you some suggestions and resources to figure this
45:41
out. But yes, coaching, as you will know, is an unregulated
45:45
profession, for better or for worse, anyone can call
45:48
themselves a coach. And, you know, there are many coaches out
45:51
there who have very little background in, in psychology
45:55
whatsoever, right? executive coaching or business coaching,
45:58
right, you're teaching a whole host of skills and tools, very
46:01
tactical things, strategy in order to improve somebody's
46:04
business. But we can't take the human out of the room, right
46:08
things come up. And many times we find, I think, as coaches,
46:12
that we're working on somebody, sensibly, we're working on
46:16
somebody's business, or I'm working with them on their
46:19
public speaking skills. And what we're finding is one of the
46:22
things that's holding them back is some very deep wounding. Of
46:27
I'm not worthy to do this, or who am I to be so visible. And
46:30
this, I think, especially affects us as women, because
46:34
perhaps some biological reasons, but very much societal and
46:37
cultural reasons of how we are socialized to make sure
46:39
everybody around us is happy and comfortable, and never to shine
46:43
too brightly, because it might threaten others. So I love the
46:47
phrase full of oneself, like if a client says, oh, but doesn't
46:51
doing that just kind of come across as I'm so full of myself.
46:54
And I say yes. And if you think about that phrase, it's a
46:58
beautiful phrase to be full of myself. What could be better
47:02
than that? Right? So So yeah, I could, I can totally see how for
47:05
you as well. Things get blurry, because you build a trusted
47:09
relationship with someone and they feel comfortable telling
47:11
you about things that maybe you're not equipped to handle.
47:15
So I'm glad that you've been able to feel like you can
47:17
develop some strong boundaries and some referral
47:19
sources. Right. Right. Right. It's definitely it's definitely
47:23
an area where you can very quickly get flipped into slip
47:27
into that. And I know, it's something that coaches discuss a
47:29
lot. In coaching organizations, how do we draw these boundaries?
47:35
So I thought it was very interesting when I read that,
47:37
and you being a therapist and a coach, that you know, exactly,
47:40
you know, sort of what that is like,
47:42
the lines are probably even blurrier for me.
47:46
Exactly. Before we wrap well, especially since you're dealing
47:50
with anxiety, right, when you're dealing, you're dealing with
47:53
emotions, I mean, some of my clients may have a feeling of
47:57
anxiety around doing some things or you know, but knowledge often
48:00
times helps in terms of, you know, well, let's do this or
48:04
let's try that. And that will help we're not digging into
48:08
exactly, you know,
48:10
what, we're not digging into an anxiety disorder, for example.
48:14
Yeah.
48:15
And with yours, I imagine it's about you, you're focusing a lot
48:18
on this specific scenario where anxiety occurs, right? As
48:23
opposed to looking back to okay, I'm an anxious person. And I
48:28
something I need to discuss with a therapist to sort of figure it
48:31
out.
48:31
Right? Is that happening more globally in my life? Or is it
48:34
more isolated, I find for coaching, it can be better. If
48:37
it's in an isolated area of our lives, I'm anxious about public
48:40
speaking, I'm anxious about building a business. But yeah,
48:43
somebody has a lot higher than normal. We all have anxiety,
48:46
right? It's a human emotion, we can't avoid it. But such high
48:50
levels of anxiety that they're not able to function as they
48:53
would like to in many areas of their lives. That's sort of a
48:57
good red flag to say, therapy might be necessary
48:59
here. You, you are exactly. Alright, before we wrap up, is
49:07
there any final thought you kind of want to leave with our
49:09
audience? If they may be sort of experiences kind of
49:13
performative, anxiety or emotions around it? Or whatever,
49:19
they feel that they can do a better job? Or?
49:21
Yeah, whatever. Yeah, I would really advise and, of course,
49:27
you know, I can't help it be biased here. But really advise
49:29
that they get some professional help with this, either from a
49:32
therapist or from a coach like myself, because I think what
49:36
happens with very intelligent people is they feel and this
49:40
sort of goes back to your point before they feel like they
49:42
should be able to figure it out on their own. They feel like
49:45
well, I'm smart, and I've gotten all these accolades and I have
49:47
all these fancy degrees and and, you know, at a girls in my life,
49:51
why can't I figure this out? There must be something wrong
49:53
with me. Maybe if I just put my mind to it, I can figure it out.
49:56
Or maybe I can just bully myself into not being anxious, maybe I
50:00
can just tell myself that stupid to feel that way. And I
50:03
shouldn't feel that way. And why do I feel that way, neither of
50:06
those are going to work, we all need to be, I think very
50:09
realistic about what is our area of expertise and what is not our
50:12
area of expertise. And your clients come to you because they
50:15
are experts in the law, but they're not experts in building
50:18
a law business. And they weren't taught that in law school, they
50:20
need some help and mentorship around that. And this can be, I
50:24
have worked with people sort of in emergency fashions before
50:27
where a friend will call me late at night before a big company
50:30
speech, the next day help, I'm freaking out, I don't know what
50:33
to do. And I have taken multiple people in my personal life
50:36
through a quick list of things, okay, I want you to try this, I
50:39
want you to try this, I want you to try this, I want you to do
50:41
this before the speech. And it's not, it's a bandaid. But the
50:46
feedback I've gotten has been so incredible, like, wow, Angola,
50:50
you taught me just a couple things. And I went in there
50:52
feeling so much better. And, you know, we can get even deeper and
50:57
more impressive results in sort of VIP coaching session or
51:01
longer term coaching. But just just to recognize whether it's
51:04
listening to podcasts on mental health or anxiety, whether it is
51:09
consuming, you know, free content that's out there,
51:13
whether it is reading a book about it, whether it is
51:16
consulting with a therapist, we can learn to deal with these
51:19
things. And we shouldn't have to deal with them alone. And
51:21
imagine where we could be, if we could get some help, just like
51:24
you do, I'm sure with your business owners, if you can get
51:27
some help, you can fast forward the progress here. You don't
51:30
have to continue to struggle with all of this and figure it
51:33
out on your own. Sometimes the DIY approach is just not what
51:37
you need, you need. You need another professional to hold
51:41
your hand for a while and show you the way.
51:44
And to your point, I think I know for myself was speak for
51:49
myself, but I'm prone to intellectualize a lot. And so
51:54
I'm a challenging client, for a therapist or for a coach because
51:58
I already have just the age I am in life, plus all the life
52:03
experiences I've had the edge. I know a lot of the things that
52:08
people are going to say to me, I know them in on an intellectual
52:11
level, too. And I think a lot of us, that's where we sort of
52:16
struggle asking for help or getting help is that, well, I
52:20
already know what you're going to tell me, I already know what
52:22
they're going to say, I know, they're going to say that I'll
52:24
just, you know, do this or that or whatever. But what I have
52:28
found as somebody who has had therapists and coaches
52:31
throughout my life at various stages, for different reasons,
52:35
is that even though I know intellectually, I I'm there's a
52:41
an emotional part of me that is not picking up what I'm throwing
52:43
down. And some other people, it's just like, it's just like,
52:50
when you tell your spouse over and over again, you know, this
52:53
is an issue you need to work on. This is an issue you look at,
52:56
and they're like, are talking about crazy. And then they
52:59
somebody randomly says to them, you know, shoot that they're
53:02
like, Oh my God, why? If we do that to ourselves as well, yes,
53:08
no, actually, somebody can pray something in a way or reframe it
53:13
in a way that you're like, Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way.
53:16
And I think that's why it's so important to open ourselves up
53:20
to other if we expect people to hire us as experts, as
53:25
attorneys, we certainly need to be willing to do the same thing
53:28
and realize there are a lot of other people out there that may
53:31
have information that we don't have, even though we read the
53:34
book about it, right?
53:36
Yes, it's a it's a real trap to fall into, isn't it? When we
53:39
live so much in the intellectual space, we think we can fix
53:42
everything with our intellect. And you're right that oftentimes
53:46
I think, especially in the attorney population, I see the
53:48
artists are more feeling and emotional as we would sort of
53:51
expect from the stereotype. And the attorneys and other
53:54
professionals are very used to functioning from the neck up.
53:58
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. I thank you so much for being
54:01
here. Tell us if somebody wants to reach out and get in touch
54:03
with you and maybe work with you. I'm assuming you're
54:06
virtual. You work with people all over us all over the world.
54:09
Okay, so why don't you give us your information, we are going
54:12
to include you in the show notes. But is there any place in
54:15
particular that we need to know to go to to find out and connect
54:18
with you?
54:18
Yeah, you can go to my website, which is just courageous
54:22
artistry calm, and there's a Contact page there and you can
54:26
join my newsletter, my mailing list if you're interested in
54:29
other things that I'm doing out there in the world. You can also
54:32
contact me directly my email address is Angola. That's i n g
54:36
e la at courageous artistry calm, and I am also on Instagram
54:42
and Facebook, both at courageous artistry and I just started
54:45
speaking of onscreen confidence and making reals. Davina, I just
54:50
started a tic tock recently, so I'm at courageous artistry on
54:54
there as well so people can find me in pretty much all the spaces
54:56
also LinkedIn although I don't spend a ton of time there just
54:59
under My name Angola Onstad. Yeah,
55:01
yeah. Excellent. Excellent. So we'll definitely have to watch
55:04
out. Watch out for your reels and yeah. And see you performing
55:11
in that in that arena. Yes. Appreciate we appreciate it so
55:16
much Eagle. It's been really a pleasure talking with you.
55:18
Thanks so much for being here.
55:20
Oh goodness. My pleasure. Davina. Thank you so much for
55:22
having me.