Latest / The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders / Who You Are is How You Lead with Rachel Rider - The Authority Podcast 61
Transcript
- Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to another episode of the Authority Podcast on the Be Podcast Network. Thanks so much for being here. As a leader, you understand that you rise to the top by excelling at doing the work, but once you're in charge, you have to recalibrate your focus to think about your team, your organization. And largely, it's so much about relationships, right? First and foremost, as a leader. It's the relationship you have with yourself. So these are some of the topics that are addressed in Rachel Rider's book, Who You Are is How You Lead. And Rachel's my guest today. Rachel is a master coach. She's the founder of MettaWorks and she had a distinguished career in HR and has since coached hundreds of business leaders at [00:01:00] companies like GitHub and Okta, helping them to become high functioning and self optimized. Rachel, we have a lot to talk about today. So welcome to The Authority. Rachel Rider: Ross, thanks so much for having me. It's really good to be here. Ross Romano: I wanted to start right with the title of the book because I feel like that's kind of a thesis right there. Right? Who you are is how you lead. Can you start us there by just talking about what's the meaning behind that and, and what you are, proposing? Rachel Rider: Sure. I'd love to start with actually what it is not. I so often hear folks say, that's just the way I am. This is who I am. And, and leave it at that. It's kind of like a way to, to not take accountability or look at yourself. And the premise of my book, Who You Are Is How You Leave, is really about this idea that in the moment. Who you are in that moment. If you're angry, if you're frustrated, if you're happy, if you're excited, that's how you show up as a leader. And so what I'm saying and what this book is [00:02:00] talking about is it's so important to understand what's going on inside you, how you respond to circumstances, how you respond to people on your team, because the clearer you are in understanding that, the better you can be in charge of it, because that's what's going to inform how you show up, how you lead. Ross Romano: Right. And, and you have a of course, particular approach to coaching around a lot of neurological processes, which we'll talk about. And, so certain things may or may not come up in your approach, but, related to this, It's one of the things that often is part of discussions in various coaching contexts that some of our listeners may or may not be familiar with is, kind of looking at the distinction between who you are, quote unquote, or who you think you are and who you're being, right? And that, that there are a lot of, as you said, sometimes that can be used as either a pessimistic phrase or an excuse or, well, I, this is who I am. And that,[00:03:00] that indicates, well, I can't change or I can't do things that way. And, and sometimes there's that thought about, well, Let's start by doing things differently and then maybe you will feel like you're becoming a different person. Maybe at the very least, you'll feel like you're learning how to function differently in whatever role you're in. Particularly for those who are interested, right? And we'll talk about coachability, of course, as we go on here, but you know, for leaders who are saying, well, I want to do well in my role. I'm open to change, but I just don't think I can change, or I just think I have a certain way, to start by saying, well, let's think about how, how are you showing up? How are you being, how are you interacting with people around you? Let's set aside who you quote unquote think you are, your personality, all those things will, will get to them, right? Over time, but because it is that, that, that [00:04:00] initial hurdle, to get over is, okay, I have somebody who's saying I'm, I'm interested in, This I want to be better. I want to be great. But is it really possible for me? Or, as you say once you get into that leadership position, quote unquote, whatever that is in your organization, the things that got you there are different than the things you have to do once you're there. Okay. Of course some people are going to experience doubt. Some are just not gonna know what they don't know. But how does that change once, okay, now I'm in, I'm a vp, I'm a chief executive, I'm a a school leader, I'm a whatever. And now my job, the things that that caught the eye of, of the people that put me in this position are no longer the things that are going to serve Rachel Rider: Yeah, it's so confusing to a lot of folks. I just want to normalize that, that you step into these larger roles because you've done so well at [00:05:00] executing. And no one talks about the real job description. That's actually one of the first chapters of the book. I have a client once who said to me, why didn't anyone tell me it was all about relationships? You know, he was this VP of engineering. He kept getting promoted because he was really technically skilled. And the higher he got in the organization, the more he alienated folks, because he was so determined to push the quality of the product that he was trying to ensure through, instead of understand the relationships around him. Because at the highest level, that means that he actually has to work through other people, and not just the other people on his team, but the people next to him, because those folks have a stake in what he's doing and a say. And so at the highest levels of an organization, as a leader, It becomes very disorienting because very few people are saying, Hey, I don't want you to pay attention to the goal. I want you to pay attention to the relationships to get you to the goal. And [00:06:00] that's the vital piece there. (ad here 6:03.00) Ross Romano: Underpinning relationships are interpersonal skills and personal competencies. How teachable are those skills here? Rachel Rider: I have, now I'm, this is a small subset of thousands of leaders, not millions, but I have never met a leader who couldn't do it. If they wanted to. That's the piece. Someone needs to step into this work and be like, I want to look at myself to make sure I can change what's going on around me. The places where I see it as unsuccessful when that leader steps into the coaching and is saying, and that person's wrong and this person's at fault and they're, I'm never going to be able to do this if none of them change. That's not fertile ground for coaching. Relationship. Someone needs to step in and be like, okay, I get that I can't control my environment, but I can [00:07:00] control me. Let's take a look at that. Consistently, someone walks into my virtual office and they will change profoundly. And then their environment will change. It's so cool. But you have to start with you. And so anytime someone's willing to do that, I'm not in the business of guaranteeing, but I would do close to that. You will see change when you show up that way. Ross Romano: That certainly touches on the question, what. makes a leader coachable, right? And, particularly for those out there who maybe, maybe they've had coaching in the past and they didn't feel like they got the results they wanted and it's time to reflect on, well, maybe it was something I was doing, right? Or maybe those who haven't, had coaching before and kind of want to wrap their head around, okay, what do I have to do or how do I have to prepare myself in order to make sure that I've, ready to improve, ready to get results, open to the experience. How, how do [00:08:00] you kind of identify once you're working with somebody the, the qualities that are making them either very coachable, very willing to, right, engage in the process and get a lot out of it? Versus those who maybe eventually get there, but, but may at least start out kind of creating a lot of barriers and inhibitors to really experiencing growth. Rachel Rider: I would say three things. I would say self reflection. Hmm. What did I do recently? Self awareness. Ooh, I noticed that I did X, Y, and Z recently. And curiosity. Ooh, what was happening that made me do that? How did I impact those around me and what is going on? When you have self reflection, self awareness, and curiosity, the situation and circumstances you're in is ripe for change. Now there's a couple of things I want to Sometimes you [00:09:00] are in such a difficult circumstance that the learning and the self accountability and the change isn't worth it. That's up to the individual to decide. Is it time to step away? Or is it time to lean in and really take this as a learning opportunity for myself? Once you get clear on that, and I think the clarity on that is when you feel like you've done everything you can and it still feels unpennable. That's when I feel like you're allowed to step away and say, you know what, life's going to hand me another learning opportunity. Peace be with you. I'm on to the next thing. So, but then when it, and I would say if you find this being a consistent issue in the next three things, then I'd say maybe it isn't the toxic situation. Maybe it is you. Maybe you need a different coach, but when you are starting to look at yourself and understand, how is my behavior impacting those around me? I was just actually, I, we have Coach on our team, and I provide supervision to all of our coaches, and we were [00:10:00] talking about a client of hers who's seen a profound level of change. This client was very senior in a very large organization, and the feedback that she was getting was she was showing up very frazzled and stressed and taking on too much, not empowering others, but then being critical. There was this kind of hero mentality, but then resentment and frazzleness around it. And through her coach, through her work with her MettaWorks coach, it's so cool. Recently she showed up and she's like, I just realized that I don't have infinite capacity and that is a good thing. And it took her a while to look inside. What is that patterning for her to realize? No, actually, my capacity is finite. And that is a blessing because then I need to appropriately prioritize. I need to empower people on my team. I need to strengthen my relationships with my team members so that they can get what they need done. And I can step out of the [00:11:00] weeds. Ross Romano: Yeah, yeah, that relates to there's a process around. teaching that a lot of our educator listeners will be familiar with, gradual release of responsibility, which is transitioning from, more of a teacher led approach to having the student take more ownership and, and kind of helping them build up their capacity, right, take ownership of their learning over time, and that, what that process looks like. And Similar thing with kind of that delegation. Okay. I'm in a leadership role. And the reason that I got into this role, right, is because I have a lot of expertise at doing these different things. However, my job description has changed. And. How do I create the conditions whereby, number one, I am emphasizing and prioritizing building team capacity, right? And giving them opportunities to keep improving so that they can take [00:12:00] on those responsibilities. But also being aware of, of my ability to create the environment for that to happen because so often, sometimes maybe it doesn't happen because. I'm in the leadership role and I haven't shifted my mindset accordingly and I'm still doing the job that I used to do and I'm not doing the job that I should be doing. Sometimes it could be I'm just failing to exhibit trust or to put myself in their shoes and understand that they want this growth opportunity but other times it's Okay we feel like we're always fighting some tight deadline or some other kind of urgent conditions. And it's easier for me to just do this myself and get it done. Because if I have them trying to learn, it doesn't quite go right. And then this thing happens if that thing happens. So there's also a thing to say, like, You have to stick with it and you have to be mindful. You have [00:13:00] to be persevering. You have to stick with it and you have to do everything you can do to create the conditions, to ensure that you're strengthening team capacity. And then in the long run, it will serve you, versus those short term fixes that seem like they're easier, but really you have limited capacity, you're burning out and you're not maximizing your team. Rachel Rider: Yeah, I'd love to say that the best and worst part of relationships is that you can't break them very easily. And so keep coming back and keep iterating and keep communicating and experimenting about what does it mean to empower someone else? How much do they understand what success looks like? Does it align with their interests? That ongoing conversation is It's vital to being able to strengthen your team and your relationships there and so really, the book talks about how to understand what's going on in yourself if you're not having those relationships. You know, it's leadership one on one and I would imagine [00:14:00] education is the same where you orient towards the person, even if the content is what you're teaching. And that's the same when running a team. And so it's so important if you're not doing that to understand what's going on inside of you that's keeping you from having an important conversation. That's the first step in order to be able to move forward effectively. Ross Romano: Yeah, if so, given what we've talked about so far, it's making me wonder, you know, let's say we, we have a listener who is at a, whatever the highest level leadership position is, but of course, within that there's, there's other management and leadership positions and they may be evaluating who's ready to move into what role. Given that the relationships are going to be the core of the leadership skills. I mean, Is the way that we are selecting leaders correct? I mean, if, if they're being chosen [00:15:00] based on different competencies than the ones that they need to use when they're in the leadership role. Should we be rethinking even how we're evaluating and determining who should be taking on these positions? Rachel Rider: I think that's a great question. One that I think the tech world continues to ask. I do a lot of work in the tech world and it's becoming clear that some people can get promoted as an individual contributor to a very senior position because they love to just write code Ross Romano: Uh huh Rachel Rider: versus the person who gets promoted because they are the right fit to manage a large team and communicate well and give feedback in a good way. But I do think it's worth the conversation if you are running an organization to really look at what is it, what's the message you're sending when you're promoting someone, what behavior is being rewarded, and what are you actually looking for in that role? Because that's the only way you're going to set your people up [00:16:00] for success. Besides hiring us, we're here to help too, if that's already happened and you've got people in roles that need a little help. Ross Romano: Right. Yeah, the tech world is an interesting one. It's, having spoken to various people there and, and understanding, right, that depending on your skills and interests as an employee, you can opt. To not become a people managers and, and without loss of compensation. Right. And, and I've had people express, well, I don't want to do that because that seems like more work to me and it's not worth more money. I think that's very different from how most organizations work, which could, there could be some positives to it to say, well, if the only way to advance in an organization is to become a manager of people and you don't. If you feel like that's really where your heart is or what you want to do, then that probably leads to problems for [00:17:00] organizations, right? On the other hand, I don't know does it create, challenges to have a lot of individual contributors who are very highly compensated and who aren't, contributing to teams in that way. It's an interesting we would have to go case by case probably and look at those things. But in any case Rachel Rider: Well, one thing I would want to say to that, what you're saying is there is something that I would say that maybe wouldn't be a 50 50 split, but it's pretty high up in the percentage of people who presume they wouldn't want to be a leader of folks because of certain things. We actually have a client now who's already very high up in leadership and she's inheriting a large team and she said to her coach recently, she's just like, I can't handle more needy. Folks, it's just I feel at the end of my rope. And in that statement actually was a deep belief system of I don't know how to draw interpersonal boundaries, and I feel [00:18:00] like their needs become my needs. Now that's very different from can I manage people? She's very good at it. And so the reason why I'm bringing this up is it's so important as you're thinking about Being a leader is what is the struggle that you're having and maybe it's related to your own belief system. And so that's the place actually her and her coach worked was, Oh, what am I responsible for here in terms of my people's happiness? Right. I cannot be responsible for other people's happiness. I can be responsible to help them know what success looks like in their role, help them feel seen and heard. Those are very different things. And so one thing I do want to call out is that sometimes we bring presumptions into this leadership role about what we should be doing. And those presumptions, Warrant an examination, because actually if we look closely, maybe they're not all so true. And so, yes, I agree. Case by case, it's important to look at. And there might be an opportunity here to [00:19:00] check your own belief systems. I Ross Romano: yeah, and I, certainly our individual perceptions of our qualifications or preparedness, right, for leadership, can be affected by things that are quite arbitrary, right? As we talked about in the tech world, the way that job titles may work and roles and even teams where, okay, here's a team of six people that work together on this core function and they all have the same title. I'm not technically in charge of that team, but there might be somebody who's the most, there might be somebody who just naturally takes on a lot of leadership roles, but they may not see themselves as qualified for a leadership role in the context of that industry, because they think, well, I've never done it. Well, maybe there's a [00:20:00] company that's not in the tech industry, but that has technology teams that might say, well, you have exactly the experience we want. Right. And are you interested in that? Is that something that you might want? You have all of the experience of having done it, of even having done it. Even the harder way of having gained leadership through influence or through relationships, right? Or through being good at your job. And once you go over here to a company that operates a little bit differently, whatever your supposed title was over here no longer matters. It matters how can you speak to the objectives you would have in that role and what you might want to do. It might. Exactly hit on all these things we're talking about. Well, in our team, these are the things we did, right? We had, we were successful because we had those relationships and there was nobody there who could just tell everybody what to do and they had to do it. We had to come to solutions and consensus and all of those things. [00:21:00] And, I guess that, that leads me into what do you find when you have. You know, leaders that come to you and they have certain pain points, things that they're challenged by, or that they want to improve, which of, what, what comes up most often there, and how, how accurately. Are they typically diagnosing the underlying causes? I mean, damn it, do they usually say, I know exactly what it is? Or come to you and say, look, I'm challenged in these ways, and, and I need you to help me figure it out. Rachel Rider: would say usually every, and that's for all of us, usually the presenting issue isn't the underlying cause. That's why we seek help. And Metalworks works with usually privately held companies with 8 to 10 figures in revenue, and it's most senior leaders. And so often the clientele is coming with [00:22:00] Something's not working. I've got a very successful company, but I can't enjoy my success. I feel like I'm dying inside. I'm exhausted. I can't leverage this beautiful team that I've built, or my team isn't getting along. So the presenting problem often feels confusing because things are going well, but there's an issue that feels fairly high stakes and is impacting the individual's well being. And usually the underlying cause is exactly what I'm talking about. An understanding of our inner world and these deeply held belief systems that are creating conflict within the organization. So, like I said, that that leader who was like, more people, just more needs that I need to fill the belief system is, oh, I am responsible for all those people's needs there's another leader that I was working with where she felt like her account, she, the, the culture of the company was, [00:23:00] Equality and, and making sure everyone's available. There were yes, there were reporting structures, but you could reach out to anyone. And she is the CEO felt she should be able to be reached out to too. And so her calendar was just an open book for people to schedule time. And that felt like a very important cultural pillar that was deeply disrupting her ability to run the company. And so one of the things we really examined is, well, how do you, how can you exemplify that in a way to hold up the cultural pillar, but also run your company with your vision and your ability to set strategy and step out of the weeds and really allow this company to flourish. And so, so often what I see is the presenting issue is. Is really a byproduct of these deeply, deeply held belief systems that, to your point, had served very well. So not just explicitly you execute, you execute, you do well, you get rewarded, you get promoted, but also those inner belief systems of, if I [00:24:00] push To my max, it will get done. Doesn't matter that I pushed to my max, but all of a sudden you've been pushing to your max so much that you can barely get out of bed. (ad here 24:10.00) Rachel Rider: I have a CEO who came to me recently and was like, I literally can't even bring myself to look at my calendar. This is multi million dollar company. And so one of the things we're examining is she has never created time for herself. And it's confusing. That's what got this company so successful. Is it okay to do that now? And so that's what we're examining. How do you honor that golden nugget of wisdom that's gotten you here and just not let it be in charge anymore where it doesn't have to come to the extreme? Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely something I would like our listeners to take away, particularly if they are unfamiliar with coaching and haven't done it before, or is that... There's [00:25:00] so many insights and eventual decisions, right, that are, it's situational, things change, things evolve, right, it's not about, okay, which is the right thing to do and which is the wrong thing to do, sometimes something is clearly wrong, but usually it's okay, each of these is the right thing to do. So, yeah. objectively a good option, but which is the best one for us, right? I, you know, work with a variety of professionals on performance coaching around their own career, and a lot of them start with the pain point of, I think it's time for me to leave my job. I don't exactly know what I want to do next, but I think it's time to go. And that's fine, but, but we don't start by assuming that that's definitely the way it's going to go, right? We take a step back and look at everything and what's happening with working your career and what are you interested in? How's it going? What's good? What's [00:26:00] bad? What about other areas of life? What are your goals? These, okay, and sometimes it's like, yes, there's no way to get to what your goals are from where you are. Or sometimes there's just so much baggage associated with it for whatever reason that. The only way to clear that out, but sometimes it's okay, you can actually create the conditions for what you're interested in within where you are, but you just need to understand what's impacting you or sometimes it's the, but it's kind of saying that, What may have been the best thing before might not be the best thing anymore, what might be the best thing next is different. What's best for your company, for you as an individual, the thing that served you well to get where you are is the thing that's going to prevent you from getting where you want to go, and it's time to shift, and that's, I think that's part of why it's such a helpful process is because it's [00:27:00] continuous, right? It's not. Okay, let's sit down, let's get all the answers, and now you know exactly what to do forever, because organizations are living, they change, things are different. P. O. Sometimes just it's different people come and go and now we need to operate a little differently. And an organization, of course, continues to thrive is one that changes with that. I wanted to. talk about the thing that really sparks those insights, which is the questions, right? It's asking the right questions. It's, it's those prompts, those things that even in the circumstances, maybe where a leader might sit down with you and say, everything's great at all. I don't have anything to talk about, right? That those right prompts can kind of start the wheels turning you when it's hard. And I know that, I think you make a kind of [00:28:00] differentiation between the... A focus on thinking and thought patterns. It's common in a lot of coaching and, and habitual and emotional responses. And, so from your approach, what, where do you focus and what are some of the. The questions that would align to that, where you would start and how and why, do you contrast that with what might be more common among a lot of coaches? Rachel Rider: Yeah, so myself and my coach are trained as somatic experiencing practitioners. And the premise of that is that there's a great deal held in your nervous system and that habitual responses actually live in your neural pathways and not your brain. And so when your brain and your body are at odds, your brain is like, I need to go to the gym and your body's like, Nope, I'm not getting out of bed. Who usually wins? Your body. If your body doesn't usually win, you're doing a great job. [00:29:00] Maybe you don't need coaching to go to the gym, but that premise is taken into leadership. When you have in your mind, if you're at the level where you're like, Oh, I know it's probably unhelpful to be screaming at my direct reports right now. And yet physically you cannot help yourself because you're frustrated. That's what lives in your body. And so our work is to help unravel those habitual responses in your neural pathways. And so often we need to facilitate a conversation between your head. And your emotional experience between your head and your felt physical experience, because when that conversation happens, that's when behavior shifts. And so often when a client is talking to me about a frustration about something they're having with their, their team or how they're showing up with their team, the first place we'll go is, when did, what did you start noticing in your body as this happened? My jaw started to clench, my heart started to beat, and that kind of tracking [00:30:00] starts the steps to changing the behavior, but first we have to cultivate an awareness around it. Ross Romano: Yeah. And, I mean, as that process goes on, I mean, we're starting with. The openness to change, right? To engage in some difficult conversation, to think about some things that are not necessarily easy, that are, that are going to require shifts, and then as the process continues, I mean, a huge part of it is the accountability, right, and having a coach that holds you accountable for making those changes, that as a leader, of course, having accountability among your team and You write about compassionate accountability and which reminds me a lot of conversations we've had, in some previous episodes sort of around the upside of accountability on it, which is like accountability as a [00:31:00] word typically comes with some negative connotations, maybe some negative emotional responses to what it is and, and, and how it can be used as, but on the flip side, that accountability can also be the way of demonstrating authentic care for the other person, their outcomes, their improvement. etc. We've talked about this with teachers and students, right? How a teacher who, in the right way, compassionate way, holds their students accountable for their work is showing that they actually are invested in that student's growth, that they're invested that they're not just like turning a blind eye and saying, whatever, do whatever you want to do. You know, same thing here, right? With leaders [00:32:00] and, and it has to be done in the right way. And it's about what are the objectives? Why are we having accountability? What's it for? What are we trying to do with that enables? I think probably someone to develop the right approach. Rachel Rider: Yeah, there's an exercise I really like to do around this to help someone, like you said, not use accountability as a, self criticism tool, but as a curiosity. And what I do is I have a client who kind of affectionately calls it having a summit. And it's the different parts within you, the different voices of what's going on. So my client is very self critical. And The accountability piece is really what the self criticism immobilizes her to action. And so really the accountability pieces to say, hey, this isn't working. So let's get curious about why so that we can help you actually mobilize. And so what we do is [00:33:00] we really. I have the different parts within her, her self critical voice is a ninja turtle, and you know, her petulant, person that wants to do exactly what the critical voice says not to is this little girl, and so she brings them all to the table to have a conversation, and so there's some playfulness here and some fun. Yeah. Compassionate curiosity of, hey, what's going on? And what is the wisdom that each of these have so that we can listen and make a decision without letting one be in charge? And so I think when you bring that curiosity to what's going on, why can't I bring myself, coming back to my client who can barely bring herself to look at her calendar in the morning? Why can I do that? What's happening for me here? It's that exhaustion, that deep burnout. Okay, what's going on that that's led to that and that's happening in this moment instead of just berating yourself for not being able to do it? Ross Romano: Yeah. And, and, and being [00:34:00] tuned into the relationship is, is critical with the accountability piece one, because it is how you establish credibility to have the accountability, right, and I'm only going to allow people to hold me accountable for things that I respect them and their intentions and my relationship to them, otherwise I don't really need to listen to them, but also because there is variability in it. Thank you. What's that next step after we've failed an accountability test on something, right? And determining, okay, what is going to best serve this person next? You know, perhaps you've been through this, with particular clients as a coach, certainly, where let's say we had an agreement that the client was going to do a particular [00:35:00] homework assignment or whatever before the next time we met, and they didn't do it. And now I need to determine what serves this person best. Is it, you know what, I'm not coaching you anymore until you're going to show more commitment to the process? Is it, it's giving them a second chance, right? And different people, for different people, it's a different thing that's going to get them to where they need to be. And then in organizations same thing, something slips, it falls, it doesn't quite go right, and now I need to make a decision about what's the, what is going to help this person best next time. If I don't have a relationship with them, and I don't understand them, and I don't really know, then I just have maybe a one size fits all, and I end up having a lot of attrition of talent, or I end up making completely wrong decisions about, what goes next. I mean I guess. Compassion without relationship is, it's something a little different. Rachel Rider: Well, and I [00:36:00] think in all those, yeah, well, and I think in all of those circumstances, the first question is what happened here? I'm, I'm confused. I thought that the, the idea was X. Ross Romano: Right. Rachel Rider: Why happened? Help me understand what happened. Did you understand the assignment? What got in the way for you? I I really like to have the golden rule of three, that you have that conversation three times. What happened here? What's getting in the way? Let me clarify my expectation, my definition of success, and you tell me if that tracks with yours. And on the third time, there's consequence conversation. But the first couple of times, I guarantee you will be often surprised by what the answer is. Ooh, I totally misunderstood that that's the definition of success in this, or I really struggled because I've been really having a hard time with doing this for and that there really opens up a [00:37:00] conversation to strengthen the relationship, but like you said, that there's an accountability. We're not letting it slide, but we are trying to understand why it happens so we can solve for the heart of the issue. Ross Romano: Yeah. What is your perspective on the importance of lived experience for for the coach as it relates to those relationships? Sometime maybe in being able to share some of it, but otherwise in just. Having had a variety of experiences and being able to, to kind of contextualize, the challenges that leaders may be going through, even if they're not exactly the same as the things that you've done, or, or do you believe it's not as important? Rachel Rider: I think that the kind of coaching that you're offering is vital for fluency. So at Meadowworks, it's very clear. We don't do [00:38:00] strategic coaching. We don't do organizational coaching. Yes. Our coaches are familiar with that, but what we do is we help you understand your inner world so that you can show up and orient to your relationships in the context of your professional environment. We are deeply fluent in that. We have extensive training on the inner world in many different capacities. And so, what I think is important is that we are experts in our field. If I have not been a CEO of a 200 million organization, I'm not worried about that because I'm not coaching the CEO about their 200 million organization. I'm coaching him or her on how to show up within that organization, how to understand how are they getting in their own way in leveraging their team effectively. And so I think it's really important to be clear on the kind of coaching you're offering so that you can be the expert in the field of Ross Romano: Yeah, and that's helpful too, right, to the... The leader who may be [00:39:00] seeking coach and figuring out what am I looking for? What, how, how do I find the person who's going to be able to help me with what I want? Do I, does it need to be somebody whose resume looks like mine except Rachel Rider: Yes. Ross Romano: five years down the road? Or do I need somebody who can, has certain expertise in other areas? You know, and again, and. There's a variety out there, right? And when I think of the lived experience point, I think of essentially people who maybe went directly into coaching from, like that was their. First and exclusive career, right? And they may have a lot of skills and experience in it, but there also may be something that is not that some context and perspective that can't be there because of That's but nowadays has somebody ever worked in an office or not, things like that, that just you [00:40:00] have a little bit of an idea of what those dynamics are and those politics or different types of organizations or things that I color how we understand when somebody's describing to us what they're going through and we just have sort of a reference point for it doesn't necessarily mean it was me that was in that position, but I was in the room or I know somebody else or I have this thing and, and also sometimes it's like that's part of opening up a leader who is struggling with Having the appropriate maybe level of introspection or vulnerability is, I have an example of something that was very similar to this. I mean, all those different things. I mean, we certainly know that part of becoming highly effective as a leader is the willingness to grapple with that, to, to really be open to [00:41:00] whatever insights come. And. Rachel Rider: and I think you need different coaches at different times you talked about someone making a decision, a career decision, versus I had a CEO who had been working with a coach exactly on that, on the strategy of his company. And then he was shouting, he's like, my company is good. I'm worried about me. I'm tapped out to the max. I don't, I'm saying yes to my people when I shouldn't be. I need your help with that. And so I think it's all about the context of what you need in the moment, because that will change too. And what's amazing about this world is there are so many people in it to help you with your different needs over the course of your career. Ross Romano: Yeah. So Rachel, the last thing I, I wanted to ask you about, and it's featured in the book marketing. I think it's even on your LinkedIn editor, but, but it's this idea. Work is where your demons go to hide. And kind of wanted to wrap up on that. I'm sure it's going to tie into a lot of what we've already discussed. But what do you mean by that? And, and why is [00:42:00] that important for our listeners to think about? Rachel Rider: I love the phrase because... These days, people are really aware of therapy for their personal life, and they're working on themselves and their relationships, and people don't think of their professional world the same way, and so it doesn't always occur to them that what's happening in their personal life actually often translates and shows up in their professional life, but they're not looking for it. So a great example is that CEO I just told you about who reached out and said, I'm saying yes too much. and I can't handle it anymore. His demons of over accommodating just nestled themselves into a CEO role and hung out there because you know what? Money was on the line, he kept making money, he built a beautiful company from doing that, and so why would he look and examine those closely until it was too late? And here he is burnt out and needing help and looking at that. which is funny because that's a place he's been working on in his personal life with his partner. [00:43:00] And so it's, it's so important that we start to cultivate an awareness of, oh, we allow our demons that have taken such good care of us as our survival mechanisms to flourish in our professional life unexamined. Because sometimes they serve us. It's like, checking those box or is so much more soothing than trying to have a difficult interpersonal conversation. And so we just returned to checking the boxes and that might be one of our demons, which is, Ooh, just my list of things to do is so soothing to me. I'm going to do that first. And so it's so important that we examine what are, what are we doing in our professional lives? That's actually getting in the way for us now that no longer serves us, but did take care of us for a very long time. And so the thing that we then need to do is not To throw those demons away, but to give them an education, Hey, you don't need to do that any longer. Or we can do it differently that we keep those things that used to work for us close to us, but maybe give [00:44:00] them an updated education. Ross Romano: Yeah, yeah, I like that. And it, I mean, it also, makes me think about core values and conversations I often have with people around identifying their core values, but also saying, like, myths applied. They can work against you. You know, one of the good things about really being solid in your values is that you can, at least in your own view and awareness of your atmosphere, hold your organization accountable for having values that align with yours. But if you're living them one sided, you may be putting yourself constantly at a disadvantage and you may be in the wrong place. Because it. Can serve you really well, but also sometimes you even misdefining your own your own values or what you mean by it or what it's supposed to look like, and sounds very similar that there's a [00:45:00] reason and yet we find out, oh, it's, it's What I'm doing with it, though, is really not helping right now, or not helping anymore. Rachel, what, where can listeners learn more about your work? We'll put the link to the book below on Amazon, but is there anywhere else you'd like to direct them? Rachel Rider: Yeah, you can find us on our website Meta Works, M e t T A W O R K s.io, and you can look for me and Meta Works on LinkedIn as well as Instagram. Instagram is@meta.works. Ross Romano: Excellent. We'll put those links below, the links to metaworks. io. LinkedIn and everything. And certainly the book, the book, once again, listeners is who you are, is how you lead. And, please do check that out. Please also subscribe to the authority for more in depth author interviews like this one and visit bpodcast. network to learn about all of our shows. Rachel Ryder, thanks so much for being on the show. Rachel Rider: Thanks so much for having me, Ross. It was a pleasure.[00:46:00]