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Will Major League Baseball Ever Have a Hard Salary Cap? (with Wayne and Al Damerow) · Hangin' Out with Bob

0:06
OK, welcome to Hanging Out with Bob, podcast
0:09
hosted by me, Bob At Home. Thanks for joining
0:16
us and let's get started. Well, as most of our
0:21
listeners know by now, I like to talk primarily
0:23
about music and sports, movies too, I guess.
0:27
In this podcast, though, we're going to talk
0:29
about sports. Specifically, we're going to talk
0:36
about Major League Baseball and an issue that
0:38
could affect, in the not too distant future,
0:41
Major League Baseball as we know it. And that
0:43
issue is salary caps. A salary cap is basically
0:51
an agreement between two distinct groups, the
0:54
team owners and the baseball players union. The
0:57
cap sets a monetary limit on each team's player
1:00
payroll. The consensus among the 30 major league
1:03
baseball owners is that a salary cap is needed
1:05
to one, control costs, and two, promote competitive
1:09
balance. In other words, to make sure that the
1:13
smaller market or mid -market teams, like the
1:15
Minnesota Twins for example, can compete with
1:18
the larger market teams like the New York Yankees
1:20
and the Los Angeles Dodgers, to name just two.
1:23
But while the baseball owners are in favor of
1:26
a salary cap, the Major League Baseball Players
1:28
Association, the players' union, has historically
1:31
even fiercely opposed it. The players' union
1:34
says that one, a hard salary cap artificially
1:38
limits the players' earning potential because
1:40
it transfers a greater portion of league revenues
1:42
from player salaries to team owners' profits.
1:45
And two, the Major League Baseball Players Association
1:48
probably the most powerful union in professional
1:51
sports, has successfully resisted a cap for decades.
1:55
So why agree to a cap now, in other words? Joining
1:58
me for this podcast to talk about proposed salary
2:00
caps in Major League Baseball are brothers Wayne
2:03
and Al Damro. All three of us grew up in Columbia
2:06
Heights, Minnesota. Both Wayne and Al have appeared
2:09
together with me on a couple of previous podcasts,
2:11
and all three of us are also baseball fans. And
2:14
I think the three of us are still twins fans.
2:19
Something that hasn't been so easy to say or
2:21
to be these days. Wayne and Al, welcome back
2:24
to Hanging Out with Bob. Great to have you here
2:26
again. Thank you very much. Thanks, Bob. What
2:32
Wayne, Al and I will talk about in this podcast
2:35
is how salary structures for the players have
2:37
evolved in Major League Baseball over the years.
2:41
We'll split this podcast into four main parts.
2:44
Part one, we'll talk about the reserve clause.
2:47
a system that used to exist in Major League Baseball,
2:50
and how the transition was made to the current
2:52
pre -agency system. Part 2 will explain as best
2:56
as we can what salary caps are, because there
2:59
are both hard salary caps and soft salary caps.
3:03
A hard salary cap is the one that's never been
3:06
implemented in Major League Baseball. Part 3
3:09
We'll also talk about possible alternatives to
3:12
a hard salary cap in Major League Baseball. In
3:15
other words, if the players union refuses to
3:17
agree to a hard salary cap, what options are
3:20
available to avoid things like owner lockouts
3:22
and player strikes? And part four, as lifelong
3:26
fans of baseball, Wayne, Al, and I will share
3:29
what we think should and or will happen regarding
3:33
salary caps for Major League Baseball. OK, Wayne
3:36
and Al, all three of us have done our homework.
3:38
We've done some digging with regard to salary
3:41
caps for major league baseball. So let's begin
3:44
our deep dive. Part one, the reserve clause.
3:50
Now, guys, if we're going to talk about salary
3:51
caps and why major league baseball owners insist
3:54
that a salary cap is needed, we first need to
3:57
go back about 50 years to the mid 70s to talk
4:00
about a system of major league baseball that
4:03
had been in force for nearly a century. It was
4:06
called the Reserve Clause. So let's start with
4:13
the wide open discussion. What was the Reserve
4:15
Clause? Well, it's something you've got to almost
4:18
go back to 1900 when the American League was
4:21
just forming and you had the National League
4:23
there and they had concerns and the concerns
4:26
are still valid. Owners said that we needed something
4:29
like this to keep players' salaries down so that
4:31
teams could stay competitive. Their career back
4:34
then was that teams who had more money would
4:38
buy the better players and be more able to win.
4:41
And certainly something we're looking at nowadays,
4:44
and you can certainly see that with the Yankees,
4:45
the Dodgers, and the Mets. But it goes back that
4:48
far. Basically, they wanted to control when a
4:51
salaried player could be moved, or where they
4:55
could play, and what they would get paid for
4:57
doing. Interestingly enough, I saw a report from
5:02
1885. That was when the first players union was
5:06
formed. Wow. In other words, when you were a
5:09
little kid. Thank you. It is amazing how long
5:15
that reserve class has been in force almost 100
5:18
years. Yeah. But I guess the thing that's most
5:20
striking about it now because of free agency
5:22
is if you were a player in the major leagues,
5:25
that team, they owned you. And, you know, we'll
5:28
talk about a little bit later with Kurt Flood,
5:30
but, you know, they sometimes, you know, call
5:32
themselves indentured servants, because literally,
5:35
you know, you either took what they offered you,
5:39
or you didn't play, or you didn't play, or you
5:41
retired or left. That was your only option. Yeah,
5:44
they controlled you. They owned you. They were
5:46
the ones who could trade you if they wanted.
5:48
You had no say in it. Yep. The owners had complete
5:51
control of that. So the players, I mean, that's
5:53
just the way it was set up. Yeah, when a player
5:55
like Carmen Killebrew has to go big for a $5
5:58
,000 raise. Well, didn't they usually have to
6:01
have some kind of winter job, like got them sold
6:03
cars or the substitute teachers. Bob Allison
6:06
was a salesman for Coca -Cola. Yeah, right, right.
6:10
Yeah, they had to find other ways to do it. So,
6:12
well, I was going to say the three of us, we
6:13
grew up in the 60s and 70s, basically, when we
6:16
were kids and the reserve class was still in
6:18
effect. It was certainly in effect in 1961 when
6:22
the twins came to Minnesota from Washington.
6:23
DC. It was in effect in 1965 when the twins won
6:28
the American League pennant and went to the World
6:30
Series. It was also in effect in 1969 and 1970
6:34
when the twins won back -to -back American League
6:36
West Division championships. And during that
6:39
time, I mean just think about it, as memorable
6:41
as baseball was for us, with no free agency for
6:44
the baseball players, I meant guys like Willie
6:47
Mays, Hank Aaron, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson. Herman
6:53
Killebrew, Frank Robinson, Roberto Clemente,
6:56
those are just some of the guys I'm thinking,
6:57
but all of them were part of that reserve clause.
7:00
They weren't free agents and they certainly didn't
7:03
make the money that players today could make.
7:05
You know, even adjusted for inflation, it was
7:07
still like minuscule. Yeah, not even close, not
7:10
even close. So the next big question, guys, is
7:13
how did things go from the reserve clause, which,
7:16
like I said, was in effect for nearly 100 years,
7:19
to free agency in Major League Baseball? How
7:21
was this transition actually accomplished? I
7:24
think we already talked about it before we started
7:26
recording, but you mentioned that one player.
7:29
Kurt Flood. Kurt Flood, yep. He was, I'll feel
7:32
the right for this, he was Cardinals. Yep, very
7:34
good player. Yeah, really, really good player.
7:37
And his deal was he got... Traded right he was
7:39
he got he got traded to the Phillies and he refused
7:42
He didn't want to go play for the Phillies, right,
7:45
right And so ended up going to the Supreme Court
7:48
court. Yes, right, right Yeah, the Supreme Court
7:51
said, you know, they kept the reserve clause
7:54
in effect and by not siding with him but I think
7:58
the court also suggested that this is something
8:00
that should be addressed either by Congress or
8:03
through arbitration, you know, you know figure
8:05
it out and so Well, Kurt Flaud lost his court
8:09
case from what I've read and I'm sure you do
8:11
too, that this fight that he had really galvanized
8:14
the players union. That kind of gave them some
8:15
momentum. Right. There was a second event that
8:18
I looked up and you guys probably had this too
8:20
when you were looking up at, um, Dave McNally
8:22
and Andy Messersmith. Yep. Yep. They were both,
8:26
let's see, Messersmith was with the Dodgers and
8:29
McNally was with the Orioles and he'd been traded
8:31
to Montreal Expos. Um, I think after the 74th
8:34
season, but. Would they like playing without
8:37
a contract or something? Yes, they played that
8:39
season without a contract. And so they were challenging
8:43
the reserve clause by doing that. And that's
8:46
when this gentleman named Peter Sites. I don't
8:50
really remember the name, but in my research
8:52
I did. He was the arbitrator and he ruled in
8:55
favor of Mr. Smith and McNally, and they called
8:58
it the Sites decision. And basically what that
9:01
did was it dismantled the reserve clause and
9:04
established free agency. For the players and
9:07
gave the union all the power were right and then
9:09
in the winter of 76 I remember I was still living
9:12
here before I moved on to Iowa for the newspaper
9:14
job that CBA was on signed the collective bargaining
9:18
agreement and I think it was it allowed players
9:22
with six years of major league service To become
9:25
free agents and negotiate contracts with any
9:27
team. So that was like Huge really change the
9:31
landscape of baseball Let's talk for a minute
9:37
about that CBA agreement. Winners and losers,
9:41
if you will. Like, well, I'll throw out the first
9:44
one. I think the biggest winner, obviously, was
9:46
the Players Union. Because, you know, with the
9:50
free agency, remember Marvin Miller? I was going
9:53
to say the other big winner was Marvin Miller,
9:56
because he ended up becoming one famous and two
9:58
pretty wealthy as a result of it. Right, because,
10:01
and he was... He was a really good negotiator.
10:04
And he was there for a long time, too, right?
10:06
I mean, 76, but way beyond that. Wow. Yeah. Amazing.
10:11
And then, well, who else? Let's think of a couple
10:14
of obvious or at least one other obvious group
10:16
would be the players themselves. I mean, suddenly
10:19
they could go to any team. I mean, just imagine,
10:23
like we talked earlier, of Willie Mays or Hank
10:26
Aaron, as I would have just said. As a caveat
10:29
to that, though, the biggest winners there were
10:31
the top 20 % of the players. Right. The star
10:35
players. The ones who are going to get more money
10:37
because you want to land them. Who cares if you
10:40
got a shortstop batting 220, you know, you're
10:42
going to get someone who's batting 300. Yep.
10:44
We'll take him. Yep. And then the owners that
10:47
did have the money loved it because they just
10:50
said, okay, we'll buy our way. Yeah, here's what
10:53
we'll pay you, you know. And so while you had
10:56
that, you also have to think about who were the
10:58
losers in all this. And I'm thinking, you know,
11:02
because we're from Minnesota, I would have to
11:04
say Calvin Griffith really was a big loser. He
11:06
was one of the last family owned teams, right?
11:09
I mean, 100 % of his income came from the baseball
11:11
team. He wasn't a shipbuilder like Steinbrenner.
11:15
And he wasn't an entertainment lawyer like O'Malley
11:19
for the Dodgers. Yeah, but I mean, he had other
11:22
they had other streams of money to rely on. But
11:24
another one that it was unfortunate that it happened.
11:28
But Charles Finley the owner of the athletics
11:31
When he saw that when they first did their original
11:35
thing where they had that draft where you can
11:38
have up to 12 teams bidding for the services
11:40
of a player And you could have people bidding
11:43
when they did that Charles Finley was so upset
11:46
by that that he kind of like We're killing ourselves.
11:50
We're hurting ourselves and he was he lost eight
11:52
players from that ace team That had won the championship
11:55
in 74. Yes, and he ended up by 1980 He sold the
11:59
athletics and got out of baseball completely
12:01
and he'd been involved with baseball forever,
12:04
right? He was just so disgusted by the whole
12:06
thing that he just I'm not I'm done It was such
12:08
a change for owners like him. I said, no, this
12:11
isn't you know You could just hear Tom Cruise
12:13
going show me the money That was amazing. So
12:20
we had Griffith as one of the owners that was
12:22
really hurting. They said, Finley, that's another
12:24
good example. And I was going to talk about the
12:27
first reentry draft that they had. It was successful
12:30
for some and maybe not so much for others. But
12:33
I don't know, you probably were thinking the
12:35
same thing. Which player do you think benefited
12:36
the most, the quickest, I guess, as a result
12:39
of free agency? I'll give you a hint. He had
12:42
played for Oakland. Well, Reggie Jackson got
12:45
into a bidding contest between Montreal and the
12:48
Yankees, and Montreal actually, they offered
12:51
him more money. But he decided to go to the New
12:54
York because Reggie liked the attention and you're
12:56
not going to get the attention in Montreal playing
12:58
in front of 5 ,000 people, right? Yeah, and he
13:01
won two straight World Series. That's just it.
13:04
It paid off for the Yankees because they won
13:06
two World Series and three American League pennants
13:08
with him in that period. And then I thought of
13:12
two, but he got three and a half million dollars
13:15
for that contract. Talk about a steal. 3 .5 million
13:20
for I think this four or five -year contract.
13:24
Yeah, well, the numbers now have just gone up
13:27
so much. Even the guys that were considered wealthy
13:30
then, it's like, what? Compared to today. Chump
13:32
change. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can think of a couple
13:35
cases, though, where it didn't work out. So remember
13:37
the California Angels? Bobby Gritch. Yeah, Bobby
13:40
Gritch and Don Baylor and Joe Rudy. They run
13:43
the cover sports. Not not sports. I'll say the
13:45
sporting sporting news because I had a subscription
13:47
and they were, you know, together and I've got
13:50
a picture that here they they had like money
13:52
bags. It says New Angels locating loot, you know,
13:58
rich. But I don't think anything came from them
14:02
either that. Did they win in 79? It took him
14:06
three years and 77. Yeah, 79. They won. They
14:10
won the first of like two consecutive Western
14:12
Division championships. So they did do that.
14:14
But their first year, their first year after
14:16
they got those guys, they finished like six games
14:19
below 500. Yeah, complete bus, not even a factor.
14:22
So it didn't. They didn't have team chemistry
14:24
or pitching or whatever. I didn't have this written
14:26
down, but didn't Lyman Bostock also go there?
14:30
He left the Twins and went to the Angels. Wasn't
14:32
it 77? Well, it was a year after, I think. But
14:36
he played for the Angels, but then he was visiting
14:39
family in Indiana or Chicago or something, and
14:41
unfortunately. Yeah, but he went to the Angels,
14:45
too. I mean, it was part of the deal. And he
14:48
was playing well for them. Oh, yeah. He was a
14:50
great ball player. lucky to have him when they
14:52
did. Another player and I don't remember him,
14:56
but I just saw this in my research. You remember
14:57
a pitcher named Wayne Garland? Yes. He pitched
15:00
for Baltimore. He won 20 games the one year and
15:03
then he went to Cleveland. Yep. And he won 13
15:07
games and then he was hurt his rotator cuff,
15:10
which I can relate to. Yeah. Yeah. And he basically,
15:14
I think he won like 12 to 15 games the rest of
15:17
his career. Yeah. So yeah, there was the first
15:19
big bomb. It was a bust. It didn't work. So there's
15:23
no guarantee to pay all that money. Winners and
15:26
losers. Yep. Yep. Yep. Okay, part two salary
15:31
caps. The reason we're recording this podcast.
15:35
The current CBA between the team owners and the
15:37
players union runs through the 2026 season. The
15:41
reserve clause era is long gone. And we've been
15:43
in the free agency era since the mid 70s. But
15:46
as a result of free agency, we now have an issue
15:48
that is getting a great deal of attention. And
15:51
that is the baseball owner's desire to implement
15:53
a hard salary cap. So let's define some terms
15:59
here. There's a hard salary cap, which is what
16:02
the owners want and the players don't want. And
16:05
then there's a soft salary cap, which is actually
16:08
kind of what Major League Baseball has now. I
16:10
think it's better known as a luxury tax. But
16:13
we'll get more of that in just a moment. But
16:16
the soft salary cap is not working out so well,
16:18
at least according to the owners. So the next
16:20
big question, I guess we want to discuss is,
16:23
what are the main differences between a hard
16:25
salary cap and a soft salary cap? I think the
16:28
first thing I noticed is with a hard salary cap,
16:30
this is in theory, but there is a strict ceiling.
16:34
Yes, you don't go above it, whatever it is like
16:36
the NFL has one. The NHL has one, you can't go
16:40
above that. You can't you do. You're gonna, you
16:42
know, lose draft choices or contract to be voided.
16:46
Yeah, there's pretty substantial penalties if
16:47
you try to go over it or you do go over it. Right.
16:50
It's hard. There's no wiggle room. And then of
16:53
course, with the soft salary cap, where you have
16:56
a luxury tax, can you explain how that works?
16:59
I mean, if a team spends way more than what the
17:01
threshold was. Yeah, you can go, they have a
17:03
dollar amount that is set up. Here's your first
17:06
tier. Here's a second tier. And the first tier,
17:08
if you choose to spend over that, you can, and
17:11
you will pay... Call it a fine, call it a tax,
17:15
call it whatever, but you're going to pay an
17:17
additional amount. It's not too onerous if you
17:20
stay close to that first tier, but if you hit
17:22
the second tier, you are going to get hit with
17:25
some really serious financial penalties for going
17:28
up there to the point where it can take your
17:30
team from being profitable to non -profitable.
17:35
Baseball's luxury tax, if you will, is $241 million.
17:39
Right. Yep, for this year, right? Because they
17:41
adjust it every year. Every year it goes up.
17:44
And LA spent $350 million. So in effect, they're
17:50
paying $150 million fine. So they're spending
17:53
$500 million for salaries. Yeah, but it's like
17:57
they don't care. We get the money. You sell out
17:59
every game, you've got a great cable thing and
18:02
you have merchandise that goes out the door constantly.
18:05
So they don't care. Yeah, I'm glad you brought
18:08
that up Wayne because I had some other I looked
18:10
up a website called spot track calm and He said
18:14
that 241 million was a threshold for this season
18:17
They said here the Dodgers were at four hundred
18:20
five point two million. Well, whatever. It's
18:22
crazy The Mets were at three hundred thirty eight
18:24
point nine million. There's eight teams that
18:27
are yeah. Yep. Yep Yeah, the Yankees are above
18:30
it. The Phillies are above it and the twins after
18:34
you got rid all those players It meant 241 is
18:37
the ceiling. The twins are 139 .1 million. Go
18:45
twins. We're leading the league in something
18:47
at least. Well, no, there's six teams that have
18:50
less than us. Yeah, well, in fact, wasn't one
18:52
of them contender with the Brewers or somebody
18:56
that they've got a really yeah yeah and they
18:59
just clenched and they're gonna be in the playoffs
19:01
and so it can be done only thing is the way things
19:04
are going those players again want more money
19:05
eventually so then they'll have to and then it
19:07
comes down to how good Are you drafting? How
19:10
good are you developing your players? And that's
19:15
the biggest difference for small and medium market
19:17
teams to compete. They have to do it the traditional
19:19
way of drafting wisely, a key pick up here and
19:23
there maybe. Whereas like the Dodgers or the
19:25
Yankees, if something doesn't work out, well,
19:27
it's gone. Throw money at it. And for years,
19:30
the Yankees had a bad minor league system because
19:34
they had traded all their picks away in order
19:36
to get these. prospects in order to try to win
19:39
immediately. And they've gradually built it up
19:41
to where they have a good system now. But there
19:43
were several years where they were very bad in
19:45
the minor leagues. So we've defined what a hard
19:52
sour cap is and what a soft sour cap is. Let's
19:55
pretend you guys are the new owners of the twins.
20:00
From an owner's perspective. What are the potential
20:06
benefits of having a hard salary cap in Major
20:08
League Baseball? Being able to compete. Yeah,
20:11
the first thing anybody's going to say is from
20:13
that is it'll level the playing field. You can
20:16
argue that every team by only spending X amount
20:19
of dollars is going to choose how they spend
20:22
it. But you should be able to field teams that
20:24
are roughly equivalent. Right. You might have
20:27
a better shortstop that you're paying more than
20:28
my guy, but I might have a better center fielder.
20:31
We both come out OK. Right. Right. How about
20:34
with fans? I've heard said too that there's a
20:38
lot of, I know, apathy or people are just disgusted
20:41
with baseball now or something. If they knew
20:44
that... there was like a salary cap in force
20:46
and it could be more competitive that it might
20:48
increase or bring back some fans. I found a poll
20:52
that was taken recently and 67 % of the people
20:56
taking the poll were in favor of a salary cap
20:59
and this was just average fans. And the other
21:01
33 % probably didn't care about baseball. Right.
21:05
But they were going to the Loons game that night
21:06
or something. I went to that. That doesn't matter
21:11
about the loans, but just different interests,
21:13
I guess. I went to the twins game the other night
21:15
and I went with a guy who is a real avid lifelong
21:19
fan like us. And we are actually talking about
21:23
this. And he likes the concept of the hard cap,
21:27
but doesn't think it'll ever happen in our lifetimes.
21:31
And you know, the soft he thinks the only way
21:34
it will work out is if there's a soft cap that
21:36
has perhaps some more It's a little more bite
21:39
to it. There's a bigger penalty for it. I mean,
21:44
you look at the NBA, that second tier, teams
21:47
really don't want to hit that. And they do have
21:50
a soft cap. Yeah. They have a soft cap. And it
21:52
seems to work pretty well. You have certainly
21:54
certain teams compete all the time at the highest
21:57
levels. But other teams, look at Oklahoma and
22:00
the Timberwolves, they're competing. Okay, now
22:07
you guys take off your owner's caps and now you
22:09
guys are both elite major league ballplayers
22:14
The name to a couple three all -star teams You
22:18
both accumulated your six years of major league
22:20
service time and now you're eligible for free
22:23
agency And you just take that talk about a hard
22:25
cap and you stick it with Yeah If there's a hard
22:31
cap, how might that affect you? Yeah, so Well,
22:34
you probably won't be making Soto money or Shohei
22:38
money. Exactly. And then I think teams might
22:42
be less reluctant to pursue free agents, too.
22:46
I mean, they won't have the money for that. And
22:49
so there's less incentive, I guess, to even try
22:53
to move on to somewhere else. It's certainly
22:54
a threat to their income. Yeah. But instead of
22:58
being ultra millionaires. You have to sell for
23:02
being a lonely millionaire instead of a big millionaire.
23:10
Again we've talked about some of the pros and
23:11
cons of hard salary cap for Major League Baseball
23:14
but I just want to provide some context here
23:16
because you know that CBA in 1976 that was 50
23:19
years ago virtually. There have been eight more
23:23
collective bargaining agreements reaching MLB
23:25
since then. And the current one was ratified
23:29
in 2022, but after all this time and all those
23:32
CBAs, there's still not a hard salary gap. In
23:35
fact, since that 76 CBA was signed, by my count
23:39
at least, there have been two lockouts and three
23:43
strikes by the players union. That's over 50
23:46
years. I don't know how that compares to other
23:47
types of union negotiations, but It just seems
23:51
like a lot. It hasn't always been smooth sailing.
23:54
Do you guys remember? This is kind of just a
23:56
trivia question Do you remember when the first
23:58
lockout occurred what year? No, I don't it was
24:01
in 1990 Yeah, it was a year before the twins
24:05
won the second World Series. It lasted just 32
24:07
days And the season eventually started with only
24:10
a one week delay, so it wasn't too bad. The second
24:13
one was very recent and I didn't know. I forgot.
24:16
Do you remember when it was? In the early? It
24:22
was 2020. Okay, I was going to say 21, but that
24:26
didn't seem quite right. Yeah, it was two years
24:28
after the COVID season and nobody went to games.
24:31
But in 2022, and it was a 99 -day lockout. The
24:35
key changes from that agreement, they increased
24:38
minimum salaries. There was a pre -arbitration
24:40
bonus pool for top young players. They expanded
24:44
the postseason to 12 teams. The universal designated
24:48
hitter went into effect. So both leagues have
24:50
it then. There's a draft lottery and an international
24:53
draft. But that runs out at the end of the 2026
24:57
season. But that was the second lockout. The
25:03
strikes? are the ones I think I remember more.
25:07
Do you remember the first player strike? Like,
25:10
81 or something like that? Very good. 1981. It
25:13
was the last year the Twins played at Met Stadium.
25:16
It lasted for 50 days. Went from June 12th to
25:19
July 31st. And the strike was over, I think the
25:23
issue was some of a compensation for teams that
25:25
were losing players to free agency. They came
25:27
to an agreement. Ultimately, the players agreed
25:30
to restricting free agency to players with six
25:33
or more years of Major League service. But over
25:37
700 games were canceled. Players forfeited around
25:40
$30 million in salaries. And the owners faced
25:44
about 70 million and lost revenue. Remember they
25:46
had the split seasons? They had like the first
25:49
half and second half. The two little like 40
25:51
-game seasons. Yeah, yeah. So I just remember
25:55
that from that year. And I can't even remember
25:57
who won the World Series that year. Maybe it
25:58
was the Dodgers. But anyway, that was in 1981.
26:02
The second strike occurred in 1985, but it lasted
26:06
for just two days. It was technically a strike,
26:09
but it was August 6th and August 7th of 1985.
26:12
They barely had time to file paperwork. Yeah.
26:17
It was in August that they settled it, but the
26:19
owners agreed to increase pension contributions
26:21
and raise a minimum player salary, and then they
26:24
went back to work. There were 25 canceled games
26:27
that were made up later in the season. But the
26:29
one I wanted to see was the third strike. That
26:31
was the motor of all baseball strikes. The 94
26:33
one, wasn't it? The 94 lasted 232 days. And that,
26:42
again, the salad cap was a big issue. That's
26:44
something they really wanted to do. But the worst
26:48
part about it was there was no World Series.
26:50
It was just so weird. And it happened in August.
26:54
Well, the team that really came out of losing
26:57
all this was Montreal, remember? They were leading
26:59
that National League East. They were going to
27:01
go to their first World Series possible. Royce,
27:03
over the years, has talked about that team. And
27:05
you know what? I don't think they ever recovered
27:07
from that. Was Winfield on there? Don't know
27:10
about that. I knew he played at Toronto. I didn't
27:13
know about Montreal. I don't think he did. But
27:16
the sad thing about that was within not even
27:19
10 years didn't they move to Washington? Montreal,
27:22
they left the Expos. I think within 10 years
27:25
they were gone. But that again lasted 232 days
27:30
and I know there was a lot of people here that
27:32
were bitter about that. I remember guys saying
27:33
then that they were done with Major League Baseball.
27:36
They were going to go watch the Saints or go
27:38
watch American Legion Ball or something. Major
27:40
League Baseball, I'm done. I don't know if it
27:43
stayed or not. Good trivia question. The strike
27:50
ended on April 2nd. 1995, 232 days later, after
27:55
a court injunction forced players and owners
27:57
to negotiate. Do you know who that judge was
27:59
that told them to get their act together and
28:01
get it done? I do not recall it. She's a Supreme
28:05
Court justice now, Sonia Sotomayor. She was the
28:09
judge. Come on boys, get together. Go play ball.
28:14
It was strange. I mean, the games that were lost
28:17
and it was just bad for baseball. Depending how
28:22
hardcore the owners want to be about requiring
28:25
a salary cap. And even after they did settle,
28:29
there still was a salary cap. They still, you
28:31
know, they got it back together. And then the
28:34
other CBAs were handled without strikes or promotion.
28:39
I think it were 97, 2002, 2007, 2012. Okay guys,
28:48
while the players union is opposed to the idea
28:50
of a hard salary cap, hard salary caps certainly
28:53
aren't unique to professional sports leagues.
28:56
I think we just mentioned two of them already,
28:59
or maybe all three. The NFL, they've had theirs
29:01
since 1994, and the NHL adopted a hard cap in
29:06
2005 after there'd been a long lockout there
29:09
as well. And then the WNBA. the women's NBA faction,
29:15
they not only have a salary cap, but they've
29:17
also got the salary floor where teams, there's
29:22
a minimum total salary that teams must spend
29:24
by the end of the season or they face penalties
29:26
for not paying enough. So I don't know. Maybe
29:30
that's something that could work in baseball.
29:34
I don't know. I don't know. Have the poll ads
29:36
indicated any interest one way or the other?
29:39
Good question. I don't think I've even read anything
29:42
by the pole ads since... I have never seen any
29:45
opinion voiced by any member of the twins. I
29:48
don't know if they even like baseball. I just
29:55
don't know. I don't know. It's a strange deal.
29:57
I mean, they saved the twins or give them credit
29:59
40 years ago, but I don't know if they really
30:03
love baseball. Okay, part three. possible alternatives
30:10
to a hard salary cap. For all the talk about
30:12
hard salary cap guys, with the owners basically
30:15
for it and the players against it, what are some
30:18
possible alternatives for Major League Baseball
30:20
that could possibly satisfy both the owners and
30:23
the players? Al, I think you kind of alluded
30:26
to that earlier. Okay, if you're going to have
30:29
a soft salary cap, or a luxury tax, or whatever
30:31
you want to call it, let's have some teeth. Yes.
30:35
I mean, really make it a penalty if you overspend
30:39
or you know, lose draft choices. I was gonna
30:41
say something like that, where you're saying,
30:43
yeah, maybe you don't get your draft, but you
30:45
chose to spend your money on these free agents.
30:47
Yeah. So let's see how you do the next couple
30:49
of years with maybe you don't get a second or
30:52
third round draft pick or something like that.
30:54
There should be something that makes you really
30:56
think long and hard about going over something
30:59
like that. Maybe there could be multiple levels
31:02
to Yeah, you know, have a three level. or to
31:05
your punishment system. Yeah, that's the kind
31:07
of stuff that I was finding too. And the thing
31:09
about the salary floor, I mean, you have to,
31:12
even your lowest paid players have to make a
31:14
certain amount of money because what is it? Is
31:17
it like 550 ,000 or something like that? So I
31:20
mean, I don't think they need, they've got a
31:23
minimum major league salary now, so I don't think
31:25
they're going to need to go to a minimum team
31:27
salary. Every player is making decent money if
31:31
you make it to the big show. Right. Yeah, it's
31:34
going to be interesting to see how this all plays
31:37
out. Worst case scenario, what if the owners
31:44
and players union can't come up with a new collective
31:47
bargaining agreement before the current one expires
31:50
December 2026? And I know that's over a year
31:53
away, but that's going to come up faster than,
31:55
you know, just the way things are. What could
31:58
that mean? I mean what this think it's some possible?
32:01
Worthcase scenarios if there's another say lockout
32:05
You know right now I know the baseball likes
32:08
to say oh numbers are going up and numbers are
32:10
going up But I think among the younger generations
32:12
there is much less interest in baseball Which
32:15
is why they've come up with some of these speed
32:17
up the game changes if you You've got your hardcore
32:21
people in our generation who have season tickets
32:24
who go to games who mean that's like for my family
32:27
That's a major entertainment but a lot of young
32:29
kids couldn't tell you five teams in the National
32:32
League and So if you all of a sudden say we're
32:36
not playing ball well these kids with short attention
32:39
spans Wow, okay fine. We'll go watch basketball.
32:42
We'll watch hockey. We'll we'll do something
32:45
else play soccer Bite your tongue. But that's
32:52
the kind of thing that I'm afraid will happen
32:53
if they have another lockout. And I'm not so
32:57
sure now that if you lose those people, you're
33:00
going to get them back. Right, right. How much
33:03
does baseball depend on boomer age and Gen X
33:07
age for people to support the teams? The younger,
33:10
I don't know. I'm sure the teams have done research
33:12
on that. Yeah. And that's why they pushed the
33:15
chains like the pitch clock to speed up the game.
33:17
I mean, I never had a problem with the time of
33:20
it. It's like I'm there to watch a baseball game
33:22
and everything that goes with it. But I also
33:24
know watching my kids even that they want faster
33:29
paced action that they get in basketball, that
33:31
they get in football and hockey and they want.
33:35
So baseball, I think, was very smart to Add some
33:39
of these changes and like the the base is what
33:41
they did with that base stealing some base stealing
33:44
is exciting And if you take that away from people
33:47
you're you're not helping the sport. You're hurting
33:49
yourself long term Yeah, it might be a year or
33:53
two down the road But I think you're gonna lose
33:55
it and I don't think you'll get it back this
33:57
time Plus you'll see if you were kids playing
34:00
and we've noticed that For example, Shoreview
34:03
baseball used to be one of the biggest, best
34:06
leagues in the state of Minnesota. They sent
34:09
a team to the World Series back when my son was
34:11
playing. And now, year after year after year,
34:16
you see fewer and fewer teams. And now it's basically
34:20
merged with another league. I've noticed that
34:24
too. Well, I think Wayne and I, we've talked
34:26
about this too, like in our old neighborhood
34:27
and that stuff, that park. There were baseball
34:30
games going every day from March till November
34:34
or whatever. And now that park I've driven by,
34:38
you can't even play baseball. There's like a
34:40
light pole or telephone pole in the middle. You
34:43
couldn't even play. I've got the reason for that.
34:45
We used to play ball there all the time. And
34:49
the one neighbor who lived across the street
34:51
right out there in left field. got really tired
34:54
of getting his house hit by balls because we
34:55
have a few people who could really punch the
34:57
ball and he complained to the City Council. So
35:00
it's kind of our fault for playing and being
35:03
too good. But I do, I'm making a general statement
35:06
here, but I just don't think kids play baseball
35:08
like they used to. Unless you've got parents
35:11
going out there and working with them. and playing
35:14
with them and everything. Well, it's organized,
35:16
too, now. There's uniforms. We used to pick up
35:19
games. We'd pick up games all the time. Yeah,
35:22
your generation did, mine did. I mean, that was
35:24
a summer activity. Every day you'd play baseball.
35:27
And now, no, it's video games. Yeah, it's different.
35:32
So I really hope that they don't have to have
35:36
a lockout, but at the same time, I don't know.
35:38
It's hard to tell what it's going to be. It seems
35:40
like the players, they're all about what they
35:42
can get for themselves. No, they're not going
35:44
to want to bend on that. I think they're going
35:46
to have a real hard time finding a way to be
35:48
flexible. They all want their own money. And
35:50
I think a lot of these players hate to say that
35:54
they're greedy and selfish, but... It doesn't
35:56
seem like there's a whole lot of interest in
35:57
building a team to compete and taking a little
35:59
less money to be able to get someone better.
36:01
It seems like it's all about me and mine. It'll
36:04
be the players batting 220 like we were talking
36:07
about earlier that are going to suffer the most.
36:10
The big boys will get their big money and the
36:13
other guys who are professionals won't get paid.
36:20
Well, let's just see. There is a salary cap.
36:24
How would it benefit teams like the Twins, the
36:27
smaller mid -market teams? I think you kind of
36:30
mentioned about competitive balance or maybe
36:33
make it more competitive. I'm trying to look
36:35
for the silver lining in all this. If it does
36:38
come to that, how will it help the game? How
36:41
will it make it more popular to fans? I think
36:44
the game would benefit... by having a team other
36:49
than the Yankees or the Dodgers winning it every
36:51
year? Yeah. If you can throw in a Cincinnati
36:55
or a Texas or Oakland or someone in that Oakland
36:59
after this, but you know, some other like Milwaukee.
37:02
Yeah, Milwaukee. Yeah. If you can throw in a
37:05
team like that, I think that only helps the interest
37:07
of the fans. If everybody is saying, oh, it's
37:10
the Yankees and the Dodgers again. Who cares?
37:13
Yeah, they got great players. But did they build
37:15
the teams? Did they develop the teams or did
37:17
they buy the team like a rich man's toy? Right.
37:20
Right. And I. Want to see some teams get there
37:23
like I was excited when Kansas City made it there
37:25
a few years back Yeah, they built that team up.
37:28
They made one or two key acquisitions see so
37:30
not to say the small teams can't they shouldn't
37:33
they're gonna have to do a selective free agent
37:38
pick up here and there right but if they can
37:40
build up a team get a couple of pickups and most
37:42
importantly have starting pitching They can compete
37:45
and a matter of luck. But if it, if that's the
37:48
case where the Yankees can come in and you're,
37:50
you're negotiating with the guy and then they
37:52
come in and say, we'll add 20 million to your
37:54
contract for that period of time. Well, the player,
37:57
you can't blame them for going. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
38:00
So we'll have to do another podcast in about
38:02
two years. Right. I wanted to get ahead of the
38:09
game kind of this, cause you know, I know 2026
38:12
seems like a long way off, but it's really not.
38:14
It's like how many years they've had pre -agency,
38:17
so. Part four. What do we think will happen?
38:23
Guys, we've done a deep dive into how salary
38:26
structures of Major League Baseball have evolved
38:28
over the years. from the reserve clause era to
38:31
the era of free agency. We've talked about salary
38:33
caps, both hard caps and soft caps. We've talked
38:37
about possible alternatives to hard salary cap
38:39
that both the players and owners can agree on.
38:42
You know, it's funny, baseball, we were talking
38:44
about, you know, they've made some changes. Like
38:46
you talked about, um, the pitch clock that's
38:48
been added, the bigger bases, the use of the
38:51
DH in both leagues now, and then that, um, automatic
38:55
extra inning runner at second base and it goes
38:57
to 10 innings. But I can't help but think, we
39:02
talked about this at the outset, I can't help
39:04
but think about the players that grew up during
39:06
the reserve clause era. You know, what they made
39:08
then and what they could have made today. This
39:10
is just my personal opinion. I'm trying to understand
39:13
why it should be any different from Major League
39:15
Baseball than it is for say the NFL or the NHL
39:19
or even the women's NBA. But you know, it's one
39:22
of those things, it's pretty hard to put toothpaste
39:24
back in the tube once it's out. And I just wonder
39:27
how... how they're going to come to some kind
39:29
of agreement on that. Maybe it's going to have
39:31
to be a hybrid, like you said, maybe it'll just
39:33
be a soft salary cap with more teeth to it, just
39:36
so it doesn't just keep getting carried away
39:37
and every year, who's gonna be the first billion
39:40
dollar player, you know, just got Soto came close.
39:44
Yeah, he did. He did. So two things that I'm
39:47
hoping for one that the lockout if there is gonna
39:49
be one won't last long because I don't want to
39:51
see games canceled. or possibly the entire season.
39:56
And whatever the solution, I hope the Twins get
39:58
new owners soon and become competitive again.
40:02
Maybe a salary cap could do that. I don't know.
40:04
I just hope that something good can come from
40:07
all this. I think it's really sad to realize
40:10
that the Twins attendance this year was the worst
40:13
in 25 years, excluding the COVID year, because
40:17
nobody went to games then. But that's pretty
40:20
sad, because I think Target Field is... I haven't
40:23
been to every ballpark, but it's gotta be one
40:24
of the best in baseball. And to see pictures
40:27
of what looks like maybe a couple thousand people
40:31
in the stands, I mean, that's just sad. I can
40:33
remember when it first opened the excitement
40:35
and that stuff where it was, it was so loud.
40:38
I mean, I remember talking to people that would
40:40
buy standing room tickets in center field just
40:42
so they could be the experience and it hasn't
40:45
been like that for a while and I just, I don't
40:47
know how it's gonna. I haven't seen anybody in
40:49
the stands wearing a bag over their head yet.
40:54
Well that's good, that's good. Al, I want to
40:58
thank you. You actually suggested this topic
41:01
a couple months ago, I think, in a text. That's
41:03
why I thought it was something to really cover
41:04
it. One, it made me do a little more research
41:07
and just try to learn a little bit more about
41:09
salary caps. It's amazing what's involved and
41:15
just to try to make a lead go, you know. It's
41:18
just something that's always been interesting
41:20
to me and maybe it's the legal background or
41:22
whatever, but it's just something that I find
41:24
fascinating and it also Baseball's my favorite
41:28
sport. Yeah, same here. You see the effect that
41:31
all of this has had, both good and bad. Good
41:34
for the players, perhaps bad for a competitive
41:36
balance and all that. It's still very interesting
41:38
to me, so I'm glad we did this. And other leagues
41:42
can do it. I mean, it's done. I mean, they're
41:44
different sports. I know that sometimes it's
41:46
made apples to oranges, but football's done it.
41:48
Hockey's done it. WNBA. It can be done, so it's
41:52
not like it's impossible. I know I was going
41:57
to ask you guys, do you think if we ever got
41:59
to the stage where they agreed to salary cap,
42:02
that that could possibly be the end of the current
42:05
players union as we know it? Because the Empire's
42:07
got a new union about how many years ago it was.
42:11
I mean, it's almost like that's been their biggest
42:14
tool, is to negotiate against the salary cap.
42:18
And if they did, it's like, well, what's the
42:20
purpose of us? Sounds like the union. I think
42:23
personally, if they negotiate a cap, the union
42:27
can come out of it. If they do the right spin
42:29
on things, you know, I think they'll come out
42:32
of it just fine. And they've got intelligent
42:34
people running it. And if they can sell this
42:37
as hey, this is long term for the good of the
42:39
team, you're all going to get X number of dollars,
42:42
none of you are going to be going on food stamps
42:44
anytime soon. And you look at the salaries that
42:47
you're getting, those top salaries aren't going
42:49
away. But if you look at something where you
42:51
got a salary cap, I think you can say we're going
42:54
to be around in 10, 20 years. Not only will you
42:57
players who are coming up be able to continue
42:59
to have a sport to play, but you will also continue.
43:04
You guys who are currently in the league, you'll
43:06
continue to draw a nice salary. So I think the
43:10
way they present it to their rank and file that
43:13
they can. negotiate something like that and have
43:16
it work out well. It sounds like, I was reading
43:20
several places, the Union has been going around
43:23
and having team meetings with all the different
43:25
teams. Oh! The Union? Yeah, really hard -balling
43:30
the fact that they don't want the cap and sort
43:33
of laying the groundwork. No, it can't happen.
43:36
And if that happens, I think long term, that's
43:39
going to hurt. I really think that's the wrong
43:41
attitude to take towards it because shutting
43:44
down baseball, people might just realize one
43:46
day, you know what? There's other sports. We
43:48
don't need baseball. Well, it's not cheap to
43:50
go on it. Oh, that's the other thing. I went
43:53
to a twins game last year with a buddy before
43:56
I even sat down in my seat. You know, I paid
43:58
for parking. I bought a ticket. and got something
44:01
to eat. I think I was out a hundred bucks already.
44:05
It's not cheap to go. I don't think a salary
44:10
cap means a ticket price is going to be like
44:12
five dollars again. That's not going to happen
44:14
either. I guess I would want a reason to want
44:17
to go. I think people will pay if it's worth
44:20
going to see. People spend hundreds of dollars
44:22
for concert tickets. If we're winning, if we're
44:28
competitive. So if you're looking in July, oh,
44:33
well, you know, twins are out of it already.
44:35
They got their 20 games behind behind whatever
44:38
team. It's like we got no shot. Why bother going?
44:41
But if you feel like, you know, the cap, we've
44:44
been able to put a team together. That's competitive.
44:47
I'll still go. Yeah. And yeah, we at the end
44:50
of the day with the increasing salaries. we're
44:53
the ones who are paying those extra increases.
44:56
You look at how prices and tickets have gone
44:57
up and yeah, they've got all their other outside
45:00
revenues and things, but you know, fans pay a
45:03
big chunk of that. So they've got to get it under
45:06
control or they're going to lose the sport. Yeah,
45:09
that's my biggest fear I guess. I'd hate to see
45:11
that happen. Well guys, I'm going to give you
45:16
the last word. I want to know, you kind of heard
45:18
my prediction. Well, what I'm hoping for I'm
45:22
hoping if there's a lockout it won't be a long
45:23
one and I hope the twins get sold I don't want
45:27
to predict. It's gonna be a hard salary cap.
45:29
I think we'd be good if they did but Whether
45:31
it happens. I don't know. I I'll let you guys
45:33
have the lesser What do you think's gonna happen?
45:35
Is it gonna be a lockout? Will there be a strike
45:37
or not a lock a strike? But will there be a lockout?
45:39
I first of all, I don't think there'll be a salary
45:41
cap and I just don't think it's gonna happen.
45:44
You think it's more like a hybrid where they
45:45
just have to... And it may be a real weak one,
45:50
but laying groundwork for the next... These are
45:52
what, four years? I think every four years they
45:54
do, yeah. So we might look at four to eight years
45:57
before you get a strong salary gap. Yeah. Yeah,
46:02
I've got a I guess I agree with that that there's
46:05
no way on earth. They're gonna agree to a hard
46:07
cap anytime soon Yeah, I think what they've got
46:10
to do is set up the market for a To accept a
46:14
soft cap with a little bit more teeth to it And
46:18
maybe two three four contracts down the road.
46:22
You can work something out I just don't see at
46:24
this current stage anything where they'll accept
46:27
anything hard at all. Yeah Well, if you guys
46:36
can agree, maybe the union and the player or
46:38
the owners can agree. So. Well, we know this
46:43
has been great conversation about a topic that
46:45
is important to anyone who cares about the future
46:47
Major League Baseball. I know we all do. So great
46:50
takes from both you guys. Yeah, this is now the
46:53
third podcast that three of us have done together
46:55
and the fifth overall for you, Wayne. But thanks
46:59
again, both of you. Really fun to have you come
47:00
in again. Thanks. Thanks for having us. Yeah,
47:02
you bet. And again, to our listeners, thanks
47:08
for hanging out with me, Bob Edholm, and my guests,
47:11
brothers Wayne and Al Damrow. We hope you join
47:14
us for the next episode of Hanging Out with Bob
47:16
wherever you listen to your podcasts. And until
47:18
then, bye. you