Latest / Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship / #165 - When One Friend Has Kids and the Other Doesn't (Dani Alpert)

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#165 - When One Friend Has Kids and the Other Doesn't (Dani Alpert) · Dear Nina: Conversations About Friendship

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: People can't read your mind.
0:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to speak up.
0:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's my big takeaway from this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If they are true friends, you can say anything to them.
0:10
[SPEAKER_01]: You can say it in any form.
0:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be necessarily articulate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It could be fragmented, but if they are your true friend, they will hear it and they'll take it in.
0:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Dear Nina Conversations about Friendship, I am your host Nina Boutsin.
0:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Today's episode is the perfect side-by-side to last week's episode about how to make and meet fellow mom friends.
0:38
[SPEAKER_00]: As I was recording that episode, I can just hear the voice of listeners and people who respond to episodes and say, but Nina and that everyone has kids.
0:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that I absolutely know that, of course, I know that.
0:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I have the perfect guests to talk about that with us.
0:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Danny Elpert is the best selling author of Hello, who is this Margaret?
0:58
[SPEAKER_00]: A new collection of humorous essays and the memoir The Girlfriend Mom, which was the winner of the 2020 Story Circle Network Guild Award for Comedy, honoring Gilder Redner.
1:09
[SPEAKER_00]: her work has appeared in numerous outlets and she has spent decades working in theater, television, film, performing, writing, directing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: She's also a Pilates instructor and an advocate for the Down Syndrome community.
1:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And she is my guest today because she is child-free by choice.
1:27
[SPEAKER_00]: She's very clear on this.
1:28
[SPEAKER_00]: She feels she always knew that she did not want children.
1:32
[SPEAKER_00]: The way some people
1:33
[SPEAKER_00]: feel they knew they wanted children.
1:35
[SPEAKER_00]: She talks about that a little bit in the episode.
1:38
[SPEAKER_00]: We really talk about these long standing friendships that she has had where everyone else has kids.
1:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean everyone in the world has kids.
1:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean everybody in her crew of friends got married and had kids.
1:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Danny has some very direct and needed advice about
1:55
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you handle that situation, which you could extrapolate to any situation where everybody, quote-unquote, everybody, but the people in your life, are all going through a certain kind of thing or in a certain moment in life.
2:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And you are not, it could be, I've done episodes about being the single friend.
2:12
[SPEAKER_00]: You could also be the only one who's married, the only one who's partnered up and everybody else is single doing a different kind of thing.
2:17
[SPEAKER_00]: When everybody is in one certain kind of lifestyle or stage and you are not, whatever the topic is,
2:25
[SPEAKER_00]: arise if you don't communicate about them because it is something to be discussed and dealt with.
2:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you don't discuss it or at least think about it and how it could affect your friendships, resentment can really grow.
2:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Danny said when she wrote to me about this idea,
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[SPEAKER_00]: through my friendship experiences, listeners will hear lessons and advice that can be applied to any friendship, and I really believe that.
2:48
[SPEAKER_00]: This topic is about kids, but it could be about anything that you can put in the placeholder there of I have X and my friends don't or my friends have X and I don't.
2:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, then what?
2:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get to it with Danny and welcome to Danny Albert.
3:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, happy to be here.
3:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I really am grateful.
3:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I have you today to talk about a topic that I know has been on Listeners Mines.
3:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a Facebook group called Dear Nina the Grouper.
3:14
[SPEAKER_00]: People write either under their own name or write anonymously.
3:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And I also get letters in my inbox anonymously.
3:20
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why it's called Dear Nina.
3:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been doing these topics for 10 years and I would say that constantly
3:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But consistently, I will get a letter of some kind about somebody who has chosen not to have kids and also someone who is not necessarily chosen not to have kids, but they are the only one among their friends who doesn't have kids and we will get into the difference there.
3:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, but either way, their friends have kids, they do not have kids and it.
3:46
[SPEAKER_00]: presents its own challenges and what I loved about your letter to me, discussing an idea for an episode was you have come on to the other side of those challenges and I think you can really help listeners.
3:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's just start at the beginning of your story with these friendships.
3:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I moved to a new school in fifth grade and there's about five of us.
4:05
[SPEAKER_01]: There were five gals in fifth grade and we all just bonded instantly as one does when you're 10.
4:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have remained friends for now 49 years.
4:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be 59 and a year and a half.
4:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know we can have.
4:22
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been through good times, bad times.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But the thing about us was we never, ever, ever.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Not one conversation was about getting married or having kids.
4:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what we were talking about, but it never was around getting married or having kids.
4:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It was careers.
4:40
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just a whole host of other things.
4:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So in our 20s, I think we all got married.
4:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was like, whoa, what are we doing?
4:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a little like, we're all getting married, but we never even wanted to get married.
4:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But we did.
4:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was fine, we excuse ourselves.
4:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's funny.
4:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But one of the friends had kids, like right away.
5:03
[SPEAKER_01]: God married and had her first kid.
5:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, okay, all right, it's weird.
5:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Were you all still living in New York at this time?
5:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, first I had moved to Seattle, and then I moved to LA, where I spent most of my young adult life.
5:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And then one by one, these friends started to have kids, and it wasn't just one.
5:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It was two.
5:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they all have kids.
5:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing on kids.
5:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, what are you doing?
5:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I knew from day one that I never wanted kids.
5:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Just didn't want it.
5:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I like to tell people because people have this kind of weird responses to, what do you mean?
5:41
[SPEAKER_01]: You never want it kids.
5:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like being five seven.
5:45
[SPEAKER_01]: You're five seven.
5:45
[SPEAKER_01]: You really have no choice in the matter.
5:47
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just what you are.
5:48
[SPEAKER_01]: That's your height.
5:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So this was, I don't want kids.
5:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It just started this whole other chapter and phases with myself and my friends.
5:59
[SPEAKER_01]: having them all having kids.
6:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm the odd man out.
6:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you make any new friends with the idea and mind that you were looking for people who don't have kids?
6:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Never.
6:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so hard to find friends and to make friends and to find people that get you and you the same values and prayers.
6:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It was never
6:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not in a position to be that picky, I mean it was like you either bond with someone or you don't, whether they have kids or not.
6:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Now obviously these friends that do have kids, it presented some issues, just kind of natural issues of the time,
6:45
[SPEAKER_01]: that they didn't have for me.
6:47
[SPEAKER_01]: They can't just pick up and leave like I could to go on a road trip or travel or any of those things.
6:54
[SPEAKER_01]: That was tough.
6:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't make friends that just happened to not want kids as well.
7:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so you did.
7:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I was able, but what I'm saying is I wasn't like actively searching for like, yeah, I can't be friends with you barber.
7:08
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got two kids.
7:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, you know, you might have kids.
7:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I don't want to get close to that.
7:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I could see that being tempting like if you already been through that and not wanting to like repeat that same cycle.
7:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
7:19
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good point.
7:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Even with all the challenges, I am really lucky because none of my friends kids shamed me or thrusted their kids upon me.
7:32
[SPEAKER_01]: They hardly ever talked about their kids.
7:35
[SPEAKER_01]: My friends are not your typical, look at pictures of my kids, moms.
7:40
[SPEAKER_01]: No offense to all the moms out there.
7:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a matter of fact, there were so many times where I would be with them, and I would be asking about the kids.
7:48
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't bring them up.
7:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, hey, how's so and so and how is so and so doing?
7:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they're fine.
7:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, never.
7:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think part of it may have been you'd have to ask them was out of respect for my choices.
8:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think they didn't maybe want to make me bring me into this world that I chose not to be a part of.
8:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really know.
8:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually a good question.
8:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I might want to ask them.
8:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's nice, however, I think that you ask them how the kids work.
8:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just thinking about myself by four kids.
8:19
[SPEAKER_00]: If I was very close friends with someone and they never asked about my kids like ever, I would probably be like, hello, that's a huge part of my life.
8:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Whether that person chose to have kids or not, it would be sort of irrelevant to the fact that I have kids.
8:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it would be strange to not ask about them.
8:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel that way also, not about kids, but about I've said this many times in the podcast, I think it's strange if I can spend hours or multiple times out with someone and they never ask about the podcast.
8:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And they only ask about the kids.
8:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It would be like, we are people that ask about your work, about your books that are out to end.
8:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Wouldn't that be just the most frustrating thing of your friends ever asked?
8:57
[SPEAKER_01]: it would be, but it happens all the time.
9:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I think people are very self-involved.
9:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I think because of that and because I love my friends so much and because I don't want to be disrespectful and it's just being a caring human being to ask.
9:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Even though I genuinely maybe didn't care as much as I projected that I care, but of course I asked about how so it's so's doing and what's going on in their lives, because that's a part of my best friends' life.
9:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes no sense for me to ignore their children's existence, but I will say that I remember a lot of times where I hung up the phone thinking, I can't believe they didn't ask me about what I was doing.
9:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, because I'm not going through the high school drama with your kids because I'm not going through the terrible to whatever kids and parents go through, but I have other things going on.
9:54
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just this assumption that those that have kids are way busier than those of us doing whatever else that we do.
10:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about more of those challenges that that's what I want to get into because it wasn't all.
10:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like almost like we skipped over to where there were no issues.
10:10
[SPEAKER_00]: There I'm sure were.
10:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, well, I know we wrote about some.
10:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You were in your 20s.
10:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll go back a good time.
10:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I think doing it chronologically is helpful and people started getting married and having kids and you got married too.
10:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
10:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I got divorced.
10:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember that I never wanted to get married.
10:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You're like, wait a second.
10:26
[SPEAKER_00]: How do that Evan?
10:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember thinking this so
10:32
[SPEAKER_00]: and how long were you married for?
10:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I was married for six years we were together for nine in that time people that is probably when your friends were starting to have kids.
10:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then what were some of the speed bumps other people could learn from who are in this situation?
10:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I said you got to the other side of it but not immediately it wasn't all easy.
10:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me how you manage these friendships and how you're still friends.
10:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can be the queen of resentment and grudge holding.
10:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got a special shell for both of those things in my closet.
11:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I was so resentful.
11:04
[SPEAKER_01]: There's the intellectual side where you know people, they have their kids and you know what's happening over there.
11:10
[SPEAKER_01]: But on the flip side is, where did you go?
11:12
[SPEAKER_01]: We were doing this and that and we were doing this life thing together.
11:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And then all of a sudden, this happens and I'm not a part of that.
11:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, even though I was invited to events and whatnot, I'm not a part of that world.
11:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't speak to it.
11:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't relate to it.
11:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to relate to it.
11:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to speak to it.
11:34
[SPEAKER_01]: the challenge of what do we talk about, the challenge of, so it's going to be need that has to come to you, because you can't leave the house, the resentment that I'm being taken advantage of, that I'm being taken for granted.
11:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Daniel always be there.
11:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Now whether this was going on in their minds,
11:54
[SPEAKER_01]: no idea.
11:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was creating a whole story in my head about, oh, they probably think I'm always available.
12:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have nothing but free time.
12:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm dancing around the house naked because I don't have kids.
12:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like all of these fallacies that people make up about women who don't have kids.
12:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I had to work through all of that.
12:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And what was always in the back of my mind was
12:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But you really, really love this person.
12:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You have so much fun together when it's just the two of you, or there's so much history there.
12:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you going to let this overshadow that?
12:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a duality.
12:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I did have to live for a long time with resenting these people in very different ways.
12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: But then also going, I'm not going to throw that away.
12:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I need them because we were so young when we became friends.
12:50
[SPEAKER_01]: They were so ingrained in my DNA, in my bones that I couldn't imagine.
12:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to be without them.
12:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I had the fun and the laughs.
13:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go out in the women and say, you don't necessarily always get when you get older.
13:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So I waited it out, basically.
13:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It gets out of league some time, right?
13:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But what was funny was as soon as the kids got to, you could talk to them like a person, age, things changed.
13:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I was able to relate to them as me, not a mom, not necessarily a friend either.
13:29
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know, the funny aunt, or... Has it to say kind of like an aunt?
13:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that on common for there to be an aunt, tip of figure who's not actually related?
13:37
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how some of my friends refer to me to their kids, which is lovely.
13:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Once that started happening, I think I was able to tamp down the resentment and those challenges.
13:49
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm honest, it didn't completely go away.
13:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, even into my 30s and
13:56
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of in my 40s too because they were tethered to the home life and their kids and I wasn't.
14:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I have freedom.
14:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted them to be where I was.
14:09
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing you wrote in your email to me, which I really appreciate it was because it's six different women, right?
14:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Or five other women.
14:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And you basically said it wasn't all the same with each person.
14:19
[SPEAKER_00]: You had to in five different ways, because they are five different individuals.
14:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Keep those friendships.
14:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Go right.
14:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Despite the time issues and resentment that might have been growing.
14:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Did any of those five ways include a direct conversation about we've made different choices.
14:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is what it looks like.
14:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't that articulate and not that sounds so nice, right?
14:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds good.
14:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Lovely.
14:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
14:44
[SPEAKER_01]: This conversation took place, and I think my bathroom, when I was living in Los Angeles, and I just said to one of my friends, I said, you can't keep treating me like this.
14:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, it is a two-way street.
14:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you've got all this stuff going on.
14:59
[SPEAKER_01]: As July, I was going through a divorce and who's taking the dog.
15:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, really, you know, really legitimate questions.
15:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, and I said, I'm not gonna just hang around and wait for you and not being treated like, I think I should be treated.
15:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to show up.
15:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is, people think that showing up means
15:22
[SPEAKER_01]: coming over to the house and bringing food or going on a trip, whatever.
15:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking, give me five minutes on the phone just to tell me you're thinking about me.
15:32
[SPEAKER_01]: How are you doing?
15:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Things are crazy.
15:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's catch up in a week.
15:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I was not in any way shape or form looking for a day-to-day.
15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I knew the reality of it, but I needed to know you were thinking about me.
15:47
[SPEAKER_01]: How's Danny doing?
15:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It couldn't just keep coming from me picking up the phone and asking so that was a tough one But you know what she got it.
15:56
[SPEAKER_01]: She said you're right.
15:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I apologize.
15:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel the same way about this friendship that you do Because I just laid it on the line.
16:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't I will not lose you.
16:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I cannot lose you.
16:07
[SPEAKER_01]: She said the same thing and they were tears It was the best thing that could have happened, but the thing that's so funny is
16:14
[SPEAKER_01]: People can't read your mind.
16:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to speak up.
16:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's my big takeaway from this.
16:20
[SPEAKER_01]: If they are true friends, you can say anything to them.
16:25
[SPEAKER_01]: You can say it in any form.
16:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be necessarily articulate.
16:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be fragmented, but if they are your true friend, they will hear it and they'll take it in.
16:35
[SPEAKER_01]: They may not like it.
16:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And they may not have a response in the moment, but you've planted a seed.
16:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And if they're the kind of person that's like, I can't talk to you and then you need to go away for a while and think about it, they will come back because they'll know the value of the friendship, of you and the value of friendship.
16:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And if they don't, well, that speaks volumes too, doesn't it?
16:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, Danny, this is such healthy stuff because people are so afraid of conflict and I'm talking like the little as tiny as saying to a friend is actually a gift that you're giving to a friend to say something like I need you to show up because I want to be friends with you still have you kind of said that directly even if you don't say that second part it's implied you wouldn't bother even bringing something up to a person that you don't care about having a future with.
17:18
[SPEAKER_00]: people really misunderstand that they're scared to say the truth or say how they're feeling that they're gonna scare someone away and then it does just breed resentment over time and then it comes out in some sideways and you do damage the friendship if you don't just.
17:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I've definitely been the person that doesn't say anything.
17:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, oh, that resentment builds and it gets bigger in my closet and it takes over and it's just how be you not know how I'm feeling.
17:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Because people need to be told, you just can't expect somebody to know what's going on in your mind.
17:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And I am so lucky.
17:51
[SPEAKER_01]: My friends are the kind of friends that you just say it.
17:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes I preface it with.
17:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I really don't even know how to say this, so I need you to just sit, express your need.
18:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I just need you to just sit there, let me just spew, let me just say what I'm going to say, and then, you know, we can talk about it, but this best friend that I'm talking about, she knows how hard it is for me to express myself.
18:17
[SPEAKER_01]: She just does.
18:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So she just sits there.
18:20
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, no, go ahead.
18:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm right here.
18:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Say what you need to say and I've told her in the past, I want our friendship to be X, Y and Z. I want the kind of friendship where I can say ugly things, nasty things maybe because you know you're in the heat of the moment and you're not really thinking and you're not going anywhere.
18:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was okay with that because that everybody would be absolutely.
18:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, I know this about her.
18:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I noticed about you grew up together.
18:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I just needed to say and she's like, yeah, me too.
18:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I got it.
18:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But this has all been work of decades telling your friend she's selfish.
18:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, all these not great things.
19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And she goes, yeah, you know, I'm I am.
19:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's everything taking ownership is everything.
19:10
[SPEAKER_01]: to show the defensiveness is what you get.
19:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's been work.
19:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Anything worth anything is work.
19:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate how honest you're being.
19:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you told me it was a lonely time.
19:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's very honest.
19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And can you say more about that?
19:26
[SPEAKER_01]: it was a lonely time because you are losing something.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You're losing a little bit of what we had and now even though they're turning into something else, it's a something else that I can't be a part of.
19:40
[SPEAKER_01]: In that real deep way and then it was also lonely because I started thinking,
19:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait a minute.
19:51
[SPEAKER_01]: What am I missing out on here?
19:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was kind of a lonely moment of did I do this all wrong?
19:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they're right.
19:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and those questions which didn't last long.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's so normal, no matter the topic, it could be, especially career stuff.
20:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, should I take in this road?
20:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, should I put all those years into this thing?
20:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my gosh, now I'm almost 50 and I could have started XYZ and didn't.
20:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even think, yeah, that's common to what is, what a cut of sheta.
20:21
[SPEAKER_01]: What a cut of sheta, the what ifs, all of it.
20:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, honestly, even today, I now live down the road from my best friend.
20:29
[SPEAKER_01]: She has a sophomore in college and a senior at home.
20:33
[SPEAKER_01]: When she tells me that she's got to do this thing for her son and college or they're going out with another couple and whatever, it still gives me a thing because I don't have a family.
20:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And really, only till recently, have I really thought about it in those terms or in that way, maybe it's the age?
20:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
20:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm a little envious of what she has.
21:01
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not to say that I don't regret my choices at all for those of us who have chosen not to have kids.
21:09
[SPEAKER_01]: We can hold both of those things.
21:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope.
21:12
[SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't for me.
21:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, I wonder what that would have been like.
21:16
[SPEAKER_01]: We're so complicated and we're complex human beings.
21:19
[SPEAKER_01]: We can carry all of these contradictory emotions and feelings.
21:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It might not necessarily fit together.
21:27
[SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly true, and so honest, I keep saying to you, because I don't often talk to someone who's so forth right, and I like that a lot.
21:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was holding that at the same time, feeling that bit of envy, but it doesn't mean that you ever cried.
21:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And they aren't true, and this is to your point about the loneliness.
21:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, oh, it's saying like she's married and she has the kids.
21:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, you can be lonely in a crowded room.
21:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's some, I don't know, there's some tangible thing there that she knows her husband is always there.
22:01
[SPEAKER_01]: She knows her son's always coming home at three and so she's got that.
22:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's something nice about that.
22:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would want something equivalent to that, not necessarily a kid.
22:12
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so a lot of lonely times knowing that my friends were doing their thing with their kids and going here and going there and they've built these other communities without me.
22:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, as we wrap up, is there anything else you feel we didn't cover that you think would help listeners who had chosen to be child free, be most successful in their friendships.
22:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I think communication, your friends who have kids, they don't know what you're going through.
22:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Just like you don't know what it's like to raise a child in a practical way.
22:49
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't know how it is for you.
22:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wish I told them a little bit earlier on in the process, like this is really hard for me.
22:58
[SPEAKER_01]: This is really challenging to sit here,
23:02
[SPEAKER_01]: and X, Y, whatever your issue is.
23:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It's lonely, it's challenging.
23:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel taken advantage of.
23:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like you're taking me for granted.
23:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got a life.
23:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I've got other things to do.
23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things, one of the husbands of one of my friends, would make these comments like, I'm completely in-apped at changing a diaper, or babysitting, or whatever, because I don't have kids.
23:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not in-
23:30
[SPEAKER_01]: idiot, you know, I can do it all.
23:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we just need to get honest about the life that a woman that's child free lives and parents live and just talk about it.
23:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a big deal.
23:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I would just say have these talks, have them early if you can, but it's never too late.
23:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And truly, if they are your friend,
23:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it has to be a worthwhile, it just has to feel like it's worthwhile to you.
23:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can't lose these people.
24:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's all negotiate here and let's all compromise.
24:04
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the other thing.
24:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Like not a lot of compromising in the beginning.
24:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I had to do all the compromising.
24:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You would show up.
24:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like they had to be on their schedule at their location.
24:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, canceling plans.
24:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's okay.
24:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to go out anyway.
24:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
24:20
[SPEAKER_01]: plans cancel them to rest ready to go.
24:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just telling them how you're feeling just being honest.
24:28
[SPEAKER_00]: naming the uncomfortable thing.
24:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a very good advice.
24:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And sooner, I love how you said sooner than later, but it's never too late.
24:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a great message.
24:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It's never too late.
24:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You care about these people.
24:39
[SPEAKER_01]: If I didn't care, I wouldn't have thought so much about it.
24:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It wouldn't have made me cry at times.
24:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It wouldn't have made me angry at times.
24:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the relationships that matter to you.
24:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you care about is why you are getting so emotional about them.
24:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I
24:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I have friends that have just disappeared into the background, and I don't really care, not in a mean way, and they have kids, and we just parted and, okay, bye-bye.
25:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So there are those, and I totally get those.
25:08
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's the four ones, or it's the ones.
25:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You gotta weigh it out.
25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't tell every single person that you're upset with them.
25:17
[SPEAKER_00]: The people that is really worth it.
25:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, final question.
25:20
[SPEAKER_00]: That was going to be my fan.
25:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I had one more.
25:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel that these friends you really invested in have been supportive of your writing career?
25:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Are these the people that show up to book events and do what you would have hoped?
25:31
[SPEAKER_01]: This book was published only August 12.
25:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm kind of in the middle of it and I'm just kind
25:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That's pretty good because a lot of writers I just hit an episode a few episodes ago, it's not the case always.
25:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll find fault with several of them.
25:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't get me wrong though.
25:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, but there are a couple that really have showed up beyond those are the ones that I'm like, I'm not losing you.
25:59
[SPEAKER_01]: They're the same friends that are like, we're going to have to work this out because you're staying in my life, whether you know, we like it or not.
26:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's a few where it's like, are you going to let me know you read the book, but even with that you have to sit back and say, you know, one thing I learned many years ago is you never know what's going on in another person's life.
26:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you can, you put the emotion aside and you go to that place of, I don't know what's going on in her life, clearly something and I've reached out
26:31
[SPEAKER_01]: and I didn't get anything back, and that just has to be okay.
26:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to feel good, but you can't run after people necessarily either.
26:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she's telling me something.
26:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I try to be compassionate, and you can't take any of that personally, really.
26:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, especially with the writing stuff, there's so much going on in the world.
26:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, what do you mean you need to read my book, you know?
26:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Like so much, so much content, so I had to learn a long time ago that as well.
26:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
26:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Do your thing because you want to do it.
27:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Do your thing because you have to do it because you're meant to do it because you feel passionately about doing it if you are doing it to get results.
27:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you're going to be so disappointed.
27:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what my book is all about.
27:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But really, I mean, you can't go into any artistic endeavor, I feel, thinking that you're going to get awards and even recognition, and you do it because you have to do it.
27:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Because there's nothing else.
27:27
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, there's nothing else I'm good at.
27:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't even know if I'm good at that.
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I've tried everything, so I just keep trying.
27:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.
27:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Danny, thank you so much for being my guest.
27:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to have your book and all the ways people can find you in the show notes.
27:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
27:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I and every episode by saying I believe you'll agree when our friendships are going while we are happier all around.
27:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So come back next week for another episode.
27:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Listeners, thank you again for being here.
27:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to remind you that if you found this episode helpful or any episode at all, it is so helpful to me.
28:00
[SPEAKER_00]: If you would leave a review on Apple, leave some stars on Spotify and recommend an episode to a friend.
28:07
[SPEAKER_00]: If there's one you particularly enjoyed, send it to a friend and a text or share it on social media.
28:12
[SPEAKER_00]: That is something that helps spread the word about the podcast.
28:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe in the work that I am doing here.
28:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is helping people with their friendships.
28:19
[SPEAKER_00]: The more people are reaches, the better as far as I'm concerned.
28:22
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all for me.
28:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for considering that, and have a wonderful day.
28:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye!