Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host: Lisa Danylchuk, LMFT interviews Jennifer M. Gómez, Ph.D. on Cultural Betrayal Trauma Theory

Transcript

Guest Host: Lisa Danylchuk, LMFT interviews Jennifer M. Gómez, Ph.D. on Cultural Betrayal Trauma Theory · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
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  Speaker 1: Therapist podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
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  Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
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  Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
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  Speaker 1: you in all the while keeping the heart of this
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  Speaker 1: podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy. Very excited to
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  Speaker 1: have as my guest host for this episode, Lisa Daniel Chuck.
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  Speaker 1: Lisa is just so freaking inspiring. A lover loved interviewing
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  Speaker 1: her and really appreciate what she's doing in the field
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  Speaker 1: with yoga and trauma, and it's the reason why I
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  Speaker 1: invited her. She's a license psychotherapist and founder of the
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  Speaker 1: Center for Yoga and Trauma Recovery. A graduate of UCLA
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  Speaker 1: and Harvard University, her work is pioneered the field of
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  Speaker 1: trauma formed yoga and transformed her understanding of embodiment practices
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  Speaker 1: and therapeutic work. She's written three books, most recently Yoga
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  Speaker 1: for Trauma Recovery. She created the Yoga for Trauma Online
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  Speaker 1: training program, the first online training in trauma informed yoga,
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  Speaker 1: and she hosts How We Can Heal podcasts featuring interviews
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  Speaker 1: with leaders in trauma, dissociation in healing. You can listen
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  Speaker 1: to per podcasts and learn more about her at how
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  Speaker 1: we Can Heal dot com. That's how we Can Heal
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  Speaker 1: dot com.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome everyone today. We are so lucky to have doctor
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  Speaker 2: Jennifer Gomez with us. Doctor Gomez is an assistant professor
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  Speaker 2: at Boston University and the author of The Cultural Betrayal
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  Speaker 2: of Black Women and Girls, a Black Feminist Approach to
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  Speaker 2: Healing from Sexual Abuse, published by the American Psychological Association.
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  Speaker 2: She is the creator of cultural betrayal trauma theory and
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  Speaker 2: has so many accolades that I could take an entire
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  Speaker 2: podcast episode going through them, So I'll wrap it there.
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  Speaker 2: Please look into her work. Your website is.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm Jennifer M. Gomez. So the website is jm
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  Speaker 3: go dot org.
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  Speaker 2: Love it, Yes, Jamgomez dot org. And today we're going
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  Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about her theories. Give you
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  Speaker 2: a good introduction to them. So let's dive in. Doctor Gomez,
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  Speaker 2: Can you tell us what cultural betrayal trauma theory is?
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  Speaker 3: Sure, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for
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  Speaker 3: having me. The thrill when we get to connect. So
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  Speaker 3: cultural portrayal trauma theory. It's a black feminist, critical race
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  Speaker 3: and scientific framework for understanding why violence and marginalized communities
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  Speaker 3: is uniquely harmful. And so for today we'll focus on
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  Speaker 3: within the black community. So, when there's violence in the
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  Speaker 3: black community, the general idea then is because of this mean,
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  Speaker 3: yucky racism, some black people develop what I call intracultural trust.
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  Speaker 3: It's just a solidarity with the in group. And so
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  Speaker 3: when violence happens there within the black community are between
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  Speaker 3: black people, then it violates that intracultural trust. And so
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  Speaker 3: then it's this cultural betrayal. So that this within group
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  Speaker 3: violence is this cultural betrayal harm, and then the violence
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  Speaker 3: is called cultural betrayal trauma. And then I propose that
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  Speaker 3: these cultural betrayal traumas, this within group traumas violence. Abuse
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  Speaker 3: is associated with stuff like mental health that were typically
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  Speaker 3: think about, like dissociation or PTSD, as well as cultural
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  Speaker 3: outcomes that we don't always think about, things like internalized prejudice. Yes,
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  Speaker 3: also a branch of if we think of like intracultural
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  Speaker 3: trust as positive of like this solidarity, intracultural pressure is
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  Speaker 3: the negative transformation of intracultural trust, and that intercultural pressure
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  Speaker 3: is essentially like heat problems in house because of this
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  Speaker 3: big mean racism. We don't want to draw negative attention
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  Speaker 3: to ourselves. And so if you're a girl and a
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  Speaker 3: black male has raised you, and do not tell anybody,
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  Speaker 3: because you're going to make all of us look bad
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  Speaker 3: and there could be lethal consequences from police.
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  Speaker 2: For instance, lethal right, Like that's the level that.
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  Speaker 3: You could die.
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  Speaker 2: I so appreciate the depth and the naming of this
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  Speaker 2: that you do. Like I've shared this with you before
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  Speaker 2: that when I first heard the term cultural betrayal trauma,
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  Speaker 2: I assumed it was the larger culture betraying a certain
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  Speaker 2: group of people. And it's more complex than that, It's right,
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  Speaker 2: It's like that's already there, yes, And then there's this
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  Speaker 2: trust that develops like okay, well, hey we're similar, we
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  Speaker 2: share backgrounds, we're sharing this struggle within a certain system,
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  Speaker 2: so we have a sense of connection and trust. And
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  Speaker 2: then when that's broken, oh, like now where do we go?
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  Speaker 2: And when you bring it to the point where yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it's it's not always safe to it's not perceived as
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  Speaker 2: and realistically not safe to like call authorities for help,
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  Speaker 2: well then what right? And I think we can all
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  Speaker 2: just hearing that and thinking about that for ourselves, go oh,
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  Speaker 2: like where do you go? Where do you go at
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  Speaker 2: that point? How how does someone heal when we all
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  Speaker 2: know we heal in relationship and we heal in community,
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  Speaker 2: and so where is where is the community? I'm curious
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  Speaker 2: just a brief follow up question when people are in
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  Speaker 2: that place of where do I go? Have you found
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  Speaker 2: places that they do go? Are there like subgroups within
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  Speaker 2: like groups of people who have also been culturally betrayed
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  Speaker 2: within that group that can then provide support?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, so we talk in the Cultural Portrayal of Black
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  Speaker 3: Women and Girls, I have a chapter on radical healing
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  Speaker 3: in the Black community, and so I have a chapter
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  Speaker 3: on culturally combine trauma therapy as well institutional courage to
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  Speaker 3: change the world, so system level change, but also this
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  Speaker 3: radical healing chapter to kind of answer really start to
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  Speaker 3: answer this question of like if these other formal places
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  Speaker 3: aren't safe, where do we go? And in that chapter
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  Speaker 3: I talk about this is pulling from ABSI, the Association
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  Speaker 3: of Black Psychologists, their emotional emancipation circles that they have.
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  Speaker 3: For instance, when the white police officer murdered Michael Brown,
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  Speaker 3: they went to Ferguson and then held these ecs to
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  Speaker 3: promote healing. And so I've been thinking lately about what
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  Speaker 3: if we had like ec emotional emancipation circle inspired spaces,
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  Speaker 3: maybe within one gender like so for women, or across genders,
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  Speaker 3: and how can we leverage this intercultural trust, this solidarity
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  Speaker 3: in order for good right like not every black person
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  Speaker 3: is violent, and how can we heal together, come back
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  Speaker 3: together after this culture betrayal? Breach also talk a fair
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  Speaker 3: amount about how do we address this stuff in our families?
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  Speaker 3: What is the role of black men who are not abusive,
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  Speaker 3: what is their role in addressing this issue? As well
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  Speaker 3: as what can the individual do because a lot of
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  Speaker 3: times we can try to find safety, including psychological safety,
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  Speaker 3: in other places, but when we ourselves are unsafe within
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  Speaker 3: our own bodies, within our own psychees, that can be
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  Speaker 3: fairly difficult. So also how do we focus on ourselves
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  Speaker 3: and find safety within our within ourselves.
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  Speaker 2: It makes me think of Bethany Brand's work the title
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  Speaker 2: of finding solid Ground, right, finding solid ground within yourself
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  Speaker 2: initially and then from there finding connections that are helpful.
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  Speaker 2: And then I also always always think of this. There
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  Speaker 2: was like an ecological example where there was a lake
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  Speaker 2: that had like a toxic spill in it, and they
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  Speaker 2: put healthy algae in it and that helped it to
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  Speaker 2: like refine a healthy balance. And that's what I'm thinking
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  Speaker 2: when you talk about these smaller groups of safe spaces,
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  Speaker 2: like how do we reintroduce safety into a place where
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  Speaker 2: there's been a lot of harm and there's been a
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  Speaker 2: lack of safety. So there's so much depth to your work,
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  Speaker 2: and I know even we can spend more than an
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  Speaker 2: hour on each chapter of your book. Even one of
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  Speaker 2: the things I love that you share that I always
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  Speaker 2: quote you on, Actually I just did a training this
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  Speaker 2: morning for a colleague in Denmark shouted you out dream storming.
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  Speaker 2: So what is dream storming and why is it important
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  Speaker 2: in this context?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think we can understand dreamstorming by what
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  Speaker 3: it's not. So dream storming is not brainstorming. So brainstorming
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  Speaker 3: is like, we live in this awful, violent, oppressive world,
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  Speaker 3: and so what can we do, Like, let's sit down
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  Speaker 3: and think and brainstorm together on what we can do
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  Speaker 3: to address this crazy violence, equity and equality and so on.
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  Speaker 3: Dream Storming is saying, Okay, I'm going to go ahead
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  Speaker 3: and envision a world that is perfectly equal and perfectly peaceful,
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  Speaker 3: and what is that world like? And then through dream storming,
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  Speaker 3: how do we reverse engineer it back so that we
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  Speaker 3: come closer to that world? And so the difference here
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  Speaker 3: is like if we brainstorm. And I came with the
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  Speaker 3: term dreamstorming in twenty nineteen with colleagues and we were
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  Speaker 3: trying to figure out how to address campus sexual violence,
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  Speaker 3: and every answer we got took us further out of like, well,
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  Speaker 3: you have to address the culture and the context and
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  Speaker 3: the racism and the intersexual oppression, and so it just
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  Speaker 3: became for me impossible of like, well, this will never
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  Speaker 3: end because the problem is steeped within all these layers
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  Speaker 3: of inequality and societal inequality and violence and erasure. And
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  Speaker 3: then it was like, oh, I'm trying to brainstorm solutions
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  Speaker 3: in this world and so I'm getting stuck. So how
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  Speaker 3: do I dream a different dreamstorm a different world? And
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  Speaker 3: then when I think about strategies to get there, the
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  Speaker 3: hope is will move us away from places that might
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  Speaker 3: address the harm now, but that continue this sidus quo
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  Speaker 3: addressing the harm now, like for prevention is like women
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  Speaker 3: walk in groups, so go to the bathroom in pairs
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  Speaker 3: and like put your hand over your drink if you're
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  Speaker 3: at a bar like that may or may not be
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  Speaker 3: helpful to you in this moment for this weekend, but
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  Speaker 3: it certainly is going to continue this at as quo
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  Speaker 3: that as women we should restrict our freedoms and if
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  Speaker 3: you don't restrict our freedoms, then we might get raped.
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  Speaker 3: And that's a consequence. So to the extent that that
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  Speaker 3: is or is not helpful in this state, I do
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  Speaker 3: believe it's further this as quo of inequality, and so
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  Speaker 3: dream storming then would not require that we walk in
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  Speaker 3: pairs or cover our dreams, et cetera, ceterra, al the
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  Speaker 3: things that we've heard. It would be what if there
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  Speaker 3: just wasn't okay to rape anybody, men to women, mental girls,
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  Speaker 3: but also women. You also can't rape anybody either, you know,
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  Speaker 3: if it was just this expansive thing, And then now
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  Speaker 3: what solutions are we coming up with, They're probably going
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  Speaker 3: to look a little bit different and get us closer
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  Speaker 3: to this, hopefully like dream stormed equal world.
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  Speaker 2: I love what you described because it's such a practical
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  Speaker 2: bridge and it flips on its on its head the
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  Speaker 2: way we normally do things which is let's brainstorm solutions. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: that's good, and harm reduction is important and taking the
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  Speaker 2: next little step is something I celebrate. And can we
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  Speaker 2: actually connect with the other side of this, not only
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  Speaker 2: the other side of the problem, but like the fully
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  Speaker 2: healed manifestation And it can even be sort of utopian,
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  Speaker 2: right you're like, fully people there is no rape, and
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  Speaker 2: people are like, oh, blow to mine, But like, can
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  Speaker 2: you and I in this moment agree that, like that
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  Speaker 2: could be possible? Like and can we and can we
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  Speaker 2: reverse engineer? Like there's such a grounded practicality to going
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  Speaker 2: to the solution, going to the dream storm and pulling
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  Speaker 2: information and pulling practice and pulling ideas from there because
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  Speaker 2: it's kind of like, I don't know, there's I'm sure
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  Speaker 2: a million quotes about this of like you can't solve
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  Speaker 2: the problem with the same consciousness that created it. There's
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  Speaker 2: a quote. I'm not sure who who it is, maybe
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  Speaker 2: I'll find it later, but it's that right, like we're
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  Speaker 2: in the same consciousness of the problem when we're trying
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  Speaker 2: to go like we'll put your hand over your drink, like, well,
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  Speaker 2: that's not really liberation, Like that might prevent a roofie
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  Speaker 2: from slipping in hopefully, I don't know, but like term
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  Speaker 2: solution for the many layers that we're talking about, that
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  Speaker 2: as soon as you start unpacking problems like this, people
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  Speaker 2: get overwhelmed. But and it's not a bypass either. It's
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  Speaker 2: not let's just go to la la land and live there.
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  Speaker 2: It's like, here's the gnarly tangled solution, here's the narly
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  Speaker 2: tangled problem, here's the vision, and like let's feed the
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  Speaker 2: present with the vision. So I love it so much
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  Speaker 2: and like I said, just quote you on it all
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  Speaker 2: the time, celebrate it, appreciate it. Thank you so much
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  Speaker 2: for bringing that term to us and your colleagues that
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  Speaker 2: it came together with thanks to them.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'll also say just quickly that there's for myself,
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  Speaker 3: like there's healing in the dreamstorm process, because it's like
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  Speaker 3: to say like, oh, oh, there's a world that could
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  Speaker 3: exist where I would never be raped, I would never
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  Speaker 3: be discriminated against. It's a little bit mind modeling and
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  Speaker 3: blowing and to be like, oh, this is this on
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  Speaker 3: a natural course of affairs that some of us more
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  Speaker 3: likely to be discriminated against and sexually assaulted and raped
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  Speaker 3: than other people, Like all of this. Even though we
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  Speaker 3: know or we can know, this isn't the way it
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  Speaker 3: has to be emotionally, we believe it's the way it
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  Speaker 3: has to be because this is the way it's always
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  Speaker 3: been for as long as we can tell. And dream
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  Speaker 3: storming it's kind of like an act of liberation, of
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  Speaker 3: enacting a difference. And in the cultural betrayal Black women
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  Speaker 3: and girls, I do this with three examples. We go
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  Speaker 3: through with soutional betrayal, terribleness, and situtional courage how to
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  Speaker 3: make it better in the here and now, and then
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  Speaker 3: dream storming if this whole terribleness wasn't an issue, what
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  Speaker 3: would that be like? And what would need to be
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  Speaker 3: in place to have that be true? Like it's a
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  Speaker 3: difficult exercise, but a liberating.
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  Speaker 2: One, A liberating, like you said, a healing one. Like
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  Speaker 2: I think a lot about resourcing. How do we resource
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  Speaker 2: ourselves when there's a trigger, or there's trauma, or there's
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  Speaker 2: something really big that we're processing. Oh, we connect with
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  Speaker 2: you know, something peaceful in our environment, or we recall
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  Speaker 2: a moment of nurturing or things like that, Right, and
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  Speaker 2: we can dream storm to actually like get this little
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  Speaker 2: taste of whoa like how would I stand in that world,
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  Speaker 2: Like what would be different? I can feel it when
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  Speaker 2: you just say it, like I get tingled in my
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  Speaker 2: shoulders and like there's this energy, Like wow, what if?
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  Speaker 2: How would that feel in my body? And I think
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  Speaker 2: when you talk about liberation from these really oppressive structures
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  Speaker 2: that we deal with a ton in the US, they're
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: all throughout the world and they're different conglomerations. But if
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  Speaker 2: we can use our mind and hearts to transcend that
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  Speaker 2: for a moment, we embody it for a moment, our
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  Speaker 2: physiology changes, and that's actually really empowering and really practical
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  Speaker 2: and real. And I know we don't like have in
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  Speaker 2: our I was I was dreamstorming the other day. I
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  Speaker 2: was like, one day our phones are going to have
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  Speaker 2: like a scanner for our energy and for our neurons.
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  Speaker 2: We're going to just like look at the phone and
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  Speaker 2: it's going to be like low serotonin. We don't have
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  Speaker 2: a way to like make it really concrete right now
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  Speaker 2: and see it with a scanner, but we can feel
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  Speaker 2: that physiological difference right Like I could feel it just
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  Speaker 2: now as you were talking about this world where no
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  Speaker 2: one has to be discriminated against or raped, like whoa,
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  Speaker 2: And that's so basic, like we have to go oh man,
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  Speaker 2: just to not be raped, Like is that really our
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  Speaker 2: end all be all? But wow, that would be amazing,
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  Speaker 2: That would be really powerful, And how do we stand
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  Speaker 2: in that world and how does it shift us? I
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  Speaker 2: feel like it does already just thinking and talking about it.
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  Speaker 2: So I feel like there's a lot of power in
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  Speaker 2: not only the practicality, but the connection of dreamstorming, the
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  Speaker 2: connection within ourselves that we really actually shouldn't be treated
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  Speaker 2: this way, Like people really weren't my studies of biology
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  Speaker 2: and anthropology, I don't think we were really wired to
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  Speaker 2: be neglected and abused, like we're wired to connect and
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  Speaker 2: feel healthy connections. So there's something natural about it in
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  Speaker 2: my experience.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it means that there's like a freedom that
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  Speaker 3: we can find in the meantime, So in the meantime
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  Speaker 3: that we're not living in this dream stormed world that
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  Speaker 3: we're imagining and envisioning, like we going to have these
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  Speaker 3: moments of freedom inside ourselves. And in the culture betrayal
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  Speaker 3: of Black women and girls, I talk about like a
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  Speaker 3: free writing exercise where Nikia, a black woman who's been
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  Speaker 3: sexually abused when this culture betrayal business pulls from Nina
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  Speaker 3: Simone and like what is free to you? And does
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  Speaker 3: a free write on it and imagines like this world
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  Speaker 3: where like nothing exists, but like myself and my psyche
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  Speaker 3: and my soul, and like, in this moment, I'm free.
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  Speaker 3: Later on today I will not be free again, you know,
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  Speaker 3: when I go back out there into the world or whatever,
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  Speaker 3: or I deal with the traps of my own my
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: own memories and my own trauma. But in this very moment,
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  Speaker 3: I'm free. And how can I come back to that
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  Speaker 3: moment and continuously come back to that moment? It's a
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  Speaker 3: buck against the power that oppression and violence has over us.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Goot, I love you. It's so good, so good.
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  Speaker 2: How can people practically speaking support the healing of black
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  Speaker 2: women and girls?
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  Speaker 3: So?
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  Speaker 2: I know there's often we we're chewing on these big concepts,
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  Speaker 2: big societal harm done over time, and I know sometimes
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: people are like, well, what do I do now? I
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  Speaker 2: think the dream Storm helps us pull that down. Is
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  Speaker 2: there any thread from the dream Storm that you'd like
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  Speaker 2: to share today of how listeners can support whether they're
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Black women and girls themselves or they're not. How can
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: we invest in this dream storm and bring it to life.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so the root cap of cultural betrayal
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  Speaker 3: and the harmor of culture portrayal is racism in this case,
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  Speaker 3: and then also intersexual impression, so like racism and sexism
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  Speaker 3: and more interlocking. And so then we have to be
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  Speaker 3: tackling those things. So in our efforts in our clinics
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  Speaker 3: to be anti racist, et cetera. From Kim Crenshaw's like
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  Speaker 3: intersectionality frame, it makes me think of political intersectionality and
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  Speaker 3: representational intersectionality. Meaning if in our clinic we have let's say,
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  Speaker 3: like a culturally competent training so we can work with
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  Speaker 3: black people, and then we also have like a violence training,
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  Speaker 3: those things target it for like probably black men and
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: probably white women, and then you have this political intersectionality
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: of black women falling in the void of like the
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: cultural commsy that trainings didn't really get at it, and
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: neither did the violence training actually, And so if you're
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: looking at like an intersectionality frame, a great question is
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: like who is missing? Who is missing not here on
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: our pamphlets for our clinic, for our domestic violence clinic.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Is it white women or is it white women's stories
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: or white women's lenses on what dB looks like. So
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: who is missing to the extent that there are black women,
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: there are their voices up there, Are they the same?
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: Do they have the same or more weight? So like
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: who is missing and who is deamplified can get us
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: closer from like an intersectionality lens. I think the for
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: white people, Hi, white people, I think I'll speak to
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: you directly of the owning the solutions. And so what
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: do I mean? I feel like as a person who's
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: not white, that white people can sort of be trapped
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: of like if you do something, you're overtaking the cause,
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: or you're speaking for black people in a way that's problematic,
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: et cetera. And then if you don't do something, then
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: you're getting your handslapped because you're not doing something. So
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: I think what I would love to see more, and
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: that is very concrete, is to work in collaboration with
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: black women, like actual collaboration and to own the solutions.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: And so something I heard a lot Inceumber twenty twenty
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: was like, Jennifer, are you okay? You know, like the
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: violence guys black people are so high, etcetc. And in
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: my head I'm like, I get it, but Also, why
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: aren't you disturbed? These are your people and your systems
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: who are murdering us in public. We are human just
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: like you, So why aren't you as disturbed by this?
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: Why isn't it your issue than to solve instead of
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: just it's a black person's issue, and you want to
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: support me in this black issue. It's your's issue, and
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: you need to talk to your people and your systems
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: to fix the issue. And I change in that onus
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: and not overtaking the cause, working collaboration, being consultation, being strategic,
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: but not being afraid to speak up with your in
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: group with your powers to change things.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: There's so much connection in that, right, there's the collaboration,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: there's the owning the problem. This is ours, This isn't
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: somebody else's. There isn't This isn't how are you? It's
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: how are we? What do we do about this? It
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: makes me think of I was having a conversation about
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Darvo Deny attack, reverse victim and offender with Jennifer fried.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: I was having a conversation about that recently and someone
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: wrote back and said, yeah, rather than like blaming whose
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: fault is this? I always go, let's get together and
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: go against this problem. Let's problem solve together, let's dream
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: storm together right to bring it there. So I love that.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: I think that's a great place to pause and close.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: And I hope people have had just a taste of
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: your work today and how powerful and how deep it is,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: and how profound and important that is at this moment
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: in time, at all moments in time, right, I think
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: we can. We can use these concepts of healing to
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: make the change that I think a lot of still
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: overwhelmed to try and make oftentimes. So thank you for
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: your work, for your book, I know there's a lot
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: that goes into that, and for just everything you do,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: and for being here today.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Jennifer, Thanks so much for having
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: me