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Women in AI - Nalini Garg · Coffee with Developers

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to another coffee with developers.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm here with Nalini Garg, a person that I met at Claw Camp in San Francisco.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: But without further ado, without actually telling you what she does, how about we invite her on stage and have our coffee with developers with Nalini Garg?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hey Chris, very nice to be here.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing great.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm all right.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh you are VP at Deloitte and you run uh or you're involved with a system called Women in AI.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: What does that do and what does that mean?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: And how is Deloitte part of this?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: I am an associate vice president in Deloitte AI and Data Practice.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so basically I studied AI and data, how to build solutions uh using uh different types of tools that are available in the market and implying like machine learning, data analytics, data governance on top of it, and then basically building it for enterprises.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of women and AI, as I grew up in my career, I have seen that there are a lot of uh blank spaces, a lot of areas where I couldn't see like women in there, especially like as I grow up in the leadership roles.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I started to find like where the community is, where my fellow uh you know women colleagues are, and ended up like uh with the organization Women in AI, and and the vision, mission around this is to bring more female voices out there, helping them grow up in the uh in the ladder, uh in the career, especially when you know uh women bring a lot of um you know perspective holistically, especially around like personal background, how they cater to family as well as workplace at the same time.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then I wanted, I I took that mission to myself and I and I thought, like, you know, why not create a small community in the Bay Area itself, bringing all the female voices out there and see how I can help other people sharing some of my journey and learning from them along the way.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's how it came all together.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: So is it a Bay Area focused thing or is it a worldwide movement now?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: It is actually uh in 150 countries now.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: So this nonprofit was formed like more than 15 years at this point of time, uh founded in Paris by three amazing women.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's it's now, like I said, in 150 countries, we are more than 20,000 people.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And to run such a large big community, it takes a lot.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a village.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just one part of the village, which I am uh trying to do with Bay Area.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: So all the all the events, all the um all the organization from a Bay Area perspective, and especially like California perspective, is under me.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that we want to do in terms of conferences, awards, ceremonies, in terms of like um doing some workshops, collaboration, partnership goes through me.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, AI is a big topic, of course.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: When I started dabbling in uh in the whole world, like 2015, it was all machine learning still.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what I found super exciting at that time when I went from the JavaScript world into the machine learning world is how there was actually a diversity aspect in there already.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Many of the data scientists that I met were women and uh and basically people that came in sideways into the IT market.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't have any coding skills, they didn't have much coding interest, they just were very, very good with data.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that was really exciting to see that there is a new world that actually brings people in that can come in sideways, much like web development used to be when I started my career, that people of all shapes and sizes started there.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you still see that diversity aspect being a big part of AI, or do you see now that it's basically focus and the main money spinner out there, that it's becoming a boys club again?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: I see it in a way where it's it's also it also depends on what life stage you are in.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen like in the earlier uh career stage when you're just fresh out of uh college, you're just graduating, and um, you know, spend five, ten years in in the industry, or not even ten years, like probably five, six years in that industry, there's more diversity.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you get to uh have people from all backgrounds and all genders.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: But as you grow up in the career, I've seen like less and less females, especially going uh into the leadership roles, because I believe it's a demand of you know, whatever the human life cycle is.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they get married, they have kids, they have responsibilities, right?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, some way or the other, most of the women end up taking a career break.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's hard for them to come back to the career, even though, like, how much supporting family is, it's just a mental uh notion.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: It just sometimes the imposter syndrome kicks in.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's it's just hard for them to just come back.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where we need like programs where we could support, we could give them the initial push that is needed for them.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yes, it's it's fine, you just come back.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: There, they're like different projects that you can handle, they're like internal roles that you can handle, right?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: So giving them that push and the opportunities that help them come back to the corporate world and navigate also at the same time, get adjusted to the same time, are gonna help.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do you see this more as a mental block of people themselves?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you also see like that there is an issue that the market already uh favors men over women in this case?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: That basically, like when you when you get when you have children, uh I'm I'm thinking about countries like Sweden, where uh paternity and maternity leave is the same amount of days.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, you you uh uh if somebody has a child, the the husband and the wife, or the wife and the wife, or the husband and the husband, they're both gone.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a wonderful moment because then people don't have that prejudice and say, like, well, that person won't be available.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, that's a that's not the same model in every country and every place, uh, right?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Sweden, I I have friends, some some friends in Sweden, and they definitely enjoy a lot of perks that you know the country and the government provides over there.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I do see that as as the problem is both ways.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Some part of it is definitely mental, and some part of it is also, I believe we have not created those rooms and space for people to just like come and not be judged.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, right.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we do have some work in terms of creating those rooms um in corporate world, inviting and accepting and helping women come back into the career and help them navigate through different situations.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen like my friends who still have the stigma that um one of my friends uh she was um uh she was pregnant and she was also thinking of uh changing jobs at the same time.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: But just the notion of being pregnant and changing job, and she was not happy with the with the previous job, right?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't sit well with her.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: She she had this thing in mind.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: If I change my job and my new employer gets to know that I'm pregnant, they might not even offer me the role that I am like very well deserving, right?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: So there's still people who are uh who are thinking about this, there's still women who are thinking these things before any, like before even like you know, um applying for jobs.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we we there's still definitely like work to do in this space.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's the biggest issue.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of people, a lot of people think like I'm not good enough for jobs, I'm not even gonna apply.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And uh then you are you're already in competition with other people.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I always find it fascinating when you when you talk about salaries between men and women, and people say, like, okay, if somebody is better at uh negotiating during the interview, they should get a better salary.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: But this feels so weird because it feels like supporting the person that's like braggadocious and basically overselling themselves rather than like people that are good for the job.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like I shouldn't have to have a poker game when I'm interviewing for a job.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: I should get hired and get paid according to what I have and according to my peers as well.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: But this discrepancy is still a big thing.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: How can we uh get companies to actually understand that?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And is it is it something that you're trying in your company to do as well?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is definitely one area where I kind of feel like I struggle myself too.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So there are a couple of ways that I can navigate, and there's so much we can control on our sites.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank thanks to California government.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: We do have like, you know, when and when any job description goes um online, there is a salary range which is visible in every job description.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of like every applicant gets to know, but it just I I think the only only few states do that, uh, not everybody, uh, right.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but some of the things that I do um is I do a lot of research on Glassdoor, indeed, and and platforms like that.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Get to know a little bit what the job description is and what is the corresponding salary that people are posting, uh, right?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you're going into the position in um of like negotiating on a salary, keep that reference, keep that range in mind, and um ask for that.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of time, women do not do that, they just accept the first offer that came in because they're in the desperate need of like coming back to corporate world sometimes, right?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Situations are very different.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you don't ask, I've seen it firsthand.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't ask, you don't get it.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I my my humble recommendation to everybody would be uh if you are coming back, if you are um changing jobs and uh you know you have done your homework and you know you are being lowballed, definitely ask for the range that isn't mine.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: On the other side of the house, where corporates are also like there's some work for corporates to do there as well.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: The human resource team has to has has to also think about, like I've seen biases, um firsthand with small companies where they offer less salary for women for the same type of job versus like for men where where they think like men is an asset versus like women is a liability, I believe, right?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's the notion like we we grew up with uh because at the end of the day, man is always gonna be there to you know do extra, go extra hours, go extra miles, spend more time in the office and not have to take care of like much about family and all.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's changing a lot over the decade, last last decade has changed a lot, but that has been the notion we grew up with, right?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Versus women, it's it's it's always like enough even like cultural things comes into picture where they were not given the opportunities to like even go to higher educations and things like that, because at the end of the day, you're just gonna get married and go away, right?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why then liability thing comes in, right?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there's still like we're coming out of that notion of liability and and see like, okay, at some point of time you are eventually going to cater to your family, so maybe you might be okay with like less salary, right?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you only want to work for a couple of years and then sit at home.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a lot of like prejudice and biases like that, that a lot of like companies are navigating these days, uh, right.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um and that, but there's still more work to do.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, from um what I have seen at Deloitte, like we have we I I I personally try to like mentor a lot of women in there as they are growing up in their career, making sure like doing regular check-ins and see how you you are doing uh in terms of like navigating your career, in terms of like what your career aspirations are, where do you where you think you should take a break, where you think like you're exhausted, right?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do going into that well-being and just emotional um emotional boundary itself uh sometimes helps these women uh to figure out okay, this is my time to like take a little break from the work, um, and this is my time to like you know go and uh go heavy into like creating the professional brand that I'm planning to create.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, these these biases are a bad idea, but uh it also feels outdated when you see retention.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like most people don't stay in the company and die in the company.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, uh, I mean, at Microsoft, when I hired people one year later, they were normally gone because somebody else offered them more money.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So even that saying, like, okay, I get this, I get this man that actually works extra hours, which they shouldn't, and I get instead of a woman and these kind of things.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that is even not a reality, though.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what frustrated me lately, though, uh, in the last few years, um, is the whole movement of the world going away into a more traditional view of men and women again.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that includes like women should stay at home and watch the children and cook and men go to work.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that feels like such a step back of about a hundred years.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh it seems like a question that is going that is going out there that people start to believe.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, what can we do as as people like me, like as allies in that cause?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would say uh sometimes it feels like it just taking us like so many years back, uh, and and the progress that we have made in in the last hundred years or so, uh, the things that we have sacrificed, the women voices and the male voices that have spoken into or you know, bringing us forward is all going to go waste, right?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: It just feels sometimes word feels so depressing, but at the same time, I try to look at um you know the class half full rather than half empty.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I feel like I have a story to tell, I have a place, I have a voice, and there's a reason why I am in the world.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna do my job to bring that voice out and help 10 other women bring their voices out, um, you know, um, and then uh create those space for them so that those 10 can replicate other 10 and and continue doing the momentum that has started like long, long time back rather than uh taking you know um a step back from it.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I see it.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sometimes it may feel like you're taking two steps forward and one step back, but that's okay, that's life, right?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: As long as you're continuing to make for make momentum, continue to move forward, I think we'll still will leave the world a better place in my mind.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you see yourself?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh where do you see opportunities for people to educate themselves to get into the market?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: If I want to be a woman of AI or a person of AI, uh, where do you see is the best way to get uh get the right information that would make you stand out in an application?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many ways these days.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, education is no more confined into the you know the four walls of the classroom or or just books.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of things that are out there.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, YouTube, um, and any edutech site, they're offering a lot of free courses.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Google, AWS are also offering free courses.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's has been my go-to.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like a couple of years ago, I started going through all of the courses with uh the corporate companies are producing because at the end of the day they they know their product better, right?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: They also have to sell, so they they wanted to make sure that people who are actually using their product have good knowledge around it.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's one.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Second is lately I've seen a lot of hackathons and labs and workshops happening, especially like when you are in Bay Area, right?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: That is your first hand um experience to just go in and build something out of it without any judgment, right?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: You have mentors available in these hackathons and workshops, go ask questions, use the platform, use the free credits given to you, right?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's your that's your MO.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: You basically go and just build something for free and learn something for free without uh being uh you know being asked to like submit or uh or being judged into like you know in into a corner that you don't know how to build, right?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: You can always ask for help.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And third thing I would say is finding the people who you gel with during these events and workshop and follow on and see like how they are navigating this space, be in touch with them, create a community because ultimately you might get stuck here and there, uh, you might some need uh you might need some advice here and there.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: The community is gonna help you, uh, you know, giving you perspective and helping you like navigate that situation.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the three ways I would suggest anybody who's starting their career and navigating a different workplace.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as somebody hiring, I always found it fascinating when you get CVs that are like eight pages and people tell their life story in them.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, do you have any advice or do you do you offer also uh a support in people applying for jobs and how to get uh sorted?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And what are your biggest tips there to basically make people not waste the time of people like me who are hiring?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And lately I'm getting that a lot.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I would suggest the hiring has changed um a lot, right?
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Since last uh five, six years.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Used to be like old school, you put your resume and somebody human um on the other side is gonna read through your resume and then filter you out into the next stage.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that has changed itself.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um nowadays you create the resume with uh with AI and you post the resume against the jobs through AI.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh it's the AI on the other side who's also filtering the resume, right?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: So the whole cycle itself uh has expedited uh using the AI agents and whatnot.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Even from our side, like I have built my um with for my clients like AI agents who help them in resume writing job postings and uh filtering resumes that is coming their way.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh right.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think something that is gonna give you an edge in in the a in the era where everything is being automated and everything has like agents behind the scenes is the personal touch.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh once you have the resume, which is don't do the do do the eight-page resume, do it like you know, uh more sophisticated two-page resume or one-page resume if that's possible, right?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes people have more things to do, that's okay, but that's that make you make it an eight-page resume.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Try to consolidate the points in the in the in the direction of what you have done, what was the impact, and how it solved a certain problem.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, right.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so when you concise that in your sentences in a way, it's very easier for somebody to understand the impact that your work has done.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then once that is done, LinkedIn is a great resource.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, go ahead and find the hiring manager or somebody in that company who you can connect with and ask their help for references.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Second, if you are able to find the hiring manager and the email, send them a personal note that I've submitted my resume and I would really like to be considered for this job.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And these are the points, like give two or three bullet points so that they have in the back of their mind that okay, this might be the ideal candidate uh right for this particular job, and they don't have to like go through your resume uh or find your resume in in the stack of hundred that they may have, right?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the tips I would suggest.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um definitely try those out, and the world is evolving.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: So hopefully more ideas will come into picture as the hiring process evolves.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're very much uh very much on point there.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: The personal touch is a very, very important bit.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's why events are so big as well, like as you said, hackathons, but also uh, I mean, we have our Congress coming up now on the 23rd in uh in San Jose.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if you get a chance to go to these events, just don't go there and just uh talk, uh look at the talks.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean you can, but it's of course it makes speakers like me happy if people are in the audience.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, you can watch all of those recorded later on as well.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually much more important to talk to people and to go from booth to booth and look at companies.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, most of the time when the company and the Congress or the conference is a well-organized conference, they don't have salespeople on the booth, but they have real engineers and real people working in these companies.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: These are not the hiring people, but these are the people that you can learn from.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: The personal touch at events is something that I think is very important to get to know companies and get to know the people there.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and the other thing that I always say, I always was part of my success is that uh don't feel actually that you need to own something to companies.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like if it's a big company, it's still interesting to talk to people because they also have people in there, they don't have only like perfect developers and great people.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's a good opportunity to network and just stay out there.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you have to have uh uh sometimes jump over your own shadow if you're not an extrovert person.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: What uh on the other hand, I found that especially in data science, a lot of introverts are incredibly thorough people and wonderful workers to have with you.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: What would be your tip for an introverted person to actually uh try to get all these like sound scary sounding situations and to navigate them?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're reminding me of a story of one of my friends who actually was looking for a job and was going through the job description and found out that one of the bullets did not fit well in her resume, uh, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't have that experience.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: And she came to me, she was like, you know, I don't think I'm fit for the job.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: Out of the 10 things, I'm only I'm only like covering nine.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what are you talking about?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're covering nine, you're already good at like for more than 50% of the people, right?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes what we do is we shut us down, ourselves down, uh some much and uh not uh you know think again like from an angle of like I have to I have I have to be like so good at like you know the job description says 10 bullets I have to be so good at like you know covering all 10 bullets rather than like you know applying and that imposter syndrome I was talking about earlier kicks in rather than applying we just like shut ourselves down.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Especially like you know people who do not go and discuss like introverts right they do don't go and discuss they they have uh they make uh these these bars these bridges these walls um just for uh themselves rather than like you know going talking to a friend and asking them like okay can you just like have help me go through my resume make sure like you know um it's it's it's good it's uh and this is a job description I'm applying for do you think it it matches right so just go and ask for that help uh because sometimes we shut ourselves down especially like when we are so deep into our head and and focusing on technical work right uh and we don't we we need some some sort of a support uh going out of the way and um you know making sure that the job that is that we are applying for is basically helping us out.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I remember every job description I've ever written when after it went through HR came out with eight different more bullet points that I actually expected from the person I wanted to hire.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: So not covering one of them is actually not really an issue because job descriptions and what the job really is later on are two different kinds of things in every company that I worked in so far.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely like you are trying like when like I said right I've created so many softwares for clients where they they have automated the whole process and I know when they write the job descriptions we're looking for a unicorn it doesn't exist right so most of the time the companies are just looking for a candidate candidate which is extremely extremely rare and you're not gonna get it right so it's it's it's for the candidate it's up to the candidate how they want to put position themselves against the things and sometimes your resume might not be a perfect fit but you have stories that makes you a perfect candidate for that certain job.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Learning on the job is a very important thing like I found that far too many people when you interview them don't ask for what the uh what the career ladder is like in the company and what the support for internal training is like.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen that as well that people don't see that this is something that you should request as an employer as an employee.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen that too um so especially when you are early in your uh career journey I think you're kind of like scared afraid to ask uh that I need help uh right I was that person myself like um I remember I was staffed on a project um and there was one certain tool I was not really well versed with um right and um I went to YouTube and this I'm talking like 15 years back right so I went to YouTube um looking for what are the how how to navigate this tool how to how to work on a certain uh you know certain tool um of similar sorts and there were not that not many material the company was like just new they were publishing some training material here and there right some of it was paid um some of it um people whoever has tried it before has put some YouTube videos but it was not very helpful and I was thinking in my head can I ask my employer to like pay for this training uh right and help me which was which is eventually going to help me on the project and I was like why do I have to think it twice like I I I question myself that thinking right so sometimes it's just that thing uh like when you're uh early in your uh career journey journey and especially like women I feel I it may be like a women thing as well right we're more shy than asking for something because for some reason we we think like it's a privilege that we are getting a job rather than like it's it's it's something that I deserve right so sometimes that thought process comes in and then I question myself again and I ask for my employer like you know hey I you stopped me on this project I know XYZ but I there's one thing that I'm not really sure about can I take this additional training and would you be okay uh you know expensing my training on this and they said yes so it's it's a it's a combination of a few things like asking for help making sure that you don't feel like you will be judged if you are going to ask for the training right and then do not uh think uh otherwise that you'll be shot down that you'll you'll be like you'll be asked uh or you'll be judged against you know your your colleagues in this um in your performance reviews or something like that right ask for that make sure uh what you need um you're getting it from the employer uh to make yourself successful in the job I always found it an interesting thing to uh uh in uh people that are hired as well like when they asked for these things it showed me that they had an interest to do to stay in the company for longer and to actually get something from the company rather than just like oh I just want my money and then then I'm gone again.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it felt like the uh Microsoft was hilarious because all the projects that they gave you all the benefits were like long running things like private pension plans for like 40 years or 20 years and you're like who's staying for 20 years in a company nowadays but uh these things are in there and they're a perk and somebody fought for these things so basically it makes sense to actually ask for them as well and it also shows a bit of humbleness in the person as well like not just saying like oh I know this I don't need to learn anything like I mean I want people to continuously learn.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Having just been in the Silicon Valley and asking and being at several meetups and telling people about our event uh so many people came up to me and actually started telling me that they're a founder and a builder they have no idea how to actually build the software that they want to have but they use AI to do it and they actually start a company around a product that is halfway done.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: That actually took a lot of like I'm just fascinated because I as a technical person I couldn't do it if I don't trust the code that I've done and that might be because I'm old school in this but do you see that there's a lot of like uh founder thinking in like women in tech as well and women in AI or do you see more it's like the tech bros showing off and uh and flooding the VCs with applications?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's I would say the people I have met so far uh with women in AI, they all have amazing ideas.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the women that are part of the community today are actually founders themselves.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And somehow I I I like their ideas so much more because they are not coming from a technical angle.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: They're not coming from like there was a problem technical problem and I I was trying to solve they their ideas are more life related like I'm helping my mother doing something and she does a chore and I want to automate that chore right I'm helping my kids um in certain things I'm helping myself increasing productivity right so their ideas are more more life related more more relatable in that context a lot of the women founders that I have met uh through women in I are also doing a lot of work around mental well-being and that's absolutely crucial these days like with lot of AI things coming our way and people end up spending more time at work than at home uh we have seen the world or we're slowly going towards the world like it or not where technical things and your your gadgets are overpowering the human connections you don't have enough time to spend with your friends and your family right and ultimately making us more lonely along the way right so I've seen firsthand uh some friends going through dark times uh right going through like craving for that human connection and ultimately all of this is uh resulting into like a lot of uh stress anxiety depressions and whatnot right so a lot of female founders are actually working in that capacity to see like how can we build something that is going to overall improve the health of human yeah health of human especially women what communities can we build what areas can we free up how can we help each other right what patterns models that we can derive out of it so that we can help the women of the future uh it just feels so weird that we that we have this world where people uh strive for um artificial intelligence but we forget about emotional intelligence and actually making the products there I also find that a lot of products that people build with AI right now even don't go through any UI process or UX process.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no user testing there's no uh there's no guess it's like I mean I can make Claude rewrite the thing in the next three minutes if the users don't know how to use it.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: But it feels so weird that decades of like empathy with the end user and answering the unanswered questions with our tools seems to be uh thrown out the window right now for fast moving.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is this something you find as well?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's interesting it's it's really funny like people who are saying empathy is the last thing also talk about in their vision and mission customer is the first thing that we should be careing about selling the product.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's really funny to me right uh but um I I guess at the end of the day I would I would rest my code with this um we're humans and if you are if you don't know empathy if you don't know if you don't have emotional intelligence you're not human anymore uh right um I would like to be I would like to continue being human and and continue working in the capacity that there is there's a life given to us and I I just have to find a meaningful purpose with it while I bring my fellow human uh together and and leave something for the world which is which is better and not just robots uh not having any any emotional intelligence at all.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: So where do you see this going?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh a lot of people are now thinking um I'm a big proponent of open source I always love that because basically whatever I do is share with the world I can get run over by bus tomorrow and my my work will live on and also it was a great opportunity for people to get started in our in our community by contributing to open source and I hired a lot of people that were part of the community then began to become engineers in the companies that I worked in.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now with open uh with AI this seems to be going away of course there's open weights and stuff like that but a lot of the things that you see that are successful are all in like uh in like stealth mode for a month and close technology and don't open up to the world do you think this is uh this is something we need to fight for or is this something that just comes with the territory when there's so much money being thrown around I myself as a proponent of open source as well um just because I feel like all of this notion started with uh with open source right openAI was open source at some point of time and was meant to do uh meant to serve humanity and I think uh along the way we have lost that vision um right um I I see like you said like tomorrow if I run over by a bus like you know I I want to make sure like the things that I've created still continue serving um so I myself as a proponent uh of like building something which is more open has the potential to grow um eventually by different minds touching by different minds versus like consolidating the uh whatever the technology the latest and the greatest the next generation within the within the confines of like certain corporates because then the purpose of the technology is not surveying humans anymore it's just to make money and I don't know how much money we want right eventually to go into the corporate world um and just benefiting a few people versus like humanity itself.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: So my suggestions and ideas and and fight for this is always going to be bring whatever the technology we are bringing out of the market it should be in the direction of helping humans making their lives better.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: There is a conc uh there is a concern as well for me like I I love that I can start development and without spending money all I needed was a computer a text editor and that was it.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now if you see people saying like oh I used have to use agentic coding I have to use AI and that means a$200 subscription a month to just get started.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: So this is kind of a gatekeeping thing that is happening right now.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's mostly because people think they have to be as productive as people using these tools but I don't see the productivity gain as much as we actually advertise it.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually one of the biggest questions being asked everywhere uh even like uh companies like Deloitte right uh we have access to all the latest and greatest models and uh uh you know chat interfaces to to do our work um every time when I think about using ChatGPT or Claude um to help me with my work there's a bigger question that I ask um and also my teams as well like where is the critical thinking when you're using ChatGPT and Claude in terms of uh you know giving you ideas and creating the whole uh script or SOWs or proposal process like where is the critical thinking human critical thinking coming here um I always suggest people and and my team members as well start with the idea of writing what you have in your mind first uh right rather than just asking Claude can you give me something like this?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um so a lot of the time I have seen people are people tend to do this I think it may be because they want to save time they think like this is productivity gain when I just ask when something is asked by my boss let me just like Claude it or chat GPD it right versus while you're trying to do that while you're trying to gain productivity you're also outsourcing your thinking process to these models and that's not what we want to do.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: We still want to have there's a reason why we hired you right because you have something in in you something in your mind something in your in in your in your experiences with with the with the physical world that we want to bring out on the paper and do not outsource that critical thinking to these models um that's my go-do advice for people who are thinking um you know using these tools um for productivity gains yes great do you can do that but do not outsource your critical thinking now as a closing thought because we're kind of uh uh in on time here um what would you think is a uh is a good is something that people should stop doing to stop them from having a career in AI like what is the biggest barrier to entry that you find that when you coach people and mentor people that they have to overcome to actually be successful?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah absolutely I think first thing is definitely do not get um overwhelmed by the technology uh itself there's so much happening um in in the technology it's evolving very fast very rapidly and sometimes it might feel like there's a lot going on and I cannot keep up uh it's okay everybody's in the same boat uh so do not feel shy of learning new things do not feel shy of asking questions do not feel shy of help um everybody's on the same boat once again right so uh it's not just you um and as long as you continue making progress even whatever smaller it might look like that's okay um eventually uh there's a saying right that five minutes a day still makes you so much better in a year versus not doing anything at all uh so keep doing that those spending those five minutes every day in learning new things learning new technologies and uh reading what's up uh in in the market and that will still be making or bringing you forward than a lot of people are what's one thing that you encountered lately that gave you a lot of hope that actually made uh made you really happy about the situation that you're in with women in AI was there something a success story was there something that was changed in the company policy what was the thing that gave you a boost I think uh we tend to as human we tend to always look at uh you know or we feel the the the bad stories and the bad experiences more than the good ones I think there's some research that has happened we tend to remember the bad experiences more because our brain tries to like make sure that this doesn't happen again it's saving you in some form.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: But there are also like good things that happen right there are people who are uh allies of women uh who help you get further ahead in your career and I happen to be the person who is blessed by mentors male mentors and colleagues like that uh who keep sending opportunities my ways like I have partners in the firm who believe in me and always look out for me um in in like giving me more opportunities in terms of praising my work in terms of asking me to go and present uh in in different forums right um so always uh that gives me hope that uh you know humanities has not done that yet there are people who are always going to be supporters and there are people who are always going to be like you know judging you for something and especially with women in AI like whenever I go out and talk to people out there I always find people wanting to connect um so there is an urge in in within people itself to to find the community right that itself gives me hope like imagine a day where I go out in a you know addressing hundred people and nobody comes back and says I want to be part of this or I right or what are you been doing this is useless right that has not happened yet so there are a lot of people who come and still talk to you that itself is is giving me hope.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well I'm looking forward to seeing you in San Jose as well I guess you have a chance to come around and please share the opportunities with your community uh this was so insightful they're gonna be editing this there's gonna be lots of shorts that people can see from you now if people want to get in touch with you to get uh mentorship to get help like how do you how did you do that?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely the two ways uh you can email me at nalini at womeninai.co and you can always direct message me on LinkedIn I always fly back on LinkedIn.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wow that's quite an offer like seeing that how many people you have on LinkedIn that's quite impressive.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well thanks very much this was wonderful uh I hope you have a wonderful day ahead um I'm gonna be signing off now and do my mental health thing and not do anything with computers of the evening and um it was great having you any last words you have for people out there um I'm I'm very thankful to you Chris uh so thank you so much for giving me this opportunity and um I'm out there in the community um if you have anything and I to discuss uh around women in tech women in ai um your career well being just I'm I'm just just a call away so feel free to reach out thank you thank you very much see you soon bye