Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #49: Interview with Larry L. Lewis, Jr., Senior Lead Technologist, Booz Allen Hamilton

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #49: Interview with Larry L. Lewis, Jr., Senior Lead Technologist, Booz Allen Hamilton · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:13
Podcast Commentator: Greetings.
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Podcast Comentator: Donna J Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her biweekly
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podcast, Remarkable World Commentary here.
0:25
Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts, insights,
0:28
perspectives, and more with her listeners.
0:31
Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
0:35
especially kids with disabilities.
0:38
Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
0:42
dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
0:49
She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
0:53
skills, and expertise in access technology and information as someone who has been
0:59
internationally recognized for her work and roles,
1:02
she just wants to make things better than possible.
1:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
1:15
I am Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
1:23
through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
1:29
I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
1:34
author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments.
1:44
In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian
1:53
government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
1:58
not just to sighted ones.
2:01
And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
2:09
disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
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And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was greatly humbled by Her Late
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Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or pottery studio,
2:39
you will find me coaching kids with vision loss,
2:43
producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
2:49
gadgets talk back in plain language.
2:54
Everything I do circles.
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One goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into everyday practice.
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I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where policy meets lived
3:13
experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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let me shine a spotlight on today's guest, a change maker whose work is every as bit
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remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
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Larry Lewis, I'd like to welcome you to the Remarkable World Commentary podcast.
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Larry is a longtime friend, mentor, and advisor,
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and we have traveled many roads over the years.
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Larry, I'd love to take listeners back to when we first met at CSUN or CSUN in
4:03
1998. What did that conference mean for your career at the time,
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and how did that networking there set the stage for the path that you have traveled
4:17
since?
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Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, thanks, Donna, it's a great question. And firstly,
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I want to thank you for the opportunity to be on Remarkable World,
4:24
and I want to say hello to everybody who's listening.
4:28
When I went to that conference a long time ago,
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27 years ago, I was actually shifting out of a job with a nonprofit center who serves
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persons who are visually impaired.
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And it was in a in a tech role and assistive technology role,
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and was shifting into my first taste of of for profit working for humanware.
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So it was important for me.
5:00
I was sort of finishing up that job while at the same time joining Humanware sort of sort
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of together. And it was necessary because up until then,
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I hadn't had a lot of networking outside of the state of Ohio in the United States.
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And so it was a bit overwhelming.
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It's kind of like just learning how to, as we say in the United States,
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dog paddle, which isn't really swimming.
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We just kind of paddle around and being thrown into an Olympic sized pool you know,
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with you know, where you're sharing lanes and you're not trying to run into people but
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you're just trying to keep your head above water and,
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and and move forward and kind of take it all in so that I look at it as dog paddling in,
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in a little, little secluded lake, jumping into an Olympic sized pool if we want
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to use swimming as an analogy.
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And so I joined Humanware prior to the Braille note days.
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It's one of the reasons they brought me on was to bring Braille note to market.
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And so I was just sort of in fire hydrant mode,
6:05
taking in everything, just getting acclimated to wow,
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there's a lot going on outside of the state of Ohio meeting all these different vendors,
6:14
meeting, meeting professionals like yourself and just getting acclimated to all these
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people to where I just.
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I can remember the final evening of the conference,
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and I think I stupidly decided to take a redeye home to get home.
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And I just was just exhausted because not and I'm pretty high energy person,
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but it was just taking in so many different people and so many different vendors and so
6:39
much technology. And things were quite a bit different back then.
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I mean, the internet was just sort of beginning to blossom.
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We were we were in the late nineties.com boom in the US.
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So there was a lot going on with just all these companies that were developing for the
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internet and networking and hardware and screen readers were trying to move from DOS
7:04
to windows still. And, you know, this was like this.
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The talk about it now, it's like, wow, man, so much has changed.
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I mean, the equipment that that we had to carry back then I,
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I jokingly tell people I got into weightlifting because I wanted to sell
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adaptive technology.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. You know, I should mention to listeners,
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you know, with you and I having met at CSUN in 1998,
7:32
was the beginning of a very, very wonderful relationship where you have
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become not just my friend, but my mentor, my advisor.
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Hey, you taught me how to use the I devices.
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Remember those days.
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Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I do and that that was probably 2010 ish, 11 ish when we I wanted to take a couple
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years to see if Apple was serious about sticking with this,
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because in the 1980s, Apple, with a lot of younger folks don't
8:01
realize is Apple used to have a real assistive technology push in the 80s with the
8:07
Braille, with the with the Apple two and the Apple two.
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E there is an old product called Braille Edit back in the 80s.
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And then when Microsoft came on, they just ditched accessibility.
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So for those of us who were burned by Apple once,
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there's a lot of us who were like they've got this iPhone now,
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are they going to stick with it?
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Are they going to make it? And so I think it was about 2010,
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2011, after about 3 or 4 years of updates, I was like,
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yeah, they're they're in it for the long haul.
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And that's when I became a little bit more involved in the mobile side of the house,
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both from an At training but then also dealing with,
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you know, accessible apps and those sorts of things.
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So yeah, I remember we spent spent a fair amount of time just working through it.
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And you were you were you were a very good learner.
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And that when, when you figured that when you figured it out,
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it stuck with you. And then we just built onto it from there.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I'm very, very appreciative of this.
9:07
Thank you very much. Yeah.
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So you hold degrees in both English literature and a blind rehabilitation.
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How have those disciplines blended to influence the way you write?
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Technical guides, teach professionals and sell the accessibility story.
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Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I began with English because I wasn't, as I jokingly say,
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didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up.
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And so I knew, I knew I could take an English degree.
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It would be versatile.
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Kind of almost like a marketing or communications degree.
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But I've always loved to read. But what I learned,
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what I learned with English is the importance of both verbal and written communication,
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as you mentioned. When I finished my master's in English,
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I was like, you know, I really don't want to spend my life in a
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classroom just teaching literature, although it would be fun to some degree.
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And I was at I was at Northern Illinois University for my English graduate work.
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And this sort of noticed that they had this program designed in their special education
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curriculum to work with a, with a variety of different types of
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individuals who are, who are blind.
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I focus more on adults, although I did my practicum with the Chicago
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Public School system as part of my degree because I've also liked like working with
10:44
youth as well. And I wanted to figure out a way to make lives better.
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And I felt like I could do that more by parlaying what I had.
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I knew I could take the skills that that came with the English degree,
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and I could make them work to solve problems.
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And so and so there are a number of different problems that I saw with,
11:14
with blind rehabilitation from the ability of one to sell themselves,
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whether they're, whether they're applying for entry to a university or something or whether
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they're applying for a job or what have you.
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And so I also there was this convergence of technology at the time.
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I mean, I remember in 1991, moving moving from Apple to dos and and some
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of the the vocal. I mean I was using vocalize before JAWS because I thought vocalize did
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the the best job in dos that became window-eyes after after vocalize.
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They were really in my mind the frontrunner with DOS.
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And I also was introduced to the Braille and speak and my gosh,
11:59
yeah. So I mean, I had this little device in my hand and again,
12:03
lifting weights because I carried a Perkins Brailler around same as the same as the tech
12:07
equipment. So I was like, wow, I don't have to carry this Perkins
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Brailler. And it's not that I got rid of my Perkins,
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but being able to take notes versus recording classes and just doing all this hard stuff
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became so much easier.
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And so I'm like, there has to be a way to take the ability to communicate with the
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emergence of assistive technology and then and then somehow parlay that into a career
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designed to help folks via via from an educational standpoint,
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be it for from a vocational standpoint, as far as getting work,
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what does it mean to have an accessible workplace?
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And so it just all kind of came together I was able to sort of get a lot of my work
12:56
behaviors sorted out. As somebody who is a pretty free spirit in my 20s was able to get
13:02
rid of a lot of my bad habits and so forth and begin to become a model employee during
13:08
that time. When I worked for the, for the Cleveland Sight Center and then when
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I got the call and had the opportunity to move into a product management position with
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human, where I felt ready.
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It was based on my educational background, and I've been in sales since I've been in
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since since sixth grade.
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I actually won a school contest selling selling suncatchers for a fundraiser,
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and that's when I got the sales bug.
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I was selling these little cell suncatchers.
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I blew out my competitors in school and won this one.
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This very clever. We call them in the United States.
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Ghetto blasters. They're like these stereos.
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Yes. And. Yeah. And so that's when that's when I'm like I think I could get used to
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selling anything. And then in school, I sold against the vending machines.
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I sold soda and snacks out of my room, and I undercut,
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I undercut, I undercut the vending machines.
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Everybody was happy. I was making money on the side.
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And so I've always liked to sell just the thrill of selling,
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but also the thrill of problem solving.
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Like you want to. You want to save a quarter on that can of soda.
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You walk down to Larry's room versus going to the vending machine.
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So I've always I mean, I've sold everything from talking Bibles to
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enterprise level accessibility services.
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If it can be sold, I will, I will, I will get to know my audience and I
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will find a way to sell it.
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And I don't think that's a bad thing. It's just something I enjoy. And I think I've done
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it in a fairly responsible way.
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I'm not a huckster. I you I usually always say if I,
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if I'm pushing it, it's because I either use it or I believe in the use of it.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, I have to admire, you know, I am not a salesperson.
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So, you know, like. And I bought a few things from you,
15:01
I bought what did I buy?
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The Polaris I bought from you?
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Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I bought Polaris, you bought a few Braille displays,
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I think.
15:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. The talking Bible.
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So there you go. I know all about you.
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Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: You you know, all the way back to the talk.
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I had a company at CSUN 2009, I think it was Aurora ministries or something
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like that. Yeah. Like, hey, I'm like, well, hey,
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I read the Bible, I can help you with that.
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And it's like, so we we sold a lot of talking Bibles right alongside a very expensive
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braille displays, and had a good time with it.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Great great great great.
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So beyond the office, you practice Brazilian jiu jitsu,
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right? How has that martial art discipline informed the resilience and
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problem solving you bring to accessibility work?
15:57
Yeah.
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Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I have spent a lot of time in martial arts,
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and for the past 19 years, it's been strictly Brazilian jiu jitsu when I
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had a little bit of vision.
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When I was younger, I trained in karate and more traditional martial arts,
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taekwondo. Oh my God. I also wrestled in high school,
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which I consider a martial art, even though it's a lot of folks don't.
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It's it's it's one of the oldest martial arts wrestling.
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So I wrestled in high school. I'm a very active person because I'm a very hyper
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person. And so if I'm not active I have too much time on my hands.
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It's just good for me to be active.
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So I've always followed grappling and that sort of thing.
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And the nice thing about jiu jitsu versus some of the other traditional striking
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martial arts is there's a path for people who are blind,
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both with jiu jitsu and judo to, to fully participate and compete and,
16:53
and just really have a good time with it.
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And so I to be honest with you, when I got involved with it,
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I was looking for a change to my, my fitness routine.
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I was involved in a lot of lifting and cardio and stuff,
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and I'm like, I want to get more into group activities again instead of just going to the
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gym and grinding it out by myself.
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So I got involved with it.
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And what it has taught me is that the whole premise behind jiu jitsu,
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the self-defense aspect of jiu jitsu, is for somebody who is Possibly more
17:29
vulnerable or smaller.
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It gives them a way to stay safe and to control where a conflict goes.
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The conflict can end pretty quickly.
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If the if the person is able to subdue and whatever,
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you know, it's just over, or it can end pretty brutally if if the
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person doesn't want to stop, you know, arms can get broken.
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You know, people can get choked unconscious.
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There's a there's a it's all depends on what the what the assailant.
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The assailant wants it to go.
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So that's the self-defense aspect of jiu jitsu.
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The sport. The sport aspect is you've got people who are skilled,
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equally skilled, equally ranked, and they're competing against each other.
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And that that's fun, too.
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But jiu jitsu is very much like a chess match where if if somebody is applying,
18:21
shifting their body one way and you want it to go another way,
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you have to shift your body a certain way.
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So it's very it's kind of like physical chess.
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If you want to think of it that way, the more you get into it. And I have been
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doing it almost 20 years now.
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So I find it it's stimulating both mentally and physically.
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But what also makes it nice is I have learned through jiu jitsu that it's not always okay
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in life, even when you're upset or whatever.
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It's not okay to burn a bridge.
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It's not okay to unload.
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It's not when you know what you can physically do to another person.
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The more you learn in jiu jitsu, like maybe somebody just having a bad day.
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So if I get walking out, walking out.
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There was a person a few months ago who had had too much to drink and bumped into me,
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and I just redirected.
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I just redirected their body and it was cool.
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They didn't mean to, you know, jiu jitsu.
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Larry might have handled that a lot differently.
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You know, I was just leaving a pub and the person just had a lot to drink and bumped
19:25
into me, and he might have just been having a bad day. He wasn't a jerk about it.
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The same can happen with relationships at work relationships with family.
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And so you have to you have to ask yourself what?
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What could be happening to cause a person to behave a certain way?
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And does it really pay to do something that you can't undo?
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In jiu jitsu? Maybe I can subdue somebody without breaking an arm.
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Maybe breaking an arm is not necessary.
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Or maybe not. Choking somebody is not necessary.
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If you can just subdue them and they calm down and they're like, all right, all right.
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We're like you. You don't have to put the foot on the gas the whole time in any sort of
20:10
conflict, be it verbal, be it I'm going to get.
20:13
There's been times when I ran my own company where I got really shafted by other resellers
20:19
like this, just undercut and not treated very well.
20:22
And it's like, all right, I could be out to get them and waste all my
20:27
energy on that. Or I can just stay the course and do what I know is right.
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Maybe point it out that I know what happened.
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And, you know, I still have relationships with people like you who've known me a long
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time and know what I'm about.
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And and so and so I think, I mean, jiu jitsu is just.
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It's been such a life.
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I always tell people my my Christian faith and my jiu jitsu,
20:55
and then I also practice, practice yoga so that I can keep doing jiu
20:59
jitsu because I'm getting older.
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Those three things have really helped shape me my mindset,
21:05
how I treat others and just how I behave.
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And it's like, hey, if things get if things get out of hand,
21:10
they're pretty real. We have a we have a mutual friend who will vouch for me that I
21:16
can handle it. But we knowing.
21:21
Knowledge is power and knowing what you can do doesn't mean you have to do it.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like your analogy to jujitsu being physical chess because I play chess.
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Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes. So, so if I move is one way and you're trying to move and then the checkmate is if
21:40
you can make the other individual tap because they're in a position they can't get away of,
21:44
away from, and it's starting to hurt.
21:47
And so they would tap the matter, tap you, and then you would start again.
21:50
It's a submission that would be your checkmate in jiu jitsu.
21:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. All right. Now you've worked for manufacturers like Humanware and Optilete.
22:04
Optilete founded. You founded Flying Blind, LLC,
22:10
and now you serve as senior lead technologist at Booz Allen Hamilton.
22:20
How have those very different fashion, different vantage points shaped the way you
22:27
approach accessibility today?
22:31
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So when I started with Humanware and it was very much a 100% at assistive technology,
22:38
we were creating things with, with Humanware,
22:40
it was the Braillenote with Optiflex.
22:43
We had bought Alva and we'd done some different,
22:45
different things like that.
22:47
And so it was always about how could we, how could we make a piece of technology
22:53
better? And then sell that technology.
22:56
And so I started in product management to help with the braille note shifted into sales
23:01
because I couldn't say no to sales I was selling even when I was a product manager.
23:05
So I was like, let me into sales.
23:07
And so but Flying Blind came about because I began to see that you could have the best
23:17
part Art of assistive technology.
23:20
And you could have the best assistive technology,
23:23
but if content wasn't accessible, it's kind of like having having the best car
23:29
ever without a paved road.
23:32
Okay. So you could have a Corvette or any fancy car Lamborghini or whatever.
23:37
But if you're, if you're driving over logs and through streams because there's not a
23:41
bridge to drive on, it really doesn't matter how nice the car was.
23:45
And so I liken digital accessibility to removing those logs and removing those,
23:52
those dirt trails and paving so that you can get from where you are to where you want to
23:57
be. And so we're flying blind.
24:00
It was a mixture of still had my finger in at because of the relationships with the vendors
24:06
also wanted to create a low cost.
24:09
You know, we sold a lot of used equipment to people who couldn't afford it, but they were
24:12
scared to buy used equipment because they didn't have somebody like me checking it out
24:17
first, so we built that out quite a bit.
24:19
But then we got more into the iPhone stuff and mobile accessibility then began to
24:27
partner and do some contract work with a number of different companies,
24:33
one of which was Vespero, who owns Freedom Scientific,
24:38
and I actually, I actually had a stint for a few years while wrapping up Flying Blind
24:43
working for the Paciello Group in an accessibility sales role.
24:47
So that was sort of the connection between flying blind and where I'm at now.
24:52
Where I'm at now is I manage a team of for roughly 40 accessibility specialists across
25:01
different federal projects, mostly federal.
25:05
Occasionally we do some commercial work and so forth.
25:08
And it's from everything from auditing to training to implementation of policy and
25:14
whatnot. And so they're all kind of been building blocks where you start with at you
25:19
begin to bake ATN with accessibility and those sorts of things,
25:26
and then you begin to shift left more to accessibility.
25:29
With my work with the Paciello group.
25:32
And that prepared me to get into a situation once I'd been in more of a direct sales role
25:36
with these services being able to shift to more of a business development role at Booz
25:42
Allen. And so they have all kind of I mean, to the to the person who doesn't know me,
25:48
it's like, oh, this guy jumps around every 5 or 6 years.
25:51
Well, I do, but but there's sort of a method to it.
25:54
I'm not a person. I'm probably undiagnosed ADHD.
25:58
I can't do the same thing for too long.
26:00
So but there's a it kind of tells a story if,
26:04
if, if you unpack it that way.
26:06
So that's what I'm doing now.
26:08
And it's really helped shape me as a leader because I'm dealing with a lot of different
26:14
people, and I have a great team, but a lot of having a lot of it is my hiring
26:19
practices and also setting expectations that I want.
26:23
I want folks to have fun, but I want I want folks to get their work
26:26
done. And I don't expect folks to work any harder than I would work or to do anything
26:31
that I wouldn't do. And I lead I really lead from the front by example.
26:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I just remembered you were the one who introduced me to Robert.
26:42
What's his last name?
26:43
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Robert J. Robert O. Robert J.
26:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Robert and I bought the dolphin product.
26:52
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah.
26:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
26:53
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: And I always gave Robert his props.
26:55
He, in my opinion, is the best salesperson in the industry.
27:00
He is fantastic. And traveling with him.
27:04
I think I told you one of my trips up to Quebec City in January,
27:08
and I'm like, what did I do to deserve this?
27:10
Robert? It was
27:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, Lordy.
27:15
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Oh, it's like he's taking this, this American up to Quebec City in January.
27:20
And but yeah, Robert is great.
27:22
I haven't talked to him for a while. I, I know he retired a while back,
27:25
but learned a lot from Robert and he's a he's a great guy.
27:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: He is he is now from early note takers to modern smartphones,
27:38
technology for blind users has evolved dramatically.
27:43
Which milestone device or software release do you think was most transformative and
27:53
why?
27:55
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So for me I would have to say, and it it was passed by,
28:06
but. I would say internet browsing on the braillenote.
28:12
It was passed by because what internet browsing on the braillenote meant was we
28:17
could then tie into bookshare and NLS and download books.
28:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
28:24
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. And so again, back to the weightlifting analogy.
28:27
I used to carry around a lot of Braille books.
28:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Tell me.
28:31
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I got to. Got to take a break from weightlifting and just carry my Braille note
28:35
around with a bunch of books on an SD card.
28:39
So to me, being a part of just getting that, that modem and the original Braille note to
28:47
work before there was Wi-Fi access to download a book was truly a phenomenal like
28:55
that. I mean, there's been flashier things that I've been a part of,
28:59
just beta testing and dealing with the iPhone and apps,
29:03
and we'll talk about that, I'm sure. But as far as my personal
29:06
involvement in something, Being able to move from the hard copy book or
29:13
even just like transferring a book to a device like you used to be able to do on,
29:17
on the Braille light and some of the, some of those devices,
29:21
the Braille and so forth, the old school devices.
29:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
29:26
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: That was truly revolutionary because we we took out a step and we got it from the
29:31
internet and that will that in my career is one of the best feelings ever,
29:37
being able to bring that to market.
29:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think for me, like being able to put things on an SD card,
29:43
a huge yes on a tiny SD card, and then I go around using my victory stream
29:48
to read the thing and listen to it.
29:50
I think, oh my gosh. And when I say to my mom,
29:53
mom, see this little card?
29:56
It has books on it. She looks at me and she says,
29:58
what are you talking? So then I have to explain it to her.
30:02
Yeah.
30:03
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes. So that for me again, I've been involved in some great things.
30:07
I mean, I was on the front end of the wireless braille displays,
30:11
connecting to things and all that, and that was all fun.
30:14
And then obviously some of the, the I device and just dealing with apps and
30:18
those sorts of things. But as far as my involvement direct involvement,
30:23
it had to be connected to the internet first so that we can second download materials.
30:29
It was big in education back then.
30:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right. Okay. Now Flying Blind LLC and top tech tidbits became,
30:42
you know, trusted resources for thousands of blind tech users.
30:48
Yeah. What problem were you trying to solve when you launched them,
30:54
and what impact are you most proud of from that era?
31:00
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So the problem, we sort of touched on that.
31:04
It's like you've got 80.
31:06
You have an accessible content.
31:08
What are our strategies for getting great at to work with accessible content.
31:13
And so I would say let's see as far as my most favorite projects to be involved.
31:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, are you there? Hello.
31:36
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: For I where we developed courseware on specific to effective effective using the
31:42
internet. Effective use of the internet.
31:44
Right. I'm just going back in time and remembering this.
31:47
And then there was also there was another course on developing listening skills for
31:53
employment situations.
31:55
So I've done a few different courses for Hadley,
31:59
but then probably my my crowning jewel for Flying Blind was,
32:03
published in iOS in the classroom.
32:05
Because I had been, I had developed a some professional development courses that I was
32:12
taken on the road and working with educators on how to introduce these devices in the
32:16
classroom. And then AFB had me come on to author and publish a book through AFB.
32:23
So those were both I would say AFB might have won out with Hadley.
32:27
No disrespect to Hadley.
32:28
They were both fun, but those were probably the first and second,
32:32
like my two favorite projects, aside from the day to day work of Flying
32:36
blind.
32:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right? Wow. Now, after 14 years as publisher,
32:43
you handed stewardship stewardship of top tech tidbits over to a new team.
32:51
What did you learn about sustainability and succession in community run projects,
33:00
and how can other advocates set their own initiatives?
33:05
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah, so there's three parts to that answer.
33:08
The first part is I, after 14 years, was beginning to get a little tired of it.
33:15
I was also working for the Paciello group, so it was becoming difficult for me to
33:23
oversee an objective publication because of my role there.
33:31
And I also just wasn't I mean, I was just full blown invested in that,
33:36
and I just, I, I had to just admit that this wasn't my passion,
33:42
and it probably was something that I shouldn't be involved in anymore.
33:46
So I think first is, are are you are you being effective?
33:52
The second is if not, what are you going to do about it?
33:54
And then the third thing is when you decide to hand something off.
33:59
Enough. And I did a pretty good job of this.
34:01
You have to hand it off and move on.
34:03
You can't hand it off and and try to stay with a finger in it,
34:07
because then you're always going to say, well, I would have done this or I would have
34:10
done that. And so, you know, I had a good relationship with the,
34:16
the backbone of, of the, of flying blinds web presence.
34:21
And you know, I really wasn't looking to make any money at it.
34:25
I mean, I could have sold the list and the tidbits publication or tried to do it,
34:32
but I really wasn't looking to make any money at it.
34:34
I wanted just to to be sort of a sort of a revenue type hand-off and something where we
34:40
could just keep it going.
34:42
I had a fair way to exit where there was something in it for me to exit.
34:47
But then when I when I flipped the switch and I exited,
34:50
I was gone. Like, it's just like, I just like you.
34:53
It's kind of like handing over the car keys, but still wanting to share Shared driving
34:57
responsibilities. You can't do that.
35:00
So you have to ask yourself, are you are you effective?
35:04
If not, what are you going to do about it?
35:06
Are you going to reignite your passion or are you going to go do something else? And if you
35:09
decide to do something else, you need to focus on looking at your
35:14
collaboration and then handing it off.
35:17
And when you hand it off, you hand it off.
35:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's something I need to to, to keep in mind myself.
35:25
You know like when you decide to leave, leave.
35:28
Do not look back.
35:29
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Otherwise I would have had wrist ruining a good relationship with somebody who I've
35:38
known a long time because I would have been questioning them and hassling them.
35:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And why are you not doing this?
35:44
Why are you doing that?
35:45
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he wanted to take it in a slightly different direction than I than I
35:50
was. I mean, it's just it's a different It's a different animal now.
35:54
It's not better or worse.
35:56
This is different.
35:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It's a different different thing.
35:58
And yeah. So in your current role as guide sorry.
36:06
Let's start again. In your current role you guide complex federal and defense clients on
36:15
digital accessibility.
36:18
What unique challenges come with marrying security,
36:23
scalability and usability in those environments.
36:28
And what strategies have proven most effective for lasting change?
36:35
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, there's a lot of intersectionality between cyber security and accessibility.
36:41
And the biggest fallout is malware can be introduced inadvertently to situations.
36:51
If you're dealing with a, with a cybersecurity Security application
36:55
that's not accessible.
36:57
Folks can go where they don't mean to go.
37:00
And they can they can open up a whole can of worms.
37:03
So my strategy, especially with defense, is first and foremost,
37:07
you have to accept cybersecurity wins out every time over accessibility when it comes
37:13
to keeping systems safe, whether we like it or not,
37:16
cybersecurity is always going to win because we've got hackers from all over the world and
37:22
blah, blah, blah. And it's like we have to just bow to the bow,
37:27
the knee to cybersecurity.
37:29
But having said that, if you can create interfaces that keep you
37:36
secure while injecting accessibility into the mix,
37:40
then you bring along your disabled clientele along for the ride and help them not be part
37:49
of the problem. I don't I don't have the stats in front of me,
37:51
but malware gets introduced quite a bit when people go where they're not supposed to go.
37:57
And so that's how malware gets downloaded.
38:00
It might get flagged, might not, or it gets flagged,
38:03
and then your machine is all screwed up and you don't know what's happening.
38:07
So a lot can be avoided if you have a secure portal that's also also accessible.
38:15
But it's it's tricky. Like it's, it's it's not easy.
38:18
And there's some times especially when you know,
38:21
you're dealing with you know, certain situations and this,
38:27
you know, information not getting out and so forth,
38:30
where all of a sudden you could have a modal pop up on your screen.
38:33
That's a flash modal to let you know that you're not where you're supposed to be,
38:37
but your screen reader doesn't read it.
38:39
Right. And so that's when I think some of these other tools that come into the equation
38:45
some of the like be my eyes tools and some of these other types of AI tools.
38:50
It's sort of a three way dance, because now we can bring AI into the mix to
38:54
sort of bridge the gap between what is accessible and how do we maintain security.
39:01
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Gosh, you know, not too long ago I got caught.
39:03
I mean, something came up on the screen, right?
39:06
Right. Clue what it was.
39:08
I was a bit sleepy that morning.
39:11
I pressed enter and I got into big trouble.
39:16
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. You. So, you know, you're you're I mean,
39:18
unfortunately, you're a case study of why it's important to have accessibility as part
39:23
of a cybersecurity plan.
39:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What do people realize that though?
39:28
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: No, it's not realized a lot.
39:30
And I mean, it's a chore for feds to realize it.
39:33
But I think everybody, you know, a Cisco or any sort of company like
39:37
that, they it's a it's a big deal.
39:41
And I think there's a market for making that known.
39:46
Because it's a, it's a big deal.
39:47
And again, I think you know, controlling AI in such a way so that it can
39:53
help you get out of situations like that.
39:56
Is is key because, like, there's just a disconnect between your
40:01
assistive technology provider, like a Jaws or a Freedom Scientific or a
40:05
dolphin or whatever. And the folks who are making these,
40:10
these applications that can that can crash your assistive technology.
40:16
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, God. Tell me about it.
40:17
I fell into this trap twice in my lifetime.
40:21
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Oh, man.
40:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I don't want to go through that again.
40:25
Sure. Now, your 2016 book, iOS in the classroom.
40:32
It demystified mainstream tech for teachers of blind students.
40:39
If you were updating that guide today, what new skills or apps would make your
40:48
much teach list.
40:51
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yeah. So use of the camera.
40:54
Use of AI applications like BMIs and IRA.
40:59
And there's a handful of others out there.
41:01
Some mobility applications.
41:03
I use Voice Vista quite a bit.
41:05
Yeah. So so I'll slow down.
41:07
So there's the camera.
41:09
There's also I have not dove into these smart glasses yet,
41:14
although I'm getting close.
41:15
Yeah. I wanted a year, year and a half to go by,
41:18
so a lot of the bugs would get worked out. I wasn't looking to beta test anything.
41:22
So I wanted to get a little bit more stability with Ray-Ban and some of these
41:27
other companies out there.
41:28
I am probably going to get involved with with smart glasses in the next couple of months.
41:33
So camera slash smart glasses apps that involve improving your ability to navigate
41:41
safely, but also AI specific apps, that allow you to do very simple things,
41:48
like take a picture of your when you're traveling your hotel thermostat and get a
41:53
layout of the buttons and be able to make it hotter or colder if you're in.
41:57
If you're in Quebec City in January, you don't want to put the air on.
42:00
You don't want to put the air on, right?
42:02
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes yes yes yes. Oh gosh.
42:05
Yes. Well, there's so many of these glasses on the market these days.
42:10
You've got meta glasses.
42:11
Smart. Yes, yes. I don't know which one to choose anymore.
42:16
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, I'm figuring it out.
42:17
I'll be happy to share when I make a make a decision,
42:20
I'm getting to the point where I want things to calm down.
42:23
I didn't. I don't always have to be on the front end anymore.
42:26
I'll let some of. I've done plenty of that in my life.
42:29
I'll let other folks beat up technology and work some of the bugs out.
42:33
Yeah, and I'm getting to the point where I would like to be a little more hands free,
42:37
because I do use my phone a lot.
42:39
I mean, I use my I use my phone you know, travel around an airport to make sure if I'm
42:45
at a gate number, taking a picture and having it tell me what it is.
42:48
I mean, there are things I do with my camera,
42:51
and I'm like, at some point I do want to be hands free.
42:54
And just have have that.
42:55
I just haven't done it yet.
42:57
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But I just find that being on your phone and walking through an airport,
43:01
if there's too much white noise, it gets me into trouble.
43:05
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: It can be tricky. I mean, I have used IRA, those initial glasses on the
43:11
Android phone, and, you know, I had to.
43:14
You have to tether them up.
43:15
This is before the wire.
43:17
Wire, wire, free glass or wireless glasses.
43:20
And it is pretty cool to be able to do that.
43:24
But you do have to pay attention.
43:26
And if you if you don't, you know, you could.
43:31
We have a phrase in the US that we jokingly say,
43:34
don't try this at home because it could be dangerous.
43:37
So so I would say, don't try this at home all the time.
43:41
But But that's why I'm wanting these glasses to be a little more streamlined.
43:46
And I think we're getting close.
43:47
And so I would love to get more involved in that,
43:51
because I do love not waiting for a gate agent and to striking out on my own and
43:55
finding my gate using the product like IRA, like it's fun.
43:59
But at the same time I'm fairly active and fairly good about pretty good mobility,
44:06
and I don't I don't mind some of the chaos that comes with being on the phone in an
44:10
airport, but it might not be for everybody.
44:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, it's not for me. But I love IRA.
44:16
Yes. Yeah. And I might be testing the metal glasses someday.
44:21
Very soon, but.
44:22
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Good.
44:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And then there's the envision glasses as well.
44:26
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes.
44:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So legacy can be a big word, right?
44:33
When you reflect on three decades in this field,
44:38
what accomplishments do you hope will still be making a difference ten years from now?
44:47
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: So I would like people to remember me as a person who is not a programmer or a
44:55
developer, but who leveraged technology to get the most out of life.
45:01
And anything that I've done via like for note taking or iOS or working with a vendor to
45:08
make their product more accessible or any of that sort of stuff,
45:12
it all goes back to our tagline at Flying Blind was empowerment through technology.
45:19
That was our tagline. And so I'm just an ordinary guy who likes jiu jitsu,
45:25
likes going on hikes with my dogs, likes going to a ballgame,
45:29
likes doing all these different types of things.
45:31
And technology has made everything easier from ordering tickets to getting my boarding
45:40
pass on my phone because I'm terrible about losing things.
45:43
Back to the ADH thing again.
45:46
And so I would want to be remembered as the guy that no matter what he did,
45:50
whether he was selling or teaching or writing or managing the product or leading the team
45:57
or whatever, he used technology to get the most out of life and and was a person who
46:05
wasn't really defined by what he couldn't do,
46:07
but what he could do.
46:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I love that.
46:10
I really like that philosophy, and I think I'm probably the same.
46:14
I would use technology to get the most out of what I need in my life.
46:19
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Yes. I mean, I can chop it up with techie folks if I have to and talk about,
46:25
you know, code remediation and stuff like that.
46:28
I don't enjoy it. I tried to learn how to script write JAWS scripts,
46:33
and I can do it enough to get into trouble, but I can't.
46:37
I don't want to sit still and code like I don't.
46:39
I don't want to sit still and write scripts or code.
46:42
I'd rather be more on the what's happening with it and showing people and and interact.
46:48
I'm not a backroom developer type and there's nothing wrong with that.
46:51
It's just not me.
46:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, not speaking of ball games, Larry, I hope that you are supporting my
46:57
team.
46:58
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: You know, any team that beats up the Yankees,
47:00
I can become a Blue Jays fan really fast, I don't think.
47:03
I think you have more support nationwide down here,
47:07
except for Yankees fans.
47:09
I think everybody's with when the Blue Jays get to the National League because I'm a Cubs
47:14
fan, then we might have an issue.
47:16
But for now, I hope the Blue Jays win the American League.
47:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, it's looking good. I mean, they won the first two games tend to win
47:25
handily. Yeah. I wonder what the Yankees are thinking right now.
47:29
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I don't see how they come back.
47:31
I mean, stranger things have happened, but they just need one more.
47:34
And I hope they blow them out again.
47:36
It couldn't happen to a nicer team.
47:38
Oh.
47:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you very much.
47:41
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: The Yankees fans are going to unsubscribe from this podcast now.
47:44
Yes, I apologize for that.
47:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes. Well that's okay.
47:47
You're just telling me what's on your mind.
47:49
That's all there is to it.
47:51
Oh, Lordy. Well, the clock tells me we're coming towards an end here,
47:56
but I wanted to ask you for your thoughts on where do you think we're going?
48:01
Where is accessibility going?
48:03
How is it going to fit into the landscape as we move forward?
48:08
Especially like with with accessible apps.
48:12
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well I think AI is a scary thing but it's a, it's a positive thing if you can utilize,
48:21
you know, machine, you know, human machine learning which is what AI is if
48:25
you can, if you can use it to solve problems rather than create them.
48:31
So some of these, you know, screen readers are starting to build AI into
48:36
telling you what pictures are.
48:38
Yes, but but I think that will come a point where your screen reader will be a bot and
48:44
you won't have to load software, and you'll be able to interact with your bot
48:49
who will read the screen back to you, and you'll be able to type to the bot or talk
48:52
to the bot. And if I were in the screen reader business,
48:56
both both Freedom Scientific and Dolphin, I would ditch the downloading of software and
49:02
begin to create a screen reader bot.
49:05
That's my free advice for anybody on those teams that are listening.
49:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Do you think screen readers, the screen reader,
49:12
developers, and manufacturers need to be paying more attention and looking for ways to
49:19
get more involved with AI?
49:21
Do you think or.
49:22
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I think, I think they are.
49:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: They think they are. They're days over a screen readers.
49:29
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I mean, as we know them and I think they need to accept that.
49:32
I mean, I don't work for TPG or the Paciello Group anymore.
49:37
They're owned by the same group who owns Freedom Scientific.
49:40
I am sick and tired of paying 15, 1600 bucks for a piece of software to run on
49:47
$1,000 laptop. I'm tired of it.
49:50
It's not that I can't afford to.
49:51
It's that it's wrong. And we need to have licensed type.
49:56
Let's license this bot.
49:58
I don't mind paying something per month or per year to have this screen reader bot so I
50:03
can interact with a computer in the same type of way with something that's,
50:08
that's human like that's going to help me get through accessibility issues.
50:12
But this whole nonsense and this whole nonsense of paying this much money to do
50:18
things that we were doing in 1990s, that's over.
50:21
Like. And they can do this as I jokingly say,
50:24
we can do it the hard way or the harder way.
50:27
You know, the hard way is you get on board with it.
50:29
The harder ways you're going to get run over.
50:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, I'm glad you you're saying this because I for years I've really had problems
50:38
understanding the philosophy of the freedom scientific folks.
50:42
A lot of blind and visually impaired people can't afford this price.
50:46
And yet you go and you stab us with these prices,
50:50
you don't care.
50:52
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Well, it's not all that they don't care.
50:54
It's that they have hired a bunch of programmers and a bunch of people on tech
51:00
support, and they need to be able to pay for it.
51:03
So back in the back in the day, like, people also would get mad if,
51:08
you know, you have a piece of freeware like Nvda,
51:11
which is great, but there's nobody you can you can't call a phone number and get your.
51:17
And so that all I mean I'm not siding with them altogether.
51:20
I'm just telling you the logistics of running a business.
51:23
But now if you have a human AI screen reading bot.
51:30
They should be able to do the job of a lot of that.
51:32
And then the downside is what happens to the 20 people in tech support that get laid off.
51:38
So there's no there's no easy answer.
51:40
And I mean, I came on pretty strong with freedom Scientific and Dolphin.
51:44
But there's no easy solution because if they go down this AI bot road then then then they
51:51
have a situation where, what do we do with all these jobs that are
51:54
lost? And this is the problem with AI is it's I mean,
51:57
I'm seeing it in the accessibility space.
51:59
There are companies creating AI coding utilities to take the place of,
52:07
you know, manual testers.
52:09
It's it's there's no easy answer.
52:11
But we have to they have to figure it out because the days of traditional screen
52:16
readers, if there's a traditional screen reader by 2030,
52:19
I'll be surprised.
52:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I would be too. I would be too, yeah.
52:23
Wow. Larry, are there any final thoughts you'd like to share with our listeners?
52:29
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: No, I just would like to thank anybody on this who's listening,
52:34
who I've interacted with before.
52:37
I always jokingly say most of my interactions have been good.
52:41
It's been a handful of not not good ones with with customers from time to time,
52:46
both good and bad has helped me grow as a person.
52:48
So all of my interactions with this industry,
52:51
mostly positive, a handful of negative have made me has shaped me as a person.
52:57
And I'm definitely not perfect there.
53:00
There have been times when maybe I could have done things differently or better.
53:05
But I appreciate everybody's patience and grace as I try to figure this thing out
53:11
alongside with all of you.
53:12
I mean, it's been great.
53:14
I'm looking forward to to what lies ahead in the next few years and and coming up and it's
53:20
it's just been a pleasure to to be on the podcast and to share a little bit of who I am
53:25
with with folks, so I appreciate the opportunity.
53:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I want to thank you for having come on to our podcast.
53:31
And like I said, you know, you've played a big part or a big role in my
53:35
life as my mentor, my advisor, my friend, and we will continue to walk the
53:40
walk.
53:41
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: I appreciate that and I hope everybody has a great ending to the to the the Blue Jays
53:47
Yankees series. And yeah, we'll see where October takes us and what
53:51
ends up to be in the last two teams, right?
53:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah. Well, let's hope for the best.
53:57
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: Great. Thank you Donna.
53:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you Larry. You take care and we'll be in touch.
54:02
Larry L. Lewis, Jr.: All right. Bye bye.
54:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye. Bye now. By.
54:07
Podcast Comentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at Donna at gmail.com.
54:13
Until next time.