Latest / Reframe First / Fabio Cannavale, Founder & President of BHeroes | The Future of AI in Travel & Personalization
Transcript
- Oleksij Rak: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Free Frame First. I'm Alexey, the host of the podcast. And let me welcome our today's guest, Fabio Canevale, founder of lastminute.com travel group, also founder of ⁓ investment company called Be Heroes. And Fabio is right now in the middle of Pacific Ocean. So, hi Fabio, and thanks a lot for joining. Fabio: you Hello, hello to everybody. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, so from what I've learned, you've built a lastminute.com travel group which has several platforms, it's like Last Minute deals, it's BravoFly and probably others. Could you tell us more of the background of the businesses that you built? And let's start from there. Fabio: Yes. Yes, I'm ⁓ a very fan of shovel and sailing. I'm currently sailing the Pacific crossing. And so with my first business was to build a small operator sailing boat. But from that I see that it was too small and I started to sell on the web. And ⁓ with this experience, I first joined the founding team of Dreams. in 99 and I worked three years with them but then I thought my role was to lift and considering my chance because I was the third founder you know how it works when you are the third founder you have a lower chance and so in 03 I founded a new company because there was an opportunity in the market it was the low-cost flight And so we started with a bootstrap that was a volagratis with the experience of the dreams. Basically, we were connecting all the low cost airlines because there was many airlines and nobody knew exactly how to do. And also was not possible in theory to resell airlines because Ryanair's jet of the airlines didn't want us to sell them. But again, the customer wanted and so. Oleksij Rak: . you and then we'll into the next one. Fabio: And from that, we really scale market, we started to grow very fast from Italy. And then we went abroad with the brand Bravo Fly because Vologracia has been very Italian. And then after 10 years in 2014, we did an IPO and then we in Switzerland and then we bought lastminute.com. That was a better brand. It was a company that was larger than us. And since then, we are a Latino.com group. Today, last year, we are trading at three stocks exchange. Last year, we did around four billion in gross travel value. And we have about 400 million of our own revenue. But we focus at the moment more in a package. We are through Preto. We work for, let's say, our own clients. And also, we have a very strong partnership with Booking.com. Oleksij Rak: Okay. Okay. Fabio: wherever you go in Europe in about 25 countries, you choose to holiday or travel package, it's our technology and we are even the license, so we are the merchant for booking. I mean, the company is doing well. In the meantime, when I did the IPO, I started investing in startups, not only in travel, and the idea was... Oleksij Rak: Okay. Thank you. Okay. Fabio: the new entrepreneurs and also for me was very interesting to keep my mind always updated about what's going on. And this is Beers. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, awesome. That's a great story of 25 years and of the Fabio: Ah yes, almost 30 years that I've been in the travel business, let's say, because my first company was founded in 95. Oleksij Rak: ⁓ then it's 30 years. Awesome. ⁓ From what I understand, mostly you are packaging flights and accommodation or are you also packaging some local itineraries nowadays? Because for what is a chat with different business, everybody's trying to package something. Fabio: No, we eat. Yeah. We started off really putting together in the beginning only flights and hotels. So basically, this is the basic technology. But then we understand that there is a value in what we call curated travel. So we try to do prepack. So in the beginning, our business was more putting together without having any decision from our side. It was just a platform to put the price together. Today we are really two operators. We have the license in 15 or 20 different countries. And we really try to decide which could be the best hotel and the best. So we do what we call a prepackage. basically we are like a normal two operator, like two-we, but we don't own the assets. And we sell also transfer, we sell also experience. We are more focused. We have two focus, let's say. One is what we call beach holiday, and one is city break. So ⁓ we are not doing for the moment a canary because they are more complex. It's more that the people go. for one week in vacation in one hotel and we provide the transfer, the rental and maybe some excursion and we have of course many different partnerships and we are integrated at the end so we sell service from our other provider and our value is to put all the things together and ⁓ offer to the customer a good experience. Oleksij Rak: you Fabio: It's clear that with the AI, everything is changing. And so we have to adapt very fast to the change. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, yeah, it is changing. Fabio, like another question would be with regards to depersonalization. I am seeing like more and more of the trends of ⁓ smaller tour operators ⁓ shifting towards like highly personalized experiences for the travelers and so on. My question would be, is it demand from users from change travel or behavior to get this kind of depersonalization? Or is it smaller players trying to escape from domination of global players on the market and they are re-educating market and re-educating travelers into that niche? So what's that? Is it demand from travelers or is it natural shift of... Fabio: I mean, I've known that is, of course, there is a demand. The point is to scale. So we have, I mean, we try a lot of different things as you can imagine in 20 years. And we have, for example, a service for a specialized travel, but it's more we call JP travel, but it's more the phone for friends and family to really do Oleksij Rak: of service providers on the market. Yeah. Fabio: a way to travel, but at the end, the point is how to scale that because the business now industry of course is in the industry of numbers where you have a big economy of scale. And then what is important is how much the technology can work for you. So probably with AI combination, mean myself when I travel, Normally I will use my stuff to organize my travel with my ideas. Today I see with AI it's very easy to have all the information and all the especially knowing my needs. So probably a combination of artificial intelligence and someone that do fulfilling because at the end you need to have a complete the best, let's say the best prices, the best things and ⁓ Oleksij Rak: I'm going to turn it back to this. And then someone who's been in this for several years, has read the book and has seen the book and has it and found it and maybe has been sent to same place. One of the more important things that we're trying to do is to try to find to this and try to do this and try and try try to this and and try to do try to and try to this Fabio: states that everything is okay could open also more structural industry for creative travel, let's say specialized travel for specific customer needs. The problem of this business at the moment, I mean in the past, was that either you know very well your clients or some business model you pay a fee upfront to have someone organizing. Otherwise, is a risk to spend a lot of time for someone and then he doesn't have at the end a booking. But I think really this is one of the frontiers, something where we are working on to really translate what AI can prepare for a person's loss to really have a case that is perfect for you with all the booking. This is, I think, the future challenge. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Yeah, Fabio: Because I don't know if you use yourself, AI, but I talk about normal AI, like ChalkGBT and Claude, and ask, I think the real value is that they know you. It's big challenge, because it's a big challenge also for last minute. Because if today I go to my own AI, they know my family, what they like, the kind of hotel we like, where we've been in the last... months because you know all the questions and it's very difficult for a company to have access to all this data and so this is really a challenge I think. Oleksij Rak: raise a really interesting point with regards to like... ⁓ On one hand, on one side, it moves into agentic personal experiences when AI knows you, knows you well, knows your habits. And it almost got the ability to do the checkout, but OpenAI recently backed off from that and they did not implement checkout in chat GPT. But on the other hand, when you want to book something on that site, everybody that I'm chatting with tell me AI cannot replace human, AI cannot be your tour guide, AI cannot solve your problems. So there should be human. And also there are others who are trying to automate everything, like automated itinerary creation and so on and forth, automated customer support. And there should be some golden middle where it all will end, like AI for one and knowing about you. And on the other end, there should be some automations plus human, some hybrid approaches, how to make the booking and the purchase happen. And where do you think it will end up in the nearest future? Or maybe not nearest, in a year or two years of time. Fabio: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, first of all, I think this time is very difficult to forecast the future because what we have to to have in mind that the AI is something that is doubling the capacity every four months. It means that the capacity of AI increased 10 times per year. So this is a phenomenon that we never had before in the past. What is our idea about that and what we are working on is that to be connected with all the AI engine. I think the AI will be, I'd say, the Google for traffic company of the future. So probably we will get not anymore traffic from AdWords and from maybe Facebook, but we will have a lot of users from AI. And so we are working in that we totally connected with this engine since, I mean, this month should be the first connection in order to exactly do what you are saying. So when a person find something, then he needs really someone that finalize the booking and give the customer service. This of course also that should be a lot of AI because we Oleksij Rak: So, we're going to to do a little bit of a little bit little bit bit bit bit bit bit bit a bit little a little little little little a little bit bit bit bit bit bit bit of bit little Fabio: and more than three million, no, we have a four million customer per year of which half of them have some interaction with our customer center. And of course, we are using a lot the audio automation with AI, but of course, with a human supervision for the moment. And so we have this experience, we are trying to optimize in the best way audio operation. Oleksij Rak: and the first thing we're going to is a little bit of a a a little bit of bit bit a bit a bit a bit bit bit bit little little a a a bit a bit a little a a bit bit bit little little little bit little bit of little bit little bit little bit of little bit Fabio: utilizing AI. Every year we see the cost of our operation variable cost decrease because of course we can use better technology. And at the end, think the challenge is that the episode to connect. At the end, I remember when Google launched Google flights, Google hotels, everyone was talking that was 10 years ago, 15 years ago about the end of online travel agency. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Fabio: because Google was entering this space. think that is the same. So these big tech companies are not interested to go into the work of a travel agency and to manage operations. By the way, you need a license in most of Europe to manage this business. And ⁓ I don't imagine that any ⁓ AI engine can do that or want to do that. And there should be always someone that at the end solve the customer problem with ⁓ competence. So the difference is that the source of traffic will be different. But I mean, I remember when I started the first business that was eDreams, Google was not existing. So we were buying the travel ⁓ part of the big portals. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Fabio: I always like to go to the newspaper. Then at the end, we manage and we build our My Business, but like I said, it's really leveraging on the better knowledge by AdWords. And I think these third wave will be to know how is the best way to integrate with AI as a source of customer. Of course, nobody knows today, but... experiment and you will try to be innovative, think we should find a way. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I see. So basically, AI will not be booking trips for you, but it will be redirecting users to specific platforms that help them book the trip. So AI will remain as some kind of exploration. Fabio: Yeah, I mean, my dream and we try also to work on that is that people can have our app or we have our partner like booking.com and really can have also the app as the first access. But these, think, would be very difficult because even If I have an app where I look all my travel, if I don't your family, your what you did in the past, even which movie you look yesterday or whatever, so the quantity of information is huge. And I have to believe that a ⁓ customer can export his own personality. Oleksij Rak: you Fabio: from an AI engine to another one. And so at the end, think that the point of entry should be the AI that you use more for your life. Oleksij Rak: Hmm. Fabio: But then, mean, it's very early to understand how many people use, how will be the regulation. If people use only one AI, when they use more, ⁓ all the question about GDPR and privacy. I mean, it's not easy really to understand where we are going. But I think at least for people that are innovative, having the opportunity to have someone that know you in deeper. Oleksij Rak: Yep. . Fabio: Of course they can advise you much better. And for my personal life I already do like that. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, that's a very good point that like a agent will start knowing a lot about you. Now I had a discussion in the podcast recently that we were comparing travel to Netflix and Netflix knows a lot about your habits, a lot about what you watch, what you prefer and so on. That's why Netflix can suggest ⁓ like next show or next movie that you should be watching. In case of travel agencies, there is no customer loyalty, almost no customer loyalty. And travelers, they do not travel so often. So in the end, travel agency does not have data about user. But that's something that AI will soon be having. Your personal AI agent, AI assistant, whatever will be having all the information about you. And there should be some connection between that knowledge Fabio: Yeah. Oleksij Rak: and the booking process on travel agencies. I guess the market should find how it looks like because right now it's not obvious yet. Awesome. Fabio, like what change in travel and buyer behavior have you noticed recently that happened? Maybe post-COVID, it did change. Maybe with younger generations, it's coming into play. Since you're operating quite big platforms, like what changes have you noticed recently? Fabio: I think that, I mean, for young generation is very disruptive because at the end you had first COVID and then AI and the two things are really a ⁓ big challenge because I think that what everyone discover and we did and but many company is that Oleksij Rak: me. . Fabio: try to after COVID to ⁓ minimize the remote working, even if you cannot go totally back. So at the end, for example, we have at least four days in the office. And this was very important, especially after COVID to reconnect all the people to the company. ⁓ I would say the challenge is that just after the end of the wave started, AI, I see it's a different mentality of the people in the company. There is the early adopter and there is the people that like behind and unfortunately, it's the truth is the people that don't Oleksij Rak: Okay. Fabio: and they embrace quickly AI in a company at that because any company have to transform all the operation, all the process using AI. ⁓ I see what's happening in the big tech in US like Amazon, Meta, they are releasing 15, 20 % of the people per year. This is amazing. In Europe, there is also for Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Fabio: Labor law and for mentality, we are still say behind in this trend. What I notice in my company is that it happens that first there is some people that leave. That is by the way, it's independent by department. By the way, sometimes even the developers, we have a 400 developers, they want to stay behind because they say, but nobody, no agent can develop as good as me. And maybe you have people that work with administration and finance that they very early adopters, they use a lot of AI. So this is something that we notice that is counter-intuitive. And then another thing that you notice that is very important is that when people lack of resource, they adapt. So the point is if you have a person that has, I don't know, 20 people working in this team, And for any reason, there is, I would have, they have only five or 10. At the end, they adapt and they can do the same work with less people. So talking with others, especially in US, I noticed that the strategy, the only possible strategy is really to reduce resource and have the organization adapt. Because otherwise you don't do quick enough. Oleksij Rak: . Fabio: Today, the big opportunity is that if in any department, have less people because people resign, at the end, this is the opportunity because you can have this work done by other people. And this is an opportunity for the people to adapt and use more AI. And just that you take out the oxygen to the organization and she and the organization can survive. And this is the faster way to change. Otherwise, people here ⁓ try to live really easy and stay in the office and fence and go to the coffee shop. Another thing that's very interesting I read from some papers is that the productivity of CEO and top executives increase much more with the AI. than from employees. And this is the reason. of course, the CEO and top executives use AI productivity gain to make more things, to look at more issues, to look more in depth and whatever, while the normal employee use AI to have more free time. So I say, this is my work, this is my job. I was requested to do this job if I instead of... Oleksij Rak: . Fabio: eight hours, I take only four hours to that. The other four hours I can chat with friends, I can go in the bar of the office. And this is, of course, I understand it's very good for the people, but it is not good for the organization in the competitive environment. What I say all the time to my people, because there is a lot of resistance from the company, at least in Europe, in France, in Italy, also UK, where we are. Oleksij Rak: See you. Thank you. Fabio: Germany of course to have really lay off. And I say, okay, I know it's sad, but this is not, let's say us, it's the competitors. Because if the competitors are doing someone or a new company, a new startup is doing the same job with less resources, we are dead if you don't do the same thing. And so you have to adapt. I know it's not very nice versus the people, but you have to adapt quickly to survive. And this will be a big challenge in the organization. And most of the companies, think, they didn't understand yet. And in the people, what we see, I talk often with my CEO. I have not today an operative role. I'm just more an advisor of the CEO of the company. Oleksij Rak: . Fabio: And our discussion is at the end, probably the winner will be the people that are impressed AI for their life. And they will do, they are doing also for the worker. And this will be the survival. The people that say, yes, but I will do them. My typical thinking AI talking to us in different sector, wherever I talk, AI is the great thing. It's changed the future, but Oleksij Rak: Okay. Fabio: in my specific sector doesn't work. If you ask to psychology, to lawyer, to medical, everyone give you the same answer. developers. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, that's also what I'm hearing that ⁓ people do benefit a lot from AI in their productivity. It's like they're gaining from 20 to 100 % of gaining productivity, but businesses do not. And businesses have not learned yet how to benefit from that, ⁓ besides basic AI automations and stuff. Fabio: Yeah, back customer care, of course. Oleksij Rak: So there is a gap, like people can't get in. And I've also had some interviews with companies that were operating on very, very slim margin. And because of that, they were forced to do the layoffs. And they confirmed what you just mentioned, the ⁓ smaller teams, they operated at the same level of performance of productivity as they did with a few times bigger team, you know, because of necessity people had to adapt. And like they embraced and implemented this AI like in automations in every single process and adjust, so doing fine with much smaller teams. yeah, that's really the reality that's coming with all these layoffs. Fabio: Yeah. Yeah, it's a sad reality at the end, but at the end it's really, I mean, it's a, it imposes ethical problems of how the organization should survive. I think people that... didn't get understood really the wave of this change in the every life of the people. Oleksij Rak: Yep. Yeah, maybe some like bit more financial, not about the rest of the profit numbers, but financial rather questions of what are the biggest cost drivers like for example in your product and how you're dealing with them nowadays with also with automations and with new feature development. So what drives the cost the most? Fabio: Yeah, what I mean, we are a public company, so our number is public. So there is no secret. Maybe they're secret by single product, but at least the big numbers are public. And if we publish our team and so there is no secrets. And I mean, what I see is ⁓ basically what we try to do is also a strategy, you know. Oleksij Rak: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Fabio: So we don't want to maximize. We are a quite profitable company. had announced last year we had 55 million of EBDA. So the company is going well. But what we are doing, we are investing in marketing. But then what happens, if you look in the last two years, we have the reduction of operating costs, especially the variable operating costs. Oleksij Rak: Okay. Fabio: because this is really, as you said, this more intuitive, like basic process, like payments, customer care, all the what we call operation. On that, every year we reduce costs about 10 % thanks to the AI. We are not so good, and this is always a big discussion within me and the... Oleksij Rak: Okay. Okay. Fabio: executive team about the fixed cost because I think the fixed cost also should be reduced. At the moment what we manage is to reduce people, pay some people more, tomorrow let's the total fixed cost the same. That is already a reduction if you consider. But it's not easy to reduce but we are working on it. And all the gain we have from let's say Oleksij Rak: Not good. Fabio: growth and productivity, we invest in marketing. Because I think marketing will be key. At the end, what you have is your brand, your customer. There is a new way to acquire customers through also AI, other way to acquire a customer. Because at the end, the other thing is that you cannot say anymore that you are investing more in technology because technology is a product developer, let's say, have higher productivity. So only keeping the same, it means that you should increase capacity 20, 30 percent per year. And the same is about software and technology because everything costs less. So at the end, having the overall cost of technology the same, it means that you invest in 20 percent. And really, the extra profit we are generating, we try to invest in marketing. And this is a positive loop because the more we invest in marketing, the more we grow. Last year, we grew double digits. This year, we are growing double digits. And basically, if you look at the shifts from, we just look at the numbers we published from 2019. That was our record year before COVID. We had marketing cost that was, I think, 36. and now we went to 40 % so we increase but it's deliberative so we say the extra profit the more linear organization we try to invest in market to global this is the basically philosophy we try to work Oleksij Rak: Yeah, but do you think that everybody will be doing the same and basically... ⁓ You know, the market is fixed, the global market, and everybody will be investing more into marketing because the rest of the operations can become a bit more efficient. And in the end, the outcome of like one euro invested euro dollar will be less and less. So you invest more, but you gain the same amount, the same results. Fabio: You know, mean, investing in marketing is many things because it is also giving loyalty program to the customer. It's not only, let's say, advertising, it's giving advantage to the user that have your own app, for example. At the end, I know the point is that, of course, we say that if you consider the more... you are in an innovative sector, the more your product is unique, the less you need to do marketing. mean, if you are open AI or Google in the beginning, probably the investment in marketing was almost zero. But then when the product is more a commodity, at the end, what is the difference? The brand loyalty, the one. And so I know that is a Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Fabio: The best way is always to have something unique and we're working also to that to be something that we have only us, what we call our product. And this is the best, so when I invest the best company always the one that have no competition because it's also a product. you see like Google is an example, but look also at the reality. No AI in the beginning two years ago was only charge GBT. Now I read that cloder is at the level that you would invest in that the Super Bowl act. So they went to the most traditional TV commercial. They spend lots of money that is nothing compared with the spending in the machine and computing and and that the Oleksij Rak: you you Fabio: And it reverts the competition. because at the end, I don't know how many people can really understand and appreciate the difference between, I don't know, for example Claude and child GBT or Gemini. And at the end, what is the difference? You go where you trust is a better experience, no? And Claude, did two very interesting things. First, they... Oleksij Rak: . Fabio: invest a lot in commercial at the Super Bowl in the US. And second, there is this huge statement against Trump and the military service. are putting at risk 500 million of investment from defense. But on the other hand, all the people think, OK, this guy are going against Trump, so they have to be free. And so if I have to give my life to their hands. So this is also a very smart market move, I think. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Fabio: So at the end, but it's marketing. they are not even the big IT giants. They have probably today very similar technology and mostly for why people should use one or the other because of customer experience. Oleksij Rak: So you're investing into building your brand and customer experience. It's not about ads, it's about better brand representation and better customer. With regards to Claude, Claude is not only that they invested into marketing and doing the right moves with Trump and with Pentagon, but they also built a great product. They invested a lot into the product. ⁓ Fabio: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course, the problem should be. The point is that. Oleksij Rak: Maybe like for the mass market, for the mass market, know, it's, yeah, the mass market might not distinguish the product, but for the business, it's an awesome product. So that's the greatest product out there. So OpenAI is not even close there. Fabio: Yeah, but if you think in general, with AI, will be always more difficult to differentiate and have a better technological product. Because any UI can copy very quickly. The difference will be probably to have the better ideas. So also, for example, in travel, not to have any kind of innovation to be very close to the customer to try to be Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Fabio: But it's not a technological advantage because probably everybody can copy and do very quickly. Because the access to productivity is much higher. And everyone can copy you maybe quicker. This is the risk of any company, of any technological company. That sustain a technological advantage is very difficult. Why probably Coca-Cola that has no technological advantage or Nike? Oleksij Rak: So. Fabio: They are only brands. They are probably the company that has less track in it. Oleksij Rak: I see. Fabio, sorry. With regards to other market trends other than AI, what do you see that has changed in travel or behavior, in whatever? What was changing on the market besides everything AI related? AI exploration, AI automation, and so on. Fabio: I mean, I think there is a trend that can be positive, that if you think the big problem for me of travel, being by itself a traveler, is massification. So massification means that I was impressed by Placía, I went to Sevilla, that is not, let's say, one of the most important destinations, but it's a popular place. and I want to go to the cathedral, that everyone say, are you crazy? You want to go to the cathedral and you haven't booked two weeks before, you cannot go. And this is what's happening in the travel, not that everyone wants to go in the same place. And there is a big mass justification. I think that with AI, it's not only, it's also trend of people to go outside the beaten track. So people say, okay, I've been already in London, in Paris, I don't want to go. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. . Okay. Fabio: always in the same place. And so I think it is good trend that are going in the same direction. So one side, people are a little bit fed up to do all the same stuff. And so they want to do something different. And from another way from AI, I use myself for that. I travel a lot. Like in my last travel, for example, Sevilla or Istanbul. I saw that the mass market destinations, by the way, I'm 60, a lot, so I saw already, were overbooked and or overcrowded. And it's very easy to find, thanks to AI, much easier than before, all the alternative and seeing something that is really more close of the junior life. And so this could be an opportunity for Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Fabio: a lot of people for travel because they can have a more authentic experience from a service provider because at the end they can be on the market very easily and can contact very easily a customer already on the ground. at the end, can say, AI can connect much easily the final traveler with I would say the authentic experience of the service provider, local service provider. And this, I think, will be a trend. Because at the end, in the world, there are so many places that are out of the beaten track. And that's fantastic. And probably they had probably no accessibility before. Now there is more accessibility of both physical accessibility and the information accessibility. because some places are difficult to reach but also it's difficult to know how to get there. And now consider automatic translation. So with your phone you can talk to whoever you want and even if you go in a county where nobody knows the language you can have access to that. And this is an opportunity, let's say, of a big part of new travel. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Fabio: I mean, I like to discover new places, just here for example, in some remote island in Capoeira de Chapela, where there is two islands where everybody goes, but then there are other eight islands where nobody goes. Or I've been to Georgia, for me it was first time, and there is some area in Georgia that was amazing. So there is so many places in the reality in the world that are open to incredible, authentic experience. And I think AI, this will be... a good opportunity and a good opportunity for everyone that wants to go outside the massification. Then maybe many people would want to go and have this experience, but I think this will be a trend. I mean, I've been in the industry since 40 years, more or less. remember that Italians, for example, before they only went to the UAE brief, the same, know, in, let's say, Oleksij Rak: So, go ahead So, I'm to start with the first So, going to first So, So, going So, going to first So, question. So, So, So, going the first So, going So, with first question. So, Fabio: all-inclusive resort that they were going to Egypt or to Maldives and they had the Italian cook and they had exactly the same experience of staying at home. And today all this kind of travel package are disappearing. People want to go somewhere and have a more local personalized experience and this is a clear trend that is in the travel because the people are more experienced. have traveled more, they know more the language. Imagine a world where you can talk with everyone because you just show your phone with Google Translate or whatever kinds. You can talk to everyone and this is already existing. And ⁓ so it's much easier to travel and to do different experiences. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, yeah, with regards to these destinations, like my last crowd, I heard the term of dupes, duped destinations. So it's less crowded, provides a similar experience, authentic experience, and it's cheaper. it's kind of like, that's what destination management companies are working towards to like, to... to evolve local communities and to spread the load from popular destinations. With regards to lastminute.com, what else are you working on? What are your main targets nowadays in terms of business development? Is it automating everything or are you looking into some new business niches? What is next? What are your bets about the future? Fabio: Hi. What I'm doing is exactly this direction. as I told you before, we were having only flights, then we started to have flights and hotels. Today our key work is, we are advising you, so our mission is really what we call collective travel. So we advise you what to do. We are going also to personalize some hotels, so better links with some hotels and then... Oleksij Rak: Hmm. Fabio: ⁓ in this professionalization and the way to say you can feel part of a community. And so really it's really to have a sort of brand. I I think in the OTA, when the OTA started, I remember when the people say, but I prefer to on the original OTA instead of, don't know. big games that you can use in Italy. how you can compare companies that make 2 million and the companies that make billions of things. provide let's say of the bigger team was we are reliable if you book with a and go in your town and your town is there you're booking this okay you take the plane and the plane is there and this is the provide that's what you were doing the last years i think today we have to do a step forward so if you book with last minute it's not true that your service is there this of course is the prerequisite but the hotel is It's clean, it's nice, it's in the right place and we help you to choose the right one and maybe we even have somewhere, not maybe because we are having the summer, a personalization of that in order to feel at home of what you really need. So this I think is the future. So to really trust someone, not anymore that give you the basic. but that give you exactly what you need. And then we go back to what we discussed about AI, that probably if we have really back to your needs from AI, or maybe they do the first choice from AI, then you go with someone that you know what you want. And this is really a challenge, because everyone, maybe when you choose a hotel, everyone wants something different. For me, it's very important, for example, that the view of the room is good and there is no noise. For other people, maybe it's better to be in the center of the town and the life of the city, you know? And so there is not the best to tell. There is the best to tell for you in that moment. And this is really, I think, the challenge for everyone for the future. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, yeah that really makes sense Fabio: not a basic service, but exactly what you are looking for. And to do that, of course, we have to know you as well as possible. This is the challenge for last minute and for any online travel operator. Oleksij Rak: That's also the concept I was thinking of, how to connect all of them. Yeah, thanks for these thoughts. Maybe if I get some numbers in the end before I wrap it up, in terms of implementation of all these AI ⁓ automations, AI tools for customer support for any other niche of your business. How much do you think you've saved in terms of percentage wise, whatever wise? Because on one hand, we decided that AI can benefit a person a lot ⁓ in terms of productivity, but businesses do not benefit. But still, of spheres of your business, of businesses, you do automate and you do automate heavily. And these that you managed to already automate, how much do you think you've saved? Fabio: I mean the point is very difficult to make prediction on something that is doubling the capacity every four months. That means that they increase the capacity ten times per year. So in my view, and this is what I transmit to my SEO, is that a company of Las Minas like Las Minas that today has 1800 people. probably can be managed by 100 people. the productivity increase for me is 90%. Telegram has 30 people. And I think if you start from scratch, today you can be the company where the, you know, it's very popular these things of one person unicorn, But I think you can really be the infrastructure scratch only with the AI. Oleksij Rak: Whoa. Fabio: company with very few people, 20 people if you start from scratch, from zero to develop a new concept. So I think that at the end the productivity gain should be massive. And we are really at the beginning. Today we have a target of let's say increasing productivity of 15 % per year. This is what is only the reading of what's happening in US. All the big tech in US is between 10 to 20 % of increased productivity per year. if you increase this productivity, it means that you put some productivity gain. Let's say that if you increase productivity 20%, 10 % could be doing more stuff, and 10 % could be cross-culture. for the moment what is our objective. Then we will realize objective, I don't know, maybe later than what we forecast to be, but the long wave I think is massive. I have a ⁓ very good friend in my life who has a development company. And he say, today, I challenge my people in a company with 200 developers who work for the brand, especially in the fashion, because I do myself with agents work. And as he say, how you can pretend I pay you if I can do the same and on. So let's say that the potential of productivity It's amazing this guy with the night after of his own job he produced with the AIJ agent website doing comparison and chopping of wine. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I see. I also have seen that on the market recently. Well, Fabio, thanks a lot for all your thoughts. We are closing to an hour, so I don't want to waste your time anymore. Thanks for joining and have a great sale on your boat. Fabio: Yeah. Okay, thank you very much. you know we have the sun in your eyes and so we are seeing it. It's a very nice scene. Oleksij Rak: Awesome, awesome. Well, have a great trip. Fabio: Okay. Thank you. Bye bye.