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Navigating Your Path - S1E4: A Conversation with Donna Wolk · Navigating Your Path

• 0:04
  Duane Newton: Hi, welcome to Navigating Your Path.
• 0:07
  Duane Newton: I'm your host, Duane Newton.
• 0:09
  Duane Newton: My guest today is my longtime friend and colleague, Dr.
• 0:13
  Duane Newton: Donna Wolk.
• 0:15
  Duane Newton: Donna is the division chief of molecular and microbial diagnostics and development at Geisinger Health System in Danville, Pennsylvania, where she's been for the past 13 years.
• 0:28
  Duane Newton: It was really a thrill for me to chat with her and learn that she was a first-generation college graduate in her family, a single parent raising her daughter through grad school, how a serendipitous health and wellness discovery changed the path of her life, and the impact that an important book had in helping her learn how to give herself more grace.
• 0:51
  Duane Newton: We actually had a bit of a technical glitch about two-thirds of the way through, so if you're watching the video, you may see a slight change.
• 0:59
  Duane Newton: But otherwise, you're getting our real, unfiltered, and unedited conversation.
• 1:05
  Duane Newton: I hope you enjoy.
• 1:10
  Duane Newton: Thanks for joining today.
• 1:11
  Duane Newton: I, I really appreciate it.
• 1:13
  Duane Newton: Um, it's exciting for me to start doing this and, um, getting a chance to.
• 1:20
  Duane Newton: Talk with people who I have known for so many years and admire and love and just feel like this strong sense of connection.
• 1:29
  Duane Newton: I, you know, when we met, uh, the date was, uh, May 27th, 2004.
• 1:36
  Donna Wolk: Yeah, I,
• 1:37
  Duane Newton: I
• 1:37
  Donna Wolk: it well,
• 1:38
  Duane Newton: I didn't know the date until I saw your cv and you had, uh, you had it on there when, uh, we passed our boards.
• 1:47
  Duane Newton: That was a, I was thinking about that.
• 1:49
  Duane Newton: Um, me and you and Jan Matthews Greer and Jim Dunn.
• 1:59
  Duane Newton: Is there anyone else that's part of the group?
• 2:01
  Donna Wolk: those are the four that I remember and sitting on the floor in the convention center, and going into the rooms together to be grilled by the, at that time, the key microbiologists in America.
• 2:14
  Donna Wolk: So, Yeah, fun times.
• 2:16
  Duane Newton: Yeah, it was.
• 2:18
  Duane Newton: I was also remembering.
• 2:21
  Duane Newton: Um, so that was in New Orleans and then, um, maybe about 10 years later, uh, we had the meeting in New Orleans again and I happened to be going to some kind of meeting or something, uh, in that same hotel.
• 2:37
  Duane Newton: And I had this deja vu flashback feeling, a traumatic experience of walking through.
• 2:42
  Duane Newton: I remember the carpet and the kind of the architecture in there.
• 2:46
  Duane Newton: It was, it was pretty fun.
• 2:47
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 2:48
  Duane Newton: Bonding through trauma.
• 2:50
  Donna Wolk: Yeah.
• 2:50
  Donna Wolk: I mean, I think I sat down on the floor after the letter and just cried, you know, of happiness.
• 2:56
  Donna Wolk: I,
• 2:57
  Duane Newton: It, it was, um, that was, you know, it was early in our careers too, and um, to.
• 3:08
  Donna Wolk: I'm a bit older than you, Duane.
• 3:09
  Donna Wolk: 'cause I went back to school later in life.
• 3:12
  Donna Wolk: So, um, it was early for my, doctoral career, but.
• 3:18
  Donna Wolk: You know, I had worked quite a bit as a medical lab scientist before, uh, I went back to school and got my PhD.
• 3:25
  Duane Newton: At, and you started at Penn State and
• 3:29
  Donna Wolk: undergrad.
• 3:30
  Duane Newton: you got your undergrad, and how long did you work as a, a bench technologist.
• 3:35
  Donna Wolk: Other shirt on.
• 3:37
  Donna Wolk: Today day
• 3:37
  Duane Newton: I see that.
• 3:42
  Duane Newton: How long did you work as a a, as a tech at the bench.
• 3:48
  Donna Wolk: I, I worked until 19, probably four or five years at, at the regular bench, uh, as a generalist and then microbiology.
• 4:02
  Donna Wolk: And then I got promoted to assistant supervisor of microbiology, supervisor of microbiology.
• 4:08
  Donna Wolk: at the time I was going back to school, I was offered the entire lab manager position.
• 4:15
  Donna Wolk: And so it was, um.
• 4:17
  Donna Wolk: It was a coming reckoning moment because I had to decide if I'm choosing science or administration full time now.
• 4:27
  Donna Wolk: The, you know, the science jobs have plenty of administrative roles and financial and strategy and analytics, but I still get my little feed of science, um, with the role that I have and am able to do scientific research, uh, to improve patient care.
• 4:44
  Donna Wolk: So, at the time I was a single mom and thinking of going back to school with a 4-year-old, uh, driving the U-Haul across America for a doctoral program where I was old enough to be some of the student's parent the program.
• 5:02
  Donna Wolk: Um, you know, that was sort of, uh, a big adventure for me.
• 5:06
  Donna Wolk: My first recreation, I guess, um, single mom through grad school, but, um.
• 5:13
  Donna Wolk: It all worked out.
• 5:14
  Donna Wolk: I did my postdoc at Mayo Clinic, worked in Arizona for several years, and, and then when the job I, I have now opened up, it was where I worked as a bench.
• 5:26
  Donna Wolk: scientist.
• 5:26
  Donna Wolk: So, you know, kind of coming back home,
• 5:29
  Duane Newton: Full circle.
• 5:30
  Donna Wolk: and uh, so full circle for me.
• 5:33
  Duane Newton: Yeah, that's, that's really, uh, an interesting story and I think that.
• 5:39
  Duane Newton: Um, one of the, the goals of being able to talk to you and others that have leadership roles in our field is, can get an appreciation for how, um, different everyone's path has been.
• 5:59
  Duane Newton: And, um, I'm really curious as to maybe some of the thought process that was going through your head at the time when you were, you know,
• 6:11
  Donna Wolk: Yeah, I
• 6:12
  Duane Newton: from the bench, you know, to, to just make those decisions, to, to do something different.
• 6:19
  Donna Wolk: I mean, it, it's gonna sound dramatic, um, when I say it, but, um, or maybe a little naive, um, if you will, but I had, uh, I was getting, um, I was a new single parent and, um, wanted to do something that would allow promotion from my, my role, but didn't want to, as I said, leave science behind me.
• 6:48
  Donna Wolk: so, uh, at that time, I already had my master's in health administration, so that was a track for me.
• 6:54
  Donna Wolk: But I wanted to, to stick with microbiology.
• 6:57
  Donna Wolk: And so, um.
• 6:59
  Donna Wolk: I literally woke up in the middle of the night and sat up in bed and sort of scared myself awake.
• 7:06
  Donna Wolk: And the, you know, I, my thought was the only thing you know how to do well is microbiology, so just do it and keep doing it.
• 7:15
  Donna Wolk: And so then I applied to, uh, graduate schools across the country.
• 7:19
  Donna Wolk: I applied to med school at the time, but, um, I was a returning an older student and my medical school interviews were like a little bit, uh, I don't, I can't see me as the grandmother in this group.
• 7:35
  Donna Wolk: And, um, you know, I really just did love microbiology, so I sort of gave up the clinical pathology notion to just do microbiology.
• 7:45
  Donna Wolk: And, um, I had, um.
• 7:48
  Donna Wolk: After I had my daughter, I was moving an in incubator and popped a disc in my back.
• 7:54
  Donna Wolk: Um, and so I had, uh, pretty terrible pain, uh, during the early years of her life, and I had been to an ASM meeting.
• 8:04
  Donna Wolk: In, um, Las Vegas, I think at that time.
• 8:08
  Donna Wolk: I noticed that I didn't have any pain when I was in the desert.
• 8:11
  Donna Wolk: And I thought, that's weird because I had so much pain when I left Pennsylvania.
• 8:16
  Donna Wolk: um, so then I took a vacation out to Arizona to see if this whole thing was real and same thing.
• 8:26
  Donna Wolk: then that kind of led me towards my degree at the University of Arizona
• 8:29
  Duane Newton: Wow.
• 8:30
  Donna Wolk: because I was pain free and I, I went from being a single parent laying on the floor with my daughter, playing after work on the floor with her'cause she was young to out coaching her soccer teams and having a vibrant, healthy life there.
• 8:46
  Donna Wolk: Um, so, uh, Tucson, Arizona healed me in many, many ways, and that's one of them.
• 8:53
  Duane Newton: Wow.
• 8:53
  Duane Newton: That, uh, that is incredible.
• 8:57
  Duane Newton: That is sort of this health and wellness, um, quality of life kind of issue that was a decision maker for you in that.
• 9:09
  Donna Wolk: My surgeon told me that, um, the nerves would heal over time, but it would take a very long time.
• 9:18
  Donna Wolk: And so, um, when I talked to him afterwards, he said, you know, you're just a little, always dehydrated in the desert and that takes the pressure off of it.
• 9:28
  Donna Wolk: And it was true for many, many years.
• 9:30
  Donna Wolk: Um, I would come home to pe, I would have pain, I would go to Arizona, no pain.
• 9:36
  Donna Wolk: And even when I went to Mayo Clinic, um, that was my first trip four years later in a cold climate.
• 9:43
  Donna Wolk: I had a little bit of pain there.
• 9:45
  Donna Wolk: Um, once I got rid of the high heel shoes though, I was okay.
• 9:49
  Donna Wolk: And from then on I've been, I've been fine.
• 9:52
  Donna Wolk: So yeah, it's funny how life pushes you in one direction or another.
• 9:58
  Donna Wolk: I never was a person who saw myself.
• 10:00
  Donna Wolk: As a doctoral person, I was happy to get out of medical technology school, get a job, really understand why people would go back to school.
• 10:10
  Donna Wolk: I was first generation, um, for my family, didn't really have a big worldview.
• 10:18
  Donna Wolk: And going from that to being someone who's been in almost every state speaking about microbiology, uh, multiple countries and continents, speaking about microbiology, um, you know, it, it's just a privilege to, to be able to have done that from my little town in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania, um, to, to meeting so many amazing and passionate microbiologists around the world and having those relationships and seeing the young people and their passion as they kind of take over the reigns.
• 10:56
  Donna Wolk: Having met some of.
• 10:58
  Donna Wolk: The elder, um, icons of microbiology during my career where, you know, you kind of wanna ask for their, um, autograph when you see them on the escalator to, um, you know, being lucky enough to be mentored or have a conversation with folks like that.
• 11:16
  Donna Wolk: It, it's, it's been a career, um, of a lifetime for me.
• 11:21
  Donna Wolk: And as I look towards succession planning and actual retirement someday in, in the future, you know, there's a lot of reflection, um, that just kind of keep going.
• 11:33
  Donna Wolk: You, you do what you love, what you do, you keep going.
• 11:36
  Donna Wolk: And, you know, I think me, I always tell people I, I kind of.
• 11:43
  Donna Wolk: I plan five to 10, 10 years ahead in my mind and do backward design.
• 11:48
  Donna Wolk: How do I get there?
• 11:49
  Donna Wolk: And now my five to 10 years is retirement, and what do I, uh, how do I get myself there?
• 11:56
  Donna Wolk: But also the people in the succession plan and the, the fa the, the people that I work with in the laboratory who, you know, are, are very close to all of us.
• 12:06
  Donna Wolk: And, um, lots of different, I feel like I'm standing on the page of the next chapter and, you know, I've just gotta jump off that edge and, and make that.
• 12:17
  Donna Wolk: plan.
• 12:19
  Duane Newton: I wanna go back to the time.
• 12:23
  Duane Newton: You when you were then, you know, starting to get more focused into clinical micro and you've got your PhD and you spent your time in Arizona.
• 12:32
  Duane Newton: Was there anything, um, as dramatic as, you know, you're healing your back that had an impact on your, um, your, uh, decision and selection to go into Mayo?
• 12:48
  Donna Wolk: Oh, well that was, um, you know, at that time, um.
• 12:53
  Donna Wolk: I'm a country kid.
• 12:55
  Donna Wolk: I afraid to be in a small city like Tucson when I first moved there and, and adapted.
• 13:02
  Donna Wolk: It's, it's like a big small town.
• 13:03
  Donna Wolk: It's a great place to live and it, and, and heal with
• 13:07
  Duane Newton: Hmm.
• 13:08
  Donna Wolk: you know, the dry air and the desert, uh, and the people, uh, that were very welcoming me.
• 13:13
  Donna Wolk: I think, um, maybe not as, uh, dramatic, but certainly, uh, imp a cr a pivotal moment for me, um, was when I was in, in grad school and I was, was in the process of applying for postdoc fellowship.
• 13:32
  Donna Wolk: There were only two in the country at that time um, I worked in the same building as Beth Marlowe and we were talking about this and she's like, said to me, tell me more.
• 13:43
  Donna Wolk: And so.
• 13:45
  Donna Wolk: You know, I applied to Mayo, she applied to UCLA.
• 13:49
  Donna Wolk: Um, I was not a city person, so I did not apply to UCLA if Mayo hadn't taken me, I'm not exactly sure what I would've done.
• 13:58
  Donna Wolk: But I was lucky enough to get accepted into their program.
• 14:02
  Donna Wolk: the, the thing at the time was funny because I worked on the second floor, she worked on the third floor, and the both of us were the two ABMM or CPEP Fellows that year.
• 14:14
  Donna Wolk: And we've, we've been close, you know, ever since.
• 14:17
  Donna Wolk: Um, the thing that struck me in graduate school, as, as a, you know, sort of a, a more mature person, um, and being in classes with people a decade or more younger than, than me.
• 14:33
  Donna Wolk: And kind of seeing it from a different perspective than my undergraduate, kind of memorize your way through classes.
• 14:40
  Donna Wolk: And so the problem solving and the observation of what I was seeing in academia at the time, I was at a national conference in Hawaii when I had this sort of revelation.
• 14:52
  Donna Wolk: Um, and I hope it rings true to many people, but it, it, it does have a, twist, I guess.
• 15:01
  Donna Wolk: And you remember this was sort of the late nineties, um, the, I was up all night preparing my PowerPoint presentation for the next day at the scientific meeting with the, the hotel room open and the waves crashing on the rocks that I could hear them.
• 15:20
  Donna Wolk: I mean, it was beautiful, but I didn't sleep all night.
• 15:23
  Donna Wolk: I had breakfast with my, uh, one of my mentors the next morning and his wife and I am.
• 15:30
  Donna Wolk: C fully caffeinated at the breakfast, just worried about my talk, the first international talk I'm given and, and the award speech and all of that.
• 15:40
  Donna Wolk: And, uh, you know, we were talking about it being busy and lovely and all that.
• 15:45
  Donna Wolk: And, and the person said to me, oh yeah, I was, I was up early to ironing all of his clothes and it, and actually ironing his underwear.
• 16:01
  Donna Wolk: And so I thought to myself, wow, I need a strategy here because don't have somebody to pack my bag to iron my clothes to.
• 16:15
  Donna Wolk: You know, I was still a single mom and doing all of that.
• 16:18
  Donna Wolk: And I'm like, if you, myself, if you wanna survive in this career, you better figure some shortcuts out.
• 16:26
  Donna Wolk: You know, you better, um.
• 16:28
  Donna Wolk: Figure out what you can give up, what needs to say, what's, what's critically important to you and what you can let go of, because you will never survive if, if you don't, you know, think through those things.
• 16:43
  Donna Wolk: Now, I always had a really good friend and family support system, everybody.
• 16:48
  Donna Wolk: I'm very blessed.
• 16:50
  Donna Wolk: just the day-to-day grind of our jobs and, and as we go through our careers are very demanding.
• 16:57
  Donna Wolk: And, and sometimes behind the scenes, like, you know, medical laboratory doesn't always get hoopla or the resources from organizations.
• 17:08
  Donna Wolk: You have to continually, um, work towards that.
• 17:13
  Donna Wolk: And, and that moment at that breakfast had.
• 17:18
  Donna Wolk: Started my path to thinking five, 10 years ahead.
• 17:22
  Donna Wolk: Okay.
• 17:22
  Donna Wolk: I'm not gonna have the resources of anatomic pathology or chemistry even, or hematology.
• 17:29
  Donna Wolk: I mean, microbiology revenue is small and the, but the impact downstream is large.
• 17:37
  Donna Wolk: So I began sort of planning, well, how can I research money?
• 17:43
  Donna Wolk: What kind of samples do I have?
• 17:44
  Donna Wolk: What can I do?
• 17:46
  Donna Wolk: I took, and when I got my first job, I just took myself to meetings and, cold called vendors and people with funding around the campus and met some amazing people and got on some, you know, uh, grants with people at the university and learned and took extra research courses to be able to chart my path in a way that I could fend for myself a little bit better.
• 18:13
  Donna Wolk: And for the microbiology labs.
• 18:14
  Donna Wolk: So, you know, some people go into that.
• 18:18
  Donna Wolk: Their whole career by design or by default.
• 18:23
  Donna Wolk: I think mine was by design.
• 18:24
  Donna Wolk: How do I survive?
• 18:26
  Donna Wolk: How do I, uh, do my job well I have more limited support than maybe some other people, when the microbiology biology not the biggest part of the laboratory and how do I make that happen?
• 18:42
  Donna Wolk: And, and lo and behold, I just talked to so many people that some people took me up on my ability to, to do that and lead a research team, which I had never done before.
• 18:54
  Donna Wolk: then I, I, I ask and ask the Bio five Institute, which was our new translational research Institute, there.
• 19:04
  Donna Wolk: Five different times I had to go and, you know, kind of beg like, look, I know I can bring in money.
• 19:09
  Donna Wolk: Like, will you bring me into the Bio five Institute?
• 19:12
  Donna Wolk: It would help the infrastructure.
• 19:14
  Donna Wolk: And finally they, I think they just got sick of me asking and said, well, we'll give you a little office in a bench.
• 19:21
  Donna Wolk: And, and that's really how I grew the clinical trial team, which is useful if you have to try to decide what instrument you wanna buy for your laboratory.
• 19:33
  Donna Wolk: And took data courses and research courses, um, in the College of Public Health and became a translational research scholar at the University of Arizona because a PhD.
• 19:45
  Donna Wolk: wet lab doesn't teach you how to do clinical medicine research.
• 19:50
  Donna Wolk: You know, you need epidemiology or biostatistics and methodology and things that I didn't have.
• 19:57
  Donna Wolk: So I got a research certificate and joined that community who was very supportive of me and then kind of that concept here to where I am today.
• 20:09
  Donna Wolk: So, I mean, all of those things were really about survival.
• 20:17
  Donna Wolk: the part that I didn't tell about the, you know, the awakening of you, I only know how to do microbiology, was, you know, I wanna pave the way for a life that's gonna be for my daughter.
• 20:29
  Donna Wolk: Um, make sure that she can do teams and things that she needs on one salary.
• 20:36
  Donna Wolk: Um.
• 20:37
  Donna Wolk: But above and beyond that, like I knew I, some somewhere in me, I thought I could do it.
• 20:42
  Donna Wolk: And getting the PhD was never the real goal for me.
• 20:46
  Donna Wolk: Although once I got there and my brain sort of settled into that, I mean, I love it.
• 20:54
  Donna Wolk: It's, there's nothing else in the world I'd rather do, but I really made the decision to do it, not to become something or someone, or somebody or some role, but, you know, to really make sure that I and my family could, um, survive.
• 21:15
  Donna Wolk: So
• 21:15
  Duane Newton: You had that,
• 21:16
  Donna Wolk: of a, a weird, uh, story, I guess maybe to admit.
• 21:20
  Donna Wolk: But, I never really planned on this, but I'm, I feel awfully lucky.
• 21:27
  Duane Newton: the, the, um, the story that you told from the meeting in Hawaii that you were, um, a fellow at the time.
• 21:36
  Donna Wolk: No, I was a, a PhD student.
• 21:38
  Duane Newton: You're a PhD student
• 21:40
  Donna Wolk: Yeah.
• 21:40
  Duane Newton: and so then, uh, Mayo Clinic for your fellowship and then back to Arizona to run the clinical lab at the hospital there
• 21:51
  Donna Wolk: Yeah.
• 21:51
  Duane Newton: and then onto Geisinger.
• 21:54
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 21:56
  Donna Wolk: Uh, you know, the, the, and the thing, you know, obviously there are many people to admire, um, in all the places I'm at, but at Mayo Clinic, um, Dr.
• 22:05
  Donna Wolk: Glenn Roberts and.
• 22:07
  Donna Wolk: Uh, John Rosenblatt, uh, were people that I communicated with quite a bit, and I, uh, you know, there's just these phrases that stick with you and you, you feel like it's a life changing moment, but you don't know what the future will bring.
• 22:21
  Donna Wolk: And all had to cancel rounds one day to go to an ethics class.
• 22:26
  Donna Wolk: And John Rosenblatt said to all of us, what do you mean I'll give you your class, do the right thing.
• 22:33
  Donna Wolk: And I'm like, you're right.
• 22:35
  Donna Wolk: I, I li his voice is in my head for my entire career, just from that one moment in time.
• 22:41
  Donna Wolk: So, know, as, as younger folks in the, in the profession asked me like, what kind of lessons do you have?
• 22:48
  Donna Wolk: Um, or wisdom, like, I really don't have, uh, you know, inherent wisdom, I paid attention.
• 23:00
  Donna Wolk: I learned what I could from whoever I could.
• 23:02
  Donna Wolk: And, and there's certain things that will stick with you.
• 23:05
  Donna Wolk: And I would say, you know, start out your career and you think it's going to last a really long time, you know, oh my gosh, I have to work till I'm, whatever.
• 23:16
  Donna Wolk: But it's really, um, maybe trite to say, but you blink and your, your role changes from striving to mentoring, from grinding, you know, towards a goal to supporting infrastructure and succession plans.
• 23:34
  Donna Wolk: And, you know, you, you just have to pay attention at every step, or you miss it, you miss the boat and you're done, you know.
• 23:42
  Duane Newton: I think you're, um, not giving yourself enough credit for your wisdom, because I think it takes a lot of wisdom to pay attention and to, you know, know the difference between what's right and what's wrong and figure that out, you know, and it, when to go back to as well to some of the, the things that you, you were talking about, you know, it is almost like, um, there were some gut feelings that were directing you and driving you and to certain directions.
• 24:18
  Duane Newton: Is that, um.
• 24:20
  Duane Newton: Is that something, those, you know, your intuition and that sense of self was, was that always, you know, was that a part of your, your essence, your personality?
• 24:38
  Duane Newton: Or is that something that, um, you know, did you always trust that?
• 24:41
  Duane Newton: Or is it something that it took a while over time to, um, to, to develop?
• 24:48
  Donna Wolk: I, I kind of did, I mean, uh, was a child of the sixties and seventies, you know, I'm getting a little long in the tooth.
• 24:58
  Donna Wolk: But, um, I've always liked to read, um, philosophy and, and, um, things that aren't in the science realm.
• 25:08
  Donna Wolk: I, I have a col, a, a notebook of quotes that inspire me, um, that I've kept since high school that remind me to be, become the best person.
• 25:23
  Donna Wolk: I can be and to leave the, the world a little bit scooch better than I found it.
• 25:31
  Donna Wolk: I don't have any aspirations of grandeur.
• 25:33
  Donna Wolk: I mean, when, I think the most important thing is not to be too full of yourself, not to think you're so important that people can not get along with without your presence because they will.
• 25:48
  Donna Wolk: I mean, the day you're gone is you're gone and people will remember you fondly, perhaps, but you can't ball up what you do with who you are.
• 25:58
  Donna Wolk: And so I always had these little quotes in mind.
• 26:01
  Donna Wolk: I think one of the most challenges part of of my career was single parenting and graduate school.
• 26:07
  Donna Wolk: And, uh, I had what I would call my refrigerator of inspiration, um, in the nineties, you know, you could buy all those little refrigerator magnets with all those cool sayings, and I would just, it was filled with things that I had to remind myself.
• 26:23
  Donna Wolk: And, you know, when people would come to the, we always had a lot of people in our house, kids, people, um, you know, as a single parent, a family, we had a big picture in our hallway.
• 26:35
  Donna Wolk: A family is a circle of friends who love you.
• 26:38
  Donna Wolk: Um, people would be like, what's with the refrigerator, Donna?
• 26:43
  Donna Wolk: And I'm like, they're, they're my reminders, you know?
• 26:47
  Donna Wolk: So I, I evolved to the time in my life where there's not one on my refrigerator at home, but I do have things around my office that me back to humility, um, humbleness, um, service.
• 27:05
  Donna Wolk: Um.
• 27:06
  Donna Wolk: And, and treating people with mutual respect.
• 27:09
  Donna Wolk: Not that I have to remind myself that, but you know, is hard sometimes.
• 27:16
  Donna Wolk: Um, especially, you know, as, I don't wanna cry, play the woman card, but, you know, the, there are different rules that, you know, you kind of have to deal with.
• 27:28
  Donna Wolk: And, um, I've worked with a lot of different people in my life.
• 27:32
  Donna Wolk: Um, one example is I worked for, um, a man who was proud to tell us all that he was a narcissist that he was studied in medical schools because he was so far on the extreme narcissist scale.
• 27:52
  Donna Wolk: And so, you know, just sort of seeing those things and, and wanting to be what, you know, what are you saying right now?
• 28:02
  Donna Wolk: And, and kind of.
• 28:04
  Donna Wolk: Gut checking your own reality, but still treating that person with mutual respect, even though maybe your thoughts don't align.
• 28:13
  Donna Wolk: I mean, I think that is one of the hardest things, but one of the blessings of going through that journey learning how to interact with many, many people and finding with the core of service and patient care in mind.
• 28:30
  Donna Wolk: I mean, the negotiation skills, the, you know, the strategy skills.
• 28:37
  Donna Wolk: They don't teach you that in grad school.
• 28:39
  Donna Wolk: They,
• 28:39
  Duane Newton: Safe.
• 28:39
  Donna Wolk: teach you that in any school.
• 28:41
  Donna Wolk: I mean, I'm, I constantly read, uh, leadership books, psychology books, statistical books, microbiology books the point where my sister says, I want your Christmas list, but I'm not buying you another damn microbiology book.
• 28:57
  Donna Wolk: No more germ books.
• 28:58
  Donna Wolk: You know, you can't have any more, um.
• 29:01
  Donna Wolk: So I think that also finding lifelong learners, again, I've, I've met amazing people, um, but, and I've met people that to their spot and that's where they are.
• 29:16
  Donna Wolk: And they're, they don't find joy in learning.
• 29:19
  Donna Wolk: And so, or doing the things that, you know, are, are similar to what I find joyful and rewarding.
• 29:28
  Donna Wolk: And so you sort of have to find your tribe, I think, and, um, while you find your tribe.
• 29:35
  Donna Wolk: And that's a comfort.
• 29:36
  Donna Wolk: You also have to take personal responsibility to deal with others who are not aligned in heart, soul, spirit, and continue to try to care for patients outside that innate, uh, gut reaction.
• 29:56
  Donna Wolk: I think one of the hardest things is to keep.
• 30:01
  Donna Wolk: All of that in mind, able to weigh your words and make your case, and strategize and negotiate to things.
• 30:10
  Donna Wolk: Um, and, and that's a struggle that never ends.
• 30:13
  Donna Wolk: It's, you know, and, and you get to the part where you think you're making progress, and then you come across someone who pushes your buttons and you've gotta start all over again with that kind of personality.
• 30:26
  Donna Wolk: So looking back, I mean, I just, there's so many opportunities to learn to find your way in the world.
• 30:36
  Donna Wolk: And, and just enjoy them.
• 30:38
  Donna Wolk: I, I would, I say to people, just enjoy it.
• 30:41
  Donna Wolk: Enjoy the journey.
• 30:42
  Donna Wolk: You know, I have a sign on my door that says, not to spoil the ending, but it's all gonna turn out okay.
• 30:49
  Donna Wolk: I walk past that every day.
• 30:51
  Donna Wolk: And that is my mantra.
• 30:53
  Donna Wolk: I've gotta go be Dr.
• 30:54
  Donna Wolk: Wolk today.
• 30:55
  Donna Wolk: I walk in every day thinking it's gonna be a day.
• 31:00
  Donna Wolk: Can I, you know, you gotta go be you today, but you at work.
• 31:05
  Donna Wolk: The me at work is not, not me.
• 31:07
  Donna Wolk: Some, my friends know me, my family knows me.
• 31:10
  Donna Wolk: It is the role that I play.
• 31:13
  Donna Wolk: And, um, I do that in a genuine, as genuine a fashion as I can, knowing I have to do things that are uncomfortable for me.
• 31:22
  Donna Wolk: this, this podcast thing.
• 31:25
  Donna Wolk: it, it's uncomfortable, but I think it's important to, to have a shared story that people coming up.
• 31:34
  Donna Wolk: the ranks can say, so and so she was scared too.
• 31:39
  Donna Wolk: Okay.
• 31:40
  Donna Wolk: You know, maybe I'm not, you know, maybe that's not so odd.
• 31:45
  Donna Wolk: So I, I kind of feel like that's part of my responsibility right now is to do things and, and applaud your vision to kind of have this stuff happen.
• 31:55
  Donna Wolk: I mean, it's really not common in the lab to have somebody be, aware of this like you are and wanting to help and mentor people like you are.
• 32:07
  Donna Wolk: So, uh, kudos to you.
• 32:09
  Duane Newton: Well, thanks for that.
• 32:10
  Duane Newton: I, uh, I appreciate it that I think, you know, similar to you.
• 32:16
  Duane Newton: Um.
• 32:18
  Duane Newton: You finding your tribe of people that kind of, you know, have, have the same kind of philosophical approach to life and, and the awareness of what's important, um, and how to navigate through that.
• 32:39
  Duane Newton: You know, the challenges that come up every day, and I think that those.
• 32:45
  Duane Newton: That's why I've done it is because there are people that value that and there are people that wanna learn about that more.
• 32:54
  Duane Newton: And, um, you know, I think what, what you've been talking about is, is perfect as far as all those things that we didn't learn in school.
• 33:05
  Duane Newton: And all the, we, you know, we had a, a tremendous technical and clinical training experience, scientific research, training experience.
• 33:15
  Duane Newton: Um, but you know, how, how we navigate our, you know, our daily interactions and dealing with, you know, the self-proclaimed narcissist, who's proud of that title and, um, and all the other difficult challenges is, is something that, you know, is really, um, it's really hard to figure out.
• 33:37
  Duane Newton: And it sounds like, um, a lot of how you.
• 33:44
  Duane Newton: Have approached things was based on your personal interest and mission and desire to continue to learn and grow and, and show up as the best person you could be.
• 33:57
  Duane Newton: You know?
• 33:57
  Duane Newton: So is was that, uh, was that an internally driven force or did you have role models that you, you saw their approach to things that you said, yeah, that's, I want to do it that way too.
• 34:13
  Duane Newton: Or a combination or what, what was influencing that?
• 34:16
  Donna Wolk: Um.
• 34:17
  Donna Wolk: You know, for me, my grandfather had miner's asthma and was in the hospital a lot when I was young, and I saw the value of nurses and doctors and, um, didn't even know about laboratory at that time.
• 34:31
  Donna Wolk: Um, and his wife, my grandmother, um, was a very, uh, strong and giving and capable person, and I was looked up to her.
• 34:45
  Donna Wolk: um, like she used to, uh, much like, um, some of the other women around here that weren't working in the mines and things like that, they would drive trucks to get people from the rural communities to the city to work in the factories and things like that.
• 35:04
  Donna Wolk: And, you know, my grandmother always did those kind of things.
• 35:08
  Donna Wolk: So, you know, we always grew up thinking that, you know, women, men, you know.
• 35:17
  Donna Wolk: There's a lot of differences among us, but, but we, we could find a way to serve.
• 35:23
  Donna Wolk: uh, so that, you know, that came from my parents and my grandparents, um, about that.
• 35:30
  Donna Wolk: But I, I think that, um, besides that, you know, I didn't plan on science either.
• 35:38
  Donna Wolk: I mean, I was in advanced science in high school, but applied to college as an elementary teacher.
• 35:44
  Donna Wolk: I would've been horrible at that.
• 35:46
  Donna Wolk: Um, I love kids, but you know, the teaching and the rigor and I mean, I don't know.
• 35:53
  Donna Wolk: I just, I would've been terrible at that.
• 35:55
  Donna Wolk: Or my other one was music.
• 35:58
  Donna Wolk: I was, uh, the drum major at in high school and thought, oh, let's do music.
• 36:03
  Donna Wolk: And the other one was, um.
• 36:08
  Donna Wolk: Uh, phys ed because, you know, back in my younger days I did all the sports and, um, was, was fairly successful at those.
• 36:17
  Donna Wolk: And, and then I, right before I started college, I thought, you know, what's I, flipped through a book of careers is what I did.
• 36:28
  Donna Wolk: I went to the guidance counselor and said, you know, hey, I like science, but I didn't know you could help people with it like this and healthcare.
• 36:36
  Donna Wolk: And then that's how I got into the medical technology program at, at Penn State.
• 36:40
  Donna Wolk: Um, but I was literally flipping through chapters of different careers and what they were, because again, like I was first gen college, so there was nobody, it was heresy that a girl would go to college at that time where I grew up.
• 36:55
  Donna Wolk: So, you know, my parents were, were very understanding and supported me there, but I.
• 37:01
  Donna Wolk: I the only one in the town that was moving away after high school.
• 37:05
  Donna Wolk: And so it was a different time.
• 37:07
  Donna Wolk: Um, my family was very supportive and my grandmother, I always looked up to her for the kind of things that she did.
• 37:14
  Donna Wolk: So that's, that's kind of how I got into lab medicine or medical technology.
• 37:19
  Donna Wolk: And then Penn State had to be a med tech that was part of the microbiology degree.
• 37:24
  Donna Wolk: So, I had a lot of courses in that?
• 37:28
  Donna Wolk: and, and kind of fell in love with that then, and learned about infectious diseases.
• 37:32
  Donna Wolk: And I remember Phil Moore, um, was my med tech instructor, instructor or, or sponsor mentor at Penn State.
• 37:41
  Donna Wolk: And then he was one of the driving forces to, when I was thinking of going to get my PhD and, and or medical school like pro and conning those out.
• 37:52
  Donna Wolk: Um.
• 37:53
  Donna Wolk: was very helpful, uh, to me and kind of helped me, uh, through those thought processes about careers as a PhD versus an md
• 38:04
  Duane Newton: Uh, having people like that is really impactful.
• 38:12
  Donna Wolk: for sure.
• 38:12
  Duane Newton: The, um, and it's interesting to hear you talk about how, um, not only as a woman, just as from where you grew up, how outside the box that in your path has been.
• 38:37
  Duane Newton: Um, but it found, it sounds like you, you, there was always support for that along the way, emotional support that even though you were kind of going your own path, that, that,
• 38:53
  Donna Wolk: I
• 38:53
  Duane Newton: you know, was that true?
• 38:55
  Duane Newton: Well, yeah.
• 38:56
  Donna Wolk: from, but absolutely, it, it was, and I'll, I'll tell you this, the blue collar story, um, you'll indulge me for a moment, but, um, know, I, again, I didn't know that there were certain schools.
• 39:12
  Donna Wolk: I mean, I knew Harvard and MIT, that they were like elite schools.
• 39:17
  Donna Wolk: My family didn't have the money for anything but a state school.
• 39:20
  Donna Wolk: I never aspired to be anything more than a bachelor's degree in my life.
• 39:25
  Donna Wolk: But, um, when I finally did get my first job and, uh, I was working, um.
• 39:32
  Donna Wolk: Bringing up a molecular pathology, genetic pathology program in partnership with my pathology colleagues.
• 39:39
  Donna Wolk: And it, it, at the time, it, there were only like 10 or 11 in the country.
• 39:43
  Donna Wolk: And, where I worked wasn't a big powerhouse for molecular diagnostics.
• 39:49
  Donna Wolk: Um, on the clinical side, it was on the research side.
• 39:53
  Donna Wolk: And, um, I was assigned to bring This program up
• 39:57
  Duane Newton: This is at Arizona.
• 39:58
  Donna Wolk: I went to, yeah, I went to the boss at the time and, and said, and, and got commitments for funding for different parts of this program.
• 40:09
  Donna Wolk: And then I, I met with him and, he was talking all around the block and I was in there with the two other female, um, leads, uh, uh, at the university.
• 40:21
  Donna Wolk: And I said, you know, I don't, I don't mean to be rude, but I'm getting the feeling you have no intention to fund this program like you said You would.
• 40:31
  Donna Wolk: And he's like.
• 40:32
  Donna Wolk: Like, you're right.
• 40:34
  Donna Wolk: I'm not going to.
• 40:35
  Donna Wolk: I'm like, okay, well, you know, thank you for your time.
• 40:38
  Donna Wolk: And they're like, I can't believe you ask them that.
• 40:41
  Donna Wolk: I'm like, wait, it's my first job.
• 40:43
  Donna Wolk: What am I gonna do?
• 40:44
  Donna Wolk: I had to decide, do I pretend I never got this job to create this for the organization or?
• 40:51
  Donna Wolk: do I figure it out?
• 40:52
  Donna Wolk: And I think, you know, that's sort of part of my blue collar upbringing, So to speak.
• 40:58
  Donna Wolk: I didn't recognize that at the time.
• 41:01
  Donna Wolk: I went back to the same guy and said, okay, I've got the 12th molecular genetic pro uh, pathology program in the country.
• 41:10
  Donna Wolk: We're recruiting people from good schools to come here.
• 41:15
  Donna Wolk: I wanna start a research program.
• 41:17
  Donna Wolk: And he said,
• 41:18
  Duane Newton: this is after you've done all the work, you've done all the, the work, you've gotten the funding, you've created this thing without his help,
• 41:26
  Donna Wolk: Yeah,
• 41:27
  Duane Newton: and now you, you go to him again.
• 41:29
  Donna Wolk: Yeah.
• 41:29
  Duane Newton: how many years later was that?
• 41:31
  Donna Wolk: he said to me, do you remember when I told you that I didn't think you could do the molecular program?
• 41:38
  Donna Wolk: Because all of my Harvard and MIT people been trying to bring this program online for years and couldn't get it done.
• 41:45
  Donna Wolk: And I told you, you know, you come from a blue collar school in a blue collar state.
• 41:50
  Donna Wolk: I, I highly doubt you're gonna be able to pull this off.
• 41:53
  Donna Wolk: And I said, yeah, I remember.
• 41:55
  Donna Wolk: I mean, that's exactly what motivated me to pull it off.
• 41:59
  Donna Wolk: And he goes, well, give you the same answer.
• 42:02
  Donna Wolk: You come from a blue collar school.
• 42:04
  Donna Wolk: You don't have any real research background.
• 42:06
  Donna Wolk: You, you have Penn State and the University of Arizona as your degrees.
• 42:12
  Donna Wolk: Okay?
• 42:12
  Donna Wolk: You have a pseudo Ivy League Master's in Health Administration.
• 42:17
  Donna Wolk: Um, but no, I'm not gonna support you at all and give you research space.
• 42:24
  Donna Wolk: I'm not gonna give you research money to get started.
• 42:28
  Donna Wolk: And so that really, I said, well, you told me that once before, so kind of proud of my blue collar, uh, scrappiness and know, maybe you better re start rethinking that line of thought about me.
• 42:43
  Donna Wolk: And he kind of, he'd always turn his head funny and he'd go, perhaps.
• 42:49
  Donna Wolk: And so he didn't stop me.
• 42:52
  Donna Wolk: I wasn't, I didn't, I wasn't supported.
• 42:53
  Donna Wolk: But to me.
• 42:56
  Donna Wolk: I don't, you cannot expect support in your career.
• 42:59
  Donna Wolk: You just can't.
• 43:00
  Donna Wolk: That's not how the world works.
• 43:02
  Donna Wolk: Um, I had a lot of people give me good lessons and kind of watch out for me, uh, but not a solid like mentor.
• 43:12
  Donna Wolk: I didn't even know what mentorship was till I was outta grad school.
• 43:16
  Donna Wolk: Um, although I did have people who helped me and mentor me, but didn't meet with them regularly, maybe once a year or things like that.
• 43:25
  Donna Wolk: Um, a lot of really great people day to day interactions though, but I ne everybody's like, oh, you should ask somebody to be your mentor.
• 43:34
  Donna Wolk: I'm like, what?
• 43:35
  Donna Wolk: They're busy.
• 43:36
  Donna Wolk: They don't, you know, I, I didn't know how to do that.
• 43:39
  Donna Wolk: So, um, I think because I didn't have any.
• 43:44
  Donna Wolk: Formal structure, that scrappiness and that?
• 43:47
  Donna Wolk: do it yourself kind of thing, was good.
• 43:51
  Donna Wolk: And it's good until it isn't, because then you have to learn how to ask for help and do it the right way
• 43:58
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 43:58
  Donna Wolk: of people together that have skills that are different from yours.
• 44:01
  Donna Wolk: So lots of evolution, lots of mistakes in my life.
• 44:05
  Donna Wolk: Lots of things worked out and didn't work out, I guess I'd say.
• 44:11
  Donna Wolk: I don't really have big regrets.
• 44:13
  Donna Wolk: Um, but lots of mistakes for sure.
• 44:18
  Duane Newton: Well, the, I mean, I don't think you've described anything so far that's been a mistake.
• 44:24
  Duane Newton: I think, you know, there's a lot of learning experiences that have come from that and the, you know, Ida,
• 44:31
  Donna Wolk: are.
• 44:31
  Donna Wolk: Duane.
• 44:32
  Duane Newton: What's that?
• 44:33
  Donna Wolk: That's what mistakes are.
• 44:34
  Duane Newton: Right?
• 44:35
  Duane Newton: That's right, that's right.
• 44:37
  Duane Newton: The, um, the, you, you said, uh, a couple things that, uh, I have similar experience with.
• 44:47
  Duane Newton: You know, I think one is.
• 44:50
  Duane Newton: Uh, the way I've uh, said it, and I learned it early in my research postdoc, um, is the only one that actually cares about me is me.
• 44:59
  Duane Newton: And, you know, had similar, the, the details are different, but similar kind of, you know, funding is not gonna be provided for you in anymore and you gotta figure out your own way through this.
• 45:15
  Duane Newton: And, um, you know, and just from a, it was a political decision, it had nothing to do with me or,
• 45:24
  Donna Wolk: Yeah,
• 45:24
  Duane Newton: you know, what I was contributing, you know, so that was a, a, you know, within the first semester of my, you know, the first six months of my research postdoc, I had that experience.
• 45:36
  Duane Newton: And, um, and that, um, was a re
• 45:42
  Donna Wolk: into clinical
• 45:43
  Duane Newton: um, I think it ev eventually it did because, you know, I saw kind of how the.
• 45:50
  Duane Newton: The whole world of basic science operated.
• 45:53
  Duane Newton: And, um, that wasn't, it wasn't aligned with who I was as a person, but I didn't realize I couldn't describe it in that way at the time.
• 46:03
  Duane Newton: Um, and I, I also like fast forward to in being, being the boss and being in charge and, you know, having a regular job and all that kind of stuff.
• 46:17
  Duane Newton: And, um, you quickly realize that there aren't people that are in, uh, in your life or in your environment that are interested in looking out for you or mentoring you or helping guide you and not, not the way that, you know, we had kind of built in mentors during our training, um, our training lives.
• 46:38
  Duane Newton: And, and so that whole, that part of the, our experiences is very sim or have been similar in that you get to that point.
• 46:49
  Duane Newton: You have to figure, you feel like you have to figure out things on your own.
• 46:54
  Duane Newton: Um, and similarly, you know, the third part of it is you get to a point where, um, you realize you can't figure it out on your own.
• 47:03
  Duane Newton: You don't have the, the brain power, the, the expertise, the perspective, whatever it is necessary.
• 47:13
  Duane Newton: And you have to be comfortable, um, reaching out to others and, and finding others that can help you, building teams, you know, whatever, whatever shape it takes.
• 47:25
  Duane Newton: So I think those are really, um, those are all really important lessons and I, it's very, it's a very sin, you know, the no one is looking out for you except for you is a very cynical view of life.
• 47:38
  Duane Newton: Um, and I think.
• 47:41
  Duane Newton: Um, that's another reason why, you know, creating the space that, that I have and, and doing that podcast and all the other things that, um, have going on around coaching and professional development is because I wanna show people that there, there actually are people that care about you.
• 48:03
  Duane Newton: And you know, I, I know that your part of your legacy is.
• 48:09
  Duane Newton: Is that same kind of philosophy and you know, the approach that you've taken and the people that you've mentored and the impact that you've had on individuals, much less, you know, populations of people, I think, is that, is that similar kind of thing that, you know, there are people that care.
• 48:28
  Duane Newton: I am one of those people that care, you know, you are one of those people that care.
• 48:32
  Duane Newton: And we need more people like that in our lives, uh, in our communities, in our country.
• 48:39
  Duane Newton: That, uh,'cause that's how you, that's how you make the world a better place.
• 48:44
  Duane Newton: And that.
• 48:46
  Donna Wolk: sort of an acquired taste.
• 48:47
  Donna Wolk: I think, you know, people either get me and my truthfulness and my, um, to the pointiness, um, and my quirkiness, if you will.
• 49:00
  Donna Wolk: I mean.
• 49:01
  Donna Wolk: Um, or they don't.
• 49:04
  Donna Wolk: And, and I, I think that's the other thing is trying to, when I was in graduate school, I together like a hundred dollars to take this Franklin Covey leadership class.
• 49:17
  Donna Wolk: 'cause I thought, you know, I don't know anything about leadership.
• 49:21
  Donna Wolk: I need to learn.
• 49:23
  Donna Wolk: um, they gave us a survey and um, then you had, then you had to talk to them about how true the survey was.
• 49:30
  Donna Wolk: And so I had like four or five meetings with these corporate coaches and they kept saying to me, are you sure you like what you do?
• 49:38
  Donna Wolk: And I'm like, yeah, I love what I do.
• 49:41
  Donna Wolk: Well you don't fit our scientific profile.
• 49:45
  Donna Wolk: And I'm like, I'm a scientist.
• 49:49
  Donna Wolk: Well we don't know where to place.
• 49:52
  Donna Wolk: you.
• 49:53
  Donna Wolk: so I kind of learned quickly that, um.
• 49:58
  Donna Wolk: And then later on my fellowship, we took a of a creativity index score where, um, you look at the, the bell curve of, you know, sort of hardcore science and, hardcore creativity.
• 50:16
  Donna Wolk: you know, I'm sort of in the middle of that, which puts me out of line with my scientific, my true like, brilliant, analytical, scientific minded people, not creative enough to really contribute in.
• 50:31
  Donna Wolk: So I, I kind of thought to myself, you gotta chart your own course girl here because you don't fit in a bucket.
• 50:39
  Donna Wolk: You, you gotta learn how to speak to the, the super analytical people, but also, you know, from a creativity standpoint, learn how to.
• 50:50
  Donna Wolk: Talk strategy and business.
• 50:52
  Donna Wolk: That's part of how I got my master's in health administration because I, I couldn't get anything for the laboratory.
• 50:58
  Donna Wolk: I was writing in science terms and what made sense for medical care, not speaking the language.
• 51:06
  Donna Wolk: So I, I think that's another thing that painfully evident to me that I had a, a major gap in, is that I needed to learn, know, different, different messages for different audiences and, and put really, it's, it's about putting your own ego aside in a way because, you know, you grow up as a kid and you have a decent life.
• 51:29
  Donna Wolk: I'm, I'm lucky to have had a decent life.
• 51:32
  Donna Wolk: I mean, a lot of people have a lot more challenges than I do.
• 51:35
  Donna Wolk: Um, and, but you kind of think, you know, the world is going your way you don't have the opportunity to say, you know.
• 51:47
  Donna Wolk: Y what you think is not always the right way or reality and, and just putting that your own sense of self aside for that bigger purpose, whatever that is.
• 52:00
  Donna Wolk: Whether you work in medicine or you work in business, or you work in service jobs, I mean, I think that focusing on.
• 52:10
  Donna Wolk: part of what you can do gets you through the stress of it.
• 52:14
  Donna Wolk: The, the long the sleepless nights of, uh, grad school or COVID pandemic or, you know, kind of keeps you moving towards that goal.
• 52:25
  Donna Wolk: part of that Covey course said, define your top 10 values in life, And then you make your decisions based on what they are.
• 52:33
  Donna Wolk: You know, my daughter, my family, my friends, my, my job was never even in my top five.
• 52:39
  Donna Wolk: But it's there because it's a means to an end it has become a true passion of mine.
• 52:45
  Donna Wolk: So I can't, I can't ever say it's just a job.
• 52:49
  Donna Wolk: Um, to me it's a calling, um, a vocation, I guess, if you will, that that.
• 52:55
  Donna Wolk: I was called to, for whatever reason, put me here, but it allowed me the opportunity to do something I love and get paid for it.
• 53:02
  Donna Wolk: So like, that's great.
• 53:05
  Duane Newton: You certainly seem to have found a home at Geisinger that is really aligned with who you are and, and you know, your, your views on, um, you know, having an impact, being able to do.
• 53:33
  Duane Newton: W what you're doing, um, efficiently, um, providing the greatest amount of value and making decisions about the approaches to take based on evidence, clinical and scientific evidence, data driven.
• 53:50
  Duane Newton: And so I'm curious as how in Geisinger as a health system ha has a wonderful reputation on value-based care and, um, population centered, uh, approaches to healthcare.
• 54:11
  Duane Newton: Has that, was that, I don't know the history very well, but, you know, is that something that's developed over time?
• 54:18
  Duane Newton: Um,
• 54:19
  Donna Wolk: As
• 54:20
  Duane Newton: where
• 54:21
  Donna Wolk: I think we've, so that aligns very well with my values, the value-based care, the wellness, the population health.
• 54:27
  Donna Wolk: Although they, those weren't even words
• 54:30
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 54:30
  Donna Wolk: I started working here.
• 54:32
  Donna Wolk: Um, I do have to say the views are my own and not my employer.
• 54:36
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 54:37
  Donna Wolk: and so I, think that that is important that you find a home that fits your value system in terms of the organization, but that you also always remember that, um, my mother puts it, my mo my 91 year mom, year old mom puts it a certain way every day.
• 55:03
  Donna Wolk: This side of the grass is a good day, Donna.
• 55:06
  Donna Wolk: And, uh, and I think, that.
• 55:10
  Donna Wolk: That might seem cynical, but It it's really not in that your organization, your family, you know, it's a dynamic and you, you align with certain things and then other things you don't align with.
• 55:24
  Donna Wolk: And I think that that is, you have to keep that in mind.
• 55:29
  Donna Wolk: You cannot have expectations that, um, that everything will be the same forever.
• 55:36
  Donna Wolk: Um, that organization you sign on to at any point of your career will remain the same.
• 55:43
  Donna Wolk: That the, I mean, look at the health infrastructure in the United States.
• 55:48
  Donna Wolk: We, we all grew up a aligning with surveillance data and public health initiatives that correlated with, um, our laboratory roles.
• 55:58
  Donna Wolk: And I think the one thing that people fall into in organizations, whether, whether you align with them or not, is that none of that is permanent.
• 56:11
  Donna Wolk: It is a day-to-day thing, like my mom, any day, this side of the grass.
• 56:16
  Donna Wolk: So when you go to work every day, look for that alignment.
• 56:21
  Donna Wolk: You look for that, uh, you know, sort of future view, And you lock into that knowing that, there's gonna be deviations.
• 56:33
  Donna Wolk: You know, there's no organization in this country, although mine and have always loved wherever I've been, I, I feel very lucky to have served those organizations.
• 56:45
  Donna Wolk: But it's, it can't be what drives you You know, you can't, you can't trust that that's gonna be there from day to day because people change, leaders change, and yet you have to continue your North Star with or without the organization and, and have a separate part of you that.
• 57:09
  Donna Wolk: You use when you make decisions about anything, about any part of of your career track and your, your service role.
• 57:18
  Donna Wolk: I don't know if that makes sense or
• 57:20
  Duane Newton: It does and I, I think,
• 57:22
  Donna Wolk: I think, you know, and you see it in, in like more in businesses, I think.
• 57:28
  Donna Wolk: Like people switch, switch jobs and they work for one company and they're like, rah, rah, that and then they go someplace else and then it's, yeah, you go and I think, where are you there?
• 57:42
  Duane Newton: yeah.
• 57:42
  Donna Wolk: where's you?
• 57:44
  Donna Wolk: Um, and so I've always been very careful about that.
• 57:47
  Donna Wolk: I, I do to give credit where credit is due to my organizations.
• 57:53
  Donna Wolk: Um, but uh, I don't let myself as a human being, my job role aligns with that.
• 58:03
  Donna Wolk: My person is still my person, if that makes.
• 58:06
  Donna Wolk: Any weird sense, I, I
• 58:08
  Duane Newton: It does.
• 58:08
  Donna Wolk: I have to have that locus of con of control about my value system And who I, am.
• 58:14
  Donna Wolk: And sometimes my truthfulness, to be honest, gets me in trouble wherever I've been.
• 58:19
  Donna Wolk: My goal has always been hard, get results.
• 58:25
  Donna Wolk: Have your feet in more than one camp.
• 58:27
  Donna Wolk: You know, I've learned that if you have a little foot in research or you have a little foot in education, you have a little foot in clinical, then you have allies across a broad swatch of people.
• 58:39
  Donna Wolk: in my world, as a, a female in a, a fairly direct female who, I mean to be honest, has been called bossy and, you know, forthright, um, in my life, although I don't see myself that way, but obviously I need some more maybe self-reflection there.
• 59:00
  Donna Wolk: Um, but that has always kept.
• 59:05
  Donna Wolk: That has given me the, ability to speak truths that other people weren't able to speak, because I can always go someplace else.
• 59:16
  Donna Wolk: Like I don't, I don't belong to the organization.
• 59:20
  Donna Wolk: And I've always been very thoughtful about where I am.
• 59:24
  Donna Wolk: I was a dean in one of the master's programs on the main campus versus the medical college.
• 59:31
  Donna Wolk: I always had a little bit of, um, people in every port, so to speak, that I could learn from and get opinions from.
• 59:42
  Donna Wolk: And, uh, you know, I, I've been in situations like, you know, my, my male colleagues were getting$12,000 extra year for chairing committees that never met.
• 59:53
  Donna Wolk: Whereas my career track was very hard fought and, you know, negotiating for.
• 1:00:02
  Donna Wolk: What I needed.
• 1:00:03
  Donna Wolk: Um, you know, raises are not a given in a university setting.
• 1:00:08
  Donna Wolk: You, every 10 years you get a raise.
• 1:00:09
  Donna Wolk: And I came from an organization that you get cost of living and then I'm, I'm hired by somebody, by a group that says, oh no, maybe a decade from now you'll get a raise.
• 1:00:20
  Donna Wolk: You know, so that finding the, courage to say things and ask for things was also, I think, is hard for men or women, but some people do find it easier'cause they've, you know, never felt like I deserved it, but I know I needed it and my daughter needed it.
• 1:00:38
  Donna Wolk: So you gotta go outside your comfort zone and negotiate and, um, advocate for your own self, which is not, you know, some, it wasn't my normal state of being, but I would always say, put on your blue collar shirt and go be Dr.
• 1:00:54
  Donna Wolk: Wolk today.
• 1:00:55
  Donna Wolk: You know, whether I felt like it or not, it's survival for me.
• 1:01:00
  Donna Wolk: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:18
  Duane Newton: those of us that know you.
• 1:01:21
  Duane Newton: C you, you describe it with a little bit of a, um, you, it has a, it sounds like you're being negative about yourself and being direct and bossy a little bit.
• 1:01:37
  Duane Newton: But, you know, it's, there's never been, I've never ever felt that there's an ounce of anything, uh, you know, self-centered or selfish or, you know, self-promoting about it.
• 1:01:55
  Duane Newton: It's about, you know, calling a spade a spade and this is, this is the right thing to do and this is why.
• 1:02:03
  Duane Newton: And, uh, I think that's a tremendous gift to be able to have that clarity, to see it, and to have the courage to say it.
• 1:02:11
  Duane Newton: And, um, and that's, uh, why I like you.
• 1:02:17
  Donna Wolk: It does make you a target sometimes and, oh gosh.
• 1:02:21
  Donna Wolk: I've had to, I've had to, I've had to learn over the years how to, how to phrase things and.
• 1:02:31
  Donna Wolk: Uh, very different ways, like, than what's in my head, because what's in my head you know, probably something that I don't always wanna say out loud.
• 1:02:42
  Donna Wolk: Um, and know, like that TV character, did I just say that kind of thing?
• 1:02:50
  Donna Wolk: So, uh, you know, that's why I do a lot of reading, polishing myself up.
• 1:02:55
  Donna Wolk: I'm, I'm just a simple person.
• 1:02:57
  Donna Wolk: I'm just a simple microbiologist who leads a very complicated life.
• 1:03:03
  Donna Wolk: And, um, you know, the, the first and foremost thing for me is being a parent.
• 1:03:09
  Donna Wolk: Um, being a friend and a partner, and, uh, a good daughter and, um, all a good member of society.
• 1:03:18
  Donna Wolk: And, um, I think we're all challenged right now to try to find.
• 1:03:24
  Donna Wolk: Our bigger place, our bigger space, um, whether we're busy and have work, but know we need to do something to stand up for health and vaccines and, and things that we need to do, don't always know how to do them.
• 1:03:42
  Duane Newton: so y- you, you shared a lot of really wonderful information and, and, um, these really personal stories that influenced you.
• 1:03:54
  Duane Newton: You, you talked about this experience in Hawaii as a graduate student where, you know, your mentor's spouse was taking care of him the whole time and, and you realized you didn't have a person like that in your life, and you had to be self-sufficient and, and identify, you know, what was important to you.
• 1:04:14
  Duane Newton: And, and those priorities focused and drove you in a certain way.
• 1:04:20
  Duane Newton: And you're, you know, coming from a, a modest, rural, small town upbringing in Pennsylvania influenced your decision to, you know, focus on Mayo as, as a target for your fellowship program.
• 1:04:36
  Duane Newton: And, you know, you put all your eggs in that basket and it, and it turned out.
• 1:04:40
  Duane Newton: And, and that kind of in- wanting to y- maintain that small town vibe and feel about, you know, the places that you, you ended up was important to you.
• 1:04:58
  Duane Newton: So I'd be interested now with the benefit of the retrospectoscope to be able to go back and, you know, look in time.
• 1:05:07
  Duane Newton: Not that you would change anything, because I don't think that's a fair, um, position to, you know, to ask somebody to be in.
• 1:05:15
  Duane Newton: But, you know, having gone through those experiences and, and, and lived through them and gotten to where you are, what would you go back and tell y- y- that younger version of yourself?
• 1:05:29
  Duane Newton: You know, the younger version, you know, your graduate student version of, of yourself in Hawaii or the, the soon to be postdoc version of yourself in Rochester in...
• 1:05:39
  Duane Newton: A- are there some things that you might say to, to ease your thought process or comfort or, you know-
• 1:05:51
  Donna Wolk: Yeah, I-
• 1:05:51
  Duane Newton: knowledge that you would like to share with that version of yourself?
• 1:05:56
  Donna Wolk: Well, it's a, it's a great reflection, um, to think about.
• 1:06:01
  Donna Wolk: And- You know, from that point of view, I mean, part of it I think comes from being an o- the eldest child, um, and part of it comes from the fact that I was e- an enormously tall child, 5'4" in like third or fourth grade.
• 1:06:23
  Donna Wolk: And so, you know, I wasn't always this wide, but I always was very tall.
• 1:06:29
  Donna Wolk: And you know, people kind of expect things from you, so if, you know, I kind of had that all my life where people were, you know, kinda looking to me for answers or protection.
• 1:06:42
  Donna Wolk: I mean, I remember sort of sticking up for my smaller, more frail friends in even in elementary school.
• 1:06:49
  Donna Wolk: So at the time I was in graduate school and, and really going through Mayo, I, I think that I had learned by then to just, you know, trust myself and, um, listen to my intuition and, and be comfortably uncomfortable with my decisions.
• 1:07:11
  Donna Wolk: Because, you know, it, it's really easy, especially as a single parent, to y- you know, second-guess yourself.
• 1:07:19
  Donna Wolk: And you really have to fight that all the time.
• 1:07:26
  Donna Wolk: And when I say fight it, I don't mean don't feel it.
• 1:07:30
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:31
  Donna Wolk: I mean have the feeling, second-guess yourself, self-reflect, am I doing the right thing?
• 1:07:37
  Donna Wolk: You know, I, I love my Adam Grant's book, Think Again, where, um, you are in the moment making the decision best you can, uh, and then you put it aside.
• 1:07:52
  Donna Wolk: I- I think that's the concept here that, that drove me, is that, okay, I do have this vulnerability.
• 1:08:02
  Donna Wolk: I don't have a big infrastructure.
• 1:08:05
  Donna Wolk: I mean, uh, I've always have a famous c- not a famous quote, but a f- quote in my family that they'll hear me say, you know,"Family is a cir- uh, is a circle of friends who love you." And I always, as a single mom, I, I did have to remind myself that over and over.
• 1:08:22
  Donna Wolk: That's probably single parenthood and financial stability during grad school was my biggest vulnerability and my biggest stress.
• 1:08:31
  Donna Wolk: So awareness of the fact that my infrastructure was small at the time, and then also knowing what I could handle, thinking about what I could handle.
• 1:08:44
  Donna Wolk: Mayo's not as small as the town I grew up in, or Rochester, Minnesota is not.
• 1:08:49
  Donna Wolk: It's, it's big compared to where I grew up, but it did have sort of a, a, a rural and an urban feel, and I felt I could raise my child there.
• 1:09:00
  Donna Wolk: But oh my goodness, that was a, you know, big risk to just...
• 1:09:05
  Donna Wolk: You're a single parent.
• 1:09:06
  Donna Wolk: Your choices are stay and do a postdoc and get paid almost nothing, or take a chance on one program and, you know, trust the universe that things will work out.
• 1:09:17
  Donna Wolk: I think that's a big piece of what I would tell myself back then, is that, you know, things that I, I continue to tell my daughter.
• 1:09:27
  Donna Wolk: You make good decisions, trust yourself, keep moving forward, and if you're, if it doesn't work out, then maybe it's meant to be something else.
• 1:09:39
  Donna Wolk: Maybe you will find a path.
• 1:09:42
  Donna Wolk: And I think for people who are struggling with decisions, thinking that that final decision is, is fatal or has to be flawless, or that you can't back up the car and go a different direction, is what paralyzes people.
• 1:10:03
  Donna Wolk: And, you know, I, I, I sort of credit that to my father.
• 1:10:07
  Donna Wolk: He, he was- A fearless man who barely knew how to read and, and founded a business.
• 1:10:15
  Donna Wolk: And he always, you know, would tell us,"You wanna do it?
• 1:10:20
  Donna Wolk: You just, you just go do it." And so, right, he was kind of, you know, that inspiration for me.
• 1:10:27
  Donna Wolk: Also because people sort of trusted me'cause I was this big giant.
• 1:10:31
  Donna Wolk: Um, and, uh, you know, so that, that's what I would tell myself,"Just keep trusting yourself." I actually have to keep doing that today.
• 1:10:41
  Donna Wolk: That doesn't go away just because you're, you have a career.
• 1:10:46
  Donna Wolk: In f- in fact, as you get closer to retirement, it gets super scary again.
• 1:10:51
  Donna Wolk: You know, you're opening up a new chapter of your life.
• 1:10:53
  Donna Wolk: You're starting a new story.
• 1:10:56
  Donna Wolk: You build your whole career gathering information, learning skills.
• 1:11:02
  Donna Wolk: And then if you're gonna, if you're going to be a good mentor and do succession planning, you start having to give that stuff away.
• 1:11:11
  Donna Wolk: You almost have to have a trajectory of making yourself irrelevant over time so that you can retire in peace knowing everything's in good hands.
• 1:11:21
  Donna Wolk: And, and that's, you know, that's really kind of the part where I am now.
• 1:11:27
  Duane Newton: The, the...
• 1:11:29
  Duane Newton: It's amazing to me to hear you talk about the trust in yourself that you had at such an early part of your career and, and life in just as a person.
• 1:11:44
  Duane Newton: And, um, that, that's something that I have...
• 1:11:52
  Duane Newton: I'm just now feeling like I'm coming into more of that, you know, that, that believing in that intuition and the, that gut, the gut feelings and, and having the belief in myself to be able to do that.
• 1:12:10
  Duane Newton: Um, i- it's taken a- It's a
• 1:12:13
  Donna Wolk: mind game, though.
• 1:12:14
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:12:14
  Duane Newton: Like,
• 1:12:14
  Donna Wolk: it's still scary.
• 1:12:15
  Duane Newton: Ri- I know.
• 1:12:16
  Duane Newton: It, yeah.
• 1:12:17
  Donna Wolk: You just have to
• 1:12:17
  Duane Newton: tell yourself.
• 1:12:18
  Duane Newton: But having the awareness, right.
• 1:12:20
  Duane Newton: But ha- Yeah having the awareness, uh, of it, you know, that, that that is something to listen to, you know.
• 1:12:28
  Duane Newton: Believing it is the other part, you know, but the first part is that, that, that, uh, that's something that you can listen to.
• 1:12:34
  Duane Newton: And I love the analogy, and I've used this, the exact same one, um, you know, that a, a decision is not...
• 1:12:42
  Duane Newton: A decision you make is not a one-way street.
• 1:12:44
  Duane Newton: You can always turn around and go back.
• 1:12:46
  Duane Newton: And I f- that took me a long time to figure out too, that I, I thought when I was in high school and college, you know, the major that I was gonna decide- You know, I ha- it had to be perfect, and the decisions that I was gonna make and the direction that I was gonna go, I couldn't make any mistakes.
• 1:13:09
  Duane Newton: And, um, I, I never really felt that freedom to make mistakes and to change, and I- that's, that's a, a...
• 1:13:22
  Duane Newton: That was difficult.
• 1:13:23
  Duane Newton: And it reminds me too of, uh, something else that, that came up in the information that you shared with me.
• 1:13:33
  Duane Newton: You know, I was, I was looking at the slide deck you shared th- that you presented at ASM when you got the, the BD Clinical Micro Award several years ago, and one of the, the books that you referenced in that presentation was The Four Agreements, and that w- that was one that was also, it's been pivotal for me as well.
• 1:14:00
  Duane Newton: And the, if people haven't read it, The Four Agreements, um, I have it right here.
• 1:14:08
  Duane Newton: Don Miguel Ru- whoops.
• 1:14:10
  Duane Newton: Don Miguel Ruiz is the author, and the four agreements that he talks about, be impeccable with your word, don't take anything personally, don't make assumptions, and always do your best.
• 1:14:29
  Duane Newton: And it's, it's really simple in so many ways, but also really, really hard in, in others.
• 1:14:38
  Duane Newton: It is.
• 1:14:38
  Duane Newton: And, you know, the doing your best part I think is kind of the, you know, acknowledging that what you're doing is the best that you can do is, is part of it, but always trying to, to put that best version out there.
• 1:14:56
  Duane Newton: Um, I think that's the thing that I get from you as you're talking.
• 1:15:01
  Duane Newton: You know, you're, you're putting the best version of yourself out there, and y- it, it feels to me when you talk that you acknowledge that you're doing your best.
• 1:15:13
  Duane Newton: That this is the best
• 1:15:14
  Donna Wolk: that I can do.
• 1:15:14
  Donna Wolk: Yeah, and that, I think that's the easiest one for me as a first child, a firstborn, a big, tall kid, um- Uh, you know, maybe more type A in my youth than I am now for sure because I think, uh, adulthood and growing up and, uh, your experiences in life kinda make you aware that that is not a healthy place to be all of the time.
• 1:15:42
  Donna Wolk: Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:42
  Donna Wolk: That's the easiest one for me.
• 1:15:44
  Donna Wolk: Uh,
• 1:15:44
  Duane Newton: but- What's the
• 1:15:44
  Donna Wolk: hardest
• 1:15:45
  Duane Newton: one for you?
• 1:15:45
  Donna Wolk: Um, well, I wanna just back up one second and say that- Mm-hmm w- when I was a single parent in grad school, th- that's when that one became hard.
• 1:15:56
  Donna Wolk: Uh, as a parent it just becomes hard, and you have to...
• 1:16:00
  Donna Wolk: Then you have to say,"Okay, but my best is different on any given day."
• 1:16:05
  Duane Newton: Mm-hmm.
• 1:16:05
  Donna Wolk: And, and I'm comfortable and I'm content as long as I give my best that day.
• 1:16:11
  Donna Wolk: If my hair is washed when I'm on my way to class- and that's the best I could do that day- then that's the best I could do that day.
• 1:16:20
  Donna Wolk: I, you know, I actually, uh, met another colleague, uh, Beth Marlowe, in graduate school, you know, on one of those days, and I'm like-
• 1:16:31
  Duane Newton: Where your best wasn't, like,
• 1:16:33
  Donna Wolk: the best
• 1:16:33
  Duane Newton: Just
• 1:16:34
  Donna Wolk: my best wasn't all that great, you know?
• 1:16:37
  Donna Wolk: But, um, but anyway, m- the hardest one I think for me as a scientist, um, I've always been a, a truthful person.
• 1:16:46
  Donna Wolk: That was drilled in.
• 1:16:47
  Donna Wolk: That one was...
• 1:16:47
  Donna Wolk: That's, that's easy.
• 1:16:49
  Donna Wolk: Um, the hardest one for me is, I think, don't make assumptions because we are groomed in a scientific community from the day we hit college, and the expectations that you hold for yourself if you are sort of on the science track and you are always doing your best, then you start to believe that that's the world and that your decisions are good and sound.
• 1:17:28
  Donna Wolk: But early on you h- I had to learn, like...
• 1:17:30
  Donna Wolk: And when I read the book I went,"Oh, yeah, uh, my decisions aren't great for everyone." So when people would come to me for counsel- I was, in my earlier years, quicker to share,"Well, if it were me, I would do this." And now I don't say those things anymore because it's not me, and I have to trust people that I know and love and work with to make the best decisions they are making for themselves on whatever their best looks like that day.
• 1:18:04
  Donna Wolk: And I think that's really when my, uh, career changed to a way of more listening, more...
• 1:18:14
  Donna Wolk: less talking, more listening.
• 1:18:16
  Donna Wolk: I, I'm a, I'm a verbal learner, um, so a, a, a, and a verbal thinker.
• 1:18:24
  Donna Wolk: So words just sort of come out of my mouth, and I, and my mind has to tell myself,"Stop talking now.
• 1:18:32
  Donna Wolk: Stop talking now.
• 1:18:33
  Donna Wolk: Stop talking now." Um, so that was probably m- the biggest one for me to overcome.
• 1:18:39
  Donna Wolk: And, you know, I, I have that book, uh, front cover printed out on my door so that I see it first thing every morning, and on my file cabinet so that I see it during the day.
• 1:18:53
  Donna Wolk: Uh, so it, it really has, um, changed me.
• 1:18:58
  Donna Wolk: Uh, the author is a physician and a shaman, and that juxtaposition of different ways of thinking about the world, uh, when I first read it, uh, it was not all science and it made me a little uncomfortable.
• 1:19:15
  Donna Wolk: Um, but, uh, you know, I've since learned that's, that's the best place to be and to learn.
• 1:19:21
  Donna Wolk: As a lifelong learner, you have to be uncomfortable or y- or you, you stop learning.
• 1:19:27
  Duane Newton: But it also, he tracks with y- you talked earlier in our conversation about your experience in your FranklinCovey-
• 1:19:39
  Donna Wolk: Oh, yeah
• 1:19:39
  Duane Newton: leadership and- and, like, the scientist and creative person, you're kind of in the middle, and they didn't know where to put you.
• 1:19:45
  Duane Newton: And so- Yeah he's kind of, he, he kind of, uh, fits that bill, too.
• 1:19:50
  Duane Newton: So it- Yeah it makes sense that that's attractive to you.
• 1:19:53
  Donna Wolk: I had to not take that personally, Duane, which is the other one.
• 1:19:56
  Duane Newton: Yeah, I know
• 1:19:57
  Donna Wolk: that- Don't take thi- I ha- when they're telling me,"Are you sure you, like, you ta- are you sure you wanna be a scientist?" Um, I, I'm not taking that personally, you know?
• 1:20:04
  Donna Wolk: So it's hard- I think the- not to take things personally, but, well, the biggest one I struggle with is not to make assumptions.
• 1:20:12
  Duane Newton: Well, I think th- those two middle ones for me, um, as, as an oldest child, I, I...
• 1:20:19
  Duane Newton: it resonates with me abo- about, you know, being impeccable to your word and, and doing your best, and kind of, part of it was the expectations that were put on me.
• 1:20:30
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:20:30
  Duane Newton: Yeah.
• 1:20:30
  Duane Newton: Um, and that making assumptions and, and- Definitely.
• 1:20:34
  Duane Newton: You know, I think the, the one that is the hardest is not taking things personally, because I, I just, for whatever reason, it, it is always what I put out there, what I do, you know, I invest so much in- Mm-hmm that, you know, any, any outcome, good or bad, is a reflection of me.
• 1:20:58
  Duane Newton: That's how I- Yeah would, that's how I t- would take it, and it's taken a while.
• 1:21:02
  Donna Wolk: And, and I mean, it's not like my siblings are liars or don't do their best.
• 1:21:07
  Donna Wolk: They're outstanding people.
• 1:21:09
  Donna Wolk: I mean, they're exactly like me except, for whatever reason, you know, I set those expectations- For yourself.
• 1:21:20
  Donna Wolk: Yeah too high for myself.
• 1:21:21
  Donna Wolk: And, and again, in grad school, I, I'm, I may have said this or maybe I didn't, but I had to continually tell myself,"Treat yourself half as good as you treat other people, and that'll be an improvement for you." So like those constant things that I had to remind myself to give myself some grace, because up until that point, I, I really didn't know how to give myself grace.
• 1:21:51
  Donna Wolk: So I really tried to, I really try to pass that on to my chi- children, my, my people that I work with and...
• 1:22:03
  Donna Wolk: Because there's a lot of scientists in that bucket of, you know, meticulous type A kind of people.
• 1:22:11
  Donna Wolk: Um, nothing wrong with that.
• 1:22:13
  Donna Wolk: That's great- Mm-hmm for us being scientists, but, you know, learning how to be i- in love with yourself, I think, is, is an important part of a process there.
• 1:22:26
  Duane Newton: This has been really wonderful, Donna, and, and I, I...
• 1:22:32
  Duane Newton: That, those sentiments, th- that's why I love talking with you is because that, the duality of, you know, the analytical, scientific, technical person and the thoughtful, introspective, personable world thinker.
• 1:22:56
  Duane Newton: It r- like, creative, uh, all the stuff that kind of, uh...
• 1:23:03
  Duane Newton: It's not that it conflicts, but it's just, it's a, it's a wonderful combination of attributes that, uh, I really admire, and it, your story is just really, really amazing and, uh, unique.
• 1:23:23
  Donna Wolk: What- You know?
• 1:23:23
  Donna Wolk: What you see is what you get.
• 1:23:28
  Duane Newton: Well, I appreciate what I see and what you've given- And, uh, I look forward to seeing what the next chapters for you look like too.
• 1:23:41
  Donna Wolk: Me too.
• 1:23:42
  Donna Wolk: Thanks, Duane.
• 1:23:43
  Donna Wolk: Appreciate your time so much, and appreciate having me on, on your podcast.
• 1:23:48
  Duane Newton: Well, thank you very much, Donna.
• 1:23:52
  Donna Wolk: So long.
• 1:24:02
  Duane Newton: If you're enjoying Navigating Your Path, please be sure to like or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:24:08
  Duane Newton: If you'd like to directly connect with me, you can reach out via my podcast email, which is listed in the description of this episode.
• 1:24:16
  Duane Newton: It also contains the links to the podcast website and YouTube channel where you can check out more of my content.
• 1:24:24
  Duane Newton: Feel free to reach out if you'd like to share any comments or even make suggestions about future topics to discuss.
• 1:24:32
  Duane Newton: I'd also love to hear from you if you have suggestions for people for me to interview or even if you'd like to be interviewed by me.
• 1:24:39
  Duane Newton: You can also contact me if you'd like to learn more about what it is that I do as a professional development coach.
• 1:24:47
  Duane Newton: I look forward to having you join me next time.
• 1:24:49
  Duane Newton: Take good care.