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The Tottenham post-mortem · Chelsea Press Room

• Bobby Vincent: I can't remember did it happen at one o'clock? It Kieran Gill: I think it's at 2am, it goes back to 1am. Bobby Vincent: I was t I was texting you about that time, right? And then Yeah, yeah, yeah, Kieran Gill: Yeah, I was awake. Bobby Vincent: and then and then it then it changed and I didn't really know what was going on. I Googled it. I still don't really know what's going on. But I didn't I d I didn't like have any warning. I I feel like no one spoke about this one. I feel like normally Kieran Gill: You would Bobby Vincent: normally it's like for for the day before or like the couple of days before it's like, the clocks will change, but I feel like no one knew this time. Kieran Gill: You were just sat there going, magic time. Bobby Vincent: Yeah, but I yeah, I was really happy though. But then but then I didn't really take advantage of that extra hour because I just stayed awake for another hour. You know what I mean? So yeah, Kieran Gill: Yeah. Bobby Vincent: I'm quite tired. But I didn't really mean to. But we move. Kieran Gill: even though you knew you had to do this podcast. Bobby Vincent: You know, I I just couldn't sleep. You know, I was my head was just full of Yeah, football. Peter Rutzler: Excitement. Couldn't wait. Kieran Gill: just anger, Bobby Vincent: Football. Kieran Gill: anger at Chelsea's performance. Bobby Vincent: Yeah, and then I was trying to tire myself out by like watching T V. So Kieran Gill: Great, shall we talk Chelsea? Peter Rutzler: Does the f does the does Yeah, I was gonna say, does the fact that it was it felt quite serious, you know, losing to Tottenham it makes you know, we does that mean we do less inane chat at the start of a podcast or do we sort of Bobby Vincent: Yeah, we're not allowed to laugh. Peter Rutzler: we'll have to we'll have to gut straight into it, I suppose. Rather than talk about your new robot, Kieran. Kieran Gill: Yeah. Aha. Peter Rutzler: You can tell everyone. This is recording by the way. I have been recording for the last few minutes. I wasn't gonna miss the gold of Bobby not talking about his inability Kieran Gill: Magic time. Peter Rutzler: to un understand the clock's going forward and back. Bobby Vincent: I feel I feel violated. Kieran Gill: You Peter Rutzler: anyway, let's skip over your robot. You can do that for later in the week, I suppose. Well, yesterday was interesting, wasn't it? all three of us were there in in the press box at very wet and windy Stamford Bridge to see Tottenham beat Chelsea for the first time since twenty eighteen. That's only their second win in forty two games in all competitions. There's loads to get into, isn't there? What are your sort of initial re thoughts and reaction? Because you The more I thought about this game, kind of the worse it has sort has sort of been summed up, really, because you've got the nature of the defeat, lots of d questions about selection, discipline reared its head, keepers, everything. It had a real real mix of Chelsea I was gonna say treats, but not not really treats, are they? but yeah, what are your initial feelings, guys? Kieran Gill: I think it's very strange to come out of a game where a goalie chucked one into his own goal and not think that's why they lost. Alonso said afterwards that he could sense it was going to be about the first goal and I was sat next to Bobby in the press box and we said a few times, I think Bobby said it first to be fair, probably even in the first half, that Spurs go first here. It just, I had that feel. And if we could feel that from the press box, surely that's what... Alonso could feel as well. And then no subs at half time surprised me. I don't think Quenda showed really much of what he's about. Henderson had a good run, but he didn't do much in this match. it was just all, I don't know if it's too harsh, but Alonso with his tactics almost betrayed what this fixture is supposed to be about. And that's, you know, it's supposed to be about Chelsea sticking it to Tottenham. No matter how bad the season's gone or how iffy it all is, at least we can beat them at Stamford Bridge. That's how it goes, that's history. Maybe the odd draw, you certainly don't lose. But just never had the sense, Chelsea were going to win this match and I think that was largely down to Alonso's approach. Peter Rutzler: Yeah, shall we start with that then? Shall we look at the line up? Because that was that was the first interesting development, wasn't it? First that Joao Pedro was not involved, which he's having his injury assessed today, we we understand. Alonso spoke afterwards, Bob, he saw he spoke about him having liquid but not actually saying what it is. I mean, obviously there's were reports of a knee injury before when he missed the Brentford game and the international duty and that suggests it's a similar kind of thing, that kind of language. what did you make of the line up when it dropped? Because the big surprise was, as Kieran said, Giovanni Quenda started. Bobby Vincent: Yeah, it was a big surprise and we were we were all trying to work out in the press box, weren't we, what how he was setting up 'cause there was obviously the option of Pedro Neto as well being in the front three, but it was sort of as we expected, when we got the lineup. But yeah, I mean with Danny Wellbeck, he probably doesn't offer you what Jal Pedro offers you off the ball, at least, in terms of his press and maybe he just wanted for three more sort of dynamic players in the front three to help with the press. But yeah, I mean, it w it was still a surprise and it it it didn't work. And I just watched Alonso's interview with the Chelsea media, just literally before we started recording and he said obviously 'cause it happened so late he had to change his game plan. And that is obviously that is obviously frustrating for him, but it's something that you have to sort of deal with. And I yeah, I don't think he got it y I think it's safe to say he didn't get it right yesterday. Spurs were completely completely good value for their win. They deserved it. And like Kieran said, it sort of always felt like they were gonna score the first goal, but at the same time, when it got to half time and it was nil nil, I thought I thought Alonso would get in there, change something. He didn't make any subs. Kieran Gill: Thank Bobby Vincent: He I think he tweaked the system slightly, the shape slightly. And I thought Chelsea would be better for that, but if anything they got worse in the second half. So Yeah, really display Sorry goal. Peter Rutzler: Quenda Quenda started Kieran Gill: Amen. Peter Rutzler: Quenda starting is was interesting in a couple of ways, right? Because one, it was his first Premier League start, so that's a bit of a curveball. I mean, when he's played previously for sporting, he was always of a winger or a wing back when when he first came through under Ruben Amoron, Kieran Gill: If Peter Rutzler: he played as a wing back. But particularly in that first half, and you mentioned this Bob, because he he definitely sort of tweaked it after the break, he was playing it felt in a bit more of that sort of central role and Of course Morgan Rogers was leading the attack instead of Danny Wellbeck, Kieran. what did you make of it? Because obviously that also meant Esteval didn't play. Obviously he did come on in the second half, but it just it just it was such a s it's such an unexpected decision. and when it doesn't pay off it ends up coming under a lot of scrutiny. Kieran Gill: Yeah, I mean, was bad timing that Nico Jackson did what he did for Villa earlier in the day because two goals to down Maresca's Man City. I'm not saying Chelsea were wrong to sell him. Jackson wanted to be a starter and he wasn't going to get that at Chelsea before João Pedro. And maybe too much happened between Jackson and Chelsea for him to say, I'll be patient for a season for you, even if his main beef was with Maresca. So. So basically Chelsea left with strikers, Xao Pedro, Emega, who's still injured. Alonso hasn't given us a timeline when we've asked, he's been quite vague. And Welbeck. So I'm surprised Welbeck didn't just come in in a like-for-like replacement against Spurs. And now we don't know how long Xao Pedro is going to be out. Because I think I said to you boys yesterday, someone around his camp said, we're not sure how long it will be. either yet. So I guess we're kind of waiting for a timeframe and for these assessments to go through. But then, yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'll come on to Cole Palmer, but the plus side for his suspension at Liverpool is surely Estaval is now going to get to start a game. If he doesn't, that will be quite a signal. Peter Rutzler: Do you think do you think Alonso might have been I was just wondering about this, whether there was an element of being scared of from the Brentford game? Because I think you were right, Bob, when you were talking about how dynamic he wants that front three to be. And one of the the key things we've seen from Jal Pedro, Morgan Rogers, Cole Palmer together is that off the ball, they're really, really good. And not that Danny Wellbeck can't do it, but he can't do it to the the same degree. And it just felt like to me that that was fine, but then the way the game sort of Pando out the lack of any sort of midfield control because moving Rogers forward, you kinda you just lost what was a four, really. You had Kaiseido and Henderson, Rogers and Palmer as a four look really good, didn't they? Last couple of w couple of games. And then suddenly that's disrupted, and you don't have a focal point either. I mean, I was just having a look to see when Morgan Rogers has played up front, and he has played up front before, but it's like a couple of times for Villa. He apparently did it eight times for Blackpool. Like it's a bit of an inexact science that, but it's not something we're we're we've known him for. And it it's particularly I I don't know if you've seen this. I know there's a couple of clips I've been doing the rounds on social media, but it did it was noticeable in the game. Now obviously like Chelsea didn't see a lot of the Kieran Gill: Thank Peter Rutzler: ball, but they were going really direct. Like really good really direct. Lots of like clip like kick punts up the field, that kind of thing. It almost felt like almost in a reaction to Kieran Gill: it Peter Rutzler: How dominant Spurs were, especially in that first half, in controlling the ball. But it also reflected the fact that one, Chelsea didn't have much control of the ball, which we're not it's not unusual, but also they had nothing there at the other end to sort of hold the ball up. and I I was I was like you guys quite surprised that by half time we didn't see Quenda go off. what hap Kieran Gill: I mean, it is concerning that the two Premier League games that Xau Pedro's missed was this one and the 3-0 loss at Brentford. So 0.0 goals, five goals conceded. It's a small sample pool, so we can't really accuse them of being reliant on Xau Pedro. No Xau Pedro, no party sort of thing. But I mean, that has to be worrying. Doesn't it? I mean, you're the tactics guy, Pete, so you probably see more. Yeah, you're more clever than me. I'm speaking Peter Rutzler: Promotion. Kieran Gill: for Bobby here as well. You're more clever than us. So Bobby Vincent: No you know. Kieran Gill: you might be able to see more to that. Peter Rutzler: I I mean the the key thing is they didn't score early, which I think has been massive. We know we talked about that in the f in the first pod we did and that's been a key ingredient for like for most of the wins really, because it changes the the state of the game. If you you don't need to dominate the ball in the same way, you can allow your opponents to come onto you, you can they can leave space and you can hurt them and Chelsea have done that quite effectively, and obviously in the Brentford game and also here that didn't happen. it didn't happen to Everton as well, but I would say that was also a game that was quite finely balanced, right? I mean if if you know if Everton score first, maybe that's a a different picture. I I think the first half I mean a lot of credit goes to Spurs as well. I think James Madison had such a good first half. the way he and Fernandez and Tanali were combining, like Chelsea really didn't know how to deal with him. you had In moments you'd have Maxence LeCroix sort of stepping out from the back, almost hesitating to follow Madison, not getting quite close enough when he moved into that space in the middle third, and suddenly they'd ping the ball out wide to Mattis Tell and they kept doing that consistently and consistently. And it just felt like, well, Spurs can create these chances, but they won't score them. Obviously Marmoush missed a good one. and Chelsea's chances really there was the the Palmer effort that was saved by Kinsky. There was Henderson as well. Kieran Gill: Net-all. Peter Rutzler: Neto, yes, and the follow up to that. But both of those were transition, weren't they? They were turnovers. and this is a massive change, isn't it, to the Chelsea we've seen before. Like under Moresca and a very possession based style. This is a much more pragmatic way of playing. And that that was very apparent. And I think as you sort of touched on at the start, Kieran, to do that against Tottenham and to let Tottenham come to Stamford Bridge and dominate the ball, that's that's harder for I think for supporters to follow, especially if you're not Scoring early. Kieran Gill: Yeah, I mean was just, just all had a flat feel to it from a Chelsea perspective. This is how I felt watching it. I mean, I've got no emotional connection to Chelsea other than I cover them and I like some of the people who work there and yet their performance was annoying me while I was watching it. It was just passive, didn't really feel there was much intent, no authority. I mean, the one time the piece together, a few first time passes was when Kinsky gave the ball to Netto. and then bang, bang, bang, bang, led to that Henderson chance from outside the box. But otherwise, it was just flat. Now, I feel like if we... Are we going to see a similar approach like that against Manchester United next weekend? Because I think the fans weren't happy with how Chelsea played yesterday, and I don't think they'd be happy with Alonso if he goes down the same route next weekend either. Peter Rutzler: Obviously or no changes at half time, second half. The start of that second half, it felt because Tottenham were in control. They had created some good chances, or at least they threatened. It actually it felt like the game could swing Chelsea's way, couldn't it? Because Madison obviously goes down injured. You could see the looks on the Tottenham staff's faces, the the players, the way they reacted to it. That's a moment in the game where, and you know, considering what we've seen from Tottenham this season. That's a moment that could definitely change the game in Chelsea's favour, but obviously it it didn't. Bobby Vincent: Yeah, you probably would have expected it to give Chelsea a bit of a boost as well because Madison was the best player on the pitch, I think. They Chelsea just couldn't get near him. but I mean after that Spurs found other ways to hurt Chelsea. I thought their left side Spurs' left side with Tal and Robertson, they did a really good job all game of doubling up on Achampong at times ev but even when Pedro Neto was tracking back and we all know he's a really hard working guy and he wi he will put in the hard yards he was just sort of too late to it and ro you know, ro we've seen Robertson over the years, he's one of the best at overlapping even when he is at this point of his career. So th they did really well and they caused Chelsea problems sort of all day down there and it's no surprise the second goal comes from Tao who I thought was really good yesterday. but yeah I mean f from I think Deserby said after the game that someone asked him something along the lines of what did you do sort of ta what have you done different tactically to get as such a good result today and he s he sort of said he played it down and said it was all the players but I think I I I think he's doing himself a disservice so I think he got the game plan sort of spot on. and maybe he he would have known that Alonso was sort of willing to give up possession. and yeah, I mean Spurs made the most of it. Just on the the Man United game next week what Kira mentioned. I yeah, I I don't see a world where you y you can do that. And like like like Pete said earlier, if you score the first goal really early on, which Chelsea have been doing for the most part of the season, then it's a different game. But if it's nil nil at half time, I mean the more it goes on, the more the more a team has the vast majority of the ball then the more they'll grow in confidence. So And we I mean we spoke at we spoke to Jabi on Friday at the pre match press conference and s Kieran asked him a question about the atmosphere And wanting to get like a really sort of big night in terms of how the fans feel, how it sounded. But it's like a it's a two way thing, right? And if Chel it they started the crowd started really well, but Chelsea gave him absolutely nothing, it felt like. so it was obviously gonna become a bit flat and that I mean the Spurs fans were singing songs about how quiet the atmosphere was, but in a way you can't really blame them because it w Chelsea on the pitch just gave him sort of very little to cheer. Peter Rutzler: And gave them a goal. Bobby Vincent: Yeah. Kieran Gill: I mean that was... Peter Rutzler: another goal conc conceded from a set player as well, which is just to sort the start out 'cause I've done my homework. See, I've done my homework, got my notes, you see. Eight eight from set pieces. That's double the more than anyone else in the league. we saw Austin McPhee throw players up the pitch here. Kieran, from these set plays which we've seen before. yeah. What did you make of it? Kieran Gill: Well, I've really enjoyed the most Scottish F-sic I've ever heard of my life. That was so good. think, was it Chelsea had a corner? Was it Henderson hit the first man? Didn't Bobby Vincent: Yeah. Kieran Gill: beat the first man. Bobby Vincent: It was a it it was really e everyone sort of seemed to go silent right at the Peter Rutzler: I think we all we all burst out laughing, didn't we? Bobby Vincent: you know you know when and you just heard him shout and I feel like everyone in the stadium sorta could hear him almost? It was good. Kieran Gill: Yeah, I mean, that's probably like you said about the atmosphere, it's not a good sign when you can hear the set-piece coach loudly shout, F-sic. But yeah, that was amusing. But when Chelsea were defending corners, yeah, they sent four players up the pitch, didn't they? Who was it? Cole Palmer, Quendip, Rodgers, Neto, I think the usually ones. I guess that was to ease congestion in the box and partially to help Penders. Because I know we, myself included, lot of us blew smoke up his backside in the build up, you know, saying what great potential he has. He does have great potential. But I think a lot of us mentioned in the pieces as well that Cross is a bit of a vulnerability or a work in progress rather. Peter Rutzler: Yeah, we flagged that, didn't we, on the first podcast as well. Kieran Gill: Yeah, so he'd done all right to be fair in the game. He cleared a cross within two minutes, denied Mamouche, saved from Tell and then he chucked the ball into his own goal. you know, what can you, I mean, I watched back at the goal. Lacroix didn't help because he was supposed to be marking, I think it was Jean-Paul Van Hek and he's the one. Peter Rutzler: Yeah, Van Heck's the one who challenges him, yeah. Kieran Gill: Yeah, he just had a free run at Pender's, Lacroix. He just sort of, he was blocked and he just didn't stay with him. So Van Hecke just had a free run at this 21 year old goalie. And yeah, it just, you know, what can you say? Can we try and blame the rain? Just, you just Peter Rutzler: Ha ha ha. Kieran Gill: tried to punch it. Bobby Vincent: Wet slippery gl wet slippery gloves. Kieran Gill: Yeah, the glove. Peter Rutzler: I mean it's part of the Premier League's physicality as well, 'cause as you said, like Van Heek it is a challenge, isn't it, on the keeper and I think in some leagues you you just that's a f it would be given as a foul. It's never gonna be given as a foul in the Premier League. Bobby Vincent: It sh it should have gone down, he probably would've got 'cause ki keepers do seem to get this sort of ridiculous protection, so maybe he would've. Peter Rutzler: Maybe that would have put a way out of it. Kieran Gill: I felt sorry for him. I think I felt sorry for him because is there a worse way to mark your full debut in the Premier League? An own goal by punching the ball backwards into your own net against Tottenham. Yeah, I felt bad for him. I mean, I guess we're going to see what he's made of because he's going to have to play Liverpool next, then Man United, then Sunderland. So he's going to be needed. He'll have to shake it off and just say, look, I'm a goalie. That's what happens. Peter Rutzler: We saw we saw Martinez, didn't pitch side before the game, looked I mean, I turned to Bob and said, he look he looks okay and it's like Well how do you know what his jaw's like? Bobby Vincent: Yeah. Kieran Gill: Yeah. Peter Rutzler: Which was a very fair point. but yeah, you're right, they're gonna rely on him. Kieran Gill: I mean, do you, I mean, with Martinez, do you think there's an extra consideration? You know, you can come back wearing a mask. We see players do that. But when you're a goalie, is that not a bit risky as well? Because you're a lot more prone to pranks. So Chelsea might be desperate to have him back. But if he's got a jaw injury and he's wearing a mask, he's a lot more, you know, he might get bashed into a lot more vulnerable to that. Bobby Vincent: Yeah, and I feel I think other teams would be aware of that as well and like sort of target him at corners 'cause he might be a bit hesitant to sort of, you know, come out and punch it. But yeah, it's weird it it's a weird one. He did, Peter Rutzler: Sanchez wore a mask, didn't he, at one point, I think. Bobby Vincent: yeah, but he for a well, for a couple of weeks was it? I feel like it was more than one game, wasn't it? Peter Rutzler: Yeah. But that can be psychological sometimes just to help. But we've talked a lot about Chelsea and reacting to setbacks in our writing for a while. Didn't really react particularly well to this one. which takes us to our old friend ill discipline. Kieran, you mentioned in a previous podcast about the Everton game and players bubbling over. You'll notice I'm avoiding the questions I asked Xavi Alonso before the game. about Chelsea's improving disciplinary record. yeah. Kieran Gill: Yeah, what did you ask him Pete? What did you ask him? Remind me. Peter Rutzler: I just I I just I just I just said we haven't really asked you about discipline very much. You've obviously got a big game tomorrow. What are you doing to improve that record? And Kieran Gill: you Peter Rutzler: and and that's not wrong, right? Like they that they had five Kieran Gill: Yeah. Peter Rutzler: at this point last season they've had five red cards. It's certainly helped, I think, having players like Jordan Henderson, like Emiliano Martinez, like Danny Wellbeck in the group, just to sort of marshal those moments. To avoid more stupid yellow cards, for games to run away from them and and then here we obviously saw Cole with two two poor yellow cards. I think the first one could easily have been a red card. I there's been a lot of debate about that. I think Morgan Rogers could easily have had a a red card in this game as well for a challenge on Connor Gallagher. What did we make of that, those moments, guys? Is is this is this back? Is this problem still here? Kieran Gill: It felt like a flashback to last season under Maresca. mean, even you talked about Madison, he was replaced by Connor Gallagher, former Chelsea. And we've seen before how Chelsea players like trying to rough up the odd alumnus, you know, usually it was Enzo Fernandez who would go around trying to kick the former Chelsea player. You know what I'm talking about. But then, you know, Palma's second yellow stands on Gallagher, then Rodgers gives Gallagher a kick in, which I think Gary Neville on Sky reckoned deserved a red. So just all gave glimpses back to last year. You just can't have any sympathy with Palmer. He deserved his first yellow for Barjana Fernandes when he grabbed the ball to kill the Chelsea attack. think maybe Palmer's frustration may have partially lied in how he'd hardly had a chance to get a laptop number. And then all of sudden Fernandes grabbing the ball has just stopped him from having a chance to stretch his legs and perhaps have a shot on goal. So he reacted angrily, deserved yellow and then he stood on Conor Gallagher and it was an obvious second yellow despite Chelsea players protesting and Palmer shaking his head as he went down the tunnel. So just, yeah, it just gave me flashbacks to last season when we were having to ask Enzo Maresca about ill discipline every other week. Bobby Vincent: Yeah, and it you got Peter Rutzler: What did what did Alonso say about it, Bob? 'Cause obviously Kieran and I we went straight to the mix zone, didn't we? And it didn't go well. We just got pretty damp and had a brief chat with Jan Paul Van Hecker. But apart from that, it did it didn't go too well. What did Bobby Vincent: It's Peter Rutzler: what what did Alonso say? Bobby Vincent: You haven't read my t transcript then? No, that's fine. Peter Rutzler: I I have I have read it but you know like the the folks at home don't get the transcript do they unless they unless they go Actually no they do, they can. They c they d Bobby Vincent: Well I h I hope I read in it. Peter Rutzler: they can. But tell the tell the people what they want to hear mate. Bobby Vincent: No, I was actually just like delaying 'cause I was trying to think what you said. Peter Rutzler: Ha ha. Bobby Vincent: I think he he was asked more specifically about Palmer and if there was any sort of concern over his character, 'cause I think I think we might have referenced it on last week's pod, the that he was sort of flirting with a second yellow Everton. and then I mean There is an argument. I don't necessarily agree that he could have been sent off for the first yellow last night. I think it was something in between a yellow and a red that, to be honest. But I mean the fact he did that, he did, you know, get a bit lucky. And then I mean the second challenge is just so so stupid in my opinion and like yeah, completely deserved but and Alonso sorta said There isn't a concern but this is a this is this can be a learning curve for Cole. it needs to be a learning moment and Yeah, he played down that there's a concern, but he did say, you know, he has to do a lot better here and he accepted Javi accepted that it was a he said he hadn't seen it back. 'Cause they have like that little screen at the side, right? They have I always see them go over and like look for like Kieran Gill: Thank you. Bobby Vincent: when it's a contentious decision, but yeah, they always say they haven't seen it. I guess it's just a tactical thing. Peter Rutzler: I'm I mean if they missed it, th there was the I did enjoy the the sort of handbags that obviously we got a really good view of 'cause obviously the dugouts are right in front of the the press box. it just it sort of kicked off, didn't it? We had De Zerby flying in. I I saw the fourth official's board sort of hit the deck as he runs in to try and separate separate people. I think it was Sebas Perillo, I think, was being held back at one point, was particularly irate on Alonso's staff. I think De Zerbi did get booked, didn't he? I don't I think it was just De Zerbi that got booked. Kieran Gill: Thank Bobby Vincent: Yeah. I think Pi Peria Peter Rutzler: For that. Bobby Vincent: got booked as well. I think I mean I might be wrong, but I think they were the only two staff to be booked and then there was Van Hecker, Palmer and Fernandez were the players who got booked. Because Van Hecker got booked for the initial foul. I think they played advantage and then Fernandez grabbed the ball, as Kieran just mentioned. But yeah, that that was good. It was a bit it was a bit chaotic to try and keep up with 'cause as we were all doing, we were trying to file copy on the whistle and that was quite cause at the time was it nil nil? Or was it one nil? I think it was nil-nil. I think it was nil nil. Peter Rutzler: I think it was I think it was Bobby Vincent: 'Cause I think Spurs scored like a about five minutes later. But anyway. And when it was nil nil at the time we were all sort of, you know, looking for angles to write about and that was quite a big moment in the game. And then there were more to come later on, so it almost got forgotten about. I mean, I don't think it was even asked in the postmatch press conference in the end. It was quite a quite a short one. with Alonso. I think Kieran Gill: I last, I think on our last podcast, I mentioned how I quite like this new edge to Cole Palmer. And I do, I still think it's quite good to see him being less nonchalant, you know, trying to get involved, showing a bit of passion and stuff. But I mean, he just, he stepped over the mark this time, didn't he? He was too silly. Because at Everton last week, he was firm with the second yellow, as we said. And then Henderson had a word with him after full time, presumably telling him this was out of it and, know, don't be so silly that you're going to get a second yellow, but it obviously didn't sink in. This time, you just, two deserved yellows, which, yeah. Peter Rutzler: Yeah, I think we also it's interesting you said Henderson 'cause you could Henderson also sort of pulling him away. I suppose the concern is like I think of the front three, Palmer's form hasn't probably been as strong. We've had some good flashes, haven't we, from him? but there is a sort of they're still waiting for him to really ignite again. the combinations we've seen with him and Jar Pedro and Rogers have been great, but it doesn't help him, does it, I don't think. Kieran Gill: I mean, you Peter Rutzler: Obviously. Kieran Gill: think Esteval is going to get his chance now, isn't he? Surely, the way at Liverpool, basically in the Palme position, you'd think that right-sided number 10, essentially. mean, if you're Esteval, what are you thinking? You're thinking this is my chance. You know, he's been watching Cole Palme. Like you say, he's been part of a very good front three, but he hasn't... set the world alight, shall we say, know, signed his new deal and since then he hasn't been crazy good, been the palmer good that we know he can be. So what are you thinking, if you're a rest of that? Peter Rutzler: Well Bobby Vincent: he he he's sorry Pete. He has to he has to think that. He has to think that it's his opportunity, but there there might be something at the back of his mind that tells him it's not really because I I I just don't see a world where Palmer's not starting Man United next week. And I mean it was good to see Esther Vell get more minutes yesterday. I think it was the first time right in the league that he played he's come on with more than ten minutes. to play and I mean the raw when he came on at Stamford Bridge yesterday, we I think we spoke about it at the time. It almost felt like in and I might be reading too much into this, but almost felt like a sort of message to Alonso that like you need to give this guy more minutes. Like the fans it the rule was like something it's what you'd expect if Cole Palmer came on basically. And like but 'cause 'cause they just haven't really seen much of Esteval and he he came on with I think about twenty minutes to go or bi maybe a bit more. And it was such a loud noise. It almost felt like a message to Alonso, like, look, you need to give this lab more minutes. and he came on he I think he he started well, he almost I think he almost scored one of his first touches, but yeah, it w it there wasn't a it wasn't a brilliant cameo, but I think that was more game state than anything else. I mean, Ch ch Chelsea were just nowhere near it and sort of special. Peter Rutzler: It was the most minutes he's had, wasn't it? And I guess that kinda spoke to the the position Chelsea sort of found themselves in. Again, it com it does come back to like the selection just was so revealing, wasn't it? Just because of the fact that Wellbeck didn't play. Quenda went in ahead of Esteval. And you'd think maybe you with Esteval, like he Is it something to do with his position, which we talked about last time? Is it to do with some the way he plays? He's quite a an individual player, isn't he? Likes to create things by in his own on his own, really, like to grab games himself. Is that something that's been worked on with Alonso? Like it's it's it's interesting, isn't it? And you'd you'd hope that and probably Chelsea need that he has an impact against Liverpool in the week. just just to also just just on the back of the palm, I think, put a bit of pressure on those guys. Like Be like, look, there's a f there's another guy here who can can win games, can be part of this attacking lineup. Like that that's something that he should be wanting to do and Lonzo kind of probably will will need him to do. Just on the the the second goal as well, guys, because obviously the first goal goes in goes in, Chelsea go down to to ten men, it's a pretty drastic nine minutes or so, isn't it? and then Matistell scores this remarkable goal. What did you make of The way that goal happened itself because I think from y you had Tell cover a lot of ground, but I did also find it interesting that one, I think it's Colwell who's bringing the ball out at the time and then plays it to a champong. It kinda kinda sells him a little bit there. I mean a champong had had a tough afternoon because he'd been so busy because clearly Spurs were targeting his side. But also the way Tell goes past Lacroix as well look quite straightforward. Kieran Gill: Yeah, wasn't the defenders didn't cover themselves in glory. It was just Yeah You got away from Achenpong didn't he was trying to chase him and you could see you could see Achenpong Just don't foul him don't foul him. He he didn't want to bring him down So he was kind of trying to make sure he didn't ride his back and then but I think it was more alarming the way he just stepped inside of La Croix that was very good defending from your summer signing centre back. So that was... Peter Rutzler: Do we need to do we need to take like more focus onto the the back three itself a little bit? Because obviously we talked about the keepers, we've talked a lot about the midfield. But with do we feel like this back three is is settled? You know, I know we praised Joshua Champong for the way he's he's slotted in it at at the right side of centre back. Clearly Spurs saw that as a weakness here. But also LaCroix in the middle, I mean when you look at some of his stats, he's not winning loads of his duels. I think I saw a statistic before this weekend, it was like two out of nine or something like that recently. Which is for someone who was good at that at Palace, that feels quite unusual. and then obviously on the other side you've got Colwill who was really good as the central centre back. That was Moreska's way of using him, right? When they had the possession and when they build up in a three, he'd be the guy in the middle and that caused such drama, didn't it, a year ago when Colwell got injured and Moreska said, I don't have another central centre back. But we're not seeing a Colwill play in that in that role. Bobby Vincent: Yeah. agree with that on Coldwell. Like to in my basic mind. Cold Will seems to suit the central role a lot more just with yeah, like you say, his passing I j I just watched the 'cause that when that tail goal went in, it was like sort of I had my head down so I hadn't really seen it back properly. I sort I w watched it back Peter Rutzler: You're busy. Bobby Vincent: once last night. It's just watched it back again. Yeah, that that LeCroix like lunge just looks like a really tired sort of half assed lunge really. It's a it's really poor. And I I think you're right, I think Quiet Lee he's not been amazing, especially more recently. I think he started well, didn't he? I thought that even in the games against Fulham, first game of the season I thought he was really good, even though he conceded a couple and I think the Brighton went after as well. But Quiet Lee has not been amazing. I I think Achin Pong out of the three has probably impressed the most, especially Not necessarily yesterday, but the last two games after Pete National break. and he sort of made that position his own and took Fafana out of the picture a bit. But I mean it's a big it's a big chance we're talking about for Esther that's a big chance for Fafana who you'd expect to start on Wednesday night as well. 'Cause we he's almost been forgotten about, hasn't he? So But there's definitely room for improvement with the back three. I mean w we sort of When Moises Kaisado was out, we sort of blamed the defence on Kaisedo not being there. Now he's back and there are some of the issues still remain. I mean, we spoke about Chelsea we asked the question if they turned the corner after the Everton win, and that was obviously really good, to get a clean sheet at a t tough place, but I think yesterday you some of the issues were still there. Back free doesn't look amazing. but yeah. I mean there's definitely Peter Rutzler: Where do you think where so where where where do we think Chelsea are right now? Because it's I don't know about you guys, but it is quite frustrating because you have it goes in like these peaks and troughs, right? And then you'll after a peak, there's always a conversation you'll have with with other people in other you'll see it I think with people who don't watch the team all the time, and I imagine supporters probably feel the same way, where it's like, are they gonna win the league? And it's kind of felt I think from preseason is like probably not. They're not they're Kieran Gill: Thank you. Peter Rutzler: not there. They finished tenth last year, they've made some changes. We don't really know what Alonso's football's gonna look like. This again sort of reinforces that. They're still in the top four as it stands, but Kieran Gill: Thank Peter Rutzler: where where are Chelsea? Like w how good are they? And and and are they, I think fundamentally, is Kieran Gill: Thanks. Peter Rutzler: it based on a couple of players where it can just all fall apart quickly? Is do you take Jiao Pedro out of the team and it falls apart? If you take Moises Caicedo out of the team, does it Kieran Gill: Thank Peter Rutzler: fall apart? Is that is that where we are, do you think? Bobby Vincent: I yeah, I mean I don't know. Yeah. Peter Rutzler: Ha ha. Kieran Gill: Cool. Thanks for listening everybody. Peter Rutzler: Lovely. Right, we'll wrap it up there, lads. Cheers. Nice seeing ya. Bobby Vincent: I yeah, 'cause it it does feel like you take a couple of steps forward and one back a lot of the time. but try to th I think to be fair to Chelsea there's a there's a lot of teams in the Premier League like this at the moment where you're not quite sure where they are. sort of bar Arsenal really, maybe Man City, but then Man City as a club, you know. but with Chelsea it's like like you said, they did finish tenth last season and we w I think sometimes The fan curs of Jabbi Alonso coming in with such a stellar reputation and you know, he's a very likable guy. And we we all expect him to do well, I think, eventually. But like w so I think some people almost expect them to skip a massive step and just, you know, be challeng like to be challenging for the title. Th there's a chance they c could be sort of in and around there, but I'm not sure they'll ever be challenging for it, if you know what I mean. Like they could b there's a chance they could finish second or third, for example, but I don't expect them to be toe to toe with whoever the Premier League winners eventually become and then you know, it's probably gonna be Arsenal. Peter Rutzler: just thrown up the the league table and so the three points behind Brighton obviously still to play but Brighton's goal difference is sixteen better sixteen better we're only seven games Bobby Vincent: Brighton are the best team in the world, in fairness. Peter Rutzler: well but it's as just as a point of reference obviously City have got a goal difference of eleven like do do we do we also know what Kieran what we're getting from Alonso at this point I mean that in terms of we've we've seen They've had g good fast starts, they've scored a few from set plays, also conceded a lot and they don't really dominate the ball. Is is is this what we're gonna is this Alonso's football? Do we w or do you feel like we've still got a long way to to go before we know exactly what his his team looks like? Kieran Gill: I think it's massively a work in progress. think Alonso himself seems to be reiterating that. He keeps saying to say it's a process. I think in his interview with Carraghe, he kind of reiterated or he hammered home that, you know, we're not there yet. It's going to take time. you know, a lot of managers say that, but I mean, Alonso has managed eight Premier League matches and A like yous, I'm not really sure where Chelsea are. I mean, start the season when you have to do your predictions. I think I put Chelsea second. I probably wouldn't put them second now. I put them top four. I still think they'll get top four, I think. But Alonso himself is kind of not pleading. He's just asking for patience, I think. And I think that's fair enough when he's so it's still early in the season, still early in his time at Chelsea. Do you agree, Pete? Peter Rutzler: I I well I predicted they finished fourth. I think they they they had enough for the Champions League. I th th the qu we like the quality of the attack when it's there is brilliant. But th clearly beneath that it's it's not particularly strong. And I do I do think I mean the one that like facing Tottenham i like I was saying before, it feels like the more you reflect on it 'cause a real emotional aspect to losing to Tottenham, but there's a Chelsea managers don't lose to To Tottenham. I think we we were talking about this, weren't we, in the mix zone. We're trying to work out who the last coach was. I think it's Sari, isn't it? When when Spurs was Conte was it Conte? In Bobby Vincent: No, it's content. Twenty eighteen, yeah. Kieran Gill: No, Conti. Peter Rutzler: 2018. That's a long time ago. It's like a it's kind of a a prerequisite. And I I think this is the first game where I've looked at it and gone, what is Alonso doing here? Is it just because of some of the the decisions? And I think this was probably one this might have been probably his worst. his worst game so far. And I think it only Kieran Gill: the Peter Rutzler: does reiterate just how how much more work is to be done. 'Cause I I don't I'm still not convinced he wants his team to play with this little amount of possession, even though it did feel quite it feels quite deliberate that he's doing it. And I don't I don't i it just it doesn't I'm just not sure what he's trying to make the team look like. And he's he's talked before and I think it was a week before or maybe it was a couple of weeks before. I just asked him like, you're not having any control in these games, it feels like. how hard is it adjusting to the Premier League? And he said, like I'm still Kieran Gill: Thank Peter Rutzler: learning. I'm still learning how to to for my what my team's gonna look like and what what it takes to control games and accept the fact that we're not gonna Kieran Gill: It's a beautiful. Peter Rutzler: control lots of games. But this feels quite extreme in the other way, doesn't it? Like it's it's Kieran Gill: I mean, I mean, you know, the Tottenham game, the first goal, there were individual errors. Chelsea fans to the right of the press box were having a right go at the referee's assistant because they were sure Salanke was offside in the build-up to that corner being won. He was onside, he was played on by Colwell. I mean, at one point after the goal went in as well, the fourth official told the Chelsea member of staff to go. get a Lucas headbutt off that looked like it had been chucked towards the line or. And so that was one mistake, you know, playing Salah and Kion, then it goes to the corner, Lacroix leaves Van Hek. Another mistake. And then Pender comes and punches clear only to send the ball into his own goal. A third mistake. So catalog of errors. But if that goal doesn't go in, who knows? We might be sat here saying it finished on nil. at least Chelsea showed control or Chelsea might have nicked a goal and won it and we'll be saying, you know, we'll be talking about Alonso's approach a lot differently. But it's still, yeah, if someone asked me to describe Alonso's playing style, I don't think it's not the easiest style to sum up in a few words, I don't think. Peter Rutzler: No, 'cause p just because of the nature of the games, right? I mean they've been so like they it's like they go direct. There is there is pressing. But there's de it's definitely no sense of control. Like I just it it it's I mean it felt very, very apparent because of how much Tottenham controlled the game here and how good Madison was just creating those overloads in the middle constantly. But it just I just don't know if that's the d the direction of traveling. And whether it was, as we talked about, just the fact that you put Quenda in there and suddenly it's a different dynamic. I know it changed after half time and Quenda went wide and Neto was wide and it was just a more four three three. But it just yeah. It it it it feels very much still he's feeling his way into the job, right? Still feeling his way into the team and yeah, I d I definitely don't think that's Kieran Gill: Which I think is understandable. People are always going to be reactive. you'll probably see a few people online saying you should be going at losing a spurs, that's sackable offence or something. I don't agree with that at all. It's still early days. What did he sign? A five year contract with an option of a six, something like that. Bobby Vincent: Four? Fouya, I think. Was that four? I think it was four years. Kieran Gill: for you. He's a few months into his time at Chelsea and it's going to take time. I know we can kind of roll our eyes when managers start saying it's going to take time, please be patient, et cetera, et cetera. But I do think it applies in this case. Bobby Vincent: a hund a hundred percent. I mean I don't wanna I don't wanna say it 'cause everyone always says it, but the Arteta the Arteta example is the obvious one. Jogan Klopp at Liverpool. I mean Alonso as well, you gotta realise, hasn't managed in the Premier League before. Now he's a big thing. this league at the moment is so weird, I think. Like it's like it's never been before in terms of the the physicality or the the the way that like I I think Alonso said the other day as well is like this is the case with most sets of fans but like you want you want your team to be more controlled but then the fa the fans want them to be more you know, explosive and I mean Chelsea have been that for the most part of the season, explosive, but they haven't been controlled. Weirdly, I think probably one of unless I'm wrong one of the most controlled they've looked was the first half against Brentford and the game was just so boring. it was nil nil Yeah. Peter Rutzler: Mm. Yeah, that was a really weird game, wasn't it? Because I like I reaction obviously I I wasn't there for that game, but watching it at home, I thought this is actually one of their best halves of the season. And everyone Bobby Vincent: Yeah. Peter Rutzler: else was just sort of losing their minds about how boring it was. And but actually it just felt like they were yeah, it was Bobby Vincent: But that's what Alonso wanted, wasn't it? Yeah. Peter Rutzler: just like this this has taken a while, but they're actually a bit more measured. And I Bobby Vincent: So Peter Rutzler: just I did in this game it just didn't feel like 'cause like the first half, yes, it was nil-nil, but here it just felt like it it wasn't control, you know. It felt like this was Spurs' game, whereas at Brentford it was like Brentford are under control, there's nothing's gonna happen. But here it was when a Spurs gonna score. Bobby Vincent: Yeah, so I so I think that f I think you asked earlier what what does the London star look like. I think in an ideal world, that first half against Brentford with a with a bit more with just a bit more going forward, they obviously didn't have Jail Pedro that day. But like they were able to make the The Alonso said I think a couple of weeks before, like, he w he'd rather win a game where it'd be boring than when it's so entertaining. And that game w that first half was boring and then the second half was ridiculous. I can't remember what happened now, but it w was the complete opposite. but so yeah, I think that is kind of what he wants, just to be able to and it might not be something that pleases all fans because, you know, f fans fans can b can get bored with that sort of style, but it's just a re I think it's really hard to control games in the Premier League full stop at the moment. especially with like the the sort of reliance on set pieces as well. the last couple of seasons, the the way a game can just swing with just one moment. but yeah, I mean, like you guys have said, very early days, he's still finding his way into his league. He he said like like Karen said, he said to Carragher that they'll Chelsea will look a completely different team in May. I'm interested to see what that team will look like and s sort of how much it's improved. And you know, we're expecting at least one move in January, I'd say, in the midfield, so yeah, let's see. Peter Rutzler: Next up obviously is is Liverpool midweek. I think Bob, you're there, aren't you? You're going to Anfield. Kieran, you're not, I don't think. Kieran Gill: Nah. Peter Rutzler: No and I rarely travel north of Watford. So Bob you'll be definitely back on Thursday. I think we'll do another another episode to sort of debate the the ins and outs of what's what's been going on, how that game goes. It's actually quite important, isn't it, really, the the Caribbean Cup, because there is no midweek football otherwise. And when you do have this Kieran Gill: Thank Peter Rutzler: this kind of time and and space, you you want cup runs. And Chelsea Bobby Vincent: Y Peter Rutzler: haven't won a domestic trophy for quite a while. Bobby Vincent: Yeah, I know. I'm I'm looking forward to this week 'cause it's like w we've had so many weeks of just no football in midweek for for us as Chelsea reporters. so it almost feels like we're playing European football again. And Liverpool's so far away that it's basically like it's like you're going to Poland a lot. But yeah, I mean it was weird because I think i he went for the last couple of rounds he went Alonso went stronger than we expected against Luton, if I remember rightly. And then weaker than then then you'd expect him to sort of do similar in the next round. Then he went quite weak and then had to change make all those changes at half time. So I'm interested to see what he does. I I don't think Iroyola will go very strong. So he he might he might expect that as well. So he might expect Liverpool to make a lot of changes, 'cause that's what he did against Tottenham in the last round. So I I I d I think Chelsea probably have a stronger second team to Liverpool. I think so it'll be interesting to see how how that does if that is the case. But like the likes of Morgan Rogers, who just seems to play every game, sort of every minute of every game, he he's probably gonna play I think you've got a class gel Pedro as a doubt at this point. 'Cause ho hopefully not. Hopefully, you know, h his scan later today on Sunday will show it's not that bad but And obviously Cole Palmer suspended, so it's gonna be a much changed Chelsea team. but I I think it's important for Alonso in terms of a cup run, you know, getting a getting a day out of Wembley, maybe winning his first trophy as Chelsea manager. but equally it's not the end of the world. And it might feel like that, especially 'cause they just lost the Spurs as well. But it's not Peter Rutzler: And and Kieran obviously emotional going back to Anfield. Obviously there's lot of talk about whether he would go there at some point anyway. But yeah, that'd be it's a home coming of sorts for him. Kieran Gill: Yeah and I'm sure we'll be asking him a fair few questions along those lines on Tuesday when the press conference will be. So yeah and I'm sure he'll have nice words and it'll be a lovely experience for him. One thing I'll save it for the press actually I was about to reveal what I'm gonna ask but then one I've used to might steal it. Bobby Vincent: Yeah, I don't Peter Rutzler: I'm not gonna be there Tuesday. I'm I'm I'm getting I'm genuinely I'm taking a boat somewhere tonight. So yeah, but it's not it's not Kieran Gill: yeah, yeah. For work. Peter Rutzler: for a ch for work, yeah, and it's not it's not Chelsea related. it's it's a different feature, but I'm just glad the the weather's improved because I feel like I might have g gone down with the ship. Kieran Gill: Yeah. Well. Bobby Vincent: Has has it improved? Peter Rutzler: Well, that's where I am. It's beautiful where I am, Bob. I mean it doesn't look like you have any windows in your Bobby Vincent: I did, very well left, but Peter Rutzler: Room where you record this. Bobby Vincent: to be fair it looks bit better. It's not raining anyway, but it's just grey. Kieran Gill: Yeah, well I'm Peter Rutzler: Test of the Kieran Gill: going to go pumpkin picking. Going to take my son Bobby Vincent: Yeah, today, right? Kieran Gill: pumpkin picking. Bobby Vincent: So Liverpool Brighton of Fay and then Peter Rutzler: Living the high life. Bobby Vincent: you're going pumpkin booking. Kieran Gill: Yeah, yeah, I'm going to miss some of the afternoon footy to go and pick some pumpkins with my son. So. Peter Rutzler: Isn't that sweet? What a lovely note to end on. Bobby Vincent: Yeah, very sweet. So I'm like Kieran Gill: Do you want to come, Bobby Vincent: no, no, you're right, mate. You're right. Kieran Gill: All right. Bobby Vincent: I'm not Peter Rutzler: if you have any questions or stuff we actually have socials and things. Bobby's been all over that, haven't you, Bob? You've got us on Twitter, Instagram. We've got an email, which is Chelsea PressroomPod at gmail dot com which you can send questions to us for. Bobby Vincent: I don't know. Peter Rutzler: Well I don't okay. well y you know the what about the the you know the Twitter and Instagram handles? Bobby Vincent: yeah. Yeah. the Twitter one Yeah, yeah I know. Peter Rutzler: You gotta sell it, Bob. We're trying to sell a podcast. Come on. Bobby Vincent: the Twitter one is at CF C CFC Press Pod. well we'll leave it in the description I think, right? I think we can do that. I think you could you can definitely do it on YouTube, Peter Rutzler: Yeah, we'll we'll leave it in the we'll leave it in the description. Bobby Vincent: I think can do it on Spotify. Yeah, no w no worries. Kieran Gill: Nice save, Pop. Peter Rutzler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well done. Nice work there, Bob. but yeah, if you Kieran Gill: Well done. Peter Rutzler: want to get in touch with us, then just email us your questions. Be good to get some questions actually, 'cause then I can quiz the others on stuff. we'll be back on Thursday. I think we'll help get a couple of new faces on as well, which will be quite fun. there are more reporters in the press room than just us. Isn't that remarkable? Not that you'd know. but yeah, Kieran Gill: Thanks. Peter Rutzler: we'll see you next time. Kieran Gill: Bye bye.