Latest / The Original Self Podcast / Episode 12 Part 2: The Witness- True Crime Obsession Explained | What Happens When You Stop Watching and Walk into the Room

Transcript

Episode 12 Part 2: The Witness- True Crime Obsession Explained | What Happens When You Stop Watching and Walk into the Room · The Original Self Podcast

0:13
Welcome to the Original Self Podcast. I'm Evet
0:16
DeCota, owner of DeCota Life Coaching and a psychology
0:19
-informed life coach, exploring resilience, mindset,
0:23
and the courage to become your authentic self.
0:26
This is a space for honest conversations about
0:29
growth, identity, relationships, and all the
0:33
messy moments in between that shape who we become.
0:36
Between the salon chair and coaching sessions,
0:39
I watch people move through life in patterns
0:41
they rarely notice. Patterns that are subtle,
0:45
familiar, and incredibly hard to see from the
0:48
inside. Today, we're talking about one of the
0:52
most fascinating and under -examined patterns
0:54
of our time. A pattern that most of us share
0:57
and almost none of us question. This is Episode
1:01
12, Part 2, True Crime Obsession Explained. What
1:06
happens when you stop watching and actually walk
1:10
into the room? Hello and welcome back. Last week
1:25
in part one, we went into the deep psychology
1:28
behind our true crime obsession. The evolutionary
1:33
science of morbid curiosity. Why women are specifically
1:37
and rationally drawn to this genre. The dopamine
1:42
loop that makes these stories impossible to put
1:44
down. And finally, the costs that accumulate
1:48
when we consume it without consciousness. If
1:52
you haven't listened to part one yet, I'd encourage
1:55
you to start there. It will make everything you
1:58
hear today land very differently for you. Today,
2:03
we are going somewhere that part one never took
2:06
us. Not into that research, but into the actual
2:11
room. My guest took the relationship with true
2:16
crime further than most of us ever will. She
2:19
didn't watch the Lori Vallow Daybell sentencing
2:23
on a screen. She got on a plane, booked a hotel,
2:27
drove to the courthouse in Idaho, where a woman
2:33
who murdered her own children received her sentence.
2:39
What she found there, what it did to her, what
2:43
it could not have prepared her for, is what this
2:47
episode is about. My guest today is Rhonda Gaines,
2:51
a close friend of mine and someone I've known
2:54
for 43 years. She's sharp, honest, and... is
3:01
someone who, like me, has always been drawn to
3:05
the more complicated corners of the human mind
3:08
and human behaviors. My fascination with her
3:14
going to this case, what compels the person to
3:17
cross that line from follower to witness? What
3:22
do you find when the documentary's gone and the
3:24
music stops? It's just a room full of people.
3:29
and the unmediated reality of what one human
3:33
being did to two others who called her mom. I
3:38
asked Rhonda to come on today because I think
3:40
the answer to those questions gets at the heart
3:43
of everything we're exploring in this episode.
3:45
I think what she experienced in that room is
3:48
something that no podcast, no docuseries, and
3:53
obviously no Reddit thread could have given her
3:56
or us without her going. Hi, Rhonda. Yvette.
4:02
Hello. I'm so excited that you're here right
4:05
now. I'm excited to be here too. Thank you so
4:07
much for having me on your show. Yes, it's very
4:10
exciting. All right. So let's just start at the
4:14
very beginning. When did you first hear about
4:18
the Lori Vallow Daybell case? And what exactly
4:22
was the crime? I'd like you to tell us everything.
4:25
What got its hooks in you? Let's see. Okay. Well,
4:31
the very first time I heard about this case was
4:35
in the Costco parking lot at Vintage Oaks in
4:37
Novato, California. I ran into a girl from high
4:42
school randomly. Her name is Sonia Landy. I don't
4:46
know if you remember her. She's a hoot. Yeah.
4:49
She had a really like uncanny ability of just
4:52
she made her approach. I'd probably seen her
4:55
in about I'd maybe seen her in like 24, 25 years.
4:58
Maybe it was last time I'd seen her. She approached
5:00
me as if that had been a few minutes ago. Rhonda,
5:04
Rhonda. And she just saying hi. She wants to
5:07
know how everybody is. What have I been doing?
5:09
And I'm just kind of like quickly summarizing
5:10
25 years for her real quick. And then she wants
5:13
to know if I've heard of the Lori Vallow Daybell
5:17
case. That's random. It was pretty random. It
5:20
was pretty, pretty random. I hadn't heard of
5:22
it. and I was in it was such a halfway crazy
5:25
conversation anyway Costco parking lot Sonia
5:29
Landy so much time has gone by Sonia what the
5:32
fuck are you talking about and so she just started
5:36
to kind of go on about this really nutty case
5:39
she was following she was like it's all over
5:41
Facebook there's groups there's all this whatever
5:43
there's these missing kids there's these missing
5:45
kids out of Idaho everybody's looking for them
5:48
their mom's not saying where they are and I thought
5:52
whoa Okay, that's a trip. But I mean, it wasn't,
5:56
I didn't, I didn't pursue it. I didn't pursue
5:58
it. It was just a weird little interaction. And
6:01
I went on the following November. I think this
6:07
was over the summer that I ran into her. And
6:08
then in November 2023, I was at my cousin's wedding
6:13
in Mexico. And it was this beautiful wedding.
6:18
And I so don't drink alcohol. And the kids were
6:21
partying so hard and having fun. Whatever. Me
6:25
and my sober husband just kind of made our way
6:27
back to our little cabana. And we were just kind
6:33
of looking at the phones as the old folks do
6:35
in bed. And I just stumbled upon this funny little
6:39
Spotify thing by these two. sisters out of Idaho
6:44
and they called themselves the psychic sisters
6:46
and they had a podcast and they were covering
6:49
this case this was happening in their town so
6:53
all all this shit from this case was going down
6:55
in their little town and these ladies were so
6:57
awesome and so down home and I found them so
7:01
randomly They were like in their 40s. They were
7:05
extremely overweight potato people. They were
7:08
really just like, you're not going to believe
7:10
what blew into Rexburg this week. They just,
7:13
they were beside themselves with the media presence
7:16
and just, it was insanity. So they're just absolute
7:22
all in this. made you go what's going on here
7:25
like i need to know really interesting story
7:27
they started telling the story in a way that
7:30
just like two sort of idaho housewife hens can
7:34
kind of tell it right like you're drinking some
7:36
iced tea you're listening up they're laying down
7:40
the facts of this case so the facts of this case
7:43
are so tweaked it's it involves a cult -like
7:48
religion that is uh kind of created by this weird
7:52
prophet that lives in their town. He's an author
7:56
of kind of doomsday books. He's a self -published
7:59
guy. They just live in a... He's kind of... It's
8:04
a filtered, I'd say... Not a filtered, but a...
8:08
Like the FLDS is a fragment of the Mormon faith.
8:12
So he starts calling his little... part of the
8:16
mormon faith the church of the firstborn and
8:19
it has things to do with really old school mormonism
8:22
like atonement like blood atonement uh what is
8:28
it called again when you marry like a bunch of
8:30
people so i'm getting a little bit of brain frog
8:33
at the moment polygamy and uh things of that
8:36
nature so just kind of weird beliefs he believes
8:38
that he was you know um kind of john john the
8:42
baptist in a past life and he's got all these
8:45
past life things and he starts telling women
8:47
you know hey we were like married before and
8:49
you were this biblical person and i was that
8:52
biblical person kind of starts getting this little
8:55
group together and it's mostly these mormon housewives
8:58
that are just feeling really moved by the spirit
9:03
of that they're really wanting they're wanting
9:06
to hear more about how sexy they were when they
9:08
were biblically with chad daybell in previous
9:12
slides pretty gross yeah so grass is another
9:16
way to describe so it's kind of a culty just
9:18
religion thing they form like a group but what
9:20
it comes down to is they end up the two of them
9:24
get together and murder his wife murder her husband
9:31
and then her children i didn't know that yeah
9:35
i didn't know yeah no there's there's more than
9:37
just the kids they got rid of the spouses too
9:39
they had excuse me insurance i don't talk my
9:44
throat dry they had insurance on everybody she
9:48
was i mean it was it was a money thing they were
9:52
saying they were putting you know pulling all
9:54
their money together for this church that they
9:56
were creating and and he convinced them that
10:00
the world was ending eh so like nobody was going
10:02
to be looking for them because like all these
10:03
bad earthquakes were going to be happening floods
10:06
fires etc and in a days he was this doomsday
10:10
guy yeah preppers the whole nine it's it's such
10:14
a but here's the thing Yvette at the end of the
10:17
day like you can look at all these variables
10:20
right growing up in a tight culture that is mormonism
10:23
this is what they grew up around it was very
10:26
provincial totally sheltered environment yes
10:29
okay so they've got this set of beliefs she's
10:34
a mom yeah she's a mom i that's where i couldn't
10:40
it never from the beginning when Sonia Landy
10:44
in the parking lot told me they can't find the
10:47
kids and the mom's not saying where they are
10:49
so right away I went oh well the kids are okay
10:53
the mom just doesn't want to say where they are
10:56
right because because you can't imagine no they
11:00
might and and this isn't like you know the kind
11:03
of case where you've got a mom that's like strung
11:06
out on drugs There's abandonment. There's negligence.
11:09
She's out of her head. And the kids end up in
11:13
foster care. It wasn't like I don't really know
11:18
where my kids are at because I'm so out of my
11:19
head. This was a soccer mom. This was an attractive
11:24
woman. This was a married woman. She had three
11:27
children. She grew up with strong family connections,
11:31
strong community connections. She was big in
11:33
her church. She was a gospel singer. She had
11:36
been on Wheel of Fortune. She had been in the
11:39
Miss Texas. Did she win? She won some money on
11:42
Wheel of Fortune. Did she win Miss Texas? She
11:44
did not. No, she did not. I think she, I don't
11:47
even know that she was a runner up, but she was
11:48
in Miss Texas. Strange correlations in the world
11:52
of killers in Wheel of Fortune. That might be
11:55
a later episode. But I don't know this. I'm going
12:01
to have to investigate this. Okay. So. this was
12:05
a woman that you see on a normal weekend with
12:09
her family out at the store out at the park out
12:14
of the ball game carting the kids around doing
12:17
the school drop -off you know this this nothing
12:20
made sense nothing made sense and that is what
12:23
piqued my interest now when November hit and
12:27
I was at that wedding started tooting it again
12:29
they had just found the kids okay and so Now
12:34
they knew they were dead. And those kids, if
12:38
I remember correctly, were in a grave in the
12:40
backyard of her husband's. Yeah, her new husband.
12:44
So they'd offed their spouses, married each other.
12:48
Right. The kids were buried on his property.
12:50
Yes. Okay. She, the daughter, who was, I guess
12:55
she was 15 at the time. Yeah. Was badly. burned
13:01
and dismembered and they couldn't tell even how
13:03
she had died oh my god the the little boy who's
13:08
seven forever uh was in pajamas he was in a in
13:16
a garbage bag that was then wrapped like um this
13:22
ducking tape all around all it mummified yeah
13:25
with ducking tape all around so crazy and they
13:28
had been there since September the previous.
13:32
Oh, so quite a couple. They'd been missing for
13:35
a long time. They'd asked her to show proof of
13:40
life of the kids. She did not. That's when they
13:42
had to arrest her. At that time, it was for abandonment
13:45
because she wasn't saying where they were. She
13:48
was in Hawaii, right? She was in Hawaii. That's
13:50
where they had planned to move. They just split.
13:53
She has another living son. They didn't tell
13:55
him where they were going. He's an adult. Right.
13:57
um and he has five children that are adults and
14:00
they split on them and just came to hawaii the
14:03
husband the husband had five yeah children yeah
14:05
so he kills her mom and they all stand by him
14:09
now it's uh oh well that's another fun yeah it's
14:12
it's it's it's a crazy story that it's so crazy
14:15
and there's even even so much more that has to
14:18
do with they collected money on them when they
14:21
were missing before people knew they were missing
14:24
they're getting out find me they were getting
14:26
ssi i know it was from their father's death they
14:29
were receiving benefits from that and also the
14:32
child was uh the younger son was autistic and
14:35
receiving state benefits so she was staying about
14:38
four thousand dollars a month on her dead children
14:40
just to live on and then they had received insurance
14:45
money from her husband's debt or no that was
14:49
the thing how they started, how it started unraveling
14:51
is he had actually saw that she'd gone on the
14:55
computer and tried to fuck around with the insurance.
14:57
So he actually, he put it for his sister to get
15:01
it. The son did that? Her husband. Her husband
15:06
did that. Oh, the husband she killed. Uh -huh.
15:08
Oh. So he died and the sister got it. And the
15:11
sister's like, I feel like you killed Charles.
15:15
Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh my good. Okay. So a lot of
15:19
people follow cases obsessively, right? I mean,
15:22
I hear my salon clients talk about it. I hear
15:25
my girlfriends talk about it. At what point did
15:29
you go from online to deciding I'm going to this
15:34
trial? I'm going to get on the plane, like I
15:38
said earlier, and I'm going to go to Idaho and
15:41
go to this trial. I think there were a lot of
15:44
parts to that question at the time. I do remember
15:46
when I booked the flight and the hotel room,
15:49
I was angry at my family. We were driving home
15:54
from Oregon and we'd been on a little family
15:57
trip that was really fun. And of course, I can't
16:00
remember. I was really annoyed. And I was like,
16:03
I'm fucking myself another goddamn trip. And
16:07
I'd had that thought, yeah, it'd be cool to go
16:11
see it, you know. And I was, you know, hoping
16:15
that it was going to be televised and then I'd
16:17
have the opportunity to do it that way. Well,
16:20
then it came out that they were going to play
16:22
audio of the day, of that day's court later in
16:28
the day. And it was kind of like, oh, well, I
16:32
was grateful for whatever insight I was going
16:33
to get. But I also really wanted to see, I wanted
16:37
to see the testimony. I wanted to see her. I
16:40
wanted to know. I wanted to know because there
16:44
was a lot of, she was basically saying, I know
16:48
nothing. I did nothing. This is crazy. This is
16:52
a whatever. I needed to know. I had to know.
16:56
So she, she pled not guilty the entire time.
16:59
And I never did. She's got five life sentences,
17:02
right? She's, she's been to three different trials.
17:05
The last two, she represented herself. Oh, she's
17:08
this woman. is a hoot and holler does she have
17:11
a law degree no no okay okay she's got a very
17:15
high degree of narcissistic traits that uh she
17:22
very histrionic yeah and also she was when she
17:26
was tested it was like an obsessive degree of
17:29
religiosity okay delusional schizoid thinking
17:33
sure sure so that was her final you know Final,
17:36
final. I didn't know these words in my mind.
17:39
I'm just thinking she either really didn't do
17:42
anything. Okay. She did something and she cannot
17:47
face it. And it's completely blocked. She repressed
17:51
it. Yeah. Or she knows what she's doing. Yeah.
17:54
I'm going to go with number three. That's what
17:55
it was. Yeah. But you know what? If that was
17:58
hard, I kind of wanted to sit in presence with
18:01
that. Right. It was wild to me because I had,
18:04
I'd followed cases of domestic violence or abandonment,
18:09
neglect, things like that, trauma -based things
18:11
that happen in families. This was so different.
18:15
This was something so evil. Yeah. This was evil.
18:20
Totally. And it was also something that I don't
18:23
think, I think it's awakened. I don't think that
18:26
this just pops up one day. I think that this...
18:31
woman was running with this her whole life and
18:35
and kind of with knowing this about her now and
18:39
looking back through her history it's quite interesting
18:43
so when you said awaken you just mean for her
18:47
you don't do you I mean it's a life I think oh
18:50
no god I really don't I and I really I really
18:54
hope not but end of the day I don't know I I
18:58
don't know that I I just feel that meeting this
19:05
man and kind of just where she was so she was
19:07
fired up on religion she's been reading his books
19:09
he writes all these doomsday books and and and
19:14
stories and talks about the future she's dreaming
19:16
of some kind of an apocalypse yeah where she's
19:20
one of the chosen ones because in this story
19:23
of their religion there's 144 000. chosen ones
19:28
that will remain and they're going to repopulate
19:30
the earth right so she was feeling pretty big
19:32
for her britches you know pretty sure she was
19:35
one of these i know i'm not i'm not even in the
19:38
bottom whatever it is are you serious repopulate
19:42
the earth send me back to space i don't want
19:45
no part of it i want no part of it like we're
19:50
going to restructure this thank you exactly so
19:54
Maybe she was idolizing Daybell at first, but
19:58
then because she was part of the scenario all
20:02
of her past lives. He really gassed her up. And
20:05
gassed her up into, you're definitely part of
20:08
this new earth that is coming. And together we
20:12
are stronger. And what we need to do is get obstacles
20:15
out of the way. And so they would call them kind
20:19
of zombies. They needed to make it like, ooh.
20:22
They're, they're, they're possessed. Yeah. So
20:25
they, the kids were showing signs of being possessed
20:28
by demons and such. So they, they, that's what
20:30
they needed to call it. And to murder these people.
20:35
But, you know. Interesting. So. I think I got
20:42
what you hope to get. Like you wanted to look
20:45
at her. You wanted to just check her out, right?
20:47
Yeah, I wanted to be there and I wanted to see
20:50
her reactions, her responses, her expressions.
20:52
I like studying like you. I enjoy behavior. I
20:55
enjoy micro expressions. I enjoy tone, cadence,
20:59
the whole thing. I want to be there. And I think
21:03
you're a big empath. I know we both are. And
21:07
I think sometimes we know things. before it ever
21:10
comes to the to light right and so i i would
21:15
think i'm putting words in your mouth that that
21:17
was another reason why you'd be there just to
21:19
like i want to feel this i want you to know and
21:23
it probably i think i knew that i would feel
21:25
the certainty exactly and there was a lot hanging
21:28
there but when i said before like hey there i
21:31
think there are so many reasons like i you know
21:33
in the moment of a spontaneous well i'm going
21:36
to take a little trip by myself i know that that
21:38
was in there yeah and then i do have a friend
21:41
that lives in idaho i thought it'd be fun to
21:43
see her one night okay And we did. We had dinner
21:46
and talked and stuff. I've never gone anywhere
21:48
by myself like that. I'm not playing to a different,
21:51
you know, thing for no reason other than to just
21:53
explore something I find interesting. And I thought
21:56
that that was pretty fucking liberating. I tell
21:58
you, I think it's super cool. I had these like
22:00
little Italian shoes. OK, so I bought clothes
22:03
for court. That was something else that I felt
22:05
strongly about. I wanted to dress and I wanted
22:07
to look like I belonged there. And so a couple
22:11
of really fun things happened. So I did. I had
22:14
some nice slacks. I bought myself some Italian
22:17
loafers, and I did have some pretty blouses,
22:20
hairstyled, of course. I had everything going
22:23
on. The very first day that I got there, I put
22:28
my little Italian loafers on, and I wanted to
22:30
go out and kind of get the lay of the land and
22:32
just sort of see where I was, how close I was
22:34
to the courthouse, all that stuff where the food
22:36
was. So I embarked on a walk and I got lost very
22:40
quickly in a major downtown area, which didn't
22:45
seem possible, but they have north, south, east,
22:47
west type streets. Yes. Need I say more? No.
22:52
So where's the target? What corner? Well, then
22:56
I have my phone and I'm like trying to do the
23:00
walking. But then it's saying like, you know,
23:01
walk north, look. It's doing the same thing.
23:04
We don't know. And I'm looking, how do you translate?
23:07
north south east west yeah front back left right
23:10
right can't do it it turns out you need some
23:13
kind of a focal point so that's where I was having
23:18
trouble locating a focal point yes so I wandered
23:21
around oh my god Yvette the blisters from these
23:24
shoes so I I had to take off the loafers and
23:28
I had huge blisters all over my feet before I
23:30
found my way back to hotel rest of the trip Every
23:34
cute court outfit worn with cowboy boots. That's
23:37
all right. The only other shoes I had. It was
23:41
horrible. You were in Idaho. Not with a court
23:46
outfit. And also the people in Idaho are not
23:48
like that. Oh, really? Not in Boise. Very, very
23:52
upstanding. Conservative. Very white. But very
23:56
friendly bunch. That's nice. Yes. Very friendly
23:59
bunch. Very warm. They found me very interesting.
24:02
They liked me in Idaho. They did. They liked
24:04
me in Idaho. I did make a couple of girlfriends.
24:07
That's very nice. I did. I made friends. We sat
24:09
by each other and then we would just giggle about
24:11
what was happening, you know, but it was nice
24:14
to have somebody next to you to be like, Oh my
24:16
God, did you see what she just did? Right. Okay.
24:19
So, so now you're in the courthouse or in the
24:22
courtroom is what I'm trying to say. What did
24:26
it look and feel like? When you realize, okay,
24:31
I'm no longer watching this on television. I'm
24:34
no longer listening to this. I'm actually in
24:37
it. There she is. What did that feel like? It
24:41
felt like I was supposed to be there and that
24:44
it was meant to happen. I felt comfortable there.
24:51
I just, I was on time every day. I wasn't bored.
24:55
I listened. I enjoyed talking to people on the
24:58
breaks and at the lunch. I met a lot of my favorite
25:00
podcasters that I'd been listening to leading
25:02
up to this point. And I felt that was wonderful
25:06
because I just love knowing you've got like pals
25:09
and people that think like you like all over
25:11
the place, you know, just everywhere. It's kind
25:13
of cool. Were the podcasters mostly women? Yes.
25:17
Yeah. Yes. There were two that I met that were
25:22
one that I don't actually. It's interesting because
25:26
she's kind of fallen off as being kind of a credible
25:30
podcaster. So I don't listen to her anymore.
25:33
But my other friend, Gigi, I listen to religiously.
25:35
Hi, Gigi. Gigi. Okay. So Lori comes in. Lori
25:42
comes in. Tell me what that was like when you
25:47
first started. I know you said you're comfortable
25:48
and all that stuff. But now she comes in. And
25:51
to me, what she's been accused of. like you said,
25:55
is pure evil. Yeah. And so I imagine that I might
26:00
have been uncomfortable, that I might have felt
26:02
a little bit nervous. But how did that, like
26:05
when you saw her, like there she is, what went
26:08
through your mind? I think it kind of slowed
26:13
down. I think that it kind of was a little bit
26:17
spended, like, ah. But I... Even from the jump,
26:25
there's a reptilian quality to her. Tell me more
26:31
about that. The way she looks around the room
26:33
is predatory. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's just a
26:38
way of a gaze. There's a way of fixing your gaze.
26:42
There's a way of looking around to see who's
26:44
there. And then there's a way of kind of checking
26:48
yourself against who's there. I felt that way.
26:53
I felt her attention go around that way. That's
26:57
very interesting because when you were saying
27:00
before, like, you know, maybe the schizoid or
27:03
narcissistic or all of the above, I was thinking
27:08
about how she was a, you know, infamous on Wheel
27:12
of Fortune and she was in the Miss Texas pageant
27:16
and all of that. is a lot of look at me, look
27:20
at me. And now she was in a situation, the ultimate
27:25
look at me situation. So then finding how she's
27:30
looking at the room, like you said, like who
27:32
she's up against. That's a very interesting character.
27:38
And it just does feel right. Kind of. I mean,
27:42
it did. Her gaze was, I would describe as predatory.
27:46
that's crazy um yeah and and cold yeah okay so
27:50
it was it was a a presence and also I think what
27:55
it turned into for me was just a lot of frustration
27:57
because this person will never tell the truth
28:02
and that's what that's what it that's what you
28:04
come to reckon like I started to recognize that
28:07
what I wanted what you want is you want to know
28:11
what why yeah you want to know what happened
28:14
to you Oh, yeah. That's the whole reason. How
28:17
did this happen to you? Yeah. What moment did
28:21
you snap? Was it a thousand cuts? How did you
28:24
get there? Right. Because I can't get there.
28:29
Like, I wouldn't get there. Now I feel safe in
28:32
saying that I don't understand it. Right. But
28:34
in a sense, you almost feel like, is it maybe...
28:41
I'm safer watching her from over here knowing
28:45
I'm never going to do this. Like she, in a sense,
28:50
has taken this on for everybody. I can watch
28:53
you from way over here. I could see the horror
28:56
show. I'm not a part of this. Yeah, yeah. But
28:58
I still have to explore how nuts this is. Yeah,
29:03
yeah. So it's pretty baffling. I don't know why
29:07
that, and that case in particular struck me like
29:10
no other. There's a few more I'm getting into.
29:13
Deep diving. Yeah. And they all are women. Yes.
29:16
They're all women that kill. Right. Which is
29:19
unusual. And so I think as, you know, making
29:24
up over 70 % of true crime viewers as women,
29:28
when we see women that kill, it's always very
29:35
interesting to me because I... We obviously have
29:39
that trait in us, but I always think of it more
29:44
as, like, self -defense. Right. And so when you
29:47
realize, like, you killed your babies, you killed
29:51
your ex -husband and his ex -wife, like, because
29:56
of Jesus? Like, I mean, it doesn't make any sense
30:00
to me, right? But, I mean, the world doesn't
30:03
make sense sometimes, right? So, okay, I have
30:05
another question. The victim's family, maybe
30:10
a mom, you said another son that Lori had, you
30:13
said he had, Davell had five kids. Yeah. Were
30:17
they in the courtroom? When I would, no, they
30:21
were not. Okay. They were not because they were
30:24
all going to be testifying. I see. And so they're
30:26
not allowed to be present. So after they testified,
30:29
they could be. I was there for a week. Like I
30:32
watched five days of trial. Okay. So in the days
30:35
that I was there, no. okay and you didn't see
30:38
them well actually the grandma and the grandpa
30:40
were the grandma and the grandpa was right there
30:42
um it was the grandma and the grandpa of the
30:45
kids but whose parent laurier it was actually
30:49
his sister his her husband's sister the one that
30:55
he had left the money to this is where the story
30:58
gets a little bit confusing not for somebody
31:00
like you but think of it i feel just like think
31:03
of it well i'll put it to you this way there
31:05
was a A young couple that had a baby, but they
31:10
were addicted to drugs. So they adopted their
31:13
baby to the guy's uncle, right? So say, okay,
31:18
that uncle happened to be, that was Charles,
31:21
her husband. So the kids who had the baby, that
31:24
was his sister's kids. His niece and nephew,
31:28
or his niece. That was there, yeah. So it was
31:31
like. his sister who was like in her 60s first
31:35
son had a kid oh that's every day and then so
31:37
they felt like they couldn't raise the kid but
31:40
charles had even family already so he adopted
31:43
jj into their family so that was actually her
31:46
grandchild i got it and it was charles's nephew
31:49
okay but they adopted him as their son got it
31:53
so that's any and he was like a little autistic
31:55
yeah so when you did you look at them did you
32:00
like see how oh yeah yeah how were they well
32:04
they're oh my god these larry and um and k are
32:10
so strong and so close and very tight -knit with
32:17
their family yeah they are like she's like a
32:20
strong catholic background um they're just total
32:25
salt of the earth they live in um like poor charles
32:29
like louisiana um and they're just really down
32:34
to earth really really sweet people totally southern
32:37
very gracious yeah yeah well all right and that
32:42
and the press loved them they spoke with them
32:44
outside all the time the grandpa's like a total
32:48
sweetie kind of funny personality and everybody
32:52
really liked them a lot so i've watched a few
32:57
court trials right and um it always seems you
33:02
know like what you watch the reenactment and
33:04
it's so dramatic right but what was the atmosphere
33:07
like in the courtroom was it just question answer
33:12
Objection? Like, you know, was it, did it ever
33:15
get dramatic? Definitely, definitely. I was there
33:17
on Monday that was very dramatic, but I think
33:19
for the most part, it's just, it's fairly dry.
33:23
Yeah. In this case, the defense lawyer was pretty
33:27
salty. And the prosecution was pretty smart.
33:32
And so there was like some little fun sparks
33:34
at times, but for the most part, fairly dry.
33:37
Nothing exciting. But really the most fascinating
33:40
was just getting to learn more information because
33:43
it had been a few years for this to get to trial.
33:46
And you don't, you know, you get to only learn
33:49
so many things that are in the indictment, but
33:50
you don't know a lot of the evidence. It was
33:54
learning a lot of evidence and that kept you
33:57
very engaged with the testimony. There was one
34:02
woman one day and she revealed something that
34:05
hadn't been revealed and that the defense lawyer
34:11
was not prepared for and had never heard before.
34:14
And this totally pissed off that she said that
34:16
had to do with a conversation that she'd had
34:19
with Lori that where Lori had described that
34:22
she was going to hurt her. She was threatening
34:25
her, essentially, but that had never been mentioned
34:27
before. The defense lawyer, he fucking yelled
34:30
at her. He's just like, why would you say that?
34:32
You have never said that before. She cried, everything.
34:37
Ashley, it's true, it's true. But me and my little
34:39
friend that I'd made looked at each other and
34:41
were like, oh my God. So, okay, the kids' names
34:46
were JJ and Tylee? Tyler? Tylee. Tylee, okay.
34:52
Did you see? images of them no i was not there
34:56
that week it was not there no and i i wouldn't
34:58
go on a week where that's that that would stick
35:01
with me and i know myself well enough i could
35:03
make i can watch like scary movies and stuff
35:05
right like a real like this is a real photo of
35:08
a real child no no way okay no i wouldn't i wouldn't
35:12
show up for that so you can and i believe that
35:14
that day the family also didn't come you know
35:17
what i mean so no that that was not being the
35:19
week i was there but When you heard about this
35:23
and then they were, I would assume that they
35:25
were talking about these children. They did.
35:27
Being murdered. They did. Being in the courtroom,
35:31
did it make Tylee and JJ more real, even more
35:37
real? Like these were real children. Oh, yeah.
35:41
Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. They were so real already
35:44
because. So many photos, so many little video
35:48
clips of them, so many other family members talking
35:51
about them. The search had gone on for them for
35:54
almost a year. It was like you did, and a lot
35:58
of history about them and learning about them,
36:00
their school, their personalities, what they
36:02
liked. And so you felt like they were real children
36:07
that you could totally feel like you knew already.
36:13
the the thoughts of like their last moments or
36:16
whatever really happened isn't something i can
36:18
really contemplate right absolutely it's it's
36:22
it's too much i would say just more the that
36:25
the blessing that it's over yeah absolutely um
36:28
there's a moment in a lot of true crime coverage
36:33
where the perpetrator becomes almost the protagonist
36:37
and You know, obviously the story centers on
36:42
them, their psychology, their choices. Did that
36:46
shift at all when you were sitting in the room?
36:49
Like did, like what came up about her that like,
36:56
oh, this is porny. This is why I did it or. I
37:01
guess I'm saying, was there like a defense, the
37:04
defense attorney saying like, oh, well, you know,
37:07
she was beaten her whole life. You know, I'm
37:09
making something up, but that kind of. No, really,
37:11
her defense attorney, and then especially when
37:15
he gave his closing argument as well, he shed
37:17
tears. His, he really believed that she was someone
37:24
that loved Jesus and that she really believed
37:27
everything that Chad Dayball had told her. that
37:31
she was that it was the right thing to do that
37:33
the children were being tormented and that they
37:37
were dead anyway and taken over they were releasing
37:41
their spirits by killing them and you know whatever
37:47
they needed to tell themselves I think that she
37:50
got into a loop with it She has to say, she has
37:54
to, I don't know if she can actually believe
37:56
that. Right. I believe that that's what she has
37:58
to keep saying. Yeah. And that's what she's not
38:01
changed her story. Well, actually she did. She
38:03
changed her, or she said more than she tried
38:07
to make it sound to her son, her surviving son
38:11
on a phone call. She tried to tell him that the
38:15
daughter had killed the little boy and then killed
38:19
herself. And that Lori, to save her daughter's
38:25
reputation, took the hit. And therefore, the
38:30
story centers on her. Exactly. She was the victim
38:35
and the hero. Exactly. There we go. Wow. And
38:43
I'm happy to say at this point now, I mean, what
38:47
is true about it is it. did run its course i
38:51
i mean i i was totally intrigued and captivated
38:55
i learned all about it until i got to the point
38:59
where i realized there's things i'm not going
39:02
to understand and that's fine right there's things
39:04
in life i'm not going to but the awareness that
39:07
that exists is a little bit challenging because
39:13
it's You know, I don't ever think that about
39:16
anyone I meet. Right. And I never would have
39:18
thought that about her. She's somebody probably
39:22
would have been, you know, we would have seen
39:25
her on town. Right. You know what I mean? Maybe
39:27
not if she was in the whole like religious deal
39:29
or whatever, but she'd get her hair cut from
39:32
you. God, I hope not. Yeah. She was a hairstylist.
39:35
She was. Yeah. You know, a different bunch. She
39:40
was a hair girl. Yeah. Okay, wait. So you were
39:44
not there for the sentencing. No. But did you
39:47
listen to it? They did show the sentencing on
39:51
TV. Oh, so you did watch it? We did, yeah. Okay,
39:53
so what do you remember most vividly about the
39:57
sentencing? Because I did not see it. She seemed
39:59
unmoved and emotionless. Just took it? No tears,
40:03
no change of facial expression, no nothing. What
40:09
about in the courtroom? She never cried. No,
40:12
the reactions of others. She had a big reaction
40:16
when that one girl said something that hadn't
40:19
been spoken before. Right. No, but I mean when
40:21
she was being sentenced. Oh, when she was being
40:23
sentenced? Yeah. No. It was fine. No. Interesting.
40:26
Nothing. She will not. You get that feeling.
40:31
It's a prideful feeling. She's not going to give
40:33
it to you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like you said, predatory,
40:37
right? She's watching the reactions. Yeah, she's
40:40
not. And she went on to do a couple of like little
40:44
interviews in the jail, one by East Idaho News
40:48
and another by Arizona Family. And in both, she's,
40:52
I mean, it is a sketch and probably that I can't
40:58
say narcissistic or histrionic. I can't, but
41:02
I can say. You're going to see what I'm talking
41:05
about if you watch those interviews. It's pretty
41:07
nuts. Especially if you like body language. Sure.
41:10
Yeah. It's very revealing. It's a lot. It's a
41:15
lot. So did... What... lori didn't say anything
41:21
in the courtroom when she was being sentenced
41:22
not a thing did she get she did like an allocution
41:26
uh not an allocution but like you know you can
41:28
make a statement before we deliver i was just
41:30
gonna ask you that and that is yes she did okay
41:32
she did again just claiming innocence and kind
41:36
of making it she's like accidental this and that
41:39
is not you know she tried to everything she had
41:43
an answer for everything yeah and for eight million
41:45
zillion things here's a reason why you know no
41:48
matter what anybody else says see I just couldn't
41:54
I mean here's the thing I just worst criminal
41:56
ever I'd immediately say everything I did because
42:01
I'd be like so ashamed and well -eyed we're bad
42:05
liars and I want the whole thing to just be over
42:07
with and I'd be like blah yeah and then just
42:11
like whatever like you help me put the cuffs
42:14
on make this change turn me into something else
42:17
i need this yeah i i'd be so horrified i just
42:21
would yeah every time i try to lie about something
42:24
like but even if it's small i always have somebody
42:28
go are you lying and they can tell they know
42:31
you they can just tell because it's not worth
42:33
it wrong yeah and It's just, you know it. And
42:37
it's not worth it. Who gives a shit? Nobody.
42:40
I have not killed somebody. So it doesn't matter.
42:44
I'm telling you, if I did, I'd be the first to
42:48
say so. I'd be like, hey, man, I can unburden
42:52
me, right? I've got to unburden myself right
42:53
now. All right. So flying back from the Idaho.
43:01
What did it? feel like that's not what you were
43:03
thinking what did it feel like like like just
43:08
a like a really cool interesting experience that
43:13
I would love to do again okay yeah I'll definitely
43:16
do it again when I feel you know really connected
43:19
to something and it was also had to do with like
43:22
I kind of and I've run this past Alan also and
43:25
he likes the idea of like Because we were thinking
43:28
of going to Arizona for her last trial and just
43:31
make a little lap, do the five days of trial.
43:35
And like if he wanted to come in the day, he
43:37
could. Or if he wanted to go do something else
43:39
and then we could just play at night or whatever.
43:41
Have fun with it, you know. So there's some place
43:44
like Florida is a great place to see. To see
43:47
court cases, they're plentiful. They are very
43:51
plentiful. And they're interesting. And there
43:53
are many, many women involved in the crime community
43:57
in Florida. Yes. I feel like of the true crime
44:03
that I've watched, I don't know. I can't give
44:05
you a full percentage, a real percentage, but
44:08
I'm going to go with like 90%. But they've got
44:11
this on channel, so they show everything. they
44:13
should that's why so we get to see doesn't mean
44:16
it's not happening in other places sure we're
44:18
just not but we do we also feel like it's true
44:21
there is more there though come on all right
44:26
is there anything you wish you had known before
44:31
going there and it sounds like it was an overall
44:33
good experience for you but just Probably that
44:37
walking shoes, backup shoes. I would say that
44:41
that was the major kink that the very first day
44:44
my outfits were going to look bad for the week.
44:48
Yeah. I could have cried. I, I, everyone, everyone
44:52
chosen with care. And now, and then just with
44:56
the boots and then, okay. I told my aunts, Hey,
44:59
I got all the, you know, cute outfits. She's
45:02
like, I want to see a picture of you on your
45:03
way to court every morning. And I said, All right.
45:06
So every morning and not take a picture and not
45:10
mirror full length mirror in the room and with
45:12
the boots and everything. And then finally by
45:14
Friday, she's on. Did you bring any other shoes?
45:23
There's shoes in those blisters. I like that.
45:26
That's what we're taking away. All right. Last
45:30
question for you. Where have I heard that before?
45:33
I know it's usually a lie. We're spending this
45:37
whole episode asking why we're drawn to these
45:42
stories, right? Right. Especially why women are.
45:46
Right. And after everything you have been through,
45:50
seen, and heard in this case, what do you think
45:55
it's really about? Why did we go there? I do
46:01
believe that it is exploring a darker side of
46:05
ourselves through another person. I think that
46:08
we recognize human frailties and faults and conditions
46:14
and we can watch them play out and we can judge
46:19
it from far away or break it apart. And it's
46:22
just easier because it's not personal. But it
46:26
doesn't mean that you're not learning like, wow.
46:30
You know, this stuff exists. But I don't know
46:34
that I fear these things in myself. I honestly,
46:42
I just don't think that I see them. Right. You
46:46
know, and I haven't had an opportunity to be
46:49
like, let's see now. I've never explored welfare
46:54
fraud using my children. I mean. this is a thought
46:58
that's never occurred to me. Where did that come
47:01
from? Like what happened? It's just a, it's very,
47:04
she, they also, her husband made good money and
47:08
a lot of the things that she did were so, she
47:12
was, yeah, it didn't, it didn't seem to make
47:15
sense. Do you think that we are attracted to
47:19
true crime as, you know, I was saying on part
47:22
one of this, the cautionary, you know, women
47:25
are taught to walk with their keys in between
47:27
their fingers and don't go running at night.
47:29
And, you know, when you get the hair standing
47:32
up on the back of your neck, move, get out, get
47:35
out of the elevator, like whatever it is, if
47:37
somebody comes in and you feel that way. Do you
47:40
think that we are so interested in this besides
47:43
the fact that we like the human psyche and human
47:46
behavior? Is it a cautionary warning? I don't
47:53
know. Pay attention, ladies. I mean, I guess
47:56
it could be. I don't know because I don't really
48:00
think that way. I don't think it's really changed
48:03
me like that because like I said, I feel like
48:05
if I met her in some out of context way. I would
48:09
not think anything too much of it. And I can
48:12
do consider myself an empath, but I'm only picking
48:15
up things that are on my radar. I only pick up
48:18
what I kind of am attuned to. And I don't think
48:20
I'm attuned to that way of thinking. Absolutely
48:23
not. Absolutely not. But I do think that you
48:26
are keen enough to see something's different.
48:34
right you may not know what it is but i think
48:36
i think you would over a longer period i think
48:39
that you'd need a little bit more interaction
48:41
and a little bit more context but um you know
48:45
i'd probably get there with her i'd be like okay
48:48
yeah what's going on there but i'd love to hear
48:52
about the wheel of fortune i'd love to hear about
48:53
it oh yeah tell me your stories you know yeah
48:56
i i'd like to i'm going to explore that more
48:59
after this um Thank you so much. You're so welcome.
49:02
I don't know. I really, you're the only person
49:07
I know that's ever done that. And I know there's
49:09
more. And you just told me how you made friends
49:11
there. But I did find it very interesting. And
49:14
now it's definitely more clear as to why you
49:17
went there. And I hope that it. At least anybody
49:20
has an opportunity. If you had felt a little
49:23
interested in something, it's also a really cool
49:25
way to learn more about, like, just the justice
49:27
system and what a regular court day looks like.
49:29
Yeah. Pretty interesting. Yeah. But I'm kind
49:31
of a nerd in that sense. You're not a nerd. You're
49:34
very cool. Very pretty. Very cool. Okay. Thank
49:36
you so much. J .D .O. Pretty. You're very welcome.
49:41
Well, thanks to Rhonda for going, for coming
49:44
back, and for being willing to tell us what she
49:47
found out. What strikes me most just sitting
49:51
here and thinking about what she shared is how
49:55
different it is, the room versus the screen.
49:58
The research we talked about in part one describes
50:01
what true crime does to our brains in the abstract.
50:06
But Rhonda just showed us what it looks like
50:10
when the abstraction falls away and you're sitting
50:15
10 feet from the reality of it. The empathy that
50:19
we build watching these stories or the hatred
50:22
from a distance is very real. But what Rhonda
50:27
experienced in that courtroom, in the same air
50:31
as the perpetrator, it's a different order of
50:34
things entirely. It's a reminder that maybe behind
50:39
every case we consume, there are real people
50:43
still living inside of it long after we've moved
50:47
on. to another episode. If this two -part episode
50:52
has done anything, I hope it's made you a little
50:55
more conscious of that. Not guilty, just aware
50:59
there's a difference. Because that, I think more
51:04
than any specific habit, is the work of the original
51:07
self. Choosing what you let in, knowing why,
51:11
and staying honest about what it costs you. If
51:16
something in these two episodes stirred anything
51:18
in you a recognition a question something you
51:22
want to look at more honestly I'd love to speak
51:26
with you that's the work I do you can find me
51:30
at decotalifecoaching.com but until next time
51:34
keep coming back to yourself thank you for listening