Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Unmasking the Killer: The New Beaumont Revelations | Bill Hayes & Stuart Mullins

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Unmasking the Killer: The New Beaumont Revelations | Bill Hayes & Stuart Mullins · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Approache production.
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Speaker 2: A warning this podcast contains depictions of extreme violence against children.
0:16
Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam
0:22
Speaker 2: Shand I'm your host, Adam Shand. Of all the missing
0:25
Speaker 2: persons cases I've covered over the years, one stands out
0:29
Speaker 2: above all others.
0:30
Speaker 3: People have always wanted this case solved because at that
0:34
Speaker 3: time it really took away the innocence of life in
0:37
Speaker 3: Australia in the mid sixties.
0:39
Speaker 2: The disappearance of the Beaumont children, Jane, Anna and Grant
0:43
Speaker 2: on January twenty sixth, nineteen sixty six was unusual, not
0:48
Speaker 2: just in Australia but in the world.
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Speaker 4: Nine year old Jane Beaumont, her seven year old sister Anna,
0:54
Speaker 4: and their four year old brother Grant vanished from Glenelg
0:57
Speaker 4: Beach on Australia Day in nineteen sixty six, and their
1:00
Speaker 4: disappearance remains one of Australia's most enduring ant high profile
1:04
Speaker 4: cold case.
1:05
Speaker 2: The coort of offenders who could snatch three children from
1:08
Speaker 2: a crowded beach and get away with it is vanishingly small.
1:12
Speaker 2: The eye witness accounts of the day from glenell Beach
1:14
Speaker 2: were fragmentary and contradictory. Some saw a young surfer looking
1:19
Speaker 2: man with the children. Others saw an older man with
1:22
Speaker 2: a thin face with swept back hair. The last confirmed
1:26
Speaker 2: sighting was at a local bakery where Jane paid for
1:29
Speaker 2: some food with a one pound note. Whoever gave Jane
1:33
Speaker 2: that one pound note was almost certainly the abductor of
1:36
Speaker 2: the children and probably their killer. South Australia police are
1:41
Speaker 2: out of answers and have probably stopped asking questions.
1:45
Speaker 3: This prime was the worst crime that had been committed.
1:48
Speaker 3: I think in Australian history. People want some closure here.
1:51
Speaker 3: They want to know what happened to those three kids.
1:55
Speaker 2: Fortunately, my guest today, Bill Hayes and Stuart Mullins are
1:58
Speaker 2: still on the case. Their book, Unmasking the Killer of
2:03
Speaker 2: the Beaumont Children has been reissus dude with new critical information.
2:07
Speaker 2: That focus is yet more suspicion on one man, Adelaide
2:11
Speaker 2: businessman Harry Phipps. Bill and Stewart have been kind enough
2:15
Speaker 2: to join me today, can I jents Hello morning. Let
2:18
Speaker 2: me start by understanding who you guys are. Bill tell
2:21
Speaker 2: me your background.
2:23
Speaker 5: My background in my adult years was Armed services in
2:26
Speaker 5: the United Kingdom Police in Australia and then the private
2:31
Speaker 5: investigation field in Australia.
2:33
Speaker 6: And you're a polygraph expert as well.
2:36
Speaker 5: I hesitate the user term expert. I'm this polygraph examiner.
2:41
Speaker 2: Yes, give yourself a bunk up, mate, this is the
2:43
Speaker 2: one chance you get to do it now. Stuart, you
2:46
Speaker 2: come from a recruiting background, that's your business. But you've
2:49
Speaker 2: got a special connection to the Beaumont story.
2:52
Speaker 6: What is it.
2:53
Speaker 7: I was bought in Glenelg in the late fifties, so
2:56
Speaker 7: I'm the same age as Anna, and I lived up
2:59
Speaker 7: the road in Seacum Gardens, which would be four and
3:02
Speaker 7: a half kilometers away. I frequented in the beaches of Seacliff, Brighton,
3:07
Speaker 7: which is my favorite as a kid because they had
3:09
Speaker 7: a jetty you could jump off, and every now and
3:11
Speaker 7: then we'd head down to Collie Reserve. Was a multitude
3:14
Speaker 7: of children playing there, so I knew it well. I
3:17
Speaker 7: knew where Wensley's Bakery was because I frequented there also,
3:22
Speaker 7: So I grew up there and left when I was
3:24
Speaker 7: about twelve years old.
3:26
Speaker 2: And you grew up with that same sense of freedom
3:29
Speaker 2: that led the Beaumonts to allow their children to go
3:32
Speaker 2: down to Collie Reserve at Glenelg on that day. You
3:36
Speaker 2: understand the atmosphere of the times I do.
3:39
Speaker 8: I remembered for me.
3:41
Speaker 7: I was five years old and I went on the
3:45
Speaker 7: bus with the girl next door, she was eleven Roslyn.
3:48
Speaker 7: We took the bus down to Glenelg, just two of us,
3:52
Speaker 7: to go and watch A Hard Day's Night by the
3:54
Speaker 7: Beatles at the Glenelg Cinema, which is not there anymore,
3:57
Speaker 7: but that was by ourselves. And then from there we
4:00
Speaker 7: walked over to Collie Reserve, played around there for a
4:02
Speaker 7: while and when we thought it was ready, got back
4:05
Speaker 7: on the bus and travel, you know, six seven k's
4:09
Speaker 7: back to Seacum Gardens. You know, that's what you did.
4:12
Speaker 7: Parents didn't mind. We had complete freedom, and as a kid,
4:16
Speaker 7: I was quite confident where we all were back in
4:18
Speaker 7: the sixties.
4:19
Speaker 2: Because Bill, you grew up in Northern Ireland, if I'm
4:21
Speaker 2: not mistaken, that's correct, yeah, and so you know what
4:24
Speaker 2: we take for granted here. The peace and security instability
4:27
Speaker 2: was not something that was on offer to Northern Irish children.
4:31
Speaker 5: That's correct. I grew up in even though we were inverted.
4:35
Speaker 5: Cole was peaceful during my childhood. The resolve was the
4:39
Speaker 5: undercurrent of sectarianism and the patridge between different parties in
4:45
Speaker 5: Northern Ireland. There was all was big fights and troubles
4:49
Speaker 5: and yeah, quite a violent place.
4:52
Speaker 6: So I've got to ask you.
4:53
Speaker 2: You two come from very different worlds, how did you
4:56
Speaker 2: come together on this case.
4:59
Speaker 7: I was working with Alan Whittaker, which you may know
5:02
Speaker 7: as an author in his own right, good friend of
5:04
Speaker 7: mine from college. He was working on the book Searching
5:09
Speaker 7: for the Beaumont Children back in two thousand and five.
5:11
Speaker 7: It was released in two thousand and six. Because John
5:13
Speaker 7: Wiley and Sony's publishers ass can he write the first
5:16
Speaker 7: definitive account. He asked me to come on board to
5:19
Speaker 7: help him show him around the streets of Glenelg. The
5:23
Speaker 7: book sold well. People came forward. Most of them are
5:27
Speaker 7: a bit looney, but there was one lady in particular
5:29
Speaker 7: that came forward that said her former father in law
5:34
Speaker 7: fitted the description handed out pound nights, which he didn't
5:37
Speaker 7: know until she read that book.
5:40
Speaker 8: I followed it.
5:40
Speaker 7: I found it very credible, and one thing led to
5:43
Speaker 7: another until I came to a point where I was
5:46
Speaker 7: hitting a brick wall. Would have only been about a
5:48
Speaker 7: year later, and I was hitting the brick wall with
5:50
Speaker 7: certain detectives from SAPOL. And I suppose, as Bill said
5:55
Speaker 7: in the book, they don't like being told by members
5:57
Speaker 7: of the public how to do their job, because I
6:00
Speaker 7: was hitting a brick wall when he told me that
6:02
Speaker 7: I was beating my head up against the brick wall.
6:05
Speaker 8: I asked a.
6:06
Speaker 7: Few detectives or former detectives moston matters was one which
6:10
Speaker 7: was the first detective to meet and distraught mister and
6:12
Speaker 7: missus Beaumont that fateful day, and Ken Thawson, the former
6:16
Speaker 7: head of Major Crime, that both recommended Bill Hayes, and
6:21
Speaker 7: so I got in to see him, and I used
6:23
Speaker 7: the moston and the former head of Major Crime's names,
6:28
Speaker 7: and so he saw me. I don't think he would
6:30
Speaker 7: have seen me if it wasn't for those two names,
6:32
Speaker 7: because he's heard every goddamn theory about the Beaumont children.
6:36
Speaker 2: Because Bill, if there's one thing police hate more than
6:39
Speaker 2: members of the public getting involved, it's ex police. They
6:43
Speaker 2: hate ex detectives meddling. So what was your experience you
6:47
Speaker 2: worked in sa POL, You were aware of the case
6:50
Speaker 2: over the years, what did you know about it?
6:52
Speaker 5: Well, I'd actually worked when I was a uniform police
6:56
Speaker 5: officer in My partner at the time was a guy
6:59
Speaker 5: called Mark.
7:00
Speaker 1: I want us you sooner, but he was a cousin
7:02
Speaker 1: of the Balmont's children.
7:05
Speaker 5: Back then, I had a fair idea of what happened
7:08
Speaker 5: and the story because Mark.
7:10
Speaker 1: Would relate it to me. We would talk about it later.
7:13
Speaker 5: As a detective in the Major Crimes Cord, I was
7:18
Speaker 5: chucked into a room full of boxes and told to
7:20
Speaker 5: have a read, which was something they did with most
7:23
Speaker 5: new detectives in the Major Crimes Cord give the mo
7:25
Speaker 5: old called cases and boxes and then have a read.
7:29
Speaker 1: I got the bon boxes and stretched the surface.
7:32
Speaker 5: To be truthful, I only had about a half a
7:35
Speaker 5: day in there, but I read enough to interest me.
7:39
Speaker 2: Because what struck me looking at this case was the
7:43
Speaker 2: absence of eyewitness accounts. A beach full of people, hot
7:47
Speaker 2: summer's day, everyone's down the beach, there's nothing else to do.
7:51
Speaker 2: And when we did our show on the Hunters, we
7:53
Speaker 2: looked at this case. We work with you guys. Then
7:55
Speaker 2: as well was the fact that a queue of people
7:59
Speaker 2: were there to give their eyewitness accounts or some piece
8:02
Speaker 2: of information. A lot of people didn't get to give
8:05
Speaker 2: their evidence. What impact do you think that had on
8:10
Speaker 2: the early investigation of the case.
8:13
Speaker 1: It would be difficult to measure the definity impact.
8:17
Speaker 5: Suffice to say that one of those hundreds who turned
8:21
Speaker 5: away may well have held.
8:23
Speaker 2: A key, because we saw in the days after that
8:27
Speaker 2: police were door knocking all the way up and down
8:30
Speaker 2: the street. They got very, very little, and they were
8:33
Speaker 2: left with just these fragmentary eyewitness accounts and the really
8:37
Speaker 2: cryptic account from Wenzel's Bakery where Jane goes in with
8:41
Speaker 2: the pound note and she buys more food than would
8:45
Speaker 2: have been expected if she was just buying it for
8:47
Speaker 2: her siblings. So it seems like the abductor was either
8:53
Speaker 2: with them or in the shadows or somewhere about.
8:57
Speaker 1: He wasn't far away.
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Speaker 5: I'm not sure that he actually took them there or
9:01
Speaker 5: met them there after they had left his house.
9:05
Speaker 1: He would have been there or nearby.
9:07
Speaker 5: Because they didn't hang around outside Menzel's after buying enough
9:12
Speaker 5: food for six people, six adults.
9:15
Speaker 7: And the key point there was I remember talking it
9:19
Speaker 7: must have matters. This is before I met Bill, and
9:21
Speaker 7: he said it was a pivotal piece of information back
9:24
Speaker 7: then and it still is now. Everything revolves around that
9:27
Speaker 7: pound note, because who was wealthy enough to part with
9:30
Speaker 7: a pound note to children? Apparently he didn't know and
9:34
Speaker 7: that pound note. Being a kid in the sixties, I
9:37
Speaker 7: saw a pound note in my mum's purse, you know,
9:39
Speaker 7: and it's a wow factor. And as a child, or
9:42
Speaker 7: could you think of how many lollies and ice creams
9:45
Speaker 7: can I buy? Buckets? That's the way a child thinks.
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Speaker 7: And it would have been the same way as Jane,
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Speaker 7: Anna and Grant. Yes, they were very sensible. Jane was
9:54
Speaker 7: very mature for age, but the pull of a pound
9:57
Speaker 7: note would really attract any child.
10:01
Speaker 6: And you're right.
10:01
Speaker 2: People did not give out those pound notes, willy nilly.
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Speaker 2: There was one individual who was noted for giving out
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Speaker 2: pound notes all the time. That was Harry Phipps. Stuart,
10:12
Speaker 2: You've been looking at him for a long time. Who
10:14
Speaker 2: was Harry Phipps.
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Speaker 7: Harry Phipps was a very wealthy industrialist. He started castel
10:21
Speaker 7: at North Plimpton from basically scratch and he built it up.
10:25
Speaker 7: The height of its fame would have been in the eighties.
10:28
Speaker 7: They made let's say, rims for Remitsubishi. He made car parts,
10:33
Speaker 7: he made those little well put it this way. The
10:36
Speaker 7: fountain in Adelaide that was done through castell lois so
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Speaker 7: huge business and he ran it up until the eighties
10:44
Speaker 7: where he stood down. He was an acting chairman and
10:47
Speaker 7: then he stood down, but he ran it for since
10:49
Speaker 7: the nineteen fifties. He started with Sega Manufacturing in Gilbert Street,
10:54
Speaker 7: I think in Adelaide, and as it become bigger and bigger,
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Speaker 7: he moved out to North Plympton and I must admit
11:01
Speaker 7: nothing was out there at that time, nothing but he could.
11:05
Speaker 7: He had a wonderful business knack of what would be successful,
11:09
Speaker 7: so he bought the plot of land out there and
11:10
Speaker 7: built this huge factory.
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Speaker 2: And in your investigation of him, you found he had
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Speaker 2: some particular sexual placlivities which I think irrelevant to your investigation.
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Speaker 6: What were they?
11:23
Speaker 8: Well, this has been corroborated.
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Speaker 7: Before I met Bill, I knew that I needed to
11:28
Speaker 7: corroborate this. So one name Angela Phipps, who was the
11:32
Speaker 7: former wife of Hayden Phipps. I spoke to her. She
11:36
Speaker 7: was the former daughter in law of Harry Phipps.
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Speaker 6: So Hayden was Harry's son.
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Speaker 7: Harry was the eldest son. And she told me that
11:44
Speaker 7: Hayden said that his father had something to do with
11:47
Speaker 7: the disappearance of the Beaumont children, and that he was
11:51
Speaker 7: sexually abused, and that Harry used to dress up in
11:55
Speaker 7: women's satin clothing which he got sexually aroused with, and
11:59
Speaker 7: he abused not only Hayden but a few others. So
12:03
Speaker 7: it was a pedophile active for But one thing she said,
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Speaker 7: and she read in the book was that he was
12:09
Speaker 7: wealthy and he used to give out and tip in
12:13
Speaker 7: pound notes, pound notes and five pound notes, mostly one
12:17
Speaker 7: pound notes, and that was the clincher. It was like
12:20
Speaker 7: the pound note was the thing that brought it all together. Yes,
12:24
Speaker 7: there was a description, but it was the pound note.
12:26
Speaker 7: So from there I followed on until I came to Bill,
12:30
Speaker 7: and I remember Bill's office.
12:32
Speaker 8: He said, is all this corroborated?
12:34
Speaker 7: And he said yes, and I told him about the
12:36
Speaker 7: pound note, which really raised his eyebrows.
12:39
Speaker 2: Stuart, I'm not being critical here is an enthusiastic game,
12:42
Speaker 2: but it certainly was. Then no criticism. You've dealt with
12:45
Speaker 2: this style of investigator all your life. You needed more
12:48
Speaker 2: corroboration of what Hayden was saying.
12:50
Speaker 6: What did you do well?
12:51
Speaker 5: The first thing I did before I accepted the task
12:55
Speaker 5: was to tell Sut that I'd be doing everything possible
12:58
Speaker 5: to prove that everything that he'd said thus far was untrue,
13:02
Speaker 5: because that's the test in the arena and certainly with police.
13:07
Speaker 5: So I set out to do that. I initiated by
13:11
Speaker 5: reading everything that was that Stuart had, particularly the book
13:16
Speaker 5: Searching for the ball Monts that Alan would he get written,
13:19
Speaker 5: which was interesting to me, and then I felt the
13:22
Speaker 5: next step for me would have to be fine Hayden
13:25
Speaker 5: and speak to him face to face, which we did.
13:29
Speaker 5: We met him up in Queensland.
13:31
Speaker 6: He was a trouble cell.
13:33
Speaker 5: He was, but when I met him, I'd be given
13:37
Speaker 5: an impression of Hayden that was not positive in the
13:41
Speaker 5: least and didn't really know what to expect, well open
13:45
Speaker 5: to look after himself. So I wasn't frightened, but I
13:49
Speaker 5: was a bit concerned about what I was walking into.
13:52
Speaker 5: I guess would be the best term to use. But
13:55
Speaker 5: what I met was a man who was very well spoken,
13:59
Speaker 5: very intelligent, sober and well presented, nothing like I expected
14:05
Speaker 5: to meet.
14:06
Speaker 6: And what story did he have to tell?
14:09
Speaker 5: Well, basically he told Hayden's story at the time, which
14:15
Speaker 5: was that he was working at the Bonny Alliott, Glenelg
14:19
Speaker 5: on that day, the twenty sixth of January nineteen.
14:22
Speaker 1: Sixty six, which was a Wednesday.
14:25
Speaker 5: He come home at lunchtime and had gone into the
14:30
Speaker 5: backyard where he went into what he called a cobby.
14:34
Speaker 5: Now was it a cubby, as we would normally understand
14:36
Speaker 5: a covey as a couple of planks of wood against
14:39
Speaker 5: the fence like a lean to.
14:41
Speaker 1: But he used to go in there and have a
14:43
Speaker 1: sly smoke.
14:44
Speaker 5: He remember back then fourteen or fifteen year old children
14:47
Speaker 5: didn't smoke in front of the parents.
14:50
Speaker 1: He gets your bump smacked.
14:51
Speaker 5: Anyhow, he went and had his sly smoke, and he
14:53
Speaker 5: saw that Harry was in the other side of the
14:57
Speaker 5: yard at the driveway loading his car up a Pontiac prisionne,
15:03
Speaker 5: burning it with surfboard bags. He felt that in the
15:07
Speaker 5: surfboard bags where Harry's satin clothes, so therefore Harry was
15:12
Speaker 5: loading them up. He'd made them at the house, which
15:15
Speaker 5: he used to do, putting him in the surfboard bags
15:18
Speaker 5: which castle Lay used to make at that time, and
15:22
Speaker 5: he would take them to the cottage at Castelloy, which
15:26
Speaker 5: was Harry's place, his safe place where he store his
15:31
Speaker 5: fetish material, that clothing. It's important to say he in
15:35
Speaker 5: have become more important even later that when Harry handled
15:40
Speaker 5: satin or saw it worn, or anything to do with satin,
15:44
Speaker 5: or even some of the colors he liked, he would
15:47
Speaker 5: become extremely sexually excited, so excited to the point where
15:52
Speaker 5: he's been seen to spontaneously ejaculate. That's how exciting he
15:58
Speaker 5: would be. And here he is that day handling his
16:02
Speaker 5: satin dresses that put him in the or bags and
16:06
Speaker 5: into the backyard walked three little children, who will say
16:11
Speaker 5: now were the bomb On children. And the children had
16:14
Speaker 5: spoken to Harry for a short time and he taken
16:18
Speaker 5: them inside the house. They remained inside the house. Harry
16:24
Speaker 5: had come out a few minutes later and continued to
16:28
Speaker 5: load up his car. He left in his car and
16:33
Speaker 5: Hayden went inside the house. There was no signs of
16:37
Speaker 5: disturbance in the house. The children were in the house,
16:41
Speaker 5: There was no smells that suggest anything bad had happened
16:45
Speaker 5: in there, and the front door was wide open, which
16:50
Speaker 5: he made him assume that the children must have left
16:52
Speaker 5: through the front door because they weren't in the house.
16:56
Speaker 1: And that for Hayden was the end of it.
16:59
Speaker 5: It wasn't the end of it for us, though, because
17:00
Speaker 5: we were concerned that Hayden he was telling his stuff,
17:04
Speaker 5: but he wasn't telling is everything.
17:06
Speaker 1: He was holding Shelty back anyhow. From there we take up.
17:10
Speaker 5: The story at Wenzel's because if the children had left
17:16
Speaker 5: the house when we thought they did, they'd walked down
17:19
Speaker 5: to Wendels, which would take about eight to ten minutes.
17:23
Speaker 1: We've walked it. You've walked to.
17:24
Speaker 5: Two adam as I know, and the timing is perfect
17:28
Speaker 5: given the time. We know that they're left to rot
17:30
Speaker 5: the Collie Reserved, and he would have walked down there
17:33
Speaker 5: and bought the food with a one pound up.
17:36
Speaker 2: I should say that Harry's house was about three hundred
17:39
Speaker 2: meters away from Collie Reserve where the kids were last seen.
17:43
Speaker 7: It was one hundred and ninety meters in direct sight
17:45
Speaker 7: of where the Ron Davil was.
17:47
Speaker 2: You know your stuff on this case, Stuart. I'll take you,
17:50
Speaker 2: as the gospel one hundred and ninety meters. And we
17:54
Speaker 2: know that the kids went down to the beach the
17:56
Speaker 2: previous day. Jim, their father had dropped them down there.
18:00
Speaker 2: The following morning, as Nancy is sending the kids off
18:03
Speaker 2: to go to the beach for the the kids are
18:07
Speaker 2: teasing Jane. Jane's got a boyfriend. Jane's got a boyfriend.
18:11
Speaker 2: Something happened that day before. So if it was Harry
18:16
Speaker 2: that had taken them the next day, perhaps he'd made
18:21
Speaker 2: contact the day before.
18:24
Speaker 5: Yes, there's no doubt about he groomed him. The day
18:28
Speaker 5: he took them wasn't the first day he'd met them.
18:30
Speaker 5: That was quite obvious from the eyewitness accounts of what
18:33
Speaker 5: happened when the children arrived.
18:35
Speaker 1: At the reserve.
18:36
Speaker 5: And it seems that this boyfriend thing may well have
18:40
Speaker 5: been a lure for Jane, where he had a younger
18:44
Speaker 5: accomplice involved in the work that he did to try
18:49
Speaker 5: and get confidence of the children to do what he did. So, yes,
18:54
Speaker 5: we believed that he did meet them the day before.
18:57
Speaker 1: And he may have had others with him at that time.
19:00
Speaker 2: Hayden went further. He talked about his own abuse at
19:04
Speaker 2: the hands of his father. What did he tell you?
19:07
Speaker 7: This is all before I met Bill, but I needed
19:09
Speaker 7: to meet Hayden. I met him in his apartment in
19:12
Speaker 7: Broadbeach and I spent about two hours with him and
19:16
Speaker 7: a lot of it was to talk about his abuse.
19:18
Speaker 7: I said, you don't have to expand on it. I
19:22
Speaker 7: know what it's like to talk about abuse because it
19:25
Speaker 7: brings back up the mad memories that he had. But
19:27
Speaker 7: he did talk about his abuse. It started when he
19:31
Speaker 7: was at least three to four years old, and he
19:35
Speaker 7: could hear the Swiss of Saturn rubbing together, which was
19:38
Speaker 7: his father wearing satin dresses, and he'd hear that coming
19:42
Speaker 7: down the hallway at the early hours of the morning,
19:44
Speaker 7: and he knew what he was in stall for was
19:48
Speaker 7: a sexual abuse. And this went on from the age
19:50
Speaker 7: to three to four to round the age of thirteen,
19:53
Speaker 7: when he got strong enough to protect himself. Up until
19:57
Speaker 7: that point, you've got to think that Hayden was sexually
20:00
Speaker 7: abused at least at least three to four times a week.
20:04
Speaker 7: So he went through hell and I'm surprised he lived
20:08
Speaker 7: as long as he did. But what he told me,
20:11
Speaker 7: I had no hesitation to disbelieve him. And the statistics
20:16
Speaker 7: also come to bear that between two and six percent
20:20
Speaker 7: of individuals that say they were sexually abused a lying.
20:23
Speaker 7: There's roughly a ninety four percent chance that somebody who
20:27
Speaker 7: says they're sexually abused are telling the truth. So he
20:31
Speaker 7: was telling the truth. And he also talked about his
20:34
Speaker 7: father handing out pound notes. And the more we moved forward,
20:39
Speaker 7: there was other people that came forward about Harry Phipps
20:42
Speaker 7: that we know today.
20:43
Speaker 2: Hayden also painted a traumatic picture of home life, which
20:47
Speaker 2: was characterized by Harry going off the deep end, firing guns,
20:53
Speaker 2: beating his wife, beating Hayden, and as you say, it
20:56
Speaker 2: went on until Hayden was big enough to stand up
20:59
Speaker 2: to his father, which shows, if it's true, how cowardly
21:02
Speaker 2: he was.
21:03
Speaker 6: With that.
21:04
Speaker 7: I spoke to two former seeing members of CASTELLOI because
21:08
Speaker 7: I needed to get more background before I approached Bill.
21:12
Speaker 7: Both of them, and they hadn't seen each other for years,
21:15
Speaker 7: said that Hayden and Wayne hated their father with a
21:19
Speaker 7: passion and you couldn't put it down to a workplace issue.
21:23
Speaker 7: Something must have been happening at home. When I spoke
21:26
Speaker 7: to both of them about the sexual abuse, they said
21:28
Speaker 7: that would answer the question.
21:31
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, Hayden is not around anymore to confirm or add
21:35
Speaker 2: to this story what happened to him?
21:37
Speaker 1: Well, Hayden.
21:39
Speaker 5: We did see Hayden one more time on one more occasion,
21:41
Speaker 5: which he can discuss if you wish. But Hayden basically
21:45
Speaker 5: passed away of I suppose he called natural causes. He
21:50
Speaker 5: wasn't a well made in many aspects. He lived a
21:53
Speaker 5: hard life and he passed away quite young.
21:58
Speaker 8: Hold as he stood, Oh, I don't think he would
22:01
Speaker 8: have been in his fifties.
22:02
Speaker 1: He's in his fifties, his.
22:04
Speaker 5: Mid fifties, so he passed away of natural causes in
22:07
Speaker 5: his mid fifties. I think he was back living in
22:10
Speaker 5: Queensland at that time.
22:12
Speaker 7: We've got his medical certificates, his medical reports because he'd
22:15
Speaker 7: passed away, they were passed.
22:16
Speaker 8: On to us.
22:17
Speaker 7: The myriad of prescription medication he was on on surprise again,
22:21
Speaker 7: he wasn't debt sooner. It was unbelievable and a lot
22:25
Speaker 7: of it were to do. And the doctor's report. He
22:28
Speaker 7: was talking about sexual abuse in that report.
22:31
Speaker 2: So there's a history of drink and drugs. I believe
22:34
Speaker 2: that might have suggested a self medicating of trauma.
22:38
Speaker 1: No doubt, no doubt. He gave every aspect.
22:41
Speaker 5: We've learned a lot about pedophiles and pedophile victims in
22:45
Speaker 5: the last seventeen to eighteen years of working on this,
22:48
Speaker 5: and he gave every sign of being abused.
22:54
Speaker 2: So there we have Hayden with a very vivid eyewitness
22:58
Speaker 2: account of seeing children at the Phipps residence near Collie
23:02
Speaker 2: Reserve and Glenelg. The next vital piece of information came
23:06
Speaker 2: from two young men who were asked to dig a
23:09
Speaker 2: hole at the Castelloi's site at North Plimpton, Stewart.
23:13
Speaker 6: Can you tell us what happened then?
23:15
Speaker 7: Well, a gentleman called David First contacted Alan Whittaker with
23:20
Speaker 7: information and Allan Whittaker contacted me about two brothers that
23:26
Speaker 7: were asked by Harry Phipps to dig a grave size hole.
23:28
Speaker 7: Now that's in their words, it's not ours making it up.
23:31
Speaker 7: A grave size hole at the back of the Castelloy
23:33
Speaker 7: factory three days after the children went missing. Now they
23:36
Speaker 7: went missing on a Wednesday. They were asked to dig
23:39
Speaker 7: a hole, a grave size hole at the back of
23:41
Speaker 7: Castelloy Factory. It had to be a certain width, certain
23:45
Speaker 7: depth and it was in the sandy are at the
23:47
Speaker 7: back of Castle OOI Factory and it was overseen by
23:51
Speaker 7: none other than Harry Phipps. Once they had finished digging
23:54
Speaker 7: that hole, and it was one hundred degrees heat by
23:56
Speaker 7: the way, is they were given a pound note, told
24:02
Speaker 7: to f off and never come back, which was some
24:05
Speaker 7: which they hadn't heard or wasn't usual, But that's what
24:07
Speaker 7: Harry used. So we don't know what he put in
24:10
Speaker 7: that hole. They also describe his car as a pontiac
24:14
Speaker 7: parisen as a bill brought up, and that they were
24:17
Speaker 7: paid handsomely again him pound notes. That's that pound note.
24:21
Speaker 7: Been saying even in the book, follow the money, follow
24:24
Speaker 7: the money trail. He tipped in pound notes. Jane got
24:28
Speaker 7: a pound note, and three days later, low and behold,
24:32
Speaker 7: the two boys get pound notes. I mean, it doesn't
24:35
Speaker 7: take a rocket science to work that one out.
24:37
Speaker 2: And that was very good evidence, and the police did
24:39
Speaker 2: take it seriously because there was not one but two
24:41
Speaker 2: digs at the site back in about twenty thirteen. I
24:45
Speaker 2: believe what happened in those digs.
24:48
Speaker 1: Well, in twenty.
24:49
Speaker 5: Thirteen dig we think was slightly misplaced. Well we thought
24:54
Speaker 5: at the time they found nothing in that area. The
24:58
Speaker 5: twenty eighteen dig was much better identified by Graham penetrating radio.
25:05
Speaker 5: All the devices that was used to find the exact
25:08
Speaker 5: spot where the hole was dug. We did find that
25:12
Speaker 5: the hole takes two Professor Ian Moffatley's team from Finnish University,
25:19
Speaker 5: and a hole was dug there again nothing clean.
25:24
Speaker 6: So how did that go with you? Guys?
25:26
Speaker 2: You'd put a lot of your own credibility on that
25:30
Speaker 2: story about the gravesized hole being dug and it came
25:34
Speaker 2: up with nothing.
25:34
Speaker 6: It must have been a crushing blow.
25:36
Speaker 8: No, disappointed.
25:39
Speaker 7: But wasn't a crushing blow as they say, because we
25:42
Speaker 7: know the back of the factory I mean is billed
25:45
Speaker 7: with a test when we were there.
25:46
Speaker 8: It's quite wide.
25:47
Speaker 7: It runs from one street to the other, so you know,
25:50
Speaker 7: it's like you could say it's finding a needle in
25:53
Speaker 7: a haystack. The other thing is that in the original
25:56
Speaker 7: dig And I'll go back a bit, when they were digging,
25:59
Speaker 7: Hayden called his closest cousin at that time and he
26:03
Speaker 7: yielded him. He said, they're digging in the eff Andong spot,
26:06
Speaker 7: So Hayden knew where they were. And also Hayden did say,
26:09
Speaker 7: and has said on numerous occasions, they're in the ship pit.
26:14
Speaker 7: And there is a thing called the ship pit, according
26:16
Speaker 7: to former Castaly employees, where they would put in the
26:21
Speaker 7: canisters that held the chemicals. They'd put in metal filings
26:24
Speaker 7: and so forth. When we dug those digs that were
26:29
Speaker 7: done at the back of the castle a factory, I
26:32
Speaker 7: think Bill's the same. I walked away from there. It
26:34
Speaker 7: was disappointing to a way, But where's the canisters? Where's
26:38
Speaker 7: the ship pit? We only found a few bones, but
26:41
Speaker 7: where is the rubbish, the leftovers, the dross and so
26:46
Speaker 7: forth from that factory? Where was that dumped? We know
26:49
Speaker 7: it was there somewhere, but we haven't hit that. So disappointed,
26:54
Speaker 7: but there's also a flicker of hope.
26:56
Speaker 2: You guys are absolutely indefatigable. You'll never be put off.
26:59
Speaker 2: In fact, to the point where early this year twenty
27:02
Speaker 2: twenty five, you were back there again, the privately funded
27:06
Speaker 2: dig that was organized in part by Frank Pangalo, the
27:10
Speaker 2: independent MP in South Australia, and you were there again.
27:13
Speaker 2: Why was it worth going back and digging once more?
27:16
Speaker 5: Well, eighteen dig did a few things to my mindset,
27:21
Speaker 5: and of course Stuart's. But one of the things that
27:24
Speaker 5: we considered was was this a predetermined act of murder?
27:30
Speaker 5: Had he set out that day, the twenty sixth of
27:32
Speaker 5: January to take these three children, had.
27:35
Speaker 1: To murder them? I believe not.
27:38
Speaker 5: I believe he had designs towards the children sexually as
27:42
Speaker 5: a pedophile, but not to murder them because there'd been
27:46
Speaker 5: no preparation for disposal of bodies.
27:50
Speaker 1: That fits in with the.
27:51
Speaker 5: Guys having to dig a hole three days later when
27:55
Speaker 5: it was very very hot and very very humid.
27:58
Speaker 1: If the children had been murdered when we.
28:00
Speaker 5: Think they were in the cottages at castlelawy days later,
28:06
Speaker 5: to not find a point on it, it would have
28:10
Speaker 5: been a stench that would have been quite easily ascertained
28:14
Speaker 5: as coming from that cottage had he been there for
28:17
Speaker 5: that time in that heat.
28:19
Speaker 1: So he wasn't prepared, and getting the guys to dig
28:23
Speaker 1: that hole three.
28:23
Speaker 5: Days later in such haste proved that to me that
28:27
Speaker 5: it wasn't a predetermined murder up to a point where it.
28:32
Speaker 1: Did become that way.
28:34
Speaker 5: So then that led us to think that we're dealing
28:37
Speaker 5: with a clever man who had the brains and the
28:40
Speaker 5: wherewithal to dig the hole a keeper hole, perhaps to
28:46
Speaker 5: get whether the children out of the cottages where we
28:49
Speaker 5: believe it would have been left, and to put them
28:52
Speaker 5: somewhere where the stench isn't going to alert someone. But
28:57
Speaker 5: also being a cunning and very intelligent man as he was,
29:02
Speaker 5: he would have thought, well, yourself up a little bit
29:06
Speaker 5: here by having these strangers to this hole. What if
29:09
Speaker 5: someone puts two and two together one day and decide
29:13
Speaker 5: to go back to the hole on gone. So did
29:16
Speaker 5: he later dig a hole and exhume the children and
29:20
Speaker 5: put him somewhere else? Or was the whole doug as
29:24
Speaker 5: a blind to take us the wrong way?
29:28
Speaker 2: Quite possible in my experience currying these cases. The people
29:31
Speaker 2: that bury bodies live a life of fear and uncertainty
29:34
Speaker 2: that some days someone's going to find them. And particularly
29:37
Speaker 2: when you've got a vast ocean, the Great Australian Bite,
29:41
Speaker 2: there is beyond Adelaide, beyond Glenelg there would be ample
29:45
Speaker 2: opportunity to exhume those bodies, take them out to sea,
29:48
Speaker 2: so they would never be found again. So you have
29:51
Speaker 2: to dig somewhere. You've got to start somewhere. But again
29:54
Speaker 2: that dig in early twenty twenty five didn't find anything.
29:57
Speaker 6: You continue on.
29:58
Speaker 2: Now you've also begun to reappraise the possible role of
30:03
Speaker 2: Hayden Phipps in this bill.
30:06
Speaker 5: Well, we've always had concerns with Hayden's what secret was
30:11
Speaker 5: he keeping. He was telling us most things, and you're
30:15
Speaker 5: calling your mind, Steve van Apron.
30:18
Speaker 1: He saw Red analyze.
30:21
Speaker 5: Hayden's interview with me and kept the saying inclusion of
30:25
Speaker 5: separate from himself, that he was holding something back, and
30:30
Speaker 5: we were always concerned about what was he holding back.
30:34
Speaker 5: He obviously, from the way he spoke to us and
30:37
Speaker 5: to me on two occasions, was very certain that the
30:41
Speaker 5: children were murdered there and were buried in the ship pit.
30:46
Speaker 5: That was the last thing he said to me. The
30:48
Speaker 5: last time I saw alive was there in the shippit build.
30:52
Speaker 5: So it was quite certain that he was holding something back.
30:56
Speaker 5: We want to find out what that was. We never
30:59
Speaker 5: thought we would, but we think we have.
31:01
Speaker 2: Right because you mentioned Steve Van Apron. He is my
31:04
Speaker 2: co host of the Heart does the seven show we
31:06
Speaker 2: did and he did analyze Hayden's audio interview and he
31:09
Speaker 2: did say to me he felt that Hayden was holding
31:12
Speaker 2: something back, as you say, and it's just a shame
31:14
Speaker 2: that he wasn't around to be reinterviewed or actually put
31:17
Speaker 2: on the polygraph himself.
31:18
Speaker 6: You wonder how he might have gone. Bill.
31:20
Speaker 2: You've actually been doing polygraph for a number of years
31:23
Speaker 2: now you understand human behavior, the body language. Was there
31:27
Speaker 2: anything in Hayden's demeanor that tended to reinforce your suspicion?
31:31
Speaker 5: I think it was his demeanor that actually caused me
31:34
Speaker 5: to think, as well as what the words he was
31:35
Speaker 5: saying and how he's saying, It caused me to think
31:37
Speaker 5: that he was holding something back. It would take you
31:40
Speaker 5: to a certain point and yet it would stop. You know,
31:44
Speaker 5: it was like turning a tap off, and that's not
31:47
Speaker 5: natural conversation. You'll get into a conversation and you just
31:51
Speaker 5: determinated normally unless you don't want to speak about the
31:55
Speaker 5: next thing that you'd be spoken about.
31:58
Speaker 1: That was one of the things.
31:59
Speaker 2: So he was happy to incriminate his father, but possibly
32:03
Speaker 2: to leave himself out of the narrative. As you've said,
32:05
Speaker 2: you suspect that Harry didn't operate alone. Do you think
32:10
Speaker 2: Hayden might have been as accomplice on that day back
32:12
Speaker 2: in nine sixty six.
32:14
Speaker 5: We had discussed it, not with any great degree of
32:19
Speaker 5: serious intent in relation to it, just one of the
32:22
Speaker 5: things we would discuss as a possibility as you would.
32:26
Speaker 5: As you know, I think we don't just close your
32:28
Speaker 5: mind to anything we had discussed it as a possibility
32:32
Speaker 5: and we thought, well, we'll never know.
32:34
Speaker 1: We'll never know.
32:35
Speaker 7: Well, the other thing that Hayden said after Bill had
32:39
Speaker 7: completed his interview with him, when he helped Hayden get
32:44
Speaker 7: in the car, I remember Bill was saying. He looked
32:46
Speaker 7: up to Bill and said, are you going to get
32:48
Speaker 7: these bastards? It wasn't just one.
32:51
Speaker 5: That was on the second occasion when we met. I
32:54
Speaker 5: was leaving him at the hotel where I met him.
32:57
Speaker 5: His ex wife had gone to pick up the car
32:59
Speaker 5: to take them away, and the last body said to
33:02
Speaker 5: you was are you going to put these bastards in jail?
33:05
Speaker 1: Bill?
33:06
Speaker 5: I said, bastards, Hayden. There's only your father, isn't it.
33:12
Speaker 5: And I said the primary purpose what we are doing
33:15
Speaker 5: is to find the children, and he said they're in
33:18
Speaker 5: the ship pit.
33:19
Speaker 1: Bill.
33:19
Speaker 5: At that point his ex wife returned that I couldn't
33:22
Speaker 5: continue with the conversation. Unfortunately I never got to see
33:26
Speaker 5: him again because he died soon after.
33:28
Speaker 6: And because where was Harry at this time?
33:31
Speaker 1: Harry is deceased.
33:32
Speaker 2: He was already dead, So how could you put a
33:34
Speaker 2: dead man in jail? So Hayden is clearly holding back
33:38
Speaker 2: some other information.
33:39
Speaker 5: And he used the pure al bastards as opposed to bastard.
33:42
Speaker 5: Up to that point we'd only had Harry.
33:45
Speaker 2: Now the listeners have been waiting for the critical new information.
33:48
Speaker 6: Here it is.
33:49
Speaker 2: There was a note left on the fence that's really
33:51
Speaker 2: opened up a whole new leg of this investigation. Tell
33:55
Speaker 2: us about that note, what did it say and when
33:56
Speaker 2: was it left there?
33:57
Speaker 5: Well, Stuart received a phone call from a lady who
34:03
Speaker 5: wanted to tell him about sexual abuse, her own sexual
34:07
Speaker 5: ablution and her experience of being sexually abused by Harry Phipps.
34:13
Speaker 5: She was a bit reluctant, I think it's fair to say, Stuart,
34:16
Speaker 5: she was a bit reluctant to speak openly and fully,
34:20
Speaker 5: but promised that she would at one stage, but the
34:24
Speaker 5: circumstances of doing it over the phone didn't appeal to her.
34:27
Speaker 5: She wasn't going to talk in any great depth about
34:31
Speaker 5: it over the telephone.
34:33
Speaker 1: She was extremely afraid, and I remember.
34:37
Speaker 5: You telling me she's very very nervous about speaking to us,
34:41
Speaker 5: but was willing to continue to do that. Stuart, I
34:44
Speaker 5: think spoke to her on two or maybe three occasions
34:48
Speaker 5: and was filling me in as we went on what
34:52
Speaker 5: was being said, and it came to the point where
34:54
Speaker 5: we thought that perhaps she was time, maybe that I
34:58
Speaker 5: could have a chat to her as well to see
35:01
Speaker 5: what I made of what she was saying and Hans
35:03
Speaker 5: was saying it. So I rang her and spoke to her,
35:09
Speaker 5: and she had hinted to Stewart that she knew who
35:13
Speaker 5: had written the note that was placed on the gate
35:16
Speaker 5: on the fiftieth anniversary of the abduction of the children.
35:20
Speaker 5: During my conversation with her, she opened up to me
35:24
Speaker 5: that she was the person who wrote the note. She
35:27
Speaker 5: explained the note to us and described it as being
35:30
Speaker 5: done by a letterset, which we agreed we'd already worked
35:33
Speaker 5: that out ourselves by looking at the note, but she
35:36
Speaker 5: could also tell us the type of typewriter that she
35:40
Speaker 5: typed a note on for us to compare the typeset.
35:44
Speaker 5: I also asked her about the initials CS on the
35:48
Speaker 5: bottom of the note.
35:50
Speaker 1: It had CS dot dot dot, and I asked.
35:55
Speaker 5: That for obvious reasons, because her name and I can't
35:57
Speaker 5: tell you what it is, but her name didn't begin
36:00
Speaker 5: or have CS.
36:02
Speaker 1: Anywhere in it.
36:03
Speaker 5: So she is just told me that she wrote it
36:06
Speaker 5: as a cryptic clue to C. S. Lewis, who was
36:11
Speaker 5: the writer of The Lion the Witch in the Wardrobe,
36:14
Speaker 5: which at that time was Jane's favorite book, And she
36:18
Speaker 5: did it as a cryptic clue.
36:20
Speaker 6: And what did the note say?
36:22
Speaker 7: In short, it.
36:23
Speaker 5: Said two little girls were buried there, but the little
36:27
Speaker 5: boy was somewhere else, and you know how sorry they
36:32
Speaker 5: were for the children, that sort of note. But the
36:35
Speaker 5: important bit was the two girls were buried there and
36:38
Speaker 5: the little boy was buried somewhere else.
36:42
Speaker 7: But also in that note was again mentioned Harry Phipps
36:45
Speaker 7: and his was accomplices. Yeah, so that was mentioned again
36:50
Speaker 7: that there's others involved.
36:53
Speaker 2: So Bill, let's fast forward. You meet with this lady.
36:57
Speaker 2: What story did you have to tell? Well, I can
37:00
Speaker 2: set the scene a bit.
37:01
Speaker 5: I decided that on this occasion I would take the
37:05
Speaker 5: opportunity to audio tape the interview with her, also to
37:10
Speaker 5: videotape the interview, and at the end I would do
37:14
Speaker 5: a large detection test on her to see if she's
37:18
Speaker 5: telling us the truth. I met her at a place
37:22
Speaker 5: of her choosing, which was not in the state.
37:25
Speaker 1: Of South Australia, and spent.
37:28
Speaker 5: An entire day, a full day with her, discussing her
37:32
Speaker 5: story and her story, it's fair to say chilled me
37:38
Speaker 5: to the bone. Even though I've been around the block
37:41
Speaker 5: a few times, I was absolutely taken aback. She told
37:45
Speaker 5: the story of her being prostituted to pedophiles from the
37:50
Speaker 5: age of four years old by a senior female member
37:54
Speaker 5: of her family who would do it for money. Remember,
37:59
Speaker 5: other members of her family were also pedophiles, and they
38:02
Speaker 5: too had abused her sexually the years she told the
38:08
Speaker 5: story of On one occasion, because she was brought up
38:13
Speaker 5: outside of the state of South Australia and hadn't lived
38:17
Speaker 5: in South Australia, but a female member of her family
38:22
Speaker 5: and another man had taken her during the school holidays
38:27
Speaker 5: to Adelaide to visit a friend. A friend that they
38:32
Speaker 5: visited was in Castleoy in Clinton, South Australia, and it
38:39
Speaker 5: was Harry Phipps.
38:41
Speaker 8: Of interest is.
38:42
Speaker 5: On the way to meet with the family friend Phipps,
38:46
Speaker 5: she was given a bottle of cold drink and she
38:49
Speaker 5: had told me earlier in the conversation that one of
38:53
Speaker 5: the things that they would do before she was left
38:56
Speaker 5: for abuse by a pedophile was that they would give
38:59
Speaker 5: her ketamine to drug her out. She believed later that
39:05
Speaker 5: that bottle of coke had contained ketamide. She drank it
39:10
Speaker 5: and had gone and met with Phipps in his boardroom.
39:14
Speaker 5: He had taken them out to the foundry to have
39:17
Speaker 5: a look at the foundry. She had seen his car,
39:21
Speaker 5: and up to the point where she'd seen his car
39:23
Speaker 5: and she actually touched it. He'd be very nice to her.
39:28
Speaker 5: The minute she touched the car, he turned on her,
39:31
Speaker 5: as we knew Phipps could do, and snarled at her,
39:36
Speaker 5: get your fucking hands off, that it's a collector's item.
39:41
Speaker 5: So that bothered here because he that point he'd been
39:43
Speaker 5: really nice.
39:45
Speaker 1: Anyhow.
39:45
Speaker 5: Let me move on from that, and she recalls being
39:49
Speaker 5: taken into a cottage building on the site by Harry Phipps.
39:56
Speaker 5: She described the site to me and the building to me,
39:59
Speaker 5: and it was the building she described was Harry's cottage,
40:04
Speaker 5: the smaller of the two cottages on the Castley's site,
40:07
Speaker 5: which himself and Stuart had been into several times, which
40:11
Speaker 5: I've photo photographed the interior off. She described it pretty
40:16
Speaker 5: well and couldn't have given me that description unless she'd
40:20
Speaker 5: been there.
40:21
Speaker 1: She gave detail, some detail.
40:24
Speaker 5: So while she was in there, she was shown into
40:29
Speaker 5: a room at the back, and it was clothing on
40:32
Speaker 5: a rack, and there was women's dresses all sewn up
40:38
Speaker 5: in satin, made of satin, and she was asked by
40:42
Speaker 5: mister Phipps to choose one she likes. Was the one
40:45
Speaker 5: she liked which she liked to have? She picked one,
40:50
Speaker 5: and now at this stage I must have telled you
40:52
Speaker 5: she's only ten or twelve years old.
40:54
Speaker 1: She picked one.
40:56
Speaker 5: Then he took her into another pile of the building,
40:59
Speaker 5: which is a room with wood paneling in it, which
41:02
Speaker 5: again i've seen in photographed in the past, and because
41:07
Speaker 5: it comes up somewhere else in a story we've been
41:09
Speaker 5: told by someone, and he raped her, vaginally raped her.
41:16
Speaker 5: She described the rape, and then he left the room,
41:21
Speaker 5: lift and lying on the floor. A short time later,
41:24
Speaker 5: came back in wearing the satin dress that she'd chosen,
41:28
Speaker 5: at which time he turned her over.
41:30
Speaker 1: And he anally raped her.
41:32
Speaker 5: There are things that happened during that act that ties
41:37
Speaker 5: up with other things we've been told about Harry's m
41:40
Speaker 5: O and the things he does whilst he's committing that act.
41:45
Speaker 1: So during that act, as it.
41:47
Speaker 5: Was occurring, she lost all consciousness of what was around her.
41:51
Speaker 1: The ket of mine I'm assuming must have kicked in.
41:54
Speaker 1: She couldn't describe how she left the building. When she
41:58
Speaker 1: met up with a lady associate and the man, she
42:02
Speaker 1: just that was the last she could remember. It was
42:04
Speaker 1: Harry raping her. She then went on and spoke to
42:10
Speaker 1: me about the Bondmont children.
42:13
Speaker 5: I have to be a little bit reticent in some
42:17
Speaker 5: ways about what we're going to speak about. So the
42:22
Speaker 5: story of the children, I put a warning in the
42:25
Speaker 5: last chapter of the book. The last chapter of the
42:28
Speaker 5: book we've written is called a revelation. Stuart wrote one
42:31
Speaker 5: called the Drop, and I wrote one called the ship Hit,
42:37
Speaker 5: and the final one is the revelation, which is what
42:41
Speaker 5: this person's told me. She told me that the children
42:47
Speaker 5: were taken from the reserve, as we know, and we're
42:53
Speaker 5: taken to the cottages at Castleway. There they were subject
43:00
Speaker 5: to being raped. But prior to all happening, or in
43:04
Speaker 5: the first day while they were there, the little boy
43:09
Speaker 5: grand had done something was being a problem, something was happening,
43:14
Speaker 5: and he was taken away, taken to a non public area,
43:18
Speaker 5: a racetrack, where he was held in stables. The two
43:24
Speaker 5: girls remained at the cottage and were raped over the
43:31
Speaker 5: period two Days by Harry Phipps. By someone that will
43:40
Speaker 5: keep up our sleeve, but we will tell you it's
43:45
Speaker 5: someone that's very close to what we're doing.
43:47
Speaker 2: You'll have to read the book to get those final details,
43:50
Speaker 2: but I agreciate you sharing the main points of it.
43:52
Speaker 5: Yet, and another person whose name we had heard once before,
43:59
Speaker 5: back very early in the piece. Someone Hayden's cousin had
44:04
Speaker 5: mentioned this person to Stewart to see if we'd heard
44:07
Speaker 5: of anything about him, which we hadn't, and he was
44:11
Speaker 5: forgotten about until now his name has come up. We've
44:16
Speaker 5: done checks on that person and his.
44:20
Speaker 1: Name.
44:22
Speaker 5: It suggested from the people who tell us that we're
44:25
Speaker 5: not talking about police officers here. Someone had said to
44:28
Speaker 5: us that he was known to police as being a pedophile.
44:33
Speaker 1: This person.
44:34
Speaker 5: Now, the story of how all has happened is of
44:38
Speaker 5: itself unusual. But one of the men who'd been constantly
44:46
Speaker 5: sexually abusing the lady over the years had taken her
44:51
Speaker 5: up to the point of when she was twenty years old,
44:55
Speaker 5: and had taken it to where he lived and handcuffed
44:59
Speaker 5: to a table and kept her at this place for
45:02
Speaker 5: about a week. When she wasn't handcuffed to the table,
45:06
Speaker 5: he had a shotgun on her, and over the period
45:09
Speaker 5: that week he would rape her, continuously rape her. One
45:15
Speaker 5: evening was drunk. He got drunk and made what she
45:20
Speaker 5: called a drunken.
45:21
Speaker 1: Confession to her. The confession is what.
45:25
Speaker 5: I'm telling you, what you're hearing now, that he knew
45:30
Speaker 5: Harry and like Harry, like himself, Harry is a pedophile,
45:36
Speaker 5: and that he himself was a member of Harry's pedophile group.
45:40
Speaker 5: But on an occasion when he wasn't there, the Bobmont
45:43
Speaker 5: children had been taken to.
45:45
Speaker 1: This place and had been, as I told you, raped.
45:50
Speaker 5: The little boy had been taken away on the first
45:52
Speaker 5: hand to the racing track. The girls remained being raped.
45:57
Speaker 5: A physical assault, a very serious physical assault, had taken
46:02
Speaker 5: place on one of the children, which I can't repeat
46:06
Speaker 5: here and I haven't repeated in the book because it's sickening.
46:10
Speaker 5: But the little child was very heavily assaulted by Harry
46:13
Speaker 5: Fipps in a fit of rage, and we know that
46:17
Speaker 5: he had these fits of rage. The rape continued for
46:21
Speaker 5: about two days when the children were strangled.
46:26
Speaker 6: Shocking Harry is shocking Harry and the other.
46:30
Speaker 5: Person that I won't name at the stage helped the
46:34
Speaker 5: dig a hole, as did the person of man who
46:39
Speaker 5: we hadn't heard of before, helped the dig the hole
46:42
Speaker 5: to get rid of the children. They gave a description,
46:45
Speaker 5: or he gave a description to the lady of something
46:49
Speaker 5: that was in that hole. Now that hole became important
46:54
Speaker 5: to us at around the time all this happened, because
46:58
Speaker 5: we were about the digger hole at the sight of
47:01
Speaker 5: the very area that he had nominated as what it.
47:05
Speaker 1: Children have been buried the very.
47:06
Speaker 2: Area that's the site in early twenty twenty five when
47:10
Speaker 2: the dig took place.
47:11
Speaker 5: That's the last one leading up to the Easter weekend,
47:15
Speaker 5: and then the day after the Easter weekend. So he
47:19
Speaker 5: said about something that happened there during the burial process,
47:23
Speaker 5: and where it was the lo case it was, and
47:27
Speaker 5: love and behold on the last air of the dig.
47:29
Speaker 1: When we dug in that area, which of where we
47:32
Speaker 1: now knew was the.
47:33
Speaker 5: Ship pit, and we dug in that area which I'll
47:36
Speaker 5: tell you it was beside a peppercorn tree about three
47:40
Speaker 5: feet down, we found exactly what he said would be there.
47:46
Speaker 5: So there was some credibility to what he was saying,
47:50
Speaker 5: because he would have no way of knowing that was
47:53
Speaker 5: there unless a he was told about it in detail,
47:56
Speaker 5: which I doubt.
47:58
Speaker 1: Or be he was there himself, which I think he was.
48:02
Speaker 2: So these allegations are included in the new edition of
48:06
Speaker 2: your book, and they are very compelling, and you seem
48:11
Speaker 2: to have been able to corroborate what this lady said.
48:13
Speaker 2: You've done it on a polygraph. You're able to connect
48:16
Speaker 2: her experiences with your own eyewitness accounts of those cottages.
48:19
Speaker 2: There there's enough for this that must be investigated. And
48:23
Speaker 2: my question for South Australia is why has the Coroner
48:28
Speaker 2: of South Australia never held an inquest? Imagine that they've
48:32
Speaker 2: never held an inquest into all the information the investigation
48:37
Speaker 2: into the disappearance and probable murder of the Beaumont children.
48:41
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is, Bill, You're a South Australia,
48:43
Speaker 2: You're living in South Australia. Now, why won't they bring
48:45
Speaker 2: this to the coroner?
48:48
Speaker 5: The only thing I can think of it's still supposedly
48:51
Speaker 5: inverted commers in actively investigated case. That's the only possibility
48:56
Speaker 5: I could find. I can't see a reason why there's
49:00
Speaker 5: been no corrolling inquiry.
49:01
Speaker 1: It's a standing.
49:03
Speaker 2: Because I think there's serious questions to be asked about
49:06
Speaker 2: the police investigation.
49:08
Speaker 6: What's happening now?
49:09
Speaker 2: I simply do not believe that there is an active
49:12
Speaker 2: investigation going on right now. I think there's been a
49:15
Speaker 2: lot of leads followed, nothing's come up, and now, as
49:18
Speaker 2: is common with cold cases, they're waiting for some new information.
49:23
Speaker 2: I think it's time the coroner actually was proactive and said,
49:26
Speaker 2: let's analyze every piece of information and call for that
49:30
Speaker 2: little scrap of information that could corroborate or even eliminate, because,
49:35
Speaker 2: let's face it, the Phipps family lives with these allegations.
49:38
Speaker 2: Now it's in their interest as well as the Beaumonts
49:41
Speaker 2: and the rest of the people of South Australia, let
49:44
Speaker 2: alone Australia, that some kind of certainty is riched at.
49:49
Speaker 7: But can I add that it's also some glaring mismanagement
49:54
Speaker 7: from the detectives that Hayden and Angela, his wife, were
49:59
Speaker 7: never met and never interviewed by detectives. That's the first
50:05
Speaker 7: two people Bill wanted to meet. They were the first
50:07
Speaker 7: two people I needed to meet to ascertain their truthfulness.
50:11
Speaker 7: But did detectives meet an interview?
50:14
Speaker 1: No?
50:15
Speaker 7: How can it be a thorough case? I suppose in
50:17
Speaker 7: a coronial inquest that will come out. It was mismanaged.
50:20
Speaker 7: In my opinion.
50:22
Speaker 2: I found there was a tremendous reluctance even from retired
50:25
Speaker 2: judicial figures in South Australia to agree to a coronial inquest.
50:29
Speaker 2: We spoke to John Sullen, former Supreme Court Judge of
50:32
Speaker 2: South Australia, and he said, oh, only if there was
50:35
Speaker 2: fresh and compelling evidence should there be a coronial inquest.
50:38
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what what they're actual? I mean, We've seen
50:42
Speaker 2: around the world these long time cold cases be opened
50:47
Speaker 2: in the interest of transparency, in the interest of some
50:50
Speaker 2: possible closure being arrived at. For instance, Derek Ernest Percy,
50:54
Speaker 2: the notorious child killer, probably murt a little girl called
50:58
Speaker 2: Linda Stillwell, Victoria. There was an inquest by the coroner
51:01
Speaker 2: into that case. It gave that family some sense, but
51:05
Speaker 2: there was someone caring. After all these years, Jim and
51:08
Speaker 2: Nancy Beaumont have gone to their graves not knowing there
51:11
Speaker 2: are still Beaumont family members out there who are still
51:14
Speaker 2: looking for truth. How does it feel you two, your
51:18
Speaker 2: odd couple, your dad's army of investigators, to be the
51:21
Speaker 2: ones carrying the torch for justice? When it should be
51:24
Speaker 2: the coroner and the Police of South Australia.
51:27
Speaker 7: Well, I suppose with us, it's something we wanted to do.
51:31
Speaker 7: I always felt there was something we were given to
51:34
Speaker 7: do and we've done it and I'm glad I met
51:36
Speaker 7: Bill to do that. So we understand that, you know,
51:39
Speaker 7: with the Coroner's inquestal lack thereof, and also with some
51:42
Speaker 7: members of the police force that as Bill said, you
51:45
Speaker 7: know they're not going to be told by members of
51:47
Speaker 7: the public how to do their job. And as you said, Bill,
51:50
Speaker 7: being a former detective, no way. So as far as
51:54
Speaker 7: I'm concerned, I think I'll close up shop.
51:57
Speaker 6: Are you Fellas done?
51:58
Speaker 9: Now?
52:00
Speaker 7: No goodness, no more to go? And Bill just alluded
52:04
Speaker 7: to that with a book coming out in all bookshops,
52:08
Speaker 7: is that it's that last chapter. I must admit, it's
52:11
Speaker 7: that last chapter that really brings everything together from what
52:15
Speaker 7: they bought at Wenzel's Bakery, what they bought then, and
52:19
Speaker 7: then you have a look at that last chapter. God,
52:21
Speaker 7: it makes sense, It absolutely makes sense.
52:24
Speaker 2: Because this has been a labor of love. I don't
52:26
Speaker 2: think you've made a cent out of this. You've got
52:28
Speaker 2: a decent publisher on board now, Simon and s justed
52:30
Speaker 2: well done for that, and this book is now going
52:32
Speaker 2: into national so you would hope that another ground swell
52:36
Speaker 2: of momentum is brought about by the release of the
52:39
Speaker 2: new edition and that that piece of information comes forward
52:42
Speaker 2: that just allows you to finish your work, because boy
52:45
Speaker 2: should have a rest. Really, I think, let me get
52:47
Speaker 2: the glory if I possibly can the book.
52:49
Speaker 7: What this book will also do is that if there's
52:52
Speaker 7: also there's been people that have come forward to say
52:55
Speaker 7: they were sexually abused by Phipps, that is only the
52:58
Speaker 7: tip of the iceberg. And we know in cases like
53:01
Speaker 7: this Jared Risdale, the Catholic priest, he had fifty four
53:05
Speaker 7: counts of child sexual abuse against him. They don't stop
53:08
Speaker 7: at one. They don't stop until they're court. Harry Phipps
53:12
Speaker 7: was never caught, so there's other victims out there.
53:15
Speaker 6: Guys. Thanks for your time today.
53:17
Speaker 2: The book is Unmasking the Killer of the Beaumont Children.
53:20
Speaker 2: It's out on Simon and Schuster. Please have a read
53:22
Speaker 2: of it. Everyone out there, guys, I've got to say
53:24
Speaker 2: to you, I'm really proud of the work you've done
53:25
Speaker 2: on behalf of the Beaumont family and the people of
53:28
Speaker 2: South Australia. Let's hope that it brings some form of closure,
53:33
Speaker 2: new information, whatever it is.
53:34
Speaker 6: Thanks for your time today.
53:35
Speaker 8: Thank you very much, really appreciate it.
53:37
Speaker 1: Thank you.
53:40
Speaker 2: That was Stuart Mullins and Bill Hayes. The book is
53:43
Speaker 2: unmasking the killer of the Beaumont Children. It's time for
53:47
Speaker 2: the Coroner of South Australia to get involved.
53:49
Speaker 6: It really is.
53:50
Speaker 2: It's not surprising that South Australia has never had a
53:53
Speaker 2: High Court justice in its history. There's a different kind
53:56
Speaker 2: of justice in South Australia and I'm sure people in
53:59
Speaker 2: the state will know what I'm talking about. If you're
54:02
Speaker 2: out there with any kind of information, now is the
54:06
Speaker 2: time to bring it forward. You've got two investigators here
54:08
Speaker 2: who are very very keen. I'm also keen, so if
54:11
Speaker 2: you want to get in touch, you can call Crime
54:12
Speaker 2: Stoppers one eight hundred, Triple three, Triple zero. I'm not
54:15
Speaker 2: sure how much joy you're going to get because I
54:18
Speaker 2: think there's a fatigue in the South Australian police about
54:20
Speaker 2: looking at new lines of investigation. They're waiting for the
54:23
Speaker 2: answers to be dropped on their doorstep. But there are
54:26
Speaker 2: other people who are keen to get it. You can
54:28
Speaker 2: also email me Adam Shann, writer at gmail dot com
54:33
Speaker 2: and I will pass on the information to these two
54:35
Speaker 2: indefatigable investigators. This has been real crime with Adam Shanned.
54:39
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Adam Shann. Thank you for listening.
54:49
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54:52
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