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Nostalgia: The Dunning-Kruger Effect · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: confidently ignorant host Abraham.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: And I'm your diagnosing everybody after my first abnormal psychology
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: class host Shane Oh.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Very good. We are a psychology podcast. We talk about
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: the things that we do in psychology or in behavior
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: and the things that humans do and animals, and sometimes
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: we talk about things that we do badly, and one
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: of those things is estimating our own skills sometimes. But
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: this is actually a nostalgia episode. This means that we
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: have we previously recorded this episode on July seventeenth, twenty nineteen,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: is when this was published on The Dunning Krueger Effect.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: This is one of my favorite topics because it's just
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: so astounding how confident I will wish I had the
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: amount of confidence that people have when they don't know things.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: You know, that's what I'm thinking, like this intelligence is
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: a curse. Really disagree, but that's okay.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: So how these work, these nostalgia episodes work is that
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: we are going to replay the entire original episode and
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: then we are going to tack on a bit of
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: discussion at the end, adding some new stuff for some
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: new takes or some new information or whatever to the
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: end of the episode, so that it's not just a
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: replay entirely, but you also get some new content as well.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I would like to say that if you're joining us
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: for the first time, welcome, thank you for being here.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: We typically release our full length episodes on Wednesdays. We
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: release a sort of short form mini episode on Mondays,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: and every once in a while, a few times a year,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: we'll we'll release a previously recorded episode, which is the
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: case now. This is, as I mentioned, one that we
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: published originally in twenty nineteen, and we'll be expanding a
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: little bit on it at the end of the replay
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: section of this. Yes, absolutely, but before we do all
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: of that, it is September eleventh, which means we have
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: some holidays to or like days of remembrance to acknowledge,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: and one of them is ye, that is September eleventh.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: This is the September eleventh Day of remembering of remembrance
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  Speaker 1: has been twenty four years. Twenty three years, I guess
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: since the original event of September eleventh, nine to eleven yep,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: so worth keeping that in our minds.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: It's also Emergency number Day.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: That makes sense. Yeah, I want to start my own
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: business day. Sure, go out and do it.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sure. It's Libraries Remember Day, which is concerning,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: like how much do they remember?
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: I was just wondering. I was like, are we supposed
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: to remember libraries? Or is this library is holding on
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: to like scandalous information.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: I think that's the It's the latter to me. Oh no,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: that's how I unders said that.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Oh no, Well, fortunately their knowledge stopped several decades ago
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: when people stopped going to libraries. So at least they're
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: a little outdate.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Especially here in Florida.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're empty now. They memories are hollow. It is
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: make your bed Today.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Yes it is. It's the National Day of Service and
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Remembrance Day.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: All of that makes a lot of sense. It's National
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Emergency Responder Day. I see a theme emerging here.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a few of them. It's National Hot Cross
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: bun Day.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: It's National No News is Good News Day, which again
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: seem as related.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd like to avoid it. I guess it's odd Day,
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: which is interesting because the last odd day was nine
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  Speaker 2: to eleven twenty thirteen.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Wait, how could this be odd day if it's nine
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  Speaker 1: eleven twenty twenty four.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know that's what it said.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, sure, Maybe it's just as that's what it's eleven.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: It's like prime number. I don't know.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: While we do some more talking about holidays, let me
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: look this up.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, great, all right, Well related to all of the
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: other days that it is today. So it's nine to eleven,
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  Speaker 1: Remembrance Emergency Number, Day of Service and remembrance no news
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  Speaker 1: is good news, and Patriot Day and Freedom daymer remember
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: Freedom Day? So we have all of them all lumped together.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's also Women's Baseball Day, which is wonderful. So
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: go watch what great movies?
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: No crime in baseball, No, there's not.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: There is no evidence the odd day is real, by the.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Way, Okay, it's just odd. It happens irregularly, and that's
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: what makes it odd.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, maybe it's because it was eleven years ago and
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: eleven is an odd number. I don't know, man, Oh,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It is Direct Support Professional Week.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is International Air Ambulance Week.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: That is International Housekeepers Week.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Ooh, it's line dance Week as well. Terrible week.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: There's this interesting stuff about line dances, and they've tried
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: to make that like a national dance or a state dance.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: A bunch of times. It is a National Assisted Living Week.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: It's National Biscuits and Gravy Week, which I love.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: It is National Environmental Services Week, and.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: It is National Suicide Prevention Week to go along with
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Suicide Prevention Month.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: It is also National Quiet Day, I found out, which
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: kind of makes sense.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Oh and here we are talking loudly into this thing.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I know, so loud, and it is Fair Trade Fortnite
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: and also apparently Sexual Health Week.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: Oh great, it's so many things.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Taraji p Henson's birthday and Ludacris's birthday.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Oh good, Okay, they're both great.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Anyway, what do we do talk about the holidays? I
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: know there's a lot going on today and this week
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  Speaker 1: and this month.
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  Speaker 2: Uh huh.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Apparently I didn't know this, but September is the most
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: popular birth month. Most people are born in September.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody's bringing in the new year with a bang,
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: if you know what I mean. Happy Sex Health Week.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, we do talk about these holidays for sort
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: of fun thing to do, but also what we come
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: here to do is talk about psychology things, which I
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: think that I said before. But we are a college podcast, Yes,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: but we are. We're visiting this episode abobout the Dunning
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Kruger effect, one of the more well I think, more
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: popular and well known about effects in all of psychology.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I would guess, I think so.
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  Speaker 2: But I mean that's us thinking that we know more
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: about this than we do.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: That's a very good point. Yeah, I should not be
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: so confident in my assumptions here. But what we're going
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: to do is we're going to go ahead and jump
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: into this episode. We're going to play it in its entirety,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: and then at the end we're going to come back
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: and we're going to add a little bit of context.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: I already said all of that, but just as a
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: reminder before I do that, I will tell you really
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: quick that if you like what you hear today and
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: would like to support us, you can join us on Patreon,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: pick up some merch, leave us a rating and review,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: like subscribe, tell a friend, maybe invent a psychological construct
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: and then name it after us if it's a positive
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: information disseminating one. Yeah, but that's what we're doing here.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: So anyway, please enjoy this now five year old episode
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: about the Dunning Krueger effect, and then at the end
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: we will update you on some new stuff that we've found.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: All right, this is Abraham and this is Shane. So
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: welcome to Why We Do What We Do.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Your favorite consumable psychology podcast.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: All right, Shane, we need to just jump right into
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: this because I have a story I'm very excited to
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: tell you, and audience, I'll tell you this is so
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: far my favorite story that I've been able to tell.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: So I hope I do a justice. I don't want
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: to overhype it too much, but I think I think
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: it'll be fun. Okay, So let's set the stage for
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: someone whose name is MacArthur Wheeler. And maybe you've already
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: heard the story. Maybe not, but it's a great name
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: to begin with. Already, MacArthur Wheeler. Yeah, it's nineteen ninety four,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, and we're in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Great yeah,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: great city, and we're going to imagine here that. So
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: we've got little MacArthur. I'm not entirely sure how old
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: he is at this point. He's probably in his mid
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: twenties or so, and maybe he's got this older brother
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: who is like communicating with people through these pieces of paper,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: and MacArthur's like, I'm going to find out what's going
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: on here. So he grabs a piece of paper and
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: it's completely blank, and he later learns that there was
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: a hidden message on the piece of paper that was
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: written in invisible ink. Now I just made up all
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: that stuff about his brother. I have no idea, but
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: either way, he learned about this idea that messages can
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: be hidden on piece of paper by writing them in
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: lemon juice. Right, you write them on lemon juice, and
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: what happens is that the lemon juice just blends right
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: into the paper, looks like it's not even there. And
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: then what happens is if you hold that paper over
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: some kind of light or heating sore. It's probably not
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: like a flame because it'll just burn the paper. Paper
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: is pretty flammable. You hold over something like low low heat,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: like a light, what it does is that it'll actually
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: oxidize the lemon juice and it'll turn the juice brown,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: and then it can now be read. So that's this
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: whole idea of the invisible ink sort of where that
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: one way that where that comes from? Okay, Okay, the
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: budding scientist that MacArthur Wheeler was, he was intrigued and
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: inspired the power that the lemons had to create this
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: invisible ink, right, And unfortunately he then found himself pretty
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: soon after that in a situation where he really needed
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: some cash. I'm guessing to pay off his espionage and
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: scientific training, because he's just you know, he's intrigued in
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: these things, of course, But regardless of whatever it was,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: he found that he really needed some cash, and so
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: he decided to go out and buy a bunch of
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: lemons because he had a plan. And so on April nineteenth,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, the middle of the day, Wheeler walks
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  Speaker 1: into a bank, pulls out a gun, and demands the money.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: So did he squirt lemons juice in their eyes or something?
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: No?
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, so I need to know how these lemons work, Like,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: what's the deal with the lemons?
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: I'm getting there. But he wasn't done yet. After he
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: robs that bank, he goes into another bank and does
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: the exact same thing, not scorting lemons, just in their eyes,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: but he has purched all these lemons. We'll get to
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: in a moment. Now. Interestingly, the bankers may have been
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: a little bit confused at how much Wheeler was was
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: sort of cringing and blinking while he's there, and we'll
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: come into this, Okay, So why are the lemons relevant? Well,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: MacArthur was not actually wearing any kind of mask or
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: disguise or hiding his voice or face in any way whatsoever.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: And it's the middle of the day, on regular day
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: of week. And I mean it's nineteen ninety five, which
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: at this point was quite a while ago. But even
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: back then, banks had security cameras, and in fact, Wheeler
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: knew that they had security cameras. Interestingly, then the police,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: of course see the security footage that identify who the
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: person is who robbed these banks, and they arrive at
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: his home to arrest him, and they even show him
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: some of the videos, saying like, you robbed a bank.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Here's a video of you robbing the bank, and what
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: do you think that he maybe said.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm I could imagine he would say something like
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: how did you know it was me? Or like how
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: did you see me?
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're actually not as far off as I thought
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: you might be. What he said is, but I wore
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: the juice, and the police here are kind of confused
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: by that. Response is you might imagine you see and
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: you maybe figured this out as I was talking about it.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: MacArthur Wheeler reasoned that because this lemon juice can can
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: work to make invisible ink, it must be the properties
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: of lemons that grant this invisibility. And so he explains
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: to the police that he had rubbed lemon juice all
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: over his face before robbing the banks because the lemon juice,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: he believed made him invisible. Oh that there was no
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: way people could identify him and the cameras wouldn't be
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: able to see him because he would be invisible because
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: he juice on his face.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: That is one of the best things I've ever heard.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: And so, of course, at first, the very first thing
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: he said is if he says, okay, I rubbed lemon
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: juice on my face, then the cops sort of thought
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: maybe he's on drugs, or maybe he's drunk or something.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Not totally sure.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: No, he was not.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: He was just that wrong. He apparently even said that
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: he had tested it by taking a picture of himself
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: with lemon juice on his face and claimed that he
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: couldn't see himself in the picture really, which leads me
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: to speculate a little bit in terms of what may
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: have happened here that that would have been the effect.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: My first guess is that he actually had the camera
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: pointed away from him, and so that when he took
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: the picture and he wasn't in it, it's because the
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: camera wasn't pointed at him at all. My second guess
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: is that he did point the camera toward him, but
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: pointed it so far out of the way that he
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: couldn't actually see himself. And my third guest, I don't
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: actually even know what else could be another option here.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Those are to make any sense.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: That's amazing, I know now.
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  Speaker 1: Hilariously, he even and as I mentioned before, he reported
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: that the lemon juice had made the robberies difficult because
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: the lemon juice had been getting in his eyes and
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: they was stinging his eyes as he was trying to
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: rout them.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: That's why he's blinking.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Exactly, That's why he was blinking and cringing. He was
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: easily convicted and sent to jail, as you might imagine.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's one of the best things I've
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: ever heard, Like legitimately, so how wait, so how does
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: he explain lemonade?
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: I know, right? And I also was thinking. I was
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: thinking of, like, do you really believe that you're the
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: first person in all of human history if this had
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: if this had been true, let's like lemons actually make
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: you invisible. You're the first person in human history to
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: figure this out and try and use it for nefarious reasons,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Like wouldn't armies be like growing lemon orchards and like
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: gigantic acres to cover their soldiers in lemon juice so
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: that they could like going right on the territory? Like
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: who wouldn't have done capitalized on this if that was
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: the thing? Yeah, soldiers from Florida would have been unstoppable.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: There's so much citrus here, the Floridian soldiers, that's right. Yeah,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: maybe it's just citrus generally speaking. Maybe even eating it
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: makes you invisible. I don't know.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: So that's amazing, all right.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: So anyway, yeah, I just had to share that story.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: And this is actually gonna factor and even more relevant
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: when we start talking about what we're talking about today,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: which I haven't announced yet, but we're gonna get to
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: in just a moment. First, moving on from the exciting
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: story that we just told chain. How good of a
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: driver do you think you are compared to other drivers?
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: I think I'm a pretty good driver, like I think,
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I think it depends on your definition of good. I
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: would argue that I'm a very safe driver.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough. Did you know that I'm giving you
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: the statistics a little bit wrong here? But it's something
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: like ninety percent of people believe that they are better
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: drivers than ninety percent of people.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: That's amaz. That's so ninety percent of people think they're
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: they're they're in the top ten percent of good drivers.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, I have been surveyed. That is to say that
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: people kind of radically overestimate how good of a driver
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: they really are, right, Yeah, And I have a story
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: about myself as well. I think the theme is starting
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: to become a little bit more clear here as we're
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: going through this. But when I was learning to play
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: the drums, I remember thinking that I was the greatest
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: thing ever at it. And then I started listening to
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: really really good drummers and I started learning really really
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: difficult music and discovered I'm not that good at playing
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: the drums at least when I was picking up and
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I certainly got a lot better. But certainly I'm not
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: in like the top ten drummers of all time. I just,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: you know, was I got proficient enough that I could
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: I could play the drums well and would be able
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: to navigate them like anybody who spend a lot of
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: time learning to play the drums. And then another one
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: example for myself is coming right out of undergrad I
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: believe that I knew just about everything that there was
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: to know in the field that I had studied in.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: And then I went to graduate school, Yeah, and realized
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: that I knew very very little. And the longer I
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: was in graduate school, the more I realized how little
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I really knew about the scope and depth of the
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: field that I belonged to. And I feel like I've
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: heard the story from other people as well that the
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: more you know, the more you realize how little you know.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: And that's kind of a thing. There's so many good
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: examples of this that I think if you look at
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Steve Carell's character on the American version of the Office,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: he plays Michael Scott, He's someone who often seems to
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: think that he knows a lot about things and makes
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: hilariously stupid mistakes because he thinks he knows too much.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: The character Jason on the show The Good Place is
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: also someone who is portrayed as being incredibly stupid, but
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: like is overly confident that they describe as having massively
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: unearned confidence and just thinking that he knows a lot
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: about what he's going to do, and he ends up
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: This is sort of a spoiler if you haven't seen
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: the show, so skip ahead about ten seconds. But he
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: ends up dying because he locks himself in a safe
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: while wearing a scuba mask, thinking that the scuba mask
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: is going to help him breathe while he's in the safe,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: even though it's not. There's no air hole out of
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: the safe or anything. And then there's a story I
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: just mentioned about MacArthur Wheeler. There's this effect that people
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: will speak with conviction, loudly, emotionally and with authority and
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: boisterous claims, unconcerned about how little they really know about something.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: And it turns out that this effect that I've been
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: describing for the last ten minutes and in great detail
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: actually has a name. And interestingly, and this was just
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: a coincidence, but this year just happens to be the
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: twenty year anniversary of the publication of this effect, and
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: I want to make sure, because we're talking about this,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: that we were careful to avoid sounding like we know
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: too much about this and for today's discussion, so that
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: we avoid falling victim to the tendency to overestimate how
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: much we really know about this. And this is called
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: the Dunning Krueger effect.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, yes, I feel like this, Like being on this
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: podcast has made me realize how little I know. So
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: thankfully I'm self aware enough to recognize that this effect
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: is pretty interesting to see. Like you see people really
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: really dig into stuff, and you're like, that is not
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: even close to accurate.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So this falls under what a category of
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: what might be called cognitive bias. And so this is
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: essentially a thing that people often tend to do that
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: is biased toward a particular I guess tendency that may
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: or may not well in this case, is not accurate.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: Usually we talk about these types of cognitive biases, they
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: tend to be something that is a mistake in a
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: way of thinking or sort of a logical error in
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: one's thinking. And one of the foundational pieces about the
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Dunning Kruger effect is another psychological process or bias called
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: confirmation bias, and this is basically what it sounds like, Okay, Essentially,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: the gist of this is that we can't possibly know
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: everything in the world, so we learn about you know,
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: we learn what we can as much as we can
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: when we can, and we we can be fairly selective
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: and what we choose to learn while still spending a
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: lot of time and effort on that sliver of information
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: that we chose to take on. Now, because of this,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: we can have the impression that we have really done
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: our due diligence and learning about our topic of interest.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: And confirmation bias is when we then look for information
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: that confirms our pre existing beliefs, and we ignore or
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: dismiss any irrelevant information that contradicts our pre existing beliefs,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: and we only recall in a way that allows us
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: to feel more correct about those beliefs. And so the
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: reason that these are related is because as we go
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: about learning things, as I said, we're gonna just sort
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: of we have to choose what we're going to learn.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: There are some things about which we can learn everything
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: there is to know, but there are a lot of
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: things that we can't. And so when we only choose
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: those things that confirm the beliefs that we already have,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: then we are falling victim to that confirmation by us.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: A very clear example of this are the flat earthers.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, flat earthers, Yeah, and it's they have members all
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: around the globe. Did you know that?
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: That's right? I remember you telling me that, And I
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: had recently watched the documentary that is at the time
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: of this recording on Netflix called Beyond the Curve, which
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: is a great documentary, and in this you see this
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: so clearly, where there is an abundance of information that
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: the Earth is not flat so much that I don't
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: I can't really wrap my head around the position that
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: they take, but they will specifically ignore all of that,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: downplay it, give it some very bizarre explanation for how
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: it's the case, and the only will accept information that
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: confirms their pre existing opinion. UFO hunters, same exact thing.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And like in visiting mediums, and there's there's a
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: lot of different and those are I feel like these
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: examples of people that seem like they have like more
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: outlandish types of beliefs, like we talk about like ghost
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: hunters and stuff like that, and how it it kind
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: of like perpetuates Bigfoot, like all the cryptozoology stuff like,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: which is really interesting to see, but it's not like
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: what ends up happening is people kind of talking the
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: echo chamber, right Like they kind of like they collaborate
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: and they corroborate with people that share those same opinions,
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: and they kind of back and forth confirm each other
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: and then and eventually it turns into this big thing.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: And these are kind of more like funny or like
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: less harmful I would say, types of examples. But you
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: see this in like American politics right now, very specifically,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: nobody can have like a conversation about discourse when you're
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: talking about different political ideologies, Like nobody can really have
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: that conversation because of they speak in these echo chambers
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: and they kind of confirm their own things, even though
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: data might present something else.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you see people who will make arguments
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: foreign against immigration, and they will only accept information that
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: confirms their opinion about that thing, or foreign against GMOs
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: or foreign against vaccines, and like some of these things
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: there are relatively clear there's relatively clear scientific information that
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: backs up those things. Now, all of this is just
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: talking about confirmation by us, cause we need to get
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: into the actual Dunning Kruger effect thing. But the point
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: of this is that this tends to be pretty emotionally
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: charged and often about these controversial topics, as you had mentioned,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: and so people will get when they're that emotionally invested
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: in something, then they will absolutely dig in their heels
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: and put their backs up against the wall in terms
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: of refusing to admit an alternative their position.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it just kind of snowballs from there. So
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: it becomes a little bit of a problem because then
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: they just kind of like their opinion flies in the
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: face of are you like their perceived facts fly in
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: the face of, like, what's the actual truth?
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Before we talk about whatever, the next thing will be,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: let's do some ads, all right, getting back to what
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: we're doing. So let's go ahead and get into the
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: background of the Dunning Krueger effect. Now, if you were
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: to actually read the original article, the very first paragraph
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: describes the story about MacArthur Wheeler, and so there is
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: I saw some sources that actually indicated that the entire
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: research line that was spawned by the Dunning Krueger effect
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: was in fact inspired by the incredible level of confidence
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: that MacArthur Wheeler must have had when he went into
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: rob those banks. And so these two psychologists Dunning nan
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Krueger I'll talk about more in a second, they actually
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: set out to do some experiments on this effect of
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: this sort of high confidence low competence in human bias
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: that led to Wheeler's unfortunate decision. Now, about four years
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: after Wheeler's story, so we're now in nineteen ninety nine,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: we have doctor David Dunning, and he deigned to disseminate
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: with his graduate student at the time, graduate student Justin Krueger,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: and they published a paper outlining the effect that was
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: a observed with respect to this overconfidence thing.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so this paper that they put out in
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine was called Unskilled and Unaware of It
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: how difficulties in recognizing one's own incompetence lead to inflated
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: self assessments, which is just such a great it's a
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: great title.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Isn't that so good? Like it's so good. Scientific papers
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: do not need to have these boring and dull titles
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: like that. This is like one of the most highly
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: cited publication ever and has this awesome title.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: So have you seen that thing? In academia where you
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: say Harry Potter and the and that's like a new movie,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: like Harry Potter and the Unskilled and Unaware of it,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: how difficult, Like this one doesn't fit as well, but
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: some of them do, and you're like, oh, that's good, No,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: that's awesome.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Harry Potter and the self assessment of incompetence among those
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: with Dunning Krueger effect, Like you know, you might do
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: something like that. It's pretty cool.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: There you go. All right, So this effect, as it's
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: clear now, and as I mentioned earlier, has become famous
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: and known appropriately enough as the Dunning Krueger effect, and
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: their original paper described four experiments used to examine the effect.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: So let's go ahead and dive into those experiments, all right.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: So as part of these four experiments, they tested humor, grammar,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: logical and calibrating competence. So they kind of tested all
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: these things. And in the first experiment, sixty five participants
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: were asked how good they were judging whether or not
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: something could be perceived as funny, which is great because
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: I think things are hilarious, so that I would be
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: a participant in this, and then asked to do that
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: very thing. So those participants who presume to be among
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: the greatest judges of humor performed worse than all the
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: other participants, whereas those that guessed that they weren't exceptional
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: judges but were actually pretty knowledgeable about the content, they
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: actually performed pretty well, at least closer to that predicted
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: level across subjects.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now I think you might be able to look
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: at this and immediately recognize, well, humor's pretty subjective, and
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: whether or not someone does well at being funny is
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: going to depend on their audience and various other sort
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: of subjective interpretations. And the authors recognize this, and so,
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: concerned with that subjectivity of something like humor and interested
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: in seeing whether they could replicate those results with the
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: different group, they chose a more sort of objective test
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: to try their experiment again in a different domain, so
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: an experiment too. They had forty five undergraduate students, of course,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: because where else would you get your population from, right,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: And they told those students that they were taking a
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: logic slash reasoning test, and then after the test they
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: were asked to estimate their logic slash reasoning ability compared
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: to the other students specifically, so how well do you
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: think that you did compared to the other students who
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: would also take this test? And also how well they
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: did compare to other people taking the test, and how
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: many of the answers they actually got correctly. So they
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: were like, how good do you think you are logic reasoning?
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: How much better at this do you think? Or how
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: well do you think you did this compared to other students?
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: How many do you think you got correct Those are
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: sort of the three ways that they asked them this
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: that it produced one of the most famous graphs ever. Actually,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: all of these experiments have for very similar graphs, but
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: this is this one in particular I saw being used
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: in other publications elsewhere, and which is clearly observed that
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: on average, participants righting themselves at least on par with
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: much more competence to students and then performed at the
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: bottom twenty twenty fifth percentile, the bottom quartile of the
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: entire distribution, whereas students who were more competent actually rated
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: themselves about the same and even in some cases less
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: than those other students than the least competent performers, and
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: they actually did much better than they guessed that they
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: would do. So those people who What you saw is
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: that people rated themselves fairly similarly in terms of what
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: they expected, but the highest performers actually really outperformed where
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: they rated themselves, and the lowest performers way overestimated how
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: well their performance was. Now, those people that did know
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: quite a bit more about the subject, they were closer
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to their actual performance, but they still did underrate themselves
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: a little bit.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: I love that. It just speaks to the idea that, like,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: besides the fact that people overestimate their competence, that there
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: are people who are competent that way underestimated too. Like
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: I liked that there's that other side of the coin.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: But I think that's pretty interesting. I feel like that's
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: probably where maybe the discussion around imposter syndrome get sparked
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: a little bit, Like ooh, I like that. You know. So,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Experiment three followed basically the same format, and this time
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: with eighty four undergrad participants, so they had a pretty
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: big pool of undergrads. That's great, like, yeah, right, lucky
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: for them. And so the results were very similar to
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: the first two tests, and they need to follow up
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: that they called takes one to know One.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I just love their titles. They're so good.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: I love that they're like just very like they're just
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: very human scientists. Like that's so great.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in the takes one to know.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: One follow up, What they did was they asked the
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: lowest and highest performing students to grade these tests from
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: other students by answering how many they thought the other
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: students had answer correctly, that's that's so good, right, is
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: that clever? And then they received their own tests back
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: and were asked to guess how well they performed relative
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: to the test they had graded.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: So this one's just getting a little bit deeper dive
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: on how people would rate themselves in comparison to others
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: and giving them sort of another way of looking at it.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: When they not only do they just guess how well
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: they performed, but they actually look at other performance and
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: then try and guess how well they perform.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: This is such a deep dive. This is so great.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: So the low performers increased their perceived performance of themselves
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: on average, unable to recognize their own weaknesses, and became
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: even less accurate at gauging their abilities. So they found
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: that like those people who are low performers were still
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: not able to recognize their own weaknesses well, and they.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Almost doubled down on it too, So they went from
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: like they already thought that they were pretty hot stuff.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Then they looked at everyone else's tests incidentally, some of
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: those tests where people did much better than they did,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: and then they're like, wow, I really am a genius
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: and thought they were even better after that, even though
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: these were the low like these are the bottom twenty
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: fifth percentile performance wise.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Right, And then the high performers did also increase their
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: personal estimations as well because they could better calibrate their
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: performance and became more accurate in their ability to gauge
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: their performance. So the higher performance were able to kind
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: of get closer to that that mark.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Right, So they would they sort of undersold themselves initially,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: but then as they got to actually compare their performance
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: to others, they had a better system by which they
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: could actually evaluate their own performance because they had the
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: appropriate level of competence needed to make that estimation, whereas
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: otherwise they tend to guess pretty conservatively. Now that they
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: have more information, they can make a good educated guess.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Low performers, on the other hand, are like straight out
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: of idiocracy. They're like, I am flying high because the
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: world is my oyster, and like, even though they're wrong
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: about basically everything, they're like, I'm gonna stick to my
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: guns because I can. And that was not a comment
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: on firearms, by the way. That was stick to my
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: guns as then holding the ground. But all right, yeah,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: finally an experiment for I honestly was not trying to
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: make upun there. I was legitimately concerned that people thought
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: I was making a political statement. Anyway. An experiment for
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: this was essentially another type of logic test. This time
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: they got up to one hundred and forty undergraduate students
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: and basically had the same results as before. So essentially
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: they replicated this three times. They got four different studies
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: showing about the same thing. With respect to those people
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: who when they had a high level of confidence, they
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: would vastly overestimate how well they actually were at performing,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Dunning said, quote, ignorant people do not recognize scratch that
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: cannot recognize just how incompetent they are. End quote, And
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: so he's sort of encapsulating the effects here. He also
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: had a few more quotes. I really liked that. I'm
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: actually not sure that these were all from the article.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: I found these in various places, and I just kind
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: of grabbed him as I saw them because they all
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: were so good. Another quote, and his name was doctor
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: David Dunning. Again, just to make sure people are out there,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: he said. Quote. What's curious is that in many cases,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious. Instead,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, booed
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: by something that feels to them like knowledge. End quote.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: That's so I love I love how It's just it's
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: basically just saying, like stupid people. I shouldn't say stupid.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: They're not stupid because these could be smart people. They
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: just are so let me let me rephrase that. People
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: that that literally don't know about a particular bit of
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: information will like lean so heavily into something that they
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: feel like is knowledge, Like that they feel like they
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: know it. They lean so hard into it. They're not like, nah,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: maybe I don't know.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: I had an idea for a shirt for why we
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: do what we do that was looked like a multiple
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: choice test, and it was like they answered almost every
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: question and one of the options was it feels right,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: and I was like, incorrect, that's never a lot of
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: what this is right, Yeah, exactly is Yeah, you'll have
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: those people who like, well it makes logical or an
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: intuitive sense, or it feels rights to me, It has
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: that truthiness thing to it to have it be this way.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to lean into this full tilt and
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: really hold my ground. And although they didn't, the study
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: was not designed to show this one effect specifically. The
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: fact that I'm about to say is that what often
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: happens is that when someone declares a position on something,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: they will often find themselves compelled to defend that position
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: tooth and nail, even though they have no reason to
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: believe that that position is a legitimate one. And then
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: they will go through that confirmation by a cycle where
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: they look for every conceivable piece of information they can
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: to make them feel right about that position they arbitrarily
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: chose in the first place. It's just it's kind of incredible.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: It's not like and it's slipped up before. This is
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: not stupid people. They can be very incredibly smart people.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: And so he actually has a quote specific to that,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: did you want to take that?
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, you can do it if you want.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: He goes on to say, quote, an ignorant mind is
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: precisely not a spotless, empty vessel, but one that's filled
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: with the clutter of irrelevant or misleading life experiences, theories, facts, intuitions, strategies, algorithms, heuristics, metaphors,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: and hunches that regrettably have the look and feel of
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: useful and accurate knowledge. So essentially, what he's saying, there's
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: all this information that sounds good, it feels right, and
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: they're not people that are dumb. They're taking that information,
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: they're synthesizing that information that they have in turning it
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: into an argument or a position that's not quite accurate.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: And I mean that almost feels like politics in a
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: nutshell to me. Like this is this is where people
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: will get on major controversial topics. They will have a
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: lot of quote unquote information about that topic. And as
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: he said, it's not that they're stupid, and it's not
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: that their mind is empty, it's that it is filled
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: with the wrong stuff. And being filled with the wrong
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: stuff has the impression of being well informed, but it's
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: it's not well and it's informed in a way, but
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: it's not well informed. It's not meaningfully informed.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Accurately informed either, yes, exactly. Another thing that's part of
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: that is it becomes so well formed that it becomes
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: almost static. And that's part of the issue too, is
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's with new facts and new information, people
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: don't budge on their positions. So when they create these
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: ideas or or when they create this like body of knowledge,
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: it doesn't move. And that's that's part of the problem
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: with this too, is it's less about how people kind
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: of come into all this, but more about how when
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: they dig their heels in, they don't get out of it.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so one way to summarize this, and
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: I'm not actually pulling this from the source material. I
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: made this up. But one thing that the theme that
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: really occurred to me as I was looking through this
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: research is to summarize this by saying that people don't
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: know what they don't know. When you don't have a
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: frame of reference for this, then you don't know that
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: you don't have a frame of reference for this, and
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: there is potentially a world's worth of knowledge of things
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: that you don't even know that you don't know. Like
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: an example of this, I have frequently heard people talk
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: about the field of study that I went into, and
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: someone even specifically said to me, how is there a
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: whole degree that you can get on that? How is
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: there more than like a class worth or even like
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: a day of a class worth of subject for that material?
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: And it's because they're so oblivious to the things that
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: to which they've had so little exposure and apparently believe
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: that their experiences have encompassed the vast majority of the
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: human experience. That one gap that they don't even know
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: that that is something that they don't know that they're missing.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: And that's true for me as well. Like I don't
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: like I might look at it feels like there is
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: probably a whole field of people that just study like
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: paint texture. I'm just making that up. I don't etually
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: know if that's a thing, but like I would think, like,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: how much is they're really to know about that? That
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: seems like such a simple topic and be completely wrong.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: And again I don't know if that's actually a thing,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: but there are going to be fields like that where
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: it seems to me that seems like something you could
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: learn from a five minute YouTube video, and actually there
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: are people who will spend years researching and studying and
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: learning everything there is to know about that subject, and
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't even know that that was something I was
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: missing when I started studying.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: In my doctoral program, they basically said that you develop
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: this level of knowledge, that you get a very specific
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: understanding about a very specific topic to such a fine
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: point that you end up being the only person in
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: the world that really understands that topic to that depth.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're talking about seven people and you're the
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: person that knows about that particular topic. Like when you
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: do your dissertation, you are the expert on that topic
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: at that point in time, and even then you're not
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: even really the expert. Yeah, and there's still plenty to
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: learn about that particular pinpoint of study.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: So you thought you were listening to a podcast and
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: you were confident in that, But what you were not
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: confident is how many ads they were going to be. Surprise,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: here's a new one, and we're back.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: There is a little bit of hubris in here in
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: thinking that whoever it is, and it could be me
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: or you or anybody, where you sort of think, well,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: I've learned enough about the world that I know all
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: the things, at least generally the categories of the things
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: that there are to know, and so part of the
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: point of this is really just to illuminate, like be
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: open and willing to acknowledge the fact that there might
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: be things out there that you don't know that you're missing.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's perfectly appropriate. So that's
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: kind of the thing about all this. It's not just
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: those stupid people who fall victims of this, Like we're
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: all pretty good at a small handful of things, right,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Like we all have our own experience. I think Bill
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Nya says specifically, you can learn something new from every
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: person that you meet, Like I think that's one of
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: the best things I've ever heard, Like love that, And
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: it's really great because every person you meet is pretty
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: good at a small handful of things, and we are
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: good at calibrating ourselves with respect to those things, Like
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: we can kind of understand where we're at. But ultimately
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: what's going to happen is that we're not going to
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: be an expert in many other things, Like we're not
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: gonna I'm not Like, I play bass guitar, I've been
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: playing for almost twenty I've been playing for twenty years now.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: I'm not anywhere near being an expert, and I've been
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: playing for most of my life not as good as Flee,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: and I'm never going to be as good as Flea.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: That's absurd to think like that is a stretch goal.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: If you will love that, it's never going to contact that.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you like that.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: So every brilliant, incomprehensibly genius aeradite will lack some knowledge
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: about something and will fail to know what they don't
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: know about what ever subject they are not an expert in. Everybody,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: all of us have this. We cannot possibly know all
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: of the things.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a human thing. This is just And
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: the point of this again is to just be made
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: more aware of our biases that that are out there,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: so that at the very least we can acknowledge that
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: we maybe don't know as much as we think, and
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: maybe be slightly more hesitant about making and really you know,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: holding our ground on claims that we maybe are missing
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: information about and at least be open to new information
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: about that thing.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. I like that. I like the way that sounds.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: That's nice.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Thanks, all right, So let's go ahead and get into
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: how this works and why it works and that sort
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: of thing. I mean, we sort of already did elaborate
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: in this a bit, but I think we can really
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: elaborate on this in just a different way that might
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: make it easy to understand, or at least just approach
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: in a way that helps sort of cement it in place.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: And this is essentially as simple as a logic comparison task,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: or that's that's the way you can sort of frame it.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: And so let me let me say a little bit
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: more about that. Most animals with the ability to sense things,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: especially visually, can tell the difference between concrete comparisons, such as,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: this thing is bigger than this thing right right now.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: There's a smaller number of animals in the world that
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: can tell the difference between semantic and arbitrary comparisons, such as,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: this thing is more valuable than this thing.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's why we put fancy rocks and jewelry exactly.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: That's exactly it. That is why we hold these little
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: rocks and we will pay exorbitant amounts of money for them.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Is because we can look at that and someone said,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: this is worth a lot more than all the other rocks,
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: and we will go, okay, here is all my money,
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: and then and yeah, so that's anyway excessively political stance
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: on jewelry. The Dunning Kruger effect is the extent to
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: which we make comparisons to thing that we don't even
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: know exist, and we tend to underestimate how vast those
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: things are, or at least they might be. And so
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: ancient people likely believe that the moon was fairly small
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: and just maybe a few hundred or a few thousand
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: miles off the ground because they really lacked any context
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: or reason to believe that it was otherwise right, And
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: so this is just the ability to arbitrarily compare what
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: they knew to what they were seeing. They just didn't
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: have the information. Just for clarification, the moon is two
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: hundred and thirty thousand miles away. Yeah, shit varies, but
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: it's around that. So it's quite a bit more than
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: you might guess if it's like, wow, that moon must
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: be one hundred miles away a little bit more. Yeah,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: it's a few more.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: I mean. And just to kind of like further elaborate
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: on that too, like you're talking about like astral bodies
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: and all that, But I mean, how much is there
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: to know about rabbit poop? Like I literally don't know.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: I have no idea, but there's a whole study. I mean,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: there are people that treat copper phasia, like there are
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: people that there's just they're experts in poop, and they're
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: experts in specific types of poop.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's probably a lot more to know about this
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: than immediately seems to make sense.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely, it's just to kind of like press the
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: issue a little bit more, Like how much is there
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: to know about installing plumbing? I mean the entire professions
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: dedicated to this particular trade, right, And you know, there's
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: so much to know when you're looking at any sort
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: of plumbing, and there maybe we know a few tasks
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: like how to unclog a drain or how to you know,
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: maybe dial a phone so that somebody else can come
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: unclog the drain. I'm not very handy myself, Yeah, saying
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: there's just a lot of stuff that goes into something
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: as particular as a particular skill set or particular trade,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: and that within itself continually evolves, right, So to me,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: plumbers are just these really cool magicians.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Basically I've tried to take on some home
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: projects myself and thought that like, well, well, how much
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: how difficult can it be to install this sink or whatever?
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: And turns out it's enormously difficult and something that I
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: would rather never do again if possible, And so yeah,
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: it makes me wonder. I'm like, man, is someone whose
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: job it is to do this? How how do you
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: get so? Like this thing just seems basically impossible at
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: first glance to me. And again that's just me highlighting
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: how little I know about that field.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when I was in high school, I took an
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: electronics class and learned how to like rewire a wall.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: But then I had to like install an outlet somewhere
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: in my house not too long ago, and I was like,
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: I was so parent on its Like I had to
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: go get like a rubber handled screwdriver and turn off
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: all the fuses in the house just to install one thing.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: I was like, this is ridiculous, Like I literally don't
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: know enough to be safe. I'm gonna end up like
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: electricating myself.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: I think this is actually a important point there is
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: don't know enough to be safe. That's something we should
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: maybe come back to.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, for sure, so we don't know enough to
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: be safe, So don't just just be aware, just just
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: be just be aware of what you try to be
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: aware of what you don't know.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Just don't just don't, just don't ask ask for help. Yeah. So, yeah,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: the more things you learn, the more you're exposed to,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: the better you're able you will be to understand the
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: limits of your own knowledge and in your competence in something.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, So there's always a few interesting tidbits and considerations
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: that are fun to pepper into a discussion like this.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: So one thing is that the Dunning Kruger effect could
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: be described as a form of the over confidence effect.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: In fact, I actually had a difficult time telling exactly
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: how these things were different, except it does seem that
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: the Dunning Kruger effect identify the aspect of the correlation
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: that confidence is reciprocally related to competence, whereas the over
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: confidence effect really only seems to describe the tendency to
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: overestimate one's ability. And that was the example I gave
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: of ninety percent of people think they're better drivers than
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: fifty or ninety percent of other people. And it's true
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: of a lot of other things as well. And actually
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: that had me evaluate my own driving, and I decided
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: I must be perfectly average I think maybe I might
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: actually be a little bit less an average, And I'm
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: thinking about like stunt drivers and people who are professional
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: drivers are probably really really good at it. And I
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: am perfectly capable of navigating a car without getting in
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: an accident most of the time. But I would guess
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: that probably the best place to put myself is right
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: smacked down in the middle, if I really were to
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: think about it carefully. And I think that there is
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: This again wasn't explicitly stated in the Dunning Kruger effect,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: but this does seem to also be related to the
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: idea that you mentioned earlier of the imposter effect, which
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: is the idea that when you are become more and
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: more and more of an expert in something, sometimes you
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: find yourself feeling like you are kind of a fraud
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: or you don't really know that much about what you're doing.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: And this is a thing that happens with people who
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: are in who achieve a high degree of speciality in
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: a particular subject, they will actually feel a lack of
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: confidence and their competence in that subject because they know
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: how much they don't know.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: Absolutely that makes sense.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: So another thing in here is just this is a
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: way to think about the Stunning Kruger effect and maybe
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: think about yourself and just have some consideration around this.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: And the suggestion here is to think of something you're
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: an expert in, and how much the average person knows
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: about your area of expertise, and how little even that
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: they don't know about your primary subject. And then that
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: is you about everything you're not an expert in. Yeah, okay,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: so that's the thought experiment I'm proposing. And I got
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: this specifically from a book that I'm putting in the
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: show notes called The Skeptics Guide to the Universe book,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: where they give this as an example as a way
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: specifically to address the Dunning Cougar effect. If you think
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: about how little people know about the thing that you
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: are really good at, now apply that to yourself with
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: respect to everything you're not an expert in, which is
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: gonna be most things, right. I am not an expert
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: in the climate. I am not expert in the oceans.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: I am not an expert in animals. I am not
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: an expert in plants. I'm not an expert in like computers.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: I'm not expert in movies or literature or any of
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: those things. I'm an expert in my field and maybe
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: a little bit in board games and like, so those
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: things are are things that I am. I am very
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: very very narrow on and I feel really confident about
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: those things. But I am utterly average or less than
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: average or at least moderately incompetent about everything else in
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: the world about which there are experts.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: And to kind of further get into that, like like
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: you mentioned like being an expert in your field, Like
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: if I walk into a room full of people that
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: have no experience in my field, then technically I'm the
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: ex in my field that's currently present. But there are
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: things in my field that I have never contacted or
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: things that blow my mind. Like I'll pick up a
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: book of something that's in my field and I'm like,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: what the hell does this even mean?
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, yeah, I've seen those.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: So I think that's an important thing too, is like
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: you might be an expert to some degree, and then
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: there's some things that you like you can always kind
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: of know more about what you know.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean absolutely. Just one of the really quick
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: thing is that this idea of the Dunning Kruger effect
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: is also related to the notion of something called illusory superiority,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: which is a very similar sort of idea, the illusion
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: that you are better at something than you are, or
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: you're the best at something and you're not really the
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: best at something. That's just a general thing. But that's
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: all I had on this. Do you good to move
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: on to our ticcoms? Yeah?
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: I am good to move on. I think you really
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: nailed it.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Thanks. I think the very first take on point really
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: should be that there is a massive amount of information
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: that I don't know about this topic, and I mean
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: really digging into this. There have been an avalanche of
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: studies that have followed this that have explored the ins
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: and outs and the depths of this thing that continue
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: to be researched because there is so much to know
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: about this topic.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think another one is if you hear about
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: something new that you didn't have any idea existed at all,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: assume that there is probably a lot more to that
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: thing than you might think at first glance. So there's
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: it's probably like the tip of the iceberg phenomenon, right
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: like where like you kind of come into contact with
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: a little bit of it, but there's so much more
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: to understand about that within our own universe.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: Yeap. And this is where I get to go a
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: little bit. I'm on a soapbox here thing, and I
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: want to just make sure that there's a caveat. One
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: thing that occurred to me as we were talking about
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: this is I could certainly see people who have that
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: confirmation bias who actually use the discussion we have here
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: as evidence to support their confirmation bias about something for
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: which they are wrong. And so an important caveat here
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: is that just because you might not know what you
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: don't know, and you might not know everything about a
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: particular area, does not mean that all ideas that someone
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: proposed are equally valid and therefore should be given equal
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: weight and consideration or deserve an equal amount of attention
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: and resources to understand. Okay, And furthermore, there are people
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: who will gleefully disseminate completely incorrect information, knowing it's incorrect,
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: that makes it appear as though their argument is supported
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: even though they just made up that information. So like,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: here are some very basic things. Homeopathy is not medicine.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: The Earth is round, It was not created five to
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: seven thousand years ago. The Earth is not hollow. Humans
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: have landed on the moon, drinking boiling water is fatal.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Keelation can kill you if you don't need it. Vaccines
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: do not cause autism or other neurological diseases. There are
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: not human spirits floating around as ghosts. The good place
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: is or was at the time of wherever you hear
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: this an amazing TV show. There is no such thing
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: as Bigfoot or the Lockness Monster, and the pyramids in
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: the Easter Island were not built by aliens. These are
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: just things, and just because I say that, and I'm
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: not an expert in those things, does not mean that
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: the alternative hypothesis is actually a tenable, reasonable place to be.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: It often does not make any conceptual sense, and there
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: is often little or no evidence behind it. Okay, it's
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: just I want to make sure that we really do
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: point out that just because I say I might not
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: be an expert in homeopathy, therefore that is equally valid
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: as a consideration of medicine. Is knowing as much as
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: I do about it, which again isn't everything is enough
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: to know that there's nothing there.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: I like firey Abraham, Oh good, sorry you spit hot fire.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: It's good I did.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my microphone melted.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Also, I fully support everything you just said,
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: so I guess is yeah, I endorsed that. So if
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: we were, if we were politicians and running partners, I
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: would I would absolutely be like, yeah, well he said so.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Another thing too, to kind of take away from this
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: is like display a little bit of humility. Just displaying
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: humility to look like you're avoiding this effect does not
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: mean your opinion is justified. So again like going back
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: and saying like, well, I don't know, but maybe vaccines
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: cause all the autism, Like if you're kind of going
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: from that route of like I don't know at all,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: but this is kind of what it is. It doesn't
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: really give your opinion any sort of It doesn't hold
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: any water, Like, it doesn't. Just because you're being modest
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: about a situation or our particular subject doesn't mean that
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: your opinion is still valid about it. There still needs
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: to be some evidence and support for what you're saying.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Right, I mean, the point is that armed with the
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: information that you might be overestimating your ability or knowledge
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: about something, consider questioning how well you really know that thing,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: and try and find conflicting data and learned how and
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: where you might be wrong. Like that's essentially the scientific
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: process is to find where do things not work, where
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: do they break down, where is information incorrect, what are
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: considerations that haven't actually been included in the research so far,
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: and figure out how to better understand the world by
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: breaking down the assumptions that we have coming into it.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I guess one of the big take holmes
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: is if by the end of this episode you're fine
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: yourself questioning what you believe or what you know, that,
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: I think that we've done a pretty good job.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. As a general rule, I'd recommend that you assume
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: that anything you don't know about or you aren't an
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: expert in that there is something for you to learn
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: about that subject, and also keeping in mind that caveat
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: that like it should fit within the parameters of general
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: understanding about how the universe works. Agreed, all right, I
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: have a couple of really cool quote quotes to close
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: this out, if you don't mind, Yeah, let's do it. So.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: The first one is quote the greatest enemy of knowledge
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge. End quote.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: And I don't I don't know the source of them,
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: and I think the source is unknown. I'm not sure.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Another one would be the problem with the world
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: is that the intelligent people are full of doubt while
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: the stupid are full of confidence. And that's either by
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: Charles Pakowski or Bert try and Russell. It's hard to
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: find and pinned down which one said that.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: I saw both from various sources, and yeah, I don't know.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: It was interesting. And then the last one is quote
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. End quote.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: And that was by Charles Darwin. Thank you, Charles Darwin,
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: the well known Charles Darwin, you might say, famously studied
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: Charles Darwin. Yeah, I feel good about that.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Also, hopefully, so now I know I don't know what
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know, and now I'm afraid that what I
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: know is not enough.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Great, Well, hopefully I didn't leave you in any sort
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: of existential crisis. But go out and learn about the world,
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: you know. That's I mean, that'd be my command to
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: do myself and you and everyone else.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that. I like that. That's a
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: good charge.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: Let's once again disrupt this disseminating and hopefully smart thing
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: that we're doing to bring you something different than that. Ads,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: all right, we are back, all right. So that was
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: our discussion about the Dunny Krueger effect, where we sort
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: of covered the history of this, how it works, different
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: things to understand about it. We sort of unpacked the
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: original experience mint and all of that. So there has
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: continued to be a decent amount of research on this
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: topic in the sort of psychological sphere, and there have
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: been some people who have been, I think, pushing a
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: somewhat more skeptical view of how robust of an effect
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: this is. Now a lot of people have replicated this
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: in some version or another, so I think it's reasonable
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: to accept that there is something about this that's there
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: because it has been replicated so many times. But there
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: are also some people who have been pushing back a
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: little bit, saying, maybe it's not exactly what we think
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: it is. But let's start with one study that we
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: found that sort of unpacked a different aspect of the
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: Dunning Cougar effect.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, one potential reason that people are bad at
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: estimating their performance is that they don't get any feedback
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: or information about themselves. So in a twenty thirteen study,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: they asked one hundred and sixty five bridge players, which
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: you know, apparently people play bridge. Still the one hundred
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: and sixty five bridge players to estimate their performance in
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: several games and even received feedback on their performance. And
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: despite having explicit knowledge about their performance, the bottom one
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: third of people still overestimated their performance, and HIGs performing
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: people still underestimated their performance.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: So essentially, what they were suggesting was, even when you
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: know that you're not accurately estimating your own ability, you
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: will still incorrectly estimate your ability, right yeah, which was
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: a definitely a different take on this from assuming that, like,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: the reason that they don't know that they're as bad
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: at this as they are is because they don't get
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: any feedback on it. And like, no, even when they
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: get feedback, they still think they're better than they are
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: or worse than they are. For again, the lower performers
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: tend to think they're better, the higher performances tend to
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: think that they're worse or underestimate their performance, if you will.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: Right now, that does kind of lead to an updated
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: article that I found. I don't believe this was a
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: peer reviewed article. I believe this was just published online. Nevertheless,
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: they made it interesting points, and this was published in
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty three in Scientific American. And this expresses some
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: skepticism about the sort of strength and robustness of the
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: Dunning Kruger effect, as they had mentioned before. And really
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: one of the arguments is that the data collection methods
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: in the experiments, the original one and maybe subsequent ones,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: and the experimental arrangement will inevitably lead to the conclusion
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: that they got in the Dunning Kruger effect. But that's
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: just because that's how math sort of works. And here's
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: what I mean. One of the assumed premises that they
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: went into with this discussion that they had here and
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: I think has been well demonstrated elsewhere, is that most
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: people tend toward the average, and more importantly, most people
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: tend to rank themselves higher than their peers on everything.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: One of the most often cited studies on this showed
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: that ninety three percent of drivers in America think that
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: they are better than average. Three percent is almost all
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: of them. So I know we've joked about on her
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: like the fact I qualify this is always a joke,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: but like ninety three percent. Now, presumably that does include
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: some of the really good drivers and some really poor drivers,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: but ninety three percent of drivers in America think they
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: are better than average, which is mathematically impossible, right, Like,
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: most people will be around average and some people will
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: be on the extremes, but most people believe that they're
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: above average. But that's a really important initial starting point
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: for the conclusions that they reached in this article. Yeah.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, they created and fifty four fake students, so the
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: range of scores from low to high, then assigned random
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: numbers as confidence ratings, simply arranging the students on a
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: graph and then arranging the randomly assigned confident scores. The
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: bottom performance would have confidence scores higher than the average
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: by a similar range and as the original study, while
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: the top performers have confidence scores lower than the average
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: by a similar range. Is the original study. The fact
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: that the estimated scores were higher was just an artifact
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: of the math. That their scores were lower, so most
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: numbers would be higher, and the same is true for
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: the top performers. So remember all that's fake, but the
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: math just worked out as it was.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, So basically just if they took I actually think
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: they did sort of a linear progression of like we're
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: just going to make up those over a thousand fake students.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: We're just going to make up scores from them that
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: mostly go from the low end to the high end.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: And then we're going to plot them, so we group
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: the lowest quartile of performers than the mid low, mid high,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: and the highest quartile of performers, and then we're just
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: going to show where the confidence intervals fall. But again,
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: those confidence rankings were totally random, literally completely and totally random, right,
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: But it just so happens to be that most numbers
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: are lower than the or were higher than the lowest numbers,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: and most numbers are lower than the highest numbers. And
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: so that meant that even if you sort of spread
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: out the distribution of confidence scores, well, that would be
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: all over the place. It would look like the people
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: on the low end were overestimating themselves just because they
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: tended toward the middle, and the same thing is true
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: for the highest performance. It looked like they underestimated themselves
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: just because they tended toward the middle, right, And so
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: they were sort of saying, it's just it's just kind
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: of how math works that that would be the case
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: that maybe their own self evaluation isn't like that off
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: of where they really are.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: Right absolutely now, in a non experimental arrangement. A professor
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: gave a scientific literacy test to some students. Only sixteen
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: percent of the lowest performers overestimated their performance, while four
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: percent actually underestimated their performance. About eight percent of the
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: lower performers were pretty good at estimating how well they did.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: So that's I mean, it's not experimental, but it still
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: tells you a little bit about kind of like what
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: the actual like kind of what's happening in a real
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: world scenario.
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So, while like most of the people who
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: performed low actually did get pretty close on estimating how
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: they did, some were significantly over, some were significant, but
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: importantly some were significantly under. Like the lowest performers actually
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: thought they did worse than they really did. Also happened,
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: But most of them were kind of close to their
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: actual their actual performance. And essentially what they're arguing then
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: is like maybe they were they were actually fairly good.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: But again we have those law of averages here that
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: it tends to that they're just skew toward the middle. Essentially,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: the case I think that they're making is that maybe
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: the most robust interpretation of the evidence that we have
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: as far as it relates to the Dunning Kruger effect
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: is that most people think that they're better than average.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's sort of the conclusion we can draw from
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: this sure, Or maybe they're sort of close ish to
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: average but mostly better than average. Perhaps we're too confident
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: in the linear relation of unintelligent but confident to intelligent
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: but unconfident, or maybe we're under we were under confident
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: in how much we actually know.
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, look at that, our heads fully exploded because a,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: you know, it's funny thinking that, like the original idea
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: dunning Kruger effect may have overestimated the effect of the
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: dunning Kruger effect.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: That would be And then there's a there's a very
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: common graph that that people use when they're talking about
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: the Dunning Kruger effect that wasn't actually in the Dunning
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: Kruger effect. And what it is is there's like a
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: confident scale and a percent correct and that like peaks
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: really high where they're like really confident, but their percentage
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: is really low, and then it drops off as you
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: learn more and more, but you get less and less confident, right,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: and then it peaks back up again as you get
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: more com or as you learn more, and then you
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: become more confident, but you never get quite as high
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: as that, how confident you were to begin with when
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: you knew nothing, And they call that mount stupid on
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: the graph, Yes, but like we don't know where the
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: graph actually came from, Like it's not from the original
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: Dunning Krueger article. We can't find the original source. So
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: like even that is seems to be like kind of
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: ironic that people use that to represent the Dunning Kruger
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: effect with the like over confident that representation with us
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: not even from the actual study, Right, you're right, so wild,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: I love it. Anyway, we should probably wrap that up here.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening and for joining us here.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: We appreciate you all being around and joining us on
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: these trips down memory lane that we like to take.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: And so I'd just like to thank my group of
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: people who helped make this happen. Thank you to my team.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: Shane and myself do writing and fact checking. Our social
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: media coordinator is Emma Wilson, and the person who stitches
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: together all these old episodes that the new content is justin,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: our audio producer Extraordinaiy. We do have some things to recommend,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: which we do every episode but we did not do that.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: I believe at the time that we recorded the original
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: Dunning Krugar episode. So we'll do that now. But first,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: as I mentioned, if you like to support us over
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: on Patreon, you can get access to some behind the
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: scenes content, bonus content, AD free content, all that sort
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: of thing, and I will read your name as part
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: of the credits for helping make this little project of
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: ours continue to happen. So a big shout out and
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: thank you to Mike, m Megan, Mike t, Justin, Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia, Brian, Ashley, Kiara,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: and Michelle for your ongoing and continued support. You are
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: the bestest, so great we are.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: We just adore you.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: Thanks to everyone who is listening today. Thank you for
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: recording with me today. Shane, is there anything that you'd
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: like to add or anything that I forgot before we
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: get to some recommendations?
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Nope, I think we're I feel good.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: Recommendations because I don't remember how long the original episode
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: was and I don't want to make this go too long.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna be quick. I'm recommending a recent animated movie,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: this is Despicable Me for the fourth installment and the
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: Despicable Me franchise, and it is a Despicable Me movie.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: It is everything you want from a Despicable movie and
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: better than a Ninny Minion's movie. It's cute, it's funny,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: it's silly, it's ridiculous. It has the animation has gotten
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: very very good, so you're if you're in for a fun,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: silly child's sort of movie, just Despicable Bee for is
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: quite good. So if you're interested, good check it out.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: That sounds like a lot of fun. I've been wanting
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: to see it and I have not seen it yet.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: So I'm gonna recommend a blog, a food blog, and
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: it is called The Conscious Plant Kitchen. The reason I
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: am recommending this is because it is just a ton
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: of free recipes when you go on the website, like
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: right now, I'm looking at a recipe for pumpkin energy balls,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: but they have just a ton of recipes on the website.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: If you are looking to do a vegan diet or
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: certain types of diet like egg free, vegan, dairy free, vegetarian,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: gluten free, nut free, grain free, there's lots of different
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: kind of It's a lot of baking, so a lot
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: of pastries. There's flour, there's almond flower scones, there's pancakes,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: there's lental cookies. There's a lot of really cool stuff
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: on here. And if you just like baking, then I
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: think it's probably worth checking out. I'm going to look
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: at a couple different recipes on here, probably grab something
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: like these protein biscuits that look pretty good. But there's
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: vegan chocolate banana muffins. There's all kinds of stuff on
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: there if you like that sort of thing so well,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: and everything looks really really great on it.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome, all right, And this is Conscious Plant Kitchen
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: dot com. Yes, that's it, the Conscious Plant Kitchen dot Com. Okay,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: and then I recommended Despicable Me for the new Kids movie.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: All right, I think that that's all that I have. Then, Oh,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: if you'd like to tell us about anything that we
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: added or got wrong in our new addition here to
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: the Dunning Kugar Effect, you can reach out to us
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: directly info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or on the social
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: media platform as we look forward to your constructive criticism
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: and heaping praise. Yeah, but I think that's all that
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: I have. Then, Zybraham and it's a Shane We're out
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: see it.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: going to WWD WWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: and we hope you have an awesome day.