Latest / Spacious Success / 034 | Roads and Bridges with Georgie Dent: The Care Infrastructure Working Parents Were Never Given

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034 | Roads and Bridges with Georgie Dent: The Care Infrastructure Working Parents Were Never Given · Spacious Success

• 0:05
  Hi, I'm Dr. Christy Goodwin, a neuro performance scientist, speaker and executive coach who learned the hard way that chasing success can come at a cost.
• 0:16
  After burnout landed me in hospital, I made it my mission to help ambitious women who are done trading their health and happiness for high performance.
• 0:27
  On Spacious Success, I share science-backed strategies and real stories to help you flourish as a female at work and beyond so you can stop paying the success tax.
• 0:41
  All right.
• 0:43
  Well, this interview was supposed to happen a couple of weeks ago, mid school holidays, but it did not happen then because I had to reschedule at the last minute.
• 0:52
  And today's guest, Georgie, was very accommodating.
• 0:55
  You see, my son's football gala day was moved at the very last minute.
• 1:00
  Not a season game, not a finals game, but a one day gala scheduled towards the end or the tail end of the school holidays.
• 1:08
  And with it, that shift went my recording schedule, my care arrangements for my other two children.
• 1:15
  And I had protected this time for this conversation.
• 1:18
  And this change happened only a couple of days out.
• 1:21
  The school holiday scramble, Georgie often calls it.
• 1:25
  Well, I'll be honest, it got even messier and harder to patch than what it already usually is.
• 1:31
  But luckily, Georgie and her team were able to accommodate a new change and were flexible.
• 1:36
  I'm going to talk about that today.
• 1:38
  I'd really like to be honest about how small that may sound, but how much that simple change in calendar actually
• 1:46
  And Georgie is nodding frantically for those of you who are just listening here, because the thing about the care gap is that it almost never really arrives as a crisis.
• 1:56
  It actually arrives as a calendar change, a last minute adjustment, a sick child.
• 2:02
  And then it's usually a woman who's a child.
• 2:04
  by default, who absorbs this caring role and the mental load that accompanies it.
• 2:09
  So here is the arithmetic that no one ever calculates or puts on a slide.
• 2:14
  We get 12 weeks of school holidays for most school aged children, sometimes more if they go to independent schools.
• 2:20
  We get four weeks of annual leave as parents and caregivers, if you are lucky, which leaves an eight week gap of the year to cover per child.
• 2:30
  For years, I've talked about this as a biology problem, and it is.
• 2:34
  When you're the person who absorbs every single schedule change, your stress cycle never completes.
• 2:40
  Your nervous system almost never gets the signal that the threat has paused.
• 2:44
  And this is your human operating system, what I call your HOS, running an impossible load.
• 2:50
  But biology, I want to point out, is only half of this conversation.
• 2:54
  The other half is infrastructure, its structure, and the systems that facilitate this.
• 3:00
  And this is where my guest today has spent the last six years.
• 3:03
  I'm delighted to be interviewing Georgie Dent today.
• 3:05
  Georgie is the CEO of The Parenthood, Australia's leading parent advocacy organisation, who represents more than 80,000 parents, carers, and supporters.
• 3:16
  She's the best-selling author, a former lawyer, a prominent advocate for children, families, gender equity, and mental health.
• 3:24
  And she has the receipts to prove it.
• 3:27
  In her last 12 months, Georgie and her organisation have helped to secure the expansion of Australia's paid parental leave scheme so that from the 1st of July, 2026, families can have access to 26 weeks of paid leave, including superannuation.
• 3:45
  How good is that?
• 3:46
  With more of it reserved for fathers and partners.
• 3:49
  They've also helped to secure an extension of the retention payment that protects the 15% wage increase for early childhood educators.
• 3:57
  And they are still pushing for a full year, 52 weeks of paid parental leave at a replacement wage shared between parents.
• 4:07
  Okay.
• 4:08
  She's also a mum of three, which is a qualification that really matters in this conversation.
• 4:13
  She lives in Sydney with her husband.
• 4:15
  And in her words, she parents co-partners in chaos.
• 4:19
  What a good description.
• 4:21
  One more thing before I bring her in.
• 4:22
  This show is for women, but my guest works on this area as a parenting issue, a dual issue, a systemic issue, not as a women's issue.
• 4:31
  She's a woman.
• 4:32
  Now, that's not a disagreement between Georgie and I, but it's the whole point and it's where I want to start.
• 4:38
  Welcome to the show, Georgie.
• 4:40
  Thank you so much for having me.
• 4:41
  Pleasure.
• 4:42
  And thank you for the work that you do.
• 4:43
  I know I'm not alone in passing on my sincere gratitude and support for the advocacy, the championing, the tireless work that you and the team at The Parenthood do.
• 4:55
  We're very grateful, even though that may not be articulated all the time to you directly.
• 4:58
  Thank you.
• 4:59
  Thank you.
• 5:00
  That is very kind.
• 5:01
  Can you tell us what inspired you to go down this path?
• 5:04
  How did the parenthood come about?
• 5:06
  What was the genesis?
• 5:08
  So the parenthood was actually started in 2013 and I was not involved at that stage.
• 5:15
  So it was set up because a group of individuals and organisations really recognised that
• 5:22
  Enabling parents to have a collective voice to advocate on the public policy issues that really impact their life would be important.
• 5:31
  Parents are such critical stakeholders when it comes to so many issues.
• 5:37
  And yet we know parents are so time poor.
• 5:40
  Very few parents have got the capacity to organise, mobilise in their spare time.
• 5:45
  So the parenthood was established really to give a voice to parents.
• 5:50
  I started my career as a lawyer and I had a very short career in a professional law firm.
• 5:58
  I had some health issues that meant I had some time off after law.
• 6:03
  And then when I returned to the professional workforce, I,
• 6:07
  I worked at a business magazine, BRW, and I was a junior reporter there and I was fascinated by the gender gap between men and women.
• 6:16
  And I sort of went on a little bit of a path where I was like, I don't understand.
• 6:20
  Australia educates women and girls so well.
• 6:22
  Why are there these gaps?
• 6:24
  And then my husband and I moved to the UK and we had our first baby over there and it just was so illuminating.
• 6:31
  Yeah.
• 6:32
  the extent to which men and women's paths are very different after becoming parents, not necessarily because of the choices of those individuals but because of the systems and structures around them.
• 6:43
  And so I really, as a journalist, when I returned to work, I was even more fixated on these issues around paid parental leave and access to early education and family-friendly workplaces.
• 6:56
  And so I really just worked writing, talking, reporting, blogging,
• 7:01
  tweeting about these issues.
• 7:03
  And it was that work that sort of led to me being connected with the parenthood.
• 7:07
  I was on the board of the organization for a year before I became CEO.
• 7:11
  So even though it wasn't a clear or linear path, it makes a lot of sense to me that I've landed where I am.
• 7:17
  I love that.
• 7:18
  The serendipitous trail of breadcrumbs that led you to an ultimate, what I'm assuming is a penultimate role for you for this stage.
• 7:25
  Yeah.
• 7:26
  Yeah, I mean, I think what I was struck by as a very new and young mum was
• 7:34
  I really recognised probably for the first time in my life that there are certain things that as an individual you cannot overcome alone.
• 7:43
  And I was so conscious that my husband and I could not magic up an early education and care service that was near where we lived, that was affordable, that met our needs.
• 7:55
  And we were both, we were quite young, we were quite junior, we
• 7:58
  absolutely had no capacity to consider something like a nanny.
• 8:02
  And neither of our parents live in Sydney, which is where we were living.
• 8:06
  We genuinely, it wasn't an option for one of us to stop working because we were both quite junior.
• 8:12
  And so we genuinely really needed early childhood education and care for our firstborn.
• 8:19
  And it was so expensive and hard.
• 8:22
  And it was a real lightbulb moment for me that if it's this hard for us and we've got a lot of privilege, how do other people make this work?
• 8:30
  And just that sort of it was one of those lightbulb moments.
• 8:32
  And I think I have come to recognise I am a really stubborn person personally.
• 8:36
  in certain regards.
• 8:38
  And I just, once I sort of saw this inequity and these structural failings, I just haven't been able to let go of it and I can't see that I will until we do have some really meaningful structural responses that give parents an opportunity to sustainably combine their caring responsibilities with their need to provide for their family.
• 9:04
  Absolutely.
• 9:04
  I love your relentless determination.
• 9:08
  It is a blessing and a curse.
• 9:10
  I would imagine it is.
• 9:12
  I could imagine.
• 9:12
  But thank you for choosing to pursue the challenges and constraints that you saw and to use your expertise.
• 9:19
  I mean, this is probably where your law background and, again, that serendipitous path that has led you to where you are to do the work.
• 9:25
  And I think the key thing that you've pointed out here is that parents are yearning for change.
• 9:31
  We're recognising that this is not working.
• 9:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:35
  But we're often, as you said, time poor, at a loss, you know, attendance rates at P&F meetings, volunteer roles within sporting organisations I know are dropping because parents are feeling like they're being asked to run a race with their shoelaces tied together.
• 9:50
  And so I am in deep gratitude for what you do and really do hope that the listeners experience all of the wonderful things that you and the team at The Parenthood are doing.
• 10:00
  So you mentioned there's something I wanted to start talking
• 10:03
  a question with.
• 10:04
  Something happened online a few months ago because I think it explains this entire conversation and the work that the parenthood does.
• 10:12
  The ABC Lifestyle put up a post, I think it was on Instagram, about working mothers.
• 10:18
  And the striking thing is they got the analysis right.
• 10:21
  So they had six slides on Instagram and it said something like this.
• 10:25
  And if you're watching the video, we'll put the captions up so that you can see the carousel.
• 10:29
  School finishes at half past three.
• 10:31
  Work finishes at half past five.
• 10:34
  Twelve weeks of holidays against four weeks of leave.
• 10:37
  Two-parent households where both parents work up from just over half in 1990 to nearly three-quarters now.
• 10:45
  Mothers of children under 15 doing almost two and a half hours more unpaid work every day than fathers.
• 10:54
  They laid out the structural problem that so many of us have tangible lived experience of in great detail with numbers and statistics.
• 11:02
  But then on the last slide, they asked mothers for their help to solve the problem.
• 11:08
  What are your secrets?
• 11:09
  How do you get it all done?
• 11:10
  And that's when the internet turned on ABC Lifestyle.
• 11:14
  It did not go well.
• 11:15
  Tell me what happened.
• 11:16
  Tell me why this is a structural problem rather than something that women are supposed to absorb and solve.
• 11:23
  Well, so I think what was so striking here was that they had really captured the structural challenges that parents are facing.
• 11:34
  And then by sort of asking mums specifically for their hacks, it sort of creates this impression that this is solvable and that individual mums in particular should be the ones with the innovative, creative solutions to solve this.
• 11:52
  And
• 11:53
  I think it is just wildly dismissive.
• 12:00
  I think a post like this, people respond to it not just because it's sort of you look at it and you think, well, hang on, this is crazy.
• 12:08
  But I think it's visceral because, you know, I don't know very many parents who aren't feeling like what is expected of them is incredibly difficult.
• 12:19
  And we have to be realistic.
• 12:22
  You know, one of the things that we say at the Parenthood to parents all the time is,
• 12:27
  It's not feeling hard because you're making the wrong choices.
• 12:31
  It is really hard because we have not invested in the infrastructure that you need in order to be able to combine work and care.
• 12:40
  And for the vast majority of households, combining work and care
• 12:45
  isn't a sort of trivial lifestyle question.
• 12:48
  It's actually how do we raise our children and provide for them?
• 12:53
  And you can look at the numbers.
• 12:55
  You know, there are so many numbers that point to the financial stress that households are carrying now.
• 13:01
  It is unfamiliar.
• 13:03
  We are in uncharted territory in terms of it did used to be more viable and affordable for children
• 13:13
  a parent to provide for a family with one parent out of the workforce or one parent working part-time and still achieve a sort of comfortable standard of living, that is just no longer the case.
• 13:24
  And so you've got parents who are not thinking about these issues like the...
• 13:29
  structural difference between work hours and school hours and this enormous gap between school holidays and annual leave they're not thinking about that in a sort of thoughtful contemplative way it actually dictates the the sort of quality of their daily lives and so when you then belittle that experience into hey mum what are your hacks yeah
• 13:53
  I think that's why it spread the way that it did, even though they actually had answered the question themselves in those initial posts because it was right there in black and white.
• 14:05
  These are the numbers that show what we are expecting of working parents, but particularly working mothers, is that we're going to be able to do that.
• 14:13
  is insane.
• 14:14
  And let's not pretend there is a woman out there who can creatively overcome this gap in a way that is easy.
• 14:23
  People do it, but at what cost?
• 14:26
  And it is not easy.
• 14:27
  Yes.
• 14:27
  And the cost I call it is the success tax.
• 14:30
  I see a lot of, and that was the whole genesis for this entire podcast is that I
• 14:35
  behind closed doors when I was coaching really accomplished, amazing, incredible women who on the surface looked like they were killing it, crushing all their goals, but behind closed doors were crumbling and cracking and asking themselves, where am I going wrong?
• 14:48
  What am I doing wrong?
• 14:50
  Like I must need a better planner, a better system, a productivity pack.
• 14:55
  Like there must be a personal failing on my behalf that is explaining why I'm so overwhelmed.
• 15:00
  And I think the virality of the responses to that post, I mean, the comments were, I loved some of them when it said, how are you coping?
• 15:08
  And a lot of them were simply, I'm not.
• 15:10
  I'm not.
• 15:11
  And I just, I read through all of those comments and I became quite emotional because I see so many women sacrificing their health, well-being and or relationships in their pursuit of success because we're trying, I think, to often parent like it's 1956.
• 15:27
  And let's be honest, I don't even think we parent like we used to.
• 15:30
  My mum often makes comments about how parenting has become intensified.
• 15:34
  Yeah.
• 15:35
  Take book week and the staging and the amplification of the requirements of book week and then magnify that over a whole lot of other parenting issues.
• 15:47
  And for listeners, Maggie Dent, another Dent guest.
• 15:51
  We're not related.
• 15:52
  I would love it if we were, but we're not related.
• 15:54
  Wouldn't that be lovely?
• 15:55
  Wouldn't that be great?
• 15:56
  But Maggie Dent and I recorded an episode all about the intensification of parenting.
• 16:00
  So I think that is happening at the same time, as you say, you know, a greater proportion of women and women who are often working more than part time, often full time hours in systems and structures that were never, I often say these systems and structures were never built for our biology as females, nor our brilliance.
• 16:18
  And so I think, yeah, I'm actually pleased that that post came out because it was a catalyst for conversation.
• 16:24
  And thankfully, I'm sure you did respond, didn't you?
• 16:27
  And talked about this is a structural problem.
• 16:30
  This is not a personal mum issue that requires a band-aid to solve it.
• 16:36
  Yeah.
• 16:36
  And look, you are absolutely right in that what parents are doing now is completely unrecognisable in the past.
• 16:44
  And if you look at some of the sort of more detailed time use studies, there's particularly big ones out of America.
• 16:51
  And it shows that parents.
• 16:53
  the time that a full-time working mum in America spends with her children directly on parenting is greater than what a stay-at-home parent did in the 1960s, 1970s.
• 17:07
  And so we have had these, the need for, you know, financial means and obviously there is...
• 17:16
  The economic security of women is something that I am really passionate about.
• 17:21
  You know, without economic security, you have no security.
• 17:25
  And when we deny women in particular the ability to participate in the paid workforce, we are denying them independence, safety, agency.
• 17:35
  And so I think it's really important that we...
• 17:41
  sort of highlight that supporting women to be in the workforce and supporting women in paid employment is actually critically important.
• 17:50
  And the answer is not, let's take women out of the workforce and relieve some of this pressure on households.
• 17:57
  The answer is, how do we actually build the infrastructure that parents need in order to be able to sustainably work and care?
• 18:06
  Yes.
• 18:06
  And I just applaud the fact that you highlight this as a structural and a problem to solve and that this is an issue facing parents.
• 18:14
  It's not a mother's issue to deal with on our own.
• 18:17
  And you talk about parental stress.
• 18:20
  The U.S.
• 18:21
  Surgeon General, I know a couple of years ago, released a great report talking about the intensification of parental burnout.
• 18:28
  So this is an issue.
• 18:30
  Women are perhaps articulating it, talking about it more directly because they are often the first port of call, feeling it in a perhaps more intense way, which leads me on to another question.
• 18:40
  I want to be quite direct here.
• 18:41
  Spacious Success, the podcast, is primarily for women.
• 18:45
  My listeners are ambitious, accomplished women, and I'm unapologetic about that.
• 18:49
  Your organisation, the Parent Who Deliberately, doesn't do that.
• 18:53
  You advocate for parents and carers.
• 18:55
  And I've heard you talk about dadvocates.
• 18:58
  I love that phrase.
• 19:00
  Why do we need to invite men into this conversation?
• 19:04
  I don't want to make the same mistake that the ABC made and imply that this is a female's issue.
• 19:09
  How can we make this conversation?
• 19:11
  I would love for females to share this episode with their male partners, their colleagues, their leaders.
• 19:16
  Why are men so critical in this conversation?
• 19:21
  Yeah, so look, I think one of the things that I like to talk about is sort of idealism and pragmatism.
• 19:28
  And in an ideal world, the policies that we campaign for at the parenthood, so access to early education and care that is high quality, that is affordable, that is available, decent, adequate paid parental leave and family friendly workplaces are,
• 19:44
  All of those in an ideal world would be issues that impact parents in the same way.
• 19:51
  In the real world that we live in, the impact is very different depending on whether you are a mum or a dad and parents
• 20:00
  We believe at The Parenthood part of our mission is for parenting and caregiving to be recognised as something that parents and caregivers do.
• 20:11
  It's not a mum thing or a dad thing.
• 20:15
  And there's a lot of chicken and the egg thing here.
• 20:17
  So we campaign for 12 months of paid parental leave at a replacement wage rate that can be shared between parents.
• 20:25
  We know that there needs to be a portion of paid parental leave in two-parent households that is reserved for dads or partners
• 20:36
  on a use it or lose it basis.
• 20:38
  Now, the reason that that part of the design is so important is because when parental leave is not designed in a way that enables and encourages the leave to be shared, we know the default is that mums take it.
• 20:55
  Yes.
• 20:56
  And
• 20:57
  What happens in the first year of a baby's life, the caregiving patterns that are established then actually persist over a lifetime.
• 21:07
  So when you engage dads as shared carers, as main characters, not cameos in families, when you set that up from the outset, you are giving families a much better opportunity to genuinely, equitably share the care.
• 21:25
  Yeah.
• 21:25
  And when we talk about sharing the care, anyone who's had any time off on parental leave or home with babies and toddlers, you will know that the role, it's not just the care itself.
• 21:38
  It's not just the changing the nappies, the settling the baby, putting someone to sleep, feeding them.
• 21:43
  It's actually all of the other stuff that sits around that.
• 21:47
  Do we have nappies in the house?
• 21:48
  Do we have whites?
• 21:49
  Do we have onesies that fit?
• 21:50
  Do we have the right layers for this particular temperature?
• 21:54
  Is there any food in the house?
• 21:56
  Is there laundry detergent?
• 21:58
  What play equipment do we need?
• 21:59
  Do we have books?
• 22:01
  All of that stuff.
• 22:03
  is central to actually parenting and caregiving.
• 22:07
  And when you don't give both parents an opportunity to experience that, you set up a default where the parent who is at home absorbs all of that and then the proportion of care is quite uneven.
• 22:23
  And that's what we have seen for a long time in Australia.
• 22:26
  And it's not an accident.
• 22:28
  We've had policy settings that do...
• 22:31
  have really cast dads more in that cameo role than as main characters in families.
• 22:38
  And so for us at The Parenthood, speaking really directly to parents about parents is really important.
• 22:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:47
  But that's not to say we don't recognise that at the moment these issues do impact men and women in different ways.
• 22:54
  And actually they do sell mums and dads and babies short because when you do have policies that encourage women,
• 23:04
  Shared care.
• 23:05
  And when you have engaged positive relationships for a baby with two parents, child development outcomes improve.
• 23:13
  The mental and physical health of both men and women improves when there's shared care.
• 23:18
  Relationship breakdowns reduce.
• 23:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:21
  And none of this is rocket science.
• 23:23
  Again, anyone who has been through the radical transformation of becoming a parent, and I do, one of the hills I will die on, is that becoming a parent for the first time is life's most radical transformation.
• 23:37
  Like we pretend that it is something that just happens and it does happen.
• 23:42
  But it is an enormous transformation physically, biologically, logistically, financially.
• 23:48
  And when we don't fully recognise that and we instead pretend that mum, you know, dad might have a week off when a baby's born and then mum is home alone with a tiny baby recovering from childbirth, trying to adjust to this new role, yeah.
• 24:06
  Of course it ends badly.
• 24:08
  Like, of course it is difficult.
• 24:09
  Of course mums feel isolated and alone.
• 24:12
  And then dads feel disconnected.
• 24:15
  The flip side to that is when we have policies that say having a baby is both incredibly ordinary and...
• 24:25
  And super valuable.
• 24:26
  And we need to fund that like it matters because it does.
• 24:31
  It's incredibly ordinary, but it's also extraordinary as well.
• 24:35
  Simultaneously, it's that duality.
• 24:37
  I love so many things that you just said there.
• 24:40
  So the first one is I love your reframe that we need dads as parenting protagonists, have that main character role, not to be the support cast.
• 24:51
  Yeah.
• 24:52
  I love something that you just mentioned very briefly, but I think it's important.
• 24:56
  You said that if we have mums as the default caregiver in those early years, that it sets them up for a lifetime of care.
• 25:04
  Now, we know that there's a neurobiological issue.
• 25:07
  underpinning to that.
• 25:08
  We know estrogen makes us feel connected.
• 25:12
  It's the hormone of caring, accommodation and servitude.
• 25:16
  But we also know that now one in three Australians have grandparents as support, as providing care in these early years.
• 25:25
  But interestingly, the research is telling us that is usually fulfilled by the grandmother.
• 25:30
  And so you're exactly right that these caregiving roles, their genesis begins in those early years.
• 25:36
  The thing I want to, the thread I really would like to pull on now, though, is what you so beautifully articulated just then in that response.
• 25:43
  And that is often what we do is invisible.
• 25:48
  Invisible but invasive, I often say.
• 25:51
  And so there's definitely the caregiving itself.
• 25:54
  And then, as you said, there's the organising of the caregiving, the mental load, as we often refer to it.
• 25:59
  Yeah.
• 26:01
  The researching of the holiday program, who has spaces, where are the forms, has the booking window cut off.
• 26:08
  I know I'm in a year two WhatsApp group for my son and there are a flurry of messages when vacation care spots are open and then a flurry of panic messages about 10 minutes later when they realise they missed the window.
• 26:20
  Yeah.
• 26:21
  And that's at seven in the morning before they've been caffeinated.
• 26:24
  The working out who does what and which day.
• 26:28
  And in my experience, that second job, as we said, is often invisible, even inside households where we think we're sharing things fairly.
• 26:36
  Is that what you see as well?
• 26:37
  And why does that particular load often get stuck?
• 26:40
  It's like Velcro to one person.
• 26:42
  Yeah.
• 26:45
  Look, there's a lot in that.
• 26:48
  And I do think, so we have actually at the parenthood this year, we have hired our very first dadvocate.
• 26:56
  So Seb Costello, he is running our paid parental leave campaign.
• 27:02
  And Seb spent, he spent two years as a full-time stay-at-home parent when their children were young.
• 27:11
  So he's got two kids, Lenny and Mabel.
• 27:14
  And one of the things that he said to me before he had children, he had owned restaurants and bars.
• 27:20
  And he said in the restaurant particularly, he said, you've got this constant sort of divide that the front of house staff think that their role is the hardest and the back of the kitchen staff think their role is the hardest.
• 27:34
  And he said one of the things that he used to do was get staff to rotate occasionally so that they would get a shift where they see it from the other side.
• 27:42
  And he said to me, it's exactly like that with parenting.
• 27:47
  If you don't rotate and have a go and see what is entailed in each role, it's really easy to not see what it actually entails.
• 27:58
  And I think that we've got this sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that we have and
• 28:06
  and I think it is important to sort of recognise this, in global terms, Australia is very wedded still to men as breadwinners, women as caregivers.
• 28:18
  Even though that actually doesn't reflect the economic reality of households, it doesn't necessarily reflect the genuine choices that couples would like to make, our policy settings still mean that is...
• 28:32
  sort of the prevailing sentiment, even when it's not the reality.
• 28:36
  And so everything is set up in a way that promotes in insidious ways that mums are caregivers and dads are breadwinners.
• 28:46
  And I think that means...
• 28:51
  There is and there is a role here for like, what do we do as individuals?
• 28:55
  No individual exists in a vacuum.
• 28:57
  We are products of the context we live in and the environments that we've grown up in.
• 29:01
  And so it's not surprising that for a lot of women, we do absorb.
• 29:08
  a different meaning about what meals look like, what a good parent looks like, what's a good mum.
• 29:14
  And it is different to what, you know, the messages that dads have.
• 29:18
  We know a lot of dads have the message that the best thing they can do is earn a living and provide for the family in that way.
• 29:25
  And so we just...
• 29:28
  All of these factors contribute to why we have in households, people take on different roles and assume different meaning.
• 29:38
  Now, I know my husband and I are not alone in this.
• 29:42
  There are times when I will give him a bit of a download about a few of the things that are on my mind, things that I'm worried about.
• 29:49
  And it will be things like...
• 29:51
  I don't know if the kids' lunch boxes are nutritious enough.
• 29:54
  I don't know whether we're engaged enough on X, Y, Z. I don't know this, this, this.
• 29:58
  And he will say to me, I am exhausted.
• 30:01
  I was about to say, is this happening at 10 o'clock in bed usually?
• 30:04
  He's going to sleep and you're doing the mental checklist.
• 30:08
  Yeah.
• 30:08
  And this is not to say that it's not that I am exhausted.
• 30:15
  putting it like there's sort of two things that I want to say here.
• 30:19
  There is space for individuals to calibrate.
• 30:24
  Yes.
• 30:24
  And I know this, that one of the things that I can do when I remember it is to lower the bar because, yes,
• 30:35
  There are certain things that I'm really good at and there are other things that I'm less good at.
• 30:39
  And what my children's lunchboxes look like on any given day is not actually an accurate reflection of me as a parent.
• 30:48
  And yet I think for women there are so many little pitfalls that are so easy to fall into where you do compare yourself to all of these other standards.
• 30:56
  And...
• 30:58
  One of the practical things that I would say, and my husband and I have done this, and I do think it's helpful, the fair play system, the sort of card games,
• 31:09
  You know, it's again, what I would say is that is, in a sense, infrastructure.
• 31:14
  It's creating a mechanism by which you can sit down, contemplate all of the things that are happening in your family, prioritize which of those really matters and then take full responsibility for some of it.
• 31:28
  Because I think.
• 31:30
  The grey zone where you're both sort of on things is where things fall through the cracks and then you're both stressed in a minor way.
• 31:38
  So things like school forms, we as much as possible, that is something that my husband does.
• 31:43
  So we're not both sort of seeing the emails and the WhatsApp messages and both thinking have we done that.
• 31:49
  That's sort of one of the things in his column.
• 31:51
  With the kids' sport, we tend to divide it up.
• 31:54
  Like there are sports that he runs with and I run with others so that they
• 31:58
  Again, it's not perfect, but I do think it's really worthwhile recognizing to ourselves and to others.
• 32:08
  that there isn't necessarily a blueprint for the lives that we are trying to create.
• 32:12
  We are doing things differently.
• 32:15
  Yeah.
• 32:16
  And we haven't got, you know, generations of inbuilt patterns and habits that show us what that looks like.
• 32:24
  We are doing it differently.
• 32:26
  Yeah.
• 32:26
  And so being intentional about that I think is one of the things about the fair play cards that is so good because it is one of those things you're sitting down and you're saying, okay, okay,
• 32:36
  What is required here?
• 32:37
  Who's doing what?
• 32:39
  And how do we manage that in a way that is actually sustainable?
• 32:43
  Yes.
• 32:44
  Oh, so many good points there.
• 32:46
  I want to share a quick story that happened that reiterates this because I think you said we've got these entrenched groups.
• 32:51
  gender norms still pervasive.
• 32:54
  And about a month ago, I was doing a segment for the Today Show, so I had to turn my phone off so it didn't ring.
• 33:02
  I turned it back on.
• 33:02
  It was about 9.30 in the morning and in came a flurry of text messages or voicemails they were from my youngest son's school.
• 33:10
  And I thought, my goodness, he's had an accident.
• 33:12
  He's already in sickbay.
• 33:14
  I opened my voicemail and listened to it.
• 33:16
  It was the school who rang me on multiple occasions and left multiple
• 33:21
  This happens often if he's sick and in sickbay and I'm delivering a keynote.
• 33:25
  Instead of calling my husband who is on the form, who is in the database, there are repeated calls to myself.
• 33:32
  And in one instance, instead of even calling my husband, they called the third person down on the rung, which was my mum.
• 33:39
  And thankfully, she's available and can help.
• 33:41
  But I just think we've still got these very subtle but pervasive gender norms that are shifting how things get done.
• 33:50
  can I also just double click on something that you said that I see so many ambitious women we do we set impossible standards for ourselves like I love that you said just lower the bar like I think social media has as we've said created this compare and despair phenomenon and we look at the fancy lunch boxes we look at the book week costumes the accolades that end of the year and we compare you know our
• 34:16
  shabby version of reality to someone's shiny, glossy, edited, curated reel.
• 34:21
  So I just, that was such a potent reminder, like lower the bar.
• 34:25
  And look, I want to be really honest with you that that is an ongoing pursuit for me.
• 34:30
  It is.
• 34:31
  It's not something that happens because it's so easy to fall into the trap.
• 34:35
  Isn't it?
• 34:37
  But also just one thing, I think I shared this last year on some form of social media, but last year when one of our daughters was starting at high school for their year seven camp, the dads actually go up for a night and participate in some activities.
• 34:52
  And, you know, there were all these forms for the dads to fill out in addition to the kids to fill out.
• 34:58
  And as I said, I don't do the school forms generally.
• 35:01
  So that was in my husband's column.
• 35:03
  And...
• 35:04
  he had sort of complained to me and he said, oh, my gosh, I filled out this one form three times.
• 35:09
  They were asking the dads for their dietary requirements or any medication.
• 35:12
  And so he had filled it out.
• 35:14
  Anyway, I had one of those things where I was on a call, the school called once and I was like, oh, and then they called again and I jumped off the call and I answered.
• 35:22
  And they were saying to me, oh, sorry, it was one of the teachers at the school camp, so I suddenly thought, oh, gosh, something's happened to my daughter because my husband wasn't up there yet.
• 35:32
  And they said, oh, look, we just wanted to let you know that your husband's forms, they haven't come through and what we've decided to do is we're actually going to let him fill out the forms when he gets here.
• 35:45
  And I said, okay, no.
• 35:48
  This doesn't require a phone call if that's the fix that you've got.
• 35:51
  Okay.
• 35:53
  I don't need to know this.
• 35:55
  If anyone does need to know this, it is my husband who has, you know, on an admin front, he actually has filled out the forms.
• 36:01
  But it's just that thing of...
• 36:05
  I was just like, why am I even remotely on the list for this particular instance?
• 36:09
  But it happens, but it is one of those things where you have to say, we're not crazy for assuming this super role in our heads because we actually get a lot of messaging, subtle and explicit about, well, actually, you know, we're coming to you because if, you know, really at the end of the day, it's the mum we need to talk to.
• 36:31
  It's like, well, actually, you don't.
• 36:33
  Yes.
• 36:34
  Not always.
• 36:35
  And I shared a post on Instagram last year at the end of the sporting season.
• 36:38
  I was added to 13 different WhatsApp groups.
• 36:41
  My kids play a lot of sports to organise the end of season coach, manager, gift for the person, organising the gift like it was ridiculous.
• 36:49
  Yes.
• 36:50
  What I observed was that every single one of those 13 groups was started by a female.
• 36:55
  Every single person who was making payments, who was signing the card, who
• 36:59
  who was chasing up payments, who was buying the gift, was that female.
• 37:04
  And so we often still, and I see this trickle into the workplace, women still fulfil this kingkeeping role, this role of nurturer.
• 37:14
  And it is, you know, they may seem like really insignificant things, but pile that, you know, 13 WhatsApp groups was a job in and of itself, managing those.
• 37:23
  Oh, yeah.
• 37:23
  And the thing is that double digital burden, the research is actually thankfully quantifying the lived experience that most people have.
• 37:30
  I often say women describe the emoji, which emoji describes you best.
• 37:35
  And for most women in a keynote, it's the emoji of the head exploding.
• 37:39
  And that digital load is most certainly amplifying.
• 37:45
  But it's because we are still that default kinkeeper, that default person who carries that domestic and caring load.
• 37:52
  Yeah.
• 37:53
  Yes.
• 37:54
  I want to talk now about, I'm going to shift gears a little bit.
• 37:57
  We often hear about family-friendly workplaces.
• 38:00
  And I know that's another thing on the parenthood's list of agenda items.
• 38:04
  And it's the one that has often been reduced to a phrase.
• 38:07
  I think nearly every organisation in the country will tell you that we offer flexible work arrangements.
• 38:13
  Most of them mean that you're allowed to start at half past eight and you might be able to attend your son or daughter's swimming carnival once a year.
• 38:19
  Yeah.
• 38:20
  Tell me what genuine, like what does real flexibility look like?
• 38:23
  What are the workplaces who are getting this right doing at a really pragmatic, pragmatic granular level as opposed to just superficial policy documents and vague statements that tout flexibility?
• 38:37
  So I think that there are so many big and little factors that establish the extent to which a workplace is genuinely accommodating of humans with caregiving responsibilities or not.
• 38:53
  And I think one of the challenges is that in large organisations, absolutely, you need a culture that values caregiving as a starting point.
• 39:03
  Yeah.
• 39:05
  even within a large organisation with an amazing culture, you've got small little teams and by and large, the extent to which your working life is sustainable with your family will come down to your individual manager, you know, a lot of the time.
• 39:20
  Now, one of the stories that I...
• 39:22
  tell quite often, which I think illustrates what genuine flexibility is that when I was on parental leave with our second daughter, so I was on, I had been working at BRW magazine.
• 39:33
  I'd given, had our second baby and she was about six months old when I got
• 39:39
  a DM on Twitter from Marina Goh, who was at the time the publisher of Women's Agenda, which was fairly new.
• 39:46
  She asked if we could have a coffee and I went and had a coffee with her with my tiny baby.
• 39:51
  And she said to me, look, we need an acting editor for Women's Agenda in a few months because Angela Priestley, who's the founding editor, is going on parental leave with her first baby.
• 40:01
  And she said, I would love for you to do this job, but I know you've got two small children.
• 40:05
  I know how expensive and hard childcare is.
• 40:09
  So I want to talk to you about how we could make this job work for you.
• 40:14
  And that meant where we landed was I did three short days in the office and I
• 40:20
  Ultimately, what it came down to was I was going to be judged on my output more than the hours that I was at the desk or in the office.
• 40:29
  And that is such a paradigm shift.
• 40:33
  Like that is I started that role.
• 40:35
  And I often say this, like at a point where for a lot of mums in particular, it's very difficult for your career to progress, let alone sort of advance.
• 40:47
  And I was able to really actually do quite well at work, even though I had two small children.
• 40:54
  I was in a very busy family season because I didn't have to spend any of my time worrying about what my boss or what the team thought, because it was just from the outset.
• 41:05
  It was, you've got children that is not incompatible with you being a productive contributing member of the team.
• 41:12
  Yeah.
• 41:13
  And I think a lot of the time it comes down to the mindset and it is the ability to prioritise the output.
• 41:23
  Like what do we actually need?
• 41:25
  And I accept there are limitations.
• 41:27
  Like it's not going to work for every job.
• 41:31
  It is going to look different.
• 41:32
  But I just refuse to believe that...
• 41:36
  a mindset that is genuinely accommodating is not possible in every field.
• 41:42
  Yeah.
• 41:42
  And that that is ultimately what will make the biggest difference.
• 41:45
  And I think we see that in things like, you know, the organisations that are running the trials around the four-day week.
• 41:51
  Yes.
• 41:52
  And not compressed pay, not a compressed week in four, but actually...
• 41:56
  you know, let's set this up and see how you go.
• 41:59
  And the productivity in those teams is lifting.
• 42:01
  And I think it comes down to the starting point.
• 42:05
  If the starting point is we've got talent, we've got the right people in this organisation, we know what we're doing as an organisation and we back our team to get it done.
• 42:15
  Yeah.
• 42:17
  And I think that, you know, at the parenthood, we've touched on this, like the different policy changes that we're interested in.
• 42:25
  So paid parental leave, early education and care and family friendly workplaces.
• 42:29
  It's not about those individual policies just for their sake.
• 42:33
  It's sort of about creating an ecosystem.
• 42:36
  Where what we're saying is, as I said before, having children, having a baby, it is both incredibly valuable and very ordinary.
• 42:45
  Yeah.
• 42:45
  It is not incompatible.
• 42:47
  It is possible for people to combine these two pursuits.
• 42:50
  Yes.
• 42:51
  But when that's your starting point, that this is possible, where you land is very different from if the mindset is the ideal worker is someone with no caring responsibilities.
• 43:02
  They are available and willing from, you know, 7am to 9pm every night and no exceptions.
• 43:09
  That's when you get wildly different experiences.
• 43:13
  just love for us to have an ecosystem where I describe these policies as like roads and bridges.
• 43:20
  We don't expect, and I know this is a bit different now because people do work from home, but you know, back in the day when the vast majority of people commuted into the city for work, for
• 43:32
  We didn't expect any individual banker to build their own road, build their own highway, set up a train system, set up a ferry network.
• 43:39
  That's infrastructure that we recognise.
• 43:41
  If we want people to be able to get to their place of work, we've got to invest in the infrastructure.
• 43:46
  Paid parental leave and early education and care are literally the roads and bridges that parents need in order to be able to move between home and work.
• 43:56
  But we haven't built it for them and that is why we have got people who,
• 44:00
  building their own little networks of transport to get them between these things.
• 44:04
  And it is hanging on by a thread because it's not sustainable to build your own highway.
• 44:11
  The bridges are collapsing.
• 44:14
  That is a brilliant analogy.
• 44:15
  I've never heard it explained like that before.
• 44:18
  And it beautifully encapsulates the challenges that parents are facing.
• 44:23
  I also really loved
• 44:25
  What you said, I often say to people, flexibility, I'm often asked for my definition of what workplace flexibility looks like.
• 44:30
  And I say outcomes, not ours.
• 44:33
  We really have to shift.
• 44:35
  And again, I know that tends to be more towards knowledge workers.
• 44:39
  It may not be for frontline workers who often have very concrete, tangible output.
• 44:43
  They often have less schedule flexibility and location flexibility.
• 44:49
  Yes.
• 44:50
  I think that's a far more effective conversation.
• 44:53
  I also deeply appreciate what you said about managers being the linchpin here because we need leaders and managers walking the talk.
• 45:02
  So share openly about even if it's not for caring responsibilities, did you finish early to go and visit your mum in her aged care facility?
• 45:11
  Did you?
• 45:12
  Yeah.
• 45:12
  come in later because you went for a surf because you'd had a challenging day the day before.
• 45:18
  And I think that is by far, our brains have mirror neurons, meaning we're biologically wired to imitate and copy.
• 45:25
  And so we're seeing our leaders
• 45:28
  taking a break genuinely rather than just touting the policy or suggesting that you have flexible options, actually doing that themselves, it has a direct contagion effect on their teams.
• 45:40
  Yeah.
• 45:41
  So I'm going to pick up on an earlier thread where you said you got sick early on in your career.
• 45:46
  Were you around 24?
• 45:47
  And there was a moment, Georgie has a great book called Breaking Badly.
• 45:52
  Brilliant title.
• 45:55
  And there's a section in that book that has really stuck with me.
• 45:58
  I often think about it.
• 46:00
  You had months of vertigo and nausea.
• 46:02
  You left your job as a lawyer and you were living back at your parents' place, mostly stuck to the couch.
• 46:09
  You waited months to see a specialist.
• 46:12
  He looked at you for about 10 minutes and told you were, in his words, correct me if I'm wrong, a cappuccino kind of girl.
• 46:21
  He suggested that you would probably prefer a leisurely life and you were best suited to one.
• 46:26
  How did that land?
• 46:30
  So, look, that was a really...
• 46:34
  That was a big moment.
• 46:35
  I can imagine.
• 46:37
  And the reason that it was is because, you know, I had had a history of Crohn's disease and endometriosis.
• 46:45
  I had managed that.
• 46:46
  I was diagnosed with both of those at age 19.
• 46:48
  I'd had quite a few surgeries.
• 46:50
  My Crohn's was not great.
• 46:52
  But when I moved to Sydney for my first sort of full-time professional role, I did the graduate program and I just became...
• 46:59
  really sick.
• 47:00
  My Crohn's was really unmanageable and I just kept pretending I was fine.
• 47:04
  And sort of one night at work I had this horrendous vertigo attack
• 47:10
  I fell over and then I really genuinely for the next five months I was off balance.
• 47:16
  I had this vertigo.
• 47:17
  I had dizziness.
• 47:19
  I was not well and I did.
• 47:20
  I moved back home to my parents.
• 47:22
  They were in northern New South Wales.
• 47:24
  You know, my life really changed.
• 47:26
  I was not sort of, I was no longer participating really mentally.
• 47:31
  in a functional sense of life.
• 47:33
  And so it was this huge change.
• 47:34
  And we went on this medical merry-go-round to try and work out what was happening.
• 47:40
  And very early on in the piece, quite a few people had said to us, oh, there's this one specialist you've got to go and see, you know, this is the one specialist you have to see.
• 47:49
  And so I had put a lot of hope onto this particular person and over this sort of,
• 47:56
  It was wild.
• 47:57
  You couldn't ring reception and book an appointment like with most other specialists.
• 48:04
  The only way to get an appointment was your GP had to fax through a referral and then that practice would fax back the appointment you could get.
• 48:11
  And there was no way of... Wow.
• 48:13
  So quite early in my...
• 48:15
  time being unwell, we did this and we got this appointment, but it was, it was probably four months away when I, when we first got it, but I'd probably been sick for about a month before we, anyway, just before we had this appointment, um,
• 48:31
  I had seen a physician in Lismore who was in his early 70s.
• 48:36
  He was about to retire.
• 48:38
  And I had spent these four months, really everyone we went and saw, I would hope they would have an answer.
• 48:43
  And I had like every scan, MRIs, MRAs, CT scans we did.
• 48:48
  I had every blood test known to man.
• 48:50
  We tried all these different diets, like I was cutting out everything.
• 48:54
  We were trying Eastern medicine, Western medicine.
• 48:57
  And every time I went to an appointment,
• 49:00
  I came away feeling crushed because nobody could tell me what was happening.
• 49:04
  And the more times that people couldn't tell me what was happening, I started to worry that I was imagining it, that it wasn't real.
• 49:12
  And, you know, needless to say, my mental health was not great at this point.
• 49:17
  And anyway, my mum managed to get me to go to this appointment to see a
• 49:26
  I just I really didn't want to go to this appointment because I thought every time I go to an appointment, I get derailed because I just become crushed with disappointment.
• 49:33
  And then I get scared and I hate it.
• 49:35
  So I really didn't want to go to this appointment.
• 49:37
  I did.
• 49:38
  And he sat down, looked at all of the things and just said all of my reports.
• 49:42
  And he just said, Georgie, I am so sorry this is happening to you.
• 49:46
  And even just that line made me cry because none of the professionals that I had seen had ever said that something was happening to me, which is why I kind of wondered whether it was in my head.
• 49:55
  And he said, Georgie, in my experience treating patients for almost 50 years, every time someone presents with unexplained physical symptoms, it is always stress.
• 50:07
  And he said, these symptoms are real.
• 50:10
  It's not in your head.
• 50:11
  And he said, but we have done every test.
• 50:13
  So if there was a, you know, biological explanation for this, we would know what it is.
• 50:19
  And so at that point, he recommended that I be admitted as an inpatient to a psychiatric hospital.
• 50:24
  Yeah.
• 50:25
  When he said that, I actually felt relief because I knew that it was true.
• 50:30
  But the cruel thing was we saw him and this appointment that we'd been waiting for this other doctor was the next week and that was in Sydney.
• 50:39
  And I just wasn't willing to let go of it.
• 50:41
  And my mum and I had a huge fight about it because she was like, gee, no.
• 50:47
  this is what we need to do.
• 50:48
  We need to get you into this clinic and this is what we're going to do.
• 50:50
  And I was like, I will go to the clinic, but I'm not missing out on this appointment because in case there's something, this is the guy.
• 50:57
  Anyway, we decided I would go to Sydney to see this specialist and that I would then come back and go to the clinic.
• 51:04
  So needless to say, there was quite a bit of pressure riding on this appointment and genuinely the feedback was I looked like a cappuccino girl.
• 51:12
  And to be fair, I love cappuccinos.
• 51:14
  So like in that regard, he was on.
• 51:17
  But the point that I think he was making was that I was maybe designed for a really little leisurely lady life and why bother myself with things like work?
• 51:30
  That your constitution wasn't commensurate with ambition.
• 51:35
  Yeah.
• 51:36
  So needless to say, that was a pretty sad journey home.
• 51:38
  My dad came to Sydney with me for that appointment and it was, yeah, yeah.
• 51:44
  But I don't think I could have, I don't think I could have let that appointment go just because where we'd been, it just was in my head as this beacon.
• 51:53
  And at that point, I just really...
• 51:56
  I had put a lot of hope on it.
• 51:58
  So thank goodness we had the backup plan, which is what I needed and ended up being absolutely the right thing for me.
• 52:04
  But yeah, that was a powerful story.
• 52:09
  And I imagine that was a catalyst for you to shift your life, like to change things.
• 52:15
  Very much so.
• 52:16
  You know, and I've often said this, like, I think that
• 52:21
  I, having had the sort of breakdown that I did, it was quite beneficial in a way because it was so severe that I could not pretend it was okay.
• 52:32
  And I think by the time I landed in the psychiatric hospital and I had some really intensive psychology, social workers, psychiatrists, group therapy, and I sort of, I describe it as kind of, you know, taking the car to a mechanic and lifting the lid.
• 52:46
  I sort of did that and I realised that,
• 52:49
  I had really internalised my health issues as sort of character flaws or deficiencies and I was so determined to overcome that, which is why I was desperate to stay employed at this big law firm, even though no one in my life was saying to me, wow, this looks like it's going really well, you better stick at this.
• 53:07
  I wasn't happy but I was too scared to walk away because I'd worked really hard at uni to sort of get this, you know, in commas, good job.
• 53:17
  And so, yes, in the end, and I think probably if I hadn't have got as sick as I did, it would have been easy to sort of teeter along minor burn, not minor, but like burnout.
• 53:29
  Yeah.
• 53:30
  Without making dramatic change.
• 53:32
  Whereas because it fell apart, I had no choice other than to recognise that maybe things weren't working out for me so well and it might be time to change tack, which I did.
• 53:41
  Yeah, I have a beautiful friend who's also been a guest on this show, Amelia Phillips, and she talks about temporal landmarks in our life and how are these defining moments, for better or worse, that change the complete trajectory of our lives.
• 53:54
  And at the time, they might be horrendous.
• 53:56
  They might be horrible.
• 53:57
  They might be marvellous.
• 53:58
  But there are a radical shift and deviation from where you were.
• 54:03
  And for many women who listen to this show, I know I get lots of DMs from people after keynotes.
• 54:08
  I have women quietly coming up in the elevator and telling me that it was a serious moment in their life that forced them to change things or that perhaps they're on the precipice of a health crisis, a relationship breakdown.
• 54:21
  Yeah.
• 54:21
  Yes.
• 54:22
  And, you know, the genesis for the work that I do now was me being hooked up to a ventilator, unable to breathe because I was having seizures at the same time as COVID because I too was burnt out.
• 54:35
  And I see so many incredible women who don't listen to their bodies until they're forced into.
• 54:42
  And, you know, we are all here.
• 54:44
  Our bodies keep score.
• 54:46
  Our bodies don't lie.
• 54:47
  Yes.
• 54:47
  And one of the things that I am really passionate to talking to women about and giving them the science and really pragmatic tools is to learn how to dance with stress.
• 54:56
  Because it's inevitable in our modern lifestyles.
• 55:00
  But the good news is there are things to do.
• 55:02
  So in wrapping up today's episode, and thank you for sharing that story so openly.
• 55:07
  I think we need more very ambitious and accomplished women sharing the challenges that they've had, the hard fought battles that they've won.
• 55:16
  to give permission to other women to attack the problem early on, to not wait until it's too late, and to get rid of the shame and the guilt that's often attached to those sorts of experiences.
• 55:29
  So thank you.
• 55:29
  I would like to know in closing out, this is a question I try and ask all the guests, what does spacious success look like for you right now as a mum to three kids?
• 55:39
  who's operating in the same infrastructure, the broken arithmetic that we've talked about today, a mum who's running a national organisation.
• 55:48
  What does spacious success look like to you?
• 55:50
  What's one simple thing that you do to experience that?
• 55:55
  It's a really good question and I think that I'm really conscious that in our family life we do move through different seasons and stages and different chapters present different challenges and also things.
• 56:13
  There are different joys that come with each season.
• 56:16
  And I think one of the things for me is that I can get up early and exercise.
• 56:22
  I can walk, I can go to the gym, I can do Pilates early in the morning whenever I want.
• 56:27
  And that is just not something that I had...
• 56:30
  capacity to do.
• 56:31
  My husband is medical.
• 56:33
  When we had young children, he was still doing his medical training.
• 56:35
  He would be out the door by 6am every day.
• 56:39
  So mornings were always chaotic.
• 56:41
  I still have Crohn's disease.
• 56:43
  And for a period of time after having the three girls, I was in really chronic pain with rheumatoid arthritis.
• 56:49
  And the combination of having lived in pain, but also having
• 56:55
  very limited flexibility to start the day with any space for me.
• 56:59
  That is one of, that's the first thing that came to my mind is I can set my alarm early and I can get up and I can take the dog for a walk and look at the sun come up and get a coffee.
• 57:09
  And that is one tiny part of my day that does feel spacious.
• 57:14
  And I think that there is gratitude associated with finding space somewhere where it previously was not available.
• 57:23
  Yeah.
• 57:24
  Oh, that is beautiful.
• 57:24
  And I love where you began that answer and reminding us that we all have different seasons.
• 57:30
  My beautiful EA, Karen, who has sadly passed, always used to say to me, Christy, what does success in this season of your life look like?
• 57:38
  And so if you are listening to this episode and you are in the trenches of early parenthood and getting up early and going for a leisurely walk,
• 57:46
  Sounds like utopia, but without, you know, not within reach.
• 57:50
  Please know that the opportunity does come back at some point.
• 57:54
  But look for what is attainable.
• 57:56
  What does success, what would spaciousness look like?
• 57:58
  And often I think we envisage these grand gestures, you know, the day spa visit, the retreat in Bali.
• 58:05
  And I love that you've shared that it's something achievable, pragmatic, but it's something that feels spacious in this particular stage of your life.
• 58:14
  Thank you.
• 58:16
  That's much better.
• 58:17
  Thank you.
• 58:17
  Can our listeners find out more about what you're doing?
• 58:20
  Is there a campaign where your listeners go?
• 58:22
  What can they do to learn more about the important work that the parenthood does?
• 58:26
  Where can their organisations find out about supporting some of your initiatives?
• 58:31
  Let us know where we can reach you, where we can follow your work.
• 58:34
  Georgie, can I say, is very active on social media, on LinkedIn and Instagram, and is very quick to respond to any media or news stories that might suggest that this is a mother's issue.
• 58:46
  We didn't get around to talking to it today, but in recent weeks, the whole Dish, which is an Australian fashion brand, have been.
• 58:53
  shared some absolutely, I would say, would you agree, groundbreaking revolutionary policies.
• 58:59
  And it created, I think I was surprised by the response.
• 59:03
  I thought people would unanimously applaud their initiative and the depth and breadth of their policies.
• 59:09
  But as the internet does, it caused a little controversy and there was some criticism.
• 59:14
  And Georgie responded so articulately about what's fair.
• 59:17
  There was some pushback from non-political
• 59:20
  parents and caregivers, suggesting that the entitlements that DISH provide just their parents and caregivers was unfair to those who chose not to have children or caregiving responsibilities.
• 59:31
  So Georgie is quick to respond, is detailed in what she shares.
• 59:35
  So where can we go to follow the work that you do?
• 59:38
  Thank you.
• 59:38
  That is so kind.
• 59:39
  Yeah, look, I would say if you're interested in the work that we're doing, look us up on Instagram.
• 59:44
  So the Parenthood is the business account or the charity account.
• 59:49
  And then I'm on Georgie Dent and you can look us up.
• 59:52
  Our website is theparenthood.org.au.
• 59:55
  We have got a couple of active campaigns underway.
• 59:58
  One of them is for 12 months of paid parental leave and replacement wage rate to be shared.
• 1:00:03
  Another one is for...
• 1:00:05
  universal access to high quality, affordable early childhood education care.
• 1:00:10
  And so if those are issues that are of interest to you, follow us.
• 1:00:14
  You can add your email on the website to join.
• 1:00:18
  We are not for profit.
• 1:00:19
  We are independent.
• 1:00:21
  We just work on advocacy.
• 1:00:23
  So basically giving voice to parents and making sure that decision makers cannot ignore the structural realities that parents are facing.
• 1:00:31
  And I think, you know, it goes to that season level.
• 1:00:34
  question.
• 1:00:35
  And I actually say this to people quite a lot because our girls are now, you know, eldest is 16, our youngest is 10.
• 1:00:41
  We're in a really different stage to the early years, which is a lot of the policies that we talk are really important.
• 1:00:48
  And
• 1:00:50
  It is a really relentless time in your life.
• 1:00:53
  And I always say to parents, like, things will change.
• 1:00:58
  And if it's hard right now, it's certainly not hard because you're doing it wrong.
• 1:01:02
  I know that for sure.
• 1:01:03
  But also things will change.
• 1:01:06
  And I think, you know, one of the things we haven't really talked about, but I did work part time for a long time.
• 1:01:12
  And I love that I had been able to have been able to work part time and still have a really purposeful and I do think impactful career.
• 1:01:20
  Yep.
• 1:01:21
  Anyway, so if any of those issues resonate with people, follow us along.
• 1:01:24
  We absolutely are on a mission to create these changes, even though they're ambitious.
• 1:01:28
  But that's why we're chasing them, because they are ambitious and parents deserve them.
• 1:01:33
  They do.
• 1:01:34
  And with that, I'm going to close out.
• 1:01:36
  But it would be remiss of me not to say another sincere thanks.
• 1:01:39
  I know I speak on behalf of lots of people that I know that are
• 1:01:42
  grateful for your relentless determination that we talked about at the beginning.
• 1:01:47
  Long may that continue until we see the reforms, the policy changes, the structural and systemic changes that not just mothers, but all parents need for us to experience the life that we want.
• 1:02:00
  So thank you.
• 1:02:00
  And thank you for your time today, Georgie.
• 1:02:03
  It has been a great conversation.
• 1:02:05
  Thank you, Christy.
• 1:02:06
  And thank you so much for the amazing work that you do supporting all of the amazing women in your community.
• 1:02:13
  I think you would agree.
• 1:02:14
  When you know something is your mission, you have this deep-seated belief that you have no other option other than to pursue that.