Latest / Mental Health Matters / Unpacking the expectations placed on women

Transcript

Unpacking the expectations placed on women · Mental Health Matters

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Audrey Tang.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: And me, Judith Crozier.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is the show where we talk about all things mental health and well-being, but we go away from all those quick fixes and hot takes.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: We have real practitioner support from people who have been working in the field for a very long time.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: So we know the information we're putting out there is thought-through, often highly researched, and certainly done in practice.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now, today we have our wonderful Felicia Jones.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: She's a stress consultant.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: But we're going to be talking about some other things that are causing people stress these days.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: And these, the first show, because it is a double episode, so you're going to see the next part next week.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: We have split it, so you're not listening to us for two hours.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: But this first bit is all about the archetypes we're seeing on social media.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: There is one archetype called the Trad wife, which, to my thinking, is the wife that just stays at home, supports the husband, does everything for him, cooks dinner, looks after the children, that's all she does.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then the opposite end of the scale, the professional career woman who is running all her businesses, maybe doesn't have time for children, that sort of thing.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: So those are the two extremes, and they are the two archetypes that are causing people stress.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they're causing people stress, women in particular, A, if we're not falling into those categories, or if we're we are in one of those categories and we're not living up to what the social media says.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Why do we get so drawn into this, do you think, Jude?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's a six million dollar question, I suppose.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose it's because things have changed so much from one to the other, and also somewhere in between.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: All of us are somewhere in between, aren't we?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I think we most people are.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it was actually, you know, one of my guilty pleasures is maths married at first sight.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was watching the Australian one, and the and the the last series and the previous series of Australian one, on each there was a woman, each who were very open about the fact they wanted to be a traditional wife, and it was so surprising to hear somebody kind of now, you know, in this day and age, saying, No, all I want to do is stay home, make dinner for my husband, make the house nice.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was really unusual to hear that.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I and I've been trying to think about that.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Why why is it so strange to hear that?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's because some people do want that, but maybe are not open about it.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think it is okay to want what you want.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, of course, of course.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: 100%, yeah.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: As long as it is your choice.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: If it's your choice, who are we to criticize?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's your life.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it's and it was almost like they felt bad for saying, that's what I want, I don't want the career and that.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: But they were very clear about no, I just want that.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's quite brave to say that actually.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder whether it's the social media side of it that starts making us think you have to be this.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, this is what it is, and it's telling you, it's placing expectations on you, and that's the actual problem.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna meet Felicia again, because we love Felicia, and we're gonna unpack this topic.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Felicia, welcome to Mental Health Matters.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's always a pleasure to chat with you.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's lovely being back with you, Audrey, Andrew.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Lovely to be here.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely, lovely to see you.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And today's topic is such uh it's a really modern one because you've got this idea of the career woman almost versus the trad wife, and trad wife is a phrase that we've only just started hearing.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um they're often presented as two ideals that women try and strive for.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's true personally, but how realistic are those two portrayals and should we be even using them?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think that they are depictions of what we see in social media, and like you said, it is a modern phenomenon.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to put some context on this.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: That when I was doing some research, I saw um some research that had been done by the King's College, and they were actually saying that the trad wife or the traditional wife is less about being the Stepford wives that we kind of imagine or domesticity, it's really now because women, modern women, are having so much pressure put upon them, and they're looking for an alternative, so they're looking for they're looking for leisure, they're looking for things that are going to allow them to have more of the life that they really want to, and for some women, they feel that feminism hasn't actually delivered what they thought it was going to be.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we were sold this image of us being able to have it all and do it all, and it's just not realistic for everybody.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so the trad wife is also often somebody who was working before and recognised that I'm working in a job where I'm not appreciated, there's a lot of pressure in that job, I'm not remunerated as well as I'd like to be.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: What's the point of this?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so they're actually looking for an alternative.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not necessarily this picture that we see about just these women baking lovely cakes and you know, looking after after their family and their husbands.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's something to put in as well is that the it's a choice that that you know, track wives or or or women who want to look after their husbands, their family, it's a choice that they actually make, but on social media often there's a backlash because there's these pictures of these ideal homes and you know these lifestyles which are just unobtainable.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then on the other hand, we have the pressure of women who are at work trying to do all of these things and would love to be able to stay at home.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where you know we're seeing a lot of this conflict as well.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: But I will say an another thing that that really came across when I was looking into it and and the research, um, and this this started a long time ago, is that this is kind of women against women because there's a kind there's a um a depiction that trad wives are uneducated, that they really don't know um much about what's actually happening in the world, and so that's the option that they're choosing, and and that's just not realistic at all.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's so helpful you put that in context because I think the assumption of trad wife is exactly that a very sheltered woman who does everything for her husband.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: But what you've said is exactly what I think a lot of women do think about.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: The career is burning them out, they want to have a balance between things, and it's funny you say that because it reminds me of the Barbie movie because I thought they missed a trick in the Barbie movie.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't like it, but I won't go into that.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's one bit when all the Barbie's are looking after all the kittens because that's part of what they do, and then they speak to Dr.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Barbie and says, this is Dr.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Barbie, why are you doing this?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: You you don't why are you serving men like this?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And she says, I'm so fed up of being a doctor.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so fed up of people coming to me saying, fix this, do that, do this, all I want to do is serve some bing and be treated like a woman.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and actually they didn't play on that because what they do later when they go to the real world, the head of Mattel, he he, the man, he also repeats it.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: He says, I'm so fed off of being the leader, I'm so fed up of everyone doing and expecting me to do all of these things.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I wish they played on that because I think that's the message that needed to come across.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they missed a big trick.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: They missed a big trick.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: So on that, I think there is something to be said that we need to tease out now about the professional woman and the career woman, because it feels like there's rules surrounding being professional.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if you watch the film Ladies First, I know this is not about films, but one of the rules is look good, but not too good, yeah, because otherwise you won't be taken seriously.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: How do these rules and these things we have to live up to affect us psychologically?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really interesting, Audrey, that you brought up two films.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't finish Barbie, I didn't really care for that, and I did watch Ladies First, and I did finish all of that.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: But the thing that I found about Ladies First, and if if anybody hasn't seen it, the premise is a woman who's a successful marketeer in an organization goes for a promotion, thinks she'll get it because she's worked hard, and a guy gets it who really doesn't do that much.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: But then he has an accident and he has this epiphany where he becomes the underling and the woman has become the boss.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Now, what I thought was unrealistic because at the end it turns around he wakes up from this accident and miraculously he sees the world differently, but I don't think that is realistic.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think we go back to our norms, to the way that things are are structured.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and society has such a strong pull on us that that you know that that happens.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, if we look at reality, yes, you may have um people who or men who become allies or recognise that the gender pay gap is still about 13%.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: And the Forsyt Society did research and they found that women of colour it's double and that they find it even harder to actually get into those prominent positions.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the reality of what's actually happening, and I think you know, being in business, a successful woman, it is really a challenge.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to, if you can see this book by Mary Porter's very successful woman, work like a woman, her book's entitled.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's all about working as a feminine woman and not trying to emulate men.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: But there are women who don't know where to go, they're in positions of power, they're around all men, there aren't necessarily women guiding them, so they emulate what men are doing, and then the structures don't actually change.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: And another, just quickly, um book that I read, an autobiography, was by um Dawn Butler, who's the MP for Brent, and she was saying that in Parliament the women's party she found, and this is her experience, so I'm not saying you know, I agree or disagree.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um she was saying that it's not always supportive, it can actually undermine other women.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's really complicated and it's worth having a discussion around you know, around these things.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: What does it mean to be a successful woman?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: And with with both the ideals then, so the the trad wife and the um yes and the professional um the profess b women who work professionally, um what does it do to us then if we fall short of perceived expectations?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think really when we think about humans, how humans are created, they or we are created to be in relationship with each other.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, prehistorically it was all about belonging to a tribe, belonging to a community, that was our mechanism of survival.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think nowadays we have a different form of survival, and if we're othered or we're not included in that tribe because we sit slightly out of that, and particularly if we go for comparison, I think that can actually be quite dangerous to us.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: It can actually start affecting not only our psyche and our mentality, but also just the way we operate, and now you'll see.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, I think this has been for a long time.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: We've got mothers versus women that don't have children, you have academics against vocational, those who went to university against those that didn't go to university.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Does it matter?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, it doesn't, but we do have all of these fractions, and and it's just it's not healthy.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I find as well that often because there is this pressure, women go along a certain path, a ladder, and then they find that's not the ladder, that's not the way that they wish they'd gone.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: And when that happens, there's a lot of resentment that gets built in, and instead of actually necessarily looking at themselves, that can get projected outwards.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the the pressure then that you mentioned, does that come from the expectation to play the roles perfectly, do you think, or um the or even the fact that we're expected to play anything a role?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think I think absolutely, and I think it is a really good question that you know what is this whole whole role playing?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, both like when we're stressed, and that that's what I focus on, the brain recognises what is unhealthy for us, what isn't actually keeping us safe, keeping us in alignment, keeping us in homeostasis.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that the way that we actually operate in the world now, sometimes that is not actually allowing us to be safe, it is actually a dangerous way to operate, and we can end up compromising who we are, we can end up losing a sense of our identity.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, like looking at the trad wife again, we have somebody who's made a choice to support her husband, her partner, her her her um family, her community, even but that role can be manipulated, that person can end up overgiving and people just taking advantage.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then when we look at the career woman, this is what I see a lot outwardly projecting I'm very successful, but underneath there's insecurity, and when that happens, it means that women won't necessarily be bold, won't stand up for what they really believe in, and then that can lead to burnout because you're pushing and pushing and pushing against something that's not really meant for you and that you can't attain.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we have these uh these rules and these ways of being perfect um perfect, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's who we really want to be, and I think that that's you know the real issue: is this who I want to be?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and who I want to be has got to be coming from ourselves authentically, not coming from social media telling us this is who you should be.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Felicia, we're keeping you.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be back just after a clip from the last time you were on the show.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Question from our viewers, Felicia.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this is one first question.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: People are always asking what's your why?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: But what if my why is just visual or superficial?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want to lose weight because I want to look good, but I don't want to tell people that because of all the other the other sort of things that go go with that.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So what this person said is I don't want to say that because it implies that I think people who are overweight do not look good, but I'm not actually talking about anybody else, I'm not judging them, I'm judging myself.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think the first thing that comes to mind with that really is you have to own it.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I say come to mind, but I think I've had this conversation with loads of clients before.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: But it is, it's about you owning it, and you don't have um the the control over what other people think.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, you have to know why you're actually doing it, it's what you you believe in, you're not actually judging anybody, and really own that and enjoy that you, you know, that you're on this journey if it's losing weight or if it's eating healthy or whatever it is, and if anybody actually comments to you, often what it is, and um I remember hearing this the other day again, is that people are triggered by what is their truth.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: So if somebody says, Oh, you're you're judging me because you've said this, it's it's often a deeper thing in them.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like if if you know I said to you, you don't brush your teeth, you'd go, talking about I always brush my teeth.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: But if I said something that was slightly in terms of where you feel uncomfortable, you'll feel it.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, if if somebody does feel that you're being judgy about you losing weight, you can't take responsibility for that.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yes, that's a very good point.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: We are not responsible for other people's feelings.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's a very nice piece of advice there.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, where we're having a really great discussion with Felicia Jones of stress less living and talking about the pressures on women.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, it's it's really, really interesting um talking about professional women and then the relatively new term, isn't it, of child wives.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um you mentioned before about women who try and have it all.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: So uh where might guilt show up for those women who do want to kind of mix those two roles together?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: I often think about it as being very much uh false guilt rather than you know, than than real um guilt because can we necessarily have it all?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm not quite sure about that.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I often meet women who are in what I call it like a guilt cycle almost, that I often hear them saying, I should be able to, I should, I should, I should, I should.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: And they never really get out of this cycle.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I'll be working with them, or maybe Audrey, you'd be working with women that are actually going through this, um, that are actually exploring it.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I believe there are a lot of other women who are in that guilt cycle, but they're not actually exploring this whole I should, I should, I should, and letting go of that should.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I think that um to actually step outside of that is really challenging.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think when I look at women who are strong, who are powerful, who are successful in business, and to be fair, I don't actually know that many of them, but they're not nasty people, they're not people who are um you know trying to cut everybody out, but what they are are people who know what they want.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: They're very distinct in saying, This is what I want, and this is for me, and this isn't for me.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that does come with age and that comes from experience, but I think that is where their strength is, they're not bothered about cutting people up because they know who they are, and they know what they need to actually do and and you know, and what they need to follow.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um, going back to the conversation we had before the break is that again it can be this fear of not sitting in the tribe, not actually um being part of that, and what's my identity going to be if I step outside of that, if I'm not part of this this this group, and I I hear that as well that that that fear that comes with that, and I'd say it's really challenging, but either try and find your own tribes, form your own tribes, or be uncomfortable not sitting in in a tribe, but knowing that what you're actually doing is is what you want to be doing.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think what we always say on this show is what somebody else's ideal on social media is is not gonna be everybody's ideal.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to stop having that affect us.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, it's easy, isn't it, to be drawn in by what other people say we should be doing.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and indeed.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you sort of touched on it a little bit there.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um do you think that women are are each other's worst critics?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and if that's true, then why might that be?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think sadly, I do see this.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't it's obviously not for all women, and particularly not the women that I come across, but I do see this, and I think particularly I see um a lot of uh adverts or people advocating this whole women for women and women supporting women.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I've often gone to join those communities, particularly in business, and found that they're sales, so it's like, will you support my business?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: And if you do, I might support yours.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're sucked into that.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I I want to connect with women, I want to support women, but it doesn't tend to be that, and that can be really disappointing.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think um, you know, when you talk to men about these, they they just say, What are you talking about?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: They're not really aware of of the the way that women work against women, and because it can be so subtle, yes, but it can also be insidious.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think working with women who've had women or female hurt, they often come because the people that have hurt them, and I'm not saying that this is always the case, but the way that the the you know the story unfolds is often women who feel threatened or they don't have their own sense of of validation or self esteem, or they want the power that they feel that the other woman will take away from them.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's you know, that's not the case.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think women can be strong advocators of of each other, they can support each other, they can really be.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Respectful, you know, and supportive.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I say, you know, if you've got that kind of woman in your life, then hold on.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because it it seems to be that if somebody is comfortable in their choices, then A, they don't feel the need to defend themselves and they don't feel the need to criticize other people.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: However, you do still get the criticism.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I know rationally you sort of sit there and go, well, that's clearly because you're not happy with the choice that you made.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: So now you're criticizing the choice I made, which I'm perfectly happy with.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Why do we feel so threatened when other people make different choices to us?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Just like, for example, you mentioned it earlier, having children, not having children.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: This seems to be such a bone of contention for a lot of women.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, not around me.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I I hear it a lot.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think our discussion, it kind of leads to this that it is that conditioning that we go back to that.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: We are sold this whole thing that we have freedoms, we can be anybody we want to be, we can do all of this.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, when we look at that, we are still going in into the status quo or the structures that were there.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: We're still seeing people getting married as much as as they were before.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: We're seeing lots of people starting families, even though divorce rates are as high as they they've ever been.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: We've got blended families.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: People still really believe in that um that that structure and really wanting that to happen.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I find that when you sit outside that structure, and particularly if you're happy doing it, it can really provoke strong feelings in others who haven't followed that path.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're talking about women who have children, who don't have children, you know, um not having ch children, it might not be your choice, but if you're happy in your life, that can really impact a woman who not that she's not happy with her her children, but she didn't make the career choice, or she hasn't the ability to travel or do the different things that that you've done, you know, and so I think it comes back to the dissatisfaction that people feel in themselves.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I only wish that people looked at things earlier, they didn't leave it until later in life and become really um threatened by other people and become really resentful, because over time that's what I see really, really does happen.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna throw a sort of a bit of a curveball into this next question because um I was doing a workshop with Dr.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Maya Yankovska, who's also on the show, she's one of our um clinical psychologists, and she was talking about this idea of competition, this idea of threat, and there is this element of we've been brought up to criticize.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason why, and I say that because if you've done psychology, history, most essay writing subjects, what are you told?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Critically think about that.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, criticise somebody's work, criticize Yates, criticize Shakespeare, you know, criticize all of these psychologists who come before, okay, Freud maybe, you know, but that's what we are taught.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: In our minds, therefore, we are gonna be almost naturally critical.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and I hate it because we're saying now critical thinking isn't in existence because of AI, that's not a bad thing.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to that, and when it comes to um critical thinking, criticizing ourselves, criticising other people, with that in mind, with the conditioning in mind, with the feeling threatened in mind, if we've made a choice and then we suddenly go, oh, I really didn't like that choice, how do we backtrack from that choice without losing face to ourselves and maybe without taking on the criticism so personally?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's really good the context that you put it in because if you think about survival, then this this comes into the same way that we have a lot more negative thoughts than we have positive thoughts, and it's the same kind of thing because we're trying to stay away from danger.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're not going to look at, I don't know, like a car coming to us 100 miles an hour and saying, Oh, you know, this ice cream I've got is an ice cream.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's the way that our brain works, and so we are more over-critical than we, you know, than than not.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think, yeah, it's it's really great to put that that in context.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that if you're constantly looking at other people and looking and comparison and comparing yourself, then if you really look at yourself, you're on the wrong path.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Something inside you is actually saying, and I remember reading a book ages ago, and it was actually saying that when you are uh jealous of somebody, it's not that you're being mean to them, it's that you want what they have, and so the best way to actually resolve that is do what they do, or do what you need to do to get what they have.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's never too late to you know have a kind of family structure if that's what you feel you've missed out on, or a career or uh or a friendship group, it's never too late, but you've got to look at yourself and you've got to do the work, and that can be really challenging for people to not project outward but to look at themselves and actually say what is it that I want to do, yeah, and then take the steps to actually do that.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think when I look at my work in in stress management, people often think it's about just you know, you're feeling bad and feeling better, and it's not just about identifying stresses, it's actually looking at things that aren't going right and putting a strategy in place.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: And much of what I do is putting a strategy in a place and being accountable to support somebody actually doing the action.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: So speak to a friend, you know, join a group, get a professional to help you, or even, you know, as I said before, about the book.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Get a book and go through the those exercises.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Nowadays, there's just so many different avenues that we can do, but it will be work.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's no getting away from it, it will be work.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, because it's so comfortable to sit in almost that paralysis by analysis, and it is, oh I know, therefore I've made the change.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, you haven't.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you've just thought about it, you've just analyzed it.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Felicia, we're keeping you.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be back just after a click from the last time you're on the show.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think when I'm talking about this, it resonates so much with me because I've had a huge amount of setbacks, and so what I would say is get a community.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, get people who really support you and who you can talk to about this kind of thing.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked about lapses, we've talked about, you know, getting things in perspective, and if you've got a community, and that community could be online, it could be friends that you meet for coffee, it could even be, and I know this sounds strange, a book that has tips in there that really supports you.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: So get a community around you who you can openly share with these things that are actually going on, and when you're in that community, like we've just been talking, you just recognize this is the human condition.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm not a bad person because I set this goal and I didn't make it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I've got somebody saying to me, just make these small small goals, change these habits.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, community is a huge thing.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the other thing that I'd say the tip is own it.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to change something in your life, it's not gonna be easy.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: But if you think about everybody else that that's doing it and who's gonna complain that you're not doing it, you know, in the right way or you're not supporting them, you're never going to make that change.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want to make a change, own it.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: You deserve it, and enjoy what the result is.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters with Felicia Jones and from Stressless Living and um yeah, fascinating conversation, isn't it?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: It really is about our own self-awareness as much as anything else, and I think that's key.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so uh talking about potentially unrealistic ideals, then, what might be the mental costs of trying to live up to them and what are women in general kind of facing at the moment?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think that it's you know, I don't like that word epidemic because it sounds as if it's but you know, when you're having conversations with women upon women upon women, particularly in later life, who recognise that the choices they've made haven't made them happy.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I know for happiness is kind of fleeting, but they don't have that sense of satisfaction.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: It feels as if there's you know, there's there's such a waste, and I know that particularly um, and I am an advocate for social media, believe it or not.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: I know that we have these conversations all the time.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's got its good points! But you know, we have this huge world that's consumed by social media, and I see women that get really sucked in and they're using it all the time and not having like real relationships, they that you know, having all these pseudo-relationships, sometimes you know, scrolling on the phone rather than than and speaking and or or interacting with you know with with children.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing that I often say is this whole uh and and you kind of talked about it before, Audrey, is that that uh there's so much information out there that can provide us with uh tools to support ourselves.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I see women just going from one um social media post or course to another to another, and it becomes addictive.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: And when that happens, uh you do lose your sense of identity because there's no uh really like you're saying critical thinking, there's almost no thinking because you're actually abandoning all your own thoughts and all your own reasoning to what other people are constantly telling you.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yes, yes, okay.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's so important to meet real people, to have these real conversations, and as well not to sit in clicks, yeah, and those people that we're comfortable with that are always saying the same thing, branch out a little bit and meet other people to actually question, you know, is that is that what I think?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Is that is that not what I think?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: And can I make a different decision?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if you you meet um a woman who's doing something that you would like to do and you're not, speak to her, be brave enough to speak to her.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: She'll happily tell you, yeah.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, absolutely.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: She's really happy and said that's what she'll tell you.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, indeed.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so, how then do we build that confidence to be able to make our own decisions and go down the route that we want to do um without the need to seek validation?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let me ask you this.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: If you have been invited into a room, maybe it's a business, or maybe it's just an event you've never been to, or you have to do something that you haven't done before, how do you feel?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: A bit nervous, anxious, maybe?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean that's I'm really glad you said that, and you didn't go, oh, I feel great.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: Here we go.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can act like I feel good and and confident, but yeah.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: But that's a natural feeling because we're not in that tribe yet.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know, you know, that community or that group that we're actually going into, and so it is supposed to feel uncomfortable because we don't know for sexual, but actually having that experience is so enriching and enlightening because it actually shows us I can do the difficult, I can be in environments that I'm not used to, and I can get used to them, or I can speak to that person that I haven't spoken to.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: It gives us a lot of validity in our own ability to be able to do these things.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one thing that I'd say, you know, actually go into those environments that make you feel a little bit uncomfortable, and then once you've come out of that, firstly say, Well, I did it because that tells your brain I can do it again, but really, you know, take that on board.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: I can do this, I can do ventures that I haven't done before.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: It might take time, it might be challenging, but I can do it.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's important because you've built up that experience that you've done it even though you're nervous, and now you can do something else just as nerve-wracking again.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's important.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is a question to both of you.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm not scrolling on my phone, I've forgotten my script, so it's on here.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just social media.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, has there been an area of your life?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is to both of you, Felicia and to Jude, where you have felt you can't win because you're a woman, or because you're a woman of colour, or because you're a woman of a certain age, or has there been that experience for you?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just curious as to to know what it was and how you dealt with it.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Who wants to go first?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay, I'll go first.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: One thing I'm I'm loving seeing now is all these remakes of musicals and all these new musicals where um they're cut colour blind casting.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: I know people have in arms about certain characters and things like that because they're going, it's a fantasy, you know, there's a talking snowman in this particular, it doesn't remember who is playing what.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I have always done colourblind casting, partly because I'm Asian, and we can't get away from that.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, if I'm gonna play a pump, I'm gonna play the play the pump.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I wrote to people um who held licenses before, and they would tell me, oh, yeah, no, you can't do that.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can't cast a woman in that part, you can't cast a man in that part, you can't do I understand certain roles that need to be played by somebody of that ethnicity, and I would never play play around with that.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: But that was something I've done my whole life and been told I can't keep doing it, and now everybody's doing it.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I sat I'm sitting there kind of going, oh, validation.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that that annoys me because I just I couldn't do it.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Completely mad when you think about uh that you that's what you were talking about.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Doing it now once.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe people did actually see what you were doing, and that's why they're actually doing it now.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, ago.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: I like to think that you know, Jamie Lloyd saw saw all of my shows with men in pants.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: He is from Hastings, so Well, you never know.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: He probably did.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I wish.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: What about yourself, Felicia?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying this in an arrogant way at all, but I think from a very early age, and you know, particularly as I've got older, because it's become more challenging as I've got older, I've always done things that have challenged me or made me feel uncomfortable because I don't want to be scared of doing things.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and as I get older, I feel more of that, even to the extent now, you know, I've driven for I don't know, 20 plus years, more than that.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes when I've got to go on a long journey somewhere that I haven't been before, I can actually feel this angst coming, and I think there's no way that I'm not gonna do that journey because if I do, then the next time I'm not going to do that journey that's a little bit closer, and then before I know it, I'm just gonna be going up and down you know, up and down my high street.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that happens, yeah.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: We lose conversation.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: I see that all the time.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think and you know, there's something else that I and it and it's and it stops you doing things that you love.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because something that I love doing is spoken word poetry.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: But that means that you have to stand up in front of people and perform.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: And even if you know, I mean, I'm talking to you, I know you, so I'm comfortable with you, but and even if I'm speaking to an audience that I I've met before, it's still nerve-wracking standing up against you've got all these eyes looking at you, and you're putting your heart and soul into your words and how that's actually going to be received.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I kind of cut myself off and think I'm not gonna think about it, I'm just going to do it how however it is.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I don't do that, I know, and that's what I constantly tell myself.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: If I don't do that, then the next time I'll make up an excuse, and then I'll make up an excuse, and then after that, you know, I won't.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I have these little rules for myself, I have loads of different little rules, which makes me sound like like like quite odd.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, um something I I I think about is that years ago I would continually follow people up.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: So now if I'm trying to engage with people or I'm reaching out to people and they're ignoring me or they're not responding to me, I let it go.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because I realize I wasted so much time following up and trying, and I recognise now that not everybody's gonna like me, not everybody's gonna be for me, and opportunities aren't awful.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think that comes with age, yeah, but again, I haven't sat in a lot of different tribes, I've had to just walk my own path, and in recognising that I don't fit in that tribe, it's been really uncomfortable, but it's actually allowed me to do other things that I really want to do.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think the key point there that also you make, Felicia, which is something we all need to take away, is that knowledge that we um become more and more scared if we don't do something.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and and I actually think age is part of that because of the constant narrative, you're too old to do that, it's not for you.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're absolutely right in just feel the fear, do it anyway.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can do it for that, you'll do it for another thing.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you stop doing it for spoken word poetry, you might stop doing it for driving down the street, which causes even bigger problems.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely powerful.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: What about you, Jude?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if we're talking about specifically where, like you said, you know, you can't win because you're a female or whatever.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, I think every single job I've chosen, there's been an element of that.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: I personally feel that um that I you know I've had managers that yeah, that that that it's an environment where that is the case, I think.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um with if with a few exceptions, obviously, and then my most current roles, you know, last year before whatever, probably being the most the being the most the biggest example of that, where if if I hadn't been female, if I'd been a male, then it would have been a whole different kettle of fish.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Where they talk to you, the Yeah, and just and just just the whole yes, exactly, and the whole respect kind of thing.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: But um something which really highlighted it yesterday was somebody came into where I was working yesterday and I'd set the whole thing up myself, you know, it's my own business, and um it was a male customer and he was talking to me about it, and he was like, he didn't know me, but he just said, Well done.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt I felt at that minute if I'd been male, he wouldn't have said that.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because it was almost like he was like, Wow, you've done another annual woman, oh well done that kind of thing.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just how I liked it for me yesterday.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, example.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: So true.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, this is such a great conversation, and I know we we we're not gonna keep you from nature because we are recording a very long session with you today, which is brilliant.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's gonna be for our next show.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: But our next show is gonna be entrepreneurship, so we're gonna change have to change the subject, but it's been so, so important to talk about this because I think it's highlighted a few misconceptions with what tribewise might be.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: You've really pulled out the point about choice, and that's really key.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um now, where can we find you if we want to learn more and speak to you more?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it's stresslessliving.co.uk is my website, and then from there you can see all the social medias which are under either Felicia Jones Nutrition or Stressless Living.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we will head over to Test the Trend.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Very quick question for today's test the trend, Jude.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd like you to think about any time in your life where you have thought I should do this, I should do that, I should, I don't know, go shopping, I should visit my mum in law or whatever, you know.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Where where where are the shoulds?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I probably think that about 20 times every single day, and I'm not even exaggerating.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's how I live my life.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right, so if you were to replace the should with I want to do something, what is it you would want to do?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not all the things that I should be doing.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what would you replace it with?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um you mean literally to name things.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I want to, so I should go to do my chores, but I want to.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, um have a five minute break, take Time out to eat my lunch properly, make a healthy lunch, take my dog out more, go to the gym.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Things for me, I suppose.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: So two learnings from that.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: The first is once you know what you want to do, make sure you try and prioritize those things.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's hard, but if it is just something like eat my lunch in peace, that's okay.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: You are allowed to do that.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is, and this is the interesting one when it comes to change.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know how you struggled with I don't know what I want to do.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's an interesting question.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I should do this, I should do that.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: When we run on shoulds the whole time, we actually don't think about what we want.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really difficult to make changes when we don't know what we want.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like if you're trying to lose weight and you have removed chocolate from your life.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: What are you replacing that with?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't know, and you you say, oh, running, I'm gonna replace it with running.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you hate running as well, then not only have you taken a pleasure away, but now you've added something you dislike, think about what it is you want to do and have that as the replacement.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because otherwise, taking away something isn't gonna make you choose the right thing, yeah, it's gonna make you choose another should.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, with regards to everything that she has talked about, uh what stood out?
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because for me there were so many things, especially the point about choice.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, definitely.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was just it just kind of made me realize that actually it's okay to be one or the other.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: I and there's probably people kind of shouting at the whatever they listen to their podcast on going, but no, because you have to be everything, because you know, mothers have to work, etc.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I really understand that.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: But if you are in a position where you don't have to work and therefore you choose not to, and you want to make the house nice and you want to be there to pick up your children, why not?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Why not do that?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely fine.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I sh how much stress are you cutting out of your life because of it?
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so, good on you, that's what I say.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the really important thing is Felicia talks a lot about self-awareness, knowing what it is you want, yes, because that's the other point that really stuck with this show was that if we're not happy with our choices, that's when we start picking holes in everybody else's.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the problems of of social media, and I know it has its good points, but one of the problems I see is people saying that this is the only way.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: They do, don't they?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: And they're so full of it's it's so definite.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're kind of drawn into that, you go, Oh yeah, I know I have to do and there have to be that.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but no, that's not true.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the thing I will take away from this is always be self-aware of what it is I actually want, because it's so easy to consume and then think, oh, actually I want that, but it's not.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've just heard that and I've been told that's what I want.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's almost like don't be, you know, be clear about your journey and then don't be waylaid on the way by what everybody else says.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: One thing Felicia said was just follow one or two, you know, influences or people that you want to follow, because otherwise you'll you'll be conflicted.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: Have a think about what you want this week, what you really want, not necessarily what people tell you you want, and have a healthy week.