Latest / Math Therapy / This will change how you show up as a leader w/ Alison Mello

Transcript

This will change how you show up as a leader w/ Alison Mello · Math Therapy

• 0:03
  Alison Mello: teachers wanna be seen and heard and valued.
• 0:04
  Alison Mello: Like it just comes down to that.
• 0:06
  Alison Mello: And they deserve that.
• 0:06
  Alison Mello: They work really hard.
• 0:08
  Alison Mello: Maybe I don't understand fractions, and all of a sudden there was this model in my new program that I've never seen before in my life and it triggers my math trauma to go right back to, I'm like the kid.
• 0:17
  Alison Mello: I had a teacher tell me recently, she stayed late after our session and said, you just healed the third grade me's math trauma.
• 0:24
  Alison Mello: You know how like custodians have a lot of keys on their key ring?
• 0:27
  Alison Mello: That's how we are as teachers.
• 0:28
  Alison Mello: We have all these keys and our job is to figure out how to unlock each student and they don't all unlock with the same key.
• 0:35
  Alison Mello: And so you might not have found the way to unlock your brilliance yet.
• 0:37
  Alison Mello: That's all.
• 0:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hello.
• 0:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hi, it's me, Vanessa, and welcome to your weekly hit of Math Therapy.
• 0:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let me ask you a question.
• 0:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Have you ever been in a school or a meeting or even just a convo where you know something needs to change?
• 0:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you can feel it in the air, but no one is saying it out loud and everyone's just like continuing on as though everything is fine.
• 0:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: And maybe you're sitting there thinking, okay, but if I say something, am I overstepping?
• 1:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is this even my role?
• 1:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: What if I don't have the answers?
• 1:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: What if I make it worse?
• 1:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, we talk so much about how to teach math better, but we don't talk enough about the people who actually create the conditions for that change to happen in the first place.
• 1:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Leaders! And not just the, I have a title kind of leaders, but the kind who actively create environments for the people around them to feel safe enough to speak up or try something new.
• 1:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: And today's guest is going to tell you exactly how we can develop more of those leaders and how you can become one yourself.
• 1:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Dr.
• 1:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Allison Mello is the expert when it comes to leadership and math education.
• 1:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: She's the one you call when you're like, SOS, my school district is falling apart, what do I do?
• 1:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: This badass B has 30 years in education with experience as a classroom teacher, instructional coach, curriculum director, district administrator, and math consultant.
• 1:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: She even has her own math conference, guys.
• 1:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's called Get Your Workshop On, and it's like a cool conference with a different theme every year, and actually I have to tell you this year's theme is Christmas in August, and I'm one of the keynotes, and there will be hot chocolate and gingerbread, and you can register right now and early bird pricing ends at the end of the month, so check the show notes for the link.
• 2:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, Allison and I talked about what it takes to be an effective leader, what it means if a leader has their own math anxiety, and the three things she believes every leader needs to know right now if there's any hope of changing math attitudes at the student and teacher level.
• 2:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: So if you've ever thought, why isn't anything changing?
• 2:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why are teachers still overwhelmed?
• 2:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or why are the kids still anxious about math?
• 2:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: And maybe why are my teachers still anxious about math, this episode is for you.
• 2:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if any moments in this episode make you spit out your coffee and scream,"oh my God, exactly", then remember you can text the podcast by hitting the link in the show notes, and please share this episode with someone that needs to hear it.
• 2:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, let's get started.
• 2:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Welcome to the podcast.
• 2:55
  Alison Mello: Thanks for having me on the podcast.
• 2:56
  Alison Mello: I'm so excited.
• 2:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's so much I wanna talk to you about, but I think, because honestly, you have been such a great mentor to me, and I know a lot of your work is in leadership, I kind of wanna talk to you about that today.
• 3:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because the top, you know, the leaders who are in charge of so much, that ethos and their perspective and their decisions trickle down to all of the educators that they influence and that we talk to every day.
• 3:22
  Alison Mello: Absolutely, like nothing happens without them first creating the conditions for it to happen.
• 3:28
  Alison Mello: So they are very important in the equation.
• 3:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Nice.
• 3:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Already starting strong with a math pun.
• 3:33
  Alison Mello: Mathy, I know, it's so mathy!
• 3:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: One of the things I believe that last time we talked, there were three things that came out of our conversation and I kind of wanna hone in on like your top three, like things that leaders need to know.
• 3:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I also wanna say this guys, if you're listening to this and you're like, Ugh, I'm not a leader, this doesn't apply to me.
• 3:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Alison, the coolest thing about Alison is when she talks, she's speaking about her area of expertise which is education, but we are all leaders in some respect, in some aspect of life.
• 4:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I feel like the coolest thing is that this is going to apply to yes, leaders in an educational setting, but leaders everywhere.
• 4:07
  Alison Mello: If there are teachers listening and, and anyone else from any other walk of life, they are very affected by what leaders do and how leaders make decisions.
• 4:15
  Alison Mello: And so whether that's in your office environment, if you're not in education, or if it's in your classroom environment, if you are in an education setting, we all know that the people who supervise us really affect our day-to-day.
• 4:26
  Alison Mello: So I just wanna frame it like that way.
• 4:28
  Alison Mello: Um, I have been in education for 30 years.
• 4:31
  Alison Mello: This is my 30th year.
• 4:33
  Alison Mello: And I was so happy in my little district for 15 years.
• 4:37
  Alison Mello: And when I resigned, I really wanted to get back to this place of spreading joy for teachers and supporting math.
• 4:45
  Alison Mello: And it was very noticeable to me almost immediately that some things and conditions were different than I had been used to in my district.
• 4:54
  Alison Mello: So these are the three things that I've really just continued to come up again and again and again.
• 4:58
  Alison Mello: So often leaders are really trying to promote change and so, in math education, often the fastest way to try to get things to change for the better is to adopt a new program.
• 5:11
  Alison Mello: Does that like sound familiar?
• 5:13
  Alison Mello: People talk a lot about HQIM or HQCM or whatever,
• 5:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just for those listening, HQIM, I have learned means high quality instructional materials or high quality instructional curriculum.
• 5:24
  Alison Mello: a high quality curricular materials.
• 5:26
  Alison Mello: Yes, either or.
• 5:26
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 5:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 5:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Amazing, amazing, amazing.
• 5:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: So yes, this is a huge thing.
• 5:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I will even say as somebody in the, in the education space, the number one word I hear is curriculum, right?
• 5:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: people are always talking about like this curriculum, that curriculum, program, program, program.
• 5:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like, I actually love that you're bringing this up.
• 5:47
  Alison Mello: Because at the end of the day, I feel like first of all, math programs are great.
• 5:50
  Alison Mello: They give us like some coherence, some clarity, some consistency, but it's the teachers who actually have to deliver the program.
• 5:57
  Alison Mello: And I don't think that we stop to consider what they are coming to the table with.
• 6:03
  Alison Mello: Do they have their own experiences with math that weren't really positive?
• 6:07
  Alison Mello: Like that's why I immediately thought of you.
• 6:08
  Alison Mello: I'm like, oh my gosh, how many teachers have their own math trauma that has never really been discussed, addressed, unpacked, and then they're sitting in these like, PD sessions like afraid to show anybody that they don't know.
• 6:20
  Alison Mello: And like no program is gonna fix that for them.
• 6:23
  Alison Mello: All they're gonna do is follow a script.
• 6:25
  Alison Mello: And I actually saw this quote recently that like a teacher started crying in front of her class because she was teaching something that she didn't understand, like that shouldn't happen.
• 6:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is such a, like, okay, I was trying to think of an analogy and I was like, you know what, I, what came to me right away?
• 6:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just because your husband told me to make tomato sauce last night and I did it.
• 6:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I just would like everyone to know that I am, I don't wanna be pejorative or, and yes, growth mindset, but I don't identify as being like, a cook.
• 6:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I make stuff, but like I have very little knowledge of like kitchen things.
• 7:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I remember your husband was like, okay, just make some sauce.
• 7:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, but like literally what do I do with the tomatoes?
• 7:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I don't know what to do.
• 7:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was thinking, like, handing someone a program is like someone handing someone a recipe who has no knowledge of what to do in the kitchen, maybe has some anxiety around like not knowing, maybe it's had some bad experiences because every time they followed a recipe, it hasn't turned out the way they wanted it to.
• 7:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's this amazing Schitt's Creek episode, maybe you've seen where in this recipe it says"fold in the cheese",
• 7:28
  Alison Mello: yes.
• 7:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: of them are like, right, everyone's like, well fold the cheese.
• 7:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they're like, but yeah, like you just fold it.
• 7:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what does that mean?
• 7:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's like, the program is only as good as the training you get or the person holding it.
• 7:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it's, it's a recipe.
• 7:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: But if you don't know what half the words on the recipe mean, or if you don't have the knowledge to, like, you're literally just following the words on it.
• 7:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Not thinking like about the fact that like it says something that might not make sense.
• 7:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're gonna end up with sauce that tastes like shit.
• 7:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which I didn't, by the way.
• 7:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Actually, my sauce was amazing
• 8:00
  Alison Mello: You killed it.
• 8:01
  Alison Mello: You killed it.
• 8:01
  Alison Mello: Okay.
• 8:01
  Alison Mello: I had no idea you were gonna gimme a, a recipe analogy, but can I just say, when I am working with districts, I'm always like, your program is the chicken, but you have to add the spices to make it taste better.
• 8:14
  Alison Mello: The teacher is the spice, right?
• 8:16
  Alison Mello: So like.
• 8:17
  Alison Mello: You might not have all the right ingredients.
• 8:20
  Alison Mello: You might not know your standards, or you might not know the questions to ask, or you might not know how this math is connected to other math.
• 8:26
  Alison Mello: So then, yeah, your lessons are like, I don't wanna say your lessons taste like shit, but like your lessons are like gonna fall super flat.
• 8:33
  Alison Mello: And as leaders, they often are like, well, that district over there got that program and, and they're, they're doing great.
• 8:39
  Alison Mello: Why are they doing great?
• 8:40
  Alison Mello: And we are not.
• 8:41
  Alison Mello: And that's the conversation I'm having over and over again.
• 8:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 8:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love this because also like programs cost a lot of money, right?
• 8:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like
• 8:50
  Alison Mello: Hundreds of thousands of dollars.
• 8:51
  Alison Mello: Oh yes.
• 8:52
  Alison Mello: Hundreds of thousands of dollars.
• 8:53
  Alison Mello: So huge investment.
• 8:54
  Alison Mello: And then not to mention the investment of time, like for the training that you get with the program.
• 8:59
  Alison Mello: Like think of what you're investing.
• 9:01
  Alison Mello: Your teacher's trust.
• 9:02
  Alison Mello: that's a huge thing that we could talk about too.
• 9:05
  Alison Mello: Like they're trusting you with this thing and trusting you with their time, and then they're sitting there and then does it, does anything change?
• 9:11
  Alison Mello: Does anything get better?
• 9:12
  Alison Mello: Like that is so much of the work that I'm doing, like trying to shift this lens from like pd, which is teachers often feel, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, they often feel like it's being done to them, not for them.
• 9:26
  Alison Mello: And so they resent it sometimes.
• 9:28
  Alison Mello: I don't know.
• 9:28
  Alison Mello: Have you ever encountered that phenomenon?
• 9:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 9:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: This, I am already picturing the clip I'm gonna post on Instagram of just this mic drop.
• 9:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: That was really good, Alison.
• 9:37
  Alison Mello: Well, it's for real though.
• 9:38
  Alison Mello: Like have you ever seen the meme?
• 9:40
  Alison Mello: This could have been an email.
• 9:41
  Alison Mello: Like so much of that.
• 9:44
  Alison Mello: Let me figure out how to use this program like through training, but like when am I gonna learn like the real stuff about the pedagogy or the math content or the stuff I don't get?
• 9:53
  Alison Mello: Like maybe I don't understand fractions.
• 9:55
  Alison Mello: And all of a sudden there was this model in my new program that I've never seen before in my life and it triggers my math trauma to go right back to, I'm like the kid.
• 10:02
  Alison Mello: I had a teacher tell me recently, and I don't wanna take this credit, this is how she said it to me.
• 10:07
  Alison Mello: She stayed late after our session and said, you just healed the third grade me's math trauma.
• 10:12
  Alison Mello: And like she had tears in her eyes and I was like, oh my gosh.
• 10:15
  Alison Mello: Like amazing.
• 10:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: to stop you right there.
• 10:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: We are recording this episode on International Women's Day, and I think we can all agree that it's an odd thing Alison just said of, I don't wanna take the credit for the compliment someone literally gave to me.
• 10:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I would like to, as one of the, your favorite women in your life, hand you the credit.
• 10:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: You may have the credit, it is yours.
• 10:38
  Alison Mello: I'm going to receive it because we've been working on this as friends.
• 10:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 10:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Please receive it.
• 10:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, there's a couple things I wanna bring up here because this is so powerful and I'm trying to, there's like three different things I wanna ask you.
• 10:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: The first is something you brought up, which is the idea of teachers bringing their own math trauma to the table, uh, unintentionally, obviously.
• 10:58
  Alison Mello: Right.
• 10:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think this is really important that you're, and let me make sure I'm, I'm hearing what you're saying, but you're basically like, okay, cool.
• 11:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: You've got all these teachers.
• 11:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're thinking as a leader, Hey, this other district is doing so well with this curriculum.
• 11:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know what I'll do.
• 11:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll purchase that curriculum.
• 11:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll give it to my teachers, and hopefully I'll get the same results.
• 11:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: However, the people you're handing them to.
• 11:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's a whole bunch of stuff going on.
• 11:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: One of the things that's very well documented that we know is going on is that so many teachers have their own math trauma, and anxieties around math.
• 11:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: How can handing them a new curriculum, so a new set of practices with which to teach content, how can that exacerbate their math trauma?
• 11:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, spell it out for us.
• 11:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, how can that make things worse?
• 11:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I think most leaders are very well intentioned in thinking this is gonna help, but what is the, what are they missing here?
• 11:44
  Alison Mello: Well, there's a couple of ingredients.
• 11:45
  Alison Mello: So one, is really not understanding that when you ask teachers to fo, I do a talk called Fidelity, the other F word, when you ask teachers to follow something with fidelity, it can be professionally insulting.
• 11:57
  Alison Mello: Like I don't think you have any knowledge and teachers come with master's degrees, you know, education.
• 12:03
  Alison Mello: They experience all of those things.
• 12:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wait, define fidelity for us.
• 12:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Define fidelity.
• 12:07
  Alison Mello: Fidelity means follow the script.
• 12:09
  Alison Mello: And by the way, I'm actually glad you asked for clarification because I think that word means different things to different people and different leaders.
• 12:16
  Alison Mello: But how teachers receive it, I ask teachers all the time, is that a trigger word?
• 12:20
  Alison Mello: They're like, yes, that is such a trigger word.
• 12:22
  Alison Mello: Like we hate the word fidelity and we don't wanna ever hear that word.
• 12:25
  Alison Mello: And I think it's because it offends them.
• 12:27
  Alison Mello: At the end of the day.
• 12:28
  Alison Mello: If we really lean into teachers and say, what would be helpful?
• 12:32
  Alison Mello: They want to know how to make learning more engaging.
• 12:35
  Alison Mello: They want to have more fun with their kids, and they want an outcome like, I taught it, they got it.
• 12:41
  Alison Mello: And sometimes when we start to unpack what that actually is, is, well, maybe it's because I don't actually understand the math enough to make the connections or like to use the manipulatives or the visuals or whatever.
• 12:52
  Alison Mello: I think that's where vulnerability and psychological safety are like, and I don't wanna be all technical, but in the research, oftentimes we take a technical approach to change.
• 13:02
  Alison Mello: Technical things are like, I get the new program, I hire the math coach, and I check the box, and I think I'm all set.
• 13:08
  Alison Mello: It's not that it's adaptive, and adaptive works hard, like it takes a long time.
• 13:12
  Alison Mello: We're changing teachers' mindsets.
• 13:14
  Alison Mello: We're changing their confidence about math.
• 13:16
  Alison Mello: I was terrible at math.
• 13:19
  Alison Mello: It is like Steve, uh, Steve Leinwand, a colleague of mine, he uses the term educational malpractice.
• 13:25
  Alison Mello: That was literally me when I started teaching educational malpractice.
• 13:28
  Alison Mello: And I always let teachers know that like every mistake you could make, I made it because I want them to be safe.
• 13:33
  Alison Mello: I want them to be safe to take a risk.
• 13:35
  Alison Mello: So I think sometimes, and you get this program and you're looking at this math and you're like, I have no idea.
• 13:41
  Alison Mello: I've never seen a tape diagram in my life.
• 13:43
  Alison Mello: I don't understand what is a partial quotient.
• 13:46
  Alison Mello: I, I don't understand these things, what they are, I've never seen an algebra tile.
• 13:49
  Alison Mello: That professional learning needs to be something to build teachers' capacity, not to be compliant to a program.
• 13:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 13:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 13:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: What I'm realizing right now, because as you were saying, like I, you know, I have no idea what a tape diagram looks like, da da da.
• 14:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: I started getting anxious because I, I think I've mentioned this before on the podcast, nothing gives me math anxiety, like an elementary pd, like when I go into a grade three pd and then they're like, we're gonna use the things with the beads.
• 14:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: That thing you like with a, what is that thing?
• 14:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: rec and rec or whatever, and and I'm like, fuck, I don't know how to do this.
• 14:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or we do something where we're modeling algebraic equations, but you know, with the rectangles and you're supposed to fill them in with the different amounts and
• 14:28
  Alison Mello: The area model.
• 14:29
  Alison Mello: Yeah.
• 14:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, right.
• 14:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: The area model.
• 14:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you,
• 14:31
  Alison Mello: Yeah.
• 14:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 14:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: So if I was a teacher right now in the classroom and that was in my curriculum, I would be freaking out.
• 14:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I have my own anxiety around math from past.
• 14:41
  Alison Mello: Right.
• 14:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now I'm seeing this thing and it's triggering that I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, let alone the fact that I'm a high school math teacher and this is elementary math that I don't understand.
• 14:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what am I gonna do?
• 14:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm telling you what I'm gonna do right now.
• 14:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm gonna be like, I'm just gonna teach this the way that I know.
• 14:57
  Alison Mello: A hundred, yes, exactly where I was going.
• 14:59
  Alison Mello: That's exactly right.
• 15:00
  Alison Mello: And so then they don't get the results that they're hoping to get because they're actually not using these resources in a way that changes their practice.
• 15:10
  Alison Mello: You just nailed it.
• 15:11
  Alison Mello: If I am uncomfortable, I'm gonna defer to what I know.
• 15:15
  Alison Mello: And when I start to ask questions about like, how has that worked for you?
• 15:19
  Alison Mello: Do you ever notice that kids, they seem to know it one week and they don't know it a couple weeks later or whatever.
• 15:23
  Alison Mello: Teachers are always like, yes.
• 15:25
  Alison Mello: It is the hardest thing to set a condition, to be able to really look at ourselves in the mirror and say, Ooh, maybe something I'm doing is contributing to that.
• 15:34
  Alison Mello: And I really feel strongly teachers would love a better way if it was safe to get there, if it wasn't so scary.
• 15:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and here's the thing is this is also where the discourse comes around of being like, well, we've tried to implement, like, these new practices, it's not working.
• 15:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we're gonna go back to the old way.
• 15:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's.
• 15:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Actually happened is the new ways, using air quotes of teaching, whatever are in the curriculum, those things are handed out.
• 15:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: But actually nobody ever, you, nobody ever implements them.
• 16:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: So then we have this fall, this is happening in Ontario right now, where
• 16:05
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 16:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like, they're like, but we wrote this into the curriculum and it's not happening, and therefore we should go back to basics.
• 16:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's like, yeah, you fucking wrote it into the curriculum.
• 16:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: You handed people a piece of paper, they probably never read it, or they did.
• 16:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they were like, fuck this, I'm just gonna do it my own way.
• 16:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: It never happened.
• 16:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And now your analysis is, well, it's been happening for three years,'cause it was on a piece of paper.
• 16:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like it was never happening.
• 16:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: So please do not take that as a data point that it's not working, it's not happening.
• 16:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: So there's that.
• 16:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: But then there's probably the other piece, I'm guessing, where teachers are trying to teach it in this the way it is in the curriculum, but they're not doing it in a way that is productive.
• 16:39
  Alison Mello: Well, no, if I'm trying to do it and I don't really, I'm just following a script, I'm like a robot, like that's not engaging for any kids either.
• 16:46
  Alison Mello: So everything becomes very passive.
• 16:48
  Alison Mello: They're following slides and they're like doing what they're supposed to be doing because they're rule followers, but it's not landing.
• 16:53
  Alison Mello: You're not engaging the math practices, you're not doing things to, it's, you're not adding the spice, you're not elevating it to make it taste good.
• 17:01
  Alison Mello: That's the part, I mean, I can't believe you brought up that analogy because I constantly, my teachers are always like, I know Alison, the chicken, like the program is a chicken.
• 17:08
  Alison Mello: I'm like, right.
• 17:09
  Alison Mello: What are the spices that you're bringing to make it taste better?
• 17:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: funny'cause Alison I know has a, a bit of like an interesting diet in that there are things she really loves and one of them is chicken.
• 17:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: You love chicken, you eat
• 17:22
  Alison Mello: I do love chicken, so that's what I, I always tell them, I'm like, we're making chicken cacciatore.
• 17:26
  Alison Mello: This is literally my analogy I do with teachers.
• 17:28
  Alison Mello: We're making a chicken cacciatore.
• 17:29
  Alison Mello: And the main ingredient is what?
• 17:31
  Alison Mello: And they're like chicken, great.
• 17:33
  Alison Mello: But everyone else is gonna put different things.
• 17:34
  Alison Mello: People are gonna put peppers, people are gonna put onions, they're gonna have different types of sauce and different types of spices.
• 17:39
  Alison Mello: That's the work I do with teachers is like, let's make it spicy.
• 17:42
  Alison Mello: Let's have some fun.
• 17:43
  Alison Mello: Like how are you gonna take this and make it better?
• 17:45
  Alison Mello: Yeah.
• 17:45
  Alison Mello: And when they start to have aha moments about the math, they're like, they start to get mad.
• 17:49
  Alison Mello: Like, how come I didn't learn this way?
• 17:51
  Alison Mello: I'm like, me too.
• 17:52
  Alison Mello: I am mad that I did not learn this the way that I could understand it.
• 17:57
  Alison Mello: I never knew these things were connected.
• 17:58
  Alison Mello: It's like such an epiphany.
• 17:59
  Alison Mello: And here's the thing that you touched on.
• 18:02
  Alison Mello: The teachers have these programs and maybe, or maybe not, they're using them or whatever.
• 18:06
  Alison Mello: It doesn't even really matter because I've seen repeatedly since I started consulting full time teachers get a math program literally this year, and we, we work on it and then next year they get a new literacy program.
• 18:19
  Alison Mello: It happens.
• 18:20
  Alison Mello: I can't tell you how many times it's happened.
• 18:21
  Alison Mello: I can't even count.
• 18:22
  Alison Mello: And it's like, when do they get to practice and get good at something before their attention is turned over here?
• 18:27
  Alison Mello: So that's like another thing on my three thing list is like, do we give teachers the time?
• 18:31
  Alison Mello: Do we give them time to like work together with their colleagues?
• 18:34
  Alison Mello: Do we give them time to work vertically with so they know where the math is going and where the math came from and like make it all connected?
• 18:39
  Alison Mello: Like we don't give them time for that.
• 18:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so we're gonna get to that in one second.
• 18:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: But first I wanna ask for those listening who are like, oh my God, okay, like, we've got the chicken.
• 18:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do I add the spice?
• 18:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, can we give, can we give our listeners a couple of options of how to add the spice?
• 18:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like a leader's listening right now, they're like, fuck, I think this is what's happening to me.
• 19:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I have this curriculum, but it's just, it's not happening.
• 19:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: What can they do?
• 19:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if a teacher is listening and that teacher is like, well, I want the spice, how do I get my leader to add the spice?
• 19:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: What can they do?
• 19:12
  Alison Mello: Oh my God.
• 19:12
  Alison Mello: Okay, again, easy recipe here.
• 19:14
  Alison Mello: Number one.
• 19:16
  Alison Mello: When we're doing professional learning, which is really centered around pedagogy, content, not program per se, it can be, it can be meshed, but it's sort of separate.
• 19:26
  Alison Mello: The leaders need to be with us in the room and they need to be as vulnerable as we're asking teachers to be, which is really hard.
• 19:32
  Alison Mello: Because guess what?
• 19:33
  Alison Mello: They might have their own math trauma too.
• 19:34
  Alison Mello: They might have some stuff in their backpack that needs to be unpacked.
• 19:37
  Alison Mello: So that's number one is we all need to be together doing the math.
• 19:40
  Alison Mello: The leaders who I've worked with who have done that, phenomenal results.
• 19:44
  Alison Mello: Number two, that's gonna relate to what they do on walkthroughs.
• 19:47
  Alison Mello: I'm not just looking for like the learning target on the board and like if I don't see that, then I ding you on the lesson, that's a gotcha.
• 19:54
  Alison Mello: If I'm working with a group of teachers and telling them what the spice could be, here's the spice.
• 19:58
  Alison Mello: The spice could be if you're going to say something and, and you're gonna tell kids, change it to a form of a question.
• 20:04
  Alison Mello: If you see something that could potentially be hands-on, and even if the program's not making it hands-on, make it hands-on.
• 20:11
  Alison Mello: You don't have manipulatives.
• 20:12
  Alison Mello: Act it out.
• 20:13
  Alison Mello: Use candy.
• 20:14
  Alison Mello: Use anything that you have.
• 20:16
  Alison Mello: You know what I mean?
• 20:16
  Alison Mello: Like just to make it like a multisensory experience and make it more engaging, change the context, all those types of things.
• 20:23
  Alison Mello: If I'm a leader and I come in and I see all that stuff.
• 20:26
  Alison Mello: And it doesn't look like my, it doesn't look like I can't see the chicken as easily'cause it's buried by all the spices.
• 20:32
  Alison Mello: I might, it might turn into a gotcha.
• 20:35
  Alison Mello: So like they have to be there to say, this is what, who are you hiring to do your professional learning here?
• 20:40
  Alison Mello: And do you value them?
• 20:41
  Alison Mello: And are your, is your staff gonna trust them enough to really do learning?
• 20:46
  Alison Mello: And then if this person like me tells them, use manipulatives, do this, do that, and then their administrator comes in and dings them for it, they're getting a mixed message.
• 20:55
  Alison Mello: So like, teachers are afraid sometimes to add the spice because they're like, Ooh, my, my principal's gonna come in and like, they're not gonna see this and it's gonna be a problem.
• 21:02
  Alison Mello: So sometimes we thwart the progress ourselves, not even realizing it as leaders.
• 21:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm reminded of a couple of things The first is, in a way you're kind of like, it's not only the teachers that end up inadvertently with a recipe card and no way to ex, you know, no sort of develop like training on how to execute it.
• 21:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sometimes it's the leaders that are using the recipe card as an assessment tool, almost.
• 21:25
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 21:26
  Alison Mello: Bingo.
• 21:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 21:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's like for the leaders to know none of us here should be living and dying by this recipe card.
• 21:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: They need to be in the room when the training is happening so they can hear someone saying, yes, here's the chicken.
• 21:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry, this is it.
• 21:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is it.
• 21:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: This chicken thing has really made it like, I am also really hungry now.
• 21:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 21:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm like, you know, they need to be in the room so everyone understands what the chicken is.
• 21:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Everyone understands what the spice is, and everyone understands that just because the chicken is spicy doesn't mean it's not chicken anymore.
• 21:54
  Alison Mello: Exactly.
• 21:56
  Alison Mello: Oh my gosh, you nailed it.
• 21:57
  Alison Mello: Because I feel like I'm like, tell them what the must dos are and what the may dos are and what the success criteria looks like and do we all agree?
• 22:04
  Alison Mello: We make like common agreements about it.
• 22:06
  Alison Mello: And when you create that environment, people can be safe to say, you gave me this recipe, but I have to tell you, I'm on Worst Cooks in America.
• 22:14
  Alison Mello: Like I don't know how to cook.
• 22:15
  Alison Mello: Like if they can be safe to say that, then we can really start the real work with them.
• 22:21
  Alison Mello: It's gonna endure.
• 22:22
  Alison Mello: It's gonna be awesome.
• 22:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love this.
• 22:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I have to also say, as a business owner, like, you know, I own a tutoring center.
• 22:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have been so guilty of doing this as a leader.
• 22:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like where I'm like, well, I sent them the email with all the points on how to respond to a student inquiry, and then I'll see an email that someone has sent to a student and I'll be like.
• 22:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: What the fuck?
• 22:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like that's not like, well, what has happened is they followed my recipe, but there's like no personality in it, or like, it sounds really cold, but they theoretically, technically followed the rules of how to respond to a student.
• 22:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's my fault because I haven't coached them.
• 22:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I haven't guided them, I haven't done walkthroughs with them.
• 22:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: I haven't been like, here, watch me do it.
• 23:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I haven't done any of those things.
• 23:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I think that's why I'm like, this really does apply to any type of leader.
• 23:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, it's like, yes, we can send out the emails and the newsletters and give them the employee handbook or whatever, but like, if you're not there with them on the day to day and you're not like helping giving them that development, it, it falls flat.
• 23:19
  Alison Mello: Totally flat.
• 23:20
  Alison Mello: It's the difference between compliance and engagement.
• 23:22
  Alison Mello: Like I can be compliant and do everything you said, but if I'm engaged, I'm gonna bring myself to it.
• 23:27
  Alison Mello: But here's the real question.
• 23:28
  Alison Mello: Do teachers feel that there's room for that at the table?
• 23:31
  Alison Mello: Because if it's set up as like a strict fidelity thing, then there is no room.
• 23:35
  Alison Mello: So one of the things I really love that again, I don't see often is like.
• 23:39
  Alison Mello: Do we establish feedback loops for teachers?
• 23:42
  Alison Mello: Is there a spot for them to share their feedback about how this is going?
• 23:45
  Alison Mello: Their questions, their challenges, their successes?
• 23:49
  Alison Mello: Do we celebrate with them all?
• 23:50
  Alison Mello: Like, to me, the joy can go out of the work so easily right now in education, in any, in any field, truly.
• 23:57
  Alison Mello: But like there's, there's so many things on people's plates.
• 24:00
  Alison Mello: Do we ever stop and celebrate?
• 24:01
  Alison Mello: Like, oh my gosh, this was awesome.
• 24:03
  Alison Mello: And then can I say, by the way, I also struggled with this, and maybe you're the teacher across the hall and you're gonna be like, I didn't struggle with that.
• 24:09
  Alison Mello: I did this.
• 24:10
  Alison Mello: And then we all learn from each other.
• 24:11
  Alison Mello: Do we create those conditions for them to actually have that and do that?
• 24:14
  Alison Mello: And often the answer is no.
• 24:16
  Alison Mello: Like, teachers will give feedback, nothing will happen, and guess what's gonna happen if you keep doing that?
• 24:21
  Alison Mello: They're not gonna give you their feedback anymore.
• 24:22
  Alison Mello: They're gonna close their door, they're gonna go back to doing whatever they did before.
• 24:26
  Alison Mello: Like, you know, um, I don't know if you know that the shortcut for the division algorithm does McDonald's sell cheeseburgers?
• 24:31
  Alison Mello: They're gonna do like these things that they know because they don't get partial quotient.
• 24:34
  Alison Mello: I know.
• 24:34
  Alison Mello: Sorry, I shouldn't have gone there, but we're on a food kick.
• 24:36
  Alison Mello: Um, it's like a
• 24:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: is point number two though, right?
• 24:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is our second thing, by the way.
• 24:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: we're, we're so in it, but I didn't wanna interrupt you, but this is number two.
• 24:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 24:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: So number one, just to synthesize like what would we call our number one point?
• 24:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's the idea of you can't adopt a new program and expect everything to be solved without an implementation plan.
• 24:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you think that's a good.
• 24:59
  Alison Mello: I think that covers it, and also respecting that teachers are coming to this in different places, so we have to think about getting beyond the pd, which is the program adoption to the PL that they actually need so they can become better teachers of math and feel better about math themselves.
• 25:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 25:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: So beyond adoption and into like learning,
• 25:18
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 25:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: if we're
• 25:20
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 25:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: versus just because we're using a lot of acronyms, I just wanna like,
• 25:22
  Alison Mello: Professional development versus professional learning.
• 25:25
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 25:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 25:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 25:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sick.
• 25:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: So number two, establishing a feedback loop.
• 25:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: You've just
• 25:30
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 25:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I wanna unpack a bit because I think this is so important.
• 25:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Your last statement rang so true to me.
• 25:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you are asking for feedback, okay, be a feedback loop is great.
• 25:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you know why it's great?
• 25:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because it's called a loop.
• 25:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: And a loop.
• 25:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: A loop means not just feedback, goes one way and dies there.
• 25:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: It means somebody responds to the feedback and takes it.
• 25:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's a difference between being open to feedback and being like responsive to feedback.
• 25:59
  Alison Mello: Yes,
• 25:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like you can't just be like, yes, yes, I hear you and do nothing about it.
• 26:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like, I think what you're kind of saying here is there has to be a feedback loop where teachers need to, number one, be given positive and negative feedback.
• 26:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: It can't just be one or the other.
• 26:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: It can't just be like, you're doing everything great and here's nothing for improvement.
• 26:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: It can't just be, here are all the things you're doing wrong.
• 26:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then also teachers need to be able to get feedback and get a response.
• 26:23
  Alison Mello: I think when leaders are at the table and they're giving feedback, they have a lot more street cred with teachers because they were actually in the room and know what they should be giving feedback on.
• 26:32
  Alison Mello: So like I create common look fors with leaders all the time.
• 26:35
  Alison Mello: But what I was actually talking about is when teachers have a trainer come in or a program, whatever.
• 26:43
  Alison Mello: Do they get to give feedback and does that feedback then inform the next things that happen?
• 26:47
  Alison Mello: So I'll give you an example.
• 26:48
  Alison Mello: I was in a district last week and I was talking to them, I've never met them before, and I'm not sure that everyone was entirely excited about it because they've had other experiences that they didn't love.
• 26:58
  Alison Mello: And I was really grateful that it went really well and they were excited about it.
• 27:02
  Alison Mello: So I told each level as they left, next time I come, I want you to place your order.
• 27:06
  Alison Mello: That's what I tell them all the time, place your order.
• 27:08
  Alison Mello: What do you need?
• 27:10
  Alison Mello: Because I think teachers don't often get that voice to say, well, this is like maybe what second grade needs is very different from what eighth grade needs or what high school needs.
• 27:17
  Alison Mello: And so that's actually point 3, is how do we differentiate PD to give people what they need?
• 27:23
  Alison Mello: We ask teachers to do that every single day.
• 27:25
  Alison Mello: We have things called WIN blocks.
• 27:27
  Alison Mello: What I Need.
• 27:28
  Alison Mello: Well, do we give teachers what they need?
• 27:31
  Alison Mello: Not often.
• 27:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we're gonna get to that in a second.
• 27:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so TANC because my last guest, AKA, your colleague Steve Leinwand, went on a whole tear about differentiation.
• 27:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: So this is perfect,
• 27:41
  Alison Mello: really?
• 27:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: but I actually wanna ask you about this because I'm working with a district right now, and I feel like that's exactly it.
• 27:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, I want you to give me feedback so I can deliver what you need.
• 27:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 27:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I, I do think that's really, really important.
• 27:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think this goes back to your earlier comment of being like, a lot of educators feel like PD is done.
• 28:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: To them instead of for them, because you come in and you talk about this thing and they're like, what the fuck?
• 28:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what I really need help with is my student is struggling and like, what?
• 28:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you know, whatever.
• 28:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like they're experiencing crazy anxiety and I'm here doing this PD about manipulatives and I really need to talk about this other thing or whatever.
• 28:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: My question is, is I keep asking for feedback.
• 28:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: I gave like them an anonymous feedback form,'cause I'm seeing them, I'm seeing them regularly.
• 28:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't get a single thing.
• 28:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is going what, what do I do?
• 28:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like there is no feedback I'm getting, even though I'm trying to ask for it in all these different ways.
• 28:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think I'm creating a safe environment.
• 28:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe I'm not, like, what can I do there?
• 28:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I think there might be some people listening who are like, I do, the floor is open for feedback, but I'm not getting any.
• 28:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: What can we do?
• 28:40
  Alison Mello: You have to acknowledge and realize and wonder what has happened to these people before you came into the picture.
• 28:46
  Alison Mello: Have they given feedback in the past and it has gone nowhere?
• 28:49
  Alison Mello: Have they already made their decision about what it means to give feedback and what it actually translates to.
• 28:54
  Alison Mello: If the feedback in your case is, is funneling through their leadership and they know their leadership doesn't do anything with it, then that's going to impact the way that they give you feedback.
• 29:03
  Alison Mello: It just does.
• 29:03
  Alison Mello: It's not fair, but it does.
• 29:05
  Alison Mello: I started to be very prepared when I go places because I had an experience where I got there and I started doing my, my thing that I planned and they were like.
• 29:13
  Alison Mello: They were so sweet to tell me that like, this is not what we thought we were getting.
• 29:16
  Alison Mello: And I was like, well, what did you think you were getting?
• 29:17
  Alison Mello: And we just changed it on the fly because I really wanted them to leave feeling, teachers wanna be seen and heard and valued.
• 29:23
  Alison Mello: Like it just comes down to that.
• 29:25
  Alison Mello: And they deserve that.
• 29:26
  Alison Mello: They work really hard.
• 29:27
  Alison Mello: And so if you can give them that in any small way and in the work that you are doing in particular, then I'm sure that they're gonna be comfortable enough to tell you, even if they're not putting it in a form.
• 29:37
  Alison Mello: And I bet they would tell you if you got them on a call, they'd be like, okay, this is what we really need to do.
• 29:41
  Alison Mello: But sometimes those forms don't feel safe.
• 29:43
  Alison Mello: They don't know who's gonna look at it.
• 29:44
  Alison Mello: Is it gonna come back at them?
• 29:46
  Alison Mello: Is it gonna be conceived as they're, um, like perceived as they're complaining or it's a judgment or whatever.
• 29:50
  Alison Mello: So a lot of times people don't, they ask me repeatedly, is this truly confidential?
• 29:54
  Alison Mello: Is this truly anonymous?
• 29:56
  Alison Mello: Like if I say something, is it gonna come back at me?
• 29:57
  Alison Mello: So it could be that, I don't know, but it could be.
• 30:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, that's actually a really good tip.
• 30:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'cause as you're saying that, I'm like, oh my God.
• 30:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, it's like how I feel like when sometimes I'll leave you a voice note and I'll be like, I'm voice noting this'cause I can't text it.
• 30:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Even though I trust you a million percent, but I'm like, should this get screenshotted or sent somewhere?
• 30:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know what I mean?
• 30:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I wonder if it is that it is a form and they're like, what if somebody else sees it?
• 30:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that is a really, really good point because, you know, and I've done this, there have been many schools I've done this with where the, the group of educators I'm working with have been like just FYI like, if there's any way we could have an admin free session, we would love that'cause a lot of us are feeling freaked out, like a, you know, for a whole range of reasons.
• 30:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like it might just be a bad experience.
• 30:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: It might be because they're scared because their school is in a weird place and like there's job scarcity, whatever it is.
• 30:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I have found, and like maybe this is something else for leaders to just hear that, in my experience, educators never want that because they want to slack off or like talk shit or something.
• 30:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: They just want to feel like they can bring their whole selves and so much more I find gets done.
• 31:04
  Alison Mello: A hundred percent.
• 31:05
  Alison Mello: And it's, so I'm really gonna give you this whole, I'm gonna contradict myself here because when the leaders are in the room, sometimes you get a different response, but the leaders need to be in the room.
• 31:15
  Alison Mello: So it really, what that all comes down to is relationships.
• 31:18
  Alison Mello: So I'll give you an example from a district I'm in right now.
• 31:20
  Alison Mello: They have a brand new principal.
• 31:21
  Alison Mello: They love this principal.
• 31:22
  Alison Mello: When she wasn't in the room, they were talking to me about how great she was.
• 31:26
  Alison Mello: When she came in the room, their demeanor changed.
• 31:28
  Alison Mello: They don't know her well enough yet to feel safe.
• 31:30
  Alison Mello: I think she's gonna be great and not gonna judge them, but they don't know that yet.
• 31:33
  Alison Mello: So they're too afraid.
• 31:34
  Alison Mello: It's Brene Brown, like the vulnerability, it's a scary thing to be vulnerable.
• 31:38
  Alison Mello: So the anecdote to that leaders is come in and be vulnerable yourself.
• 31:43
  Alison Mello: Talk about your own.
• 31:44
  Alison Mello: I I am self-deprecating at every turn.
• 31:47
  Alison Mello: Right?
• 31:47
  Alison Mello: Here's where I suck at this.
• 31:48
  Alison Mello: I suck.
• 31:49
  Alison Mello: And I try to give them validation.
• 31:51
  Alison Mello: I'm sure you do this, but I didn't.
• 31:53
  Alison Mello: I was today years old when I learned this.
• 31:54
  Alison Mello: Even if that's not exactly true, it creates this comfort zone for everyone that's so important so that they can take a risk.
• 32:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: What a beautiful little antidote to the whole thing to be like, well, you gotta be, we do want you in the room, but we need you to be in the room in a way that makes everyone feel safe.
• 32:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: And guess what, Alison, this is the coolest thing.
• 32:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: What have we been telling teachers for the past, like two, three years?
• 32:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Model mistake making in front of your students, right.
• 32:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're like, make a mistake in front of your students, even if it's not a real mistake.
• 32:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like just fudge like making a mistake, messing up some calculation so they can see it's normal to make mistakes.
• 32:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: They can see your vulnerability so they can be vulnerable.
• 32:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And now we're just climbing that up the ladder and asking leaders to do the same thing.
• 32:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, we're so fucking smart.
• 32:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay you mentioned your third point and I wanna at least talk about it.
• 32:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 32:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we've done point number one.
• 32:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which was the idea of implementing a program is not the same as just handing somebody a program.
• 32:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's like a bunch around it from, you know, in, from conception to the actual learning.
• 32:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Point number two was about establishing a feedback loop, and point number three was.
• 32:58
  Alison Mello: Differentiating for the people in front of you, allowing them to self differentiate and then planning intentionally to differentiate.
• 33:04
  Alison Mello: So, agency is something, as humans, we need.
• 33:08
  Alison Mello: We need to feel like we have skin in the game.
• 33:10
  Alison Mello: If you've ever had a little kid in your life and they're like, I don't wanna wear socks, you're like, no, no, you're gonna wear socks.
• 33:16
  Alison Mello: Do you wanna wear red socks, blue socks, white socks, whatever.
• 33:19
  Alison Mello: But you're gonna wear socks.
• 33:20
  Alison Mello: They just have some sense of they have skin in the game.
• 33:22
  Alison Mello: And that goes back to the fidelity.
• 33:24
  Alison Mello: If I just have to do this and there's nothing for me to add and there's nothing for me to select, then I don't feel great about it.
• 33:30
  Alison Mello: So when we have professional learning opportunities, like I'm a big fan of conference style, and I actually made my own conference just to do this because I really want learning to be joyful.
• 33:39
  Alison Mello: But even in like districts on a small scale, creating opportunities where, okay, this is the session everybody has to do, and communicating that as leaders.
• 33:47
  Alison Mello: Why, why do we have to do it?
• 33:48
  Alison Mello: We've identified this in the data, or you've identified this in your feedback loop, or you shared it in a survey or whatever.
• 33:54
  Alison Mello: So this is something that we want everybody to have.
• 33:56
  Alison Mello: It's the must have.
• 33:57
  Alison Mello: Then there's may do things just like we do with kids, and you can pick what you need based on where you are on your learning journey.
• 34:04
  Alison Mello: And we're not gonna compare because comparison is the thief of joy.
• 34:07
  Alison Mello: You are on your own journey.
• 34:09
  Alison Mello: So you and I might have to split up when we make a choice because guess what?
• 34:12
  Alison Mello: I need this and you need that and that's okay.
• 34:14
  Alison Mello: We'll talk about it later.
• 34:15
  Alison Mello: Like that's the easiest way to get there in my book.
• 34:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 34:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so a couple things I wanna say back to that sock analogy.
• 34:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: There is so much research around trauma informed learning right now that shows for kids with any sort of, you know, off-task behavior or kids who are coming into the classroom with an unmet need, which so many kids are, whether their needs within our purview or like, they're literally hungry, they haven't gotten enough sleep, whatever.
• 34:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: One of the things that can be so effective is the idea of giving them choice.
• 34:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, we're calling it differentiation, but it's just that you gotta wear socks or you gotta come to this pd, but you can pick what socks you wear, right?
• 34:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can pick which sessions you go to.
• 34:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: And there's so much that shows, even in a math classroom, for example, like, fine, we're gonna, you know, you're here, you're in the math classroom, we're gonna learn math, we're gonna do this problem.
• 35:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: But even if you give kids a, you can do this problem with a friend, you can do it alone.
• 35:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can sit it, you can do it sitting down, you can do it standing up.
• 35:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can do it in the hallway, you can do it at the carpet.
• 35:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: All of a sudden it actually changes the energy around it because kids feel like, I love how you put it, like they have skin in the game, like they're being seen and heard.
• 35:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And this is the exact same for teachers.
• 35:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, I was thinking, I did a keynote the other day and there were some very interesting behaviors in my keynote.
• 35:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: There were educators that walked in and saw that an activity was gonna happen and stormed outta the room because they didn't wanna do an activity.
• 35:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: There were educators who came in and they sat at the very, very, very back and they were on their phones there entire time.
• 35:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: There were educators who came in, clearly did not necessarily want to be there.
• 35:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, I actually asked them, I asked them, I was like, guys, I, I'm curious how many of you are here?
• 35:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just'cause like you have to be here?
• 35:57
  Alison Mello: Voluntold, yes.
• 35:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, you have to be at this conference, and you thought to yourself like, this keynote is in the biggest room possible.
• 36:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: So if I go into this big room, I can hide in the back.
• 36:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: And hands went up I
• 36:10
  Alison Mello: Are honest.
• 36:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: I loved it.
• 36:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, fuck yeah.
• 36:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I said, how many of you are here?
• 36:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because you didn't wanna go to any of the sessions and this looked like the least bad session hands went up, you know?
• 36:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's interesting because, I think you said this to me on a call, like we're adults are students, we're all learners.
• 36:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're just bigger learners than the smaller, younger learners.
• 36:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 36:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: We all have these same tendencies.
• 36:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: We all have the need to be seen and heard.
• 36:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: We all have this need for agency.
• 36:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like all of it is the same.
• 36:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I think a, a really interesting thing, or like almost like a big takeaway that I'm taking right now is, if you want your students to do something, if we are told that something is good for students, if there's something you're trying to get teachers to do with their students, ask yourself, is this something I could be doing for my teachers?
• 36:55
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 36:56
  Alison Mello: My phrase is walk your talk.
• 37:00
  Alison Mello: If you say that things should be differentiated, then differentiate.
• 37:03
  Alison Mello: If you say that sessions should involve discourse, then let people talk.
• 37:07
  Alison Mello: If you say, you know what, you should give kids agency and trust them to make choices, then we have to do the same with teachers.
• 37:12
  Alison Mello: They deserve that.
• 37:13
  Alison Mello: You know, and if you are worried like, Ooh, I'm not sure I can trust them, I don't know, then build their capacity.
• 37:19
  Alison Mello: Because if you build their capacity, then they'll be able to make those really great decisions.
• 37:23
  Alison Mello: Uh, teachers tell me all the time when they feel like they have a choice, they feel seen and respected as professionals, and oftentimes that has deteriorated in education for whatever reason.
• 37:34
  Alison Mello: Initiative overload, whatever it is.
• 37:36
  Alison Mello: And I kind of liken it to the difference between, and we've talked about this before in many calls, motivation versus inspiration.
• 37:42
  Alison Mello: Motivation, when you actually research it, like I can motivate you by giving, knowing you're gonna get a bad grade or you're gonna lose your job.
• 37:48
  Alison Mello: Like there's not all posi, motivation feels like it might be positive, it's not always positive.
• 37:53
  Alison Mello: Inspiration, on the other hand, when you're inspired to do something, it, you'll stay up till three in the morning.
• 37:59
  Alison Mello: You'll do whatever it takes because you wanna do it'cause it's for you.
• 38:02
  Alison Mello: I think we need to get back into the inspiration business.
• 38:04
  Alison Mello: I think we have an inspiration gap with teachers and if we can inspire them by giving them these opportunities, it's gonna change everything.
• 38:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, this is the perfect little segue into your incredible fucking conference that I will be speaking at called Get Your Workshop On.
• 38:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Guys.
• 38:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's happening the whole point is to inspire teachers.
• 38:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you want me to talk about how great it is or do you wanna talk about how great it's
• 38:28
  Alison Mello: Oh, you can, I'd love to hear what, what your perception of it is.
• 38:32
  Alison Mello: Yes, please tell me.
• 38:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sometimes it's nice to have someone else just boost you.
• 38:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: So guys, Alison is having this conference every single year.
• 38:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: She has a theme.
• 38:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is my first year actually being initiated into this world.
• 38:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: And the theme is Christmas in fucking Summertime.
• 38:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 38:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: David face.
• 38:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's right.
• 38:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: So all of the talks are like themed for the holiday.
• 38:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: She's gonna have hot chocolate.
• 38:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's like a gingerbread land.
• 38:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't even know.
• 38:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: It sounds actually chaotic and amazing.
• 38:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, we, the whole thing is, professional development for teachers.
• 39:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm doing one of the keynotes.
• 39:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: It will be about redefining failure and success, but there will be a holiday rom-com spin on it.
• 39:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: I cannot even wait to tell you what the outfits are gonna be,'cause I don't even know.
• 39:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: But like, it's just a whole vibe.
• 39:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's professional development where there will be lots of learning, but there's gonna be so much teacher appreciation and like fun stuff going on.
• 39:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: The whole vibe of it is inspiration.
• 39:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we all know sometimes you go to professional development and you're like, wow, I'm being told session after session about all the things I'm doing wrong
• 39:31
  Alison Mello: Exactly.
• 39:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Huh.
• 39:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 39:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: So did I, did I get it?
• 39:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there, I mean, now you like jump in with the actual facts because I just like yelled a lot, but I'm
• 39:38
  Alison Mello: No, that's what I'm going for is that vibe.
• 39:41
  Alison Mello: First of all, it's a day in the summer, and so knowing that teachers have come year after year and are willing to give up a day is amazing.
• 39:49
  Alison Mello: Second, it is high quality professional learning wrapped in teacher appreciation.
• 39:55
  Alison Mello: Greeted by a red carpet, when they arrive.
• 39:57
  Alison Mello: Guess what?
• 39:58
  Alison Mello: They can get a drink anytime they want.
• 39:59
  Alison Mello: They can go to the bathroom anytime they want.
• 40:01
  Alison Mello: They can pick a session to go have a massage and some shopping because it's a small part of their day to do their SEL needs, like take care of themselves.
• 40:09
  Alison Mello: But in between, they are choosing the sessions that meet them and they're banded.
• 40:15
  Alison Mello: Pre-K, K, um, K to two, three to five, six to eight, so they can really hone in and get what they need.
• 40:20
  Alison Mello: And I just have to tell you my keynote because since you talked about your keynote, my keynote is called Move Over Elf on the Shelf: Teachers Bring the Real Magic.
• 40:30
  Alison Mello: Because that is, it doesn't matter.
• 40:32
  Alison Mello: Like yes, you have your program, but it's you, you are the difference maker, right?
• 40:36
  Alison Mello: You do the thing.
• 40:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are the spice! The elf is just the chicken.
• 40:41
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 40:41
  Alison Mello: Oh my gosh.
• 40:42
  Alison Mello: High five through the screen here.
• 40:44
  Alison Mello: Thank you for bringing it back to the spice.
• 40:46
  Alison Mello: I love everything about that, so I'm really pumped about it.
• 40:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's almost sold out also, so if you're listening, you need to go register.
• 40:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do people do that?
• 40:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell them really quick before we wrap up.
• 40:56
  Alison Mello: The website is called Get Your Workshop On and you can register now.
• 41:01
  Alison Mello: Actually, the early bird pricing closes.
• 41:03
  Alison Mello: I don't know when this will drop this episode, but it, it closes March 31st, but then there's regular, but you're right, the spots might be gone by then.
• 41:10
  Alison Mello: 'cause we have a lot of unbelievable speakers, some of whom are like you, and like everybody knows, and others who are in the classroom practicing and taking a huge risk to put themselves out there and share their brilliance.
• 41:20
  Alison Mello: Which is actually why I love having this platform to get their voices out there.
• 41:24
  Alison Mello: So thank you for letting me share that.
• 41:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Honestly, you are so incredible.
• 41:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you for everything you shared.
• 41:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's so much I'm thinking about, like everything you said is so applicable to education, but again, so applicable to life, to all the ways we lead to anyone.
• 41:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like just, anyone, everyone everywhere.
• 41:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I have to stop rambling now, so I'm gonna ask you the final two questions.
• 41:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: You have 60 seconds to answer.
• 41:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you ready?
• 41:46
  Alison Mello: Ready, bring it.
• 41:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number, if you could like wave a magic wand and one thing changed about the way math is taught in school as what would it be?
• 41:54
  Alison Mello: That everybody found the beauty and joy in it through the experiences that they have.
• 42:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, that's so nice Alison
• 42:02
  Alison Mello: want people to leave saying, wow, that was really cool and it's fun and it's joyful.
• 42:06
  Alison Mello: Yeah, because people used to say that to me, math is beautiful, and I'd be like, what math are you doing?
• 42:10
  Alison Mello: I've never seen any beauty in math.
• 42:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 42:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Question number two.
• 42:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Someone's listening to this, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 42:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I get that people bring their trauma to PD and like that might be why I'm not into this or whatever, but I honestly think, Alison, that I'm just not a math person.
• 42:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's your response?
• 42:26
  Alison Mello: Oh, I really want them to think about anytime they've learned anything in their entire life, in any realm, it doesn't have to be school.
• 42:32
  Alison Mello: What was it about the experience that made it so good for them and it's, nine times outta 10, it's gonna come down to the person.
• 42:41
  Alison Mello: So just because you had a bad experience with one math teacher or one math classroom, or one way of learning math, it doesn't mean you're not a math person.
• 42:49
  Alison Mello: I always tell teachers, you know how like custodians have a lot of keys on their key ring?
• 42:53
  Alison Mello: That's how we are as teachers.
• 42:54
  Alison Mello: We have all these keys and our job is to figure out how to unlock each student and they don't all unlock with the same key.
• 43:01
  Alison Mello: So like, we need to just figure that out.
• 43:03
  Alison Mello: And so you might not have found the way to unlock your brilliance yet.
• 43:06
  Alison Mello: That's all.
• 43:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 43:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: The only thing that could have made that better is if you had, if somehow that tied into cooking a chicken.
• 43:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: But honestly, I'll take it.
• 43:14
  Alison Mello: You're right.
• 43:15
  Alison Mello: I should have gone back to the chicken analogy.
• 43:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have a lot of spices.
• 43:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: No,
• 43:20
  Alison Mello: we, well, you know what?
• 43:22
  Alison Mello: It could be that the teachers you had made you a meal that you didn't really like the taste of.
• 43:27
  Alison Mello: And so you have to find the other teachers who are gonna add the right spices to make it be your favorite meal you've ever had in your life.
• 43:34
  Alison Mello: And I've had teachers say that to, I like math now.
• 43:36
  Alison Mello: I didn't know I like math.
• 43:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, and I'll take it one step further, that as an educator or leader you have all sorts of condiments and options to make this chicken dish, but all of your learners have different dietary requirements and different preferences.
• 43:52
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 43:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're done.
• 43:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're
• 43:53
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 43:54
  Alison Mello: Oh my gosh.
• 43:55
  Alison Mello: Drop the mic.
• 43:56
  Alison Mello: Yes, we are done.
• 43:57
  Alison Mello: We are done.
• 43:58
  Alison Mello: That was amazing.
• 43:59
  Alison Mello: Yes.
• 43:59
  Alison Mello: Thank you.
• 43:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye.
• 44:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll call you later.
• 44:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll
• 44:01
  Alison Mello: David.
• 44:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: note in a second.
• 44:03
  Alison Mello: Okay.
• 44:03
  Alison Mello: Bye bye.
• 44:03
  Alison Mello: Bye.
• 44:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know you're now as obsessed with Allison as I am, but back off she is mine.
• 44:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: JKJK.
• 44:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually want everyone to benefit from her incredible wisdom because it is rare to meet someone who will actually tell it like it is, but do so in a caring solution forward way.
• 44:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: She's truly one of a kind.
• 44:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: As always, I want to hear from you, so tell me what did you think of today's conversation.
• 44:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can now not only text the podcast, but we can actually respond to you.
• 44:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: So hit the text us link in your show notes to make that happen.
• 44:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I know there's someone in your life that came to mind during this conversation, so please, please share this episode with them too.
• 44:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Also, guys, Math Therapy now has a Facebook group started by two Michigan teachers, Karen Leno and Ryan Zibo, and it is popping off with good vibes, strategy sharing, and so much more.
• 44:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: So you should join, all you have to do is type Math Therapy into your Facebook search bar and request to join, and we will let you in.
• 45:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: A reminder that Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, produced by David Kochberg, and the music you're hearing right now is by our band goodnight Sunrise.
• 45:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Look us up, give us a follow stream us on Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you get your music.
• 45:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're there.
• 45:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're everywhere.
• 45:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just hit play.
• 45:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And once again, thank you guys so much for being here.
• 45:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll see you next week.
• 45:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Same day, same channel.