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SMNTY Classics: Black Swan and the Horror of Perfectionism · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and smitha and what come stuff?
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I never told you a production of iHeart Radio and
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: welcome to another classic. For this one, before we get
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: into it, I remember somebody called in about it and
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: said I should have given a content warning for disordered eating.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to put that here now. One of
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: the reasons that this episode, which is about black Swan
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: and perfectionism, was on our mind was after our conversation
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: about things like ozempic, feeling that pressure to be quote
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: perfect in the way society tells you you are supposed
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: to be, and when that's harmful for you. I have
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: to say, after we did that episode about ozampic and
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: we go v and that kind of stuff, I was
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: hanging out with two people who have taken them uh,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: and I'll just say.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: It didn't go well.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's everybody's experience, but I just thought
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: it was interesting after we had that conversation.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: Not doing well with it.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: It didn't. Yeah, it didn't go well.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: Are they still on it though? One of the news.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, here you are, no, and I'm I'm here spilling
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: their business on the podcast.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: So I'm worse. No, no, no, no, I.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: Think it's interesting.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: These are the conversations that we need to have because
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: we don't know, Yeah, the effects. No one's really studying
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: that and coming with the full conversation because we don't
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: have enough information. So these are personal experiences. Are some
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: things that we should know honestly.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I'm sure, as we said, we
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: need to come back and do a whole episode on that,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: but it is a huge topic and it is ongoing.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: We'll do that in the future, but for now, please
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: enjoy this classic episode.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Hey, this is Annie an smitha.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to stuff I've ever told you a
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: production of IHET Radio. So it are continued really unplanned
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: streak of horror movies that involve dancing.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as promised.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Today we are talking about Black Swan from twenty.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Ten, and yeah, we are doing a bit more.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Movies than we normally do this month. It's just because
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: we're such horror movie buffs. There's so many to talk about,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: and I do think that a lot of times. As
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: I said that, the themes are really interesting and we're
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: talking about what it is we're afraid of, and particularly
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: when it comes to women. I saw this movie in
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: theaters in twenty ten when it came out, and this
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: was back when the theater near I was in college.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: In the theater near me, every Friday, my roommate and
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: I would go and the tickets if your student costs
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: two dollars. So we just would see all kinds of
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: movies all the time, and we would do double features.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: I saw this and King Speech this same night, and
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: then I will talk about it.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: As we go through.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: But I have some very funny memories of seeing this
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: in theaters for the first time, because I think the
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: crowd was a bit so it was nominated for a
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: bunch of awards, right, So I think it was a
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: lot of older folks who were not anticipating the type.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Of movie an it was.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was unexpected.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: The reactions were very, very funny, particularly to one scene
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking of, right, But this was probably one of
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: the first movies I watched before, like I had started
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: on the podcast and before we you know, one day
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: would start our feminist movie Friday and like me and
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: my roommate my friend, we just sat and discussed it,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: like what does it mean and what does this say?
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: And what about this and what are we saying about women?
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: About here and it was interesting a lot of the
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: different takes that we got. And then recently it's been
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: on my mind because a friend of mine said she
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: had watched a YouTube video about like the dangers of perfectionism,
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: which we've talked about and particularly for women, and it
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: used black Swan as kind of this academic example of
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: breaking down like look how deadly this is or can be.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: And speaking of a quick sugar warning, we are going
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: to be talking about mental illness, abuse, death, potential suicide.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, but we're not gonna go too in depth
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: into any of that stuff. I know I've told this
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: very before, but this as a college student after I
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: saw this movie first sex stream I ever had me
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: the Cunas and Joseph.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Gordon love it like, I don't know why he showed up.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: He was not a black Swan.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: No, No, I don't know why he was there. I
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: don't think I've seen him in anything, just like it, lingering, waiting.
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: Just hanging out.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: And then I went as Nina Sayersnlie Portman's character to
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: a Halloween party years and years ago and it was
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: a pretty i have to say red costume and it
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: was one of my first forays into making something and
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: I really liked how I turned out. I still have
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: it back here. Yeah, I really liked it. I also
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: have that thing Pete Jacket or the black Swan one.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, okay, yeah, like the Ballerina the makeup, the
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: eye makeup was so cool.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Shout out to my friend Katie.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Also, at the time, I didn't realize that Sebastian stan
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: was in this, and that's only been a recent discovery
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: But he is in this.
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: Yes he is for blank second, yes.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Very quick, but he is there. And every time I
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: see it, it kind of throws me.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know why.
• 6:09
  Speaker 5: I'm like, oh rsh just man right. So this is
• 6:13
  Speaker 5: my first time watching it. I've never watched it, never
• 6:16
  Speaker 5: really been interested in it. I guess there's also questions
• 6:18
  Speaker 5: of like and we'll talk all about this later, but yeah,
• 6:21
  Speaker 5: there's a lot of things like huh okay. I also
• 6:24
  Speaker 5: have a strong feeling about Aeronofski in general, so it's like, eh,
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: why but yeah, interesting to watch for sure, And because
• 6:31
  Speaker 5: I've known about it too long, I think nothing surprised me.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I had twenty ten. I didn't realize
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: I've been that long.
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Wow, it's eleven years mm hm them and them
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: young selves nothing more. Still married to the ballet dancer though, right, oh,
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: that's where she met her husband.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: I believe on this.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: I have no idea, I'm sure.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: I think he's a ballet dancer and they've been together
• 6:53
  Speaker 5: since Black Swan.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: Huh, Right, there you go.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Well, there you go, rand faction that I know, cele fact.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: All right, So let's begin with the movie. Yeah.
• 7:06
  Speaker 5: Black Swan is a twenty ten psychological horror movie directed
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: by Darren Aronowski.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: It follows a repressed.
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: Timid ballet dancer, Nina Sayers played by Natalie Portman. Sayers
• 7:19
  Speaker 5: is a perfectionist, constantly pushing herself to be perfect in
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: her dance. She lives with a very controlling and infantalizing mother,
• 7:26
  Speaker 5: who was a ballerina herself until she had to stop
• 7:30
  Speaker 5: because she had gotten pregnant with Nina.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, the ballet company Nina Dances for announces the retirement
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: of their prima Ballerina, Beth McIntyre played by Winona Ryder,
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: and that their new show is going to be Swan Lake,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: so they hold auditions for the lead roles, roles that
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: require the dancer to embody both the innocent White Swan
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: and her evil twin, the Black Swan, as the artistic
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: director suspects. Nina nails the White Swan, but dancing as
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: the Black Swan is a real struggle for her and Jess.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: As she is dancing the difficult coda for the Black Swan,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: her concentration is broken when a new dancer from the
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: West Coast named Lily played by Mili Kunas loudly enters
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: and Nina stumbles and doesn't finish.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: And that is the key. Remember this. She doesn't finish.
• 8:21
  Speaker 5: By the way, I didn't realize what no no writer
• 8:23
  Speaker 5: was in this at all, and I was like, oh,
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: oh wow, there is.
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: Did I mention her?
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: That's when you were like, oh, I've never seen that.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: I was like, what when we were talking about because
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: that's kind of the theme of you know, dying to
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: be young that we talked about this whole thing, because
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: it's implied that they have a conversation with other dancers,
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: and it's very implied that she's being forced to retire
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: because she's older, right, yes, because.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: It are too old.
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: So the next day Nina goes to ask the director
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: for the part and this is after she steals some
• 8:53
  Speaker 5: things from another writer's character to try to become more
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: like her, which says a lot and hen that she
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: is the perfect casting for the white Swan, but that
• 9:04
  Speaker 5: he doesn't think she can dance the black Swan. To
• 9:08
  Speaker 5: Nina Ralentz about leave when the director asks her why
• 9:11
  Speaker 5: she got all dulled up, and that was all the
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: fights she was going to put into it. When he
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: forcibly kisses her, she bites him and quickly walks away.
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: The director is surprised by her actions, thinking her incapable
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: of doing something so mean and forceful. Nina is surprised
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: to learn she has been cast in the lead roles,
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: and the director tells her he wants to see more
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: of that bite. Yeah, definitely a lot of feelings in
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: this movie. So Nina attends a gala in her honor.
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: She has to schmoz and show off and pretend to
• 9:44
  Speaker 5: be the lead wearing all white to get donors excited
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: and willing to give them more money. When she is
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: in the bathroom, she picks up something protruding near her nail,
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: and it is once again interrupted by Lily, dressed in
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: all black, who is much more free and open and flirty.
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: She tries to convince Nina to stay and talk to her,
• 10:04
  Speaker 5: but Nina leaves. Later that night, she and the director
• 10:08
  Speaker 5: run into Beth, who was furious at being forced out
• 10:11
  Speaker 5: of the company. She accuses Nina of sucking his cock
• 10:14
  Speaker 5: to get this role, and Nina fires back, some of
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: us don't have to. And then before things can actually escalate,
• 10:20
  Speaker 5: the director intervenes. His nickname for Beth is Little Princess.
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: Seriously condescending, The director briefly takes Nina to his apartment,
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: asking her if she's a virgin, giving her the assignment
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: to go home and touch herself. Nina tries, but before
• 10:36
  Speaker 5: she can, she's interrupted because she sees that her mother
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: was sitting next to her bed.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: Super awkward moment.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is the moment when I saw in
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: theaters where the older clientele in the audience were aghast
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: and like laughing.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: We were all laughing and shock at all the reactions.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: It was so great because it's like, I believe Clint
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Manziel does a soundtrack so building like dramatic moment. She's
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: like really going at it with this masturbation thing, and
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: then it cuts to her mom right there and the
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: music goes like.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Bomb ball, Will I remember that moment so.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Clearly yeah, yes, once again does not get to finish
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: all right. So the next day, Nina finds out that
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Beth was hit by a car. The director believes that
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: she did it on purpose to end her life. So
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Nina gets these things, some of the best things that
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: she's taken, goes over to visit her in the hospital,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: and Beth is unconscious at this moment, but Nina sees
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: that she broke both of her legs and will never
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: will probably never dance probably again, and she sort of
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: flees before Beth wakes up. Back at the studio, the
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: director asked that Nina observed Lily dancing the black Swan,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: commenting that her movements are quote effortless and that she
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: quote isn't faking it. Lily shares a resemblance to Nina,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: but has the qualities of the black Swan that Nina lacks.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: Nina begins to see more and more doppelgangers of herself,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: often a black Swan version of herself, more sensual and dark,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: and she starts to find these scratches on her back.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: The director grows more and more frustrated with her unsensual
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: performance as the black Swan at one rehearsal, asking it
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: the other dancer, would you that girl? No, no one would,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: and then he kicks everybody out, and then he dances
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: with her, touching her and kissing her. Then he angrily
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: pulls away and says, that was mused seducing you when
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: it should be the other way around, and he leaves
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: her alone. They also laughed very hard at that part
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: because then she runs after him and says please, and
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: it's like a really awkward.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Moment, and the whole audience was like, oh no, what.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Lily comes to Nina's apartment to apologize for telling the
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: director to lay off Nina something that really annoyed Nina,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: and calls the director to yell at her for whining,
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: and she asks Nina out for drinks. And this is
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: one of those like there's a paranoia throughout this movie.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: But Nina's like, how did you know where I live?
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: And Lily says, I have my ways, but she just
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: got it from the secretary at the office. But anyway,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Nina ignores her mother's strong objections and agrees to go out.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Lily offers her ecstasy and she refuses, but Lily puts
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: some in her drink without Nina's knowledge, or like she
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: kind of sees it but doesn't do I don't know.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I guess she's just going along with the ride.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: At this point, the two drink and dance and flirt
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: with some men Sebastian Stan included. Nina kisses someone and
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: the hallucinations grow as they dance on the dance floor.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: When they get back to Nina's place, a clearly still
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: inebriated Nina taunts her mom about the night out that
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: she's had, prompting her mom to hit her. Furious, Nina
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: takes Lily's hand and leaves her into a room, barricading
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: it from the inside and shouting at her mother to
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: leave her alone. Lily and Nina have sex, and the
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: black tattooed wings on Lee's backs start like shivering and moving,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: but before Nina can finish, she hallucinates a version of
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: herself in the place of Lily, her mother's voice calling
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: her sweet girl, and a pillow being pressed over her face.
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: So when she wakes up the next morning, Lily is
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: gone and the door is still barricaded from the inside.
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: Nina angrily tells her mother she's moving out because apparently
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: she woke up late and her mother would refuse to
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: wake her up. She finds Lily dancing the black scene
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: choreography and confronts her about last night, and Lily reveals
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: she doesn't sleep over unless she has a dick. She
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: actually says that teasing Nina for having a sex dream
• 14:33
  Speaker 5: about her. Nina's paranoia grows as she learns that Lily
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: has been made her alternate. She begs the director to
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: choose someone other than Lily, filling Lily's out to get her.
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: The director tries to assure her, telling Nina the only
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: one in her way is her, which is not wrong.
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: Her hallucinations increase and her behavior becomes more erratic. Someone
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: writes horror on the mirror in red lipstick. She throws
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: away her stuffed animals. She practices non stop, she's not eating.
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: She goes to see Beth in the hospital to return
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: her items, but Beth stabs herself.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: And the cheek with a nail file that she gets back.
• 15:10
  Speaker 5: Really grows shouting nothing on repeat, morphing into Nina, and
• 15:15
  Speaker 5: all the images her mother has painted of her start
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: moving and Nina flees to her room and hallucinations, transforming
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: into a swan, hitting her head, passing out. The next
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: morning is opening night, and Nina's mother again didn't wake
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: her when she overslept, saying that she had called to
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: let them know that she was sick and would not
• 15:32
  Speaker 5: be coming. She tries to leave. Nina does, but her
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: mother has removed the door knob, and Nina attacks her
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: mother and recovers the knob, yelling at her about how
• 15:42
  Speaker 5: she was the one that never left the core.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: So, Nina arrives some Lincoln Center late and the director
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: tells her he had already asked Lily to fill in
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: for her, but Nina doesn't budge, asking him if he
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: needs another controversy after what happened to Beth. Impressed, the
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: director agrees to let her dance during the first act.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: A hallucination midway leads to her being dropped as the
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: other dancers carrying her. Distraught, she goes to her dressing
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: room only to find Lily getting ready to dance the
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Black Swan, taunting her about her failure and inability to
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: dance the black Swan. Lily transforms into Nina as the
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: black Swan, and the two fight so you got two Nina's,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: you got your white Swan, your black Swan. And as
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: they're fighting, they break a mirror, a shard embedding into
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: the black Swan's stomach, only for her to transform back
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: into Lily, now bleeding on the floor. Panicked, Nina hides
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: her body in the bathroom and goes back to the
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: stage to dance the Black Swan, losing herself just as
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: the director kept pushing her to. Also, that's the common theme.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: That's the name of the song that often plays is
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: called Lose Yourself. And she does this dance like flawlessly.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: She grows feathers and wings as she does it. It's
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: very Yeah, you've probably seen that image before she kiss
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: This is the director backstage before returning to the stage
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: to thunderous applause star wars reference Natalie Portman. She goes
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: back to her dressing room to change back into the
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: white Swan, only to be interrupted by Lily, who congratulates
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: her on her performance and says she'll let her finish.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Nina frantically checks the bathroom, but there is nobody or blood.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: She looks down and realizes the shard is in her
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: own stomach, standing her white uniform with blood still. She
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: returns to the stage to finish the performance, catching sight
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: of her mom watching her with tears before she takes
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: the final swan dive, the crowd giving her a standing ovation.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: The director comes back to where she is laying on
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: the mattress, praising her performance and calling her little princess,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: before he realizes she is bleeding, demanding someone to call
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: for help, and asking what she did. Nina says that
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: she was perfect, and the movie ends with the audience
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: chanting her name and clap yes so so much. I
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: could unfac here, but I did want to touch on, obviously,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: the mental illness aspect, because I know, like a lot
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: of horror movies, it's pretty problematic trope, and a lot
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: of horror movies where that is used as sort of
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: the horror right, and it is clear like throughout you're
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: not sure what's real and what's not, and you're always questioning,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: questioning that and questioning the validity of her interpretation of
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: things or her paranoia.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: That she is certainly.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Like needed help one, but was a perfectionist and could
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: not like let go of being perfect and pushing herself
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: to be perfect. But I also think It's interesting this
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: whole aspect of like art and the kind of expectations
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: around it, of expectations of sharing your pain or going
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: through pain, or being expected or even applauded when something
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: is painful, difficult mentally or physically. Because throughout there's also
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: just all his imagery of the damage on her body,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: like constantly you see the like her toes or how
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: the thin she is, and that was I remember when
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: this came out me like Hunice gave an interview where
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: she said, like it looked good on screen, but it
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: was so unhealthy, like we were so thin. Yeah, and
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: just I remember reading about like their diets and how
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: much exercise they did. And it's weird when you watch
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: a movie that is about art and then like you've
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: learned about kind of the same thing that's happening. Like really,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: as they're making the movie, it's kind of like, right,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: our imitating life. I guess it's what they always say.
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: Natalie Portman was purposely getting smaller and smaller. Yeah, but
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: then there was this whole thing about her self harming.
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: So the scratches came on pretty early on, which is
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: when we see the interactions. It was I think even
• 20:17
  Speaker 5: before they started talking about doing black Swan, even though
• 20:20
  Speaker 5: they had been practicing it already. But like, yeah, and
• 20:24
  Speaker 5: that was self inflicted, but she was trying to pretend
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: that she wasn't self inflicted. But that was a habit
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: that her mom caught early on, knowing that that was
• 20:31
  Speaker 5: going to pull her to a breakdown because she mentioned
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: it is happening again.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: Isn't that so something had happened previously. That made her.
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: Think there's a lot to it, of course, but there
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: seemed to be an indication that this is a pattern
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: for her and it was part of her stress and
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: part of her reaction to stress.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and it's I always kind of thought. And
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: again I'm someone who reads like perhaps too deeply into
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: things a lot, but I always kind of thought it
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: was like her feeling that she was imperfect manifesting like
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: on her on her body, and she because she is
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: really really hard on herself, and.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: In a strange way, that is.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: What holds her back a lot of times, is that
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: she's so afraid of not being perfect that she doesn't
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: it holds her back. But I, yeah, I did want
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: to talk about the relationship between the mother and daughter
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: and this because it's very toxic.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: And back when I.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Was having that you know, early preset minty feminist movie
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Friday conversation in college with my friends, one of the
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: things I thought was the most interesting was one of
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: my friends was like, well, obviously there was some sexual
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: abuse that happened.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: I was like, what that is not what I picked
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: up on.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: But it is very like I feel like it's a
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: very infantilizing, like she's trying to keep her in her
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: little girl state, like her room is, you know, in
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: shades of pink.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: It's very childish.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: She has all these stuffed animals in there, a lot
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: of their like her mom calls her all the time
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: and calls the secretary of complaining about stuff at the
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: ballet place for Nina all the time, and there's this
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: She's just very controlling and very protective and that narrative
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: of you know, I had to She even says at
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: one point, you know, like I had to give up
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: my career because of you. And I think feeling that
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: guilt and seeing kind of Nina Sayers and Ali Portman's
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: character go from defending Beth and saying like, you know,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: you can dance into you know, Fontaine dance into her
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: forties or whatever, and then at the end she's saying,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: you know you were old, Bobby, like it didn't matter
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: that I was born, it was too late for you,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: and that whole scene where she's sort of replacing Beth,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: and in the back of her mind she must know like,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: one day this is my moment, but one day someone
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: will a.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Younger will replace me as well.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: But all let's say, I think there's a lot of
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: resentment in their mother daughter relationship, right.
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: I think there is also the conversation of like, she
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: saw herself and so wanted Natalie to succeed, but then
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: when she saw her succeed, she was passing her and
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: leaving her behind. So there was this rebread and needed
• 23:15
  Speaker 5: to be needed. So that's all she knew at that point,
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: so she wanted to push her to that point so.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: That she could be successful.
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: So I thought she was going to be that controlling
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: mother that you see oftentimes when they poured their own
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: livelihoods and expectations into the child. But then it flipped
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: real quick when she's like, oh, she's getting there. But
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: I also think part of her paranoia blew up to
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: making her mom the enemy. There was a lot of
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: bad things, and her mom was actually caring for her.
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: She really was like trying to stop her from doing
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: all these bad things to herself in a really negative way.
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: It was still toxic the way she was trying to
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: do it, but she's trying to save her daughter's life,
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: so she knew she was going to die.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: It's that's fazing too.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, now, I it was just complicated. It was a
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: complex relationship because she was definitely going up at it
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: in a very unhealthy way. She has that entire room
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: of just like paintings of Nina, and it just feels
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: like at the part where she hits Nina, it's because
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: she said she had sex with two men, and so
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: that felt to me like she.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Was like, oh, you're gonna make the same mistake, right
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: I did, even though it's implied that she it was
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: like maybe this director fellow not the same guy, but
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: like somebody in that position at the ballet place who
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: got her pregnant and was like you're fired goodbye. Right. Yeah,
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: But definitely there was a vibe of.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: Not wanting Nina to make the same mistakes, but also
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: wanting to be very in controlling, not wanting her to
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: surpass her, like you said, because she'll she'll say these
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: comments that are very like biting when it's almost like
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: she's like, look, I know you try, you work so hard,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: you're so good, but you're never gonna get beyond this
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: and that's just where you are, and that's fine, Nina.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: But Nina's like, no, I got to push myself. I
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: got to push myself. I got to pish myself.
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: Right. It was a really backheaded way of trying to
• 25:05
  Speaker 5: slow her down and being healthy, it seemed. Again, there
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: are some moments that I was like, did that actually
• 25:12
  Speaker 5: happen or did so? Was she actually in the audience
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: or was she not? Because she got her hand crushed
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: twice by her Did that happen? Or was that in
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: our house? Like which part was the actual mother of
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: what we were seeing?
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I always thought she was there, But you're right, it's
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: so much of it is destabilizing in the reality. And
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: then there's also that scene that it kind of relates
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: to what we've been talking about lately, but where she
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Nina finds out she gets the part. She's like so
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: happy and calls her mom and she comes home and
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: her mom has this cake and Nina's like no, no, no, no, no, no, can't.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: It's too big, it's too big. And then her mom
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: is like, oh, it's garbage. It like goes to throw
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: it away, and then Nina's like, oh, okay, no it,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: I'll eat it.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: But just moments of that of.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Being like really controlling, dependent on each other, very unhealthy way.
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: Right for sure, Like it was one of those moments
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: of like, okay, she's not eating, but then she just
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: pitched a bet what what?
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: So that bost of those.
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: Things like, yeah, you do want her to eat a
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: slice caaed exactly, but at the same time, you don't
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: want the mother to force her and make her feel
• 26:22
  Speaker 5: guilty and gaslighting her to doing these things.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes, I also did want to talk
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: about I feel like we talk about this all the time,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: but this movie is very much like The Madonna and
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: whoror The Good Girl the Bad Girl. You've got your good, sweet,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: innocent white Swan. It was timid and virginal, described as virginal,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: and then you've got the black Swan who is seen
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: as like sensual and much more like free, you know,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: live and there. I mean, there's one scene in this
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: where because Lily is clearly like the black Swan embodiment.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: She's I was watching it last night, even though I
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: really don't need to because I've seen this a million.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Times, but I loved it.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: But Mila Cutas is like rosspart who is the sorcerer,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: a dressed all in black that casts a spell. At
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: the beginning, she's sort of this person that keeps catching
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Nina's attention. And then at the scene where she is
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: like hovering over Nina's shoulder like she's the devil on
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: her shoulder. But there's this scene where there they go
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: out to the restaurant and Nalie Portman, Nina gets, you know,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: like a salad, Emila Cunas gets a burger and it's
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: like extra cheese and it is rare, and I'm.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Like, this is cool girl. This is the cool girl
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: trope right right exactly.
• 27:46
  Speaker 5: She's also the one that gets the guy and then
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: shuts down the waiter.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, like it's very very flirty and just painted
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: as like everything is you know, easy and light and
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: she's you know, fun and willing to live like and
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Nina next to hers just like so repressed and closed off.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: And yeah, Lily keeps.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Telling her live a little and she is, I mean,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Nina is very repressed. But like if we're looking at
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: like the symbolism of what's going on, then essentially it is, yeah,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: you can not be this versional all white white swan
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: or this very sexual black swan who.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: All the men want to be with. Apparently, even though like.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: When he was like, would you that girl and he's
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: talking about Ali Port were like, uh, all right, dude,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: I don't know what I think about. But there's also
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: a scene where there's just a man masturbating on the subway,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: like an old man, and he's looking at her. And
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: every time I see that scene, I'm like, I'm not
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: sure what I meant to take from this other than
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: like she's extremely uncomfortable in her kind of image and
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: how people perceive.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Her as being one way.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: But you would be, anybody would be. That's a crime.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: That's absolutely a crime.
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: So to me, this is one of those moments of
• 29:09
  Speaker 5: Aeronofsky making a shock value demoralizing women, and I know
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: that's the point. He literally wanted to talk about how
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: women are the mean to these subjects of whether it's
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: for us being the virgin or being a whore, like
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: you can't be either, or you are the overbearing mother,
• 29:26
  Speaker 5: which we've seen a lot, and or the mother who
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: can't protect their children. Like those were his kind of
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: his themes. I've only seen two of his films, so
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: I guess maybe I'm just generalizing, but because of what
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: I know of his kind of personality, what he's been
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: accused of, and then what I know of mother, and
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: then coming back to see this, which is one of
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: the ones that made him a big name, coming back.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: To see this, I was like, yeah, there it is exactly.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: I think. Nothing was shocking to.
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: Me because of these are the expectations of Aeronovsky. These
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: are the expectations of kind of how he uses his women,
• 30:00
  Speaker 5: his own movies, how he uses women in real life.
• 30:03
  Speaker 5: So to me, none of that and I say this
• 30:06
  Speaker 5: in real life as in like what I've read about him,
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: even in his past relationships and his you know, all
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: of those things that I'm like, Okay, he is that
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: director that I would be very much afraid to have
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: anybody tell me how it was to work with him
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: because of those demands, and again, like I know part
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: of that was because he pushed them because he wanted
• 30:27
  Speaker 5: to see this level of angst and depravity.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: Because it was what he was trying to convey.
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: Again, this goes back to and we probably have a
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: larger conversation of types like sex scenes and abuse scenes
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: and how far should we go in the name of art?
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: How far should a woman be pushed in the name
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: of art? And this is one of those prime examples
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: of that of what we're pushing women to be. And again,
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: Mila Kunez, I love that she came out with like
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: this is bad. We went through something really horrible to
• 30:59
  Speaker 5: make it through this film. But yeah, So Natalie Portman
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: won the Academy Awards for this role. She won it
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: as the Best Leading Actress in a Drama, And I
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: get that this is such a big deal in where
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: she did, and I'm sure she's very proud of this moment.
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: But that set level of where are we pushing these artists,
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: which is the same thing that he was. It was
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: very meta in that he was kind of accusing the
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: ballet industry of abusing their women, but in actuality, he
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: did the same thing for this movie. So I feel like,
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: to me, like seems like the masturbation scene is literally
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: to put back into perspective of yes, how innocent she is,
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: and oh my goodness.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: It almost to.
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: The point that, yes, we're supposed to feel creepy about it,
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: but also normalize it as if you should expect it
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: for this to happen. She should have expected it as
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: this beautiful young dancer on public transportation that an old
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: man is going to masturbate to her. Like it's and again,
• 31:57
  Speaker 5: like I said, I could be stretching that to like
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: angry as the why do we have to go to
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: these links for us to be successful? Us being women
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: and being taken seriously? And that's kind of that level.
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: Not gonna lie and I think we're gonna talk about
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: it in a minute, But like I felt like the
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: same scene with and I get that was a point,
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: but the sex thing between Amla Kunos and Natalie Portman
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: felt like it was for the mel gaze more so
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: than the movie.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, well yeah, And that's interesting because I, like.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: I said, I had my first sex dream after that
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: I turned on. But now that I'm like older, it
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: is kind of like another example of crevating, and crevating
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: is really complicated. We talked about it in a whole episode.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: You can look at it but.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: I was I was kind of like, let them get
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: together even though it was very unhealthy, right, But I
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: did want to talk about what you were just discussing.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Is this uneven power dynamic between especially in this case,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: the male director of the vallet and Nally Portman specifically
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: I mean Nina, but all all the ballet dancers really,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: but in this case her and just has so many
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: instances of like him abusing his position in the name
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: of art, like you were talking about, like really going
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: too far, but it being for the art, and it
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: is because Aeronofsky is That's kind of what Mother was about,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: is like, you know, men taking women who are their
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: muses and putting them through some to make the art
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: that they'll be credited for, awarded for, and then throwing
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: away that, you know, traumatized woman who was their muse.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: Right, So it is. It is weird.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: And sometimes you see a movie and you're like, or
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: I may books because every time I read a Stephen.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: King book, I'm like, so this is you, Stephen King,
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: this is your.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's not good if I'm like, oh, are
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: you like vibing with this ballet is art director? Right? Yeah,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: So this whole movie was apparently kind of inspired by
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: the quote shadowy world of understudies and doppelgangers and kind
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: of taking that and then turning it into a psychological
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: horror movie. But also yeah about agism and this whole
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: just idea of getting replaced, which I thought was interesting
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: because as you watch it and Nina is having hallucinations
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: and paranoia, you are unsure of like, Okay, I mean,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: the understudy is kind of there to replace you, But
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: how much is this is paranoia?
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: How much of it is Lily actually trying to sabotage you?
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: Hmmm?
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: At what points was she really there and was she
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: really like to me?
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: I Will noticed when Lily shows up to the apartment,
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: the mother doesn't acknowledge her. The mother doesn't see her
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: the entire time, the mother doesn't talk to her.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: So I'm wondering if.
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: She was actually showed up as opposed to maybe like
• 35:22
  Speaker 5: she went out with her, and they did go out,
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: but she never showed up Like. I wondered both of
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: those things because I purposely watched the mom's reaction. She
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: never acknowledges as if she was there. Yeah, and I
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: see her growing concern when she's talking about So it
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: could be that she's growing concerned because she's leaving the house,
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: or she's strong concerned because she's having an imaginary conversation
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: with no one there.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I always like upon after the movie is done.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: The first time, I thought that she had been there,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: but I think, yeah, she wasn't there. The way it
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: shot is like Lily is kind of like over her shoulder, yes,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: and seeing the lines with her as she says them.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: So I don't think she was there, but it is
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: you know, all these things that you've got to question,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: and there's a lot of like elements of gaslighting throughout
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: where you're kind of I can't tell how much of
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: it is gaslighting and how much of it is something
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: did or did not happen.
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: I'm a hallucination right Well, to be fair, the original
• 36:24
  Speaker 5: Beth was thinking that the entire time that now Impartment
• 36:28
  Speaker 5: Nina's character was coming after her, and she didn't want
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: her to be the like I don't know if maybe
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: this was a rerun of what happened to the person
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: before her, but it kind of was that same insinuation
• 36:38
  Speaker 5: that you're trying to be me, you're trying to replace me,
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: and she kind of was because she stole her to
• 36:42
  Speaker 5: look like her.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then at the end when she goes to
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: visit death at the hospital, Nina's like, I.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Understand now she's out to get me.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: She's trying to get me, and that's like, you stole
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: my things, right, and then it devolves from there.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, But I did.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: Want to talk about this because back in my when
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: I first saw this movie, I thought that the whole
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: thing was about the female orgasm.
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: Okay, interesting, yes.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Because and you know we're gonna use some language. Is
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: not totally uh.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: I guess the problematic is problematic and how we think
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: about orgasms and how sex works and orgasms don't have
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: to be the end all be all, but that is
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: how we discuss them a lot. But throughout the movie,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: there's so many lines where it's like, just let her finish,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: lose yourself, and it's like constantly, every time she's on
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: the verge of a breakthrough of losing herself of an orgasm,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: something happens she's interrupted.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: And so I.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Thought the first time I saw this, I thought it
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: was about the fear of the female orgasm, because when
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: she finally does finish, she does and ors very that
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: at the very least, right, and it's definitely like, maybe
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: that's not what the whole meaning is, or maybe I
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: was reading too much into it, but that is the
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: theme throughout, is that she never gets to she's repressed
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: and she never gets to have this sexual experience of
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: sexual orgasm.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: But it doesn't she finished with me lacunas. No, but
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: she's not thought she did.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, nope, because since she they were like on
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: the urge, the edge, I guess, and then she looks
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: up and it's her own face and then the pillow
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: in her face, and so she does not.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Plus she probably wasn't well, who knows what was happening
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: at that point, if she was masturbating her.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: Cab scene too.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm assuming that was a hallucination as well.
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: Right right, m my a subject as well. Guy, I
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: would not have gone there. That was not my thoughts.
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: That's an interesting thing.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: See, this is what I love about when you have
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: these conversations with friends and there's like feminism involved.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I think these people who involved in this
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: would be afraid lady having an orgasm.
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: My thought was that a woman could not be fully human.
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: That was my whole thing until like she gave everything
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: up of herself and then sacrificed yourself and then you
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: could be credited as human.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, Like, yeah, are either just any value the
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: art Yeah, of having to really put your your health
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: physical and mental health on the line, And.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: I guess I would include not having orgasms.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: I could. I mean, it's just so funny.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: That's why I wanted to talk about this for so
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: long because I was so adamant about it, and this
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: was before I really you know, I was I was
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: learning more and more about feminism and how we talk
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: about these kinds of things. But I'm just surprised that
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: I was so strongly of the opinion at this point
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: that that's what it was about. And when I say, like,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: it's problematic in terms of you know, as we've discussed
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: in a lot of recent episodes, it's the orgasm doesn't
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: have to be the end or the the you know,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: the thing. But a lot of the music when she's
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: like masturbating and you know, almost there is building like
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: it's like leading up to this, which does make sense,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: but that also gives like the narrative of Jess Letter
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: finish like and that is the end all, which it
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: doesn't have to be. But I remember I was like
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: shouting that at the screen at just let her finish
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: the whole reason I want to talk about this obviously,
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of like themes that I have thought about.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: It'll change the way you watch it.
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: It's more of like, I see where your head's at, Annie,
• 40:54
  Speaker 5: I see what your hel's at.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: I mean again, the first extream I ever had after
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: this movie, So maybe my head was in a very
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: specific place at this point in time.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, hey, you do you? Yes, well let's speak to
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: you how it needs to speak to you.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I appreciate that, Samantha. I will say, like.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: The time when this came out, I don't think it
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: was still pretty and it still is pretty risque, even
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: though you know it really shouldn't be. But to show
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: a woman masturbating that was like the first instance I
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: had seen it, And.
• 41:27
  Speaker 5: I'm sure it's even more shocking because it was Natalie Portman, Like,
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: there's so many things to who she is as an
• 41:33
  Speaker 5: individual that like having again, this is very much her role,
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: Like to me, yes, this is so is suited for
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: her from jump from being that playing innocent being very
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: like all of these things, even though even as a child,
• 41:46
  Speaker 5: she never was a child actor, Like we know this.
• 41:49
  Speaker 5: Her first role was really really deep and dark and
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: a fantastic role, but like, oh, this should have been
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: for an adult, right, But there's no way any other
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: child like she really pulled it off as a child
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: in these roles. But at the same time, you still
• 42:02
  Speaker 5: have her as an innocent, young, all American sweet girl.
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: So having her masturbate as a timid almost herself as
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: almost what we would expect of her, Like it's a
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: character for her.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: To do that is shocking in itself.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I remember also at this time that now
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: you're making me analyze all of my stuff that was
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: going on.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: But I just bought my first vibrator. I had just
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: learned about masturbation.
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: I feel like there's a whole awakening that ties to
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: this movie for you.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: I think so. I had never thought about it in
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: this way. Thank you say so.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: At the time when it came out, I don't think
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: i'd ever seen anything like that.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: I was even like, is that, how are you mastur rate?
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: I didn't know.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: People were like no, But I don't think I've seen
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: like a sex scene between women or if I had.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Not like that.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, clearly it stuck with me. And this is what
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: I at the time. I was like, a orgasm, that's
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: what you.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: Took from it? Got it?
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: Again, Yeah, I think that's a lot to say in itself.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: I feel like you're judging me, But it's all.
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: Right, you're not judging you at all.
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: Because I was like, huh, and I think you told
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: me this before and it didn't click, and then watching
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: it and I'm like, I still don't get it, but okay,
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: get it.
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: I do get it.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Mm hm.
• 43:24
  Speaker 5: I felt like that was like that would have been
• 43:26
  Speaker 5: never the conclusion I had come to.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Then again, I have a lot more.
• 43:31
  Speaker 5: I was already tainted by so many previous conversations about
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: this movie in general, so I was already very aware
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: of kind of some of the things that were floating
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: out there in conversation to this movie.
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: Not your conversation that was new what I have perceived.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I will say, like, if this was a
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: different podcast, we'd go more into it. But there was
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: also controversy about how much dancing Nlie Portman did do
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: actually do versus what they said she actually did, And
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: then austar around the costuming and who got credit for
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: the costuming. But it seems very complicated, right. It seems
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: like a lot of hears say I don't want to
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not coming out on anybody's side.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying I know that that exists.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: So yes, and jose FYI. Yes.
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: So she married Benjamin Millipede, who is a French ballet dancer,
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: and he was the choreographer. Oh interesting, he played David Moreau.
• 44:32
  Speaker 5: So I don't know, I don't know. I think that's
• 44:34
  Speaker 5: her partner in the movie. Oh yes, this is how
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: she met her husband.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, yeah, I mean I could keep going
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: on and on because I just have so many thoughts
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: about so much of this stuff in this movie, and
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: just also the pressure for women to feel perfect and
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: the pressure to put up with stuff we really shouldn't
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: have to put up with because that's where the industry was.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, pretty soon after this, the ballet industry did
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: have their whole me too movement. I mean I guess
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: a couple of years, but still like they underwent that
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: as well. And uh, there's just a lot about, yeah,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: the art that goes in into this and what we
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: expect of women, but otherwise, if I keep going, we'll
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: never stop. Yes, I did also, but you know, briefly
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: want to say, I think it's interesting that the dichotomy
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: of the white swan, black swan, the madonna, the whore
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: like you get praised but also penalized for being the
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: sweet girl, the innocent, the virginal one, but people like
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: the black swan better because she's flirty and fun. I
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: don't know, I find it interesting that there's like punishments
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: involved in both if you stray out of your box,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: but also judgments involved in both.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, lots of things.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Lots well, I'm so glad we finally got to discuss
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: this because it has been since twenty.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: Ten, been over my mind apparently.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: But as always, listeners, if you have a suggestion for
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: a movie, a book, a topic, anything, please contact us.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: You can email at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeartMedia
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Instagram at stuff
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: I Never Told You or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina, thank you,
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
• 46:33
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• 46:35
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