Latest / Into the Channel ⚽️ A Podcast Primarily About Women's Football / Olympic preview: Brazil with Júlia Belas Trindade

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Olympic preview: Brazil with Júlia Belas Trindade · Into the Channel ⚽️ A Podcast Primarily About Women's Football

0:03
OK, welcome to into the channel podcast primarily about women's
0:09
football before we hit the pitch.
0:10
If you enjoy the show or love women's football as much as we
0:12
all do, come kick it with us already.
0:14
We do this every single week spanning the wide world of
0:17
women's football. We continue our span with our
0:19
Olympics football coverage. Subscribe follow YouTube,
0:22
Spotify, Apple podcast wherever you like to watch or listen
0:25
links to all of our socials in the show notes of this episode.
0:28
I am your host Dino de Cespedes and as as always I am joined by
0:31
my Co host Mr. Grant Angle. What is up man?
0:34
I'm feeling fantastic, buddy, And part of the reason I'm
0:37
feeling fantastic is I have the pleasure of introducing our
0:39
guest today who is an educator, researcher, PhD student, and
0:43
journalist. You can find her excellent work
0:44
in The Guardian, where she's a freelance football writer and
0:47
regular contributor to the Guardians women's football
0:49
newsletter, Moving the goal Posts.
0:51
And if you're looking to stay informed during the Olympic
0:54
tournament, and we know you are, she'll be there in Paris
0:56
covering the games. It is my great honor to welcome
0:59
to the show Julia Bellas Trindage.
1:02
Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to talk about
1:05
Brazil, to talk about women's football.
1:07
It's one of my favorite things in life.
1:09
So yes, I'm really happy to be here.
1:12
Well, you're in the right place, Julia, as Grant mentioned, thank
1:16
you so much for joining us. We're excited to get into this
1:18
team. I live in Orlando, which is sort
1:21
of like Brazil N for the footballing world we've got.
1:24
You guys are very well represented here on my Orlando
1:27
Pride, but I do want to focus on the national team and their
1:31
journey into the Olympics. I want to start big picture
1:34
first. So this team has had some
1:37
success, a lot of Copa Medica success, World Cup obviously had
1:41
some success historically, but this past 23 World Cup bounced
1:45
out group stage. So it's been a little bit of up
1:47
and down, although the team is loaded with talent from top to
1:51
bottom. So going into this tournament,
1:53
obviously 12 really, really good teams.
1:56
Everybody's expecting a very competitive tournament.
1:59
What do you feel this Brazilian team's ceiling is?
2:02
That's a really tough question because again, as I said, Brazil
2:06
has so much talent. A lot of the players play in the
2:09
United States, so they know how important it is to have a strong
2:13
league, to have a strong team. They have been playing against
2:18
some of the best players in the world for years now.
2:21
And I would say they are prepared to play the Olympics as
2:25
well as they were prepared to play the World Cup.
2:27
But there's a ceiling and, and it's tough to talk about it
2:30
because if we talk about the big picture, in the late 90s, early
2:35
2000s, Brazil were one of the best teams in the world.
2:38
But with the development of women's football recently, we
2:42
were left behind. And this is something that
2:44
federation is saying that they are trying to change.
2:47
You know, the players are really eager to put Brazil back into
2:51
the top spot in women's football, but it's difficult.
2:53
So, yeah, hopefully I would say that we can reach the
2:58
quarterfinals. But again, I said the same thing
3:02
about the World Cup and we didn't.
3:03
So it's really a surprise, but hopefully getting to knockout
3:08
stages and then being prepared mentally to to play some of the
3:12
best things in the world, that's the goal.
3:15
Yeah, so you guys obviously are in an extremely tough group.
3:18
There's been a lot of talk here in the States about how our
3:21
group is the group of death with Australia, Germany and Zambia.
3:26
I don't know though, I feel like your group with Japan, Spain and
3:30
Nigeria, that feels awfully group of deathy to me.
3:34
When you talk about the possible ceiling, you know, making it out
3:36
of the group stage, making it to the knockout rounds.
3:38
In your mind, in order to do that, who is the player or maybe
3:42
couple of players who have to really come through for you to
3:46
reach that ceiling? Look, we, we cannot talk about
3:49
Brazil without talking about Mata.
3:51
Of course, she's, you know, brilliant, best footballer,
3:54
women's football player in history, and we all know
3:57
everything that is to know about her.
4:00
But, you know, she has a different role in the Brazilian
4:03
national team nowadays. It's kind of similar to what
4:06
Megan Rapino did in the World Cup, you know, more of a
4:09
leadership position than necessarily the player that is
4:12
going to decide every single game.
4:14
But yeah, one of the best things about the Brazilian national
4:17
team nowadays is the defense. The defense has been more solid
4:21
than what we used to have. We all know Brazil for the
4:24
forwards, we all know Brazil for really good midfield.
4:27
So having a good defence, a strong defence is really
4:30
important. I feel like Tassiani, who plays
4:32
for Houston Dash, is one of my favorite younger names in this
4:37
team because she's a really interesting player.
4:39
She has played for for Corrington for a while.
4:42
She has the experience of playing in the national team
4:45
already, but she's struggled with some injuries.
4:47
So she's coming back to the national team in a major
4:50
tournament and it's going to be a really interesting position
4:53
for her to be in because it's her and Hafael who plays for
4:56
Orlando Pride and, and they are both really, really solid
5:00
defenders, really versatile defenders as well.
5:03
So I feel like Brazil having a strong defense will be really
5:06
important because again, we are playing against Spain and we all
5:10
know what they can do when they keep the ball.
5:13
And I think the defense should be one of Brazil's main strong
5:17
points in the Olympics. And we all know that saying,
5:21
right, You know, the forwards win games, defenses win
5:24
tournaments. I don't think we win the
5:27
tournament, but we can surely try.
5:29
Super interesting. Yeah, obviously we've we've
5:31
gotten to see Tosiane up close a little bit more since she moved
5:35
to Houston and she's still so young, just so exciting, like
5:39
she's probably still growing, growing into, you know, her, her
5:42
professional athlete body. I wanted to ask a question
5:45
specifically about the roster construction.
5:48
You mentioned the defenders. So I think by my count, 7
5:52
forwards on the Brazilian side, 6 defenders, only three
5:55
midfielders. Did you notice anything?
5:58
Did did that sort of your radars a little bit about like how the
6:01
team was constructed? The main thing about the
6:03
Olympics is that you cannot take as many players as you can to
6:07
World Cup or Cup America for example.
6:09
So you have to have versatile players.
6:12
So if we look at the roster, of course you know we have 7
6:15
forwards, which is a lot considering that we have only 18
6:19
players. But at the same time, some of
6:22
these forwards can play a little bit behind and can reinforce the
6:26
midfield. But again, we still have a
6:28
pretty world midfield. So I'm curious to see and not
6:33
curious in the best way, but I'm curious to see how these players
6:37
will be able to to hold themselves defensively,
6:40
especially playing against two really strong midfields.
6:43
Like the Japanese are really strong in the midfield.
6:45
They are really strong in building plays.
6:47
The Spanish as well, the Nigerians as well.
6:50
So it will be difficult for Brazil to populate this midfield
6:54
when they are thinking so much about moving forward all the
6:56
time. But again, looking at the
6:59
national team throughout history, our strong point is
7:04
always the offensive side. It's always like building up the
7:07
plays. It's always individual plays as
7:09
well. So it's really important for us
7:11
to have, for example, Adriana, who has been scoring left and
7:14
right at Orlando. Caterling's coming back from
7:17
injury, you know, So some of the players are really strong in
7:20
that sense. And then of course, the main
7:22
question is who is going to score the goals.
7:25
And I think they know better than me who who can try.
7:28
But yeah, it's an interesting roster for sure.
7:32
OK, Julie, so you set the table for me perfectly here.
7:35
I've contained myself as long as I possibly can.
7:38
You mentioned scoring goals, you mentioned Cataline.
7:41
I got the opportunity last season when the Courage played
7:44
in Seattle. I was sitting on the right side
7:48
where she was playing. And I will say, when Cataline is
7:51
playing against the team that you are rooting for, it's a
7:54
terrifying experience. She and you know she won the
7:58
NWSL MVP. We all know what what kind of
8:00
player she is. That was the biggest thing that
8:02
jumped out to me when they named the roster and she's on there.
8:05
Obviously, she's coming off a devastating ACL injury.
8:08
What's the news coming out of Brazil?
8:10
Can we expect Kettling to play against Nigeria or is she going
8:14
to kind of be eased in or do we know yet?
8:17
We still don't know the head coach.
8:19
After the list, he said that he followed some of her training.
8:23
He was in touch with the Courage Magical team and they all say
8:28
she's ready to play and she's been working with the ball for a
8:31
few months now. She's been easing back into the
8:34
pitch. I think it was only a matter of
8:36
trying to preserve her a little bit since he was really to the
8:40
the Olympics. Try not to put her on the page
8:43
before the Olympics so that she could go into the Olympics, have
8:46
a little time with the national team and when she comes back to
8:49
the NWSL, she'll be like fully prepared.
8:52
But yeah, I don't know if she may easy to play against Nigeria
8:58
on the opening game, but I don't think she will be starting that
9:01
game. But who knows?
9:03
We haven't seen her play in a really long time.
9:05
We don't know exactly if she's 100% ready to go back onto the
9:09
pitch. And of course you have to get
9:12
back into rhythm, you have to get back into contact with your
9:16
teammates and everything. So it's really important that
9:18
the Brazilian national team is already in Brazil getting ready
9:22
for the Olympics. And then they travel really
9:24
close, close to the beginning of the Games, to Paris.
9:27
But yeah, it's to Bordeaux, actually.
9:30
But yeah, we still don't know how much Karen is going to play.
9:33
But if she goes back with the same form that she had in the
9:37
last season of the NSL, absolutely she will be really,
9:40
really dangerous. I had a follow up question.
9:43
You mentioned something earlier, Julia asking the question, who's
9:45
going to score the goals? So I think when I looked at this
9:48
roster, obviously there's so many talented Brazilian players
9:50
playing all over the world. Interesting omission.
9:52
So no Debina, no Jace. So when you think about who's
9:57
going to score the goals, who do you think is going to score the
9:59
goals or who are you? Who are you looking to to be the
10:01
goal scorer here? Look, I think one of the main
10:04
names that we've been calling for in the Brazilian national
10:07
team and hasn't had as many opportunities, especially in big
10:11
tournaments, was Gabby Nunez, the Levante player.
10:13
She is a really good forward, a real reference, you know that
10:18
player that's going to be inside the box and try to find the best
10:21
opening to score a goal. So I think she's one of the main
10:25
references in the attacking side of Brazil.
10:28
But at the same time, you have Adriana that can score
10:31
beautifully with set pieces and things like that.
10:34
But yeah, it's one of the main questions, one of the main
10:37
concerns because even though we see 7 forwards in the roster,
10:42
they are mostly players who build up the play, not
10:45
necessarily the ones who will get the ball inside the box and
10:49
just score, try to score as much as they can.
10:52
But again, Brazil has a really versatile team.
10:55
So for example, Rafael has scored some goals with Orlando
10:59
before with Arsenal as well. She's a really good header, so
11:02
whenever there's a corner kick or something like that, she will
11:06
be inside the box to try to score.
11:08
Antonio has scored her first goal with the national team
11:11
recently as well. The Middies is always a strong
11:13
choice as well. So you know, anything can
11:16
happen. But it was one of the main
11:18
concerns for the Brazilian national team in the World Cup.
11:21
The fact that even though we had, for example, Beatrizonera
11:24
to Arimbo, she's, you know, that being they weren't able to score
11:28
when we needed specifically the game against Jamaica that we
11:32
needed to win and we didn't. Yeah, it's quite, it's difficult
11:35
to be a Brazilian fan, to be honest, because you kind of feel
11:38
like you should win everything, not necessarily that you deserve
11:42
to win. But we demand winning a lot of
11:45
winning. We demand goals, We demand
11:47
everything. And seeing Brazil not being the
11:49
favorite all the time, it's still difficult, still hurts a
11:52
little bit. But yeah, hopefully the forwards
11:55
will work well together and then we'll get a few more goals in
11:59
this Olympics. I gotta say, this is the first
12:01
time I'll ever use this phrase and it's a phrase I could only
12:04
use in the women's side of the game.
12:07
I guess USA football and Brazilian football are similar
12:12
in that sense. I would say that's probably the
12:14
end of it. But yeah, that kind of demand of
12:16
you go in every match and you look up and down the roster and
12:19
you look at the other team and usually think we have the more
12:21
talented side going into this game.
12:24
Yeah, I wouldn't feel too bad because nobody scored on Jamaica
12:26
on the group stage. So yes, it wasn't just Brazil.
12:30
Yeah, I know. And and for Brazil, it's a
12:32
matter of mentality contrary to the United States.
12:36
You know, we all talk about the mind power that the US women's
12:40
national team has of, you know, they just get into the pitch and
12:43
they say we are going to win and no one can stop us until someone
12:48
does. But even when they are losing,
12:50
they don't lose their cool. They always play as if it's
12:54
their God-given right to win that game.
12:57
And and that's something that I feel Brazil should learn.
13:00
And being a former US coach, she tried to bring that into Brazil
13:06
a little bit, but it wasn't enough.
13:07
Brazilians, when they failed to score in the first half, usually
13:11
the second-half, they are a bit unfocused.
13:14
They lose their cool a lot. And that's not great, especially
13:18
if you go into knockout stages where, you know, if you make one
13:21
mistakes. And we've had that with the US
13:23
before. So I don't even want to think
13:26
about facing the US in the Olympics.
13:29
But yeah, if you go into the knockout stages, it's just one
13:33
tiny detail can change the game. And for Brazil, I feel like,
13:37
especially after a really poor World Cup, the idea is to shake
13:41
that off and just go into the Olympics trying to feel like
13:45
they need to win and carrying that with them.
13:48
I like how you kind of nod to the team's mentality there and
13:52
you have to think about, you know, with younger players,
13:55
that's something that you need to kind of bring along and that
13:57
they're going to get with some experience.
13:59
We've already hit on a few those players who are just supremely
14:03
talented, who you're kind of looking for to come through.
14:06
Can we spotlight again though, if we want to think about like a
14:09
breakout star, like somebody who maybe world football fans aren't
14:14
too familiar with, Is there a young player in that like 20 to
14:18
2324 years old on the roster who's a potential breakout star
14:22
amongst those young players you have?
14:24
I feel like especially amongst the Brazilians who play who
14:27
still play in Brazil, one of the names that you should keep her
14:31
eyes peeled for is to the Empire.
14:33
She was really good in the Brazilian Championship couple of
14:36
years ago and now she plays for Corringians who are the best
14:40
team in Brazilian football. And you know, she is a really,
14:44
really interesting player to watch and she's a midfielder.
14:47
She's a really strong midfielder.
14:49
I don't think we'll be seeing her playing in Brazil for too
14:51
long, but she's one of my favorite players in the national
14:55
team who still play for in Brazilian clubs.
14:59
And it's really interesting to see her play and to see her grow
15:02
into this footballer that is going into the Olympics.
15:06
She's going to be one of the important names in this team.
15:09
And after Elias, the head coach of Brazil, he used to coach
15:12
Corringtons. He coached Corringtons for a
15:14
really long time. He built Corringtons into what
15:18
they are today. You know, many, many times
15:20
champions of the Brazilian championship, of the Coppola
15:23
Betadores. They are the Brazilian club that
15:25
keep calling for World Club Cup because they feel like they need
15:29
to fight to play against stronger teams and to see if
15:33
they are the best. They held records, world records
15:36
for continuous wins, sequential wins in the world.
15:40
So after Elias was kind of the name that brought them to this
15:43
place. But of course, one thing is to
15:45
coach a really well structured club in Brazil where women's
15:49
football is not really well structured comparing to coaching
15:53
the not best national team in the world.
15:56
So I feel like for Brazil, the challenge right now is to be in
16:00
between humble and understand that you cannot do everything.
16:04
We'll have to focus on your strong point and you will fail,
16:07
but you cannot let yourself get beaten but every time you miss a
16:12
ball or something and having the confidence to say no.
16:15
But we still can't win this and we can still go in strong and
16:19
try to play as equally as we can against these teams that are,
16:24
you know, brilliant. And we are in the group, in the
16:28
Spanish group. So, you know, they are, they are
16:31
just brilliant to watch and they have brilliant players, you
16:34
know, some of the best players in the world.
16:36
So it's quite difficult to see Brazil beating Spain, but it's
16:40
not impossible. But I wouldn't bet on that.
16:43
Like I I wouldn't recommend. Both Grant and I retired from
16:47
betting on this, so we just kind of want to watch the action.
16:51
Quick follow up to that. So nine of the players on the 18
16:55
person roster play professionally in Brazil.
16:58
Corinthians, who you mentioned six players from Corinthians.
17:00
Do you feel like that might be a little bit of an advantage or
17:03
could there be some chemistry stuff with essentially half the
17:06
team, you know, playing domestically and a third of the
17:09
team play for Corinthians specifically and then the rest
17:12
obviously spread out between Europe and the USA?
17:15
There are two points of view today.
17:17
It's the first one, of course. It's an advantage to have so
17:20
many players who have been playing together, who know each
17:23
other really well, who know the coach, who know the style, the
17:26
way that he likes to play, that he likes to build the team.
17:29
And of course we have one corrections representative in
17:33
every sector of the pitch. So they can be those players who
17:37
are going to translate his thoughts, who know him so well,
17:40
who have been playing with him for such a long time that they
17:43
will be those players to say no. Even if I don't hear what he's
17:47
saying, I think he'll want us to do this, this and that, and they
17:50
will be really connected. I feel like that's a really
17:53
strong point. But at the same time,
17:54
considering the big picture of women's football, it's really
17:57
difficult to say that, for example, Brazilian women's
18:00
football is successful when you have one club or 234 clubs that
18:05
have a better structure. And of course, Corringians are
18:08
way ahead of the curve in terms of women's football than the
18:12
rest of the Brazilian clubs. And one of the things that we
18:15
have been trying to build in Brazil is a stronger league, a
18:18
stronger sense of you don't have to be a Corringians or outside
18:23
of Brazil to become a football player, professional football
18:26
player. It's important to have structure
18:28
all over the country and Brazil is huge.
18:30
Even the clubs that are not corrections, the strongest clubs
18:34
in Brazil are focused in the southeast and in the South, are
18:38
concentrated there. And some of the players are from
18:40
the northeast, from the center, West of the country.
18:43
So, you know, it's important to praise their good job because of
18:47
course they have been doing everything they can and they
18:50
have been winning so much and they have been doing great.
18:53
And of course, after the years and these players deserve to be
18:56
in the national team because they are the best or amongst the
18:59
best in Brazil. But at the same time, it's
19:01
difficult to say that, you know, Brazilian women's football is
19:04
growing because only Corinthians or only Corinthians in the hand
19:08
full of other teams are growing. But yeah, at the same time, it's
19:12
important for the National League to have big players,
19:15
national team players playing within the country.
19:17
So, for example, Christiani, she didn't get the call up, but she
19:21
was playing. She went back to the national
19:23
team after a few years outside of it with PS on tag.
19:27
And Christiani plays for Flamingo, who have been getting
19:31
calls from the fans to host some games in the American Union
19:35
Stadium. And, you know, it's really
19:37
important to have some big names in the National League so that
19:40
it draws attention to the club, it draws attention to the good
19:43
and the bad. And then we can build women's
19:45
football with them there. But at the same time, again,
19:49
even the Brazilian players who are not in Brazil, most of them
19:52
are in the United States. So they know each other.
19:54
They play against each other like half of the team at Orlando
19:57
for I think, for the weather. So they hang out all the time.
20:02
They play together. It's really interesting to see
20:05
that it's a really well connected team even out.
20:08
Side of the national team. I've joked with with Dino.
20:12
We had Angelina up here in Seattle for a little while.
20:16
I thought she looked good in stretches.
20:18
She had some injury issues that she had to deal with.
20:20
Then she goes to Orlando. Something tells me I'm just
20:22
going to make a hunch. I don't know Angelina, but
20:24
something tells me she probably prefers the weather in Orlando
20:27
compared to Seattle, WA up here, the Northwest.
20:30
Just a hunch. Yeah, absolutely.
20:33
And like, I interviewed Cappelli once after she moved to Orlando
20:38
and she was here in London in the UK and I was like, you'll
20:41
probably love the weather. Yeah.
20:44
She was like, yeah, that wait on the on the decision because
20:47
it's, it's sunny all the time. I imagine I've never been, but
20:51
yeah, I I love it. Oh.
20:52
We're going to have to definitely get you out here.
20:55
You mentioned the coach, Artie Elias, a couple of times.
20:58
What do you feel like are Elias's strengths, and maybe
21:03
also his weaknesses, considering the international format that
21:07
we're approaching here? Yes, I feel like one of his
21:10
strengths is the fact that he's a real winning coach, almost
21:15
arrogant in the sense of I don't like to lose, I don't want to
21:19
lose, I don't feel like we are going to lose.
21:21
Even in his first interview as the as the head coach of the
21:25
Brazilian national team, he was saying we have to stop saying
21:28
that Brazil are not the best team in the world.
21:30
If I'm here, I believe we can be, which, you know, you can say
21:35
that, but you know, we have to also be kind of realistic about
21:40
our conditions. But at the same time, yeah, he
21:43
knows a lot of these players, even the players who are not in
21:46
Brazil anymore, he has either coached them or coached against
21:49
them for a really long time in Brazil.
21:51
He's seen them grow up into the footballers they are today.
21:55
So he's really familiar with the history, with the importance of
21:58
football for Brazil. And one of the things that
22:01
people used to criticize Pia a lot was the fact that, you know,
22:05
she was so focused on the renovation of the national team
22:09
that she wouldn't necessarily, for example, give a proper
22:13
farewell tool for Mega or stopped calling up Christiania
22:18
without taking her to the Olympics, even though she's the
22:20
top scorer in Olympics. And these were some of the
22:24
criticisms that she had to deal with when she was in Brazil.
22:27
And of course, there is strong points and and weak points in
22:31
each one of them. But with a tool.
22:33
I think his main strength is the fact that he is a coach that
22:38
knows how to talk the language of football in Brazil.
22:41
He knows how to race to the players, the importance of
22:44
winning for Brazilians, the importance of, you know, are in
22:47
the Brazilian jersey. And of course, the fact that he
22:50
has either coached them or coached against them is really,
22:54
really important. And then I think his main
22:56
weakness is the fact that this is his first international
22:59
experience. And of course, we have to value
23:03
Brazilian football as much as we can.
23:05
But compared to other countries, compared to other leagues,
23:08
specifically, Brazil are way, way behind.
23:11
And when we look at a coach that only has experience playing
23:15
within Brazil or within South America, so, you know, the
23:18
Libertadores, we see the Brazil was still the main winners, Copa
23:21
America, Brazil still dominate quite easily in the continent
23:27
and especially Corinthians dominate quite easily within the
23:30
country. So for him, I feel like it's a
23:33
really difficult experience not to be favorites anymore.
23:37
And I don't know how well he's going to deal with that during
23:40
the Olympics in such a strong group with Spain, Japan and and
23:44
Nigeria. And you know, you have to
23:47
balance the confidence with some realism and and just be real,
23:52
understand that, OK, maybe we don't have great players to
23:56
talk. I Don about Machi from doing
23:58
what she does or something like that, but at the same time
24:00
trying to find alternatives and building that confidence within
24:04
the players. I think it's a really
24:05
interesting question is can a kind of singular coach, a coach
24:10
who's had that kind of success at a club level, can he actually
24:14
be a part of accelerating the culture of women's football in
24:18
Brazil? Him coming out and saying, hey,
24:20
we, we don't look at ourselves as underdogs.
24:22
We're Brazil that we're playing football like we should be
24:25
amongst the favorites here, look at our roster, things of that
24:28
nature. And so Julia, I came across your
24:30
work. You wrote a wonderful piece for
24:33
The Guardian about the importance of the 2027 World Cup
24:36
being hosted in Brazil. Anybody listening this show, you
24:40
should absolutely go to the Guardian, find that piece and
24:43
read it. But I was hoping you might be
24:44
able to give people a little preview of what they can expect
24:47
and kind of your your overarching thoughts around the
24:49
importance of the 2027 World Cup.
24:52
Yeah, so first of all, go to read the tags subscribe to
24:56
moving the goal posts it or in poll newsletter.
24:58
We talk about football from all over the world and I feel like
25:03
for me, first of all, for me as as a journalist who has been
25:07
covering women's football for a years now, I feel like bringing
25:11
attention to Brazilian women's football without just focusing
25:14
on the national team. But also thinking about the
25:17
structure, thinking about the eyes of the whole world will be
25:20
on Brazil for the next couple of years leading up to the World
25:24
Cup. So people are going to pay more
25:27
attention to how Brazil deals with women's football and it's
25:30
not great. I talked about, you know, the
25:32
difficult structures that we have in clubs.
25:35
I've written about really ugly stories, even in the Guardian,
25:38
really ugly stories involving coaches, involving really
25:41
important teams in Brazil. So it's really difficult.
25:44
Sometimes you kind of feel like you are talking to people who
25:48
are talking to the converted, you know, people who follow
25:51
women's football, people who already know about all of the
25:54
issues and about all of the problems and about all of the
25:58
joy. So now we are going to bring
26:00
more attention not only within Brazil but also from side of
26:03
Brazil. And at the same time, Brazil are
26:05
going to look really hard into what other countries are doing
26:10
to try to develop the game. One of the main points of the
26:13
Brazilian bid is they use the slogan and natural choice.
26:17
Like, you know, it's natural for Brazilians to be passionate
26:21
about football. It's natural for Brazilians to
26:23
be involved in football. And I'm doing a pH D and I
26:26
research women's football and media representation in Brazil.
26:30
And one of the interesting things is the fact that we so
26:33
much into the idea that Brazilians love football and are
26:37
passionate about football that no one questions how that
26:40
started, why women's football is not in the same level.
26:43
So just for context, a Brazilian President, a Brazilian dictator
26:47
in 1941, Ben's football, it became illegal for women to
26:51
practice football, rugby, fighting sports and other kinds
26:54
of sports. And that lasted almost 40 years,
26:57
so until 1979 when that law was revoked.
27:01
So when we think about the period, period when, you know,
27:04
Pele was winning three World Cups, Brazil was doing really
27:07
well in the men's national team, at the clubs, were growing into
27:12
things that people were really passionate about.
27:14
It's almost like a religion in Brazil to support a football
27:17
club. Women's football wasn't even
27:20
just suffering prejudice. People were actively fighting
27:23
against it. So now it's not necessarily
27:25
natural that men's football became what it became.
27:28
There was a lot of investment, a lot of attention, a lot of
27:31
support. So for women's football to, it
27:33
has to have a good environment as well.
27:36
And there's this idea that Brazilians, especially in the
27:40
early 2000s, like the 2007 Pan American Games, the 2007 World
27:45
Cup, the 2008 Olympics, the Brazilian players, you know, it
27:49
was our best generation. We had Mata Christian in Formiga
27:53
playing beautifully. We had a really strong national
27:56
team, were runner UPS in the World Cup.
27:59
You know, we had Olympic medals and still that was this idea
28:03
that Brazil needed to win something important in women's
28:06
football in order to be able to, you know, receive the better
28:10
conditions, the better pay everything that they had to do
28:14
in order to achieve these goals. So the idea in Brazil is quite
28:18
opposite of, you know, what it was supposed to be.
28:21
You have to win something to be able to have structure to
28:24
actually win something. And you know, back in the day
28:27
when women's football, you know, you had the US, you had Germany
28:31
and then Japan showing up like in 2011, some other countries
28:36
investing a little bit more. But in the 2000s, early 2000,
28:41
tens, Brazil could still fight. We had the natural quote, UN
28:46
quote talent and we had the best players in the world and we had
28:49
a really, really strong team. But it's not about just that
28:53
anymore. You also have to be really
28:55
tactical, technical. You have to have strong physical
28:59
conditions. You have to be fit all the time.
29:02
You have to be able to deal with the intensity of the game and
29:06
that's something that Brazil was left behind a lot in that sense.
29:10
And of course, after decades of prejudice, lack of investment,
29:14
illegality, everything, you know, it's really difficult for
29:17
Brazil to catch up right away right now.
29:20
But hosting the World Cup, it will be really interesting for
29:23
people to pay attention to Brazilian women's football, to
29:26
pay attention to the league, to have a stronger selling point
29:30
for, for example, bringing Flamingo to play at the Maracana
29:33
when they have Christiani playing for them.
29:35
And the club hasn't done that yet, which is I, I still can't
29:39
believe it. So, you know, to bring in more
29:42
people into the stadiums to watch the games, to fighting
29:45
more for better conditions for the players and for those to
29:49
come because, you know, we lost a really good generation.
29:52
Mata is going to her last Olympics, right?
29:54
She says she's going to her last Olympics right now.
29:57
You know, Christian was still fighting for a place in the
30:00
Olympics and they are study something years old and you know
30:04
the next generations they do the Sampayo Taciani, they are the
30:08
ones that had under 20 national team to play for, under 20 clubs
30:13
in Brazil to play for. They are the 1st generation.
30:16
They had like youth training, they had better conditions.
30:19
So playing the United States with great structure, or some of
30:23
them like Shady played in Europe with great structure.
30:26
So the next generations are building up on what these women
30:31
did 30 something, 40 something years old did for so long.
30:35
And it's really sad that we didn't get to win anything with
30:38
them, maybe the Olympics with Mata.
30:40
But it's really important to think about the future of
30:44
women's football in Brazil. And this World Cup will help us
30:47
build solid foundation for that. And I feel like even if it
30:51
inspires a few girls to pick up a ball and start kicking it
30:56
around, that's going to be amazing already.
30:58
Let's definitely hope for that and yeah, pretty surprising to
31:02
hear that 2 silver medals 2004, 2008 2nd place finished in the
31:05
World Cup 2007 and maybe one of the greatest players of all time
31:09
Martha and her prime wasn't enough to you know, round
31:12
everybody up and get some investment.
31:13
Sounds like you know there was some moving of the goal posts
31:15
down there as well unfortunately, but I want to
31:17
have a little bit of fun with this tournament.
31:19
So I know you mentioned quarterfinals is you know, maybe
31:22
where, where the hopes are. Let's get out of the group stage
31:25
tough group. We already mentioned that.
31:27
Let's imagine that Brazil earns a medal.
31:31
We were not going to say which medal, but let's when it's all
31:34
said and done, Brazil's one of the one of the teams on the
31:36
podium. What do you think the recipe
31:39
would be for that? Oh, that's a that's a difficult
31:43
one. I feel like if I had the answer,
31:44
I will be at a Yeah, I, I don't know, honestly, I feel like we
31:51
know that Brazil are not the favorites, not even close to the
31:55
favorites. But the time when they play
31:58
really well, it's all about connecting really well on the
32:01
pitch. So really good communication
32:03
between the sectors. The players help each other
32:06
quite a lot. So it's kind of this idea in
32:09
this philosophy that we've always had MPs and I try to
32:12
build more on that. But I feel like, for example, if
32:15
you look at the finalism that we played against England at
32:18
Wembley, you know, Brazil, they were communicating.
32:21
They considered a goal really early on, but they never stopped
32:24
trying. I feel like for Brazilians, not
32:27
in football but in life, it's all about never stop trying,
32:31
just keep going until the end and don't let yourself get
32:35
beaten up. If it's not working right now,
32:38
you may work in the next minute, in the next 5 minutes.
32:41
So I feel like that's the main thing, especially in such a
32:44
short tournament like the Olympics, you know, it's only a
32:47
few games, you only have a few shots to get to a medal.
32:50
It is possible and it's one of the tournaments where it's most
32:54
possible because there are so many factors involved that, you
32:57
know, maybe Spain have a bad day and we can beat them in the
33:00
group. That puts us well ahead into
33:03
lockout stages, maybe even first in the group.
33:05
If you get first in the group, you have a better chance that
33:08
playing a team that's not going to be as difficult.
33:11
There are so many factors involved.
33:13
It's crazy to predict it, but I love to say if it weren't
33:16
possible, no one would be routing.
33:19
No one would like football. I feel like football is soccer
33:22
for Americans. I feel like the beauty of it is
33:26
the fact that anything can be possible, anything can happen
33:30
and you know, we see it over and over again.
33:32
It's a really, really beautiful sport.
33:34
That it is. You'll get no argument here.
33:38
I want to ask about your PhD work a little more specifically,
33:40
if that's OK with you. Oh, sure.
33:42
So basically I'm researching the media representation of
33:46
footballers in Brazil. I mean the data collection
33:49
stage, which is really, really fun.
33:50
I get to talk some of the players.
33:52
I get to talk to some of the people that I'm a huge, huge fan
33:55
that I've seen play or that I really wanted to see play one
33:58
day. And basically I want to
34:00
understand how the players feel about the media coverage of
34:03
women's football in Brazil. It's not a huge media coverage.
34:06
It's not nearly enough. But at the same time, we see
34:10
it's growing so fast. And of course with the
34:13
announcement of hosting the World Cup in 27, it's going to
34:16
grow even more. You know, I want to understand
34:19
how the players feel about it, what they think has to change
34:23
what they feel. It should be better.
34:25
How do they feel if if there's any prejudice, gender based or
34:30
racial prejudice against them? I want to understand if they
34:34
feel comfortable talking about their sexuality in interviews
34:38
and things like that. So yeah, I, I'm basically asking
34:41
them a bunch of questions. Hopefully until the World Cup,
34:44
I'll have the results published somewhere to see for people to
34:48
read. But it's a really fascinating
34:50
topic. And as someone who works in the
34:52
media, it's quite interesting to see that, you know, the
34:55
perceptions that the players have of our job.
34:59
And sometimes I question myself all the time, my journalistic
35:02
work and the writing that I do, the events that I cover.
35:06
It's really fun being in Europe right now because of course, I
35:10
moved to the UK in 2022 when, you know, the EUR had just
35:14
happened when I started my PhD. So everyone was talking about
35:17
women's football. I've been to Champions League
35:19
finals, I've been to the World Cup last year and it was
35:22
incredible. It was one of the best
35:24
experiences of my life. I feel like women's football has
35:28
only been growing, you know, since I started a PhD, which is
35:31
really cool. And I feel really, really
35:34
privileged to be able to live that and also think critically
35:38
about it, not only as a journalist, but also doing
35:41
research that hopefully will bring better conditions, better
35:45
coverage for the players in the future.
35:47
So. That's fantastic.
35:48
We are very much looking forward to reading that.
35:51
Or have you on the show to talk about it.
35:53
Doors always open. You let us know once it once it
35:55
once you hit save, you've been print and it's done.
35:58
Please come back and we want to hear everything that you're able
36:00
to find out about that. Maybe in person.
36:02
The World Cup is there and the men's World Cup's there.
36:05
I also love men's football. I also watch a lot of men's
36:08
football. I was watching the EUR recently
36:11
and you know, the World Cup is going to be a fun one in North
36:14
America. I really want to go, yeah.
36:17
Who's got time for that? I'm really looking forward to 27
36:19
to be honest. Start saving up.
36:23
Brazil is expensive sometimes, especially traveling between the
36:26
cities, but it's going to be a fun holiday for any Europeans N
36:31
Americans who want to go. It's going to be a fun one.
36:33
That is definitely part of the plan.
36:35
We are on the hunt for any media company who wants to maybe help
36:38
us with some of those costs. I mean, I think we do a pretty
36:40
good show. So I think maybe they could help
36:42
sponsor some of our activities down there.
36:44
But the saving has already begun for Dino and I to get down there
36:47
as well. Yeah, amazing.
36:49
And if you need places to stay in Sao Paulo or Salvador, text
36:52
me. But the queue is really long, so
36:55
decide that right away. Fair.
36:59
Enough. You're a fountain of
37:00
information, Julian. This has been awesome.
37:02
As I told you, it's my life over the last two years now and it's
37:07
all I think about. Understandable.
37:11
Makes sense? Love it.
37:13
I'm just excited for the tournament.
37:15
Julie, I think you mentioned Germany briefly.
37:17
There's like some really fun Germany Brazil vibes.
37:19
Obviously football DNA through and through.
37:22
Both teams started the World Cup with a huge win.
37:25
Germany was six nil, Brazil was four nil.
37:27
And then both got bounced on some bad luck later in the group
37:30
stage. And I think both now are
37:32
entering this Olympic field with kind of high hopes.
37:35
And I think that the thing about Brazil specifically that kind of
37:38
has me a little excited is when they look good, they look really
37:41
good. It might just be like a short
37:43
stretch. You're just like, Oh my God,
37:44
what do you do with this team? You know, I don't like to get
37:47
too crazy with the predictions, but I think Brazil and Germany,
37:50
there could be some some synergy there brewing where we might see
37:53
both of those teams kind of rise up here at this tournament that
37:55
I'm really excited about. Yeah, absolutely.
37:57
And they are going to the Olympics like feeling that they
38:01
need to recover and quickly. And the Olympics, it's great
38:04
that they have the Olympics in such a short period after the
38:08
World Cup, because then it's not about changing everything.
38:11
It's about doing what you can to try to build on such a poor
38:16
performance. And with Germany, like, you
38:18
know, we've seen the difference in the quality of the women's,
38:22
not the quality of the women's team, but like they change
38:25
generations. We've seen players come and go.
38:28
We've seen a younger generation starting to become this
38:32
powerhouse again. And I feel like Germany, Brazil,
38:36
the US are in such an interesting position because
38:39
they are transitioning generations at this point.
38:42
And it's really good to see because we have some younger
38:44
players, but we also get the chance to see some of our older
38:48
favorites to say goodbye to them, to be them farewell.
38:52
So it's been an interesting couple of years for women's
38:55
football, especially these these countries that have been
38:58
powerhouses over the past 20 years trying to continue in this
39:02
position. And when you see, for example,
39:04
Spain growing so beautifully, England as well, also for the
39:09
Olympics, you know, when you look at the fact that, for
39:11
example, England are are not going to be playing, Sweden are
39:14
not going to be playing. It's going to be really
39:16
different to what we've seen so far.
39:19
And it's going to give a little bit of space for these things
39:22
that are not necessarily favorites in the World Cup to
39:25
try to grow into favorites in the Olympics.
39:29
And of course, happy to see Australia playing again because
39:32
they were brilliant in the World Cup.
39:34
I feel like they can do a lot in the Olympics as well.
39:37
So yeah, it's going to be a really, really good tournament.
39:40
I'm really excited. Absolutely.
39:42
I mean, just a completely stacked field, 1:00 to 12:00.
39:46
We had wonderful journalist Samantha Lewis from Australia on
39:49
the show, and she has mentioned that Australia is ranked 12th in
39:53
the world. And she said, so I guess that
39:55
means we're might be the 12th best team in the tournament.
39:58
I mean, I just don't even know. I don't even know how to
40:00
calculate that. Like, OK, Australia's the
40:02
weakest team in the tournament. Like that doesn't even seem to
40:04
compute in my mind. You talked about the death group
40:07
before and I honestly cannot see a death group in this.
40:12
Everything is that good because you know, even Groupe, we
40:15
haven't talked a lot about it, but Colombia are really strong,
40:18
France are really strong. Canada have not been really
40:21
strong, but they are really strong.
40:24
Yep. You know, it's not easy to go to
40:26
the knockout stages in either of these groups.
40:28
And even Spain that we think are, you know, given that they
40:32
are going to be first in the group, it may not happen.
40:34
They may fumble against Brazil or Japan or Nigeria.
40:38
If they play one bad game, anything can happen.
40:42
So you know, I won't turn off my TV because I don't think I'll be
40:45
able to go to every single game. And of course, Olympics,
40:48
anything is happening, but I will be with one eye in the
40:52
football the whole time because it's going to be so fun.
40:54
Well, Julia, we're hoping for Brazil to make a deep run, so we
40:58
have an excuse to invite you back and then talk a little bit
41:01
more, talk a little bit more Brazilian football.
41:03
But with that said, I think we did it.
41:04
It's been another episode of Into the Channel.
41:06
Thank you, thank you, thank you for watching, listening, liking,
41:08
subscribing, just plain hanging out as we get prepped for this
41:12
massive tournament this summer. Remember to like if you liked
41:15
and subscribe or follow into the channel, YouTube, Spotify, Ale
41:17
podcast, wherever you like to watch or listen links to all of
41:21
our socials in the show notes. Big thank you to our special
41:24
guest Julia Bellaston Dodge and to my Co host Mr. Grant Engel.
41:29
I appreciate you man. Likewise, buddy, thank you
41:31
again, Julia for joining us. And you know, I don't know the
41:35
Portuguese way to say beautiful podcasting, but I am looking
41:39
forward to Jogo Bonito in the Olympics this year.
41:42
So thank you again, Julia. Thank you so much for inviting
41:45
me. It was a really fun chat.
41:47
And of course, call me, text me. Hopefully we can talk a little
41:51
bit more good things about proceed.
41:53
It's going to be fun. Excellent.
41:54
We'll take you up on that and thank you to everybody for
41:56
watching. We will see you guys very soon.