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Her Child was Kidnapped by The State | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: So so.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: My name is Jerm. This is Jerm Warfare, the battle
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: of ideas. Kate Markland, thank you for joining me in
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: the trenches.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you very much for inviting me, Jerm.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Kate, the pleasure is all mine.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: So I.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Didn't know who you are or what your story is
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: until a week ago when I was in the at
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: the UK column 20th anniversary event and you spoke and
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: you shared your story and I was swallowing lumps and
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: I suspect it's because I've got two kids, one of
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: whom is a month old, as you know, and I
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: think what you spoke about is obviously very close to
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: the bone. Now, I know your story, but for the
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: sake of those listening to this, we'll have to go
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: through your story again and Before we do that, I'm
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: just going to play a clip that you played at
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: the event just to start off the conversation and then
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: everything will make sense a little bit later on if
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: that's okay with you.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Gabriel, the author of the book, The Adventures
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: of Gabriel, where I go fighting terrifying sea creatures with
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: my trusty sidekick, Platy the Platypus. We go finding hidden
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: treasures and mythical creatures like phoenixes, but getting shipwrecked along
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: the way, but then being rescued by a whale shaft,
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: and then swimming all around the world with a blue
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: whale to see all.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: The major ports. Where will you go on your adventures?
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: What will you do?
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: Who would you go with?
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I can't wait to hear your stories.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Now, over to my mum.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: All right. So that is your son, Gabriel. And as
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: I said, everything will become clearer throughout the course of
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: this conversation. But just quickly, Kate, who are you and
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: why am I talking to you?
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: I'm Kate, mum to Gabriel. I used to be a
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: physiotherapist for 20 odd years and run my own clinics.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Now I'm Gabriel's scribe, co-author, and Inspire I suppose of
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: other people to create the world that they would like
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: to be in through the power of fantasy fiction and story.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, but now what why why are we talking about Gabriel?
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Gabriel's 12 now the week before he turned 10. He
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: was removed from my care here in the UK by
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: armed police And The guilt, the grief is indescribable. There
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: was a knock on the door on a Friday morning.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: They were there in their gear, body cams, tasers. They'd
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: come for him. And there was nothing I could do.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Gabriel stood his ground. He'd done martial arts since he
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: was tiny, since he was three or four. And he
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: used to go to a class with teenagers. And he
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: would have to level up when he went to the
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: class with teenagers. And he did the same to these policemen.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: He leveled up. No, no, no. He really stood his
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: ground with them. And I suspect it's not going to
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: be until he's an old man that he actually realizes
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: as a nine-year-old he did that. One of them grabbed him.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: And he knew from martial arts how to get free
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: of one grown man's grip. So he did. Two of
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: them grab him. There's nothing we can do. He's in
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: his pajamas. It's the beginning of December. It's icy. They
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: drag him down the drive. on the ice, they've got
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: their van blocking the drive, they open the back door
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: of the van and they've got a cage and they
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: put him in the cage. And I'm asking, what have
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: I done wrong? They say nothing. I'm asking, what's Gabriel
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: done wrong? They say nothing. They have a court order
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: to remove Gabriel from my care on the conjecture that
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: I'm an unfit mother. And there is nothing I can do.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: And I think the sort of closest analogy that I've
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: scene that we mentioned is like on the David Attenborough
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: programmes or whatever when you see the orcas come for
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: the seals and that's the way to just describe it
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: the predatory attitude of these police officers they were not
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: listening to me they were not listening to Gabriel they
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: asked me did our home county Gloucestershire know what was
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: going on I said yes but nobody is listening to
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: us and they took him regardless they didn't stop to
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: make a phone call there was no humanity in these
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: guys at all and the only way I can sort
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: of describe it is either like the child snatches in
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Chitty Chitty Bang Bang or like when you see the
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: orcas come for the seals and you're the mother seal
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: and your pup's taken and you're powerless to do anything
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: about it um and there's no way we could have
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: had this conversation you know we wouldn't have got this
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: far even six months ago um About six weeks after that,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, there are court hearings that are occurring that
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: I'm not even getting an invitation to. Stuff's going on
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: that I'm not even being informed of. Christmas is cancelled,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: his birthday's cancelled, New Year's, it's all cancelled. And about
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: six weeks later, there was a court hearing and Gabriel
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: and I are given an hour a week on FaceTime.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: And I'm mocked. I'm mocked that apparently I'm clearly highly dangerous.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: On what grounds? If it's a sunny day, we're going
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: for a bike ride and I might ask you if
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: you want chocolate or vanilla ice cream for tea. But
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: apparently I'm highly dangerous. And I'm mocked when I'm given
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: an hour a week to speak to my son. I'm
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: mocked at how am I going to speak to a
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: 10-year-old for an hour. And I can't share anything else
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: about what occurred in the court process other than I
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: sat there and I knew I can speak to my
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: son for an hour. And you have no idea how
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: much he loves a story Prior to this, I'd been
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: starting to research how on earth am I in this situation?
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: How is this system so broken? And I'd been handing
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: the lawyers and the social workers like papers, government papers
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: about harms and the failures in process. But that clearly
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: was what started, I started to realize it was my
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: literacy and my critical thinking that made me highly dangerous
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: because I was understanding that process is broken and they
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: didn't want me to see that. I'd be called things by,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: one barrister told me I was a conspiracy theorist because
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: I'd found these government white papers. What else was I called?
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: There was a problem that I was an educated mother.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: That was another barrister and that was a female barrister.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: They don't want you to critically seek and go and
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: find out that their world is dysfunctional. They don't want
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: you to know that. Anyway, we're given this hour a
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: week on FaceTime and it was just a, I just
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: knew to read to him. I just knew because he'd always, well,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: little children do. Your two boys do. They just love stories.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: And when he was tiny, when he was the age
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: of your eldest, we'd just read in bedtime until he
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: could read no more. And then I'd put an audio
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: CD on. But when I got to the part, I
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: just can't read anymore. And in the car, we'd always
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: have audio CDs until 2020 when I decided I'd better
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: educate him by listening to German Warfare. prior to that
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: it was yeah we had all these audio cds in
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: the car and um and even once he could read
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: his own books when i don't know he gets to
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: six seven he's able to read his own books he
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: still wanted a bedtime story so i would just read
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: to him something that he wouldn't necessarily choose to read
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: himself because that's exactly what my mum had done for
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: my brother and i she had read to us all
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: the way until the end of junior school we'd had
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: a family bedtime story then we'd go to our own
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: rooms and read our own books and so i was
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: kind of just carrying that on. But of course, there'd
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: be nights when I was just too tired to read.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: And so we'd just make up a story. So this
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: was normal to us. This shared enjoyment of storytelling was
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: just normal part of our existence, which I don't think
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: we'd realize was anything unique because it was just what
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: we did. And it was what happened to me as
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: a child. And I said, my mum used to read
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: as a family bedtime story, but her father, my grandfather
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: used to orate monologues to us. So I don't think
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: he ever read a book to us, but he would
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: just recite monologues, monologues, monologues. So I guess we were
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: just repeating this habit. So when we get into this situation,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: I just know immediately I'm shell-shocked. I know Gabriel's going
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: to be shell-shocked. I wanted to protect him from my anger,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: my pain, my grief. I needed him to know that
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I loved him desperately and not to give up. And
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: at no point during this have I been restricted in
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: how much I can write to him. So initially I
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: was writing to him every single day, just making just
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: a postcard, scribbling a doodle on one side and a
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: few words on the other side. I just thought, you've
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: got to know I love you. And then I also
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: knew from my career as a physiotherapist that as long
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: as somebody doesn't give up, you find a way through.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: But it's very, very hard to motivate somebody. You can
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: inspire them. It's very hard to motivate them. So you
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know what we're going to do, Gabriel, but
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: just don't give up on me and we will find
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: a solution. I've no idea what it's going to be.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Don't give up on me. And... so anyway, I went
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: to his bedroom and I found a very illustrated book
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: by Michael Mopergo called The Puffing Keeper. And again, I
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: just picked the one with the most drawings in because,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: you know, as he got older, it doesn't mean I
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: don't like pictures in my book still. I still want pictures.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: So I just got this very illustrated Michael Mopergo book
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: and we started reading it. It was a kid's program
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: on when I was a child called Jackanory where a
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: celebrity would read a story and you'd look at the
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: pictures together. And that's basically what we were doing. We
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: were reading this Michael Mapurgo book and looking at the
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: pictures as we were reading it. And this goes on for,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know, about four or five weeks. We finish
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Puffing Keeper. And then we get a whiteboard and a
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: pen and just start playing, you know, Noughts and Crosses, Hangman,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: a few games on that. And I get an illustrated
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: copy of Treasure Island and we do exactly the same. Now,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: the little boy in Treasure Island is called Jim. By
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: the time we finished Treasure Island, my father, Gabriel's grandfather,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: is called Jim. We're a bit sick of hearing about
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Jim's heroics. I just don't know. It was a whim.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: We'd literally finished Treasure Island. I hadn't got another book
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: lined up. And maybe it was because, say, the protagonist
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: in Treasure Island is called Jim. I just said to Gabriel,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: shall we make a story where you're the hero? And
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: he came back instantly, yes. And started telling me, I
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: want to defeat a sea monster. And he knew all
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: the core concepts. He knew immediately just on that invitation.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: And again, I wasn't really conscious about what I was doing.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: I can see in hindsight what I was doing. But
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: I was sat at the kitchen table. And this is
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: what I would say. It was an hour every Friday night,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: 7 o'clock at the kitchen table. But we were just
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: the other side of an iPad rather than sat at
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: the kitchen table together. And I just start scribbling down
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: what he's telling me, literally like I would have as
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: a physio. If you'd come to me as a physio
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: and you were telling me about your back pain, we
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: don't write a paragraph. We just scribble notes. We capture
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: the notes and then recite back what we've understood and
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: fill in the gaps. So, you know, what's the sea
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: monster called, Gabriel? What does it look like? What colour
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: is it? How was it ever formed? So you start
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: filling the gaps in. Oh, I don't know, Mum. I
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: don't know what it's called. So let's brainstorm that this
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: week and we'll think about that next week. But I'm
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: just capturing the notes. And I then have this idea
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: because I've By now, I'm writing to him every week
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: rather than every day because initially, like I said, I
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: wrote every day until we got to the point where
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: he said, Mum, I know you love me. You don't
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: need to write to me every day. Once a week's fine.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: So then I have this idea that he's telling me
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: his story. I'll type it up in the week for
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: him and extend it a bit and make sure I'm
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: drilling in this metaphor of just don't quit, don't quit,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: don't quit, still not knowing what we're going to do.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: And we'll do it a little bit like Dickens, where
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: it builds up over a period of time. So that
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: was just a concept I had. It was a very,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: very private project between the two of us. Never, ever
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: thinking this was going to go beyond my laptop and
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: the two of us. So that's what I did. I
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: typed up his first story from the scribbles I'd taken.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: And then I read it back to him the following Friday.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: And he added his edits. You know, we now got
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: a name for the sea monster. We now know how
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: the sea monster, well, I came up with suggestions about,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: you know, is it a Leviathan and a Kraken or something.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: It's formed by the flash of these Titans and it
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: terrorizes the town and it's got two heads and, you know,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: all of this. And so, right, I understand you see
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Monster Gabriel and Platy, who's been his favorite cuddly toy,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: the cuddly platypus that was charged with can-do spirit from
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: when he was a tiny toddler. So Platy becomes like
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Robin to his Batman, sort of his sidekick. And we
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: didn't even realize when we were doing this that we
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: were describing everything that Patty communicated in the stories with
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Plattie being mute, because Plattie to us was a cuddly toy.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: So we were describing the main sidekick as having, still communicating,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: but being mute. And it was only when somebody edited
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: it for us, the editor highlighted to us, you know,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Plattie's mute, and we hadn't even clocked, because he was
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: this real cuddly toy charge we can do. So I
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: think I mentioned to you that my illustration skills are not...
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: your caliber so the first um the first um story
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: I did some sketches and I showed them to a
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: friend and the friend said you can draw better than
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: that and I was livid I was like don't you
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: know how much pain I'm in I stormed out the
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: room I was like I know I can draw better
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: but it's got I've got it down for retirement I
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: can't possibly do that right now so um turned to
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: AI art, created some images. And then so we got
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: in this rhythm of Gabriel would tell me a story.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: I'd type it up, produce a selection of images. The
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: following week, I'd read it back to Gabriel. He'd add
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: his edits and he'd choose which pictures he liked. Over
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: a period of about eight weeks, we've got six short
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: stories and my desktop is a mess of short stories
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: and all of these AI images. So I then put
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: it into one Word document simply so I could tidy
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: up my desktop. And I flipped the camera around And
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: I showed Gabriel this. And his response was immediate. Mum,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: it's a book. It's a book. It's a book. I'm like, Gabriel,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: on what planet is this a book? Well, that's what
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: I'm saying in myself. But because of the constraint we're
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: in and the diabolical situation we're in, I can't, I'm
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: very conscious of not imposing myself, my doubt, my fears
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: on him. Mum, it's a book. I'm thinking, okay, I'll
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: go to the local printer and I can get a
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: couple printed. Mum, it's a book. And again, because of
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: the situation we're in, and by now I've lost all
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: faith in lawyers and the whole process we're in. I'm
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: thinking it's probably better money spent getting this self-published than
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: it is spending it on a lawyer because nobody then
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: can take it away from you. Nobody can then take
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: away that you've become a little published author of short
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: stories as a result of this situation. So, okay, I'll
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: contact a friend who knows how to self-publish. And that's
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: exactly what I did. And at the same time, I
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: sent these little short stories to a very old family
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: friend in the UK who'd been a former head teacher
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: and school inspector and her big thing had been kids'
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: creative writing. And I sent it to a child psych
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: that I just knew on LinkedIn in the US. Both
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: of them came back saying the same thing, saying, get
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: this out now because there's nothing where it's a child's
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: imagination inspiring other children. So we did, we self-published it.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: And I remember the guy that helped me do it,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: it's called Kevin. And when I gave him this document,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: I was just full of my own hangups about, you know, Mrs. Robinson,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: my old head teacher, has had a field day on
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: all my writing with spelling and grammar and who on
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: earth am I to be handing over a Word document
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: that's covered in all these typos to be published. But
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Kevin very kindly managed my nerves. And also I'm full of,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: you know, the judgment that I've been on the receiving
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: end of, It's like, I don't know. Is it okay
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: to do this? But I'm like, well, why not? So
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: we get our little book of short stories out, out
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: of this constraint. And I would never have gone to
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: that extent of publishing our little book of short stories
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: if it hadn't been for our constraint. It would have
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: stayed on my laptop. I'd have taken it to the
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: local printer and got a handful printed.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Just hang on, Kate. I'm jumping in, if you don't mind,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: but All of this was done over FaceTime?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: All of this done over FaceTime, an hour a week
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: on a Friday night. I obviously type it up in
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: the week in my own time, if you like, but
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: all of it's done an hour a week over FaceTime.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: There was a point where I recognized, again, back to
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: martial arts, and I realized the strength of connection and
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: relationship Gabriel had with his martial arts teacher was never,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: ever leave him. I thought, on average, you probably spent
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: an hour a week with him. And then I realized
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: I'd learned to swim in an hour a week. And
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: it really made me conscious that if you're very intentional
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: with an hour a week, that hour a week can
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: be highly impactful. And that then, I suppose that intention
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: helped us create a rhythm, a sort of, not like,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: We'd have a bit of chat. We'd sort of, I
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: don't know, it's not like a business meeting at all,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: but we had a focus. We had something we were doing.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: We were co-creating. We had a connection of a purpose
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: to our calls. It was intentional. It was intentional. But yeah,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: it was all done in an hour a week over FaceTime.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: It still is.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that connection that you speak of really sat with me.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: When I saw my boy when I got home, I couldn't,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: There was just something magical in that moment when he
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: smiled and he said daddy and I hugged him thinking
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: that the state has taken away your son. So what
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: happened next? So you've now printed the book.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: We now print the book. And then there's a series
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: of blessings, Gem. So we've got the book self-published on Amazon.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: That's what we know how to figure out how to do.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: And I then end up at Cheltenham. This is a
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: town in the UK. It's got a very big literature festival.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: And our book comes out the weekend of Cheltenham Literature Festival.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: And I don't really know what I'm doing, but I
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: just go along to it. And I've got a wristband
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: to see whatever's not sold out. And I end up
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: meeting Helen Fielding of Bridget Jones. And, of course, I'm
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: of Bridget Jones' generation. And she says exactly the same
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: as the previous two people had, that what she thought
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: she'd done as magic and also Jane Austen had done
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: as magic was they were writing for their contemporaries. So
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: the message becomes exactly the same from these three different
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: experts is that this writing, horizontal writing, writing for your
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: contemporaries or creating for your contemporaries. And yes, I'm Gabriel's scribe,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: but this writing for your contemporaries is where magic happens.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: And Helen Fielding was quite clear as a 50-year-old, the
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: most recent book she'd written was for 50-year-olds. It was
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: not for 20-year-olds. 20-year-olds should be writing for themselves. So
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, Gabriel, you have done something. You are
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: onto something. And it's all around about the same time.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: A friend, very, very dear friend, runs a networking thing.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: He says, come on, Kate, you're going to come and
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: talk about that book. You don't need to talk about
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: the story behind it. Just come and talk about that
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: book just for 10 minutes. And he was a very
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: dear friend. There was no way I was going to
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: let him down, and I did. And I just said
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: to myself, you're going to cry, Kate, but you do
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: that on the train on the way home. Just get
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: through that 10 minutes. And I did. And all I
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: was not saying anything about the story behind the story,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: just this is what my son and I did on
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: a Friday evening at the kitchen table. So everybody in
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: the room is thinking. I don't happen to mention there's
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: a screen and all this diabolical stuff that's gone on.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm getting asked repeatedly, how did I do it?
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: How did I do what? Well, how did you extract
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: your son's story? I'm like, what do you mean? I can't,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I cannot comprehend the question. I'm getting asked this by mums, dads, grandparents, teachers,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: a retired social worker. The retired social worker wanted to
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: follow up with me afterwards to find out how I'd
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: done it. And I'm like, You guys should all know
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: how to extract. I can't comprehend the question. You're all
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: dealing with children. How do you not know how to
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: hear their story? And then it dawned on me that
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: clearly our shared enjoyment of storytelling, our normal, wasn't everybody's normal,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: and also that the process I'd used, I realized was
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: exactly the same as you do as a journalist or
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: as a podcast host, but it was also exactly the
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: same as I'd done as a physiotherapist, was tell me more,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: ask an open question, and then closed down as required
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: and I was just capturing it typing it up and
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: having this verbal handshake and that was what had driven
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: me absolutely bonkers about all these state agencies there was
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: never ever a verbal handshake in terms of that checking
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I understand the meaning of what you've just said which
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: is exactly what Gabriel and I were doing every week
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: having this verbal handshake you know I've I've embellished the
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: story about I've added a bit more correct it edit
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: it and you know make sure we're on the same
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: page um So then it's like, okay, well, clearly there
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: is a process that we're using. And then the question becomes,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: and again, this very dear family friend who was a
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: retired teacher is really loving what we're doing. Come on,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: we've still got some friends who are headteachers. Let's see
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: if this works. Let's see if what you and Gabriel
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: have done. And she believes in me. She's my mum's
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: old school friend. She doesn't care what the judgment I've
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: been on the receiving end. She isn't interested in that.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Come on, let's see if what you and Gabriel have
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: done works with other children. So she arranges the first
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: school workshop. 69 to 10-year-olds. We ask them, would you
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: like to be the hero of your own story? This
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: is in a city in a town in the north
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: of England called Bradford. They all say yes. Nearly 500
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: kids later, we've asked, do you all between ages 9
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: and 11, do you want to be the hero of
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: your own story? They all say yes. Follow exactly the
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: same process. One of them's a storyteller. One of them's
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: a scribe. So they're only having to do one executive
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: function at a time. If you're the storyteller, all you've
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: got to do is show your best imagination. If you're
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: the scribe, all you've got to do is capture the notes,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: capture the concepts, and nothing gets lost. Then it gets
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: up-leveled and clarified into a verbal handshake. And by the afternoon,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: each of the storytellers are absolutely itching to type up
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: their story and put their hands up. Can I have
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: another piece of paper? We're going in with no educational bias.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: We don't care what labels the kids have been given,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: and the teachers can't believe what's going on. So When
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: we remove all the barriers of the blank page, yeah,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: the kids are loving being the hero of their own
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: story and creating their own fantasy fiction. So we prove
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: that it works beyond just Gabriel and I.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: I just want to jump in quickly. So I want
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: to read you something. And this is quite important because
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: obviously those listening will have questions. And by the way,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: you don't have to answer everything. I know that there
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: are things you can't speak about because you don't want
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: to compromise anything at the moment. But let me read
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: this to you. Instead of investigating those concerns, quote unquote,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: a family court judge reframed Kate herself as the problem,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: ruling that she was an, quote, emotionally unfit parent, which
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: is what you said earlier. Listen to this. No clinical
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: psychologist or psychiatrist was involved. No validated psychological instruments were used.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: And her GP records covering everything from age 20 show
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: no mental health referrals, no medication, no clinical history of
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: any kind. And the finding was made by a lawyer.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Everything is wrong here.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's all true. I've made my GP records public.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: There's literally nothing on them. No mental health, no antidepressants,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: no antipsychotics, nothing. No alcoholism, no history of drug use,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: no criminal history, nothing. And then in 21, I kind
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: of had this... sort of risk assessing things, I took
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: myself to a clinical psychologist as a defensive action and
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: asked for the most rigorous screening from this professor consultants
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: of psychology. I asked for the most rigorous screening he
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: had available so that I then had from a consultant
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: professor of psychology, a report and a screening showing my
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: mental wellness because we'd anticipated that this could happen.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're referring to what's called the MCMI-3, BDI-2
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: and the BAI.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's about four hours of screening.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it says you had the results. In the clinician's
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: own words was the clear absence of any form of
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: psychological difficulty, quote unquote, with no symptoms or history that
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: would preclude at least good enough parenting. So obviously what's
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: going on here is the state is acting as a
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: draconian totalitarian entity. And this is something that is a
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: problem across the world now. We're seeing more and more
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: of this. And why I'm saying that is because what
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: you're talking about fits into a pattern. Listen to this.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: The Ministry of Justice's own 2020 expert panel report exposed
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: systemic problems in private law, children cases, with domestic abuse
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: allegations completely minimised. In June 2025, the Public Accounts Committee
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: accepted your evidence and Parliament's Justice Committee concluded that the
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: family courts are causing harm. The UN has raised human
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: rights concerns about UK family courts.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right. My evidence has been accepted three
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: times at a national level, once to the Parliamentary Accounts Committee,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: again to the Justice Committee and also to Social Work England.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: So every time there's been an opportunity for me to report,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: to submit a report in nationally about the harms of
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: the family courts I have. And every single time my
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: report has been accepted in terms of the quality of
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: what I've submitted. And every single time the conclusions are
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: that the process is harmful, but there's no opportunity for redress.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: It's just like living under the mafia and the mafia
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: know exactly what's going on. And it's in black and white.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: It's on their papers. But you hand those reports to
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: a barrister. You get called a conspiracy theorist because you've
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: seen past the emperor's new clothes.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: The thing that really breaks my brain, Kate, is who
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: is the state to come into your home like this?
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: And how do you even fight the state? Let me guess,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: by writing stories over FaceTime?
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: By creating your own world of fantasy fiction. that helps
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: you escape the tyranny of your reality. And then what
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: we're finding is that that world that we created is
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: now starting to affect our reality. So it's what we did,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: but in hindsight now, and it's really just been in
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: the last few weeks, I've realized that that escapism that
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: we created into our fantasy fiction world did allow us
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: to escape the tyranny of our reality. And yeah, the
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: flip side of it is, is that world that we
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: created is now affecting our primary reality in a positive way.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: And I also want to add, you didn't mention this
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: at the UK Column event. You've gone through this entire
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: process as a single mom.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I've had friends help me. There have been many,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: many angels and blessings along the way. There's many people
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: that have come and walked. Some walked the whole thing
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: with me. Some walked sections of it with me. But yes,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: that's right.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: But I mean, that doesn't make anything easier.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: If, Kipling's if, Jerm. Nearly every single morning I say
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: the first verse and I get myself out of bed
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: and I go for a walk. And I used to
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: write down, I went back to a paper diary and
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: I'd write down what the one thing was that I
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: had to do every single day. And literally in the
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: beginning it was eat your dinner. Tick. Right, you've been
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: for a walk. You've eaten dinner. You're alive. Because I knew,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: once I'd understood, after that experience of them taking Gabriel
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: like that and then the following court hearing, I understood
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: the level of malevolence I was up against and that
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: there was no negotiation. And I realised it would all
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: be very, very convenient for all of you if I
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: put myself under a train. Well, I'm not going to
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: do that. And I guess in all the time I
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: was telling Gabriel, just don't quit, don't quit, don't quit, darling,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: I was also telling myself, don't quit. You don't quite
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: know what you're going to do, but just don't quit.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: And I guess I'd seen enough miracles in my career
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: as a physiotherapist that when people didn't quit, that you
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: thought whenever, you know, in the initial presentation, thought we're
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: never ever going to see home again, but then somehow
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: they would. I just hung on to that thread. And Gabriel,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: unwavering love and belief in me, I think also helped
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: save me. Never, ever, and still, still will tell me
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: how much I love him. He's never, ever doubted how
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: much I love him. I just think, God, Gable, given
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: what we've been through, how can you have so much
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: certainty in my love for you? And then once the
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: first book came out, I was like, Mum, now use
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: all your skills. Use all your skills. So... I'm like, well,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: that means I've got to go back into the mindset
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: of being an athlete. So that means I'm going to
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: go back to a rowing boat, get my head down.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: I was here, tunnel vision, just here and keep going, Kate,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: keep going, Kate, keep going. And I guess because I
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: used to row, the finish line is always behind you.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: You can't see it. Eventually you cross it, however much
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: it hurts. Never, ever did I think I was going
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: to have to go along this. Never, ever did I
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: dream I'd have to go this far. Never.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: So you published one book, but you actually ended up
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: was three so i i disrupted your flow there so
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: take me back to the.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Books seriously any i've said this but if you need
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: a business manager ask a 12 year old so we
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: get the first book out right i go helen field
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: and we start to line up some school workshops meantime
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: gabriel already decided book two right book two we're going
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: to see if we can bring back a skeleton of
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: a dead dodo man that we find in the caves
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: of coral cove that's the world the world of coral
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: cove And, oh, are we, Gabriel? Yeah, ma'am. We're going
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: to go and visit all the endangered animals around the
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: world and see what wisdom they've got. Oh, are we, Gabriel? Yes, ma'am.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: This sounds like it's a whole book, Gabriel, not lots
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: of short stories. Yeah, ma'am. Gabriel, I've never written a book.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Never mind, ma'am. I'm like, Gabriel, you don't understand. I
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: haven't written... These short stories we've just created are the
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: most I've written since I left school. I was a physio.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: I don't write. And so, okay, right. If we're going
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: to do this thing, Gabriel... we better make a story
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: arc so I know what animals you want to go
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: and see. And, you know, we just plot it out
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: so I understand where we're going. And then in my mind,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking I need a plot to hang this on because,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm not an experienced author. So I think, okay, well,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: if we're going around the world to see all these animals,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: we'll have around the world in 80 days. And at
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: least it's got some sort of, I've got a sort
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: of sense of direction. And that's what we did. I
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: was so glad of it. We plotted it out. He
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: chose his endangered animals that he wanted to go and see. Yeah,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: so we got the concept clear. All right, we better
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: get on with this then. And we know our process
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: of write a chapter, edit a chapter, write a chapter,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: edit a chapter, truly pictures to match it. And during
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: the time, book two was really, really dark time for me.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: We lost contact for the whole month of December. So again, birthday, Christmas,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: New Year, all gone. And I knew I was being provoked.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I knew not to invite the state back into this
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: situation in any shape or form. I just had to
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: hang on in there. And because we'd plotted this out,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: I just kept typing, kept typing, kept typing, kept typing,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: and just was trusting that when we got reconnected, and
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: I had no idea when that was going to be,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: that we would pick up. And at some point during
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: this period, Gabriel and I had agreed that we've got
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: a TikTok channel and a YouTube channel in the name
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: of the Adventures of Gabriel. I barely use them, but
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: if we need to, I will go on there. So
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: if we ever lose contact, I will start posting on
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: YouTube and TikTok. Then you can still have me come
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: into your front room Um, so yeah, so book two
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: and in book two, so book one, I'm adding the
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: metaphor of don't give up every story that's got this
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: metaphor of don't quit, don't quit, don't quit. But book two,
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: I'm starting to want to tell him more about the world.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: So this dodo he wants to resurrect ends up being
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: called hope. And it really was about that. It did
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: end up being about the resurrection of hope between us. And,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: you know, they go to visit the sea otters in Alaska.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: The mode of transport is portals. Jeez, Gabriel, I've never
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: read Terry Pratchett. I've never read fantasy fiction. How does
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: a portal work? So I get a lesson in how
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: a portal works. All right, okay.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You've never read Terry Pratchett?
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: No, no, I know.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Kate, I'm ending the conversation here.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I know. I've got some serious work to do in
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: now entering this world of fantasy fiction, given that I'm
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: now scribing it. Or maybe it's better I haven't because
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: I can't copy anybody's because I don't know it. So, yeah,
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: I'd sent him this sheet of all these modes of transport,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: thinking if we're going around the world, I've just printed
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: off the internet, you know, all the 30 different modes
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: of transport. Never mind that sheet, man. We're going by portal.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, Gabriel. What does a portal even look like?
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: How does it work? Anyway. But it was things like,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: would they go to see the sea otters in Alaska?
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: And I wanted to make sure that I'm adding in
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: that nothing's what you see seems on the surface and
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: add curiosity. So with every character that Gabriel's chosen that
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: we want to visit, I'm trying to add a bigger
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: metaphor thinking, I had to get to the point, if
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: I never ever see you again, you can read what
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I've written or what we've written and at different stages
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: in life, pick up the messages that I'm trying to
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: tell you and never doubt that your mum loved you
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: so book two was hard it was hard work um
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: and then yes so by the time we've we we've
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: finished book two it's not right we're doing a book
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: a year now we've agreed a book a year until
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: he's 18 and that point he can write his own
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: he can sure write his own well before that but
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: anyway we've agreed to a book a year till he's
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: 18 so three trilogies and the third one in this
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: one will be out this weekend um and the third
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: one is um Gabriel's paternal family are British Pakistani, and
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: the third one is set in India and Pakistan, and
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: it's very, very loosely based on Kipling's Kim.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: They're all on Amazon, right?
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're all on Amazon, and they're all on our website, theadventuresofgabriel.com
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: as well.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: I just want to point out, in the images that
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: were in the little clip with him in the beginning
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: of this conversation, I noticed Cape Town.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, you did. Yeah, yeah. He wants to swim around
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: the world. he wants to it's it's it's like he's
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: i don't know i sometimes think it's my little boy
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: living under house arrest the situation that we're in but
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: it's me that he's always protecting they're not going to
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: you know um and but in his imagination he's gone
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: we've gone everywhere we've gone to cape town we've gone
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: to tokyo we've gone to sydney we've gone to Swim
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: with dolphins in Scotland or wherever else we've gone. Yeah,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: we've gone to India. We've gone to Pakistan. So in
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: his imagination, he's stretching everywhere that he wants to go.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: We've gone to Bhutan. We've gone to Russia. We had
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: a nice hockey match across the Bering Straits. It's... So his... Physically,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: he's restricted. In his mind, he's traveled far, far further.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Just hang on a sec. Sorry, Kate, you said physically
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: he's restricted. So you haven't physically seen him in what,
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: three years?
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: I saw him for 90 minutes a few months ago. Okay.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: He's in the UK, right?
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: He lives a mile away from my mum and dad's
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: same town, Cheltenham. I used to live in that town.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: But you aren't allowed to make a real-world connection with him?
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: We live under the constant threat of my arrest. And
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know what other threats he lives with. because
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: it's really clear to me that Gabriel is constantly protecting
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: my safety. So I don't know what threats he lives with.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: The threat I've lived with is of my arrest.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: What have you learnt throughout this process?
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, jeez, Jan. I'm braver than I ever, ever realised
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: I was. And that.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Some of the fear I've had, because it was Brian
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Garish that pointed out to me that I was being
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: controlled by fear, that we'd created something wonderful, but I
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: was being controlled by fear. And some of my fear
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: was rational and some of my fear was irrational. And
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: I had to start breaking that down. So I had
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: to sort of break these invisible cages. I'd sort of
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: break one cage of fear and then realize, oh, that's okay.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Now I can break the next cage of fear. Oh,
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: that's okay. So obviously the level of legal fraud is
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: just abhorrent. And the fact there's zero accountability is completely
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: and utterly disgusting. And I've gone to the highest levels
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: I can in the country and there is no accountability.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: So that is completely disgusting. And this constant threat of
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: my arrest, and I've had the police in my face
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: so many times, but there's never an arrest warrant. There's
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: never any grounds for it. It's all just like literally
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: military grade psychological warfare. And nobody's got the ability just
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: to say, sorry. Nobody can just say sorry. There's all
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: these harms reports. Just say sorry. We got it wrong.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: And their willingness to criminalize a mother and child. It's
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: stuff of Handmaid's Tale. People ask me what happened. That's
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: the easiest answer I give. I lived in Handmaid's Tale.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: They wanted the womb. End of.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know how you've done it. Yeah, I don't
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: know how you've done it. I mean, when I was
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: in the UK, I was missing my boy. And that
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: was just.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: It's the, I think we've got to a point now
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: where the trust between, well, we have got to a
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: point where the trust between Gabriel and I, we had
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: a big conversation just a couple of months ago. He
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: asked me, he grilled me, mum, what does it mean
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: when you say I trust you? And he's 12. I'm like, well, Gabriel, look,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: I can't worry about whether your football boots are clean.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: I can't worry about what you eat for dinner. I
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: can't worry about whether you've brushed your teeth. I can't
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: sort your haircut out. All these things that mum's fussed about,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: I can't think about whether you've done your homework. I
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: can't fuss about any of this. All I can ask
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: you each week is how are you? And then we
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: carry on with, you know, we have a chat about
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: how we are, what we've been up to in the week,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: and then we carry on with our world creation and
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: where that's going and usually go, you know. And so
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: I just have to trust that. that you're going to
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: take every opportunity that you can, that you're going to
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: do your best at everything you can. But of course,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: you're going to make mistakes. You're a small boy. It's normal.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: We will do. But you'll not beat yourself up over that.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: You just pick yourself up and get on. I have
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: to trust if you're invited to somebody's house for tea
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: that you know how to say please and thank you.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: And as I'm saying, and we're having this, and he
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: really grilled me about 20 minutes about what it meant
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: for me to trust him. And I thought, I don't
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: know that I'd be having this conversation with you if
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: we hadn't been in this situation. Because throughout the creation
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: of all these stories, huge amounts of emotions have been
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: processed and questions have come up, but have all been
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: in the world of fantasy fiction. Now Gabriel's bringing that
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: into reality. At the end of book three, he's created
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: an all-terrain vehicle, and it seemed obvious to him, he
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: chose the name, that it was going to be called Trust.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: And I think we've now got to this point where
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: the trust between us is unbreakable. And just... Just this
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: last couple of weeks, it was sort of turned around
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: in terms of Gabriel was asking or we were having
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: a dialogue about what it meant to him to trust me. So,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: you know, the conversation reversed. And honestly, when I showed
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: him the clip of the UK column and all those
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: people giving him a hug, he was beaming. That's why,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: you know, my birthday gift from him was to say
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: that's what it means for him to trust me, to
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: see that little video, that he knows I'm doing my best. So...
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: It has been dark. It has been really, really dark.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: And the grief has been phenomenal. But there's things like
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: he'll put himself forwards for the school swimming gala. And
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: then he'll go and win the backstroke. He knows I
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: used to race backstroke. And it's things like that. It's
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: like you're doing your best, not just for yourself, but
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: you're also showing you're doing your best. You're respecting yourself
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: by the fact you've actually put your name forward yourself.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: And you're respecting me by the fact you know you're
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: doing the best in the stroke I used to race.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: So it's, there's things like that where you just conscious
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: this mutual respect and this mutual trust is, is unbreakable.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: They thought they were going to break the lap of
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: the mother to create the slave as William Lynch says,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: but actually it's the opposite.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: There's something quite profound though about this whole journey. I'm
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: trying to think of how to express this. Instead of
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: focusing on the negative. and pessimism and defeat, you and
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Gabriel have done the exact opposite.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Can do. Can do. It's the only way you... Can do.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: You've got to focus on the can do. You've got to.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: There was a point, like I mentioned, the turning point
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: when I sort of realized about if you're intentional within
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: an hour, there's a lot you can do. And... Then
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: there was another point when I understood that this was occurring.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: I was not alone. That was a real shifting point.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: When I realized I wasn't alone and I realized this
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: was happening to babies and toddlers. And then I lent
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: into gratitude because I realized, right, okay, Gable, you know
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: your name, so nobody can change your name. Well, they
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: can try to, but good luck. You know I'm your mom.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: You know where your granny and granddad live. You know,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of knowns. And it's like, if I'm
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: ever with a friend, when I speak to him, they'll
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: say hello. And it's like, he knows my friends. And
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: so there was a lot of knowns. And I started
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: to realize, actually, I've got a lot to be grateful for.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: And the other thing I started to become grateful for
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: was I was threatened with him being trafficked into care.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: And when you start to see the amount of money
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: per child's head, it's just been reported in the last
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: few months in our financial times, it's like 340,000 a
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: year per child taken into the care system. So it's
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: huge money stripping a child from their family. And then
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: I had to get grateful that actually Gabriel hadn't been
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: trafficked into care and that actually knew where he was.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: And it was like, the more I could get grateful
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: for what we had, not that it was grateful for
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: our situation, but I got grateful for what we had, again,
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: some of the It has been brutal. There's no underestimating
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: the brutality of it. But things made, I could function better.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And then there's really dystopian things I've done to, you know,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: I still don't have a car. For ages, I literally
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: just had a mobile phone that was lived in a
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: safe that I only used for a banking app. The
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: things I've done just where I've known I need to
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: feel safe because if I feel safe, I can function.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: I can do that one thing that I've written on
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: my piece of paper to do every single day. and
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: now that one thing over time has got bigger and
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: now it's more than one thing but I just don't
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: know I just knew you have to keep moving forward
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: you just have to keep going but I did have
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: to get to the point of if I never ever
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: see you again Gabriel I know I've brought somebody up
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: into the world and I'm not saying you're the archangel
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: Gabriel but that you know right from wrong that you've
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: got a you know your mum loved you and you
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: know never to give.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Up I think I think you will see him. I
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: think if you're talking about the light at the end
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: of the tunnel, I'm just thinking about what you've been
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: saying and what you've got, what three, no, hold on,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: what's the number? 23 months so far, right? If I'm correct,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: of one hour a week on FaceTime.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: More than that. More than that. So he was taken
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: 1st of December, 23. So we're nearly at three years.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, three years, right? So three years of one hour
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: a week on FaceTime, if you would, If you just
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: think about this realistically, it could have destroyed your relationship
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: with Gabriel. But instead, you have a best-selling book series, right,
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: which has reached schools and kids around the world. And
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: if I'm correct, a court tried to break your connection
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: with Gabriel and he responded by saying, mum, use all
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: your skills.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then … Mum, tell me which continents we've
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: had press in. Right, we haven't done Australia yet, Mum.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: So we've had now a press on every single continent,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: but that's him driving, except Antarctica. So I'm leaving that
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: one to you. Yeah. So they not only underestimated me,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: they underestimated him. And he is starting to get quite...
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, he'll be 13 this year. He's starting to
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: get quite... They just underestimated him. And they underestimated that
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: small boys grow up. And as small boys grow up,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: the power dynamic shifts. So he now telephones me. We're
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: in the habit he'll pre-book a call. But he'll be like, Mum,
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: I'm going to telephone you on Wednesday night at 7 o'clock.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: All right, darling. Telephone me. I'll speak to you at
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: 7 o'clock on Wednesday. So we're now speaking usually two,
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: sometimes three times a week. But... And there is a
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: shift in the power dynamic. But what Gabriel is quite,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: he's obviously got a command of his environment. I was
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: very grateful. He's obviously gone to senior school now. And
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: when he started at senior school, there were children he
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: knew from athletics and Cubs and things I'd taken to
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: him previously. But what I sense and he articulates is
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: his fear is for my safety. that he's sacrificing his
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: freedoms to keep his own faith.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: But what I was getting at is, when you said earlier,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: even if you never see him again, I kind of
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: think it's, yeah, exactly. That's what I'm getting at. I
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: think that what you've done by creating this book series
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: and reaching people all around the world, you've created a
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: very interesting kind of paradigm in which seeing the obstacle,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: massive obstacle as an opportunity, I think is going to
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: win in the end for you. I mean, you're getting
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: more and more publicity around what's going on. The UN
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: has expressed, I mean, the UN, for what it's worth,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: don't like the UK's family courts. Parliament is, the British
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Parliament is well aware of what's going on and I
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: think is on your side to a large degree. And
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: Even mainstream media are starting to talk about it. So
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: the awareness is growing.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: The police and crime commissioner live on the parallel road.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: So the police and crime commissioner for Gloucestershire live on
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: the parallel road to Gabriel. And he admitted in a
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: report last year, an audit last year, that Gloucestershire police
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: were failing children. and our program our process of giving
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: children a voice through storytelling aligns exactly with his recommendations
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: his wife is the counselor for the ward gabriel lives
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: in but again neither of them nobody seems able to
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: pick up the phone to say to me okay go collect.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Gabriel And also, let's not forget something. Gabriel's voice is
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: getting stronger as he gets older. And he's becoming more influential.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: And although he's still a young teen at the moment,
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: he's going to become an adult. So in a few
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: more years, if this thing still continues, it will no
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: longer be you alone.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: Well, as of today, it's no longer me alone. Hmm. So, Jerm,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: we commented.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: No, but you know what I mean. You know what
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: I mean. I mean that he will be legally able
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: to fight.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: And that was another point in all of this, that
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: they did this to him too old. You know, when
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: they've done this to babies and toddlers, and I've seen
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: the videos of the harms are exactly the same, the
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: violence of how they take them. This predatory orca attack.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: But they did this to Gabriel the week before he
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: turned 10. And he's a bright boy. He's not going
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: to forget this. And that level of trauma is going
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: to define your life. And I was quite determined if
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: this is going to be life defining for us, Gabriel,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: this is going to define our life in a positive way.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Because again, 20 years as a physio in rehab, I've
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: seen enough effects of adversity be negative. So I knew
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: if this is going to define us, we've got to
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: find a way of turning this pain into purpose. We've
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: got to, because otherwise it's going to, it's absolutely crippling.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting. You can't see here, but I've
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: got a bookshelf and I have a lot of books
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: from people who've been on my show. And I expect
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: to have Gabriel's books on my shelf soon also. And
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: there's a book by Peter Brigham. I don't know if
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: you've ever seen any of my interviews with him.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: I have listened to one of your interviews with him, Jerm.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, thanks, Kate. So he... published a book called, I
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: forgot it here, COVID-19 and the Global Predators. We are
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: the prey. And that is exactly what you're talking about.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: We are the prey.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And we forget that humans are apex predators. We
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: completely forget it. And what we were on the receiving
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: end was an apex predator attack. And I had this,
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: when we started defining the character in the book, I
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: was conscious of, I was conscious of this quite early on,
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: even though I still thought it was only going to
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: stay between Gabriel and I, was you've got to be
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: able to define your own character, Gabriel. You, you've got
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: to be able to, and just, and again, this is
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: back to the physio in me, isn't it? I've got
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: to find a way to empower you. You've got to
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: own your character. You've got to own who you're going
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: to choose to be to step off the page in life.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: Rather than have this whole thing define you, you've got
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: to find a way of defining yourself. I was, I
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: was conscious of that in the very beginning. Um, Because, yeah,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: the only way Mother Seal can cope if there's an
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: orca attack is trusting that she's taught her pup to swim.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: So we all got to start making sure we're teaching
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: our pups to swim because the orcas are out there
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: and they are highly predatory and they do attack. And
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: then I started to realize really simple things I'd learned.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: done it's like even when he was like six or
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: so if we got the bus or the train I
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: mean he couldn't read the he couldn't figure out the
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: train station but I would try and show him right
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: can you see what platform we've got to get on
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: just constantly trying to empower him so that he can
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: I just thought by the time you're 18 if you're
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: going to university you need to be able to cook
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: a spaghetti bolognese you know it's just but I have
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: had this sense of which again to me is just
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: normal but I think with with as you say we're
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: living in this dystopia where we're far, far, far, and
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: especially in the UK, far too complacent and far too
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: trusting of the state. And then you're on the receipt
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: of an orca attack. If you haven't taught your pup
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: to swim, you've got nothing. I will forever be grateful
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: for that martial arts teacher because, again, he was critical
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: to the empowerment of Gabriel and of self-respect.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: This has obviously been a very dark journey for you
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: over the last few years, Kate. And you were talking
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: earlier about writing one item to do each day. Yeah.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: When you wake up now, is there a bit more light?
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Do you have more items that you write down?
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely. Completely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No,
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: there's a project plan now, Jo. When I was a physio,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: I ran my own clinics. I know how to run
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: a small business and we're back onto that sort of thing. And,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: but I've still know that I do best when I
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: get out of bed and I exercise first thing. Don't
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: particularly worry about the, you know, I'm starting to put
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: a bit more pressure on myself in terms of time distance,
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: but I know get out of bed, move your body,
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: have your breakfast. You've got your list. You know where
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: you're going. You've got your direction.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: Have you received a lot of support outside of the UK?
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: I've had most support from India. In India, I've won
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: a Women's Leadership Award. I'm an icon. I've got icon
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: status there. We've been on the front cover of magazines.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: So I've had a lot of positive press in India.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: And I've found that the former colonies have been most
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: ready to receive our story. So we've been in the
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: education press in Canada, in Pakistan. I've had a lot
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: of podcasts in the U.S., U.S. women's movement. Seem to
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: really appreciate my work. Nigeria picked up on us. You
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: guys now. I'll have to get one of those scratch
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: maps and post it to Gabriel so we can start
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: scratching off every country we've run press in. But yeah,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: but India in particular has really received as well. And
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: like I mentioned, we really appreciated at Christmas time, I
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: was on the front cover of a magazine in India
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: and Gabriel said, where Gabriel's story, about one boy's story
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: and oral storytelling, was told in Pakistan's education press. So
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: we were being celebrated across both sides of this highly
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: militarized border at the same time, me in India and
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Gabriel more specifically in Pakistan. I honestly thought, surely we've
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: done it now. Surely somebody's going to pick up the
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: phone to me and say, Kate, go kill Gabriel for Christmas.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Invariably, somebody will ask this question. So I'm going to
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: ask it anyway, and you're free to answer if you want,
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: but Your ex-husband, what has his involvement or engagement with
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: this whole thing been?
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: He's Gabriel's father, and it's Gabriel's story. It's not mine
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: to tell. Gabriel's got to live with this for the
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: rest of his life, and his profile is raising. I
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: sat and listened to Rick Astley the same year that
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: I met Helen Fielding. And Rick Astley was a 50-year-old
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: man and his parents had both deceased by the time
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: he decided to tell his story. And he'd had the
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: permission of his siblings. Now, Gabriel hasn't got siblings he
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: needs the permission of. And I sat there and I
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: listened to Rick Astley and I thought, yeah, I've got
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: to do exactly the same for Gabriel and allow Gabriel
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: to decide when he wants to tell his story. And
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: he is far too young and will still be too
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: young at 18 to understand what the impact of that is.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: And it's his choice whether he ever tells it, whether
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: his father and I are still alive when he tells it.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: So I've got to keep that private for him. But
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: I desperately wish the paternal family would celebrate what we've
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: created and get behind us and that the family the
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: extended family in Pakistan would really greet this with great
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: positivity and love to help spread the impact it's having
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: across Asia, because that is where we're getting the most media.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: Is Gabriel going to watch this video or listen to
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: this conversation?
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: Most definitely, because I mentioned you to him. I said,
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: do you remember that South African we used to listen
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: to in the car? Because you'd grizzle. Why can't I
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: have my stories? Why do I have to listen to
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: this podcast? Because we do, Gabriel. And he said, sort of.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: And so I said, well, yeah, we will. I'll play
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: it to him. And he'll probably recognize your voice when
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: he hears it. Oh, yeah, I remember that guy.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Well, in which case, if you are listening to this, Gabriel,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: just understand that you have a huge amount of support.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: And in my view, you are a rock star.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, bless you, Jim. Thank you.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: Kate, now let's come in for the landing. How can
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: my audience follow your story, books, etc.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: My name's Kate Markland, M-A-R-K-L-A-N-D. You can find me on
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: LinkedIn or my website is katemarkland.com. But the book series
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: are all at theadventuresofgabriel.com and you can find the books
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: there and more about us there.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: And of course on Amazon.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: And of course on Amazon, but you want to come
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: to our website and get them directly from our website.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: Kate Markland, it was a pleasure chatting to you a
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: week ago. in person. It was a pleasure chatting to
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: you right now over the internet. I'd like to say
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: thank you for joining me in the trenches.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: Thank you ever so much, Jim. I've got to say,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: do you mind if I use your magic item? Thank
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: you ever so much, Jim, for inviting us and for
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: listening to us, for hearing us when we felt so silenced.