Latest / Math Therapy / Teachers have trauma too w/ Brittany Hege

Transcript

Teachers have trauma too w/ Brittany Hege · Math Therapy

• 0:02
  Brittany Hege: I think every teaching experience is also a learning experience.
• 0:06
  Brittany Hege: Like I've never been in a classroom with students where I've not learned something about the math that I'm teaching
• 0:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it.
• 0:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist.
• 0:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do.
• 0:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.
• 0:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, I am so excited about today's guest because here's how I've been feeling lately and maybe you can relate.
• 0:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: There are so many new ways that teachers are being told to teach their students these days.
• 0:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like the frameworks, the pedagogies, the this, the that.
• 0:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's so overwhelming and I mean, think of how many different people I've interviewed on this podcast who have developed a new approach to teaching.
• 0:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like even I'm here peddling this whole math therapy thing to whoever I can get to listen.
• 1:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I guess, hi, I'm the problem, it's me?
• 1:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, well my point is most of us who are teachers, were never taught the way we're now expected to teach.
• 1:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: And even that keeps changing.
• 1:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what's more, there seems to be little to no support for teachers to help them figure out all of these new ways to best deliver content to students.
• 1:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so many teachers have their own math trauma and are nervous enough already, like it's too much.
• 1:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: But today's guest is here to help us all.
• 1:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Brittany Hege is an incredible math educator and content creator, and we chatted about the ways education can evolve without leaving either students or teachers behind.
• 1:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: She also explains how shame in the classroom can lead to anxiety and the healing power of curiosity and community.
• 1:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: And now I've been talking for way too long, so here's Brittany.
• 1:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, you are in a way so different from the rest of my guests because I, I realize that I rarely speak to my guests about math.
• 1:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, we're often talking about math trauma in students, we're very rarely talking about math trauma in teachers.
• 2:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: And what I love about what you do is your whole thing is like, teachers these days are expected to teach in a way that they weren't taught, and that can be so triggering, I don't think these are your words, but in my mind, I'm like, that can trigger their math trauma.
• 2:19
  Brittany Hege: For sure.
• 2:19
  Brittany Hege: I very clearly remember my first year teaching, sitting at the front of the classroom, and I think I always like thought I was good at math, like I'm just a problem solver, but I remember standing at the front of my classroom, I had a fifth grader sitting in front of me and I don't know the problem like nine times 12 came up.
• 2:37
  Brittany Hege: And I was doing the whole teacher thing of like"who knows it?" to buy time so I could figure it out in my head.
• 2:42
  Brittany Hege: Because I was like I didn't know it.
• 2:44
  Brittany Hege: And I've got my phone up there behind my water like having to put it in the calculator, like I don't identify as somebody who necessarily had like"math trauma", but clearly I had a lot of beliefs and was not as strong of a math student as I thought I was.
• 3:00
  Brittany Hege: And so I was having to teach in a way that was so uncomfortable to me.
• 3:04
  Brittany Hege: I was learning the math right alongside my students.
• 3:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: So do you think that learning the math right along our students is something that we should expect to do as teachers?
• 3:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like is that the thing we need to get comfortable with?
• 3:16
  Brittany Hege: Yeah, I think so.
• 3:18
  Brittany Hege: I mean it's really helpful when we're doing math outside the classroom and we are engaging in experiences where we're deepening our own understanding.
• 3:27
  Brittany Hege: Like, I think that's really helpful.
• 3:28
  Brittany Hege: But I also think we should expect to be learning right alongside our students.
• 3:33
  Brittany Hege: There are going to be students who do things in a way that is completely different than how I would have done it.
• 3:38
  Brittany Hege: And that piques my curiosity of like, okay, why does this work?
• 3:42
  Brittany Hege: How is this similar to the strategy, like, I would have taken?
• 3:45
  Brittany Hege: Is this an approach that's going to last for them like long term or do I need to kind of like guide them in a different way?
• 3:52
  Brittany Hege: So I think every teaching experience is also a learning experience.
• 3:57
  Brittany Hege: Like I've never been in a classroom with students where I've not learned something about the math that I'm teaching.
• 4:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love that you said this because I'm now just thinking about last week when I taught this grade eight kid, I was teaching him ratios and it started occurring to me that he was totally not picking up what I was putting down because he didn't know how to divide.
• 4:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I, I say to him, well, hold on a second, what's 10 divided by 2?
• 4:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: And he was like, I don't, I don't know.
• 4:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then I was like, Well, how many groups of two are in 10?
• 4:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then he'd be like, two, four, six.
• 4:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, trying to figure out what he was doing.
• 4:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, so hold on a second.
• 4:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: When I say the word divide, you're completely blanked out, but when I phrase it a different way, and I, it took me like 10 minutes to be like, oh my God, you're skip counting to get to the number.
• 4:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then when I said to him, but instead of counting five groups of two, couldn't you do five times two?
• 4:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: He was like, I don't get what that means.
• 4:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: The whole point is at the end, he said to me, thank you so much for teaching me.
• 4:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, no, thank you for teaching me.
• 4:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, I've never seen anyone process this question in this way.
• 4:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then I also said you know, it's my job as a teacher to figure out how to help you understand this.
• 5:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not your job to understand it just the way I'm teaching it, like straight up.
• 5:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's not it, that's not the power dynamic.
• 5:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: But it made me think of what you just said of being like, well, you can't possibly anticipate every single way a student is going to think in your classroom.
• 5:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And maybe back in the day, we were taught in a way that there was one way we were expected to do something, and the teacher at the front of the room knew that way.
• 5:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: They were an expert in that way.
• 5:26
  Brittany Hege: Yeah, well, I think the way, at least for me, the way that I learned math, it was not this creative thing that invoked curiosity.
• 5:35
  Brittany Hege: It was just like, this is the one way to do it.
• 5:38
  Brittany Hege: And if you don't get this one way, F.
• 5:41
  Brittany Hege: You know, like that's your grade.
• 5:43
  Brittany Hege: And it was so funny.
• 5:44
  Brittany Hege: I was talking to my husband the other day because he will tell you, and he's an elementary school administrator, he would tell you like math was not my thing.
• 5:51
  Brittany Hege: He still is intimidated by math.
• 5:53
  Brittany Hege: And we were talking about something because I was trying to prove something for Instagram.
• 5:57
  Brittany Hege: Um, so we were having a math discussion on Instagram.
• 5:58
  Brittany Hege: And so, you know, I was asking him, how would you figure out this problem?
• 6:03
  Brittany Hege: And he was, explaining it, and it was just really creative, it was beautiful number sense, and the thing that he said after that is he said, I was never good at math, but the strategy I just told you, like, that's how I coped.
• 6:15
  Brittany Hege: And I was like, no, like what you just told me is not a coping strategy, that is what we are trying to develop in students now.
• 6:23
  Brittany Hege: And so that's where I think it was like, just such an aha moment for me that like, the goal for how we were taught math was to like, do it this one way to do the algorithm, do the procedure and anything else than that was viewed as coping, or at least that's how he internalized it.
• 6:40
  Brittany Hege: And now I feel like it's kind of the exact opposite.
• 6:42
  Brittany Hege: Like we want the multiple strategies, the multiple representations, multiple approaches, and that's what's like praised and highlighted, or at least that's what we want to be praised and highlighted and not just the one path and no flexibility outside that one path.
• 6:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what's really interesting is like Mix and Math, which is what you created, has kind of stepped in to like solve this problem, but I, I have to back up because I was thinking about the statement you made, again, your website says it's been our experience in working with thousands of teachers that most did not learn math the way they are expected to teach.
• 7:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was sitting with that and being like, is this specific to teachers?
• 7:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, can we just pause?
• 7:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's look at like doctors.
• 7:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 7:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or like, let's talk like literally any profession.
• 7:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 7:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're going to use doctors because like everyone's had a doctor probably.
• 7:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Were they treated in the way they are expected to treat patients?
• 7:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if not, is the difference that they went to school and were taught how to treat, like, do you know what I'm saying?
• 7:41
  Brittany Hege: Yeah, that's a really good question.
• 7:42
  Brittany Hege: And you're probably right, because medicine evolves, right?
• 7:45
  Brittany Hege: And so, because of that, they learn something new.
• 7:49
  Brittany Hege: My assumption is that maybe they are educated on it.
• 7:53
  Brittany Hege: And then they have to change their practices.
• 7:55
  Brittany Hege: I think the missing piece is that, for me, in my experience, there was no, like, education.
• 8:02
  Brittany Hege: The gap between, like, how we were taught and then how we're expected to teach.
• 8:05
  Brittany Hege: That, like, missing section is that education.
• 8:08
  Brittany Hege: Like for me, I had one math methods course in college.
• 8:12
  Brittany Hege: I was an elementary ed major.
• 8:14
  Brittany Hege: So yes, I took the calc and pre calc or whatever college courses you take.
• 8:18
  Brittany Hege: But then I had the one math class.
• 8:20
  Brittany Hege: So for one semester, I was taught how to teach math K6.
• 8:27
  Brittany Hege: And that's not enough.
• 8:28
  Brittany Hege: Like, that's the only education I got.
• 8:30
  Brittany Hege: Any other education I have to change my practices has been learning that I've done on my own.
• 8:35
  Brittany Hege: And so, I don't know if it's the same in the medical field, but I assume they're being educated of like, research has said this, here's how we change our practices accordingly.
• 8:45
  Brittany Hege: I don't know.
• 8:45
  Brittany Hege: Maybe that's an assumption.
• 8:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, but I, I, this is, this was my thing because I was like, okay, we're not gonna like, I know neither of us are experts in like, teaching teachers, but I, this has been a conversation that's been happening for so long.
• 8:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I'm a high school math teacher, like I did my teacher's ed for high school math, we were never, first of all, we didn't do any math, obviously.
• 9:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: So there was, there was no math being done.
• 9:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: We had to like, hand in lesson plans and stuff, but like, that was kind of it.
• 9:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm kind of like, I don't understand where teachers are supposed to learn this.
• 9:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, are we basically saying like, okay, you went to school for X number of years as an elementary and high school student, you were taught in a way that is no longer like en vogue to teach anymore, so you can't teach that way, but don't worry, you're in teacher's college where you're not going to learn how to teach at all.
• 9:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: But then when you go into the classroom, please find your own resources and figure it out?
• 9:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like literally, is that what's happening?
• 9:36
  Brittany Hege: I mean, that was my experience.
• 9:37
  Brittany Hege: That's really what it felt like.
• 9:39
  Brittany Hege: And I had a fantastic experience in college, I love the university that I graduated from, and their teacher ed program is great.
• 9:46
  Brittany Hege: And ultimately, cause it's really what, three years that you're working in your major?
• 9:50
  Brittany Hege: You cannot prepare a teacher for every subject level, every grade level, over six grades, seven grades.
• 9:56
  Brittany Hege: That's just impossible to do.
• 9:58
  Brittany Hege: And actually it's really two years because that last year you're student teaching.
• 10:01
  Brittany Hege: So it's just not going to happen.
• 10:02
  Brittany Hege: But yes, that was my experience.
• 10:03
  Brittany Hege: I went into it thinking like I was really prepared and I learned all of the like best practices and things.
• 10:10
  Brittany Hege: But when it got down to actually like, what am I going to teach today?
• 10:14
  Brittany Hege: I did not know how to do that.
• 10:15
  Brittany Hege: I did not have the understanding needed to do it.
• 10:18
  Brittany Hege: Like I knew how to structure my lesson and all of that.
• 10:20
  Brittany Hege: And so some people will say like, I don't know, some people put a lot of emphasis on the pedagogy, and I absolutely think that is so important.
• 10:27
  Brittany Hege: But I also feel like there has to be time for teachers to explore the math that they're teaching.
• 10:32
  Brittany Hege: One, because I think it increases, their excitement and their passion for what they're teaching.
• 10:37
  Brittany Hege: But it increases their confidence and allows them to apply the principles that they're working on, as far as you know, all of the work that Peter Liljedahl is doing.
• 10:45
  Brittany Hege: Like, if they have the content knowledge, it just makes it a little bit easier to apply the other stuff.
• 10:51
  Brittany Hege: I don't know, that's just, again, my experience, the teachers that I'm working with, that's what I'm seeing.
• 10:55
  Brittany Hege: But the fear of the math that they're teaching is really real.
• 10:59
  Brittany Hege: And it, I think it gets in the way of being able to apply other things, other practices in the classroom.
• 11:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I think that's such a powerful statement.
• 11:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, I keep saying powerful, it's like the word, every interview I'm like, that's so powerful.
• 11:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: So anyways, it was though, it was a very powerful statement.
• 11:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I say that because like, you know, this is a podcast about math therapy and healing math trauma, not just for students, but for educators and anyone who's listening.
• 11:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I always think a lot of teachers genuinely are scared of the math they're teaching, they're not confident around it, but it's usually because there is like a math trauma and a lot of anxiety around math.
• 11:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: So how do it's the chicken or the egg.
• 11:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: How are they going to learn the math that you're, you're there being like, look here, let me help you understand fractions better.
• 11:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: But they kind of have a mental block of being like, but I can't.
• 11:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you find that with teachers when you're kind of like, look, I'm providing you with all these resources to understand the math deeper?
• 11:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you ever find that there's a block where they shut down before they even get there?
• 11:53
  Brittany Hege: So I think I'm in a little bit of a unique situation in that I work with teachers who come to me.
• 11:58
  Brittany Hege: And so they are open enough to say like, I need help, I'm here.
• 12:03
  Brittany Hege: And so that's definitely like a privilege to be able to work with people who are already like bought into the idea that there's more for them to learn and they're willing to get uncomfortable and step into that.
• 12:14
  Brittany Hege: So I don't necessarily have to like push back on that a whole lot, but I will say, I think that, one thing that's like really core to me and to Mix and Math is I think we can teach teachers and create learning opportunities for teachers in a way that make them not feel bad about themselves.
• 12:34
  Brittany Hege: Or the fact like, Oh, you didn't know this yet, like you're a teacher, where you were supposed to know this.
• 12:39
  Brittany Hege: Like, I think we can just come in in a very I don't know if like humility is the right way, but like not talking at them, but just inviting them into this learning experience.
• 12:48
  Brittany Hege: And being like, oh my goodness, this is what I discovered today, I cannot wait to share it with you, and that's automatically you're going to get very different buy in than"here's the best way to teach this and you're not teaching it the best way".
• 13:00
  Brittany Hege: And like, I believe that's so core to me.
• 13:02
  Brittany Hege: And I actually really think
• 13:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love.
• 13:04
  Brittany Hege: that's like a problem in professional development right now is it's a lot of like, this is best practice, you're not doing it, versus inviting them into exploring it alongside you.
• 13:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 13:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I, First of all, I love that you said that and it's validated how I've been feeling because, well, you know all my timetables drama, and I've been feeling lately that like things are, are so polarized because, okay, so like very quick story.
• 13:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I did a segment on live TV, this is after the initial drama, being like"I'm back to talk about how there are so many different ways to get math facts stored in people's brains.
• 13:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: And one of the things I want to talk about are the amazing patterns in the nine times tables".
• 13:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's a four minute news segment.
• 13:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I show the nine times tables finger trick.
• 13:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I show that every digit adds up to nine.
• 13:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: All the hosts are like oohing and aahing.
• 13:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: They all hate math, and they're like, Oh my God, this is amazing.
• 13:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I leave.
• 13:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Great.
• 13:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cool.
• 13:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I get two emails.
• 13:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: The first email is from this woman being like, I hated math my entire life, I'm 80 years old.
• 14:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was so into this, this is so cool.
• 14:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, does this trick work for other digits other than nine?
• 14:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, what we want! We want mathematical curiosity.
• 14:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: We want wonder.
• 14:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what we want.
• 14:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then I get an email from a teacher being like, I just want to let you know I've been following you for years.
• 14:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was really disappointed to see this.
• 14:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wanted to share it with my staff, and as soon as you said that there was a nine times tables trick, I couldn't show it to them, it's so damaging, Like you know, like that, or you were saying some great stuff on the news, but as soon as you said trick, the nine times tables trick took over and that's all people are going to see and it's just so damaging.
• 14:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then I saw somebody repost it on Instagram being like, The Math Guru says that the number nine is special, but we disagree because all numbers are special.
• 14:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's important to know why this trick works.
• 14:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then did this whole very clever reel on why the trick works, cool.
• 14:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: All of this could have just been, great, Vanessa, that's one way that will engage some learners and it's cool to know, and here are some other ways you could use alongside that should you choose to, and should the recipient be interested.
• 14:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, sorry.
• 14:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is, this is like a solo episode now.
• 14:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: And Britt, just, everyone knows, Britt is like nodding so understandingly, like has therapist eyes on, she's just like, okay.
• 15:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways, but I just feel like this is what you were saying.
• 15:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like, why are you framing it as I did something wrong?
• 15:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did I do something fucking wrong?
• 15:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did I do something wrong by showing the world a really cool pattern in the nines?
• 15:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell me!
• 15:20
  Brittany Hege: That's the thing.
• 15:21
  Brittany Hege: You revealed a pattern.
• 15:23
  Brittany Hege: Like I actually heard something, it said math is the science of patterns.
• 15:28
  Brittany Hege: And I love that.
• 15:29
  Brittany Hege: Like I love viewing math as just like, exploring patterns, because that's really what it is.
• 15:35
  Brittany Hege: And so you revealed a pattern.
• 15:37
  Brittany Hege: And when we see those patterns and we show students that, and then we say like, why does this work?
• 15:43
  Brittany Hege: Like, that's a great conversation to have.
• 15:45
  Brittany Hege: I see that you're using your fingers to help you with the nines.
• 15:48
  Brittany Hege: Do you know why that works?
• 15:50
  Brittany Hege: Let's explore it.
• 15:51
  Brittany Hege: And as you're doing that exploration and having that conversation, you deepen your understanding even further about the nines.
• 15:58
  Brittany Hege: But I think it gets back to the way that all of that was handled, just as a society, this is probably outside of math, but as a society, I feel like sometimes we can be so harsh and judgmental and it's like, can we not just explore and have conversations together?
• 16:12
  Brittany Hege: Like, yes, of course, speak out against practices that are truly harmful for students and teachers, but outside of that, can we not just have beautiful math conversations and explore and discuss and be okay being wrong?
• 16:26
  Brittany Hege: And when we are right, rather than having to like project that we are right, instead invite people in to explore and have the same aha moments that we had.
• 16:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ugh.
• 16:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Preach, preach, preach.
• 16:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: And on that note, what I'd like to talk about is your view on direct instruction, explicit instruction, and how everyone is like fucking going bananas over it.
• 16:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, this is one of those practices where I'm like, half the people are like, no, it's so harmful, and the other half are like, no, it's not.
• 16:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do you think here?
• 16:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, is it really harmful?
• 16:57
  Brittany Hege: Anytime, like, we're having discussions about really just anything in life, I like to define the terms initially.
• 17:02
  Brittany Hege: Because what one person can say, like, especially with these polarized words, one person can view it in one way, and another person can view it in another way.
• 17:10
  Brittany Hege: And if we are arguing about the same word, but we're viewing it completely different, like, that's just not beneficial.
• 17:15
  Brittany Hege: And so I don't even want to like necessarily like use that word because people view it differently.
• 17:20
  Brittany Hege: But if we're talking about a practice where we are just telling students how to do math, so, we are teaching adding, subtracting, and fractions.
• 17:29
  Brittany Hege: Today's day one, let me tell you how to do this.
• 17:32
  Brittany Hege: Watch me, this is exactly how you do it.
• 17:34
  Brittany Hege: You find a a common denominator, and then you add the numerators, and then, you know, whatever.
• 17:40
  Brittany Hege: If we are doing that, that is not the approach that I believe research says is effective.
• 17:47
  Brittany Hege: It is not what I believe to be effective, it's not what I've seen to be effective.
• 17:51
  Brittany Hege: But there is a time for, I like to call it, explicit connections", so I am really big about using a bunch of different representations, letting them explore, and then obviously we want to not just like leave them in that, like, oh, we've explored all these things.
• 18:05
  Brittany Hege: It's like, okay, what did we learn from that?
• 18:07
  Brittany Hege: And we are intentionally guiding students to make specific connections here.
• 18:12
  Brittany Hege: Like, okay, so we just, we were talking about the algorithm initially, right?
• 18:15
  Brittany Hege: When we, you know, added these, I saw that you had to make exchanges with your pattern blocks.
• 18:21
  Brittany Hege: Um, why do you think you had to make those exchanges?
• 18:23
  Brittany Hege: Well, because we can't talk about these, like, it's kind of like when you're adding, like, two bananas and three watermelon, you don't say, like, I have five watermelon or five bananas, if you have to find a common unit to describe them, so we have five fruit.
• 18:35
  Brittany Hege: So we have that discussion and then it's like, okay, look at this person who maybe they did use the algorithm because they've been taught that.
• 18:42
  Brittany Hege: It's like, how is what they did similar to what you did?
• 18:44
  Brittany Hege: So we're being relatively explicit in the connections that they're making.
• 18:50
  Brittany Hege: And that is the approach that has been really helpful for me in my learning of the research and looking at, I mean, it's consolidating when we're talking about, like, Peter Liljedahl's work, like, that's what that consolidation process is, is kind of like, guiding students, yeah, bringing it together, that synthesis.
• 19:06
  Brittany Hege: But there are times where we do have to specifically tell students certain things, like, they are not going to magically discover, I don't know, that you put a decimal point between the one's place and the tenth's place.
• 19:20
  Brittany Hege: It is a convention.
• 19:21
  Brittany Hege: So there are certain things that are conventions.
• 19:24
  Brittany Hege: They are just, it is the way it is.
• 19:27
  Brittany Hege: And those are things we have to just directly tell students.
• 19:31
  Brittany Hege: And I can't remember if I said this already, but like certain algorithms, like the way that we set up an algorithm, a student is not just going to discover that.
• 19:38
  Brittany Hege: But when they have the conceptual understanding, they understand why this works, why when we multiply, we can find partial products and things like that.
• 19:46
  Brittany Hege: Then we say, here's another way that you could organize your thinking.
• 19:50
  Brittany Hege: So to say like, never direct instruction, there is time where students need more direct instruction, but I find that that typically comes after students have built conceptual understanding but, I'd like to really focus on more explicit connections rather than explicit instruction.
• 20:09
  Brittany Hege: I think that embodies more of the approach that I take.
• 20:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is really interesting because I'm really trying to like dig deep into my own math experience.
• 20:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I definitely think I was a product of this way of teaching where like I could really follow the rules and the formulas.
• 20:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not that I didn't understand, but certainly, whenever I had to do like one of those math contests or something where there's no rules like you're really just thinking, I couldn't like answer a single question.
• 20:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think that actually did cause a lot of anxiety for me in terms of like, even now I feel so threatened, you know, when you're out at a math conference, like one of these ed conferences and like the presenter's, like, and now we're all going to like think, pair, share and work on this like weird ass fucking problem.
• 20:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And here's what happens every time I start trying to like do the thing by algebra.
• 20:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're like, well, you're using algebra, but there are other ways to look at it.
• 20:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I always feel like I'm getting in trouble because they want me to do something like more creative and like move some like boxes around and like discover that the square roots is like actually has to do with the square and because I didn't, I'm not really a mathematician.
• 21:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I actually feel there's so much shame around this explicit instruction conversation, almost because like I learned that way then it doesn't count.
• 21:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that's where I'm like, you're right, I agree that like, a true understanding is obviously more important than just learning algorithms and formulas, but I actually wonder if a lot of math teachers are being shamed and like almost developing new math trauma at this stage of their career.
• 21:40
  Brittany Hege: Yes.
• 21:40
  Brittany Hege: I mean, there is never a place for shame in teaching.
• 21:45
  Brittany Hege: Like shame is just not a helpful emotion to get to change practices.
• 21:51
  Brittany Hege: Like it's just not.
• 21:52
  Brittany Hege: And so again, this kind of goes back to the same discussion of like, rather than saying like,,"That's the wrong way to teach it".
• 21:59
  Brittany Hege: Why can we not just have conversations about like, okay, this is one way to teach it.
• 22:04
  Brittany Hege: But what happens when your students don't get it that way?
• 22:07
  Brittany Hege: Do you have other strategies or ways to approach it?
• 22:09
  Brittany Hege: And if you don't, like, let's explore that together.
• 22:12
  Brittany Hege: I think it may have been Julie Dixon who said like, you know what?
• 22:16
  Brittany Hege: I'm not even gonna try and quote her because honestly, I'm the worst at quoting people.
• 22:19
  Brittany Hege: I always butcher their quotes, but something.
• 22:21
  Brittany Hege: She was basically just talking about the importance of teachers doing math.
• 22:26
  Brittany Hege: Like, we can't grow in math if we are not doing math ourselves.
• 22:29
  Brittany Hege: And so, I hate that you experience shame around that.
• 22:32
  Brittany Hege: It doesn't surprise me.
• 22:33
  Brittany Hege: I know there's plenty of teachers who experience shame around that.
• 22:36
  Brittany Hege: But I think it's just, that is one way, and there are other ways to do it, but you have to be given the opportunity and a safe space to explore that for yourself.
• 22:46
  Brittany Hege: And explore that along student alongside students.
• 22:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm hmm.
• 22:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and it's also interesting because I feel like I have such a different role.
• 22:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know you and I, like, talk about this a lot of, like, I'm no longer a classroom teacher.
• 22:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: I taught in the, I taught in the classroom for a very short time, quite honestly.
• 23:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have been tutoring for 20 years.
• 23:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: And because I'm a tutor, my role is, when a kid comes in for their one hour of the entire week to learn the entire unit that they didn't understand their teacher explain, I have to figure out the fastest way to teach it to them.
• 23:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, this is unfortunate.
• 23:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: This puts me in a very tricky position.
• 23:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Would I love to sit with that kid for hours and explain how everything works?
• 23:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: A hundred percent.
• 23:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: But usually a goal, the goals of the parent and of the students are, I want to feel better in class and not be anxious around math.
• 23:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I want to get a higher mark.
• 23:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Those are the goals, right?
• 23:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like I wouldn't say my hands are tied because I feel like there's a lot of freedom in what I do, but I feel my approach has to be different.
• 23:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: And usually it actually has to rely, at least partially, on direction instruction to get through it as fast as possible.
• 23:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I almost, I'm like, okay, at the very least, I can get the student like going through the motions of solving, you know, here's how to factor a quadratic, just follow this pattern, just follow this pattern.
• 24:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: And once they're feeling a bit confident, I can then start explaining to them why it works.
• 24:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I actually find if I only have an hour in the week, I have to start with the explicit instruction, otherwise within 20 minutes, they're feeling so lost, they're feeling like they've made no progress and they have to get out of there in an hour and know how to do something.
• 24:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like, I think I come at it from that way.
• 24:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I see people like completely taking down tutors on online and just kind of being like, this is such bullshit.
• 24:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like, what are you really doing?
• 24:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's like, well, there is a role for everyone.
• 24:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like these kids have access to one hour a week.
• 24:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what they, they can afford, that's what they have access to.
• 24:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Depending on what your goal is with the student and what that student needs, like you have to be willing to adjust and not to just shut down something entirely because like the internet is against it.
• 24:47
  Brittany Hege: Yeah.
• 24:47
  Brittany Hege: So, first, I just want to like validate that that is a really hard position to be in, and I've experienced this too, when I go into classrooms and work with teachers and work with their PLCs, and I'm not there long term with that teacher or that school, and I go in and work with their students, it is really hard to sit down and be like, I want to help you, but the amount of time and experience I know it will take to get you to really understand this concept is like much longer than this 20 minute math center.
• 25:16
  Brittany Hege: And so that's a really hard challenge.
• 25:19
  Brittany Hege: It's not something that I've necessarily figured out yet, like how to best support the student in such a short fragmented amount of time.
• 25:26
  Brittany Hege: But I think it's important to recognize too that like in a perfect world, students would truly understand, like deeply understand every single math concept they face in the classroom.
• 25:37
  Brittany Hege: But the reality is with all of the standards and all of the pressures and short timeframes, like that is just not doable.
• 25:45
  Brittany Hege: And so really looking at like those priority concepts, like, I don't even, not even going to pretend to know like what the standards are like in Canada, but in here and we're talking about upper elementary, fractions is huge.
• 25:57
  Brittany Hege: And that is something that carries through middle school, high school.
• 25:59
  Brittany Hege: So when I'm working with a teacher and I'm like, if there is one thing, like one area you really want to grow and really want to grow, go deep with students, it is fractions because it impacts so many other things.
• 26:10
  Brittany Hege: So I think it's also prioritizing,
• 26:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's a good point.
• 26:14
  Brittany Hege: And also getting really clear on your goals.
• 26:16
  Brittany Hege: Like, as a tutor, you have to meet the goals of the parents, or of the teachers, whoever's setting those goals.
• 26:23
  Brittany Hege: And like, their goals may be different than what the goals you would choose for that child.
• 26:27
  Brittany Hege: And that's okay.
• 26:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Totally.
• 26:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Totally.
• 26:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And also I feel like I'm like, I'm basically negotiating what every teacher out there is doing through my students.
• 26:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like, right, I'm dealing with 400, I have like 400 students.
• 26:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I have 400 different teachers with different expectations and different like ways of teaching and approaches and ways to navigate each of those.
• 26:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: I honestly feel like you're giving me therapy at this point.
• 26:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm so sorry.
• 26:53
  Brittany Hege: Well, you came on to my podcast and gave me therapy, so it works out.
• 26:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god.
• 27:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, this has been so fun.
• 27:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, this has flown by.
• 27:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: I also feel I've interrupted you quite a bit.
• 27:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did you, David's nodding and just being like, what wrong with you?
• 27:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm so sorry, Brittany.
• 27:13
  Brittany Hege: You were fine.
• 27:13
  Brittany Hege: I always love talking to you.
• 27:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I, did you even finish your last thought?
• 27:19
  Brittany Hege: Oh yeah, I think so.
• 27:20
  Brittany Hege: I'm, I'm typically am finishing thoughts like mid sentence.
• 27:24
  Brittany Hege: I saw a meme the other day that was like, are you the wife that has like a conversation with yourself in your head and then brings your husband in like on the last 20 percent of the conversation?
• 27:31
  Brittany Hege: And I was like, oh, that's me.
• 27:33
  Brittany Hege: I'll just randomly be like, and then we're going to go here.
• 27:36
  Brittany Hege: And he's like, what?
• 27:39
  Brittany Hege: I missed something.
• 27:41
  Brittany Hege: So I
• 27:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what would you say?
• 27:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I want to ask a couple of final questions.
• 27:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: What would you say, I'm asking you this question and then I'm going to ask the last two questions that are quick.
• 27:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: What would you say to a teacher who's like, yeah, I, I really agree with this.
• 27:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I feel like in order for me to be a more confident teacher and like a, you know, less anxious teacher, I really do need to make peace with the math that I'm teaching and learn it more, but I don't have any time.
• 28:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's the one thing they could do that would move the needle there?
• 28:08
  Brittany Hege: That they don't have any time.
• 28:09
  Brittany Hege: Okay, if they don't, if they truly do not have any time, although I will say, I truly believe that exploring the math saves you time in the long run.
• 28:17
  Brittany Hege: But if you truly do not have a single second of time, like, get curious about what your students are doing.
• 28:23
  Brittany Hege: If we are always telling students how to do and how to think, you're always going to see work that is exactly like mimicking exactly what you're doing and what you're telling them to think.
• 28:32
  Brittany Hege: But if you give them a problem and let them explore it, you know, students intuitively know a lot just from life experiences.
• 28:40
  Brittany Hege: Like, uh, one of the 5th grade standards is fractions as division, and that, like, 2 3rds is 2 divided by 3.
• 28:47
  Brittany Hege: Well, a second grader could figure that out because they have experience sharing two cookies with three friends.
• 28:55
  Brittany Hege: So like give students those opportunities and then just be really curious about your students work.
• 29:00
  Brittany Hege: So look at how they approached it, think about how you would approach it if you couldn't use an algorithm, that alone will allow you to kind of like deepen your understanding of the math or see it in a different way.
• 29:12
  Brittany Hege: So that's the first thing.
• 29:14
  Brittany Hege: And the second thing, I'm like, we are in the day and age, that just made me sound so old.
• 29:18
  Brittany Hege: We're in the day and age where there is so many online communities.
• 29:24
  Brittany Hege: And obviously I'm biased, like, you know, follow me on Instagram, join the Upper Elementary Math Teacher's Facebook group, read a blog post, look on YouTube, there are so many, and now granted, you have to find a community that feels safe to you, and that is encouraging, but just join, and listen, and allow other people's passions to maybe like spark your passion and your curiosity about, oh, is there another way to teach this.
• 29:48
  Brittany Hege: I feel like I'm constantly just randomly doing math on sticky notes because I'll see something, I saw it on your Instagram, you posted something about the algorithm for dividing fractions, I think, and I immediately pull out a sticky note, I'm like drawing pictures about it.
• 30:00
  Brittany Hege: So, I think we have to get to a place where we're willing to, like, accept that we may not understand it the way that we want to, and then just, I've used the word curiosity a million times, but I just feel
• 30:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I love it.
• 30:14
  Brittany Hege: Yeah, just how, why does this work?
• 30:16
  Brittany Hege: I have no idea.
• 30:17
  Brittany Hege: Let's explore! Like, I feel like that is just my math life.
• 30:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I will use the word I always use and say that was very powerful.
• 30:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 30:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: That was very powerful, Brittany.
• 30:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 30:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm going to ask you the last two questions but this has just been so illuminating and truly cathartic for me.
• 30:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: So thank you so much.
• 30:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: The first is what would, if there was one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?
• 30:41
  Brittany Hege: I wish that it was more visual, like more hands on.
• 30:46
  Brittany Hege: I wish students, rather than learning math, were experiencing math.
• 30:52
  Brittany Hege: Yeah, I think just making it more visual, whether that is with pictures, whether that is, um, with manipulatives.
• 30:58
  Brittany Hege: I'm big on manipulatives.
• 30:59
  Brittany Hege: I love manipulatives.
• 31:01
  Brittany Hege: So, there are probably a million things that are really important to change.
• 31:04
  Brittany Hege: This is just the one area I'm very passionate about.
• 31:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Love.
• 31:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: What would you say to someone who was like, that's so cool, really great story, like, I would love to get more confident with the math I'm teaching, but like, I'm just not a math person.
• 31:23
  Brittany Hege: I think I would say, I don't know if I would say this like in person, but what came to my head is like, I'm really sorry the experiences you have had have made you believe that.
• 31:30
  Brittany Hege: That's like deep in my gut what I would want to say.
• 31:33
  Brittany Hege: I don't know that I would actually say that.
• 31:35
  Brittany Hege: Um, I don't know.
• 31:38
  Brittany Hege: I don't know why this is such a hard question.
• 31:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think nice to say.
• 31:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think you should say that.
• 31:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I'm not here to tell you what to do, but like, if you said that, I think that's like, really validating.
• 31:49
  Brittany Hege: You know, I think it was maybe Chase Orton who said, you may not have been good at math class, but that does not mean that you're not good at math.
• 31:58
  Brittany Hege: Like distinguishing like math from math class.
• 32:02
  Brittany Hege: I love that.
• 32:03
  Brittany Hege: So maybe in my more eloquent days, I'll be able to validate their experience and also tell them like, math is so much different than what you likely experienced growing up.
• 32:16
  Brittany Hege: And then I would invite them to come sit in my office and do math on sticky notes with me.
• 32:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love that.
• 32:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 32:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are the best.
• 32:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: This has been so fun.
• 32:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't wait to hang out in real life.
• 32:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, Thank you.
• 32:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you so much.
• 32:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're amazing.
• 32:33
  Brittany Hege: Aw.
• 32:33
  Brittany Hege: Well, thank you so much.
• 32:34
  Brittany Hege: It is, like, such a joy to get to talk to you, and to meet you, and I know you hate goodbyes, so I can be the one to say goodbye.
• 32:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you! David's giving me the eye.
• 32:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you, Brittany.
• 32:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are my therapist! You're my math therapist.
• 32:50
  Brittany Hege: Hey, I, I will take that title.
• 32:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: You go.
• 32:55
  Brittany Hege: Well, thank you for joining another episode of the Math Therapy Podcast.
• 33:01
  Brittany Hege: We'll talk to you later.
• 33:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bye.
• 33:06
  David Kochberg: Beautiful.
• 33:07
  David Kochberg: Professional!
• 33:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just want to start by letting everyone know how hard it was for me to not start this episode with"it's Brittany, bitch".
• 33:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now that I've gotten that out of my system, I am obsessed with Brittany, guys.
• 33:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, capital O obsessed.
• 33:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I loved everything about this interview, and I feel like I walked away with so many gems, and quite frankly, that was kind of the math therapy I needed when it comes to all of the math related bullying I've been getting on the internet.
• 33:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think the biggest takeaway for me is that there's no one right way to teach students, because every student is different.
• 33:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: If we can lean into that, then we're already doing way better than we have in the past.
• 33:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok.
• 33:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg.
• 34:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise.
• 34:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use.
• 34:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Those things actually make such a big difference for us.
• 34:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word.
• 34:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Until next time, peace, love, and pi.
• 34:27
  Brittany Hege: They are not going to, magically discover, I don't know, that you put a decimal point between the, um, one's place and the tenth's place.
• 34:36
  Brittany Hege: Like that is, there's a word for that.
• 34:38
  Brittany Hege: What is it?
• 34:39
  Brittany Hege: A,
• 34:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is it?
• 34:41
  Brittany Hege: What's it called?
• 34:42
  Brittany Hege: Um, I just blanked on it.
• 34:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't, I certainly don't know.
• 34:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wouldn't, I don't think you're going to blow my mind with whatever it
• 34:48
  Brittany Hege: There, hold on.
• 34:49
  Brittany Hege: There certain things that just are the way they are.
• 34:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, is that the word you're looking for, for certain things that are the way they are?
• 34:57
  Brittany Hege: Yeah.
• 34:57
  Brittany Hege: It's just,
• 34:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Facts?
• 34:59
  Brittany Hege: No, it's not that.
• 35:01
  Brittany Hege: Hold on, this is probably going to get
• 35:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, notation, notation,
• 35:04
  Brittany Hege: um, no.
• 35:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: David!
• 35:07
  David Kochberg: I don't know, I need more context.
• 35:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Give us more context.
• 35:10
  Brittany Hege: I don't know.
• 35:10
  Brittany Hege: It's just,
• 35:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, a decimal point between two numbers, what's another example of this thing you're talking about?
• 35:15
  Brittany Hege: or like rounding, for example.
• 35:16
  Brittany Hege: When we round, like the fact like a five.
• 35:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Rules?
• 35:20
  Brittany Hege: No, it's a, Ah!
• 35:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: rules, conjectures, uh, format, um.
• 35:28
  David Kochberg: You're saying random words.
• 35:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here, film
• 35:30
  David Kochberg: don't think understand what she's actually saying.
• 35:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I'm, I'm, I'm waiting until she says it's like that.
• 35:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I'm waiting for her to be like, oh, you're close.
• 35:37
  David Kochberg: Well let her explain the whole example.
• 35:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, okay.
• 35:40
  Brittany Hege: it's, um,
• 35:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: She's stuck.
• 35:43
  Brittany Hege: I know, I cannot, I'm going to be able to pull it out.
• 35:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here, Dave film, can you get some content for fuck's sake?
• 35:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, hold on.
• 35:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hey Siri, what do you call Okay, hold on, hold on.
• 35:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Siri needs to get on this.
• 35:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: One second.
• 35:56
  David Kochberg: But you don't even understand what you're asking.
• 35:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Shh!
• 35:58
  David Kochberg: You just keep interrupting her.
• 36:00
  Siri: Sorry about that.
• 36:02
  David Kochberg: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:03
  David Kochberg: Siri agrees.
• 36:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hey Siri, what do you call it when there are certain rules in math?
• 36:09
  Siri: I found this on the web.
• 36:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Expressions.
• 36:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, that's not it.
• 36:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know.
• 36:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Britt.
• 36:14
  Brittany Hege: I'm, I'm, I'm looking at ChatGPT.
• 36:17
  Brittany Hege: A convention! Oh my gosh.
• 36:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Convention! She looked at ChatGPT.
• 36:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what I was gonna do.
• 36:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: What was your prompt?
• 36:23
  Brittany Hege: What is the word that is used in math education for things that are just rules like a five rounds up?
• 36:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: That fucking ChatGPT.
• 36:31
  David Kochberg: This is what you wanted me to film.
• 36:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is good content! Anyway, sorry, Britt, as you were saying.
• 36:36
  Brittany Hege: It's a convention.
• 36:37
  Brittany Hege: It is a convention.