Latest / The Redeemed Backslider / What is Religious Abuse TRB #29 Dr. Peridot Gilbert-Reed

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What is Religious Abuse TRB #29 Dr. Peridot Gilbert-Reed · The Redeemed Backslider

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Redeemed Backslider with your host, kathy Chastain.
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Christian-based psychotherapist and Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: This podcast is dedicated to those who have wandered but are ready to return to the life-changing power of grace and the freedom found in Jesus.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Hi, welcome to the Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, kathy Chastain.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm a Christian-based psychotherapist and I'm a Redeemed Backslider.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: With me today is a colleague of mine, dr Peridot Gilbert-Reed.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: I call her Peri and I do not have her bio with me today, but she is a psychologist in the field of religious abuse and spiritual bypassing and I'll let her tell you a little bit more about herself, but we did cover it in our last video with her on spiritual bypass, so that was episode 25.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: And if you didn't get a chance to see it, I encourage you to go back and watch it, because that conversation is a little bit different than the one we're going to have today.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: So thank you again for being here, perry, it's good to see you.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Good to see you as well.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: So what did I miss in your bio?
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Maybe you want to tell the people out there Not much.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: I'm a counselor here in Louisiana.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: We're in the northern part of Louisiana, shreveport, bezier area.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: I have my PhD.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: I have a doctorate of philosophy with a concentration in psychology and theology.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: My passion for this is what I did my dissertation on and how.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: The last question is really the uh part with spiritual bypass, and we talked a lot like you said a little bit about that last time how it intersects with spiritual abuse, and so, um, I'm passionate about this topic.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: The more that people know, the more that, um, they can watch out for how it's being done to them, but also to be accountable to make sure that they don't do it to somebody else.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: So that is, I think, probably the main things they are now have published articles with Christianity Today and Christian Counseling Magazine on the topic of spiritual bypass and spiritual abuse.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: So if any of you want to look for her work, I'll have it in the link below, but also you could just Google her and Google the topic.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: It'll probably come up.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: And before we get started, I just want to say a little caveat to the audience.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: This podcast in particular is to reach the backsliders, the ones that have been hurt by church, hurt by ministry, hurt in life, whatever the reason that they've left their faith or left a church in setting or left the Lord.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: The context of everything we do in this podcast is to reach those and hopefully encourage them to give God another try, maybe from a different lens.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: And so we talk about a lot of different subjects here, hoping to reach them, and so, with that in mind, nothing that we say here is meant to throw stones at ministry or Christian culture or any particular denomination.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: It is meant to just give an example of the fallacy of men and the humanity of people and how things can happen sometimes overtly, sometimes covertly, sometimes ignorantly that really really make an impact in a negative way in someone's life.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: And so we just want to offer a discussion in that area, because if it's you, if anybody even attending church today has been affected by this.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: I would encourage you to discuss it and really do some work around it, so that it doesn't become a root that pops up someplace and begins to bear fruit in your life when you don't really want it to.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: And so, with that in mind, we're going to just jump right in and, perry, I'll start like we did last time.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: If you could just give us a definition of what spiritual abuse really is.
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: So spiritual abuse is an interesting term to define.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: I don't know that there's one settled definition.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: However, kenneth Pergment, when I did my research, he brought up defining the soul and he said it was the sacred.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: So when you look at and I'm going to backtrack for a second what religion is and what spirituality is, religion is organized.
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: It is usually a set of tenets that someone follows, those types of things, whereas spirituality is individual.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: It's that person's relationship with God.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: So when we think about what spiritual abuse is, one could say and it's one that I defer to it is an abuse of the sacred, it's an abuse of the soul.
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: It goes deeper than can even be imagined.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: Now, johnson and Van Bonderen, who wrote the groundbreaking work on spiritual abuse in 1991, the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse is the title of it they defined it as any element of spirituality that causes harm.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: Craig Cashwell I talked about him a little bit previously said that anything that is psychologically damaging cannot be theologically sound and that that wait'm gonna, I'm gonna pause.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna pause because I mean there's there's so much to that, a few things that you've said so far, but I want you to just repeat that anything that is psychologically damaging cannot be theologically sound.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah because God is good and God is perfect in all his ways, and so that that's such a that that really encompasses so much.
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: okay, I'm sorry to interrupt but continue with your definition yeah, so you know, like I said, when it comes to definitions, it's very hard because you're dealing with different components.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: Um, it is a longer definition.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: It would say when anyone in authority and this is because religion, spiritual can be anywhere right, so they can be in a religious organization, they can be within a church, they can be within a home.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: So, excuse me, when an authority uses their power to establish a structure that covertly or overtly uses tactics such as coercion, manipulation, exploitation, censorship I'm trying to get that word out as well as promotes secrecy and silence, and then also misuses scripture and spiritual bypass on an individual for their own gain, then spiritual abuse has occurred.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, so it is, and I'm going to back up and we're going to break it down because that was huge.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: So go back to the beginning.
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: When you said the difference between the sacred and the, you described and I was grabbing my notebook to catch some notes Spirituality, and I was grabbing my notebook to catch some notes.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, could you just slow that down and break that down?
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: So religion is.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: Religion is organized.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: It's more of a communal process.
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: It follows a set of values and principles.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: It can enhance our spirituality, but it's more institutional.
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: It's primarily material.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: It's what you know.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: We go to a building, often for church, not always but there it is the communal process.
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: We have a set of beliefs that we adhere to.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: Whatever religion we follow, that's religion.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: So it is more of a standard per se, correct?
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: You know, within this organized structure that this is what we do.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: Yes, spirituality is individualized.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: It is my personal relationship with Christ, my image of who God is.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: It incorporates the values and the principles that I'm learning, but it is again individualized in how maybe I incorporate that into my life.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: You don't need religion to be spiritual so you can have your spirituality without necessarily being a part of a religion.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: Being a part of a religion and then it's immaterial, it's unobservable.
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: When I have my time with God, that isn't meant for everybody to be, you know, for it to be seen, it is my relationship, my one-on-one with God and how the Holy Spirit speaks to me and those types of things.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: So that's the difference between religion and spirituality.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Right, and so I want to park right here for a minute, because I think that this very thing is where people get lost and even a bit confused, because a lot of people go to church looking for a God, and rightfully so right.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: But I think where that breakdown happens is when they don't quite know the path to find their own walk with God.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Some people do, some people don't, some people are so new to all of it, and so they just know okay, I want to be closer to God, I'm going to go to a church and I'm going to find community, because we all need that, we're wired for community, and so a lot of times people can get lost.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Their heart and their intention is in the right place, but unfortunately, you know, god says for us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: He does call us to an individual walk, and so I think this place right here brings a lot of confusion to people.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: It's also the place where people would say I don't need to go to church to have God, and, as you said, that could be true.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: But the Bible also says to not forsake the assembling of yourselves together.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Bible also says to not forsake the assembling of yourselves together, and it's nice to go to church and fellowship with like-minded people, to be encouraged with one another, and so I think that, when it comes to religion, this is really where I think a lot of people get so confused and where people really identify God with a particular set, a denomination or a set of rules.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: I just I feel like there's a lot of meat here.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure how to tweeze it all out, but I know that in my particular denomination that people will leave the denomination because of the standard that this particular denomination follows, similar to other denominations.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: You know, like I don't even know what denominations don't believe women to be leaders or speakers or anything in the church, but every denomination has their own set of standards that they abide within.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Right, but a walk with God is something different.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: And then you choose which community of body of believers you choose to go to.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, right, go ahead, go ahead.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: No, you're good.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that the research shows and, if you know, barna is a great resource.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: They do a lot of religious research as well as Pew Research Center, and so research that came out I want to say it was like somewhere between 2015 and 2017.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: But they studied the nuns and the don'ts and the nuns were like we want nothing to do with religion, we want nothing to do with God.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: They're going to be more aligned with.
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: Some were atheists, some were agnostic, some were we don't know what we believe, but it's not that.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: And then the dones were act and then the dons were we are done with religion.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: We are not done with our faith, and part of that came from the fact that there had been so much religious harm that many individuals had incurred that they couldn't trust going into a religious environment.
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: So they separated themselves out of it and were able to say look, I know my jesus, and that isn't it what they right?
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, witnessed in there.
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: So it's a very fine line, because when you've been hurt by religious entities, it is very hard to follow going back to a church again.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: It is very hard to go into a place where community, where we should be able to find community.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: I posted a while back.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: I have a you know, of course, instagram, facebook under ParadoxReadcom, but one of the things I said in there is people should expect to go to a church and find Jesus.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: They should, no matter the combination.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: I should be able to walk in and know that there is going to be the God of Scripture there.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: Unfortunately, what has happened is many have not, and so now they're trying to figure out.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: How do I even navigate what I thought I knew God to be?
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: And then, how do I ever trust going back into a religious organization or even religious people again?
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: That was one of the things in my research a lot of people said probably all of them.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: How do we trust religious persons again?
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: How do we know that our intention or their intention is good for us and that they will continue to show christ as he is in scripture, not who right created him to be?
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: right, I?
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I totally agree.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: I grew up in when I was probably 11 years old, so I was born and raised in church.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: When I was about 11 years old, the church that I was attending split the pastor we were having.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: So I'm Pentecostal, so we believe in all the expression of the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, and so we were seeing powerful moves of God, powerful people coming in.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: The newspaper had done articles on the church because it just seemed like they were flooded with people just coming to see what was going on there.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: It was so powerful and I remember being a little kid, you know we'd get out of church really late on Sunday nights because there was such a powerful move.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Well, and then one day we found out that the pastor was hiring prostitutes and gambling and we had a building fund to build the church over.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: At that time was over a million dollars in the fund, which was a lot of money back in the 1970s, and only to find out it had all been squandered, and so it was a really big blow.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: My family, along with other families, had left the church and there was a lot of people, I think, that did not survive that split that fell away from God because of that, and obviously we can see how and why.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: But there was also a very large core group of people who, um, really had a walk with God and we are the church that I attend today.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: But when they brought in another pastor, there was a board of people the core board of people that had decided okay, we're just going to keep going trying to follow God.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: And they brought in a pastor who was the most humble and loving and gracious man.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think I've ever met another person like him since, but just loving, loving, loving, and he really did nurture us back to the ability to follow again somebody else.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: But he taught us very clearly they need to bear the fruit of the Lord.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: You don't just follow blindly, you watch their life, you watch how God works in their life.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: But that happens, you know, we're seeing it in the headlines today and, um, and I see people around town that used to go to church before that happened and it was, it was a major, major thing in our little city, um, but I see people around town that used to go and I think I wonder where they are with the Lord.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: I wonder if that wrecked them in their faith or if they found another avenue to find the Lord and went back to their relationship with him.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: So that was just a little bit of my history and I feel very fortunate that my family was able to survive that.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: But it happens a lot and there are those very real examples of abuse.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there are, they're all around and it doesn't take.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: You know, you go to Netflix, you can go to Hulu, you can go to these different things and see some of the greatest falls, unfortunately, in sex over that.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and what was your story, perry?
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Because you did your dissertation based on your own experience.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: So what prompted all this for you?
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: So, um, there are two things.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: One is I've had very overt type of spiritual abuse.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: This is where there's no doubt you, you're in it.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: You're looking at going.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: That's not right.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: And then I've had very covert abuse where it is a lot of spiritual bypass, a lot of spiritual gaslighting to where you're walking away going.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: I don't even know which way is up or down.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: So it started, I would probably say.
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: Now I've had slights throughout.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: I mean I went to a Baptist college.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: It was one of the best experiences.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: I'm so thankful.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: I have no doubt God was in it, but there were moments where I had that there.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: Like I said, anywhere religion is, you can have some religious views.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: Anywhere spirituality is, there's a chance for spiritual bypass.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: But when was a lot?
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: It was overt in that, unlike seeing this, other people in the office are seeing it.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: However, nobody's doing anything and I didn't know what to do.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: Often, what we find with religious abuse is and some people have asked this why did people not go tell?
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: Who were they going to tell?
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: The only person to tell is the one that abused you.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: You're not going to get validation from that, right.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: And so, um, I had a lot of what would be called workplace workplace bullying, um, spiritual.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: And then it was turned on me.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: Well, I need to be nicer, I need to be kinder.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: I'm the problem.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: I was even told there was a situation where literally there were four of us three went to lunch women and then I didn't.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: And when that was brought up because we had an animal review I was even told that like he went to the people and said, hey, did this happen?
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: They come back.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: And he said, well, yeah, but they said you're hard to get along with.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: I'm like and that's okay, you know like, but again I wasn't healthy enough I'm going to say this for myself because I was going through changes.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: God was working in my heart and really trying to get me mentally and emotionally healthy once again, to be able to start seeing some of this Right.
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: And so I was like, well, maybe I need to work harder.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: So I went with some of the spiritual bypass elements given to me, like turn the other cheek, remember it's important to forgive.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: Maybe you know I wouldn't kill him with kindness Not helpful, right Because all I did was deny my pain while trying to please someone else.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: And so that continued for about two or three years until the point that I just could not take it anymore.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: I got married to a pastor there and I was supposed to leave to go finish my or begin my work in counseling, actually finish it up with my practicum.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: And I was to the point I was going to leave.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: I was supposed to exit in May.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: I came in and said I'm done, I was tired of going home every day and crying, I was tired of wrecking.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: I mean it was so blatant that I was on being out and so it wasn't until then that it was addressed.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: But even then it was turned back on me.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: So that was the very overt Um.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: From there I left and did my counseling um practicum and that's where we have to practice a lot of this stuff.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: But you have supervision, all the things.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: And then once I graduated, I went into a Christian counseling firm and they are experienced very covert abuse.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: It was a covert narcissist that led it.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: It was the covert abuse of, again, a lot of spiritual gaslighting.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: You know he would.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: We would be told we're allowed to ask questions, but then when we asked questions, you're not supposed to go against authority, because I, like you, I'm willing to share this with you.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: But this isn't really yours to know.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: But it's like well, you just told me I can ask questions.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: And then often we'd be called out in prayer and ask questions, and then often we'd be called out in prayer, that was fun, so a lot of things like that.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: And once I left from the very overt abuse within the church, I could not handle going there.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: In fact, my husband was on staff there and it was very hard for us to um grieve what was happening because he was still there and I was still having to hear the things that were happening there and I helped the way and the people that are just enjoying life and I'm like those people.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: What felt like at the time ruined mine.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: Um and I did not attend church for about a year and then COVID hit and then I was so really two years and I kind of eased back in, but on the heels of the covert abuse.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: Here's the craziness.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: Kind of cool how God works, right.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: Is that those experiences helped me write my dissertation.
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: Those experiences allowed me to see I'm not the only one and people need help in overgrowing.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: I had often had people I mean, I have a background in studying the phenomenon of religious abuse when I was in my undergrad at my Bible school, and so I had some knowledge of it and could bring language to that and I had several people coming into my office even prior to all of this happening.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: But now, now I had a really fulfilled language and really saw the purpose of that pain that I went through, and I don't know that I ever questioned God.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: What I did question was God, why am I suffering and they're having the time of their life?
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: It felt like a real injustice to watch all of these people prosper and I was just hanging out back here with my heart.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Just it felt like cut all open for everybody to see, and so it took a very long time for me to heal from that and a lot of therapy.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: Actually, when you get into spiritual or religious abuse, you definitely if you're seeking counseling for something like that I'm just going to take this little caveat make sure that the therapist does have trauma training, does understand that there is a unique component when it comes to the spiritual aspect, and if you, you will want to find someone that at least has some understanding and can incorporate that in there.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: There was no one here.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: I actually went to Dallas, which is about three hours away, to get some counseling over that and, if anything, just to be validated that what in the world I had experienced was real.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of times that just you haven't been able to trust anything else and because you've been told for so long, the coercion, the manipulation, the censorship, all of that the spiritual bypass makes you really think you're crazy.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: And so then, when I finally had someone say, no, you really did experience these things and, yes, you have had spiritual abuse it felt like that was a turn, that something was finally validated and I could really begin the process of healing.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: And then my husband and I could find healing because we were having to grieve.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: Ministry was not going to look like what we thought it was on there, and even now, as I speak on spiritual bypass and I speak on spiritual abuse and I speak on my circumstances that led to that, I think he and I now both can have some peace, like, okay, this is your story to tell, this is you are going to help people.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: It's not me, I am.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: There was a time I was bitter, there was a time I was resentful and I was there for a long time Because, again, I didn't know how to heal from that.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: Right, I think too, because I was still in the environment and still around those people, it took me longer to heal, but now I'm able to do this from a place of peace and a place of hope and a place of resilience.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Can you describe like the experience or the circumstance that was abusive and what it could have looked like from a healed place, with a leader or whoever was responsible for the abuse, like if they were really walking it out as Christians?
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: What was their behavior from an abuse standpoint?
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Then what should have their behavior been if they were truly, you know living what they believe?
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: Yes, thank you for asking that question, because that's so important.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: One is from the abusive standpoint it was.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: I was ignored.
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: I was told I was the problem.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: I wasn't.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: When I went with a question it was usually an eye roll of like here she goes again.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: So there was no validation from that.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: There was just no safety there.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: I knew I could not go to the only people again in the church world very seldom.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: Now some churches may have that.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: I can't speak to every church.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: They don't have an HR department.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: You can't go to the HR department and complain about a situation.
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: You're going to the very people who are hurting you and you're hoping they're going to receive whatever situation.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: You're going to the very people who are hurting you and you're hoping they're going to receive whatever it is you're saying.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: In my case they did not and so it was denied, it was pushed aside, it was ignored.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: So I mean it sounds like they were like better than you, or judgmental of you or you know, coming across as if you didn't have a right, maybe, to have a voice or to be there among them.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: I would definitely say that my voice was not heard.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: It's just kind of like we don't have time for that.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: That's what I felt like often we don't have time for that, and we got things to do and people to see, and these people offer more and you don't.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: I mean that's what it kind of felt like, because their voice was often heard, mine was not.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: And so actually, um, after an incident that had occurred, once I left the church, um brought us to a conversation.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: The pastor reached out and said hey, come in and talk to us, let's find out what's going on.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: And so I tried and some was heard, and then it was turned back on me.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: That conversation today, as a healed person, would have looked completely different from my end, for sure, but when you are working with religious persons and you have that experience, number one validation they would have validated my experience as a healed individual and a healed culture, because often culture is from the top down, and so in a healed culture, they would have said hey, let's talk through that, let's get together, let's find out what we can do.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: How can we work together to make this environment best for everyone?
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Additionally, when there's a conversation with a hurt person who has seen that be like okay, let's talk through this.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: If there's apologies necessary, there will be apologies, but we don't turn it around on anyone.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: We own our mistakes and we're able to say well, I will learn from that and I will work through that.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: That is not what yes or sorry that I hurt you.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: That was totally not the intention at all.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Anything, I don't know that.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to just give lived examples that people can relate to because I think, just as you said before, holding space for somebody to hear you know, because it's easy, could be a personality thing and not a uh, not a segregation thing, not a not anything intentional right, just completely unaware, and that could all be getting misread and misunderstood.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: And now we're reacting to assumptions that we're making and and boy, it just can spiral quickly yes, and in my instance it.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: Yes, I was the odd man out, but it was also the fact that there were very cognizant decisions from three of the women to leave me out, and that's never Right, right.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Never, no.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: And so you're saying that wasn't dealt with from a ministry perspective?
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: The pastor or whomever that was over those women did not address, it, did not deal with it.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: That was the issue, rather than hey, why don't we work together to make this the best environment for everyone?
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: How can we do that?
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, or figure out why it's happening in the first place.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: So a lot of that was in play.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: Some of those people I've been able to heal with and we have at least been able to be around each other, some still not.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: And that's just life, and you don't realize how small a city is and you have something like this and you run into them everywhere you go right, um, for that.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: As far as the second environment that I was in, where it was a business, it was a christian counseling firm and it was a business, um, going to the individual again, I'm going to the abuser, um, and I am told that, um, there must be something like I shouldn't be asking these questions, this is from an unhealthy place.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: And this is what happened I shouldn't be asking questions.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: Yet I'm told I can ask questions.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: A lot of gaslighting, a lot of making you feel like you're the issue Myself.
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: And what's been interesting is it wasn't just me, myself and my-worker that started the business had the same experience, so at least there had validation.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: I knew it wasn't just me.
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: Like, I am hearing these things and I am seeing these things, um, and when I was trying to approach, I was laughed out.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: I was told well, maybe, and because I do have a hearing condition.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: I wear hearing aids.
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: It was used as well.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: You didn't hear me properly.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: Those kind of things.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: That's from an unhealthy place, from a healthy place.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: That would have been.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I did ask you to that.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: You could ask anything.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I didn't put boundaries around that.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: I would prefer not to discuss X, y and Z, right, right, definitely not using someone's weakness or disability against them.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: I think it's just you just don't do that.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: You can say, hey, you know, I recognize where you're coming from.
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: I think if I stated that, that wasn't what I meant, here is what I'm stating and then, okay, you're all on a clear page on there.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: You know, even if someone and we know this right.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: So, whether it's in the church, it's in a counseling place, it's anywhere, someone can have so much trauma and so much hurt that you could breathe and they would misinterpret that, and I don't mean that disrespectfully.
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: I've been there.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Right, and I don't mean that disrespectfully I've been there.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: We can still approach them with humility and we can still approach them with grace and be able to say how can we work together then to have a different outcome?
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: General is able to be accountable and able to have conversations about differences and sit with somebody and be able to let someone have an opinion.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: I may not always agree with someone, but I definitely will honor their ability to have an opinion, and it's okay if we're not on the same page.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: We might have different experiences, but a really good leader would be able to do that, hopefully, just to hear somebody and draw them in instead of I'm right, you're wrong.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't think this is not specific to just religion, it just happens to be.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: I personally believe because it happens in relationships and work environments and families, but when it is in a religious culture, it seems like it's 10 times more hurtful because it's the God piece that people are there for, and so they begin to equate that.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: You know well.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: If this is I hear this all the time if this is what God is like, I don't want anything to do with it.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: And unfortunately that is not how God is at all.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Chuck DeGroat wrote when narcissism comes to church, and he has a towards the end of the book he's talking about how he works with church.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: Those planting churches and people often hire him.
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: He's both a he has a unique position and that he's an MDiv, so he has his background in religion that's what often pastors have as ambassadors of divinity and then he's also, I believe, a doctor and a psychologist, so he would do reports to state whether the individual planting the church was mentally, emotionally and spiritually healthy enough to do so.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: And one of the things I've just never, boy.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: we need to do that, I think, with our pastoral ship, because our humanity can get in the way.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: And boy, I wish there was a protocol for that.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: You know that everyone going into ministry would go through, you know, like, like we had to do, becoming therapists, we had to do.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: I had to do 120 hours of therapy, which I've always done anyways, you know, before I could even do my practice, I think.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: And so I wish that we had that for ministers, because it really will show someone their blind spots.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: But sorry to interrupt, go ahead.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: And in fact, when I was doing research on the book I'm writing, I contacted, I want to say, like six of the top seminaries and ask them if they had any um, what's the word?
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: I'm looking for Any way to check in on like a like a screening.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: like a screening come up with assessment.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, a screening, and none of them did.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you might need to create that, perry, an assessment.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: It's just helpful for again, let's do some therapy, let's find out our blind spots.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: But with Chuck DeGroote, he gave this story in his book and it was a gentleman who had a lot of difficulty and turmoil in his church and because he loved, he recognized he was the problem.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: He was like but I don't know how to change this and the authorities above him so an elder, elders or a board contacted Chuck DeGroote and said hey, will you come in let's see if we can figure out what's going on.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: They go through this process, the last step of the process, which this is hard on anybody, but especially just leading up to this and knowing the pastor was going to have to do this.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: And I remember in the book Chuck Ducro turns to him and said are you ready for this?
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: And he said I guess I'm ready, as I'm going to be.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: He said this is going to be the question we're going to be.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: You said this is going to be the question we're going to ask people that are coming in.
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: How do you experience me?
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: And that pastor had to sit with each person of his staff and be able to ask that question and sit through receiving that answer.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: That's hard for me to even imagine.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: But when we have that type of accountability, when we have that type of vulnerability, we also create a not only healthy culture but a safe culture, no matter what it is.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: If it's a Christian counseling firm, if it's a Christian school, if it's anything like that, we have that opportunity, but unfortunately many people don't have that.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Right, and I want to pause real quick because the reason I mean there's many reasons why I wanted to do this podcast particularly, but I just want to say that when we're not practicing these things in a church culture, the enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: I said that last podcast and that's what we're guarding against, because we have receptive people coming into our churches.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: We have people that are there to look for the Lord and find out how do you do this thing called being a Christian, and so the enemy is going to be just waiting for one little mistake to draw them away and it might be their only chance hopefully not, because God will always pursue them.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: But it's so important that we get this right because the enemy is there to take advantage of one little misstep, one little hurt, you know, and of course congregation members have to be aware of their adversary as well.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: But you know, my heart really goes out to the people who are sincere and they're just really sincerely trying, and then something happens, they get wounded and and that the intimacy, the end.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: The enemy is just an opportunist to pounce, to pounce on the.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: You know, one little open wound can do so much damage to the soul of a person.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Yes, and I love that entry there of the opportunist because he is, if he can see it, he will use it.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Um right, if we remember in the scripture, he, he was the beautiful snake in the garden, he was all these.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, he comes in ways we can't even imagine and I have never.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: You know when I talk about a lot of this Screwtape.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: Letters by CS Lewis.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: If you've not read that.
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: It's fabulous, but it is so.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: You know, cs Lewis was so wise when he wrote that and just seeing these subtleties of how the enemy comes in and can dampen our souls and take those wounds and rip them open.
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: There's also that saying of a death by a thousand paper cuts.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: I mean it only takes that one slight, another slight, another slight.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: Next thing you know we're bleeding all over the place and if the church, if the religious leaders in any organization are not able to receive that and hear that, then we have a culture we have to really look at and go.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: What are we doing If we're, if we are here, the churches for the?
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: You know, jesus calls us the sick because we are sick with sin.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: We, you know this needs to be a place where the sick feel welcome, where the sick know they will be restored.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: And when we go expecting restoration and we get hurt, that makes us a little leery to go to the next place or the next place, or the next place.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Right, and so the opportunity for religious abuse to occur is when people stay silent and they don't address it right.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's lots of places, that's not the only one but if someone is feeling hurt, they need to go to their pastor or leadership someone if it feels safe to do so.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: But talk about it so that it doesn't just boil up and see if you can get to the bottom of it.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: You've said a key thing there and I want to make sure every listener hears that, as long as you are safe to do so, If you have tried this.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: It has not worked.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: You have felt berated, you have felt belittled and all of those things.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: Then you don't.
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: Then I think you have to make a choice of either leaving and choosing another church or really just seeking God's wisdom and guidance on that Right.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think so many people do not trust themselves to hear God's voice in their own life.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: They're just so used to following a leader which you know.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: Paul said follow me as I follow Christ, and I think they're there for that reason.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: But also, god is our shepherd.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: The Bible says the Lord is my shepherd and he is speaking.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: And he is talking and he is guiding.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: And so if there is ever a check in your spirit and your heart, don't just ignore that and minimize it.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Take it to the Lord in prayer and take it to someone that you do feel safe with to get perspective, because maybe it is a bad day, maybe it is really a bigger problem than what it felt like.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: So can you talk?
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: I know I'm going off script a little bit.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: So can you talk?
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: I know I'm going off script a little bit.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Can you talk about the coercion?
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: You know, as a therapist, there is a lot of narcissists in the church world and I totally believe that I interviewed one person a long time ago who had said to me that they really liked being on stage and they really liked being on stage and they really liked how they felt after they preached a message and there were some other things that I can't go into, but I just I thought that that was probably not the right reasons for wanting to pastor, you know.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: But I was wondering if you could talk about what narcissism could look like from a pastoral standpoint or someone that is in leadership, and how that could look covertly and overtly, using, I know, the word coercion.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know that average people that's not from a therapeutic background would understand coercion.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: But if you want to maybe break down coercion, manipulation and I think censorship is huge, I'm glad you said that but maybe just sort of give us a picture of what that could look like from a narcissistic leader.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: So you know, and again, chuck DeGroote used this terminology called faux neuro ability um many foe, as in fake neuro, as in mind ability, so they can say a good word and make you feel something right yes, yes, and they can present them on their own selves as very vulnerable, because, we've got to remember, vulnerability demands vulnerability.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: So if I pretend that I'm vulnerable, you'll be vulnerable, but then I'm like this is where narcissism comes in is I'm going to take what you give me and your vulnerability and I'm going to use it against you, against you, yes, so that is your coercion, that is your manipulation, for sure.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: Now, those who are overt narcissists, you're going to spot it.
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: Something is going to.
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: They're going to be the ones that feel as though I am the leader here and everything I say goes, and I'm not really worried about what you think about me, it's very.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: but there there are denominations, there are church cultures that believe that there are.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: There are.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: So they promote the narcissism and notice that if we go back to scripture, when Peter is reinstated, jesus doesn't say, peter, I will put you up here.
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: He said, on this rock I will build my church.
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: So let's know that man is not called to be the end, all be all.
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: Jesus is on that.
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: But those who promote that narcissism, yes, and often narcissists.
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: Let me rephrase that toxic cultures do not have accountability.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: If we think about Mars Hill, if we think about the sex abuse scandals, if we think about these different things, there was no accountability.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: That's how it went on for so long and so oftentimes, if a someone in leadership role is a narcissist, they typically have built around themselves people that promote whatever it is the leader is doing.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: That's kind of your overt part of it, and so they have no problem.
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: They think it's their right to manipulate, to coerce, to whatever.
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: They don't have a reason to tell you.
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Because, and in a Christian setting, they typically the term I hear a lot is they are the man of God, meaning no one else is hearing God but them, and and, and.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: I think that that that's a scary thing, you know.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: Um, the posture of that to me is a bit scary.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Um so, okay, I'll let you keep going.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: Um so, coercion is getting people to come along with them from a place of power and influence, right, um, and manipulation is preying upon someone's weakness in order to get them compliant and then Coercing them to do Right, right.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Hand in hand, If you see one you see another Right and coercion I'm just going to.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: There's a term called fog.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: Coercion can be used through fear, obligation and guilt, so a lot of this stuff works.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: If you're fearful, oh, if I don't do this I'm going to go to hell, or um, oh, what are they going to think of me?
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: I won't.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: You know, excommunication is something some organizations do, um, which is really hard.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: Um, what else was I going to say?
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: So, you know, the guilt is gosh.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: I really want to be a good Christian, so I might as well, I might as well just submit, I might as well just oblige.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: And all of that is good when you have the gifts of the spirit, when there's peace there, when there is joy there, when there is humility there, when there is love.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: And I think all of this, I think our entire spiritual walk with God, has got to be mirrored against the fruit of the spirit, because that, that really is the map.
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: Like, if, the, if the Bible gave us what the fruit is.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: That's what we should be looking for.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Are they bearing fruit?
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Is this peaceable?
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: Is this loving?
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Is this God's goodness and censorship, how does that look?
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, back to also covert.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: How does that look?
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: Yes, back to also covert, covert narcissism is they definitely use a lot of the vulnerability, in which they will use the vulnerability to gain commitment, to gain notoriety, to be seen as he's so humble or she is so humble.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: Um, when in actuality, they use that to again the enemy is good at what he does and he's going to bring in people that he knows he can use their fear against them, use their obligation and their guilt against them and I say he is a general term, but it can be he or she.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: So censorship is when a pastor or a leadership, anyone in a leadership role has said you know, if you really love God, you won't tell anyone about this Because you wouldn't want to see God's church hurt, god's church hurt.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: Or you know, this is so special between me and you that we really we don't want other people to know about it because this is so holy between me and you.
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: That is the form of censorship.
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: But notice, it's coercion, it's manipulation and it's censorship.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: We often see this with people who've been sexually abused by some religious role and it's continued for years.
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: Because of censorship, right, Don't tell anyone.
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: And I would even say small personal opinion.
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: I haven't found any research on this.
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: When churches or religious organizations, anyone, requires you to sign an NDA which is do not disclose, right, censorship.
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: Right to sign an NDA which is do not disclose, that's censorship.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: Right, 100%, 100%.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: And I mean I don't see where there is any room for that in church unless you're sitting on the board of directors and it's just business kind of stuff.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: But then there's accountability there on a board with other people, yeah, and I think censorship could take place in lots of, lots of ways where it's just the conversation is controlled, especially I won't, I won't name the denominations, but there are some where when they do encourage excommunication of family members, they're not even allowed to talk to them, they're not even allowed to be around them.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: And I think also what is used is to not be unequally yoked, which I totally believe in that scripture.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: But I think that can be used in the wrong way in censorship as well.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: And so I go ahead.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: I was just going to say I believe if someone is really has a prayer life reading their Bible, that the Lord will quicken in their spirit.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: Something's not right here.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: This does not feel good to me, you know, and pay attention to that, because that's, that's there for a reason.
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: And some of the research that I did, just as the background for my dissertation.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Um didn't even know it was out there until I was doing the research.
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: There is research on um, domestic violence, and how scripture um and is often misused and used as a form of censorship against the woman.
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: And men can be sexually abused as well.
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: Just the research I did were primarily women that were seen on that, but how that can be used as a form of censorship because, again, wives submit to your husbands.
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: So you have no voice here.
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: I'm telling you this is what we're going to do and if you don't, you know the consequence.
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: So oftentimes, coming out of that, they struggle again with some of that.
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: So this is not like I said.
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: It's not just in religious organizations, it's not just in a church, it's not just in a school, it can be across the board.
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: I love what you said earlier about having a check in your spirit If it doesn't feel right.
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: We need to listen to that voice inside of us that says that doesn't feel right.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: Often and I would say it in my own story was true because I had been in it for so long that voice was so dulled that it wasn't until I really started getting healing, I could hear that voice again.
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: Um, due to my own trauma, due to the trauma I was in and those kinds of things.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: So definitely it is.
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: I am not blaming anyone, any victim of this, but I am saying sometimes it's just hard to hear that voice and as we heal we can hear that a little bit better.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: Right, right, and yes, and I think you know I wanted to talk about too, like the normal, there's going to be times this has happened to me numerous times we'll have people come in church.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: You know, throughout my life I've sat in different services, I've sat under different preachers, I've sat under different evangelists, whomever it might be, and there are checks in my spirit, you know, and I will have to go home and I will pray about that Now.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: With that said, that doesn't always mean that what they said was wrong, or it doesn't always mean that what they said was faulty.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it is just me needing to work through my own biases, my own woundedness, my own sorting through if this is actually conviction or if there is a spirit of condemnation trying to come against me, because all of those can take place too.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: Right, it's not that we're just raising our hand and saying, oh, you know, I'm a victim of abuse, because this doesn't feel good to me, you know.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: So, with that in mind, how does somebody kind of determine the difference between normal ups and downs in a church culture versus how are they going to know?
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, this feels like abuse, or I need to look at myself first and figure out what's going on with me before I turn around and say it's their fault, because that line can get super blurry and maybe very narrow to where we don't always know that.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: So how would you help someone differentiate between what's normal ups and downs in church versus a religious culture where there is abuse going on?
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: So I definitely think, understanding you know, being able to identify what abuse is right, so you know is it is what you're experiencing, coming from someone in authority, and it's continual, like you keep feeling, you keep feeling that and that hasn't changed.
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: I would also say you know what context is this being done?
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: In?
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: Where are you feeling that those kinds of things?
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: Does it fall under coercion, manipulation and those sorts of things?
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: So you're looking at the totality of abuse and what it is and understanding that, okay, I am seeing red flags and I need to step back and go.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: Is this a red flag?
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: And how can?
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: Is number one?
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: Is this leader approachable to be able to?
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: I love that Because if there is humility there, that's a fruit of the spirit.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: I love that because if there is humility there, that's a fruit of the Spirit, and so it could be likely that it is not actual abuse, because there is a willingness there.
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: Go on Something, whatever it is.
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: I can you know from my own experience what I had to do is because I did find myself often going into a church and I would pick apart everything because of my own woundedness, like he shouldn't have said that, and oh my gosh, I can't believe you said that and it would just go on and on.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: I would drive myself crazy being in a service and I was like I can't keep doing this.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: I knew that was my woundedness coming up, and so I also have to.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: This is where, as as a therapist, I guess it's a blessing and a curse, because I knew what I was doing inside of myself.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: So, right, right, negative statements were playing in my head I'm no good, I can't do this.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: Um, I feel rejected, I don't feel worthy enough.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: But none of that's true.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: So I knew enough of that to be able to catch that negative thinking and go, stop, stop.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: Is that really what's being said here right now?
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: And so, taking that step back, rather than react immediately, I would go back and go.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: I'm a believer of a holistic look itself.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: So what is my body experiencing?
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: My body is often the first indicator that something is going on within me.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: So my heart may raise.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: The first time I went back to church, I remember my stomach at knots.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: My heart was racing.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: I was already looking for the exit as soon as I entered because I'm like I ain't doing this, like nobody had said anything, the church hadn't done anything.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: That's not abuse, that is my woundedness, and it was my first time after healing, and so that's going to be a natural response to a situation on there, right?
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, what is my body experience?
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: The next question I'm going to ask myself is what is my heart feeling?
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: Am I feeling nervous?
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: Am I feeling scared, worried, frustrated, overwhelmed, lonely?
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: What is it that is going on inside my heart?
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: So, if someone doesn't have a good what I call a feelings language, I really encourage a feelings wheel.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: That's out there.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: There are different emotions, but talk that through, really identify what that is for you.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: And then the last question was what is my brain thinking?
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm not safe.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: I can't handle this, and for me it was a lot of safety piece of that Like I would walk into somewhere, anywhere that I thought religious people would be and I wouldn't feel safe.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: Nobody had done anything to me in that space, and it's just because I'd gone into there.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: This was new for me and I'm like do I even want to be vulnerable enough to even have that opportunity?
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: God has worked through me and all of that and helped me to register that.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: But I think that's one thing we have to look at, that we own.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: The second thing is and I believe God does this for us throughout the Psalms, I believe David lays this out is naming our soul wounds.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: We have to know where we're wounded.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: Some of our soul wounds were not committed by church.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: Some of our soul wounds began way back in childhood and sometimes I have to sit back and go.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: That really isn't that person's fault.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: I know what that soul wound is.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: That's a soul wound of abandonment of rejection, and I have to sit with that, I have to grieve that, I have to work through that.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: Now, if I truly believe that something has happened, that person said something, that person did something, I too.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: We talk about the humility of the pastor.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: I too have to be humble enough to recognize my own things that I need to work through, and then I can go to the person that may or may not have hurt me and we can work through that together.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: But if I go in and I say I'm not the problem, you are, I'm repeating a cycle that has been done to me.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: Right A hundred percent.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: And I think, with a backslider who is trying to come back, walking through the door of a church after being gone and all of the automatic thoughts of feeling judged or feeling like you know, everyone's going to just give you so much attention because you're here, that is uncomfortable as well.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: You know there are so many things that they have to walk themselves through.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: I love what you said about the holistic view of self, because a person is going to feel it in their body, in their emotions and in their thoughts and for backsliders particularly, the hardest thing for them to do is grace the doors of a church again after so long of being gone.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: But just know, if you are a backslider listening to this, there is a lot of us in the church now who have come back and understand what that feels like and had to do it.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: I definitely had to do it myself and before I ever went back to my church of origin probably about five years before I went back, every time I would see someone that I would recognize as part of my assembly or something.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: The Lord would point out to me how I was judging them and he would convict me.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: You're judging them and yet you expect them not to judge you at all, and so if I wasn't even able to look at someone in love without judgment, how can I expect anybody to look at me in love without judgment?
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: And so I had to really work through that within myself is that remember, whether it be the church or personalization across the board, it's humans, right?
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: Yes, we are fallible.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: I am fallible.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: I will hurt someone.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: I pray for intentionally, but I'm going to hurt someone.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: I need to remember that I'm going to do what I want others to do for me.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: Um, you know, do not expect of others what you're not willing to do yourself.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: So if you're going to expect them to give you grace, guess what?
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: We're going to have to give some to you.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: Um, and so, being able to really go into a place of like, I'm going to give the opportunity to see if I can share this with whoever that leader is, and if they're a safe person.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: If they show me they're not okay, then I have tried, I've done my part by trying to go to them and then I've learned from that.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: But I think we have to remember that we're, at the end of the day, we're all human beings who are fallible.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: We are all people who are going to do something wrong, because that's humanity on there.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that we're less than it doesn't mean that we're not good enough, that we're not worthy or valuable, because god said while we were still sinners.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 3: He died for us.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: Um, he calls us valuable and we're a royal priesthood of people belonging to God, but we also have to remember that we are human.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, yeah.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: So we have to get our own healing, you know, along the way.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: So I think I hope for the audience that we've painted a clear enough picture.
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of cases we could actually talk about where spiritual abuse has, has, um, been concerned and and perhaps we will do that at another time um, but right now I just wanted to broach the subject of what spiritual abuse is and spiritual narcissism in the church and give people a really good definition, indication of what that could be.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: But I want to ask the question, now that we know that, what do you think the steps of healing?
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: So let's say there's someone out there that said sadly, I have seen this a few times where there was sexual abuse in the church from ministry and that is a very, very difficult.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think any abuse is difficult, but that one is a very common and very difficult.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: What would you say the steps to healing are for those who have been, who have been judged, who have been wounded, who have felt like they did not find community in their church when they desperately wanted to, or who has been alienated because they didn't do this right, or they're not doing this right and they're being judged because they're not Christian enough or not holy enough.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: So what are the steps to healing for that person so that they can reconnect either to their walk with God or reconnect in a healthy way to community within a church culture?
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, so you know, definitely I've developed this method of VALID acronym on there.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: So one is the first step is to validate your experience.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: Now, we can and I have a caveat to this and that we can validate it for ourselves all day long but sometimes we feel like I'm the only one validating this.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: That's another hard part with spiritual abuse.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: Two people can go to the same church and have two different experiences and so go ahead, sorry.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: And so what happens is when we turn to someone maybe that is, you know, in our small group, and we've had an experience, whatever it is, and they're like I didn't hear that Well, then we're like, okay, did I hear that wrong?
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: Well, we could have heard correctly, we could have had that experience.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: We sometimes wind up denying our experience because the other person didn't have the same experience.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: Right, the other person didn't have the same experience, right, and so validate means for someone to just say this happened, I felt it, I experienced that and it was real, and you have to be able to do that for yourself, even if no one else.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: If you know, I could be angry and I could be zero to 30 seconds punching the wall and I may not know why I was angry and just put a hole through the wall, but it doesn't negate the fact that I had felt anger.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: Now I probably need to figure out what's going on with me.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: But to validate is to just really say this was real for me, you know, and no matter what the circumstances were, it was real for me.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: The very first thing is, again, when we're feeling that body, mind and heart and we're feeling those things, we want to give a voice to that, even if the voice is in a journal or just out loud in our thoughts, whatever it is, we just you know.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: For me, being able to say this happened to me.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: I was disrespected, I was silenced, I was and I, you know fill in the blank.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: I needed to own that.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 3: Now, part of the problem was because I was so much in the environment still and nobody was validating it.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: That's where I did need someone to help me, someone outside of myself, to be able to say no, this really did happen to you.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: So if you feel like, look, I've given validation to myself all day long and telling myself, yes, you could believe this happened to you, and I still feel like I'm crazy, making in my head find a therapist again or a trusted person that you can express this with and receive the information that is healthy enough for you that you are ready to receive, that's a piece of validation too.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: The other thing is autonomy being able to recognize myself outside of others.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: So when we're in spiritual abuse environments, our autonomy is squashed Right, right, yes, recognize that.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: No, I am my own person.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: The.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: I am a person that God has created to have my own individual gifts and talents.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: It is not necessarily meant to be just like this person or whatever this person is wanting me to be Right.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: Recognizing you are your own individual self.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: And if you, because God, because God, you know the Bible says that we are all one body, but individual members.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: We're not all going to be the hand, not the feet, not the.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: You know we are all individuals.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: But I love what you said and I think that goes back to identity too.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: Like we are valuable in the person God made us to be and it is with a purpose, for a purpose.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: There is no accidents, and so autonomy is not I'm clarifying this for the religious out there.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: That's going to, you know, find holes in what we're saying.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: But this is not that you're going to go to church and say I'm going to be my own individual self and I'm not ever going to fit in with the crowd.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: It's not that at all.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: It's just saying that I have my own unique way of thinking.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: I have my own unique way of who God has made me to be.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: And God, if we're submitted to God and if we're submitted to our pastor in a healthy way, then there should be grace for all of that, for God to work all of those things out within ourselves.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: But we are working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, knowing that one day it's going to be me standing before God, not anyone else, not my mom, not my dad, not my pastor, not my friends, me.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: So that autonomy, I think, is so very important, because we don't always get that validation in a church culture.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, no one's going to save me but Jesus, and I'm going to have to answer for what I do.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: And so it's very difficult to find that balance of not just asserting yourself as an individual but yet being an individual at the same exact time.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: It's like what you said the other day both things can be true at the same time.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: The next thing is lamenting.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: A lot of us had an idea of what we thought church was going to be, what we thought ministry was going to be, what we thought fill in to be, what we thought fill in the blank family, marriage and sometimes, I know, for me it was a lot of God.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: I just, I know you called me to ministry but I did not sign up for this and I don't know how to work through this.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: I'm mad, I'm angry.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: You know how could this thing I longed for for so long end up this way?
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: Right, it was a lot of lamenting, and you know that is that it is beyond grief.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: For those who don't know what lamenting is, it is a true cry of the soul, of our rawest parts of us that are uncensored.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: Grief can be uncensored as well, but usually grief comes out of that lamenting, of really being able to say God, help me to understand this, because I got nothing on there.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: And so I think that's one thing we have to do too is to lament what we hoped would be and to grieve what has been lost through our spiritual abuse experience.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 3: I think also, identifying, recovering from spiritual abuse will take time, and we have to figure out what our own thoughts and feelings are, and also what trustworthiness is, what wisdom is, what discernment is, and so being able to sit in that and know that, to know that for ourselves, in our autonomous self, but also to know what that is as the Lord defines it, not just as society defines it or culture defines it, and so really sitting in that to be able to identify that.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: And then the last one is to develop, developing spiritually healthy habits.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: A lot of times in spiritual abuse, the autonomy was taken because, you know, there was a demand of loyalty, a demand of commitment and submission that denied self totally, the autonomous self.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, we are to deny self because we follow Christ, but there is a difference between you follow nothing else and no one else but me as this man or woman who reaches.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: And so we have to go back to what our spiritual is.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: What is it to sit with the Lord?
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 3: What is it to study scripture, not in a spiritual bypass way, not in a spiritual abuse way, but to truly hear from the Lord, so to engage healthy spiritual habits, really seeking God.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: What spiritual habit would work for me?
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 3: Because what works for you, kathy, and what works for me?
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: And knowing the Lord most may be different things, because we're two different people.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: That doesn't make it wrong, that makes it different.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: And so, as long as it's aligning with the word of God, and know this, if what is being asked of you is not following scripture, is not following the character of Christ, then it's not healthy.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: God is going to bring us to a place where we can know him in our raw selves and know him, the man who says come to me all who are weary and I will give you rest.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: And so being able to develop those spiritual habits that allow us to know what rest is, to allow us to know what conviction is not condemnation, to know what it is to walk in the fruits of the Spirit, as we've spoken through, without, but that's the valid method that can help us.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, I love that, and I think what's so awesome about that is like the first three come out of what was done to you.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: The last two is taking responsibility for yourself and then being able to do your own work and instead of blaming, instead of staying angry, instead of just cutting it off, I'm done.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: It is a call to really grow, identify the repercussions, and I think you know, in my life it's taken years and I can see.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: You know, growth is often a time span and so real, real, true things happen, but God is in the middle of all.
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: Let me say this God can redeem it.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: God, god can totally redeem it and restore.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: But we then have to begin to identify, like you said, how do I get better with discernment?
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: How do I get better at understanding myself so that I'm not so easily persuaded by a very charismatic what's the word?
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: Persuasive person?
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: And so the last one developing spiritual, healthy habits.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: I love that too, because it's accountability back to like, yes, this happened, but I'm not going to stay stuck here, I'm not going to stay here, I'm going to go on with God, and so I love that.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: That's so awesome that you coined that.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely yeah.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: So I know we have to wrap up.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: You're on a time construct, and so am I.
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: I want to just finish with one last question, again with the backslider in mind someone that has been wounded in the church, not part of community anymore because they have been hurt or they're angry or they have very justifiable reasons for blaming.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: What would you say to that person to where they can maybe try to take some steps back to a restorative process?
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 3: The first thing I want to do is to validate.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 3: I know we've talked about that, but I'm certainly sorry for the experience.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 3: No matter what it is, you were hurt and that hurt deserves to be heard, and so for that I want you to know that I respect that and I know that you may have to work through that hurt.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: I think the next thing that can be done is right now, wherever you are, you may have very much a distaste for anything religious, for any religious institution or thing.
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 3: Know that God's word hasn't changed in 2000 years.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 3: It's not going to change today.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 3: So if you can go to scripture, look at the Psalms, look at Lamentations, know what it is to lament, know what it is to cry out, god hears your every crying and he draws the broken hearted near to him, yes, amen.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 3: So start there with that and just begin to work within yourself this relationship.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 3: Just, you know, like God, I can't handle much of you today, but I can handle two minutes Great, it was two minutes more than you did yesterday and then maybe one day you can reach a place where you can become involved again in community.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: But it will take time, and also give yourself grace for the time that it will take.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love that, perry, that's so good and I will definitely have you on again.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: There is much that we could have covered.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: This is such an ongoing conversation, I think, but I'll figure out how we can do it again and maybe do some case studies, case scenarios to where we can give some very real examples and practical application for those listening examples and practical application for those listening right now.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: I wanted to introduce the concept because, as a former backslider, um, and as knowing other backsliders, you know not everything that happens to the backslider and definitely no abuse occurred in my life, um, but there was a lot of spiritual bypassing that I did to myself because it was what I known and what I was taught, you know, and and all of us are just endeavoring to do the best that we can, and so I just wanted to start the conversation for those to let them know that we do know this.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: This does exist in churches and there are, there are and has been some really awful cases.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: There's also a lot of good and you know, if anybody could do, what the Lord taught me to do is just keep my eyes on him.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: Then if I'm looking up, I'm not going to be, looking out.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to be looking at what someone's doing, how someone's looking at me, how someone's not talking to me, how someone might be.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be just looking at God, and that can be very helpful for someone who never left God but also doesn't want to go back to church, you know.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: So I will think on this more and figure out how we can further the conversation, but I hope that it was helpful for any who have listened and, um, again for someone watching.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: Please reach out to us.
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: You can reach out to Perry.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: Her website is parareadcom.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: Um, and that's R E E D.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: I will put it all in the description.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: Um, and you can reach out to me too.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: Our website is TheRedeemedBacksliderorg.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: Any last thoughts, perry, before we go?
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 3: No, just know that.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: I think the main thing is again remember people are human.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 3: We got to.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: God tells us, or David says don't put your faith in man, but put your faith in the Lord.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 3: He is the one that will sustain us.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 3: So continue to seek wisdom from God and know that man's going to hurt Hopefully not intentionally, but when it does you do have someone who will catch you, and that is the Lord.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: The Lord, yes, yes.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much for being here.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate it, and God bless everyone.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: Bye-bye.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: We are so glad you joined us.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: If you have a story of redemption or have worn the label of a backslider, we would love to hear from you.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to support our ministry, your donation will be tax deductible.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: Visit our website at theredeemedbacksliderorg.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: We hope you will tune in for our next episode.