Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / The Cleary Legacy: A Sister’s Fight for Justice | Lizzy Cleary [Part 2]

Transcript

The Cleary Legacy: A Sister’s Fight for Justice | Lizzy Cleary [Part 2] · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Apote production.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: This podcast contains descriptions of sexual assault and psychological trauma.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: It's not recommended for younger listeners, and discretion is advised.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shann I'm your host,
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Adam Shanner. This is the second part of.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: My look at the life and legacy of Vicky Cleary,
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: murdered by her ex partner Peter Keo in nineteen eighty seven.
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: Vicky Cleary was only twenty five when she was repeatedly
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: stabbed at a kindergarten by her abusive ex partner.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: In the first part, with her brother, Phil, we examined
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: what Vicky's death and the lack of justice symbolized in
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: terms of the struggle for women to be treated equally
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: before the law.
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: Phil Cleary, Vicky's brother, described the sentence of less than
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: four years as a miscarriage of justice, saying the law
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: reduced her killing to manslaughter on grounds of provocation.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: But let's not forget that Vicky was first and foremost
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: a person, a sister, a daughter, a friend, and a
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: community member.
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: Each year, supporters gathering Coburg to honor the life of
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: Vicky Cleary and remember victims of family violence.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: And I wanted to explore who she was and the
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: lasting impact of her passing. So I'm here with her
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: younger sister Lizzie to understand who Vicky was and still
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: represents to her family.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Hi, Thank you for speaking to me.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: My absolute pleasure. Thanks for making yourself available. And it
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: was great to talk to Phil and to get a
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: sense of the campaign that he waghs. Obviously it's had
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: a personal impact on him, but I wanted to spend
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: a bit more time just talking about what her legacy
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: meant to you as a person.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, So her legacy, she was everything to me.
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: So I was fourteen when she passed away, well, when
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: she was murdered.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: So I was fourteen.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: Nothing, So I passed away. You emphasized, you've done it
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: twice since I've been here. Murder puts it in a
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: proper perspective.
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: Absolutely, So passed away is in the nice terms, murder is, well,
• 2:20
  Speaker 5: she was murdered. So that's how now I'm trying to
• 2:24
  Speaker 5: change my way and now I'm coming out and I'm
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: speaking about my experiences about her murder. She just didn't
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: she just didn't pass away. It was horrific. It was
• 2:34
  Speaker 5: absolutely horrific. So, as I mentioned, I was fourteen years
• 2:37
  Speaker 5: of age. Vicki and I were we were very close.
• 2:41
  Speaker 5: So I was with her every single weekend for as
• 2:45
  Speaker 5: long as I can remember, and she was in my
• 2:47
  Speaker 5: memory at that stage. So every weekend, like I said,
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: I would be at her place, I'd be we would be.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Doing all sorts of things.
• 2:55
  Speaker 5: Also, she was my same height, so she's my big sister,
• 2:58
  Speaker 5: but she was my big little sister as well.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: And she was just beautiful.
• 3:02
  Speaker 5: She would light up a room, she loved children, She'd
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: lit up everyone, and everybody was just attracted to her.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: She was just magnetic.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: What were you doing at the time? What was fourteen
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: year old?
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Was fourteen year old Lizzie?
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: I was very quiet back in the day, and I
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: was at school, So.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I was a child that was.
• 3:23
  Speaker 5: I grew up around adults, so when I was younger,
• 3:27
  Speaker 5: I found it very difficult to hang around other children actually,
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: but coming from a family of adults, I found it
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: I communicated better with adults.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: So she was like my best friend as well as
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: well as my mum.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: And she was eleven years older.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: She was, yes, eleven years older. She was eleven years
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: when I was born.
• 3:43
  Speaker 5: There was a big age difference between myself and so
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: even Phil and even my next sibling up. So I
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: was the baby of the family. And even when I
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: was a baby, I was like her baby too, and
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: I was like the baby to everyone.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: So she used to.
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: Carry me around in prams and her and her friends
• 4:02
  Speaker 5: would be wandering around with me in the streets and
• 4:05
  Speaker 5: so on.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: But yeah, she was my idol. She was everything.
• 4:08
  Speaker 5: She even taught me about mother nature and the birds
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: and the bees and everything.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: So she was my She was my second mom, I
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: was going to say, more like a mother Figurestely.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: And she was working in the kindergarten. Yes, she had
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: this partner, Peter Keo. Were you aware of.
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: Him, Yes, I was aware of him. To me, he
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: was just a man that was there. He was a
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: bit older, but I was, you know, only fourteen. I
• 4:34
  Speaker 5: didn't really think anything of him. To me, he was
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: just like any other man that was there. Yes, he
• 4:40
  Speaker 5: had a lot of tattoos and so on, but I didn't.
• 4:43
  Speaker 5: I didn't see anything that was going on, and I
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: didn't really think much of him.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: I didn't think, you know, he was just there.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: And later on you discovered that he had a history
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: of violence. Yes, I guess you look back and you
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: can see the potential for danger that your sister was in, Yes.
• 5:00
  Speaker 5: And potential danger that possibly I was in as well.
• 5:03
  Speaker 5: So afterwards where and so my mum and dad did
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: not hide anything from me as a child. So after
• 5:10
  Speaker 5: Vicky was murdered, after all the court cases and so on,
• 5:15
  Speaker 5: nothing was hidden from me.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: Everything came out.
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: I knew everything that I knew his past history and
• 5:22
  Speaker 5: some of the stuff that he was accused of. I
• 5:26
  Speaker 5: could have been affected too. Yeah, that's a that's not
• 5:30
  Speaker 5: a good thought.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: No, it's not, it's not. And this is part of
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: the I mean, people could talk about the shock of
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: something happening, and I think shock passes away. But I
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: think I'm trying to find the right words for this,
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: but I think that shock settles and sets into trauma
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: very much, which becomes part of your psychological makeup as
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: you go through.
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: Yes, I think of her every day, But when I
• 5:56
  Speaker 5: think of her, or I think of how she died,
• 5:59
  Speaker 5: I think of him, And it just happens every single day,
• 6:02
  Speaker 5: And in fact, I can actually remember how how he speaks,
• 6:05
  Speaker 5: how he sounds, how we looked at that stage and minimal.
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: I don't really recall how she spoke, but he's prominent
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: in my thoughts every single day.
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: That must be frustrating and saddening that this perpetrator, who
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: really never faced justice as such, is overtaking the memory
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: of your sister.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, very much.
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: What did those thoughts about him take?
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: A negative?
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: It's very negative because I think about then. It's always
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: how she died. I think about what she must have
• 6:45
  Speaker 5: gone through that we didn't know about, how horrific things
• 6:49
  Speaker 5: must have been for her, and she managed to make
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: a break, She tried to get out, did succeed for
• 6:56
  Speaker 5: about four months I think it was, and was trying
• 6:58
  Speaker 5: to get her life back on track, and how happy
• 7:02
  Speaker 5: she was at that stage, but then there was still
• 7:05
  Speaker 5: stuff going on. That's all in my thoughts the day
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: that she died, continuously how she died, But he is
• 7:12
  Speaker 5: always there. It's something that I can't get out of
• 7:15
  Speaker 5: my head.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: Do you think you'll ever?
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: I don't think so. No.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: Have you had any therapy at all or chats to people?
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: I do.
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I've seen a number of counselors, and I've actually
• 7:27
  Speaker 5: found a lovely lady that I see now psychoanalyst.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: And we work through other stuff as well.
• 7:33
  Speaker 5: I've suffered anxiety, I've suffered health issues, But this is
• 7:38
  Speaker 5: the majority I think is the reason behind all of this.
• 7:41
  Speaker 5: But yeah, I think it's just because the situation how
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: young I was. He was in my life from the
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: time probably about ten to fourteen as well. They were
• 7:49
  Speaker 5: together for about four years. And yeah, yeah, I just
• 7:53
  Speaker 5: can't get it out of my head.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you to talk about it once more,
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: and I just apologize for that. But that day, what
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: are your memories of that day?
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: So that day, I woke up and I was feeling
• 8:08
  Speaker 5: a bit odd. I nearly said to Mum, said I
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: was never going to say can I have the day off?
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: But I didn't.
• 8:14
  Speaker 5: So I went into school and it was a beautiful
• 8:16
  Speaker 5: August day. The sun was out, and you know, it
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: was at school. It got to about lunchtime. I remembered
• 8:23
  Speaker 5: my friend and I were sitting on the school oval
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: and another friend came out to me and said, Lizia,
• 8:27
  Speaker 5: you wanted at the principal's office. And I've never been
• 8:31
  Speaker 5: into trouble at school or anything like that.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: So I'm like that was the nerd.
• 8:36
  Speaker 5: So anyway, off, we went off to the principal's office
• 8:39
  Speaker 5: and I see my brother Perry in the corridor with
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: the teachers, and I can see them there. They've all
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: got their heads in their hands and they're looking down.
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: And one of the teachers said to me, Lizzy, you've
• 8:50
  Speaker 5: got to go and get your stuff out of your locker.
• 8:52
  Speaker 5: And I'm thinking, okay, it must be just something. I'm
• 8:54
  Speaker 5: going home. And then my brother Perry walked me out
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: the school gates and he said to me, Lizzie got
• 9:02
  Speaker 5: some bad news. Vicki's dead. And I automatically said to him,
• 9:09
  Speaker 5: what did he do to her? He didn't need to
• 9:12
  Speaker 5: tell me first. I automatically knew that that's the reason
• 9:16
  Speaker 5: how he'd been behind, how she'd died. So I get
• 9:21
  Speaker 5: in the car, and my dad was in the car
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: as well, and my dad couldn't drive, so and I
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: remember we had a big, big, old yellow Valiant, so
• 9:31
  Speaker 5: I just laid down in the backseat and I was hysterical.
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: And we went to get petrol, and I remember, because
• 9:39
  Speaker 5: we were in the broad Feed, like a little country town,
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: we went to get petrol and we pull up at
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: the service station and back in the day, when they
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: had people actually come and put petrol in for you,
• 9:48
  Speaker 5: and we knew this man and my dad said he's
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: murdered my daughter. It was just the scene, the look
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: on this, It was just disbelief. So I don't remember
• 9:58
  Speaker 5: driving down to Melbourne because it was all blur. I
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: think I was crying all the way down. Everyone was
• 10:05
  Speaker 5: eating up at Phil's house in Brunswick. I remember just
• 10:08
  Speaker 5: picking up my bag and running through Phil's house and saying,
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: where's my mum, where's my mum, and ran all the
• 10:16
  Speaker 5: way back and my mum had managed to get out
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: to the backyard and she was just in the backyard
• 10:21
  Speaker 5: just I can remember screaming uncontrollably and I just ran
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: up when we embraced and she just held my face
• 10:30
  Speaker 5: and I can't remember exactly what she said to me,
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: but it was must have been something along the lines
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: of you know, our girls gone or something like that.
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: And I just remember there was numerous people around everywhere
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: and everyone was in shock. So and that just led
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: the day into the night and people coming and going
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: and thinking how are we going to get through this,
• 10:54
  Speaker 5: what are we going to do, how do we survive?
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: And so on.
• 10:58
  Speaker 5: I remember or so we stayed at Phil's for a
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: couple of nights and I was sharing the big bed
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: with Mom, and I'd just wake up and my Mom
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: would not be there, but she'd be down out the back,
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: just crying uncontrollably. And we couldn't We didn't know how
• 11:15
  Speaker 5: to stop that. We couldn't stop it. But my mum's
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: trauma was something beyond and my dad. My dad was quiet,
• 11:23
  Speaker 5: but my just seeing my mom like that, and my
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: Mum lived like that for the rest of her life.
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: But she was strong and she lived on for us.
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: And she wrote diaries as well, which I found when
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: Mum passed away, and it was just heartbreaking to read
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: little extracts. You know, VICKI, I miss you so much today, Vicky,
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: I wish you were here. But she knew she had
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: to live on and survive because of her remaining children.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: So you found those diaries after her death.
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: My mom was always very conniving and my sister, my
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: other sister, Dinah, and I would say, Mom, can give
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: us a little read of those diaries. No, no, no,
• 12:01
  Speaker 5: you're not reading them. I didn't find all of them.
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: I think she thought she got rid of all of them.
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: But I found managed. I was just sitting there one
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: day when my mom passed. I was cleaning out the
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: house and I looked down. I'm like some diaries.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: So we found some of them and it was just heartbreak.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: And this way of expressing it in her diary was
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: a way of dealing with her trauma.
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: Do you think, Yes, absolutely, my mum was heartbroken, absolutely heartbroken,
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: but like I said, she needed to survive because of
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: her other children.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: So people got on with things, didn't they. And there
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: was that view back in the day, and it's not
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: that long ago relatively, that it's better not to let
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: it go, better to keep going, keep living for the
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: other children. Yeah, I guess you're all watching each other
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: and seeing how you're coping. Did anyone ever ask you, Lizzie,
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: how you're going. I'll give you some strategies.
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, my mum and I've got a very supportive
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: family as well, so Phil's absolutely amazing. My sister Donna
• 13:04
  Speaker 5: is my best friend and we've got a special connection.
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: I call us the Special Sisters because there was a trio,
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: but now it's down to two and our connection is
• 13:14
  Speaker 5: absolutely amazing. And people actually even say to me, O,
• 13:17
  Speaker 5: Lizzie and I don't get along with my sister like that. Well,
• 13:19
  Speaker 5: you know, I love how you get along with yours
• 13:22
  Speaker 5: and we've got something special.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: We all help each other out.
• 13:26
  Speaker 5: We all know as well that we're all going through
• 13:30
  Speaker 5: the same thing.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: It's just it is a special connection.
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: And I find that now as well when I come
• 13:36
  Speaker 5: across other people that have lost siblings, daughters and so
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: on to murder.
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: The trauma of her murder is one thing, and it
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: is a murder, but then the cowardly piece of shit
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: contrives this provocation defense a mitigation. How did that sit
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: with everybody?
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Not very well?
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: And to me, I was going through the courts as well,
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: so I think at that stage I have been about sixteen,
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: and I went to every single court hearing as well.
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: So it was very intimidating to see these men there
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: and in, you know, with their wigs on, and the judges,
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: and to have him come through all the witnesses and like,
• 14:24
  Speaker 5: this is the guy that's murdered my sister in arm's
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: length to us was absolutely like something was horrific, and
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: to be in a room where he was just there
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: absolutely terrifying, especially for younger young people like myself anyone,
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: but it was just something that was just horrible.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: The law of provocation.
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: I didn't really understand how the law worked back then.
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: But then to see my sister, the way that she
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: was spoken about in the courts. I remember that they
• 14:59
  Speaker 5: were presenting photos to everyone in the court room or
• 15:02
  Speaker 5: the jurors. Now I didn't see a close of those photos,
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: but I can recall it was of her torso I believe,
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: and my sister was always a very proud person, and
• 15:13
  Speaker 5: I just think it was and the way that she
• 15:16
  Speaker 5: was represented in the courts, the way they spoke about her,
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: pretty much saying that she caused her.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: Death unsubstantiated theory essentially that Vicky might have said something
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: to him. I mean, this bloke had been stalking her,
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: threatening her, had a history of violence. I mean, I
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: think that more ideal with these sorts of stories and
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: talk to people who've been through this process. I think
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: listeners should bear this in mind that when you're a
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: family of a victim, there's nobody in the court for you.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: No everybody else is represented that you know. There's the
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: police are there, but they're not there for you. They're
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: there for the Crown prosecutors. There for the crown, judge,
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: for the defense, for the accused, who's looking after the.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Family, no one. We were lucky though. We were lucky that.
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: We had Phil who had a name for himself at
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: that stage and he was our representation, so he was
• 16:13
  Speaker 5: able to speak to people. I have gone into courtrooms recently,
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: or when I say recently, probably like in the last
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: five to ten years, and I have actually seen how
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: other family members dealt with and it's terrifying. I saw
• 16:31
  Speaker 5: a family spoken to in a courtroom and it was
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: just because one of their family members stopped the lawyer
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: and that was like five minutes and then off they went.
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: And that's how we get treated in our case as well.
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: I can't remember exactly what happened, but we even got
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: told we had to go and sit up up the top,
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: probably because I don't know, I think we sighed or
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: you know, said something, and we were treated just like terribly.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: That's our sister, that's.
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: Our daughter, and we get told, okay, you know, you reprimanded,
• 17:02
  Speaker 5: go up to the top.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: Just horrible, and the verdict and the sentence comes down.
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: Just remind people what Ko ended up being sentenced to.
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: Three years and eleven months is what he served, and
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: then he was out.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: We didn't know when he was getting out.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: It was also we weren't told when he was getting out.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: I don't believe.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: So here you are. Now, you're about nineteen, and your
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: sister's killer is getting released, and you're unaware of when
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: he's being released. Again, the system is bending over backwards
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: to accommodate the killer and entirely forgetting the family of exactly.
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: I'm also at that age where I'm out and about
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: and I'm thinking, do I need to look over.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: My shoulder as well? Is he around for my own safety?
• 17:52
  Speaker 5: Because we knew he didn't like females, so I was, Yeah,
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: it was a little bit scary.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: And this, I guess goes on for twelve years or
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: so after he's out of jail. What happens in two
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: and one.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: He committed suicide. A bit of relief for me. I
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: don't wish anyone to die, but some.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: People get their right whack. Okay, I'm not going to
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: advocate suicide or criticize people, but somebody does that. I mean,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, I shouldn't be saying this. I'm supposed to
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: be objective, but I'm going to When you see the
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: impact that is wrought and then a minimal sentence. You think,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: in the end, whether he's tortured by his deeds or
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: whatever's going on, he gets his right whack exactly.
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: I'm the person, like I said, I don't wish death
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: on anyone, but that was a relief.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: And now I think about other people that I come
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: across who have.
• 18:47
  Speaker 5: Lost loved ones to murder as well, and their perpetrators
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: are in jail, but they're possibly got to face them
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: when they get out.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: I don't have to do deal with that.
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: Relief for the family at this point, relief.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: For me, Relief for the family.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I guess you're expecting maybe things will improve.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: But we're talking before about how trauma sets becomes a
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: feature of your life. By this time, how had that
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: whole experience affected you?
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: Ah, so health wise it affected me. I ended up
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: having autoimmune disorders. And it was years later I was
• 19:28
  Speaker 5: going to see an dooctronologist and they said to me,
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: did you have anything traumatic happened to you when you
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: were younger?
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: I said, hi, yeah, said I had a sister that
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: was murdered.
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: And then it was like right, So, I mean, I
• 19:42
  Speaker 5: can't one hundred percent blame that. But everything started to
• 19:46
  Speaker 5: happen obviously, I was a teenager, I'd had my sister murdered.
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: I was then having health issues. Then it becomes weight gain,
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: it becomes confidence, all sorts of other things going on.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: I ended up with anxiety. I've had sleeping.
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: Issues, all sorts of stuff that It's been all of
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: my life. And I've seen numerous counselors, numerous grief experts.
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: Are finally found a psychoanalyst now, who I think is
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: making a difference in my life.
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: That's good. I guess it's a very tricky thing because
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: you're a survivor and you think yourself, well I survived.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Maybe it's just me. Maybe these things are just me.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: It's not that, And I've got to distance myself and
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: not be self indulgent. But at the same time, these
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: things are real, absolutely, and you've got to carry this
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: burden and trying to describe to people who have not
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: gone through this is very difficult. People in Australia here
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: live quite far from death. Death happens to old people
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: or cancer and things like that. When this violent death
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: is very difficult for people to understand what it's can
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: you give people a sense of it.
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: I can, and I often say, with the connection of
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: people that I've met that have got dealt with trauma
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: as well as in murdered siblings and daughters and so on,
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: they've joined the group that no one has wanted to join.
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: And unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know how you put it.
• 21:16
  Speaker 5: Every death is terrible, but it's completely different to your dad,
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: your mum passing away, and like I said, and that
• 21:22
  Speaker 5: really sounds really terrible. Every death is terrible, but this
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: is the way she died, how she died, how she
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: was feeling, she was scared, just the torture, and it's
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: just a terrible thing.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: It's just do I picture it in my head?
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny. I mean again, the risk of not
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: being very objective or sympathetic. I mean, my old mentor,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: Brian Francis Murphy your next copper, used to say to me,
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: some people need killing. And I think part of me
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: when you see some of the terrible people around who
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: inflicted this sort of trauma on people and then gain
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: the legal system, yeah, I do find it hard to
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: have sympathy for them.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: I'm not a person that supports capital punishment and people.
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: Obviously people might think that that's a bit peculiar, but
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: I just people need to do their time.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: They do.
• 22:14
  Speaker 5: Look, sentencing has improved since then, it's got a long
• 22:18
  Speaker 5: way to go.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: It has an awful long way to go.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: Well, I think it does too. And I think one
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: thing Phil and I talked about, which I think is
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: really relevant, is that the danger that women face when
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: they're getting separated. Yes, and this paper thin wall called
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: the AVO, which I don't think Bicky had, No, she didn't,
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: So I think it's worth less than nothing. Mostly it's
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: only as good as the police that enforce them. And
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: so I think that hasn't changed. I think it's actually
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: got worse in some ways. Frustration amongst men and the
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: propensity towards violence is shocking in this country, and I
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: don't think we're addressing it. And it's even worse in
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: the indigenous community. Actually, I might look at that there
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: mean sort of, and even there it's it's again an
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: UNPC thing to say, but this is black people killing
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: each other, and so it gets when it's white on
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: black gets a lot of publicity. But inside these communities
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: they're not safe. They're at the bottom of the of
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: the pyramids that we're of safety. You well understand that.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: And for you, I mean in your relationships with men
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: for instance. After that, I mean, how has that been affected?
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: I finally found a lovely man. But it was a
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: lot of confidence in between. I went through health issues.
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: I gained a little bit of confidence and I met him. Man,
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: he's absolutely wonderful. So we're going along really well. And
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: when I met him, I said, hey, listen, just to
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: let you know, this is my life and Vicki's in
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: my life every single day and that's not going to change.
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: But because it is hard on the in laws as well,
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: so they've got to put up with us, so to speak,
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: and be support. And he's at absolutely amazing And I said,
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: you know, this is my passion and he is now
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: promoting it. He's coming, he does the walks with me,
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: comes to the rallies, and he's putting up stuff on
• 24:16
  Speaker 5: social media to men and he's reading saying to the
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: men out there, you know you need to do better.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: So he's been absolutely fantastic.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: Fantast terrific shout out.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: I must say.
• 24:27
  Speaker 5: When I met him, I foot, you know, Phil feel
• 24:29
  Speaker 5: it's very important what phel things of him as well.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Phil said to me one day, Lizzie, I really like him.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: I really like him.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: I'm like few a stern test. I've talked to many
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: victims of violent crime and their families and one of
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: the current themes is that they don't want to live
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: with that all the time, and that there's a point
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: where they want to stop telling the story because it
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: becomes them. Have you gone through that as well?
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: No, because I want to keep on telling their story
• 24:56
  Speaker 5: and I want to help other people out there on
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: and to help other women as well. I'm now starting
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: to find my voice. I'm being an a I've joined
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: advocate groups. I'm a member of gen West, which is
• 25:08
  Speaker 5: a fabulous group that we do Victims Advisory Council so
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: to try and give suggestions how they can improve with
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: their services. And I actually attended a local council. I
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: tended Marybeck Council gathering last night for Women's Safety Forum.
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: And I want to fight for other women.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: It's so sorely needed. Give me a bit of a
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: run on your message then that you're advocating.
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: So I want to advocate because this needs to stop.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: It probably will never.
• 25:42
  Speaker 5: Stop, but I want to make it better, make it
• 25:46
  Speaker 5: easier for other women that are going through domestic violence
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: or violence. So there are ways and promote ways that
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: they can seek assistance and seek help and to get
• 25:57
  Speaker 5: out of it and survive.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: The police are doing much better these days than they
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: ever did, but I think on the other side of
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: the coin, more women are reporting domestic violence. Therefore, it
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: looks like a massive crisis, and it is still a crisis,
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: but we are seeing signs of positivity for the police
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: that they will attack this. I think the biggest issue
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: is around the AVOs and how they're enforced, and there's
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: nothing protecting women whatsoever. It's just the piece of paper.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: I've talked to Phil actually in the first part of
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: this interview about technology where these guys who are on
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: AVOs could have electronic monitoring and they can be done
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: just like the outsourced on the speed cameras that companies
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: doing that, and you'd monitor those guys and as soon
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: as they come within the prescribed distance being you know,
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: maybe given a big electric shock as well. Maybe that's
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: too much, but certainly an alert back to the system.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: I think because men are angry as well, there's a
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: lot of backlash against feminism in the Me Too movement,
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: a lot of men feel oppressed and they've lost their rights.
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and there's a lot of what about the men
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: as well? And look, I understand that violence against men
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: does exist, and sometimes it is the perpetrator is the woman.
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: But a lot of men that are getting murdered are
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: getting murdered by other men. So men are getting murdered
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: by men. Women are getting murdered by men. Yes, there
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: is a small percentage of perpetrators that are women, but
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: stand up with us too, don't just say what about
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: the men.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: I'm actually amazed. I've spoken to many victims of domestic
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: violence women, and I think they're paragons of restraint that
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: they don't wait till the perpetrators asleep and just bash
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: them over the head this type of thing. So the
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: women are actually keeping things together, the keeping the families
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: together off, that's right, and men have to respond. And
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: I think it's fantastic if you're finding your confidence to
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: speak on behalf of Vicky, because you wonder had Kio
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: had some sort of intervention earlier and been able to
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: gain some insight, whether it's inside jail or through whatever
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: program you know, maybe this whole thing could have been avoided.
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: Look, it's hard to say. Sometimes I just think that
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: it's just instilled. But of course we've got to try
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: and stop it, so from education when boys are young boys,
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: from their parents to and hopefully this is changing with
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: parents teaching. But yeah, we know there needs education out
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: there to stop them. The supporting communities. I know Phil's
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: big in the football community, but we need to get
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: out there and stop the men's you know, all that business.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: You know what happens in the locker room and all
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: that sort of stuff needs to stop.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: And some of this toxic masculinity we're seeing on the
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: internet now, people like Andrew Tate, Nick Foynte is a
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: few people out here who were trying to take us
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: back to an earlier era a sort of pushback against that.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: And I think that's so dangerous.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Extremely dangerous.
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: And you've got young boys that are very they just
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: look at them in awe and it just all needs
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: to stop, we know. Yeah, then that's where the frustrating
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: thing is. So that's where I want to make a difference.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly Phil has occupied his reef in his campaigns.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: It continues on. He says as a war against women. Still,
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: I think he's dead right, He's found that, he's found
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: a purpose. I don't think you're ever going to find
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: a meaning to this situation, but a purpose. How important
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: has Phil's campaign been and the ongoing involvement of the
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: family in the Vicky Cleary Day, for instance, how does
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: that go for in terms of providing a purpose for you?
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Extremely important.
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: I look at him and I just think I'm in
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: awe what he's done and what he's continuously doing. And
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: him and I we speak pretty much every second day. Look,
• 29:39
  Speaker 5: he provides me with guidance now because he's been going
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: through doing this all this time. So now he rings
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: me up and he gives me some lots of guidance
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: to say, Okay, maybe we go look at that avenue.
• 29:51
  Speaker 5: And now I'm starting to attend things where he might
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: not be able to and so on.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: So we're like.
• 29:57
  Speaker 5: I actually spoke to him this morning and I said,
• 29:59
  Speaker 5: we're a good duo, and he said, yeah, we are.
• 30:02
  Speaker 5: So he's yeah, he's absolutely amazing to me.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: So tell me about the Vicki Cleary Day. When is it?
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: And how do people may.
• 30:09
  Speaker 5: The twenty fourth? So I think it's a Sunday, May
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: the twenty fourth. There will be advertising going outs or
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: on social media. We put out as social media platforms
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: get people to share it. Also, Marribet Counsel are involved
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: as well, so they will be I'm sure they'll be
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: sharing it as well. And it's just a word of mouth.
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: We send out invites and it's a lovely day looks.
• 30:32
  Speaker 5: Sometimes it's a bit taxing, I must say, and a
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: bit emotional. We invite some victims, survivors, families to come along,
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: we have.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: A chat, and it's not just about Vicki.
• 30:42
  Speaker 5: It's about women in general, as in women that are
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: suffering or domestic violence or have lost loved ones.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: And in particular, I think the whole court experience was
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: about removing her voice from the court and that was assumed,
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: this provocation. Defense assumed actions that she may or may
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: not have taken. Probably didn't. So this sort of a
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: day gives her a voice back.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Absolutely it does.
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: And it's in Coburg and it's like stone's throw from
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: where she was murdered. We try not to make it
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: just to like where everyone's like crying and so on.
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: We had Mike Brady play there last year and that
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: was absolutely fabulous. So it's just to enlighten the day
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: and just say, hey, this is what's going on.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: We need to bring attention to this, We.
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: Need to stop, we need to come up with ideas.
• 31:34
  Speaker 5: And also it's in the footballing community, so you've got
• 31:39
  Speaker 5: young men lined up there or playing on the ground
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: that are then spreading this to other young men and
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: moving it around as well. And now we've got also
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: Cutton respects with the gender equality as well, which is
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: really good.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: We just need to.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: Do more indeed, And for you, though, are you still grieving?
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think you ever stopped grieving for
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: these sorts of situations. And I wonder, can you visualize
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: goal in your life where you won't be feeling all
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: those negative feelings and you won't be thinking about the
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: perpetrator and he won't be overwhelming the positive memories of
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: your sister.
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: Unfortunately I can't see that. I still think of her
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: every day, but I then try and do things like
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: football love my football love, my music, love, my travel,
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: so I try to bring those along. My other sister
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: and I going on a two month trip to the
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: UK and a little bit of Europe coming up, so
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: We'll try and just refreshing myself then, and of course
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: footy and we're Carlton supporters.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: That's a thankless task at the moment. I'm also Carlton supporter.
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and victim was a Carlton supporter, so and yeah,
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: so my dad was a massive Carlton supporter. So I
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: had no really saying it, and that's how I sort
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: of try and release my tensions.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: What's your advice? There are lots of these victims listening
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: to this, and they get a lot of mail from
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: those sorts of people, and sometimes they focus on the
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: fact that they were the victim. Why do they feel
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: so bad? Why can't they get on with things? Why
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: can't they move on with life? What's your message to
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: them about your experience of the murder of your sister?
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: Seek help, So if you feel like you need to
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: speak to people, there's help out there.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Whether or not that help.
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: Might might actually help at the start. Unfortunately I found
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: counselors and someone that don't actually have experience with murder.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: So you've got to try and find that right person.
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: And that's also what I'm advocating for as well in
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: my advocacy groups, to make sure that there is actually
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: trauma informed counselors out there, so try and seek assistance
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: with your doctor and so on. Reach out to any
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: organizations that you need that you try if you want help,
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: reach out to any of the organizations. If you feel
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: confident and comfortable that you can speak up, speak up,
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: reach out to even reach out to other organizations or
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: advocacy groups.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Sometimes, though, you've got to.
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: Be careful because if you have too much going on
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: and too many people reaching out, you can take a
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: back step as well. So you need to look after yourself.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: You can't carry grief for everybody.
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: Absolutely, and you can't resolve everybody's grief, so you do
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: need to look after yourself.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: That's good advice. I think I try far too much
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: to resolve these things. But I thank you for sharing
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: your story today, and I think your family has turned
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: a tragedy into something positive. Eventually, nothing will bring back Niki,
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: but Phil's work, your advocacy, your willingness to speak about
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: it will help other people get through this unimaginable tragedy.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: So I really urge people to seek out the resources
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: that Lizzie's talking about about. Don't sit in silence, talk
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: to people I'll put some resources in the show notes,
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: but we have to look at better ways of protecting
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: women in the society. We can't just keep solving the
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: hurt of this. We've got to prevent it more and
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: I'm really keen. We talked about in the first episode
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: the idea of electronic monitoring of men when there are
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: AVO situations to keep them away, to give women a
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: margin of safety which they do not have right now.
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: I think we need to have a community discussion about this.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: I want you to talk to me about this. If
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: you've been through an AVO situation where you've felt unsupported,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: not safe, or maybe you have, maybe there's some police
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: stations that have helped you want to hear those stories
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: as well, so Adam shanderwriter at gmail dot com, please
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: share the stories. There's no sense in being quiet, and
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: the Cleary family is a good example of that. I'd
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: love talking to Phil and Lizzie about this, and I'm
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: sorry if it's been uncomfortable with some people, but this
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: is an uncomfortable discussion that we have have to have,
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: So please get in touch. Adam Shanrater at gmail dot com.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: If you want to report a crime, please call crime
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: Stoppers one A hundred, triple three, triples zero. You can
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: always email me if you don't trust the cops. As
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: I always say, Adam Shandrater at gmail dot com, but
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: don't keep quiet. Thank you for listening. This has been
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: Adam shand for real crime.
• 36:30
  Speaker 6: Thanks for listening to this episode and supporting this story.
• 36:33
  Speaker 6: Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what podshape really
• 36:36
  Speaker 6: cares about. Right now, There's thousands of people listening to
• 36:39
  Speaker 6: this show and our other true crimes, and they're completely engaged.
• 36:43
  Speaker 6: More than ten million Australians listen to podcasts each week.
• 36:47
  Speaker 6: If you've ever thought about advertising your business in a podcast,
• 36:50
  Speaker 6: there's a link to reach out in the show notes,
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: or head to podshape dot com to book a free call.