Latest / Master Your Yoga Teaching with MaKenzie Fly / The Art of Yoga Sequencing: Consistency, Creativity & Observation w/ Matthew Sweeney
Transcript
- MaKenzie Fly: What's up, everybody, and welcome back to MyYT, where you are learning to level up your yoga teaching one masterful class at a time. I am currently pacing down a hotel hallway recording this unique intro for you because life has thrown some curveballs. Dare I even say some lemons. We had a beautiful week, and and honestly, that's not even true. It's been a beautiful week, such a weekend that I'm very grateful for. We decided to go visit our family. My husband and my family, we live in Las Vegas, but we went to Arizona, Bisbee, Arizona. It's a small town to visit some family and just get our boys together so they could have a weekend of cousins. So that was the main reason that we wanted to get out of town was to see some family. And today, actually, is my husband, me and my husband's ninth wedding anniversary. So we were trying to make it back in time to have a cozy little evening back at home. But the weather had other plans. So we hit some horrible rain, so much so that we received some flash flood warnings on our cell phones and just were checking the weather and kind of looking outside, like, should we keep going through this and try to drive the last couple of hours home in this or should we stop? And Just play it more safe since we've got kiddos in the back, we even have our dog in the back. Everybody was already really fussy. And so we decided to just pull over. This is not my usual setup for those of you that are my t listeners, you know. But if this is your first time and you're like, is this girl just you know recording on her phone in hotel hallways? Usually, is this her role? The the way she rolls. No, it is not, but we are just getting it done in whatever way we can. and I'm just grateful to be healthy, happy, and safe. And I'm wishing you all the same as well. With today's episode, I'm actually pulling it from a program that I created years ago. This was my very first online course, and it was called YT in Between. And it was for yoga teachers who just wanted to develop their skill in all arenas: cueing, making sequences, creating themes for their classes. Building out playlists that also mirrored the message that they were sharing and infusing into the experience and other strategies to stand out as a masterful yoga teacher. That was the the program. It was very comprehensive. And honestly, in hindsight, it is like a yoga teacher training program. But what I did was I pulled in guest experts to share their wisdom in the program. And so that's what this conversation that I'm spilling and leaking here on the podcast is today is a is a conversation with a guest expert that I had inside that program and Matthew Sweeney. And when I was doing this, I thought to myself, I love doing this. I love chatting with other yoga teachers, learning from other yoga teachers. I think I want to do a podcast. And that was the first time that I entertained the idea of having a podcast. And now here we are, years later, the show has been almost running for Three years, it's just really full circle and so sweet to go back and listen to these conversations and be like just then it was a seed of a thought. It was just a seed of a thought. And now it is planted, and I'm watering it weekly, publishing episodes and meeting some of you on social media and sharing messages and DMs back and forth, and it is growing. This community is growing, and I'm just so grateful for it. So it is awesome to Publish this chat here today, and I know you're gonna love it. Turn it up and let's dive in. speaker-0: Hello, hello, everybody. I am so, so, so excited for this interview with the one and only Matthew Sweeney. I'm actually here in Bali right now on one of his courses. And long story short, it has been a trip that I've been waiting for for a really, really long time. Matthew and I probably emailed, I don't know, maybe something like five years trying to get me here on this course. So it is so great to finally be here. it's honestly paradise. And the course that he creates and facilitates is just a really amazing opportunity. So I had to take advantage of being near him. And I'm so glad that he is open and willing to talking to you guys. So, Matthew, everybody who's in this container, they're working through an online course called YT in between. And the idea is that it's for yoga teachers. Who are in between either their 200-hour yoga teacher training and their 300-hour yoga teacher training, or just in general, they feel like they're in between being good and really, really great. So the people that you're talking to, or the people that are kind of watching this video, are already yoga teachers who are interested in becoming better or moving from mediocre to masterful. So, with all that being said, let's just dive right into the questions. Who are you, Matthew? Can you tell us a little bit about you, how yoga found you, how it's evolved, the teachers that you've been exposed to, the styles that you now teach, and just just about your story. speaker-1: Okay, well, hello, first of all. to people visible and invisible. I guess the first thought that popped into my head as you were saying that was I guess at heart I'm I I'm a geek. and so that comes with certain tendencies, one of which is a positive, the many of which are positive, but one of which is around Being kind of genuinely curious about things that you don't you know, that I haven't had either much exposure to or knowledge about. So I think one of the issues with any discipline that we might do, whether it's yoga or anything else, is is getting caught in one dimension of the rabbit hole, which I think it's good to go down rabbit holes, but but then at some point it's good to jump into another one to at least make a some kind of intelligent comparison around what's useful and not useful. So ever since I started doing yoga practice, my curiosity has been around not just learning but exploring things and then also discarding things that I felt were w weren't particularly useful. So it's it's not just about learning everything because frankly some things are are kind of somewhat unintelligent. It's not that everything's bad, but not everything's good either. and so that that yoga geek in me is curious enough to try things out and experiment and explore. So so you know, I I I can only say from my, you know experience with practicing these things, I guess it's now more than thirty thirty odd years, almost forty years or something. yeah, it's just it's just to keep that in mind. I I think There's a few things that go with that though, is that the the things that you do hold true or hold to be important, that that you need to still work on them and be consistent and practical with them. So on the one hand, we have a my want to learn new things, et cetera, but I'm also trying to hold ground or hold steadiness around what's consistent or what's important or what's a foundation. So that's really all I'm doing is is trying to maintain, at least in my mind, a a a degree of consistency and and practicality so that students have something to work with and so whether that's the breath or alignment or simple things like this. And as I evolve my own practice and un and and my own understanding, I would try out different things. And I would I would happily experiment on students and say, Hey, I'm gonna experiment on you with things like this. So I I just think that's nice because then people are quite willing to try new stuff, but also then hear my point if I'm saying, well that's good, but we've also got to do things that we may not want to do, but we know, you know, it's is helpful. So there's I think there's some measure of balance between those two. So I don't know if that really gives you any of my history exactly. I I just think it's a It's really a better it's a better overview than me talking about, okay, I started learning Shivananda Yoga, then I started learning Vinyasa Yoga, Ashtanga Yoga, Ayenga Yoga. I could go through that list if you want, but it's not I don't think it's as important for this kind of discussion. I'd I'd rather tell you that in all of those things, what I found in retrospect perhaps was have I have I been able to balance consistency with change, changeability, creativity. You know, and so if you're someone who's listening to this and going, yeah, I really love all the creative stuff, then my words to you are you need to focus on being consistent. If my words and you've heard, I love being consistent, I love doing regular sequencing, I love following certain patterns, then my words to you, not what you want to hear, you've got to change it up and do different things every day. And so whatever you heard out of that, you've got to take the other side of it. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, so beautifully put. and I think you do a really good job of designing sequences that do that for your students. So I actually found you, Matthew, first from your Ashtonga as it is book. That's how I became aware of you. And I really appreciated the way that you wrote. I think that you have a really a gift about writing of these really lofty ideas and kind of putting them very simply. Or even more so connecting the dots. I feel like you connected so many like questions for me. You should see my first copy. It's like basically the whole thing is highlighted. So I really, really appreciated the way that you that you write. So that led me to find your website. And in your website, obviously started to see that you designed your own sort of set sequences. Similar, everybody, similar to like how Ashtanga has primary series, secondary series, or like Bikram has the same 26 postures. Matthew has created his own sort of series or set sequences. So for yoga teachers out there who are struggling with designing sequences, can you talk about your process of sort of stringing poses together and how certain poses induce certain feelings and how certain series And certain set sequences can induce feelings. speaker-1: Okay, well there's just that one question could be a long because there's a lot in it and to be honest, Some of some of the sequences I've created have been a little bit I mean this this ends up sounding terribly hippie and randomly spiritualistic, but I I the when I hear myself say it, but in any case I'll say it anyway, because there's some truth to it is I you know, like Moon Sequence, for example, it was there in the ether. I didn't either think or follow. It was just something that seemed like it was coming through. It was something that just happened. And so not all sequences were like that. Some of them have been much more thoughtful or even intellectual. And I think that's o okay also. but but moon sequence particularly was one of those that it was just something that later on I looked at and thought, that's weird. I don't know how I did that. You know, I looked back and and just sort of went, Like any any any artist who's done something creative, that that can be the experience. Then there are other times where I've had to work a bit on, okay, this sequence doesn't feel right. I have to change something and it's gotten clunky or it's not it's not quite what I want it to be. Even me deciding to change how I wanted to teach the primary series. It was things in primary that I decided were clunky, I'll use that word, or inappropriate or impractical. And so Not just for me, I mean for students in general. And so then I that was a little more in a way intellectual 'cause I was deciding, well, what what's gonna be better here, this or this? And so I there was a bit more of a a psychological decision making on on what I was gonna do with that. And and other sequences it was just more the creative. And so again, I'm gonna use a little bit of a polarity example. I think both of those things are good. So I I think it's good to have some intuition around how you want a sequence to be, what what the general process is, you know, what the main main energy of the sequence is. Is it going to be more active or passive? Yeah. Is it going to be more backbends or less backbends? You know, because you can't do everything in one sequence. No sequence is perfect, despite what everyone might say. It's gonna have limitations or flaws, which is okay. It's like I don't think Moon sequence is perfect, even though it's it's came through me versus an intellectual idea. It it's, you know, there's things in it that I changed later on because it was like, well, I don't think that's appropriate quite how that is. And so little things I've tweaked over time. I guess that's one thing that I think as I'm saying this to to and this is my my impression, because I I'm coming from a certain background and point of view that a lot of I would guess a lot of people who are listening to this You're coming from a very different background, which means some of what I do you can't because we have different backgrounds. It's not it's just impractical for me to try to say, well, I did this and this, and you you can't follow that because it's unless you've come from the exact same background. And even if you have, it's still not different. So with that in mind, one of the things that I've I've thought of here as we as I've come to this interview is And it's not easy if you're let's say I I don't know with your with your membership here, but but if if you're going to be a vinyasa teacher, is that is that a general speaker-0: In general, yes. speaker-1: That's what okay. So given that idea, try to be consistent with a few of your themes. Don't don't change everything every class, because if you do that, you will be incapable of teaching a lot of your students anything but either just doing fancy stuff, which you usually means doing stuff that you're already good at, which is not what you should be doing, by the way. Not or not the only thing you should be doing. So you should certainly be teaching things you're good at, but but so there's consistency. This is one idea. I'm gonna get to a couple of the other points in a sec. So this is important so that if you're teaching a a class, whether it's dynamic like the primary series or some version of that, let me talk in those terms because it's what I'm familiar with. But let's say a dynamic sequence, you wanna be following some similar themes and structures, such as I do tr triangle posture and then I do pargraph. I have a few themes that I you that you will generally follow and stick with. Because if you do that, you can then start to refine what people are doing, when they're doing it, how they're doing it. If you keep changing it, you will not be able to help people properly. All you're doing ultimately is entertaining people, and that's totally inefficient. Now I understand why we want to change things because humans like we both hate. and love change. We're we're on a spectrum with change. But in terms of trying out new stuff and feeling a bit excited and interested, that's where Vinyasa yoga in general fills a nice niche in that it it it it challenges and also helps people to feel a bit of excitement and interest in something new. So I think that's very, very important. However, you also want to set up a a few key foundation elements. And whether it's a few postures that you're always falling back on. For me, it's things like standing postures. If you don't have a consistent basis for standing postures, including really being a bit of a pain in the ass to students on their alignment, then again, as a teacher, you're not really doing your job. So this is where consistency is so important. You know, teachers of Ayanga Yoga tend to overdo it, but they tend to be quite good at that because of consistency. They're saying the same things again and again and again. And after a couple of years, a few students start going. I get it. I get it. And so that's really important because then then you've you've got a a good steady platform to to grow from. And though I'm not denying the usefulness of having a few change elements, a few elements where you mix it up, you you try out a few different postures, you you have some ideas about, okay, if I'm working on and there's some intellectualization perhaps here, but it's anatomy of okay, I'm doing hip flexion or hip extension. Right, which one of those are you focusing on? Because if you're trying to do both in a in a posture or in a class every you're gonna make a mess of it. So you in this twenty minutes or in this set of half an hour groups of postures, what's my target? Is it is it backbends or forwards? Is it hip openers or tw what's the main aspect? Because if you just do random stuff all through your sequencing, you you you you're kind of lost. So are the students. Entertaining one. So you so there needs to be certain themes within the certain group of postures. It can combine a couple of things. It might be both balance and hip flexion, you know, standing posture, leg balances, and you might be doing variations on that theme. But it's good to follow what follow that theme through, and then you you may end up working towards a peak posture. I know we you've had this in the writing towards you may work towards a final posture. Now, but there there are a few ideas, so I don't know if you want to ha asking questions here at this point. But so one was about consistency. One was about with consist consistency is first. It's number one. It's not number two. Number one is consistent. Number two is adapting, changing, having something interesting, fun, exciting, that kind of thing. And so but consistency is your foundation. The adaptive part comes after. If you don't get students to a consistent point, using a lot of adaptive stuff like the exciting stuff is often a train wreck. In addition to that, looking at how am I following certain themes in a sequence that make logical sense. So some intellectual, logical anatomy idea of, okay, is this theme gonna work? Like because if you did the whole sequence, let's say you had an hour and a half and every single posture was a back bend, probably that class is gonna fail. By the same token, if every posture was a forward bend, I mean every posture was a forward bend. Probably the class is going to fail. So you need some variation, but you also need some consistency. Same thing here. So do I have six postures in a row back bends? If so, fine. When? Am I going to do it? First second, you know, timing, etc. So these are things hopefully you're all figuring out as you go, but also that you've learned through whatever teacher training you're doing. So there's three ideas I've presented. You can ask me more questions now, Mackenzie. speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's it's so much good stuff. And I really appreciate how you're trying to tailor what you're saying to the audience that you think will be listening to this because it is true, especially in the West and and in America with yoga teacher trainings, there's such a popularity of vinyasa. And with that comes the pressure as a newer yoga teacher to constantly create new and fresh sequences or just not be teaching the same sequence every class, which I've Found. I mean, I've experienced myself in the beginning a couple years of teaching and now leading yoga teacher trainings. A lot of the students come to me and say that they just they get burnt out really quickly. And I think a lot of people also fear teaching something similar and they don't really understand how 80% of it, 85%, 90% of it might be the same, but you're only changing a couple of things every class. Right. So there's definitely, there's definitely that. I guess like lack of trust that your students they actually benefit from experiencing pretty much the some the same thing again and again and again. And they need that reputation. speaker-1: Right. The problem here is not a it's not a physical problem for the teacher or the student. It's a I don't mean this in a mean way, I mean it 'cause we all encounter it. As a teacher, the problem is almost purely psychological. And and the reason for that is because you may and this the part of the problem may be if as a teacher, if you're teaching twenty classes a week, which personally I don't think you should do e ever. Well if you do if you do, it's maybe a month and then you figure out that's too much. And you start teaching less. Because if you're teaching upwards of 15 to 20 classes a week, you will probably burn out. It's fairly likely. Some people manage it for a while, but then they're quite their classes are usually really stale because it's the same thing every time. That's just how some people are psychologically. So if but if you're going to do similar things each time, you as a teacher, you need to reset every in your mind, you need to reset every class. Every, every not only the students, there's different students in every class, usually, but even if it's the same student, that's a different person in front of every time. And if you don't reset that in your mind, including your dialogue, because your dialogue may be much the same each time, the postures may be much. If you don't somehow reset psychologically, you'll you'll start getting really, I'm doing the same and you you don't feel fresh. Here's a trick that I use, and I I'm both really good at this and really bad at it. Bad, I will explain what that means. And so try to use in an in as kind a way as you can. No meanness, no antagonism, try to use humor. If you can create humor in a class somehow, not just all serious nuts and bolts stuff, some you you you as a teacher can be a bit more alive. I don't just do that for my students. I find my own joke jokes quite hilarious and funny and no one else has to laugh. This is where my this is where my humor is really bad and I will I will admit this. But it it I I use it as a mechanism to refresh myself and to reset. and so I'm not saying y people have to be copying my humour because you y you can't copy any anyone else's humor. But you have to find and I use this term, aliveness in what you're doing, freshness. you know newness if and even if it's the same triangle or the same downward dog you're doing every time, you've got to find something fresh in it. And it might be just the student and and how they're doing it. And you can find a connection that's unique there. Because if you've got to teach similar stuff every time and then the as Mackenzie said, maybe the 10% is where you change, but the 90% has got to be some consistency. So the way through that is just as I say, I call it resetting. However, you manage to do it. You know, don't come to a class with the idea, I'm gonna do the same thing again. Change one little thing in the class. speaker-0: That's great, Matthew. And I think especially beginner yoga teachers who are trying to be a full-time yoga teacher, they're like, I agree that you can't teach 15 to 20 classes, but I still have to pay my bills. And so they're hustling because they they need to make a living. So then it becomes absolutely necessary that you have these sort of reconnect rituals or things to help manage your own hygiene spiritually, energetically. So that you you can stay fresh. And they don't have to be like mind-blowing or monumental things. I love how you're saying just kind of implementing a moment of humor or something that I really like to do is just go in between classes and just wash my hands and feel like I'm kind of energetically cleansing the palate between. And another thing that I found really useful is changing the story of when I do feel that sort of lull, either in my teaching or how I feel about teaching, instead of thinking that it's a bad thing. I actually start to think of it now as a sign, it's a good thing. It's actually feedback for me that it's time to either take a break, whether that means going on a retreat or finding a different teacher for a little while. Because I think that, you know, when you are teaching 15 to 20 classes, you kind of are in that sort of consistency place. You are doing sort of the same thing, same thing, same thing. So it's nice to to get outside and do something different, just shake it up. speaker-1: Yeah, and I mean, of course, and I understand the the either confusion or necessity to have to teach a certain volume of classes or just to work like any job that we might might choose, and teaching yoga ultimately is a job. And so if you're if you're choosing to do that full time, then the you know there's a certain level of commitment that's required there and time and energy and so forth. And so getting to the point where a class is earning you more than thirty dollars a class is something we all have to w work towards and aspire towards and you know, trying to change things so that, you know the earning for each each teacher is makes you know, it makes the energy output worthwhile. Whereas, you know, 'cause if you're teaching consistent classes and you're only getting one or two students, that's you know, there's a certain point where most people have give up. And that's you know, and that's quite understandable also. So trying to build build quantity but also build quality. So, you know, those things can they can go hand in hand. speaker-0: Yeah. So in general, I think I I had this in my mind and then we kind of went off on a tangent, but I wanted to go back to it because you were you were dropping some really great nuggets of wisdom. As far as just structuring classes, and I even noticed this with your sequences. There there is somewhat, I mean it to me, it makes me think of a Shanga in the sense it's smart as a yoga teacher to stick to some sort of salutes in the beginning, some sort of standing postures. Some sort of seated postures and some sort of finishing postures. So if you were to kind of look at the general arc of a class, and this is where, like, I think there's a a different way to think of a peak pose or like a peak moment in a class, every class should kind of have an arc, whether you call the arc the peak or just the the arc, the general feel of how a class should have moments of working up to something and then coming back down. what else? You would you would you dropped, I think maybe three things. You said you need to balance the familiar and the novel. Are there any other just principles or guidelines that you find really helpful when it comes to designing sequences? speaker-1: okay, one of those is you as you mentioned is is and and this is not something that all of these guidelines are guidelines, they're not rules, they're not things where you have to go, okay, I absolutely have to do salutes every time. So perhaps you decide I'm gonna do core strength beginning and then we'll do standing force, just no salutes. So there's an so there's any number of ways you could begin a class that might not include salutes. Similar standing postures are good foundation, they tend to warm us up, they tend to work nice on stability and alignment for particularly for the legs. And so standing postures are good, but again, you could design a sequence without necessarily having that, particularly say if you want to do more of a yin yoga class, for example. So there's a except you know, there's obviously except exceptions for for every rule. but that's one example. There's a general flow, we want to have salutes standing. Sitting, finishing. I I I often break sitting into you know first half and second half. And often second half for me when I teach will often include usually include some backbending, extension, hip extension, back bending, those kind of things. So back bend theme is usually in the second half. I don't usually do a sequence with backbends in the first half. But it depends how long you're teaching for. So if you if you're only teaching one hour classes, that's quite different. I have a tendency to teach two to three hour classes. I prefer longer classes. But a lot of teachers can't afford that time. So again who are speaker-0: I'm envious. I'm envious of that. speaker-1: Right. A lot of it's gonna be hour and a half to hour. we can talk about that at the end too. There's ways to develop that, but you you need to create that you know, particular environment for it. so that's one that's one thing that I think is generally good. So yeah, so I salute standing, sitting part one, sitting part two, and and finish. Finishing is it just as important as beginning. So pay attention to pay attention to beginnings, that's where you should have a little bit of dialogue. i as in terms of not just structural dialogue, but it and you don't have to be depends how hippie you are, but you know whether you like flowery language about Sashunanadi or Krishna or something, or whether you just like to set an intention for the class of okay, today I want to focus a little more on center of gravity. That's our intention is to find what that is. Whatever the intention is. Or it could be something a little more I want to find a little more quietness and peace of mind. So those are intentions we can do in the intro, but they're also something you could finish with in the outro. So I think those are quite quite good to set for any class. So we've got nice bookends around the class. And then in the middle, we've got a a little bit of a story between perhaps a few different books. so that's one. Number two would be structural familiarity. So is my class focusing a little more on Hip extension, outward hip movement, arm balances versus hip openness, back bends versus forward bends. I mean, you can compare and contrast and combine, but you can't do you shouldn't do all of those. So that's another theme. Some of that should be anatomical. It shouldn't just be, I just feel more in my heart today about back bends. You're probably gonna make a mess of that at some point. So as a teacher, Keep studying, keep learning your anatomy. Like it's not hard. Just okay. Here are the hip flexors, here are the adapters. Just just once a week. Just take some time to and then you'll get some ideas from that. Go, if I do postures with this, maybe that's gonna help with this. And so there's some nice nice little pieces of logic with that. So just following themes of and it could be either postures or anatomy to to Have a an overall arc and a story there. They shouldn't all be the same, but there should be maximum two or three themes in a class like that versus six or seven. You know, too many themes and it's it's a mess. So that's what are we? Is that number two or number it doesn't really matter? Number three or four. Here's a big one that I think is important. Every class, and this is for you as a teacher, not just the students, every class should have a few things that you you're naturally fairly proficient. Maybe it's downward dog. Maybe it's backbending. Maybe it's some version of arm balancer. Not that you would do those every class, but every class should have some things that you are fairly proficient with. Some classes should have, or most classes should have things that you are not so proficient with. And maybe you as a practitioner are not very good at core strength and sit-ups. They should be in your classes. You should not be avoiding that and then saying to you, well, and just just because you're no good at something, that's exactly that's part of the thing you should both practice and teach. Doesn't mean you should now having said that, there is a line in the sand with this, and it is a line in the sand, it's not a you know, a hard thing, but having said that, you should not be teaching things you can't do at all. So, for example, and this a lot of people don't want to hear it, but if you cannot rebalance in handstand, you should not be teaching handstand. That's just a rule. If you can't fully do Urd Vadana rasana on your own, fairly straight arms and legs, you should not be teaching it at all. Doesn't matter how much you think you should be doing those postures for the students. If you can't do it, you don't teach it. Now if you can do it and you're not very good at it, you should still teach it. speaker-0: that's an interesting I mean are you speaker-1: And there's a funny little gray zone in that. It's similar with things like sit-ups or core strength. I'm not saying you have to do sit-ups in yoga classes because people can rebel. But some measure of core strength, which a lot of yoga teachers don't teach, sadly. but you should be doing some of that even if you're not very proficient, because it's a real important part of any physical practice, yoga or otherwise. And so on and so forth. So maybe you're not very good at arm balancing. well, there you go. There's some research you're gonna have to start working on. And again, don't pick the arm balances that you absolutely can't do or that you're most entertained by. You pick the arm balances you you can do kind of, but it's not real pretty. And start teaching and you learn as you go. And because then your students, you're giving a spectrum. So it's things you can things that you are proficient and not proficient with. And the other way I put this is things that you like and things that you don't. And if you don't include things that you don't like in your teaching system, you are you're you're running running with the ego way too much. That's a great whether you want whether you want to or not, that's what's happening. So there there must be a spectrum between I'm good at this and no no no practitioner is good at all of it. There's no way. And so you've got to work on the bits that you're a little bit speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. And I think it calls upon you as a student and a teacher to start to be aware because I think we do that unconsciously for sure. speaker-1: Avoiding I mean and it's really natural too. It's like, you know, if you're if you've really got weak legs and weak quads, you're not gonna work on squats. You know, you just go to any gymnasium and watch guys working out and they're all upper body and most of them will look because it's just how men tend to operate, is look at this, this is the stuff we wanna see. And you don't see other than the ones who are really working diligently, they're gonna do arms and legs. This is just one simple simplified example. But the same thing happens. You go to most Vinyasa flow classes and you've got there's often two styles. One is the forearm balance teacher, no back bends. The other one is the back bend teacher, no forearm balances. And usually because they're good at one of them, not the other one. And you go go to for classes. The good teacher will be doing both of those and everything else. Some of them are good at three or four things, and then they're still avoiding core strength or maybe even pranayama. I mean, some people are really lousy at If yoga's not a little bit about pranayama, personally my view is it's not really yoga. And so how many yoga teachers doing vinyasa actually spend a little bit of time teaching and studying and practicing pranayama? Not that many. Again, this is your job as a teacher hearing this to go, okay, I I don't want I don't want to be one of those. I want to learn everything I can. And then the basics of that I want to then share with my students. speaker-0: That's great, Matthew. And that there's so many things within that. the first thing I I heard, and and these are some of the principles that I've received from my teachers and that I share with other teachers in training is you definitely have to unite the opposites. And you could do that in in many, many ways, whether you're like you said, balancing the familiar and the novel or what you like, what you don't like. In general, too, some other principles are trying to make sure that your sequence is balanced a little bit between your upper body and your lower body. Right. Front of the room, the back of the room, the right side, the left side. Then another principle that I usually talk about is you can't fake it. And I think you spoke to it a little bit, is that you you have to continue your own practice because the the highest form of knowledge is direct experience. And it's interesting what you're saying. You're like, if you haven't directly experienced it, you're probably not going to be the best teacher of it. So if you can't actually do it at all. maybe maybe you shouldn't start trying to teach it. And I think that that definitely is probably a hard pill for some people to swallow, but it comes from a good place. Right. And then speaker-1: No and then and the the beauty of the grey area too is and and this is the thing that perhaps as teachers we don't always notice or we're a little bit shy about because you know you it's normal when you're in front of a group of people, you wanna do the best job that you can for them. But also when you're, for example, demonstrating a posture or something like this is you you you wanna make it look good. You don't wanna unless you're demonstrating and saying this is what you don't do. But often enough you're trying to make it look good. But then it it it humanizes or make makes you more approachable and more more connecting as a teacher if you then say, Look, I'm not really good at this, but I want this is stuff and admit it right off the get go. And then students will actually pay all of a sudden, they'll pay more attention to you, not because they're mean, maybe sometimes, but not really because they're mean. It's just because they're like, well. this is interesting. The the teacher's showing me something that they're not good at, but they think it's still really good for me to learn. And it it it catches the attention and then they're more resonant with you as a person when you say, Look, you know, my backbends, you know, I'm I'm super tight in this, but here's the stuff that we do to help that. Here's stuff for the shoulders, here's stuff for the hips that help our back bends. And then the students are are gonna be very respectful then because they're like, Wow E Shi really knows what they're doing because these are the stuff that I need because I've got trouble with backbends too. So it's it's very connecting. Versus if you're always better than everybody else, you won't really have the best the the best kind of way of teaching anybody because it's always a like a split, a hierarchy between the teacher being really superior, whether it's knowledge or ability or whatever, you know, it's it it it it separates us a little bit too much. So yeah, I I can only encourage teachers to in a in a s you don't have to get into a sob story about how bad your back bends are. You shouldn't do that. But at least to inform the students, say, look, this is something I'm often not comfortable with, but but it's still I'm still doing it. And so here we go. And great. And as I say, people will really they tend to resonate quite well with that stuff. speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. I think in general there is a danger to demoing a lot of times, especially in some classes in the US. I notice teachers demo for lack of being able to articulate with their words. And I think sometimes if you demo all the time, you're you're basically ruining pratyahara. People are so drawn without, always looking, looking, looking instead of tuning in and sort of feeling. So I I think it can be done really well. It just takes some practice. And I I like what you're saying too is like kind of humanize or or dissolve that hierarchy. And it's not it's never a performance, you as the teacher trying to demo something. Just kind of give a quick picture because a picture is worth a thousand words sometimes. speaker-1: It does help, and some people are you know they're kinesthetic and visual learners. And so seeing it and then mimicking for some people that's how they arrive at the experience for themselves. But others are you know more audio or you know just more internal somehow, and so they need to work that out a bit differently. Yeah. This all right, this le this gets me to another one that I think is quite interesting. If I was to give a a spectrum of a beginning teacher towards someone who's more experienced and also generally more comfortable with teaching, it goes like this. Beginning teacher, number one, too quick. Number two, demonstrates all the time. Right. So if the faster you go with vinyasa and the more you demonstrate, to me, the more that indicates you're a absolute beginning teacher. And that's fine. You've got to start somewhere. And that's perfect way to get yourself into what you're doing. But that's where we start, is is fast and demonstrate everything. The step past that is not the opposite, but slowing down a little so your classes become more top more graceful and to more timely. You know, more consistent with the pace. So the flow is more like this versus bum bum bum bum bum bum. And so the the flow is more graceful. So we take more time with the instructions. You don't have to say, as someone comes into trikonasana, 15 instructions before they reach the ankle. There's different kinds of speed. One is l physical speed, but there's also verbal speed. And so beginning teachers try to say too much, they try to adjust too much, they try to do too much. Classes are too fast. And that's 99% of the time. So you want to slow down your words. You want to not have so many words. You want to be very thoughtful about what words are used. Same with your adjustments. You don't want to adjust every student, every posture. You don't want to spend all of your class adjusting everybody like crazy and ruining your own body just trying to adjust everyone in every posture. You've got to take a bit of time. Take a deep breath. Slow it down. Slow down your Thought process. Right. So and then look around the room, see what people are doing. And so then we stop demonstrating quite so much and we can start to verbally say left foot here. No, not that here. Left foot over there, this here. Your other. Yes. Just be able to be clearer. And so students versus just as some teachers would do, left foot here. Left foot here. Left foot and you just get louder with the same instruction. I mean, I do that as a joke, I think it's quite funny. But it's you're you're not helping because people all they're hearing is left foot here, and they're like, I didn't understand the first time, so I'm not going to understand it. So change how you're saying. But we're getting used to your verbal instructions and watching how the the students are responding so that you can instantly adjust as to whether that's understood or not. So that's kind of s second phase. Then third phase is when you can say something. This is where this is most vinyasa teachers will never arrive here. And I'm I'm sorry, I was just this is how it is and it's fine, but it it means there's a limit in the experience. And this is third phase where we're getting into whether it's a lead class or a self-practice class, even within a led class where you can give a simple instruction and then walk around the room while they do it, even give an instruction on a posture. Get everyone to do it and you don't have to say anything. You can just go around and correct a few people for the next minute or so while they're breathing, holding the posture. So there's a phase where you also don't have to talk. And if you're not engaging with that element, and that's it's where the class it requires students to have a certain amount of experience and knowledge. It requires you as a teacher to be quite consistent with your both your dialogue and sequencing. So, for example, let's say you're teaching people salute to the sun. Any version of that salute, it doesn't really matter. But you're consistent enough so that students know your version of the salute. And then maybe on the last one or two rounds, you say, now do it yourself. And you go round and individual and and there's a as a there's an atmosphere of that where students all of a sudden in that moment now they're practicing yoga because they're not listening to you, they're not following your instructions, they're not externalizing what they have to do. It's all an internal practice of me breathing, salute to the sun and what's going on. And then you can do different things with different students. Now I'm not saying every teacher has to arrive at that place, but I'm just pointing out these three stages. So there's the first stage, which is faster, more demonstrating, more instructions, everything verbally and physically is a bit quick. Then a second stage, which is slowing all those things down. Not so instructions are verbal, not so much demonstrating. you can look at the room a bit more because you've got time to do so. And then a final stage where where You can decide what to do, you don't have to talk at all. Mm-hmm. speaker-0: And set them free. I find that that was a that was gold itself, Matthew. Thank you for saying all of that. I find myself really lucky just from the lineage and the teachers that I've had in the States because I completely agree with you. A lot of vinyasas lack of vinyasa styles and vinyasa teachers lack a lot of that. but the the history and really lineage that that I follow and a lot of the students that are under me also follow does have a nice balance between guidance and freedom and is similar in sense of having pockets of being guided by the teacher, but then are also encouraged to be set free and have moments of self-practice. So it kind of unites that sort of west and east. And it it gives people a taste of that without feeling like, you know, they're just dropped in the middle of the ocean and have to figure it out all on their own. So that that's really, really, that's really beautiful. And it is so true that that's kind of the stages. So I I think a lot of people listening to this will find that. That's helpful and be able to see where they are and know where to go next. So the next question for you is what are the benefits of teaching the same sequence again and again and again when it comes to developing those stages? Because I always encourage, I try to get more and more people to spend time practice teaching the ashtanga, at least primary or some sort of short form version of primary that's a little more accessible to more bodies and do it again and again and again for that sort of exploration that you were talking about in the beginning and more importantly the refinement that happens from doing it again and again. So can you speak to some of that? speaker-1: Well, okay. So that I I I mean I think it's most of us well I s I I hope most most of us know this instinctively already, but perhaps I can I can put a bit of a light on it. So There there's a benefit and a drawback right from the get go. But the the benefit is is in when we are consistent, There's a kind of a comfort and a knowledge of what we're doing. And so I'll give this example. If if anytime we go to a new teacher to learn anything, it doesn't really matter what it is, but anytime you're going to a new class environment, new teacher, our anxiety levels climb significantly. And the the the more important you make that teacher in your mind, or what you're learning, the more important you make. Like, you know, let's say it's a even a a teenager who has to go and do their first driving test. And and the level of anxiety depends on the teenager, of course, but can be incredibly high. Or driving, not driving test, driving lesson with a with a driving teacher. And so the anxiety levels can be really through the roof and they're trying to mask it, go, I'm not nervous, and meanwhile, you it's like and so and then after five or six lessons, once you get comfortable with the teacher, and particularly the teachers giving you the same as instruction. Handbrake on, 10 and 2, eyes front. You know, and most driving instructors they'll start with stuff like that. And then you do, and you do that every time. Handbrake on, 10 and 2, eyes front. You get back in the car. And a week later, you're sitting there, handbrake on, 10 and 2, eyes front, and you're completely relaxed. So that's that's the first thing that a consistent sequence, it's not about. physically improving in fact. It's the fact that you're not an anxious train wreck of a person going, 'cause in ex externally someone might looks beautiful and perfect and they're just sitting there listening to me. But internally they're nervous as hell because they've never done this thing before. Mm-hmm. Like all the first time someone like it's when I do a meet greet and they all sit round in a circle and I guaranteed half the group's quite nervous 'cause they don't know me and they're like, I don't know how this guy's gonna be. I hope he's nice, you know, I hope he's not gonna make my bad knee worse or you know all the things that happen with a with a fresh encounter with anybody. And so just doing something a little bit consistent helps just that nervousness go away. And then we have all sorts of improvements. We concentrate better, we relax better, we focus in a a more total way versus just focusing on a little bit because I'm I'm too distracted by the the energy being so frantic. And for some people, that takes years because some people are just way more nervous than others and just ha you know have a significant amount of anxiety. And so as a teacher, you want to help people to be less anxious. I mean, that's a that's a good thing. And if you're always changing, maybe for some people, always changing things makes them feel less anxious, but it's not usually the case because it's the reason why people like change is because they want excitement, which means that particular person has a positive relationship with anxiety. usually. Because because they they lean into anxiety as excitement. Anxiety and excitement are like are like inseparable twins for the most part. And they they just flip from one to the other depending how you look at it. Interesting. Fear and anxiety I could use the term fear and anxiety in the same way. If you look at the energy of fear and you watch what happens when you're excited, it's pretty much physically the same mechanism. Fight or flight. You you're like But it's also attractive because exciting energy is is new, it's change. And so some people a lot of inyasa people perhaps that's what they're attracted to. But inside of that there can also, in all sorts of little ways, be that one thing that they're anxious about. Maybe it's bad things, maybe it's a teacher standing over them and they're like, Ugh, you know, it's everyone has a different personality kind of glitch with those kind of things. So consistent sequence. equals anxiety getting less. And that allows just practical ease with you know less likely for having injuries, less less trouble with pre-existing injuries, all that kind of thing. Where that falls down is if I overplay the consistency with you have to do the sequence exactly like this because Either I said so, or it's spiritual, or it's coming from God, or some other nonsense. All of those are mostly nonsense. So where we overplay the hand of here is consistency and it's the only important thing. Well, that starts being, I call this monotheism. It's it's it's a very limited window that we have in terms of okay, I want consistency, and and what positive change happens out of that versus consistency, no change allowed. And those are two very different ideas. speaker-0: Yeah, that is definitely something that I feel like is coming through a lot on your course. And we've been talking about a lot in our afternoon sessions, Matthew, that again, when it comes to self-practice and and sort of developing an intuition of you can't really plan how you're going to show up feeling. And I think like even with the way that you teach and the sequences that you you offer and the space really that you provide, which like you said, I agree, that's what makes somebody stand out as a master ball teacher, is ultimately the space that they give. And the empowerment that they give to a student to ultimately choose themselves rather than impose your own authority on them. it's been coming up a lot in our conversations and that it is it's something that you have to practice as a student is am I going to be consistent today? And is does that mean sticking with some sequence that I'm working on? Or do I follow the nudge or the pull to try something a little bit different? And which one am I which one am I following and trying to be authentic? And truthful and aware of like what you're choosing and why you're choosing it. I think a lot of us are so out of touch with that as students. speaker-1: Or or we're just in a habit of sticking with one you know, because I see this only because I see this a lot with students is some people that just just develop better proficiency with like for example, if I use these two, a more someone who's a little more focused or passionate about doing an Ashtanga yoga practice is going to tend to be someone who likes consistency. And so as a result. They may, it may or may not be true, but they may tend to not listen to well when things need to change. And they're like, no, no, today is my day for intermediate. It's that's what it is. And there's some advantages to that because then you maybe you I I was I was tired and I wow, I really managed that. That's remarkable how much I could do when I thought I couldn't. So there's something useful about that, but there's an aspect of it which means shutting or you know, closing the door, shutting the putting the wall down, putting the foot down. And in a an inability to accept certain kinds of change. But on the other hand, the more vinyasa flow style practitioner is gonna wake up in the morning and go, what do I feel like today? Mm-hmm. It's backbend flow time, you know. And and that can really work. But then often you'll be avoiding again, avoiding the things that you're not proficient with. I'm gonna avoid core strength or arm balancing because it's backbend flow six days a week. You know, so you end up defaulting. defaulting into it's it's just another aspect of the ego. And both of those can I'm not saying they are, but they can be egotistical in the sense of the thing that's riding us is an unconscious mechanism and and we're not practicing awareness of it. And the unconscious mechanism is this is my preference. And my preference, the my in that is is not broad consciousness. It's the the my I want, I want, I want. And and that ru you know, most humans that runs us one way or the other. It's very tricky to step back from it. Yeah. speaker-0: And I think as a practitioner, obviously it it develops the skill to be a teacher, but I think I think it depends on the way you look at it as a teacher. It either makes it more exciting as a teacher or it makes it a little more daunting for you as a teacher to be able to speak to the student in a way that helps them unite, like give them the opposite of what they need, because everybody's going to be different. Like some people need to hear find the soft, other people need to hear find the hard. And it's up to you as the teacher to distinguish and decipher which thing the student needs. speaker-1: All right. And I'll give an example there. So one is to help the student. So hopefully if they're really lost, you can see a little bit of the thing that they're missing. But the other part of that is is just to ask the student to answer that question because as a teacher often I really don't know. The student will say well student will say, Look, what should I do? And I'll I'll answer, I don't know. You just tell me. And they're like, Huh? And then I'm like, Okay, just give me some feedback. All right. How are you sitting right now? And then they'll go, well, this and this. Okay. What do you feel like right now? And they're like, Well, well this and this and okay, you've just answered the question. They're like, yeah, great. And and it's just 'cause it's just and so it's not that I necessarily have the answer 'cause half the time I don't. It's just that I'm I'm asking the question for the student to go, right, well where am I sitting now? yeah, that's what it is. 'Cause I I don't necessarily know. Like the student wakes up and okay, are you how you feeling? You're tired? No, I've got energy. I just don't know what to do. Okay. So you want something a little dynamic. Yeah, yeah, I feel like, but I don't know what to do. And then I just one or two more questions and then I'm like, well, clearly you do know what to what you do. It was just a you know, there's just like a little barrier in between Yeah where I am and what I'm looking at. speaker-0: That's great, Matthew. There were two things in there. I mean, I think a lot of teachers too, when they're like, I need to be a masterful teacher. I want to be a masterful teacher. speaker-1: Just ask questions. Just ask questions. And then you can you can be so clever with getting students to answer the question that you find difficult because you don't have to answer it, just get them to do it. Saves you a lot of work. speaker-0: Yeah, and and don't be don't be afraid to say like I don't know and ultimately it's not about, you know, your your knowledge, but just guiding them to discover their own, which only they can do. That's speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: that's a great speaker-1: I'll give two, I'll give a couple of principles here as I'm thinking of them. one one, and this is a principle in psychotherapy, it's not just yoga, but it's important in both. It goes like this only the student or the client, as we would say in psychotherapy, only the student is the master of their own experience. The teacher is not. And so you have no mastery over. How, when, or why a student experiences anything. You have no knowledge of it even. You are knowledgeable about your experience. The student is knowledgeable about theirs. And a part of your job is to refer to that as a teacher, not to refer egotistically to your butt I find it so annoying and depressing to hear teachers constantly talking about their own stupid story throughout every freaking class. I'm sorry. It's self indulgent. It's like People who write on Facebook and all they can ever do is share their own stories. Like, you know what? I I I know that's what we do on social media, but you know, just for once, stop blabbing about your own sorry life and and ask people about theirs. Be interested in someone else for a change. I mean, seriously. And as a teacher, if all you do is talk about your story, maybe interesting for some students, but at a certain point it's like, Yeah, get people to share their own story. So part of that is to go You are the master of your experience. You know your pain better than I do. You know your your joys and thrills better than I do. You know your proficiencies and imperfections better than I do. And my job is is to get you to expose enough of that so I can see it too. Because half the time I can't. I I I can't I can't s I you know I can't see invisibility. I can't see what you don't I can't hear what you don't say. And so aga and getting someone to say, yeah, I I really do have a lot of back pain. And then I'm like, Okay, have you had that scanned? No. Next week, tomorrow, you're gonna get it scanned. I wanna see the results just because I'm curious. And then so on and so forth. Because so these are all just ideas. So th but I think it's really useful. So again while I'm thinking I know you I know you may have more questions, so but a teacher some years ago asked asked a group of myself and some other students of this of this particular teacher, I and he asked what's one of or if not well he I forget how he phrased it exactly, but it was something like what's the most important skill of a teacher? And we all had answers. It we were all we were all wrong. So it was it was a kind of a trick question. And I'm not gonna ask you because it's you know, if I have a group of students, sometimes I'll ask that question, what's the most important skill of a teacher? So kindness, open heart, and you know, understanding this or that. And so and I liked his answer 'cause it was something that later on I thought, yeah, really smart. So and it goes like this, observation. And it it's not something that's automatic either. We all we all know it. We all we all it is automatic up to a point, but it's a point where our minds or our desire or our training or our habits get in the way of it. And so the training and the habits, they're all hopefully they're useful and they're practical, and we want skills around training and and habits. But the the the primary skill is for you to create a space so that you can observe what's actually happening. Versus getting something else that you want to happen. So you can't guarantee that everyone's gonna like your class. You can't guarantee that everybody's gonna like you. You can't guarantee that a few students will get up in the middle of the class and just walk out. You know, it all all of these terrifying things can happen. And so the more you can observe, the more okay you're gonna get about some of those things. Like, you know, maybe you try and run a retreat somewhere and it fails and you only get one, two students and you have to cancel it. Maybe you try to set up a class in some a second studio somewhere and you try to set it up and it doesn't work and it fails. And it's like I'm not so successful a teacher after all. Like we we we fail at those things all the time. But we also succeed at probably significantly more things than we fail. The more you can observe these things and and in a very clean and kind and New I'm kindness in this sense I mean in a neutral way, just being able to connect and see, observe students how they're operating. You know. In this sense, provide more space than a room actually has. So that you know, you've got students in a room and and and you're giving them space to be themselves. You're not you're not trying to make them be a perfect yogi. You're not trying to fit them into a little box that you think is correct. And so Observation is I think critical for a whole lot of human understanding, but just a a way of perceiving people that I think is much cleaner than than always either being directive or you know just trying to be either get yourself to be better or them to be better. So that observation should be two ways as well, by the way. It's not just about you observing students in in a similar way you want to be able to observe yourself. And so the more you can practice this skill and it's something that you can develop, then yeah, the less trouble you're gonna have with a lot of whatever happens in a yoga class. speaker-0: It's beautiful, Matthew. Thank you for sharing that. And I think I think, like you said, it is kind of one of those things that is obvious, but your training or your your mind kind of gets in the way of you remembering, like almost wearing that as a talisman or keeping it as a touchstone to come back to that that at the end of the day is more importantly your job is to witness and be aware. And then on the flip side, what you're practicing yourself as a teacher, then making sure that that's what you're teaching to. And and I kind of call this the vipassana of asana is whatever sequence you're designing, whatever words you're saying, as long as as long as they are bringing your students back to observation or awareness of breath, and observation or awareness of sensation, then everybody's kind of guaranteed to have a have a good experience. Which that does what you said is eliminates you as being the you as the teacher of being the star of the show or about your story and you're continually guiding people back to themselves through breath and sensation. that it it doesn't matter if your sequence sucks then. It doesn't matter if your jokes are speaker-1: It matters less. speaker-0: yeah. It matter it matters maybe a little bit less. So yeah. Yeah, I I I really appreciate just that. So there's been so many amazing things that you've said. as we kind of close up here, is there any other word of wisdom that you would give to either newer yoga teachers or to other teachers when it comes to sequencing? speaker-1: Yeah, no, nothing really directly comes to mind, perhaps other than what I've already said. I guess for new newer teachers, well I should say something for both, but newer teachers, it really is just about throwing yourself in and giving it a go. And even if one hand's like that and you're jumping forward, just it's okay to do that and make a few mistakes, you know, and just and just step forward. don't hold yourself back too much. Like, you know, just be yourself and sort of jump into it. And it's it's really okay to not have to I don't know, whatever rules you've got in your head about how a yoga teacher is supposed to behave or supposed to be able to teach or whatever proficiencies you're supposed to have with postures and whatnot. yeah, just try not to be too concerned about any of that at the beginning and and whatever you Are aware of or good at or just you know you're working on, just teach that, you know, just teach what's first. for the more experienced students, it's it's almost the opposite is is the the way to get out of a rut is is keep working on and teaching the things that you ha haven't been doing so far. And whatever that may be, it's like then you like I can just list like off the get go four or five things that I haven't taught this week. I I don't ha I don't have to spend a lot of time going, well it's it's like, okay, well, I haven't done much on this, you know, whatever, I I don't want to go over what I've been teaching this week. But but if that makes sense. So I think anyone anyone who's been teaching for a while, the the things that you've been teaching a lot i are obvious. But if you just just it's like a a a light switch, all you have to do is just shine the light over here. And it's like it's totally obvious what I haven't been teaching as well. Now Don't don't just go for the things that you're absolutely clueless about. But you know, you're shining the light here, and now you're shining the light here. And it's like, well, there's a whole bunch of things there. I'm gonna I'm gonna play with practicing and then teaching back. And it should be it should be like a very quick process. It's not it's not something you should be agonizing about as to and then and then you're like a beginner again and stumbling around trying to teach something that you've got. And that's fine. You just just do it in as light a way as you can so you're not hurting anybody. speaker-0: Yeah, great. So then super quick for people who are interested that are in the YT in between container, if they ever want to study with you, how can they find you and what are your courses like in your own words? speaker-1: people can come and do online courses with me. So since COVID I got onto that thing and surprised myself that I actually quite enjoy it. just 'cause it's a wider audience. I get to reach out to people that I would never have contacted. speaker-0: I I took a class with you and it was like eleven PM and I think it was moon. It was like back bending and I was awake all night after that. speaker-1: Yeah, not ideal. But I do do different time zones. So that's one example of of people who have you know either limited time or can't travel so much and so forth. So yeah, I have online classes. I have a website which is yogatemple.com. So people can once they go through a few of the pages, but you can find easily enough my timetable and online classes. And then I have courses here in Bali. Mostly I just do Bali. Every occasionally I'll do outside workshops, but mostly I'm in Bali. I do three or four. two and four week courses here per year. and so usually those are around sort of March, June and August every year, something like that. And people can come for two or four weeks. And then I do a range of different sequencing and Panayama. It's like a retreat. So you're you're learning these things, you know, around two classes a day and just learning to practice and you know put the sequences into personal sort of a metaphor. I I I do use the consistency plus change idea throughout. So you know if people learn moon sequence or sunshine sequence or whatever the sequence is, then you know there's variations and changes within each of those that we'll we'll muck around with different students with that. So I I'm a fan of set sequences which have a lot of open doors. So it means it's set in terms of an idea or a concept. f a formality, but we don't stay with that. So depending on the problem or the interest or whatever it is, then there's all sorts of little doorways that we open with each seating so people get get speaker-0: That's what's really fun about you, Matthew. I'm I'm personally doing the moon sequence and the sunshine sequence. And Matthew will come around and be like, okay, at this moment you could add. I'm like, no, what's he gonna add now? So I like that you use the word doorway because it's it's a a thing that you could take, but you don't have to take. And I think that's a really in in a way to just kind of invite it. speaker-1: Right. And then you know, on any day students are like, I'm really tired, I'm you know, we just had new moon and people are like, my energy was lower so a few students did a super short practice, half an hour, forty minutes and that was so good, that's all I needed today. So also perfectly fine. So it's nice to have some some change and choice in in what we do. So speaker-0: Well, thank you so much, Matthew, for your time and and all the wisdom that you gave to the students here in YT in between. And just for all that you're giving me here on the course. I'm just so grateful to finally meet you and spend some time with you. And it's been just a pleasure already. And I still have about a week. How long how long do we have? A week and a couple of days? speaker-1: Eight days or something, nine days, yeah. speaker-0: Well, thank you so, so much. speaker-1: Okay, you're welcome. namas day, everyone. speaker-0: must stay.