Latest / Ridiculous History / CLASSIC:Hong Xiuquan: The Younger Brother of Jesus Christ Who Led a Bloody Rebellion in China

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CLASSIC:Hong Xiuquan: The Younger Brother of Jesus Christ Who Led a Bloody Rebellion in China · Ridiculous History

0:00
Speaker 1: Fellow ridiculous historians, we are returning to you with a
0:03
Speaker 1: classic episode from twenty nineteen which absolutely rocked our world.
0:08
Speaker 1: It's a story not often told in the West. It's
0:12
Speaker 1: about a guy named Hong chi Huan who calls himself
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Speaker 1: the younger brother of Jesus Christ.
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Speaker 2: I don't remember that chapter that Jesus had a younger brother.
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Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be fun?
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Speaker 1: Well you might not either.
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Speaker 2: That's because it isn't in the Bible. But Hong believed
0:28
Speaker 2: himself to be related to Jesus Christ. He was a
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Speaker 2: school teacher, and he had a bit of a mental
0:37
Speaker 2: health crisis after failing his scholarly exams that seemed to
0:42
Speaker 2: result in a series of visions that showed him his
0:46
Speaker 2: true calling and his destiny.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird because a lot pretty often in history
0:54
Speaker 1: when people have these visions, they never get a vision
0:58
Speaker 1: of them being an unimportant person.
1:01
Speaker 3: Is that weird? Now?
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Speaker 2: Usually a little bit self aggrandizing. It's almost as if
1:05
Speaker 2: the vision was within you.
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Speaker 1: Yes, just so, And our pal Hog doesn't become some
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Speaker 1: itinerant guy just telling people he knows Jesus Christ personally.
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Speaker 1: His visions end up sparking one of the deadliest rebellions
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Speaker 1: in all of Chinese history. A twist ending Let's roll
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Speaker 1: the tape. Ridiculous History is a production of iHeart Radio.
1:34
Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeart Radio. Hi everyone,
2:02
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. In a previous episode, you may
2:07
Speaker 1: have noticed that I took great pride in dropping the
2:13
Speaker 1: C word cult. Cult itself can be a dicey phrase, right,
2:19
Speaker 1: Most people who are participated in a religious organization do
2:24
Speaker 1: not care for their organization to be referred to as
2:27
Speaker 1: a cult.
2:28
Speaker 2: Well, one's one man's religion. It's another man's cult, sure,
2:31
Speaker 2: man or woman or whatever have you. It's a very
2:34
Speaker 2: divisive term because it's thrown around as a term of abuse.
2:37
Speaker 2: But there certainly our criteria when you check the boxes
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Speaker 2: that tend to line up more with cult than religion.
2:44
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, way back in the day, my pal Matt
2:48
Speaker 1: and our mutual pal Matt Frederick, we made a great
2:52
Speaker 1: video about how to tell whether or not you are
2:56
Speaker 1: in a cult. Please do check it out on YouTube
2:58
Speaker 1: or wherever you watch videos. Stuff. They want you to
3:01
Speaker 1: know how to start a cult. I can't remember. And
3:05
Speaker 1: you know, we all like the idea right of starting
3:07
Speaker 1: a cult? Do we well, I just assume you don't
3:11
Speaker 1: like that idea, you know, on my go to I
3:13
Speaker 1: feel like it's a natural tendency. I feel like in
3:16
Speaker 1: another life, I've probably started several cults. But if you
3:20
Speaker 1: think about it, if you take away the glamour, it's
3:22
Speaker 1: a very tedious life. It's a lot of work. Whether
3:26
Speaker 1: you're just a follower of a cult or you're the
3:28
Speaker 1: leader of a cult, you're basically on call all the time.
3:31
Speaker 1: You don't really get vacation. You probably don't make a
3:35
Speaker 1: lot of money. We always hear about these famous violent cults,
3:38
Speaker 1: but what about those cult leaders who are out there,
3:40
Speaker 1: you know, just grind it every day. They got like
3:42
Speaker 1: fifteen people with them. And what about the cult leaders
3:44
Speaker 1: the time forgot ben? What about them? What of them?
3:47
Speaker 1: I am glad you asked nol and we Oh, we've
3:50
Speaker 1: also got to alert our super producer, Casey Pegrim Casey.
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Speaker 2: This is going to be a weird one. I'm absolutely
3:57
Speaker 2: in the cult of Casey.
3:58
Speaker 1: By the way, yeah, yeah, yeah, the coec see takes time.
4:03
Speaker 1: Are you do you subscribe to the newsletter.
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Speaker 2: I subscribe to the newsletter. I get the Spotify playlists.
4:09
Speaker 1: I'm all about it I do. I like to wait
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Speaker 1: for his yearly donation period, because if you put in
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Speaker 1: fifty bucks, you get the tote bag, but if you
4:16
Speaker 1: put in seventy five bucks, you get the tote bag
4:18
Speaker 1: and the water bottle. The CC is like the NPR
4:21
Speaker 1: of cults. It really is, it really is. I appreciate
4:24
Speaker 1: those pledge drives, Casey, And speaking of cult leaders, today's
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Speaker 1: story takes us to China in the early eighteen hundreds.
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Speaker 1: There is a guy named Hong Si Kwan, and we're
4:39
Speaker 1: we're mispronouncing this name, Hong.
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Speaker 2: I'm gonna mispronounce it even worse than you beats. So
4:44
Speaker 2: you're doing a fine job.
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Speaker 1: Oh no, not really. So this this guy, Hong Si
4:51
Speaker 1: Quan's call him Hong x sure yeah, is born on
4:55
Speaker 1: January first, eighteen fourteen. He's in New Year's Baby, and
4:59
Speaker 1: he is the third and youngest son of a poor
5:03
Speaker 1: Hawka family. His story gets propagandized pretty heavily as it
5:10
Speaker 1: goes on. So now his origins are a little bit
5:14
Speaker 1: the sources are a little bit contradictory. Some people say
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Speaker 1: he was poor, some people say his family was well
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Speaker 1: to do. But you know, one man's palace is another
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Speaker 1: man's dumpster. Right, this kind of the idea of success
5:26
Speaker 1: is relative. But let's learn a little bit more about
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Speaker 1: Hong haung x as you call him, Noel. What do
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Speaker 1: we know about this guy?
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Speaker 2: Well, we know that he had the dream in his heart,
5:38
Speaker 2: the twinkle in his eye. He wanted to grow up
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Speaker 2: and be a scholar. In order to do that, it's
5:45
Speaker 2: sort of like studying for the bar. Right to be
5:49
Speaker 2: a scholar in this period in Chinese history, you had
5:52
Speaker 2: to take this test. You had to memorize these Confucian
5:56
Speaker 2: texts and take these things called the Imperial Exams. It
6:00
Speaker 2: was the equivalent of going to college or you know,
6:03
Speaker 2: getting your SATs or whatever. So all of that kind
6:05
Speaker 2: of combined into this life or death test more like
6:08
Speaker 2: the bar because it was like it was such a
6:10
Speaker 2: big deal. You'd study for it so much that if
6:12
Speaker 2: you failed it, it was a really crushing blow. And
6:15
Speaker 2: nobody wants to take the bar twice. Thusly, no one
6:17
Speaker 2: wanted to take the Imperial Exams twice.
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Speaker 1: Unfortunately. Oh by the way, less than one percent.
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Speaker 2: Of the people who took the test pass and Hong
6:26
Speaker 2: was among those that did not.
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Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, the Imperial Exams are a big, big, big deal,
6:35
Speaker 1: and that attrition rate is nasty. It is not something
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Speaker 1: to mess with. Hong, however, does not give up. He
6:43
Speaker 1: decides to will retake the exams. He travels to a
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Speaker 1: city in the south, Guangzhou, and he decides he's going
6:50
Speaker 1: to take the exams again in eighteen thirty six. This
6:54
Speaker 1: city is amazing at this time. It's a port. It's
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Speaker 1: a set of culture for the Qing dynasty. But with
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Speaker 1: all this culture and with all this population and all
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Speaker 1: this trade, there comes a dark side. You see, a
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Speaker 1: lot of the trade that goes through this port city
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Speaker 1: comes from the West, and the West at this time
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Speaker 1: has one big, big product that they are pushing into
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Speaker 1: Chinese markets. That's right.
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Speaker 2: The British were a huge part of this culture, and
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Speaker 2: they were bringing in lots of opium that they were
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Speaker 2: growing in India, where they also held imperial rule essentially,
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Speaker 2: and they were you know, they didn't have they didn't
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Speaker 2: hold sway over China per se, but there was a
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Speaker 2: pretty serious foothold that they had in the Chinese Empire
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Speaker 2: in the Qing dynasty, correct, Ben.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. So the problem here is
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Speaker 1: that the country of China is producing all this really
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Speaker 1: cool stuff that the British forces want tea and t
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Speaker 1: find China. They literally call the porcelain find China and silk,
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Speaker 1: of course, and the British don't really have a lot
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Speaker 1: of stuff that China wants, so there's a trade deficit.
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Speaker 1: They do, however, have that opium growing in India, and
8:16
Speaker 1: they double down on this. They're flooding the markets with
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Speaker 1: opium to the point that it is destabilizing Chinese society.
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Speaker 1: But you see, not every import is a tangible thing.
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Speaker 1: Ideas are just as valuable and indeed just as dangerous
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Speaker 1: as opium, silk, Find China or what have you. So
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Speaker 1: Hong is walking through the streets of this city thinking
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Speaker 1: about his exam when he hears a missionary from the
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Speaker 1: far flung shores of North America proselytizing, which means, you know,
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Speaker 1: attempting to convert people to his religion, to Christianity. And
9:01
Speaker 1: this guy doesn't speak Chinese, he doesn't speak Cantonese nor Mandarin,
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Speaker 1: but he has an interpreter with him. So picture if
9:10
Speaker 1: you will, you're a kid, You're Hong Ectu're walking through
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Speaker 1: these crowded, bustling streets and you see a guy probably
9:16
Speaker 1: standing on an apple box or crate, you know, just
9:21
Speaker 1: yelling out in English, save yourselves, learn the truth, so
9:26
Speaker 1: and so, and then there's an interpreter who has to listen.
9:29
Speaker 1: So there's a little bit of a lag. Sure, And
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Speaker 1: I don't know whether the interpreter is just calmly remarking
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Speaker 1: on the things this guy is yelling about, but I
9:37
Speaker 1: hope he's yelling too at a slight time delay. I
9:40
Speaker 1: too would like to believe that. Ben. So what happens.
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Speaker 1: Hong hears him, right.
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Speaker 2: He hears him, and he doesn't think too much of
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Speaker 2: it at the time, but he at least you know,
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Speaker 2: he's gonna he's not gonna be rude.
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Speaker 1: He takes the pamphlet. He's got it.
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Speaker 2: You gotta take the pamphlet. So he takes the pamphlet,
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Speaker 2: folds it up, saves it for later. And it turns
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Speaker 2: out that it will end up having a massive impact
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Speaker 2: on Hong, but not until after this next phase of
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Speaker 2: the story, where and he fails the exam again and
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Speaker 2: then proceeds to have something of what you might call
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Speaker 2: a psychotic breakdown.
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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, a complete and utter meltdown, nervous breakdown. He
10:14
Speaker 1: fails the exam twice, and then he takes it a
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Speaker 1: third time a year later, and he fails the third time.
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Speaker 1: That's right, and this, yeah, this pushes him to the edge.
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Speaker 1: He goes home. He says, I feel sick, and he
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Speaker 1: lays down and he has a fever dream or a.
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Speaker 2: Vision, a series of visions and feversam and he really
10:40
Speaker 2: seems sick, like he seems physically ill. His complexion is
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Speaker 2: all pallid, he is sweating, he is feverish. His parents
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Speaker 2: are very very concerned about him. So he in his
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Speaker 2: let's some let's walk through this, yeah, yeah, walk through
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Speaker 2: the vision or the hallucinations. Yeah, so he is, it's amazing,
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Speaker 2: It's just amazing. This is like like this should be
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Speaker 2: a movie. So he hallucinates that he takes a trip,
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Speaker 2: a sojourn to some sort of paradise, a heavenly land
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Speaker 2: in the east, and then his father reveals to him
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Speaker 2: that there are demons that are destroying humanity.
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Speaker 1: All right, yeah, I mean I get it, You're on board.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So then of course he has to have
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Speaker 2: a special magical sword. He gets a magical sword that's
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Speaker 2: bestowed upon him by his father, and then with the
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Speaker 2: help of his brother, they fight the demons and what
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Speaker 2: he refers to as the King of Hell.
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Speaker 1: Yes, after the battle, he doesn't wake up. After the battle,
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Speaker 1: he stays in heaven. He gets a wife and they
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Speaker 1: have a child together. Eventually he returns to Earth bearing
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Speaker 1: his new title Heavenly King, Lord of the Kingly Way. Way.
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Speaker 1: His family is not one hundred percent on board with this.
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Speaker 2: Well, no, because from where they stand, he's just been
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Speaker 2: tossing and turning around in bed for days. I mean
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Speaker 2: there's no not exactly a specific timeline, but I can't
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Speaker 2: imagine this happened over a period of time. And he
12:18
Speaker 2: just seems like he's losing it. And he, you know,
12:21
Speaker 2: he goes from being fully asleep to turning around in
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Speaker 2: bed and screaming you know, nonsense syllables, to jerking up
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Speaker 2: right and assuming a fighting stance, and then going back
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Speaker 2: to bed. I mean, just you know, really really not well.
12:36
Speaker 2: And he finally wakes up and he explains to his
12:40
Speaker 2: parents the dream and he had written like this in
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Speaker 2: the form of poetry that he kind of like dream
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Speaker 2: journaled when he woke up. It's pretty impressive.
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Speaker 1: Oh, and he also came back with the name Hong
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Speaker 1: Shi Kwan because his original name was Hong Ho s Yu.
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Speaker 1: But that father figure he meets in the hallucination tells
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Speaker 1: him that his given name violates taboos and has to
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Speaker 1: be changed. So not only is he waking up it's very,
13:05
Speaker 1: very fantastic story, he's also waking up with a different name.
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Speaker 1: Everybody in the village thinks this guy is bonkers. If
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Speaker 1: this guy were a breakfast, he would be nuts and bananas.
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Speaker 1: It's true, is that a breakfast? Well, yeah, you could
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Speaker 1: eat like nuts and badana.
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Speaker 2: People do that all the time, really like together, like
13:24
Speaker 2: mixed up with what with oats?
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Speaker 1: Maybe, sure, oats? Probably yogurt? Okay, people. Yogurt people are crazy, man,
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Speaker 1: They'll put anything in yogurt. Okay.
13:32
Speaker 2: From now on, I think when we say something is insane,
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Speaker 2: we should refer to it as yogurt.
13:38
Speaker 1: You know what, Let's give it a spin, Let's take
13:40
Speaker 1: it around. He would make that. Let's we can make
13:42
Speaker 1: that that catch on it. We might have enemies with
13:44
Speaker 1: big yogurt.
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Speaker 2: But but yeah, so Hong has gone full yogurt and
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Speaker 2: he is looked upon a skance by the people of
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Speaker 2: the village.
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Speaker 1: But he's able, he's able to put it behind him. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: he gets better quickly, he bounces back. I know.
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Speaker 2: He decides to take the exam a fourth time because
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Speaker 2: of what worked out.
14:01
Speaker 1: What happens. He fails, He fails again. He fails a
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Speaker 1: four time again. It's a very very difficult exam. There's
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Speaker 1: a lot of corruption involved. Only one percent of the
14:11
Speaker 1: people who take it will will succeed.
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Speaker 2: The one percent of the one percent of the one
14:16
Speaker 2: percent kind of and seems like a bit of a
14:18
Speaker 2: classist kind of thing, where.
14:20
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean you have to every what isn't classes.
14:23
Speaker 2: Well, that's fair, But what I'm saying is it doesn't
14:26
Speaker 2: seem to be entirely merit based. Maybe like certain people
14:29
Speaker 2: have a leg up in passing the exams.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely so. He is. He's still in his twenties
14:36
Speaker 1: at this time, and he has failed this exam, but
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Speaker 1: thankfully not once, not twice, not three four times, And
14:44
Speaker 1: he still has a certain pamplet.
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Speaker 2: He has that pamphlet. He finds it neatly folded in
14:51
Speaker 2: his pristinely pressed tunic.
14:54
Speaker 1: Right. I don't know about that.
14:56
Speaker 2: I'm editorializing here, but he definitely finds it somewhere and
14:59
Speaker 2: he still to make some connections, doesn't he, because the
15:02
Speaker 2: tract actually portrayed China as this kind of post apocalyptic wasteland,
15:08
Speaker 2: which wasn't terribly far off from the truth. I mean,
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Speaker 2: there was certainly some hyperbole here, but this these opium
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Speaker 2: wars and the opium addictions that ravids China really destabilized
15:18
Speaker 2: the country from eighteen thirty nine to eighteen forty two,
15:21
Speaker 2: and finally it ended with the Treaty of Nanjing, which
15:25
Speaker 2: really gave Britain the upper hands and allowed them to
15:28
Speaker 2: be much more of a colonizer, you know, of China.
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Speaker 1: Right right, absolutely, this is ultimately the reason that so
15:37
Speaker 1: many Christian missionaries were able to make it into the
15:40
Speaker 1: country and stay there. As Hang is reading this pamphlet,
15:51
Speaker 1: he's noticing a stunning similarity between the story of Christianity
15:58
Speaker 1: and his personal vision, the one he had thought and
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Speaker 1: he had gotten over. He encounters the words of Jesus
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Speaker 1: Christ and he becomes convinced. Hong becomes convinced that that
16:14
Speaker 1: father figure in his series of visions was the Christian
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Speaker 1: God like the God of Abraham, and that the older Brother,
16:23
Speaker 1: because remember you mentioned that older brother, and all the
16:25
Speaker 1: older Brother was Jesus Christ himself, and the quote King
16:29
Speaker 1: of Hell was the serpent in the Garden of Eden,
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Speaker 1: and Hong is putting everything together like the very end
16:38
Speaker 1: of Usual Suspects when spoiler alert three to one, when
16:43
Speaker 1: the investigator starts looking at the bulletin board and notices
16:47
Speaker 1: that Kaisers Jose has just been making up stories based
16:51
Speaker 1: on what he reads around the room. Bro, I did
16:54
Speaker 1: spoiler countdown and plus its way past the statue, you think, so, yeah, yes,
16:58
Speaker 1: I mean to scold you. I mean it's fine. So also,
17:02
Speaker 1: where does spoilers stop? Man? Is it a spoiler to
17:05
Speaker 1: say that Abe Lincoln passes away or that the Titanic sinks?
17:09
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, we're gonna get some angry emails about
17:13
Speaker 2: that one because I didn't spoiler alert it.
17:15
Speaker 1: And it is a movie. It is, in fact a movie,
17:17
Speaker 1: it's true. So Halling is having this usual Suspect moment
17:22
Speaker 1: as he's reading through this pamphlet, and he's like, wait,
17:25
Speaker 1: the father in my dream is God the older brother
17:28
Speaker 1: in my dream? That's Jesus, the King of Hell? Is
17:31
Speaker 1: this serpent from this story? Holy smoked? Put two and
17:36
Speaker 1: two together. I am the son of God.
17:39
Speaker 2: It's like Darren Aronofsky trying to describe the plot of
17:42
Speaker 2: one of his movies.
17:43
Speaker 1: Right, right, So he doesn't take this revelation as a
17:48
Speaker 1: personal thing, he doesn't hold it close to his heart
17:50
Speaker 1: and use it as a way to keep his divine
17:52
Speaker 1: chin up. Instead, he tells his relatives about his dream,
17:57
Speaker 1: and his message begins to spread. He gets followers. He
18:02
Speaker 1: must have been very persuasive.
18:04
Speaker 2: Well, he clearly was tenacious. He kept taking you know,
18:08
Speaker 2: he let us, like a little little bit psychotic break
18:11
Speaker 2: stop him from trying to take those exams. So he
18:14
Speaker 2: clearly had drive. And yeah, he had to have been
18:17
Speaker 2: very charismatic. And his message started spreading like wildfire.
18:23
Speaker 1: Cl style, right right. He gathers followers. They go on
18:30
Speaker 1: the road to evangelize. Right. They're selling ink and brushes
18:35
Speaker 1: to fund their travels, and Hong begins writing his own
18:38
Speaker 1: religious works. He writes exportations to worship the One True God,
18:43
Speaker 1: and this helps him win more converts. He goes back
18:46
Speaker 1: home to work on more religious writing, but his disciples
18:51
Speaker 1: continue to travel and they form a group known as
18:54
Speaker 1: the God Worshiping Society. There's an interesting sociological aspect here
18:59
Speaker 1: because a lot of his original followers are Hakka people,
19:05
Speaker 1: the ethnic group Hakka, just like he is, and they
19:09
Speaker 1: have a relatively lower position in Chinese society. So this
19:14
Speaker 1: is a message that paints a picture of an alternate
19:19
Speaker 1: way to live, a world in which you do not
19:22
Speaker 1: have to be on the bottom just because of your ethnicity.
19:26
Speaker 2: Which is interesting because sort of in the same way
19:28
Speaker 2: that el Ron Hubbard found that a religion based on
19:30
Speaker 2: constantly being rejected by science fiction, you know, publishers and
19:35
Speaker 2: things like that, a spoiler alert out of well that's fair,
19:38
Speaker 2: but out of kind of this bitterness and this it
19:41
Speaker 2: shaped his whole worldview, and Hang was very similar. He
19:45
Speaker 2: rejected the Confucianist family ideals and the idea of having
19:50
Speaker 2: to be in that one percent of the one percent
19:52
Speaker 2: of society and pass those tests, and he built an
19:55
Speaker 2: entirely new philosophy that was it wasn't Chrischristianity exactly. It
20:01
Speaker 2: was sort of a twist on Christianity, right, yeah, yeah.
20:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you know, if you think about it, it's
20:08
Speaker 1: a proto version of communism. The stresses sharing property. He
20:16
Speaker 1: has religious ideas and laws based on the Ten Commandments
20:19
Speaker 1: of Christianity. Importantly, he promises free land to all of
20:25
Speaker 1: his followers really, and that's when thousands and thousands more
20:29
Speaker 1: people start joining up with Hong and the god worshiping society.
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Speaker 2: And they really start to openly reject the Chin norms
20:42
Speaker 2: of that time. They chop off their braids. They have
20:46
Speaker 2: this hairstyle called a queue where you've probably seen it
20:48
Speaker 2: in films, where their head is shaved, except they have
20:52
Speaker 2: like one big long ponytail it's in the back. They
20:55
Speaker 2: cut those off. They start wearing these red turbans as
21:00
Speaker 2: a symbol of their undying allegiance to Hong, and he
21:05
Speaker 2: even starts preaching this notion that the Manchu were the
21:10
Speaker 2: very demons that he fought in his battle with the
21:13
Speaker 2: King of Hell.
21:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes, so this is during the Qing dynasty, right,
21:18
Speaker 1: and the Qing dynasty was founded by the Manchu people,
21:24
Speaker 1: and they are still regarded as foreigners at this time,
21:26
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, and the Hakka, with
21:29
Speaker 1: valid reason, don't care very much for the Manchu.
21:33
Speaker 2: Do we mention that the Hakka were kind of already
21:35
Speaker 2: a bit of a disenfranchised community. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
21:37
Speaker 2: that's that's key because he was able to capitalize on
21:41
Speaker 2: those feelings of rejection and isolation and not being part
21:45
Speaker 2: of the same cast system that he was rejected from.
21:48
Speaker 1: And then when he has the revelation that the demons
21:53
Speaker 1: in his vision are the Manchu, you know, he begins,
21:57
Speaker 1: as you said, pushing people to violence. And this marks
22:02
Speaker 1: the beginning of one of the bloodiest civil wars in
22:06
Speaker 1: Chinese history. Within two years, Hong and the God worshiping
22:11
Speaker 1: society have captured the city of Nanjing. There is a
22:15
Speaker 1: rebellion taking place, folks. Hundreds of thousands of people are
22:21
Speaker 1: overthrowing the social status quo.
22:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's the thing too. Hong really starts doubling down
22:29
Speaker 2: with his speaking with God kind of angle where he
22:36
Speaker 2: believes that he has been sent by God as the
22:40
Speaker 2: son of God because he is a son of God.
22:42
Speaker 2: He's not Jesus, he's his other son. He's the younger
22:44
Speaker 2: He's the younger brother of Jesus. And he is here
22:48
Speaker 2: to change the very course and nature of Chinese society
22:55
Speaker 2: based on the word of God and what he wants.
22:57
Speaker 2: So all of in his society, all of his little
23:01
Speaker 2: kind of sub offshoot society, all of the beliefs of
23:04
Speaker 2: the Chinese, all of the Confucian techts, are burned. All
23:08
Speaker 2: those beliefs are scattered and rejected. Got rid of every
23:13
Speaker 2: single idol or effigy or you know, any anything that
23:17
Speaker 2: represented the old way right, and even the outlawed opium
23:23
Speaker 2: because that had been a problem.
23:24
Speaker 1: They didn't move one.
23:25
Speaker 2: That was probably the one one of his good moves.
23:28
Speaker 2: And heavily segregated men and women.
23:33
Speaker 1: Officially officially, but not for him, No, not for him.
23:36
Speaker 1: He had something of a harem in his in his abode.
23:40
Speaker 1: Very very common with cult leaders, you know what I mean.
23:43
Speaker 1: From l Ron Hubbard in the Sea Org to David Koresh.
23:49
Speaker 1: Usually cult leaders have a do as I say, not
23:52
Speaker 1: as I do sort of approach to their beliefs and laws.
23:56
Speaker 1: Does he also change the calendar? He does? He changes
24:01
Speaker 1: the calendar. Dude, that's such a power move. I love
24:04
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, it's like, all right, I'm in charge. Now,
24:09
Speaker 1: April is done. Now we're calling it. Uh hey, Casey.
24:15
Speaker 3: I knew you were gonna call me. Then I have nothing.
24:17
Speaker 3: I have nothing to offer on this.
24:20
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, Okay, you'd rather be on the case than
24:24
Speaker 1: on the spot. Ye okay, okay. Uh so we'll say
24:28
Speaker 1: instead of instead of April we're gonna call it Lowell, right, sure,
24:32
Speaker 1: the month of Lowell.
24:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, or how about grapril Yeah, grapril apris I like that.
24:38
Speaker 1: I like that, so uh okay, yeah. I don't mean
24:41
Speaker 1: to also casey on the case thank you. I don't
24:45
Speaker 1: mean to diminish the suffering that Hang is becoming responsible for.
24:52
Speaker 1: What we see happening now is that the Qing dynasty
24:57
Speaker 1: notices that society is quickly crumbly.
25:02
Speaker 2: Dude in the city of Nanjang, he has amassed an army,
25:07
Speaker 2: and in addition to all of his followers, but a
25:09
Speaker 2: real legitimate army that can expand this kingdom that he's
25:14
Speaker 2: creating all over southern China and ends up with more
25:18
Speaker 2: than thirty million people living inside his little sub kingdom
25:23
Speaker 2: called the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, which is what they referred
25:27
Speaker 2: to their new territory as. And this is a real
25:31
Speaker 2: threat to.
25:32
Speaker 1: The powers that be. I mean, this is huge and
25:34
Speaker 1: they will not let this stand right absolutely. We should
25:39
Speaker 1: also mention though he did segregate the sexes for his followers,
25:44
Speaker 1: he took some steps to try to make women more
25:47
Speaker 1: socially equal to men, so it wasn't all terrible stuff.
25:52
Speaker 1: But yes, war was very much on the horizon. The
25:57
Speaker 1: Qing emperor says, I have to raise troops. This may
26:01
Speaker 1: become an existential conflict, and it does. It becomes one
26:05
Speaker 1: of the most deadly conflicts in history. So by eighteen
26:09
Speaker 1: sixty Hong's people, that Taiping were at the height of
26:13
Speaker 1: their power. They were smashing Qing armies that were besieging Nanjing,
26:18
Speaker 1: and they were capturing other southern cities Honju Suzu. In
26:23
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty one, the same year that the US Civil
26:27
Speaker 1: War starts, the Taiping attacked Shanghai. But Shanghai has been
26:32
Speaker 1: this international hub, right is where the Western powers go
26:37
Speaker 1: and they send their boats and they trade their stuff.
26:40
Speaker 1: And that means that the British and French empires are
26:43
Speaker 1: not happy to see this fall to a cult movement,
26:48
Speaker 1: and the Europeans began to bring in their own forces
26:52
Speaker 1: to protect the city.
26:54
Speaker 2: Got a question for you, man, that distinction between religion
26:57
Speaker 2: and cult or movement and cults.
26:59
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
27:00
Speaker 2: I think thirty million. It sort of kicks it out
27:03
Speaker 2: of cult territory and it becomes more like.
27:05
Speaker 1: A new norm.
27:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, but again we're talking population wise in this in
27:10
Speaker 2: the country.
27:11
Speaker 1: Just just for a rough ballpark perspective. Calculations estimates put
27:17
Speaker 1: the population of China or the Ching Empire at this
27:21
Speaker 1: time around just under three hundred million.
27:24
Speaker 2: Got it, so no, no small potatoes, thirty million, but
27:30
Speaker 2: still certainly not taking hold in a widespread way.
27:34
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, that's thirty million, lot.
27:37
Speaker 2: Oh, it's definitely dangerous and they're all hold up, or
27:40
Speaker 2: a bunch of them are hold up in this one
27:42
Speaker 2: area and are kicking ass.
27:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the European troops arrive to.
27:49
Speaker 2: Help out their I don't know, buddies, the relationship is
27:51
Speaker 2: probably a little strange, but it's more to defend their port, right.
27:54
Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, the opium must flown, you know. The Europeans
28:03
Speaker 1: come with the latest word, the bleeding edge of military technology,
28:09
Speaker 1: and they use cannon fire to just tear through the
28:14
Speaker 1: Typing rebels. The Qing launches a major counter attack and
28:20
Speaker 1: this occurs at the same time. This shatters the Typing
28:24
Speaker 1: army and they retreat from the city. They are forced
28:28
Speaker 1: onto the defensive, and now the Qing dynasty is receiving
28:32
Speaker 1: support from the West. They begin pushing the borders of
28:36
Speaker 1: the Heavenly Kingdom back to Nanjing and they're fighting. Think
28:42
Speaker 1: of it this way. They're fighting what's called a total
28:45
Speaker 1: war in one of the most densely populated areas of
28:49
Speaker 1: the planet. Around this time. The country of China alone
28:53
Speaker 1: is like thirty percent of the world's population. It's a
28:57
Speaker 1: crowded place, and a total war means that everything is
29:03
Speaker 1: up for grabs, and everything that can be destroyed probably will.
29:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's no real rules of engagement or anything
29:09
Speaker 2: like that. I mean, civilians are at risk, utterly at risk,
29:14
Speaker 2: not just being in harm's way, but resources plundering of
29:19
Speaker 2: villages from the opposition. When they sack a town or whatever,
29:22
Speaker 2: they just take what they want and food becomes scarce.
29:26
Speaker 2: People actually begin to starve to death in the streets.
29:29
Speaker 2: So I think we're talking millions of people that died brutally.
29:35
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, the violence combined with the famine led
29:38
Speaker 1: to millions of deaths. If this were a film, let's
29:42
Speaker 1: cut to Hong Hong is becoming increasingly yogurt. He has
29:51
Speaker 1: withdrawn from running his kingdom during the day to day affairs,
29:56
Speaker 1: directing the armies, rallying the troops. Instead, he hanged out
30:00
Speaker 1: in his palace with his harem, with his concubines. His
30:05
Speaker 1: generals begin to fill the vacuum of power, and this
30:10
Speaker 1: leads to a lot of internal conflict and fracturing of
30:15
Speaker 1: the kingdom. Hong begins to you know, suspect members of
30:22
Speaker 1: his inner circle of being traders, and he has very
30:25
Speaker 1: valid reasons for this. By eighteen sixty four, the Qing
30:29
Speaker 1: armies are at the gates of the city and Hong's general,
30:32
Speaker 1: a guy named Lee Sucheng, demands that Hong gtfo right,
30:39
Speaker 1: get get out of the city.
30:40
Speaker 2: And now they are who they've been, you know, forced
30:43
Speaker 2: into retreat and they're holed up behind walls. They've run
30:47
Speaker 2: a food as well. So what does Hong do? He says, Uh,
30:51
Speaker 2: We're just gonna drink tears from heaven, you know, eat
30:54
Speaker 2: mana from heaven?
30:55
Speaker 1: What mana like?
30:55
Speaker 2: That's like magical energy juice like from the Final Fantasy Games,
30:59
Speaker 2: I think, But no, he says, And what he was
31:02
Speaker 2: referring to were like he basically said that God will
31:06
Speaker 2: nourish us with whatever we put into our bodies. This
31:08
Speaker 2: is so crazy, it's so crazy, it almost seems made up,
31:11
Speaker 2: but it's the crazy at So he plucks this.
31:13
Speaker 1: What does he do?
31:14
Speaker 2: He plucks a weed from the ground and eats it
31:17
Speaker 2: as a sign they like, see, I'm on board with you,
31:19
Speaker 2: you know, like I'm just like you guys. And it's
31:22
Speaker 2: turns out to be deadly poison and he dies.
31:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeap, just on a fluke totally, you know. Oh
31:32
Speaker 1: good God.
31:33
Speaker 2: And then as teenage son kind of steps in and
31:34
Speaker 2: replaces him, but it's too late that the chain are
31:37
Speaker 2: at the gates. Like we said, they eventually kick down
31:40
Speaker 2: the doors. Blood bath ensues night Night Kingdom of Heaven.
31:46
Speaker 1: And the typing rebellion is put down. Estimates very widely,
31:51
Speaker 1: depending on which historical sources you encounter. You will see
31:54
Speaker 1: the estimate of the death toll here ringing in it
31:58
Speaker 1: anywhere between twenty two seventy million people. That makes it
32:02
Speaker 1: one of the deadliest conflicts in human history, and it
32:07
Speaker 1: shaped China and therefore the world in ways that carry
32:11
Speaker 1: over even today in twenty nineteen, all because one guy
32:18
Speaker 1: had a vision. You know, what if he have passed
32:22
Speaker 1: his exams? You always have to wonder. It's kind of
32:24
Speaker 1: like what if Hitler got accepted into art school. Yeah,
32:26
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, that's true.
32:28
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's with the repeated rejection that
32:30
Speaker 2: really caused him to break. But you gotta wonder too,
32:33
Speaker 2: something was off in this guy, So he would have
32:35
Speaker 2: done some weird stuff in either way.
32:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to wonder about the country as well.
32:40
Speaker 1: If not him, would some other kind of event have occurred,
32:45
Speaker 1: you know what I mean.
32:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true because the history of China is largely
32:48
Speaker 2: a series of peasant uprisings, as of the case for
32:52
Speaker 2: many histories, like the French Revolution, the American earlier. It's
32:55
Speaker 2: all about rising up against the oppressor, perceived or otherwise.
33:00
Speaker 2: And the dynasty system was so entrenched culturally that it
33:05
Speaker 2: was immovable, and so it makes sense that, Like, but
33:08
Speaker 2: what's so funny, Ben, though, is what's happening is you replace,
33:12
Speaker 2: you knock down a dynasty, and then you replace it
33:14
Speaker 2: with your own dynasty, and you become the same thing
33:16
Speaker 2: that you hated and we're fighting against in the first place. Absolutely,
33:19
Speaker 2: it happens every time. Maybe one time it'll be different.
33:24
Speaker 2: Probably not, Okay, probably now look forward to it. I'm
33:26
Speaker 2: holding my breath. So history tells us that the world
33:31
Speaker 2: is rife, The world is overflowing with would be messiahs.
33:37
Speaker 2: We are lousy with people who suspect that they have
33:41
Speaker 2: divine right to one thing or another, and the modern
33:46
Speaker 2: age is no different. It's easy for us to say, wow,
33:49
Speaker 2: that sounds crazy, what the heck was going on in
33:52
Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds, But you have to realize in twenty nineteen,
33:55
Speaker 2: there are plenty of groups in the United States, in
33:59
Speaker 2: your home country and your neck of the global woods.
34:02
Speaker 2: I guarantee you there is someone right now who believes
34:05
Speaker 2: that they are either God or the avatar of God,
34:09
Speaker 2: or the younger brother of a divine figure. Yeah, first
34:15
Speaker 2: cousin whatever, Sure, Yeah, why not, man, somebody's got to
34:19
Speaker 2: be more power to you. Just trying not to, you know,
34:23
Speaker 2: foment any bloody uprisings.
34:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, do your best, do your best, do your best,
34:28
Speaker 1: be a good citizen. This was such a crazy story.
34:32
Speaker 1: It's a story that a lot of Westerners are not
34:34
Speaker 1: familiar with it.
34:35
Speaker 2: And how insane is it that a story involving the
34:38
Speaker 2: death of twenty to seventy million human beings that took
34:42
Speaker 2: place over fifteen years at the hands of a psychotic
34:46
Speaker 2: Christian death cult leader not really a death call, but certainly,
34:49
Speaker 2: I mean, I stand, we stand by the whole cult thing.
34:52
Speaker 2: How crazy is that we don't know about that. They
34:54
Speaker 2: don't teach that in history class.
34:56
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's it's interesting. It sounds weird because
34:59
Speaker 1: we do host the history show, but a lot of
35:02
Speaker 1: stuff happened. Yeah, I don't know, Casey. I'm not going
35:05
Speaker 1: to put you out in spy here. I just want
35:06
Speaker 1: to know. Had you ever heard of this story?
35:08
Speaker 3: No, this is like all completely new to me in
35:10
Speaker 3: my mind. Is thoroughly blown.
35:11
Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, yeah, bonkers? And how has there not been
35:14
Speaker 2: a film of this as well? Seems very good film fodder.
35:17
Speaker 3: When you Yeah, when you first mentioned it, I was
35:19
Speaker 3: thinking of Scorsese's Silence, which is also concerns Christianity in Japan.
35:24
Speaker 3: That's right, and it's kind of somebody also having maybe
35:29
Speaker 3: a little bit of a savior complex or something. But
35:32
Speaker 3: a different era, different country, different culture, very different. But
35:35
Speaker 3: you know it kind of brought that to mind.
35:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, very much. So well, I don't know.
35:39
Speaker 2: I think I think the story speaks for itself. I
35:42
Speaker 2: think we've said it all, so I think it's time
35:44
Speaker 2: to wrap it up.
35:45
Speaker 1: Man, what do you say? I never want a cult
35:47
Speaker 1: story to end, but yeah, I guess I guess I
35:50
Speaker 1: got it.
35:51
Speaker 2: All good cult things must come to an.
35:53
Speaker 1: Appan I know, I know, and you know when you've
35:56
Speaker 1: started as many as I have, eventually you wanted.
35:59
Speaker 2: To feel I said that was in another life.
36:02
Speaker 1: Totally so. Thanks to Christopher Hasiotis, Thanks to our super
36:06
Speaker 1: producer Casey Pegram.
36:07
Speaker 2: Thanks to research associate and pal Gabe Lucier. Thanks to
36:11
Speaker 2: Alex Williams, who composed.
36:12
Speaker 1: Our Thanks to you, Noel. Thanks to you listeners for
36:17
Speaker 1: giving this episode a spin. If the spirit so moves you,
36:21
Speaker 1: why not drop by your podcast platform of choice and
36:25
Speaker 1: toss us a rating or review. Yeah, we'd really appreciate it.
36:28
Speaker 2: You can also join us on our Facebook fan page
36:31
Speaker 2: or community page whatever you want to call it, which
36:33
Speaker 2: is ridiculous historians. We are on the usual platforms, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram.
36:38
Speaker 2: You can also follow me personally on Instagram at Embryonic Insider.
36:42
Speaker 1: And you can find me on Instagram as well. I
36:46
Speaker 1: am at ben Bowlin. So let us let us know
36:50
Speaker 1: about the local movements, communes, or dare we say, cults
36:56
Speaker 1: in your neck of the global woods. Do you think
37:00
Speaker 1: these groups are innocuous? Do you think they are malevolent?
37:04
Speaker 1: If so, why or why not? And I'm especially interested
37:08
Speaker 1: to hear stories of local cults that most people outside
37:13
Speaker 1: of the area don't know about. Yeah, like Zendig Farms. Yeah, hey, yeah,
37:18
Speaker 1: Zendig Farms. There are a ton of Florida just to
37:21
Speaker 1: the south of us, very strange ones too, But yeah,
37:25
Speaker 1: let us know. We'll see you next time, folks.
37:34
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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
37:41
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.