Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / “American Nightmare": The Answers You’ve Been Waiting For That Netflix Didn’t Address.

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“American Nightmare": The Answers You’ve Been Waiting For That Netflix Didn’t Address. · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

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Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. It was a
0:59
Speaker 1: case that gripped the Bay Area a decade ago, and
1:02
Speaker 1: now the most unbelievable story behind the kidnapping of Denise
1:06
Speaker 1: Huskins has been turned into a new Netflix three-part docuseries.
1:10
Speaker 1: American Nightmare chronicles what happened after Denise's boyfriend called police
1:15
Speaker 1: in March of 2015, saying an intruder wearing a wetsuit
1:19
Speaker 1: broke into his Vallejo home, tied him up, drugged him,
1:22
Speaker 1: and abducted Huskins. From the start, police were skeptical of
1:26
Speaker 1: Aaron Quinn's story and pressured him to confess to killing
1:29
Speaker 1: his girlfriend. But then suddenly, Denise turned up alive, seemingly unharmed,
1:34
Speaker 1: but described being held captive and raped. Investigators were still
1:38
Speaker 1: suspicious of the couple and in an astonishing twist, publicly
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Speaker 1: accused them of carrying out a hoax. Huskins and Quinn
1:45
Speaker 1: were treated as criminal suspects while the real kidnapper would
1:48
Speaker 1: emerge in the strangest of ways soon after. With me
1:51
Speaker 1: today is journalist Henry Lee, who is featured in this docuseries.
1:55
Speaker 1: He covered the case extensively, and as you know from
1:57
Speaker 1: the doc, was brought into the folds of the case,
2:00
Speaker 1: much to his own surprise.
2:01
Speaker 2: Spoiler alert, guys.
2:03
Speaker 1: Go watch the series, then listen to this podcast. Once
2:06
Speaker 1: you see it, you'll realize there are many unanswered questions,
2:09
Speaker 1: and Henry helps us break down all of them. Henry,
2:46
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me today on Misunderstood.
2:49
Speaker 3: Glad to be here, Rachel. Thank you.
2:51
Speaker 1: Okay, so everyone is talking about this docu-series. People cannot
2:55
Speaker 1: get enough of it. And obviously when people have seen it,
2:59
Speaker 1: they are just blown away. People cannot get over the anger,
3:03
Speaker 1: the anxiety they went through. There are so many questions
3:07
Speaker 1: to be answered. So I'm so happy that you're here
3:09
Speaker 1: because you are the perfect person. to answer all of them.
3:13
Speaker 1: I want to get into first, just let's like succinctly
3:16
Speaker 1: talk about what the case was and no one better
3:19
Speaker 1: again than you to kind of wrap this all up
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Speaker 1: in a bow.
3:23
Speaker 3: There was a man named Aaron Quinn in Vallejo, California,
3:25
Speaker 3: who was invaded. His girlfriend, Denise Huskins, was with him.
3:31
Speaker 3: And essentially they believe that a group of guys came
3:35
Speaker 3: in wetsuits and and told them that they're not here
3:39
Speaker 3: to rob them, but they covered their eyes with goggles,
3:43
Speaker 3: put music through headphones, put red tape all over it.
3:46
Speaker 3: They said they have cameras all over this house and
3:49
Speaker 3: said eventually Denise was kidnapped. And Aaron had a quandary.
3:54
Speaker 3: Do you call 911 immediately like he was told not
3:57
Speaker 3: to do? Or do you listen to this stranger and say, okay,
4:03
Speaker 3: I'm not going to call 911. I'm tied up. He
4:05
Speaker 3: got zip ties. He waited a number of hours before
4:08
Speaker 3: calling the police, and it went downhill from there because
4:11
Speaker 3: all the details were so far-fetched that the police had
4:14
Speaker 3: a big problem with his story, that he made it
4:19
Speaker 3: all up. And essentially, she was later released near her
4:24
Speaker 3: parents' home 400 miles away, and that added to the
4:28
Speaker 3: suspicion that the police had about the couple. They initially
4:31
Speaker 3: accused Aaron of murdering her, and then when she showed
4:34
Speaker 3: up alive, They accused this couple of making it all up,
4:37
Speaker 3: and it was just completely bizarre, far-fetched, and the public
4:42
Speaker 3: was just on this roller coaster with the police. They
4:45
Speaker 3: didn't know what to believe, and essentially the couple said
4:48
Speaker 3: that they were accused, or rather the police accused the
4:51
Speaker 3: couple of making it all up, and that they were
4:54
Speaker 3: out there for publicity, that it just didn't happen, and
4:58
Speaker 3: so they were branded liars on national TV.
5:01
Speaker 1: Okay, that is a great rendition of what happened. All right,
5:04
Speaker 1: so the documentary starts with this 911 call, which I
5:09
Speaker 1: will admit, sounds suspicious he's very calm he doesn't seem
5:13
Speaker 1: that upset that his girlfriend has been taken and the
5:15
Speaker 1: things he's saying um seems you know bizarre to say
5:20
Speaker 1: the least and even the 911 dispatcher seems um you
5:24
Speaker 1: know like she doesn't really believe what he's saying and
5:28
Speaker 1: and she doesn't seem you know so um you know
5:31
Speaker 1: uh She's not making an effort to make him feel
5:34
Speaker 1: like she has any empathy in the call, that's for sure.
5:37
Speaker 1: So I want to know, when was this case first
5:40
Speaker 1: brought to the public's attention? When were you starting to
5:43
Speaker 1: hear rumblings of it? When did you start to report
5:45
Speaker 1: on it? And explain to people what your job was
5:48
Speaker 1: at the time.
5:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was a reporter at the San Francisco Chronicle,
5:51
Speaker 3: and I had the early morning shift started at home,
5:53
Speaker 3: and I was probably the first reporter to put a
5:58
Speaker 3: story online saying, hey, last night, a woman named Denise Huskins,
6:02
Speaker 3: here's her picture. She was kidnapped. The police are looking
6:05
Speaker 3: for her. They don't know where she is. And so
6:06
Speaker 3: I think from there, it caught the attention of the
6:10
Speaker 3: kidnapper or kidnappers because they realized, hey, I'm awake. I'm online.
6:16
Speaker 3: And they said, yeah, let's keep this guy in mind.
6:20
Speaker 3: So I immediately jumped in the story and went to
6:23
Speaker 3: the first police news conference at Vallejo Police Headquarters that
6:26
Speaker 3: morning where the police said that this is a kidnapping.
6:30
Speaker 3: We don't know where she is or is reported as
6:32
Speaker 3: a kidnapping. And we just need to find her. Right.
6:36
Speaker 1: So when when did it become national news? Like at
6:40
Speaker 1: this moment, that second, that first day, was it just
6:43
Speaker 1: local news?
6:45
Speaker 3: I think it was just local. But then later that day,
6:49
Speaker 3: if I recall correctly, as far as the timing, it
6:52
Speaker 3: really went haywire because we reported that the Chronicle, essentially me,
6:58
Speaker 3: I got an email from someone purportedly being the kidnapper
7:04
Speaker 3: or kidnappers and had an audio file, what we call
7:07
Speaker 3: proof of life, because on this audio file is a
7:11
Speaker 3: woman's voice and she's saying, I'm Denise Huskins. I was kidnapped.
7:15
Speaker 3: Other than that, I'm fine. It goes on to say
7:19
Speaker 3: my first concert was Blink-182, and then she references a
7:23
Speaker 3: deadly plane crash in the Alps, which just really happens.
7:26
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, this has got to be a joke.
7:29
Speaker 3: I'm literally standing in the neighborhood of Aaron and Denise's
7:33
Speaker 3: house in Vallejo. I'm looking around thinking, okay, this has
7:36
Speaker 3: got to be some other reporter who's pranking me. Why
7:40
Speaker 3: would I get a kidnapped victim's Audio file sounds like her,
7:46
Speaker 3: but eventually we knew that we had to send it
7:48
Speaker 3: to the police. And from there, it probably skyrocketed because
7:52
Speaker 3: it was her. It was her voice. It was later authenticated,
7:56
Speaker 3: although we didn't know it at the time, authenticated by Aaron,
7:59
Speaker 3: Denise's father and others that this was her.
8:02
Speaker 1: So in the meantime, behind the scenes, did you know
8:05
Speaker 1: that police were interrogating Aaron at this point, basically had
8:09
Speaker 1: confirmation bias and believed that he was, he had done
8:12
Speaker 1: something to her, may have killed her, whatever it was,
8:15
Speaker 1: but they were accusing him of a crime.
8:18
Speaker 3: We didn't have that specifically out there that he was
8:21
Speaker 3: being interrogated. We did know that he was being questioned
8:25
Speaker 3: and that's natural, right? Anytime a woman is kidnapped or
8:29
Speaker 3: may have fallen victim to foul play, suspicion naturally falls
8:32
Speaker 3: on the boyfriend or the husband. And that's a logical
8:36
Speaker 3: step that we didn't know how illogical it later came
8:41
Speaker 3: to be. Right.
8:43
Speaker 1: And it ended up being that he was being interrogated
8:45
Speaker 1: for about 18 hours. And something that I came to
8:48
Speaker 1: find out while doing research on this story, that detectives,
8:52
Speaker 1: cops can lie to someone that they are interrogating to
8:56
Speaker 1: get a confession.
8:58
Speaker 2: That seems incredible to me. Is that still legal? Explain that.
9:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is legal here in the U.S. The cops
9:05
Speaker 3: can lie. They can claim that they found blood or
9:08
Speaker 3: that they have an eyewitness. or that you lied and
9:11
Speaker 3: that a lie detector test shows that you lied. All
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Speaker 3: of that happened essentially with Aaron. They said, you know,
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Speaker 3: we're not looking for a dead Denise. We're looking for,
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Speaker 3: or rather, we're not looking for an alive Denise. We're
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Speaker 3: looking for a dead Denise. There's blood in your house.
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Speaker 3: We know you did something. And just to put the
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Speaker 3: pressure on someone, and in a real-life scenario, if a
9:33
Speaker 3: person is truly guilty, that might pressure him or her
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Speaker 3: into confessing, and they can use that confession against them
9:40
Speaker 3: in a court of law.
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Speaker 1: So it's so interesting because I feel like we've seen
9:44
Speaker 1: this in other cases. I mean, isn't this what like
9:47
Speaker 1: to catch.
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Speaker 2: A murderer was all about?
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Speaker 1: We see that there was that kind of coercion of,
9:51
Speaker 1: you know, making this poor young kid admit to something. Also,
9:56
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, I had a guy on
9:57
Speaker 1: my show recently, his name is Daniel Vallejas. And he
10:00
Speaker 1: was in prison for 20 years. Finally, he was exonerated
10:05
Speaker 1: and he had given a confession under, you know, such.
10:09
Speaker 1: um you know pressure and after being in there for
10:12
Speaker 1: 20 hours he finds.
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Speaker 2: Admitted he did it.
10:48
Speaker 1: He was a kid and spent his whole life trying
10:50
Speaker 1: to say he was innocent and finally was exonerated. But,
10:53
Speaker 1: you know, the saddest part of that on a side
10:55
Speaker 1: note was that to this day, he can't get his
10:57
Speaker 1: life back, even though it's been proven that he wasn't
11:00
Speaker 1: the murderer, that he was, you know, the police basically
11:03
Speaker 1: did the same thing, had, you know, this bias towards
11:06
Speaker 1: him and blamed him from the beginning. And that kind
11:09
Speaker 1: of thing just seems like it should be illegal. It
11:11
Speaker 1: seems terrible that people can do that, especially to you know,
11:16
Speaker 1: people who are stunned, they don't, you know, they're, they're
11:19
Speaker 1: going through their own trauma. And, and it is interesting
11:22
Speaker 1: to watch this documentary because they do show the footage
11:26
Speaker 1: of Aaron being questioned and his behavior seems suspect. It
11:30
Speaker 1: seems bizarre because if I was accused of something and
11:34
Speaker 1: I didn't do it, you would think that you would
11:36
Speaker 1: be pounding on the desk saying no i didn't do
11:39
Speaker 1: it have you looked at the stuff that's laying in
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Speaker 1: my house have you you know they said they were
11:43
Speaker 1: going to call me look at my phone like you
11:45
Speaker 1: would be yelling all these things but i guess unless
11:48
Speaker 1: you're in that situation you don't know and also he
11:50
Speaker 1: was drugged and it seems odd to me did they
11:52
Speaker 1: even do a drug test to see if what he
11:54
Speaker 1: was saying was credible or not.
11:56
Speaker 3: Yeah and we'll later find out that when we hear
11:58
Speaker 3: uh When I heard what turned out to be Denise's voice,
12:01
Speaker 3: she's also similarly calm. We didn't know at the time.
12:03
Speaker 3: She had also been sedated, right? And people reacted to
12:06
Speaker 3: trauma differently, and that shouldn't be used against them. What
12:09
Speaker 3: is the right way to react to being violently sexually
12:13
Speaker 3: assaulted and traumatized? There is no right way. People react differently.
12:16
Speaker 3: And of course, that's why going into the psychology of
12:20
Speaker 3: it all, some people who are in a box in
12:23
Speaker 3: an interrogation room who have been questioned and coerced for hours,
12:28
Speaker 3: they just say, okay, okay, I did it. They just
12:29
Speaker 3: want to get out of there. They just want to
12:31
Speaker 3: say anything, anything, even if it means confessing falsely to
12:37
Speaker 3: get those officers to stop what they're doing because it's
12:40
Speaker 3: so coercive.
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Speaker 1: show and tell them that we sent you. Well, after
15:02
Speaker 1: the fact, I will say I I totally was impressed.
15:05
Speaker 2: By Aaron as a guy, as a gentleman. I mean,
15:09
Speaker 2: he handled.
15:10
Speaker 1: Himself so well through this whole thing, did not blow up,
15:13
Speaker 1: did not flip out. And that says a lot about
15:16
Speaker 1: a person, I think, because at the end of the day,
15:18
Speaker 1: he was proven to be innocent.
15:21
Speaker 2: OK, so she the police.
15:24
Speaker 1: Comes out they say that they're they're looking for someone
15:27
Speaker 1: but eventually um you know two it was only two
15:30
Speaker 1: days later right very quickly all of a sudden there's
15:33
Speaker 1: a video and denise is walking into her father's home
15:37
Speaker 1: unbelievably um what i didn't understand about that video and
15:41
Speaker 1: some people had some questions she shows up she's walking
15:43
Speaker 1: very slowly calmly but she has all these bags in
15:46
Speaker 1: her hand it almost looked like she just came back
15:48
Speaker 1: from a trip what was that about.
15:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know about what that was, except I'm
15:53
Speaker 3: not sure if she had that bag with her when
15:56
Speaker 3: she was kidnapped, you know, back in the trunk of
15:58
Speaker 3: the Camry. And I was a little concerned about who
16:01
Speaker 3: was that figure behind her, in a sense.
16:04
Speaker 5: Yeah.
16:05
Speaker 3: But I think that was right. Some people said, wait,
16:07
Speaker 3: she just comes back from a camping trip. She's walking.
16:10
Speaker 3: She's calm. And what are the odds? You know, kidnappers,
16:13
Speaker 3: real kidnappers have been known to drop you off on
16:16
Speaker 3: the side of the road, on the side of the freeway,
16:18
Speaker 3: in the middle of the desert. Here she is. She
16:21
Speaker 3: explains later she's on, you know, in Huntington Beach in
16:25
Speaker 3: Orange County.
16:26
Speaker 2: Door-to-door service.
16:28
Speaker 3: As I mentioned, door-to-door service. What is this, an Uber kidnapper?
16:31
Speaker 3: You know, so it's really bizarre. I mean, all the
16:34
Speaker 3: places on earth she shows up. It's her family's home.
16:39
Speaker 3: It's her home. It's where she grew up. And of course,
16:41
Speaker 3: the cops see that and say, OK, that's made up.
16:43
Speaker 3: Come on. Right.
16:45
Speaker 1: And then what becomes more suspicious is she chooses not
16:48
Speaker 1: to speak to the cops, which later we realized was
16:51
Speaker 1: because she was being threatened by the people that had
16:54
Speaker 1: kidnapped her. And she was worried about what would happen
16:57
Speaker 1: to her. But of course, they didn't sort of look
16:59
Speaker 1: into this further. And I guess we then see a
17:03
Speaker 1: press conference with one of the police officers. that basically
17:07
Speaker 1: says they, Aaron and Denise owe us an apology for
17:10
Speaker 1: all the work that we've put into this. And we're
17:12
Speaker 1: going to be investigating this further. And that's when people
17:15
Speaker 1: start coming out and saying, this is a real life
17:17
Speaker 1: gone girl situation. So do you think if the gone
17:20
Speaker 1: girl movie had not come out that people would have
17:23
Speaker 1: been as suspicious about what was going on here?
17:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, that time in that movie could not have happened,
17:28
Speaker 3: you know, at a opportune time or inopportune time, right?
17:33
Speaker 3: I think people saw that and you'll see in the
17:35
Speaker 3: docuseries the juxtaposition of the Ben Affleck movie with what
17:40
Speaker 3: really happened to Aaron and Denise and you can't deny
17:43
Speaker 3: the eerie similarities. Yeah, I think the public consciousness was
17:48
Speaker 3: definitely raised because of that movie. A lot of people
17:50
Speaker 3: had seen it. You know, Gong Girl was bandied about
17:53
Speaker 3: and of course that led to the actual kidnapper emailing
17:57
Speaker 3: me in an increasingly bizarre set of emails, manifestos, if
18:02
Speaker 3: you will, where guess what? He admits that they, when
18:07
Speaker 3: they use the royal we, they kidnapped Denise. She is
18:10
Speaker 3: to believe this really happened. They're confessing that a crime
18:13
Speaker 3: occurred and you got to believe Denise. So what are
18:17
Speaker 3: the odds that a bad guy will essentially say, I
18:20
Speaker 3: did it? Right. And the cops are wrong. Right.
18:24
Speaker 1: So what did you think when you continued to get
18:26
Speaker 1: these emails? I mean, you get this proof of life
18:28
Speaker 1: when she's missing. And then after she comes home, the
18:31
Speaker 1: police are still getting it wrong in the kidnappers eyes. Right.
18:34
Speaker 1: So he keeps writing you and saying, no, no, no.
18:38
Speaker 1: Let me tell you how it happened and ends up
18:39
Speaker 1: sending you photos.
18:41
Speaker 4: Right.
18:41
Speaker 2: And giving you proof of what really took place. What
18:45
Speaker 2: did you think when you were getting us?
18:47
Speaker 3: I'm thinking this is either got to be a continuation
18:51
Speaker 3: of an elaborate prank or. This guy or group is
18:54
Speaker 3: bonkers and strange. I've got, you know, weapons wrapped in
18:58
Speaker 3: duct tape and flashlights. I've got a picture of this
19:01
Speaker 3: room with the windows covered in trash bags. And I'm
19:07
Speaker 3: getting these emails at all hours of the day on weekends.
19:09
Speaker 3: I'm with my family. We began to fear for our
19:12
Speaker 3: safety because, you know, he's using psychological tactics and saying,
19:16
Speaker 3: you know, we are gentlemen criminals. We've been doing all
19:19
Speaker 3: sorts of crimes all over Mare Island, which is where
19:21
Speaker 3: the couple lived. And, you know, talking about drones, break-ins,
19:26
Speaker 3: it's just, it's like, it was no mistaking that this
19:32
Speaker 3: was really, really strange. And we forwarded all those emails
19:36
Speaker 3: to Vallejo Police, never gotten any official response. I've talked
19:39
Speaker 3: informally to contacts there and said, you know, what is this?
19:42
Speaker 3: What's going on? And they didn't seem to know either. Right.
19:46
Speaker 1: So how up until this point were you reporting this story?
19:50
Speaker 1: I mean, you're supposed to believe as a crime reporter,
19:53
Speaker 1: I think you're supposed to believe the information the police
19:55
Speaker 1: is giving to you. So how, in what kind of
19:58
Speaker 1: narrative were you reporting the story now?
20:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we've been reporting along with my colleagues.
20:04
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20:36
Speaker 3: Every step of the way, the ups and downs, the
20:39
Speaker 3: rollercoaster nature. But again, when that lieutenant branded this couple
20:44
Speaker 3: as liars and that went all over the nation, you know,
20:47
Speaker 3: we had to say what they say. We can't say, okay, well,
20:50
Speaker 3: they say they're liars, but we think that's not the case.
20:53
Speaker 3: They seem to be the arbiters of the truth, right?
20:56
Speaker 3: They're the police. They should know. And so traditionally, police
20:59
Speaker 3: will report police said this, police said that, you know. Yeah.
21:04
Speaker 2: And at that point, did you believe them?
21:06
Speaker 1: Were you like, what I'm getting is not true, it's
21:09
Speaker 1: a hoax, and the police have to know what they're
21:12
Speaker 1: talking about? Or in the back of your mind, were
21:14
Speaker 1: you like, no, no, no, I got to get to
21:15
Speaker 1: the bottom of this?
21:17
Speaker 3: It was really difficult to get to the bottom of
21:20
Speaker 3: this independently because this manifesto talked about all these different things.
21:24
Speaker 3: And it was kind of like a side thing. The
21:28
Speaker 3: thing is that now that Denise is released, we cannot
21:32
Speaker 3: go into... car thefts, burglaries. We need to look into
21:36
Speaker 3: the actual kidnapping. And so when the police said that
21:40
Speaker 3: this was a hoax, you tended to believe their version
21:45
Speaker 3: of the truth. At one point, there was a lot.
21:47
Speaker 3: What's interesting, I remember this, Rachel, a lot of the
21:50
Speaker 3: emails seemed written by, clearly written by a very intelligent person.
21:55
Speaker 3: And I even thought, this sounds like a lawyer. And
21:58
Speaker 3: we knew that. I think one of Denise's relatives was
22:02
Speaker 3: an attorney. So I thought maybe this is part of
22:04
Speaker 3: the hoax where the family draw suspicion away from Denise,
22:08
Speaker 3: had this lawyer write this manifesto. And now we know
22:12
Speaker 3: more about, well, I don't want to spoil anything, but
22:16
Speaker 3: we know a lot about what really happened in the
22:17
Speaker 3: background of the guy.
22:19
Speaker 5: Right.
22:20
Speaker 2: So, okay.
22:22
Speaker 1: I'm just curious when you're getting these emails, are you
22:24
Speaker 1: responding at all? Are you trying to communicate with this person?
22:29
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Every single, you know, the audio file and the
22:33
Speaker 3: each email, you know, I don't recall exactly, you know,
22:37
Speaker 3: the email address was something like, you know, Denise Huskins kidnapper. Aaron,
22:44
Speaker 3: I am not Aaron or I am Aaron or, you know,
22:46
Speaker 3: it's just these bizarre, completely made up things. But diligently,
22:49
Speaker 3: I do my due diligence, hit reply each time. Hey,
22:53
Speaker 3: let's talk about this. I want to get your side
22:55
Speaker 3: of the story. No response at all.
22:58
Speaker 2: Wow.
22:59
Speaker 5: Okay.
22:59
Speaker 1: So he, he, he wanted to open the communication with
23:02
Speaker 1: you to get his facts out, but did not want
23:04
Speaker 1: to continue to talk, which by the way, is also
23:06
Speaker 1: very smart on his behalf.
23:09
Speaker 4: Okay.
23:10
Speaker 1: So when she comes back, I think everyone thinks the
23:13
Speaker 1: case is closed. No, one's looking for a kidnapper. How
23:16
Speaker 1: explain to people how this changes. And again, We're going
23:19
Speaker 1: to go into taking a page out of a movie.
23:23
Speaker 1: Did you see Unbelievable? It reminds me of the story
23:27
Speaker 1: of Unbelievable where, you know, a rape happens in one town.
23:32
Speaker 2: No one believes her. The police accuse her of lying.
23:35
Speaker 1: And then it gets solved by a police department in
23:37
Speaker 1: a completely other town that happens to circle back and
23:42
Speaker 1: proves her innocence.
23:43
Speaker 2: So explain to people what ends up happening.
23:46
Speaker 1: On a side note, there is a woman who just
23:48
Speaker 1: started working in the police department and she ends up
23:51
Speaker 1: solving this crime.
23:52
Speaker 2: Can you talk about that a little bit?
23:54
Speaker 3: Right. So just like in Unbelievable, there was yet another
23:58
Speaker 3: home invasion in Dublin, which is in the East Bay
24:02
Speaker 3: of California, east of Oakland. And just like what happened
24:06
Speaker 3: in Vallejo to Aaron and Denise, the invader shined a
24:10
Speaker 3: laser type light You know, in the middle of the night,
24:13
Speaker 3: it's dark. It's the middle of the night. But for him,
24:18
Speaker 3: gets into a fight with the father. And this was
24:23
Speaker 3: a situation that the Dublin police knew was very serious.
24:27
Speaker 3: They eventually found that the intruder had left his cell
24:31
Speaker 3: phone there. And that was tracked to Matthew Muller in
24:36
Speaker 3: South Lake Tahoe. And the Dublin police are the ones
24:39
Speaker 3: who actually raid this home. you know, all the way
24:44
Speaker 3: in South Lake Tahoe, which is, you know, the vacation area.
24:47
Speaker 3: And they arrest Matthew Muller. And it was the dogged
24:52
Speaker 3: work of the Dublin police that solved this case because
24:55
Speaker 3: they realized they found goggles with a single blonde hair
24:59
Speaker 3: in it. And they knew that the victim in Dublin
25:03
Speaker 3: didn't have blonde hair. So they had to dig in.
25:06
Speaker 3: And they realized that Matthew Muller had been suspected of
25:09
Speaker 3: other similar invasions along the peninsula and in the South
25:13
Speaker 3: Bay of the Bay Area.
25:16
Speaker 1: And I mean, I recall from watching this on the documentary,
25:20
Speaker 1: and I wonder if this was, you know, kind of
25:23
Speaker 1: made for TV or if this was real, that this
25:27
Speaker 1: woman ends up, what is her name? It's Misty Caruso, right?
25:31
Speaker 1: She ends up calling the Vallejo police. And, you know,
25:34
Speaker 1: numerous times can't get anyone to answer the phone. And finally,
25:37
Speaker 1: when she gets them on the phone, she says, you know,
25:40
Speaker 1: she explains what's going on and she thinks, oh, my God,
25:42
Speaker 1: we're going to solve this case.
25:43
Speaker 2: This is amazing. And they really don't care. They're like,
25:45
Speaker 2: this case is closed.
25:47
Speaker 1: Again, the Vallejo police wants nothing to do with it,
25:49
Speaker 1: still believes the confirmation bias that this is a hoax.
25:52
Speaker 1: This is completely made up. They're owed an apology. So
25:56
Speaker 1: she takes it to the FBI. I want to get
25:59
Speaker 1: into the FBI for a second. So a guy named
26:01
Speaker 1: David Sesma was involved from the FBI. In the documentary,
26:06
Speaker 1: it alludes to the fact that he had had a
26:09
Speaker 1: relationship with the ex-fiancee, I guess, of Aaron, and he
26:14
Speaker 1: did not sort of recuse himself from this. Talk about
26:18
Speaker 1: that because so many people have questions about that. Why
26:20
Speaker 1: was he still involved in the case? What was his involvement?
26:23
Speaker 1: And then kind of going down the rabbit hole of things,
26:26
Speaker 1: I read, and tell me if this is true, that
26:28
Speaker 1: the ex-fiance, Andrea, was.
26:32
Speaker 2: Before Aaron was married.
26:36
Speaker 1: And had an affair with David and then ends up
26:40
Speaker 1: getting divorced, being with David Sessma from the FBI, and
26:43
Speaker 1: then leaves him to be with Aaron. So you would
26:46
Speaker 1: think that David Sessma has some bad blood, bad feelings
26:50
Speaker 1: for Aaron because she ended up leaving, ending that relationship
26:55
Speaker 1: and being with Aaron.
26:56
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on all that?
26:57
Speaker 3: I don't have the particulars of Andrea's background, but excuse me,
27:01
Speaker 3: what are the odds? What are the odds that an
27:03
Speaker 3: FBI agent involved in this case had been romantically linked
27:07
Speaker 3: to Aaron's ex-fiancee. I mean, jaws dropped. You see that? Like,
27:12
Speaker 3: what gives? I mean, how small is this world? But
27:16
Speaker 3: we later learned that the attorney representing Denise wrote a
27:21
Speaker 3: letter to the inspector general of the FBI saying, hey,
27:24
Speaker 3: this is completely unequivocally a conflict of interest, but they
27:29
Speaker 3: were rebelled. They said, no, we don't want to see
27:32
Speaker 3: any issues at all. So that continued on. And keep
27:34
Speaker 3: in mind, after Denise reappeared alive, not a murder victim,
27:38
Speaker 3: but an accused hoaxer, all the investigative details and the
27:43
Speaker 3: tenor of the investigation, as you know, was out to
27:45
Speaker 3: prove that Denise and Aaron made it up. And they
27:48
Speaker 3: were probably preparing a case of making false statements to
27:51
Speaker 3: the FBI. And so that's why the FBI took over. Blah, oh, please,
27:54
Speaker 3: you know, washing their hands of it. And when the Dublin...
27:59
Speaker 3: Sergeant or detective, that's why she got a brick wall.
28:03
Speaker 3: So it's just unbelievable how the FBI helped crack the case,
28:08
Speaker 3: in a sense, forwarded to the U.S. attorney, federal prosecutors,
28:12
Speaker 3: yet this strange connection. A lot of people are wondering, well,
28:16
Speaker 3: David Sessman must have some connection to Matthew Mueller, the suspect,
28:20
Speaker 3: but we don't think so. But a lot of the
28:24
Speaker 3: unknowns are still out there.
28:25
Speaker 5: Right.
28:26
Speaker 1: Um, since Andrea was supposed to be the original victim, um,
28:30
Speaker 1: we didn't talk about that, but when, um, the, the
28:33
Speaker 1: kidnapper came in, he, he had mentioned that he was
28:36
Speaker 1: there for Andrea, but he would take Denise anyway. Um,
28:39
Speaker 1: I'm curious, he did seem to know all his victims
28:42
Speaker 1: names ahead of time. It seems like he had done
28:44
Speaker 1: recon on the house or his victim. Um, you know,
28:48
Speaker 1: was she, before we would get into him, but was
28:51
Speaker 1: Andrea ever investigated? Has anyone ever tried to talk to
28:54
Speaker 1: her about what she thinks her involvement was or why
28:57
Speaker 1: her name was brought up?
28:59
Speaker 3: I would imagine so. I mean, my jaw dropped when
29:01
Speaker 3: I saw this documentary and I saw the footage of
29:04
Speaker 3: Andrea being interrogated. That was the first time I'd ever
29:06
Speaker 3: seen that. In fact, a lot of hats off to
29:09
Speaker 3: the documentary producers for bringing us never seen before audio
29:15
Speaker 3: and video of key interrogations and interviews. But You would
29:19
Speaker 3: hope that she was looked at. But again, whether or
29:21
Speaker 3: not she is involved, clearly the feds and the U.S.
29:25
Speaker 3: attorney believe that Matthew Mueller acted alone. Right.
29:29
Speaker 1: Which, again, so many questions about that, because both Denise
29:32
Speaker 1: and Aaron consistently say throughout the first night when they
29:37
Speaker 1: were kidnapped and then Denise when she was being held
29:40
Speaker 1: said that there was more than one obviously it it
29:43
Speaker 1: was clear that Matthew was the one that was with
29:46
Speaker 1: her most of the time but they they have always
29:49
Speaker 1: maintained that there were others has there has anything ever.
29:52
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30:22
Speaker 2: Come out of that? Has Matthew ever admitted.
30:24
Speaker 3: There were others? He's never said anything either way. Of course,
30:30
Speaker 3: one could wonder, is it true that, let's say, the
30:33
Speaker 3: blow-up doll that they found or recordings that I've heard
30:37
Speaker 3: included or they found some recordings of people whispering to
30:41
Speaker 3: make it look as if it's a group or did
30:43
Speaker 3: he plant the blow-up doll here and move it around?
30:47
Speaker 3: Denise and Aaron said that they heard people more than
30:51
Speaker 3: one person walking and moving things around in the kitchen.
30:55
Speaker 3: So that's unclear. But we do know that in the
30:59
Speaker 3: other cases in Dublin and the uncharged cases in Palo
31:04
Speaker 3: Alto and Mountain View, it seemed to be a lone suspect.
31:06
Speaker 3: So whether or not he was trying to make it
31:10
Speaker 3: all up and And again, the emails that I got,
31:14
Speaker 3: they also, we are a group of gentlemen criminals. We, we, we,
31:18
Speaker 3: we know that a lot of disturbed folks use the
31:20
Speaker 3: royal we to try to make it look like they're
31:22
Speaker 3: a bigger organization. Right.
31:24
Speaker 5: Sure.
31:25
Speaker 3: Okay.
31:25
Speaker 1: So let's talk about Matthew Mueller for a minute. He
31:27
Speaker 1: ends up admitting in 2016, he pled guilty to kidnapping
31:33
Speaker 1: for ransom.
31:34
Speaker 2: So he said he did it.
31:35
Speaker 3: Okay.
31:37
Speaker 2: Let's talk about him.
31:37
Speaker 1: His background is so interesting. He is a Harvard grad.
31:41
Speaker 1: He was a lawyer. He was in the military. When
31:45
Speaker 1: I've seen him talk with you in an interview that
31:48
Speaker 1: you did when he was in prison, if.
31:51
Speaker 2: You didn't know what was going on, you would think
31:52
Speaker 2: that that was a lawyer for the person he was representing.
31:54
Speaker 1: He was so well-spoken, reminded me of Ted Bundy. good
31:59
Speaker 1: looking guy that clearly, you know, has some empathy, has some,
32:04
Speaker 1: you know, thought process behind things. I was astonished that
32:08
Speaker 1: this was the person that it turned out to be
32:10
Speaker 1: and goes to show you that you don't know what,
32:13
Speaker 1: you know, someone who is.
32:15
Speaker 2: A sociopath or a psychopath looks like.
32:19
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can never judge a book by its cover.
32:21
Speaker 3: And we see we can see in the documentary docuseries
32:25
Speaker 3: that Denise also heard a clip of Mueller talking, interviewed
32:31
Speaker 3: on TV in a TV news clip, immediately realized that
32:35
Speaker 3: that is him because of his cadence, the way he spoke.
32:37
Speaker 3: And again, he worked in San Francisco as an attorney
32:41
Speaker 3: and naturally knew that the Chronicle is a good conduit
32:45
Speaker 3: for information, however one-sided. And it made sense because a
32:50
Speaker 3: lot of the manifesto seem to be written in such
32:53
Speaker 3: a way that this is pretty organized. Seems like a
32:55
Speaker 3: lawyer would write it. And he is a lawyer, a
32:58
Speaker 3: trained lawyer, although disbarred. Right.
33:01
Speaker 2: So I wanted to clear up something. So he pled guilty.
33:05
Speaker 1: But then later on, you were having a conversation with
33:08
Speaker 1: him in jail and he was going in for another trial.
33:11
Speaker 1: So I assume that was the state trial. He had
33:13
Speaker 1: been he pled guilty in the federal trial. And then
33:16
Speaker 1: you were talking about how he was getting ready to
33:19
Speaker 1: cross examine Denise.
33:21
Speaker 2: First of all, did that ever happen?
33:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, just the sheer audacity of him threatening,
33:29
Speaker 3: in a sense, implicitly saying, I'm going to be cross-examining
33:31
Speaker 3: the sexual assault and rape victim. That obviously dropped more jaws,
33:37
Speaker 3: but ultimately he did not. He just said, okay, I'm
33:39
Speaker 3: not going to do that, and took a deal, and
33:41
Speaker 3: then it was also sent separately in the state court
33:44
Speaker 3: for rape. Keep in mind, that federal case, there was
33:46
Speaker 3: no rape allegation. It was just the kidnapping. Got it.
33:50
Speaker 1: Okay, so he got 31 years or 40 years. There's
33:54
Speaker 1: different reports. What did he ultimately get?
33:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, if I recall correctly, he got like four, and
33:59
Speaker 3: I'm a little hazy. He did get decades in prison
34:02
Speaker 3: for the rape in federal court, and then I believe
34:05
Speaker 3: it's concurrent, excuse me, 31 years or so for rape
34:10
Speaker 3: in Solano County Superior Court. He's not getting out.
34:13
Speaker 4: Right.
34:14
Speaker 1: What really struck me is that he did show some
34:18
Speaker 1: empathy to some of these victims. There was a victim
34:21
Speaker 1: that we heard about in the documentary where he was
34:24
Speaker 1: about to rape her. He says he's going to rape
34:25
Speaker 1: her and she gives all sorts of excuses of why
34:28
Speaker 1: that would ruin her life. And he stops. He says,
34:32
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't want to put you through that.
34:34
Speaker 3: And he leaves.
34:35
Speaker 1: Also, when he's speaking to you, I found that he
34:39
Speaker 1: exhibited those feelings again, saying, well, if I do cross-examine Denise,
34:43
Speaker 1: I don't want to put her through this again. I'm
34:45
Speaker 1: not going to ask her some of these questions that
34:47
Speaker 1: would be obvious that we would all think he would
34:50
Speaker 1: ask her. And he's like, I'm not going to get
34:52
Speaker 1: into that with her. What were your thoughts about that?
34:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, again, it's just clearly the thoughts of
35:01
Speaker 3: a psychologically troubled Man, we learned that, according to his
35:07
Speaker 3: defense summary, that he has PTSD, mental illness, and obviously, clearly,
35:14
Speaker 3: that cannot be an excuse. There are lots of mentally
35:18
Speaker 3: ill or mentally challenged people, as we know, who are
35:21
Speaker 3: law-abiding citizens. And he went far off the rails, completely sick, dehumanizing,
35:27
Speaker 3: horrific stuff to Denise and Eric.
35:30
Speaker 1: Right, and he did use that sort of mentally unstable defense,
35:36
Speaker 1: even though he wasn't deemed mentally unfit. But at the
35:39
Speaker 1: same time, what about the PTSD that Denise and Aaron
35:44
Speaker 1: had to go through, which I thought was totally bizarre.
35:47
Speaker 1: And clearly in speaking to him or listening to him,
35:49
Speaker 1: you can tell that he is absolutely fit. He was
35:53
Speaker 1: fit to stand trial. I'm just curious because he seems
35:57
Speaker 1: like such a sociopath. he would be excited almost to
36:01
Speaker 1: do an interview with you, to meet you in person,
36:03
Speaker 1: to feel like he could answer some of your questions.
36:06
Speaker 1: Did he represent himself in that way? Did he act
36:08
Speaker 1: like he knew who you were?
36:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
36:11
Speaker 3: And, you know, but he was still obviously kind of
36:13
Speaker 3: beating around the bush, I would say. So you sent
36:15
Speaker 3: me these emails, right? If I recall, he wouldn't, you know,
36:18
Speaker 3: the lawyer that he was or he's trained, you know,
36:21
Speaker 3: he knows not to necessarily trap himself. So he was
36:25
Speaker 3: dodging a lot of questions, but he was very intelligent,
36:27
Speaker 3: very smart. And that's the scary part. you know, when
36:30
Speaker 3: you're dealing with a sociopath.
36:32
Speaker 4: Right.
36:33
Speaker 1: So, oh, another thing he brought up to you is
36:35
Speaker 1: that he had gotten married to the woman he was
36:38
Speaker 1: dating when all this happened in prison.
36:40
Speaker 2: Do you know, have you followed that story at all?
36:42
Speaker 2: Is she still with him? Has anyone tried to interview her?
36:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know her status. I do seem to
36:47
Speaker 3: recall reaching out to her, perhaps in the court gallery,
36:52
Speaker 3: one of the hearings, and I, she did not want
36:53
Speaker 3: to comment.
36:55
Speaker 2: Got it.
36:55
Speaker 3: Okay.
36:55
Speaker 5: Okay.
36:56
Speaker 1: Totally bizarre that a woman would decide to marry him
36:59
Speaker 1: after the fact. OK, so there's a theory that Denise
37:04
Speaker 1: and Aaron discussed at CrimeCon that since the original victim
37:08
Speaker 1: was supposed to be Andrea, that it was actually her ex-boyfriend,
37:12
Speaker 1: the cop that was behind hiring Matthew Muller, that he
37:15
Speaker 1: was trying to scare Andrea so she would come back
37:17
Speaker 1: to him. And she ended up marrying this cop and
37:20
Speaker 1: having a child with him. Have you heard that theory?
37:23
Speaker 3: I know I alluded to that earlier that, hey, could
37:26
Speaker 3: the FBI agent put Matthew Mullet up to this? No
37:29
Speaker 3: evidence of that, but you know, stranger things have already
37:32
Speaker 3: happened in this case and others, but as far as
37:34
Speaker 3: whether or not, I don't know the status of the
37:36
Speaker 3: personal life of Andrea and, or that agent.
37:40
Speaker 1: So in the end, I think it's very evident that
37:44
Speaker 1: we viewers all believe that the Vallejo PD really screwed
37:49
Speaker 1: this one up. Um, As someone who was involved in
37:52
Speaker 1: the case personally, because you were brought into it, but
37:55
Speaker 1: as someone who was covering this, what.
37:57
Speaker 2: Are your thoughts on how Vallejo PD handled this?
38:01
Speaker 3: Clearly, they were presented with a bizarre series of facts,
38:05
Speaker 3: and I can see how they went down the rabbit
38:07
Speaker 3: hole and assumed that Erin was guilty, that killed Denise,
38:11
Speaker 3: and later made it all up when she appeared. I
38:13
Speaker 3: can say that after another woman was kidnapped, after Denise
38:17
Speaker 3: was released, maybe a month or a year or so later,
38:21
Speaker 3: Their press release on that case was so detailed. It
38:25
Speaker 3: made clear that they believe the victim and that she
38:29
Speaker 3: was actually kidnapped. And so I would hope that there's
38:33
Speaker 3: been lessons learned by bilingual police and others and that
38:36
Speaker 3: people who see the docuseries will realize, you know, law
38:39
Speaker 3: enforcement needs to step up. I have seen, I've gotten many, many, many,
38:43
Speaker 3: many comments and thoughts and responses from law enforcement officials.
38:47
Speaker 3: contacts former and current they're saying you know i can't
38:49
Speaker 3: believe this happened this is ridiculous they did the wrong
38:52
Speaker 3: thing you never brand you know victims a liar like
38:56
Speaker 3: that and so i think this will be a big
38:58
Speaker 3: learning experience for law enforcement uh around the world.
39:02
Speaker 1: Well what's crazy after the fact is that i call
39:05
Speaker 1: him colonel mustard what is it detective mustard he he
39:08
Speaker 1: was he was promoted after the fact and became like
39:12
Speaker 1: chief of police or something crazy right.
39:14
Speaker 3: No, he was promoted. He got Officer of the Year, Rachel,
39:18
Speaker 3: for that year, 2015. And so, you know, and just
39:24
Speaker 3: to let you know, Misty, who cracked the case by
39:29
Speaker 3: Dublin Police. recently promoted to lieutenant. So that is a
39:34
Speaker 3: silver lining that she is getting the due diligence honors
39:37
Speaker 3: that she deserves.
39:38
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39:40
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40:04
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40:08
Speaker 2: Good, good.
40:09
Speaker 1: And also, it didn't seem like anything happened to David
40:12
Speaker 1: Sessma from the FBI. He still apparently is working and
40:17
Speaker 1: didn't have a slap on the wrist for his involvement
40:20
Speaker 1: and not recusing himself as well, right?
40:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know his current status, nor the status
40:27
Speaker 3: of that other agent who we see in the documentary,
40:29
Speaker 3: you know, belligerently accusing Aaron of lying. And I know
40:34
Speaker 3: you did this and you failed that lie detector test miserably.
40:38
Speaker 3: No idea of the status, but at least Mueller is there.
40:43
Speaker 3: But again, a lot of lessons still yet to be learned,
40:46
Speaker 3: I'm sure.
40:46
Speaker 1: And for people that don't know this, you know, Vallejo
40:49
Speaker 1: police did settle out of court and give the couple $ 2.
40:53
Speaker 2: 5 million, I believe, or give Denise $ 2. 5 million.
40:56
Speaker 1: I also read that recently something else happened and they
41:00
Speaker 1: had to settle for another $ 5 million in a completely
41:05
Speaker 1: separate case, which makes me wonder if anyone is going
41:08
Speaker 1: to start looking into the Vallejo PD. and, you know,
41:12
Speaker 1: ask some bigger questions there and to see if anyone
41:16
Speaker 1: would even issue an apology. I mean, still to this day,
41:18
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like they've taken any responsibility.
41:22
Speaker 3: Well, the former police chief at the time kind of
41:26
Speaker 3: had a written, you know, around the corner letter that
41:32
Speaker 3: apologized in a sense, but the couple and their attorney
41:35
Speaker 3: said that's not enough. There needs to be a public apology,
41:38
Speaker 3: not a private letter. Yeah.
41:39
Speaker 2: And the.
41:41
Speaker 3: The next police chief who succeeded that police chief apologized,
41:45
Speaker 3: but he's no longer there. And obviously he was never
41:48
Speaker 3: there at the time of the case. So there's a
41:50
Speaker 3: lot of turnover and churn. So whether or not there's
41:53
Speaker 3: any institutional change and improvement remains to be seen.
41:57
Speaker 4: Right.
41:58
Speaker 6: Okay.
41:58
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious, while this was happening, what did
42:02
Speaker 1: you think? I mean, I know you've said you believe
42:04
Speaker 1: the police, but inside, did you have a thought one
42:08
Speaker 1: way or the other about what was really happening?
42:13
Speaker 3: In the middle of it, I was all just confused
42:16
Speaker 3: by the police saying one thing, the couple saying another,
42:22
Speaker 3: the defense attorneys, and adamantly standing up for their clients.
42:29
Speaker 3: We know that attorneys will speak up for their clients.
42:31
Speaker 3: We know that the police have branded them as liars.
42:34
Speaker 3: I don't think I knew what to believe. And getting
42:36
Speaker 3: all these emails... I'm thinking this is a hoax. Is
42:39
Speaker 3: it real? Is that woman's voice real? It's almost like
42:43
Speaker 3: a one-off, you would think, because you can't replicate this
42:47
Speaker 3: kind of bizarre set of facts. You can't say, okay,
42:51
Speaker 3: this is going to happen again. Now I know I
42:53
Speaker 3: have a playbook of what to do when this happens again,
42:57
Speaker 3: because it may never, ever happen again in our lifetime.
42:59
Speaker 3: I doubt it ever will because of the circumstances. Right.
43:02
Speaker 1: So that's my next question. I was going to ask,
43:04
Speaker 1: how has this changed how you report a story? You're
43:06
Speaker 1: still a journalist. What have you changed in how you
43:12
Speaker 1: report or the angle that you report from?
43:16
Speaker 3: Well, I've always tried to be well-rounded in a crime
43:18
Speaker 3: story where for years, I mean, I've been in the
43:22
Speaker 3: business for a while, even before this case, you know
43:27
Speaker 3: that you talk to the police, you talk to witnesses.
43:30
Speaker 3: family members of suspects, family members of victims, you get
43:36
Speaker 3: a whole complete routed story so that you're not just
43:40
Speaker 3: parenting or going by any one set of facts. But
43:47
Speaker 3: in this case, you know that you can't take anything
43:50
Speaker 3: that police say necessarily with a grain of salt because
43:52
Speaker 3: they may have things horribly wrong at 180 degrees from
43:56
Speaker 3: what there is. So that's why luckily we have a,
43:59
Speaker 3: checks and balances system in court where the public defender
44:02
Speaker 3: or a private defense attorney will kind of rebut the
44:06
Speaker 3: government narrative, say, no, you might think this, but that's
44:09
Speaker 3: confirmation bias. You have tunnel vision. Guess what? Here's the
44:12
Speaker 3: real suspect. And we'll show you why. So we are
44:16
Speaker 3: thankful that there's this balancing out process in court.
44:20
Speaker 1: And I'm curious, what do you think the police really
44:23
Speaker 1: thought from the beginning? I mean, do you think they
44:24
Speaker 1: were doing they believed in what they were doing and
44:27
Speaker 1: they were going forward with that. Do you believe that
44:29
Speaker 1: they noticed that this couple, you know, that Andrea had
44:33
Speaker 1: been dating a cop and an FBI agent, you know,
44:36
Speaker 1: so they automatically didn't like Aaron. Do you think that
44:39
Speaker 1: once they saw it was, you know, not going the
44:41
Speaker 1: right way that they just stuck with it because they
44:43
Speaker 1: were embarrassed of how it was going to turn out?
44:45
Speaker 2: Like, what do you think they really thought?
44:46
Speaker 3: No, I think they really thought this was all made up.
44:49
Speaker 3: And so I think everyone was stunned when the Dublin
44:52
Speaker 3: police uncovered all that material from South Lake Tahoe that
44:56
Speaker 3: matched a lot of the evidence from the Vallejo case.
44:59
Speaker 3: So they had no idea what was going on. They
45:01
Speaker 3: were convinced that Denise and Aaron had made it all up.
45:05
Speaker 3: This was a gone girl situation. I think that they
45:08
Speaker 3: really had their blinders on, refused to realize that this
45:12
Speaker 3: actually happened.
45:13
Speaker 1: It's just so crazy to me that you would think
45:15
Speaker 1: after all this time or seeing that evidence that Detective
45:19
Speaker 1: Mueller wouldn't have later on after the fact spoken to
45:23
Speaker 1: Aaron and Denise and apologize. I mean, even just recently,
45:26
Speaker 1: you see that the case may be reopened with Scott Peterson.
45:29
Speaker 1: Some new evidence has come out and the, you know,
45:33
Speaker 1: one of the police guys working on it said, if this,
45:36
Speaker 1: if we miss this, this is on us, you know,
45:38
Speaker 1: we're going to look into this. So I thought that was,
45:41
Speaker 1: you know, everyone has thought Scott Peterson is guilty up
45:44
Speaker 1: until now, you know, and now this new evidence might
45:47
Speaker 1: say that the police, you know, messed up.
45:51
Speaker 2: I'm curious.
45:51
Speaker 1: I know there've been a couple other cases similar to this,
45:55
Speaker 1: in the last couple of years. I don't have the
45:57
Speaker 1: girl's name, but I remember there was a woman, I
45:59
Speaker 1: think it was also in California. She disappeared from her
46:02
Speaker 1: home and showed up later, all beat up on the
46:05
Speaker 1: side of the road. Like you would think, you know,
46:08
Speaker 1: that you would be left that way. And her husband
46:11
Speaker 1: was desperately looking for her and it ends up, she
46:14
Speaker 1: was not kidnapped that she did this all herself.
46:17
Speaker 2: And she went with her ex-boyfriend or something. Do you
46:19
Speaker 2: remember that story?
46:20
Speaker 3: And I believe her name was Sherry Papini. I also
46:23
Speaker 3: covered that case remotely from the Bay Area. And that
46:26
Speaker 3: is another story where, you know, there are people who
46:31
Speaker 3: do make things up, but there are people who don't.
46:33
Speaker 3: And so each case has to be evaluated on their
46:36
Speaker 3: own merits. You cannot assume that because A happened, that
46:40
Speaker 3: your B situation is A. It could be C. It
46:42
Speaker 3: could be Z.
46:43
Speaker 2: Right, right.
46:44
Speaker 1: So wait, did that case happen after the Denise case,
46:48
Speaker 1: Denise Hutchins case?
46:50
Speaker 3: Oh boy, gosh, now you got me.
46:52
Speaker 1: Well, the reason what I'm asking is, had you already
46:56
Speaker 1: gone through this and you knew, oh my God, is
46:58
Speaker 1: this happening again?
47:00
Speaker 2: Could it be real?
47:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just can't tell you the time. I can
47:04
Speaker 3: look it up on my phone, but it's just a
47:07
Speaker 3: situation where you think, you know, this is not helping
47:10
Speaker 3: matters for other women, victims of sexual assault and violence
47:15
Speaker 3: and rape. But that's one person and you can't, ascribe
47:20
Speaker 3: the behavior of one person to others. That's what we've
47:24
Speaker 3: learned from this case. Right.
47:25
Speaker 2: And then there was the other woman more recently that.
47:30
Speaker 1: Said she saw a baby on the side of the
47:32
Speaker 1: road and then disappeared for two days. And everyone in
47:35
Speaker 1: her family and her boyfriend were, you know, saying, this
47:38
Speaker 1: is real, please look for her. We're so worried. And
47:40
Speaker 1: then she came home and they still said, this is real.
47:43
Speaker 1: You know, she's been through so much. And then later
47:46
Speaker 1: we find out she apologizes and she made the whole
47:48
Speaker 1: thing up and we've never heard anything since. But, you know,
47:50
Speaker 1: there are stories like this, which is why people don't
47:54
Speaker 1: believe these things, even after the fact. And it's just
47:57
Speaker 1: crazy what people do for either attention or because they're
48:00
Speaker 1: mentally ill or whatever it is.
48:02
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's sad because as journalists, we don't want
48:05
Speaker 3: to necessarily alarm the public. Let's say there is a
48:08
Speaker 3: set of facts that we personally or as an institution
48:12
Speaker 3: don't believe. Let's say that, you know, gosh forbid, it's
48:15
Speaker 3: a sexual assault. You know, we don't we. tend not
48:18
Speaker 3: to say in print or TV, she or woman, we
48:22
Speaker 3: don't say a woman was sexually assaulted. We say, police
48:25
Speaker 3: say a woman was sexually assaulted or a woman reported.
48:28
Speaker 3: You know, these kinds of phrases that might signal to
48:32
Speaker 3: some people, hey, we may not necessarily believe her, but
48:34
Speaker 3: it would be irresponsible if we were to say, you know,
48:38
Speaker 3: this happened to a 14 year old girl when later
48:43
Speaker 3: on we learned that she makes it up. But then
48:45
Speaker 3: you want to, Be empathetic if this really happens. So
48:48
Speaker 3: there's a lot of hand-wringing that has gone on with
48:52
Speaker 3: this case and others. What do we say? How do
48:54
Speaker 3: we present it? And often the thing that protects the
48:58
Speaker 3: media per se is if the police say it, it
49:01
Speaker 3: must have happened, or there's a preponderance of evidence that
49:04
Speaker 3: it must have happened, let's say that they say this.
49:07
Speaker 3: And that's what got in all this trouble.
49:09
Speaker 5: Right.
49:09
Speaker 1: And you're talking about evidence, which is what I also
49:12
Speaker 1: want to ask about, because so many people are so confused.
49:15
Speaker 1: There was so much evidence left at Aaron's house, which
49:17
Speaker 1: they overlooked. There was the cell phone that he said
49:20
Speaker 1: he was going to get a phone call on, which
49:21
Speaker 1: they put on airplane mode. There was these emails you
49:24
Speaker 1: got that nobody... seemed to check where the IP address
49:27
Speaker 1: was from or how come they didn't trace it to
49:29
Speaker 1: someone else.
49:30
Speaker 3: Right.
49:30
Speaker 2: I mean, there was a huge amount of evidence that
49:33
Speaker 2: was just completely overlooked.
49:34
Speaker 1: And like you're saying, when a police officer or someone
49:37
Speaker 1: comes out, a lieutenant comes out and makes a statement,
49:40
Speaker 1: you think in these press conferences, you're getting the facts
49:42
Speaker 1: up to that moment that we can go on. And
49:45
Speaker 1: then from there, you know, we wait for another press
49:48
Speaker 1: conference because everything else is just hearsay.
49:51
Speaker 3: Right.
49:51
Speaker 5: Right.
49:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm glad you brought up that cell phone.
49:54
Speaker 3: People were asking me, well, why in our nation did
49:57
Speaker 3: the White House Police put that phone on airplane mode? Now,
50:00
Speaker 3: I've been told informally that that is a standard practice
50:03
Speaker 3: where they put it on airplane mode so that no
50:05
Speaker 3: evidence can be deleted or removed or altered. But guess what?
50:10
Speaker 3: You've just, you know, I understand that you want to
50:13
Speaker 3: freeze that phone. But guess what? You can't just freeze it.
50:16
Speaker 3: You've got to investigate it. So in putting it in
50:18
Speaker 3: airplane mode, we know that that blocked the the incoming calls.
50:22
Speaker 3: So it's, yeah, it's just a comedy of so many
50:27
Speaker 3: unfortunate errors that result in this harm. It's unbelievable.
50:31
Speaker 1: So after watching the Netflix, did you get a pre-screening
50:36
Speaker 1: of it or did you watch it like us on Netflix?
50:38
Speaker 3: No, I don't think, I didn't ask for any pre-screening.
50:42
Speaker 3: I saw it the first day, started to see it
50:45
Speaker 3: the first day it came out. Yeah, it's been a storm.
50:49
Speaker 3: It's gone viral.
50:50
Speaker 1: And what was it like for you watching it play
50:53
Speaker 1: out in the three-part series?
50:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's surreal to see. I asked the producers, am
50:58
Speaker 3: I in one of the episodes? They said, you're in
51:00
Speaker 3: all three. I'm almost like the narrator. But highly emotional.
51:05
Speaker 3: I cried. I'm not ashamed to say I cried seeing
51:10
Speaker 3: the reaction, what Misty reacted to all this, that she
51:15
Speaker 3: wanted to reach through, that she said, I got you.
51:18
Speaker 3: And seeing Denise cry. So strong and yet vulnerable and
51:24
Speaker 3: all the harm that happened. It was just, ah, I
51:26
Speaker 3: just got abandoned. But I was happy. We'll see at
51:29
Speaker 3: the end. A nice resolution as far as their family
51:33
Speaker 3: is concerned.
51:34
Speaker 4: Right.
51:34
Speaker 1: And what was the process for you of getting involved
51:36
Speaker 1: with this? Why did you choose to do it? I mean,
51:38
Speaker 1: I think obviously they had a lot of credibility. These guys,
51:41
Speaker 1: they had done the Tinder swindler before, which was a
51:44
Speaker 1: big hit. And, you know, were you nervous getting involved
51:48
Speaker 1: with kind of helping to narrate this, even though you
51:50
Speaker 1: didn't know that was your role?
51:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, I even when I was at the Chronicle for years,
51:56
Speaker 3: being back to the Scott Peterson case, I had been
51:58
Speaker 3: asked many, many times over the years to comment on
52:01
Speaker 3: various things. programs and documentaries about true crime stories that
52:05
Speaker 3: I've covered. So I've done that in the past. I
52:06
Speaker 3: just didn't want to, you know, pour any salt in
52:09
Speaker 3: the wound. So I made clear, hey, you know what, obviously,
52:12
Speaker 3: and rightly so, Denise and Aaron are upset at the
52:14
Speaker 3: media's involvement. And they said they understood, but they thought
52:18
Speaker 3: it was very important to talk about my involvement in
52:21
Speaker 3: the case. And I think it came out okay as
52:24
Speaker 3: far as, you know, hey, we regret all the circumstances
52:27
Speaker 3: that happened here. And hopefully there is some learning that
52:32
Speaker 3: has been done.
52:33
Speaker 2: You were such a big part of the story.
52:34
Speaker 1: Have you ever, you know, it seems like Misty was
52:38
Speaker 1: invited to their wedding. Have you ever reached out to
52:42
Speaker 1: Denise and Aaron or even after the documentary came out?
52:46
Speaker 2: What's your relationship like with them?
52:48
Speaker 3: I haven't reached out to them at all. I want
52:50
Speaker 3: to leave them their private time. I have been in
52:52
Speaker 3: the same courtroom as them in Sacramento and in Vallejo. And,
52:57
Speaker 3: you know, we just leave it at that. I'm doing
52:59
Speaker 3: my job. You know, they've gone through hell and back. So.
53:03
Speaker 3: I've left them alone, have not per se asked them
53:06
Speaker 3: for interviews since then.
53:08
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty amazing that they ended up getting
53:09
Speaker 1: married and having children. I mean, obviously, a circumstance like
53:13
Speaker 1: this brings people together, but could not be more happy
53:16
Speaker 1: for them.
53:17
Speaker 3: And just a shout out to the filmmakers and documentary
53:22
Speaker 3: makers and the cinematographer, Stephon. We see, I don't want
53:27
Speaker 3: to ruin it, but you see what turned out to
53:30
Speaker 3: be Denise, she was at the beach, right? All you
53:32
Speaker 3: see is the back of her head. And it's foreboding.
53:34
Speaker 3: It's like, what's going on? And then the same, you know,
53:37
Speaker 3: she turns and there's her family. First one kid, and
53:41
Speaker 3: then Aaron and the second daughter. It's just heartwarming to
53:44
Speaker 3: see that they're moving on as best as they can.
53:47
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
53:49
Speaker 1: Are there any other stories that you covered in the
53:52
Speaker 1: past that you don't think, you know, there's a real
53:55
Speaker 1: ending to yet?
53:58
Speaker 3: Well, certainly there's so many. Yeah, I mean, I wrote
54:02
Speaker 3: a book about another true crime case. You wonder, I mean,
54:06
Speaker 3: this is a case of an Oakland computer programmer who
54:10
Speaker 3: murdered the mother of his two kids. And so those
54:13
Speaker 3: two kids are without a mother. They're without a father
54:17
Speaker 3: who's in prison. They're back in their homeland of Russia.
54:20
Speaker 3: And you wonder, how are they doing? Do they recall
54:23
Speaker 3: all the turmoil that they went through? So you always
54:25
Speaker 3: wonder what has happened to families. of victims, of suspects,
54:29
Speaker 3: suspects themselves, police. So is that open-ended thing because these
54:33
Speaker 3: cases never leave you.
54:35
Speaker 2: Right.
54:35
Speaker 3: Yeah.
54:36
Speaker 2: I recently had Susan Hendricks on who used to be
54:38
Speaker 2: on CNN.
54:39
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember her. She recently wrote
54:40
Speaker 1: a book called Down the Hill about one of the cases.
54:43
Speaker 1: She followed the Delphi case of the two girls who
54:46
Speaker 1: were murdered at the bottom of a hill. And she
54:51
Speaker 1: got so involved in the case. And the book was
54:53
Speaker 1: really great because it talked about how she covered it.
54:56
Speaker 1: But also, you know, no one ever talks about the
54:58
Speaker 1: families and what they're going through and how they deal
55:00
Speaker 1: with it after the fact.
55:01
Speaker 2: So it was a really interesting book.
55:04
Speaker 1: Is there a case you're covering now, or maybe you're
55:07
Speaker 1: not personally covering it, but you're watching it because there's
55:10
Speaker 1: new information or it's something that is on your radar
55:13
Speaker 1: that you think is suspect that people will start to
55:16
Speaker 1: hear more about?
55:18
Speaker 3: Nothing comes out of my, but I will say that
55:21
Speaker 3: because of the advent of DNA technology and genetic genealogy,
55:25
Speaker 3: so many cold cases that many of us don't know
55:28
Speaker 3: about from decades past, cold case murders have been solved.
55:31
Speaker 3: We see all the Golden State Killer case, which I covered.
55:34
Speaker 3: I mean, it's unbelievable how things that we thought were
55:39
Speaker 3: gathering dust on the shelves, cases are now being solved
55:42
Speaker 3: years later because of things like genetic genealogy. That's where
55:45
Speaker 3: a lot of our focus has been on. Old Stanford
55:49
Speaker 3: murders case, kids who were killed a long time ago
55:55
Speaker 3: now getting justice. But some of those killers had themselves died.
55:58
Speaker 3: So that is sometimes a little sad. But there are
56:01
Speaker 3: some people who are still alive today being hauled into
56:04
Speaker 3: prison on murder charges. They're 60, 70, 80 years old. Right.
56:09
Speaker 1: I'm just curious. What about the latest news with Scott Peterson?
56:13
Speaker 1: I know you said you used to cover that case.
56:15
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on the new developments there?
56:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting that the L.A. Innocence Project has taken
56:21
Speaker 3: up the case because we've had everyone up to the
56:24
Speaker 3: state Supreme Court of California already rule, you know, although
56:27
Speaker 3: his death sentence was overturned, he's going to be facing
56:30
Speaker 3: life without parole. You know, we've heard all the evidence,
56:32
Speaker 3: but again, is there in fact merit to the fact
56:36
Speaker 3: that there was a burglary at the house across the
56:38
Speaker 3: street from Lacey and Scott? That remains to be seen,
56:40
Speaker 3: but you know, there was never any evidence tying these
56:42
Speaker 3: guys to killing Lacey. And of course, we all know
56:46
Speaker 3: that Scott Peterson said he went fishing in the Bay
56:49
Speaker 3: and that's where those, the bodies washed up. So, A
56:53
Speaker 3: lot of circumstantial evidence points directly at Scott Peterson. But
56:58
Speaker 3: I don't want to say, you know, here we are.
57:00
Speaker 3: We don't want to close the door. Our minds should
57:03
Speaker 3: be completely open. Everyone deserves their true day in court.
57:06
Speaker 3: And if this is another bizarre set of circumstances that
57:10
Speaker 3: points to his innocence, we better listen and keep our
57:13
Speaker 3: eyes wide open.
57:14
Speaker 4: Right.
57:14
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
57:16
Speaker 1: Okay, where can people find you if they want to
57:19
Speaker 1: get a hold of your book that you wrote, if
57:21
Speaker 1: they want to hear more from you? Where are you
57:24
Speaker 1: right now?
57:25
Speaker 3: I'm on Twitter, HenryKTVU. Facebook is HenryKLeeFan. Instagram, I think
57:34
Speaker 3: I'm HenryLee4567, I believe. But yeah, online email, you can
57:40
Speaker 3: just Google me. I'm covering crimes all around the clock
57:44
Speaker 3: on my social media. So join in and take a look.
57:47
Speaker 2: American Nightmare is, I think, number one on Netflix right now. Congratulations.
57:52
Speaker 1: I think it's amazing your involvement in it and how
57:54
Speaker 1: well the docuseries is doing.
57:57
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sitting with me.
57:59
Speaker 3: Thank you, Rachel.
58:10
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
58:13
Speaker 1: Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
58:16
Speaker 1: and give us a five-star rating and review. You can
58:18
Speaker 1: support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash
58:23
Speaker 1: misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for the
58:26
Speaker 1: show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast
58:30
Speaker 1: at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
58:36
Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time.
58:42
Speaker 6: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
58:45
Speaker 6: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
58:50
Speaker 6: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
58:57
Speaker 6: a treat. With eight flavours to choose from, you can
59:03
Speaker 6: choose the flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.