Latest / Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories / What a Special Education Teacher Taught Me About Presuming Competence | Zack Ponder

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What a Special Education Teacher Taught Me About Presuming Competence | Zack Ponder · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Zero pressure. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Inchstones podcast. We are focusing on the dads and fathers and anyone that is of the male gender that revolves in this orbit of autism and special needs. And I'm thrilled today to have Zach ponder on. He is the host of a podcast called Unspecial. Before we pressed record, I said, what's one thing that you want to get across? And he said, I'm not a parent of a special needs child, but I'm a washed up special ed teacher. And you know what? I want you to turn that around because there's no such thing as a washed up special ed teacher. I think that any one of you that jumps into a career or profession like that at any point in your life was sprinkled with some sort of angel dust before you landed on here, here on Earth. And it is not lost on me that you have spent time with students in profound disability populations, unlike most typical Americans. And so I'm thrilled to have you here and to share more about your journ.
• 0:58
  Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't plan on retiring from teaching. It was just a. We moved up to North Idaho. I taught there for a year. We moved from Southern California, so my. My pay got cut in half.
• 1:14
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:15
  Speaker B: And I tried, like, side hustle stuff, but then it just took me away from the family and I was like, I had to make that decision to. To move on, to provide for the family. But that was six years ago, five years ago. And I just knew I didn't want to stop because I just enjoy special needs. I know it sounds interesting to people to say that, and especially being a guy I don't know, and I particularly enjoyed the most, hands down, the profound there is.
• 1:47
  Speaker A: Listen, I am a broken record with this on my podcast. I didn't wake up one day as a new mom and think I wanted two children with profound autism like that. You. You realize as you become a mom of children with profound disabilities, how much we've been conditioned to not expect anything like that to ever happen? And it's one of the things I like to expose and talk with as openly as I can and, like, use any megaphone to do so. Is that why have we been so conditioned in this country as women and mothers and parents, to expect a certain trajectory and a certain white picket fence life when this population and the numbers, you know, rising, it's there. It's there. And I think that it illuminates the erasure side when someone like me who Had a great upbringing and a great career and lived in a major city and moved to the suburbs. The fact that someone like me was not even aware of this to the extent shows how conditioned we are by the stories that are being told. And what is the cacophonous nature of mainstream media and the global village.
• 3:00
  Speaker B: Yeah, it's crazy. Especially I mean a little the journey I'm on as a family. My wife was diagnosed with cancer two years ago and so yeah, we get in this mindset like we're owed something like own owed this cushy life and you know, the, the career, you go to work, come home, blah blah, blah, and everything is happy and healthy and wealthy. But then when you get that diagnosis, if things you, it makes you think a little differently and it really puts you in the mindset of like, okay, you can go down two paths. You know, I can be a victim and be angry and hate the world, or you can turn into purpose and go down the other way route. And it's like as hard as this is, it's happening for me.
• 3:48
  Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I saw something that you posted recently about. I believe it was like the empty seat next to you at church and how you would give anything to have your wife there next to you. And I think that's why you and I and a number of others connect so beautifully online, is that you're revealing something that most people, they don't see that when they look at the seat that's empty next to you, they're making up their own narrative as to why the seat's empty. They have no idea why the seat's empty. They're probably maybe not even noticing an empty seat. Right. And what I try to do on inch zones is like you don't know what you're seeing, but let me show you what the meaning is underneath. Because there's always something going on on the ground. There's all these figures. The figures are these stories we tell ourselves and the figures are just thinking that all these other souls bopping around our world have nothing to do because like we're the, we're the star. And I'm so glad you posted that because it just, it's, it sits nestled so deeply next to what I talk about when my child is eating a cheeseburger and holding it properly and everyone just sees a cute little eight year old boy. And that was years. And that probably won't happen again. It might not happen again tonight, but it does. And so talk to me about how you've been realized that you're a translator of those experiences through your wife's diagnosis. And like, what you see and what that underneath is, I mean, it really
• 5:13
  Speaker B: just puts everything in perspective. You know, when, when, when somebody you, you love and is close to is fighting and you really start to see things like in the Inchstones and even like this morning after I dropped the kids off at camp, I have an 18 month old. I took him to the coffee shop and I don't get out with him, just me and him all that often. And there was a little like a little grom play zone. Little. I'm in Southern California, they call it little surfer kids groms. And so it was a little grom play zone. And I just sat there and watched him for 20 minutes play with these wooden painted people. And he moved them from a chair to, to a table, to another table, to a car. And I'm like, man, this, this little dude has mastered being content.
• 6:05
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 6:05
  Speaker B: And I, I think it's in those moments where you have to like, train yourself to, to slow down, get out of the hustle and really take in the little things around you that are, are so awesome.
• 6:19
  Speaker A: They're right there. And I think it's the lens of life that you have to choose to see those. I find, and I'm sure you, in working with, you know, profound autism and special needs populations, that there's a lot of caregivers that have the weight and the heaviness of this life completely compound on them for an ability to see through into any sort of small piece of joy, gratitude, praise for the smallest of growth wins. You know, you've said before, I think that caregivers become this like forgotten population, you know, and I'm sure it, it resonates in your own life with, with being the healthy parent right now. You know, can you speak about that and what your beliefs are on that?
• 7:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's something I've been, that's something I've really been experiencing a lot lately. I mean, and I can feel it in, in all you parents and the parents I have on my podcast, like how much weight is held on the parent to care for the child, especially if you're the only parent. It, it's extreme and it's taken like a very like, what's the word? Specific approach to make sure that I care for myself. And this is of late, like my nervous system. So I, I go to a neurologically focused chiropractor and they do insight scans and scan my nervous system and I just got my results and they're they, they're trash. They're, they're terrible.
• 7:53
  Speaker A: I mean it's like, it's what you want to be like. Yeah, tell me more.
• 7:57
  Speaker B: He's like, it makes sense. I mean, granted I did do, I did do the Murph two hours before, so maybe okay, but I'm sure it's still pretty bad. And so I saw it and I was A month before, a month ago, I started to feel it in my body. Like something's, something feels different. I'm like, I'm on edge, you know, my nerve, my system is in fight or flight more and I can feel it. And so now I've had to take like measures to slow it down. Like breath work, red light, cold shower. As before, I just worked out and I powered through.
• 8:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:36
  Speaker B: But it's now it's been two years and it's starting to weigh and I have to do these little things. So to your question, like, what do I think about that? I think a lot of times we can feel like it's selfish, but like a better you is a better mom, a better dad for your kids. And you know, when you think about what they're going through and, and the grief or the hardships that they face and the unknowns, like you want to be that person that can co regulate with them and they don't have to like fear you or like the vibe you bring, you know, and I'm not so true.
• 9:15
  Speaker A: I mean so much. I don't know what your algorithm is. I'm really only on Instagram, like social media wise. I don't know what yours shows you, but I do feel like there's, there's has, is starting to become more awareness about regulation. Your own nervous system, it not being this secondary activity that it has to be baked in. And I, I will say, I mean I think that people, when you do start to carve out that five minutes in the morning or 10 minutes to do something that you know, based on what you, your own receptivity is to, it has helped your nervous system. It really does only serve your child best. Like I really do think and they, they talk about, you know, moms saying it's my heart walking outside my body. And my children, I, I believe that to be true. Like their pulse is because I can co. If I'm good, they're better. If I'm not good, they're worse off. And I hate to say put that kind of pressure, but it actually is like the greatest balm for centering the mom as the heart and soul of co regulation, you know, and it's, and it, it never fails to prove itself when I do.
• 10:26
  Speaker B: And it's, it's so hard sometimes. I mean like again this morning, my 9 year old, they're going to camp. Today's the first day. They don't know what to expect. Even though it's at the, it's with the same kids they went the co op with all year. Everything's the same except for they don't know what's going to happen. So he asked me a thousand questions and halfway through I started to get frustrated and I was just like, you know, but a minute into it I realized like, okay, calm down. He's nervous, he doesn't know what to expect, emotions are high. So then I just like, all right, I'm just going to answer all his questions.
• 11:06
  Speaker A: I'm just gonna keep answering them.
• 11:07
  Speaker B: Calm, just. What, what? Anything else? Anything else? I don't know, we'll figure it out when we get there. But what's next?
• 11:13
  Speaker A: You know?
• 11:14
  Speaker B: And it's, it's like that. That's huge. That was huge.
• 11:18
  Speaker A: Well, it ends up becoming in my mind sometimes during maybe a more of a meltdown or dysregulation point with my son, he's becoming more of the harder. You know, he's, he's, I always say like, what is autism? What is an eight year old little boy just having a dysregulated moment, Right. Cause it's, it's so different than what my daughter presented as at the same age. And when I have to dig deep in those moments and get him off the floor and make sure that he's not gonna claw at me or himself. I have this vision of me like doing the like bicep curls or like doing the plank or like in a, a yoga pose where I'm at 90 seconds and I wanna, I'm at, you know, fatigue. And I think of it as that like in my mind I visualize myself going, holding like whole, like let the shake happen. That's where the growth edge is and it's the only. And I don't say that it pulls me away from my son, but it gives me this like visual that I think allows me to get through it at the best of my ability to then serve him.
• 12:15
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. I'm gonna think about that.
• 12:17
  Speaker A: Yeah, like, yeah, like think about yourself doing the hardest thing physically or the cold plunge or the whatever it is and go. I can do anything for 30 seconds. I can do anything for 90 seconds. We're going to get him through this first and foremost because I know that I can do this for that amount of time. Zach, talk to me about the greatest lessons that you learned as a special education professional and how that has translated into being a parent of typical children. I think a lot of supporters of my work and of my family have a hard time understanding what it really is like in the realities and you might be one of the only people that can translate that not having a child with a diagnosis like, like profound autism. Could you speak to that at all?
• 13:06
  Speaker B: I think the hands down, the biggest and most powerful lessons or takeaways, insights, whatever I took from being a teacher for seven years was how amazing and capable of and smart and intelligent that my students were. I mean remind you they were for five years. I mean I only taught life skills, but particularly my first two years with profound autism, non speaking and violent. And I remember like a month into it and I didn't do any of the teacher training because the districts were so desperate for teachers. So they let, they let me just do my internship as a teacher the first year, which meant I was the teacher. Like I didn't have the first day I, I was supposed to be getting observed and one of the, my observer walked in and she was like, I don't know, mid-80s. Wow, sweet, sweet old lady. But right when she walked in, one of my students threw a shoe and it hit her in the head and she walked out and she's like, I'm not going to observe. You can, can we just meet in the faculty lounge? You could tell me what happened. So that was how, how my instruction went. So it was a lot of learning on the fly.
• 14:23
  Speaker A: There's a lot of bigger lessons in that because it's almost like, I mean that, that, that can become a model. I mean, I'm just thinking like that's basically the world. That's someone walk. You are, you, you are like me, right? I'm, I'm leading this crew that I have no training on. Someone from outside of the world comes in to just see support, notice things, gets hit, whether that's emotionally, physically, and then leaves and go, let's talk about this later. And you're like, I'm still in combat mode, like such, I mean it's such a perfect example. Like this is someone who genuinely, she's an educator too. Like, like these are parents too that want to understand. But the second it becomes difficult, they're like, Mao, thank you so much for proving to me that I can't handle this.
• 15:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, and that, that's, that was kind of my whole experience in seven years in public school education was like nobody actually understood what, what these parents go through, what the classroom goes through. Even when I would get observed by principals and assistant principals for my lessons where they would do my write ups and reviews of how I was doing as a teacher, they would come in for 20 minutes, no idea what's going on. They're like, oh, you know, it's, it's all in order. You're doing great, kids are getting on the bus, have a great day. But it, after like a month in, I could really just see in my students like that their wheels are always turning in their, in their heads. Obviously outwardly it's different and not the social norms, but I can see how smart they were. And I just started doing a bunch of research and I learned about apraxia and presuming competence. And I'm like, oh, thank you God. I already saw that and it's already happening. And you know, I just, from that I really started to lean into that and just, and run with it. Like I kind of just play.
• 16:11
  Speaker A: Do you find that, do you find that when you as an educator in. Took that presumption of competence and understanding the, you know, whole body apraxia, do you feel like you as an educator in those really tough moments gave you a sense of humility to the humanity?
• 16:31
  Speaker B: Oh, a hundred percent.
• 16:32
  Speaker A: Which, which ended up probably becoming a connective point to these kids too.
• 16:36
  Speaker B: Yeah, like full meltdown, computers flying. And I would always teach, teach my staff, like, guys, they can't control their body. They, they, they don't want to do this. And it was, it was made prove my point. After one of, one of my students meltdowns, he, he threw the keyboards, pieces went everywhere, computers were flying. And then afterwards he put himself in the calm room crying, took it all in. He came up to me and he had like very few words, but he said sorry. And I was like, guys, he doesn't want to do this, but he can't control his body. So in these moments, rather than escalate with them back to the co regulation, you know, it was really like, we have to stay calm. They're feeding off of our vibe.
• 17:28
  Speaker A: Mm.
• 17:28
  Speaker B: And it will go away faster if we just chill out.
• 17:34
  Speaker A: What do you think fathers, men that are, that have children with profound autism or are teachers? What do you think that you offer that's different than that of a, of a female or woman? You know, I, I can speak ad nauseam about my experience. I'll never be. I always joke, like with my partner, I'm never gonna be a man. You have to tell me verbatim like what the experience is. What does your primal innate experience as a man? How does that translate differently for this experience for you and how you share it with the world?
• 18:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think as particularly with, with males like the male students, there's just something. And I can relate it to like my son. There's just something with a father, son bond that can't be replaced. And I think it's the, the word that comes to my head is strength. Even though, I mean, I know moms are incredibly strong. But I think it's different as the dad. It's a different strength where the son or the male student can be bonded to that. And another crazy story from the classroom. I had this one student, he was six four, like 240 big dude, two to three on one at times. And one day he, he came to school, he was non speaker, very violent, not all the time, but when he was, he was. And so he, he showed up to school, didn't want to get out of the car. He was punching the window, like starting to hurt himself. And, and the mom was there and she was doing everything she could to calm him down. Wasn't working. The dad shows up and like we're, we're at full staff on the curb faculty. Everybody's, everybody's there, like, what's going to happen? The dad shows up and he. And I think it's a confidence thing too, like from the dad's side. Like he can get to that level with his son. He simply got in the car and we're like, what is he doing? This guy is crazy. And he just, he just sat there and his son calmed down like within two minutes and they drove home.
• 19:52
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 19:52
  Speaker B: And it was in that, like something about the. I don't know how to, not really articulate how to put words to it. But.
• 19:59
  Speaker A: No, I think, I mean I, I see it, I see it. You know, I'm in, I've been in this population of caregivers for so long when I am around in a group and I see the fathers living this life, you know, living this role. There is, you know, that protection that feels more like a, like the sturdy trunk of a tree. Like I'm immovable. Like I am immovable. And I am, I am going to stand so firmly planted in this so that you know that nothing is going to happen as I'm right here with you. And I think that that must feel different. To a child than the warmth and sort of tending and caring that a mom gives. It has to. I mean, there's. I can't think of anything more true in this kind, in this world than the difference of a mother and father to a child.
• 20:49
  Speaker B: Yeah. And it's like, I can't replace mom. Mom can't replace me. But I do. It's definitely more challenging for a dad to get on that. More emotional.
• 21:00
  Speaker A: Absolutely.
• 21:01
  Speaker B: Like, we're. I'll speak for myself. Like, I'm more like, no bs, you know, like, I don't care about your emotions right now. Like, figure it out. But then the mom comes in, and I think that's where, like, the perfect balance has to come into play. Like, every child needs that tender affection, and then they also need a kick in the butt.
• 21:21
  Speaker A: Well, I know that you just had him on your show or vice versa, but, you know, Tyler Hudson is a mutual, you know, friend, and I actually interviewed his wife Libby, and it's going to be an episode out soon. And it was. The episode was to focus really on her journey. And it ended up turning into a conversation about the depth and polarity of a ma. Of a mom and a dad in profound autism. And she was saying how, like, that polarity becomes sort of the defining goodness of how they can get through with their son and how you have to accept that polarity so fully and unconditionally. And I think that's exactly what, you know, what we're saying right now is that it is. Neither one is stronger or better or more prevalent. It has to be both. And it has to. You have to acknowledge the polarity in order for it to work best for the child.
• 22:11
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 22:11
  Speaker A: That balance, some moments, the dad is going to take over. And I'll tell you, like, I. I experienced that with my. With my Milly and Mac. I have an ability. With Milly being a woman and. And her as a. As a young girl, there is just something that she trusts in me as the. As has her mom. And I. I've said I'm, you know, I'm. I am a single mom, and so I. I find that I am trying sometimes to look at my son and say, I know that I can't do this perfectly right now, baby, but, like, I'm gonna try, and we're gonna. We're gonna muscle through this differently, to almost present to him differently, because I have to. Because I know that the same things that work for his sister do not work for him. They don't. They just don't. And I, like, sometimes it's the most freeing thing to just acknowledge it. Right?
• 22:58
  Speaker B: Yeah. No, that's a good point.
• 23:00
  Speaker A: What are. What are some things that, as you've built your platform and, you know, the unspecial podcast. What. What are some things that you have realized that are still missing from, you know, in mainstream media, in this country, in the stories that are shared? You know, what. What do you hope to bring with the platform that you've built?
• 23:21
  Speaker B: Well, I mean, what's missing is dads. For sure. There's not a. There's not many dads in the space, which, going back to, like, it makes sense. You know, a lot of dads, we don't want to share about our feelings or, like, that kind of thing. And most of them are out working, you know, caring for the fam. And so dads are missing in the space also. You know, they. Like, I don't know how deep you want to get into this, but the divisiveness in the community, it's like, there's so many. It's like this or that, this or that, but it's like both can be in the same space. Like, you can love your child and want to heal your child. Of course, everybody wants what's best for their kid. But then you get in there, and it's like, people are fighting about it. Like, you don't accept it's a waste of energy. It really.
• 24:09
  Speaker A: You know, it's. It like to not to go. So my dad's a physics teacher, and so I grew up with, like, a scientific, like, father. And, you know, energy maneuverability theory is real. Like, we're supposed. Like, we're supposed to not use as much energy on things that do not produce a outcome that's beneficial to everyone else. And I think that's exactly what you're speaking to. Like, it's such a waste of energy. Like, whatever is best for your family. Go at it.
• 24:35
  Speaker B: Boo.
• 24:36
  Speaker A: Like, that's awesome. I'm so thankful. I actually spoke at a event in March, and I had this sea of women mothers, and you could tell this one woman, this autistic autism mom was just like. She's like, I have this specific question, like, what do you think about xyz and has it been beneficial to your kids and whatever? And she just. She needed the control of what answer that I was gonna give her to help her, guide her. And she probably didn't like my answer. I said, if you deeply believe that that has a possibility to help your son, go do it. That is so awesome. Like, go do it. Like, I. I haven't experienced that specific thing with my kids. I'm not saying I might not pop up, but, like, go do it. And she, again, it wasn't the answer she wanted. I think she wanted me to say, like, that's going to produce this and that's the outcome. Like, yes. I've heard of tons of families that are doing that. And, like, you should do it and spend every dollar that you have on it. And I didn't give her that. And I think that that's exactly what you're speaking to, that. The chaos in the conversation becomes this energy sucker. Like, just go do it. There's no. You don't need anyone else to tell you to do it. If you think it's gonna work, that's phenomenal.
• 25:43
  Speaker B: Yeah, have fun with it. And if it doesn't, whatever, tell us what happened. Try something else. But I think mostly with. With the unspecial space is from teaching. I realized how hard a special needs family's journey is and. And going through so many IEP meetings, watching so many films, families crying and talking to them afterwards, it was like. It was incredibly lonely. So my goal and hope for the unspecial space is for parents to be seen and heard. And in sharing their story and their journey, it will not only bring hope to themselves, but hope to others as they hear it. But it's super fun. And ironically, I've been wanting to start it for, like, six, six years, but it didn't. It didn't happen until my wife was in the hospital and I started it. And I was like, you know, I don't know what's going to happen. But hearing all the stories and seeing how your parents show up, like, fiercely, it really brought me hope in what I was going through, and it, like, inspired me. Every time I record with someone, I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is crazy. Like, that's that.
• 26:55
  Speaker A: I mean, that's literally. It's the greatest. It's literally the more you are in service to. To your population that you are looking to illuminate, the more you get back. I mean, it's the constant infinity symbol. It's the polarity. It's the yin and yang. Zach, before we go, I ask this of guests a lot. What is one Inchstones? A small or meaningful moment recently that has reminded you to keep hope alive in your life, but also in continuing your mission with your podcast as well.
• 27:23
  Speaker B: One Small Inchstones. Man, I feel like it's every day just watching my kids. I mean, just seeing them develop and I'm fortunate to be able to homeschool them and so to see their minds turning and really, you know they, they inspire me to see like their resilience and everything they're going through and what's going through their mind. Like they're just another Southern California term. They're just ultimate frothers. Like when you froth on life, everything is just so much more fun. Like the littlest things like a, a bird on the telephone pole.
• 28:02
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 28:02
  Speaker B: You know like it was tripping this morning and they notice so they watching them but being able to really step back and like take it in. You can see there's so much beautiful stuff.
• 28:14
  Speaker A: I love that. Well, we will be sure to post all of the links and where you can find Zach and the unspecial podcast at the episode summary after this. Z Zach, thank you so much for being here today on Inch Zones.
• 28:25
  Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.
• 28:26
  Speaker A: All right, well until next time. Thanks everyone.