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The digital Trap: How loneliness and screens are hijacking young minds · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:08
  Hard-hitting medical truth, cutting through conflict and confusion
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  to the understanding you're searching for.
• 0:15
  Join Dr.
• 0:16
  Peter McCullough, world-renowned medical expert and practicing physician
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  for this edition of the McCullough Report.
• 0:24
  Your life may depend on it.
• 0:27
  Let's get real.
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  Let's get loud on America at Loud Talk
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  Radio.
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  This is the McCullough report.
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  And Focal Point Substack.
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  I'm Dr.
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  Peter McCullough, your host, and it's a great
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  pleasure to welcome back to the microphone, Dr.
• 0:38
  Maria Cosma.
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  She's an associate professor at Louisiana State University
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  in kinesiology.
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  And she has a breakthrough paper that's going
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  to be of great interest to all of
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  you, and it deals with the mind-body connection
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  and stress.
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  Dr.
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  Cosmo, welcome to the program.
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  Thank you, Dr.
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  Macala.
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  It's so exciting to be here again.
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  Thank you for the invitation.
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  This is I'm thrilled.
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  Yes.
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  Well, you know, it's very hard to publish
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  peer-reviewed manuscripts.
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  I think a lot of people have no
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  idea how difficult it is, and you've been
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  a real leader, you know, in this whole
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  area of the mind-body connection, and people are
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  starting to understand that the two are inextricably
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  linked.
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  And you know, for I think for the
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  longest time, people used to think, well, stress
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  is just kind of if in my head
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  it's just a psychological problem.
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  Uh but your paper and your approach suggests
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  it's it's really far more than that, doesn't
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  it?
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  Yes.
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  And what uh strikes me is when I
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  look at the way they try to manage
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  or treat stress, the first line uh approaches,
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  treatment approach of pharmacotherapy, or some psychological intervention
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  like cognitive behavioral therapy or transcranial magnetic stimulation,
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  stimulating certain brain areas uh that uh relate
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  to depression and anxiety, and you know, pharmacotherapy
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  is um something that has so there are
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  limitations, right?
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  And with drugs, as we know, especially especially
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  uh when they're used long-term, uh the adverse
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  effects, um medical costs, uh withdrawal effects.
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  So um, and you know, when such an
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  intervention is needed, it is needed.
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  Uh I'm not I'm not going to uh
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  question uh you know those prescriptions, but um
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  I I approach this from a different perspective.
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  So I'm it's interesting that it is also
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  cognitive and brain-oriented, and it's like we forgot
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  our body.
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  Yeah.
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  It's so true, but you know, by way
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  of introduction, isn't it some large fraction of
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  young people have a some type of uh
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  psychological or mental diagnosis?
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  Isn't that true?
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  Yeah.
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  So the most reported mental health issue right
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  now in the USA is diagnosed among young
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  adults and especially among young women between 16
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  to 24 years old.
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  Uh about one out of four women uh
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  have some mental health problem, depression or anxiety.
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  So it's uh it's a mental health crisis
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  in the USA.
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  Um it it is what we have, it
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  is undeniable.
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  And what's the most common disorder, if you
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  were to name one or one group of
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  disorders?
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  Uh well, it's several anxiety, depression, eating disorders.
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  Uh eating disorders is uh something uh that
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  is rising again, and part of it is
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  social media, uh cyberbullying, and um it is
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  something that uh at least in Europe, they're
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  trying to take measures and actions regarding social
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  media, access to social media, especially for those
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  under 15 or 16 years old.
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  Um restrictions or even bonds have started, uh
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  started this January, January 2026, and with some
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  countries um planning on starting next year.
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  Now, I don't know about those bans and
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  restrictions, and this may um backfire.
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  I'm not sure if I am um if
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  this is the solution.
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  Uh, but at least there is motion there
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  in in Europe, and um from what I
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  see, I always receive papers like from Brazil
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  and other countries where they alert me, hey,
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  social media links to mental health problems among
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  young people, especially women, it links to academic
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  decline.
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  Uh, we need to do something.
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  Well, so is that all that is that
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  true?
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  So let's take uh anxiety as the most
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  uh you know, as a common disorder.
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  So is generalized anxiety in young people.
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  Is that directly linked to social media usage?
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  Well, uh not um so one aspect is
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  uh how social media is used and what
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  uh people post and how they are supposed
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  to appear and what they're supposed to be
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  doing.
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  Um it's not only social media, it's also
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  other things like uh pressure, educational pressures, financial
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  pressures, uh, but certainly also the addiction link
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  to uh social media, the um the design
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  of the platform that that encourages infinite scrolling.
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  And so all that, especially also what um
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  my students are telling me, or um, within
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  the studies, the participants within the studies that
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  I've done.
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  Uh social media is an issue.
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  I'm not saying it's the only issue, but
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  it is an issue.
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  But as I said, educational pressures, financial pressures.
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  Um it seems to me there's a confluence
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  of things.
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  You know, we're increasingly uh more of a
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  technologically driven society.
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  Um dating has almost exclusively gone to online
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  dating.
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  I I know this because my daughter's not
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  married, so we kind of check in periodically,
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  and you know, meeting somebody in the office
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  or at school at church is is a
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  low frequency uh hookup compared to online dating
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  Hookup compared to online dating apps.
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  apps.
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  And so, you know, increasingly when I meet
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  And so, you know, increasingly when I meet
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  young people, and I ask, well, how did
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  young people, and I ask, well, how did
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  you meet?
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  you meet?
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  Well, we met online.
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  Well, we met online.
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  We met on a dating app, and they
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  We met on a dating app, and they,
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  you know ended up uh, you know, getting
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  you know, ended up uh, you know, getting
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  married.
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  married.
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  I think the other thing too is um
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  I think the other thing too is um
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  is uh at a much later age.
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  is uh at a much later age.
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  I mean, aren't people getting married at a
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  I mean, aren't people getting married at a
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  later age?
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  later age?
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  And so there's you know, there's the whole
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  And so there's you know, there's the whole
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  uh you know education, career.
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  uh you know education, career track, and then
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  marriage later.
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  And I'm we're focusing in on young women
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  right now.
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  And uh, you know, I would say that
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  in my experience and young women who have
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  anxiety, a common problem is sleep disturbance that
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  they commonly say, I have trouble sleeping.
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  And um here you go.
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  So there's anxiety, uh, there's uh all these
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  pressures.
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  Many times the young person is living alone
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  in an apartment, and you know, there should
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  be no reason why they're having trouble sleeping,
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  but they're alone and they're having trouble sleeping,
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  and then the next day they're anxious and
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  it just keeps going and going.
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  Right.
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  That is this laundry list running, and the
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  insomnia it is one major uh consequence of
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  anxiety disorders, and we see this more often
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  among young women than men, and which again,
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  it I think it also links to social
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  pressures related to what uh young women are
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  supposed to be doing in a chief versus
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  men, and there are pressures also for men.
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  So and social media.
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  Let me I want to ask you, Dr.
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  Cos, I want to ask you a provocative
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  question, because my my wife and I have
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  been thinking about this.
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  So I'll just apply it to my daughter
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  who's 30 years old.
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  She's not married, and she's you know, she's
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  living alone.
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  And I can tell you, since she has
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  graduated from college, she went to law school,
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  and now she's working.
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  And as I count the years, I think
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  she's been living alone for about eight years.
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  Eight years.
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  Now, when I look back on this, neither
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  my wife nor myself, we've never lived alone.
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  We've never lived alone.
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  I I lived always had a brother in
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  the bedroom, or uh, and then when I
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  went up to college, I always had a
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  roommate in college and in medical school, and
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  then right after medical school, I got married.
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  And then after that, I've been living with
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  my wife ever since.
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  So to tell you the truth, I've never
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  honestly for any period of time slept alone.
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  My wife certainly has not slept alone.
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  I mean I guess what I'm asking you,
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  you know, is it is the human organism,
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  you know, uh are we perfectly adapted to
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  being alone at night for years and years
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  and years, or throughout human evolution and adaptation,
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  were we always with other people?
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  As far as I know, human beings are
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  social beings, and by nature, we are supposed
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  to live with others, not to be alone.
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  We're not supposed to be isolated, um, have
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  companions, have uh good social group, social network.
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  Um let me let me ask you, Dr.
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  Cosmo, how many years have you been married?
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  Oh, I was married um I've been married
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  for 22 years.
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  So you've been married for 20 years.
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  Do you have been married?
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  Are you still married now?
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  Yes.
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  Okay, so you've been married for 23 years.
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  I've been married for 36 years.
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  So both of us have had running conversations
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  with our spouses for decades.
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  Like every day there's a running conversation.
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  Right?
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  And so there's that social connectedness.
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  Well, you know, I know people uh, you
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  know, in now our families that have lived
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  alone, let's say five or ten years.
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  They simply don't have that running conversation with
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  someone.
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  They sleep alone, and and my observation is
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  maybe I'm biased, but people who are single
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  and they live alone, almost every single person
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  that I'm aware of has difficulty sleeping.
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  Everyone has difficulty sleeping, and I think many
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  of them have generalized anxiety.
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  And the question is does loneliness does that
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  go along with sleep disturbance and generalized anxiety
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  in your experience?
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  Sure.
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  Studies have shown that people who have partners
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  or they're married mentally they're better than people
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  who live alone.
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  So your observation is correct.
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  Um and it makes sense.
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  Again, as uh human beings, we are to
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  be social, we are to socialize with other
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  people, we are not to live alone.
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  And loneliness is a big factor here when
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  it comes to mental health issues and sleep
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  disorders.
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  So certainly can it be overcome?
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  Can it be overcome with FaceTime and with
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  frequent calls?
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  So I can tell you for an example.
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  So in my wife's culture, my wife talks
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  to her mother when her mother's not with
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  us, um uh and she talks to my
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  daughter and my like probably three to five
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  times a day.
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  So the question is can that distance and
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  loneliness be overcome with just frequent FaceTime and
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  phone calls?
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  Uh certainly it helps.
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  Okay.
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  I I talk with uh people in Greece,
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  I'm from Greece.
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  Uh I talk with friends who on the
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  phone, or we have FaceTime who are not
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  uh here in Baton Rouge, they're in different
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  places in the States.
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  So it helps.
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  Um now, if you ask me, is it
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  the same as having the person next to
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  you?
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  And um really being so do you have
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  brothers and sisters in Greece?
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  Uh I have a brother.
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  Yeah, brother.
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  How often do you talk to him?
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  Um not that often, but we do.
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  Uh we talk, I talk more often with
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  my mom.
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  Like, oh, so so let me ask you,
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  how often do you talk to your mom?
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  Uh three, four times a week.
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  Three or four times a week.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, I can tell you, um uh my
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  wife talks, my wife is in Dallas, she
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  talks to her brother at least five times
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  a day.
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  Oh at least.
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  There's a check in about what's going on
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  What's going on in the morning, and then
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  in the morning, and then what are they
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  what are they eating for dinner, and then
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  eating for dinner, and then what's going on,
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  what's going on?
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  this and that, at least five times a
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  This and that, at least five times a
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  day.
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  day.
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  Uh, and then there's a check-in with her
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  And then there's a check-in with her sister.
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  sister.
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  But I can tell you, uh, I think
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  But I can tell you, I think that
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  that it's a cultural thing.
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  it's a cultural thing.
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  My wife's from the Middle East, you're from
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  My wife's from the Middle East, you're from
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  Greece.
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  Greece.
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  It turns out my wife is uh uh
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  It turns out my wife is is uh
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  you know has uh Greek in her lineage
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  uh you know, has uh Greek in her
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  as well.
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  lineage as well.
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  Okay.
• 14:21
  Okay.
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  Uh so I I can tell you that
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  Uh so I I can tell you that
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  an Anglo American, let's say from like my
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  an Anglo American, let's say from like my
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  family's from uh
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  family's from uh Ireland, you know, there are
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  people who are Anglo Americans, they don't talk
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  to their relatives for years.
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  Do you know that?
• 14:39
  Yeah, well, my husband is from Belgium, so
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  I I know that.
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  Right.
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  I mean, they don't talk for years.
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  And so uh I I think maybe this
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  comes from the British or from the Western
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  Europeans.
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  Um it's very different than the Mediterranean cultures,
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  the Middle Eastern, the South American cultures.
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  Um I think there are cultural differences that
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  uh, you know, there are cultures that are
• 15:08
  very you know, close-knit in their families, but
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  a close-knit family many times is defined as
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  frequently talking and frequently communicating and visiting uh
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  you know, even if they're at long distance.
• 15:23
  Well, if we see look at South America
• 15:26
  and their culture, and so epidemiologically I have
• 15:30
  seen and I have talked with several other
• 15:33
  researchers, and the question is they're happier than
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  us, but look, they are more overweight than
• 15:41
  us, they don't exercise, okay, they're dancing, and
• 15:44
  socialized, and then they're happy people, they socialize,
• 15:48
  they have strong networks, and so they are
• 15:52
  mentally they seem to be better, maybe because
• 15:55
  they do.
• 15:59
  I mean, I've been all through Central America
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  and South America.
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  I have a sense that there's a greater
• 16:05
  degree of of happiness and more family togetherness,
• 16:08
  and the same thing across the Middle East.
• 16:11
  I would say the uh when I say
• 16:14
  Mediterranean, I mean like uh Turkey, Greece, uh,
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  Italy, Croatia, um, you know, the those countries.
• 16:22
  You just get a sense of it.
• 16:24
  And um, you know, I do think in
• 16:28
  the kind of Anglo American um culture, it's
• 16:32
  a culture of uh individuality, it's a culture
• 16:35
  of you know, um pursuit of excellence, personal
• 16:39
  pursuit of education and excellence.
• 16:43
  But but I think there's a consequence to
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  that.
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  And the consequence is loneliness and this general
• 16:48
  free-floating anxiety, and and I think your research
• 16:51
  points to the fact that it's not just
• 16:54
  psychological that it has a spillover to the
• 16:56
  body.
• 16:59
  Yes.
• 17:01
  And the inspiration has been the work of
• 17:04
  Merle Ponty and his concept of embodiment, body-mind
• 17:07
  unison.
• 17:11
  Uh he was a prominent uh French philosopher
• 17:15
  post-World War II, and so the body-mind connection
• 17:19
  goes back to Buddhism, certain types of yoga,
• 17:23
  which is part of Eastern culture to Aristotle,
• 17:27
  uh, Mediterranean culture, to Edmund Husserl who was
• 17:31
  the founder of phenomenology, and his successor, Merlo
• 17:36
  Ponty, for as far as I know, he
• 17:40
  is the only one who plays the body
• 17:44
  at the center of perception.
• 17:49
  And when he talks about the body, he
• 17:52
  means also the mind.
• 17:56
  So in so he went against the Cartesian
• 17:59
  theorizing of the separation of the two to
• 18:02
  different entities, and then the physiologists mechanistically they
• 18:05
  try to connect feedback loops, like the HPAxis,
• 18:08
  like the HPT axis.
• 18:14
  Well, can you explain that?
• 18:15
  This HPA axis of our listeners.
• 18:18
  Yes.
• 18:18
  So the hypothyamic pituitary adrenal access, and I
• 18:21
  use this only as an example on my
• 18:24
  paper, because of the cortisol levels and the
• 18:28
  strong linkage to stress, right?
• 18:31
  But we can take other access too, and
• 18:35
  I have published papers using the HPT axis,
• 18:38
  the hypothalamic pituitary thyroid access, the macrobiome gut
• 18:41
  uh brain access, which is popular nowadays, the
• 18:45
  gut brain uh bidirectional relationship.
• 18:48
  But anyway, so the HP access, so shortly
• 18:52
  in a in a healthy within a healthy
• 18:56
  stress response, when our body encounters the stressor,
• 19:01
  the hypothalamus will release the corticotropin releasing hormone,
• 19:05
  which will trigger the anterior pituitary to release
• 19:09
  the adrenocorticotropic ACTH hormone, which will trigger the
• 19:13
  adrenal cortex to release cortisol and the medulla
• 19:17
  to release to produce noradrenaline, adrenaline, the neurotransmitters
• 19:22
  to prepare the body for the stressor.
• 19:26
  So the sympathetic nervous system, part of the
• 19:29
  autonomic nervous system, is um is um activated
• 19:33
  as heart rate goes up, respiratory rate goes
• 19:36
  up, blood pressure goes up, uh blood flow
• 19:39
  goes to the moves to the skeletal muscles,
• 19:43
  the intestinal, the blood flow in the intestinal
• 19:46
  area decreases.
• 19:49
  This is all no normal.
• 19:51
  So when the stressor is uh is gone,
• 19:55
  or uh when it's time for the body
• 19:59
  to um to properly deal with the stressor,
• 20:02
  there is the negative feedback loop where the
• 20:06
  the hypothalamus will be informed that hey enough
• 20:10
  cortisol level in the body, now you have
• 20:14
  to either stop it uh or dump and
• 20:18
  reduce control the secretion of those stress-related hormones.
• 20:22
  We don't need any more cortisol in the
• 20:25
  body, and that's that's a normal response when
• 20:28
  everything goes fine, right?
• 20:32
  But with constant stress, and with uh a
• 20:37
  lot of stress and extreme and uh intense
• 20:42
  stress, this HPA axis can be dysregulated.
• 20:48
  In what way?
• 20:50
  Cortisol levels uh keep going.
• 20:54
  And it can lead to autoimmune conditions, it
• 20:57
  can lead to metabolic conditions, high blood pressure,
• 21:00
  Conditions, high blood pressure, high cholesterol levels, type
• 21:01
  high cholesterol levels, type 2 diabetes.
• 21:02
  2 diabetes, it can lead to mental health
• 21:04
  It can lead to mental health problems, high
• 21:05
  problems.
• 21:08
  stress, high depression.
• 21:09
  High stress, high depression.
• 21:12
  So based on the mechanistic way of viewing
• 21:12
  So based on the mechanistic way of viewing
• 21:16
  mental health and dealing with the stress, uh
• 21:16
  mental health and dealing with the stress, they
• 21:20
  they the emphasis on the brain.
• 21:20
  the emphasis on the brain.
• 21:24
  Oh, it's a mental, it's a brain thing,
• 21:24
  Oh, it's a mental, it's a brain thing,
• 21:27
  uh drugs.
• 21:28
  drugs, or cognitive behavioral therapy.
• 21:32
  And nothing wrong, you know, if this is
• 21:35
  needed, this is needed, and nothing wrong with
• 21:37
  cognitive behavioral therapy, you know.
• 21:40
  Try to um control the thoughts and the
• 21:43
  rumination, right?
• 21:47
  However, uh what about the body?
• 21:52
  So the body is viewed uh like an
• 21:54
  object.
• 21:57
  The mind, the brain sense stimuli to the
• 22:01
  body, and the body just mechanistically responds.
• 22:05
  It's like a a puppet that has no
• 22:07
  mind.
• 22:10
  Well, I are you describing like Freudian psychology
• 22:12
  where that's what the body is, it's just
• 22:14
  like a machine.
• 22:16
  Yeah, very Cartesian right now, very mechanistic, very
• 22:21
  uh classical psychologists, yes, exactly that.
• 22:25
  It's the brain, the body is just a
• 22:28
  an object, a statistic.
• 22:32
  So I I disagree with that.
• 22:34
  And I've done a lot of research proving
• 22:37
  the opposite, and I the body schema aspect,
• 22:40
  and I will talk about that.
• 22:44
  I was inspired by Merle Ponty's um explanation
• 22:48
  of the fandom limb syndrome.
• 22:53
  And I published a paper on this about
• 22:57
  how our habitual body, the embodied body, the
• 23:01
  body mind, the the way we are habituated
• 23:05
  in the world, as you said, through culture,
• 23:09
  uh through movement towards and within the world,
• 23:13
  how this explains the fandom limb syndrome versus
• 23:17
  purely physiological or purely psychological theories.
• 23:22
  Instead, it's the body schema, it's a habitual
• 23:25
  body, the way we function in society in
• 23:28
  the world that brings the two the psychological
• 23:31
  and the physiological together.
• 23:37
  That's fascinating.
• 23:38
  It's so true.
• 23:39
  I notice that when I exercise or I
• 23:42
  have a good day of just physical uh
• 23:44
  activity, I just feel so much better.
• 23:48
  Like my I just feel as if my
• 23:49
  my stress levels are down.
• 23:51
  However, if I have a day where I'm
• 23:53
  in the office and then I finish and
• 23:55
  then a meeting or what have you, and
• 23:57
  I get home and there's no exercise at
• 23:59
  all.
• 24:02
  You know, I I do, I do, I
• 24:04
  guess I do feel a bit more stressed
• 24:07
  or anxious, or I certainly don't feel good.
• 24:10
  And um, you know, I know my best
• 24:12
  night's sleep, and I keep bringing up sleep
• 24:14
  because I think it's a big part of
• 24:15
  it.
• 24:17
  Yeah, my best night's sleep is when I
• 24:19
  go exercise.
• 24:20
  So if I have a big, big battery
• 24:23
  of exercise, I do all my all my
• 24:25
  exercises, what have you, oh my lord, I
• 24:27
  sleep so well that night.
• 24:30
  Yes, it is true.
• 24:32
  And same with me.
• 24:33
  Uh we you you have you you have
• 24:36
  an active body schema.
• 24:40
  Your habitual body is active, you're uh regular
• 24:42
  exerciser.
• 24:45
  So when you have to be sedentary, something's
• 24:48
  off, something's wrong.
• 24:52
  Like you you just don't uh uh feel
• 24:53
  good.
• 24:54
  I I want to bring up another uh
• 24:56
  scenario.
• 24:58
  Have you ever had a stressful meeting?
• 25:00
  And I know you in academic um education,
• 25:03
  you have stressful meetings, a faculty meeting, or
• 25:06
  something like that.
• 25:09
  Uh and I'm sure everybody listening to this
• 25:10
  can relate.
• 25:12
  Have you ever had a stressful encounter of
• 25:13
  some type?
• 25:15
  And then you can't sleep that night.
• 25:18
  Have you ever had that happen?
• 25:20
  Oh, yes.
• 25:21
  Well, but why does that happen?
• 25:24
  Um that's a good question.
• 25:27
  Uh I think um, and it depends on
• 25:30
  how everybody responds and is accustomed to um
• 25:34
  and this is also part of habituation, right?
• 25:38
  When we don't know about this, and it
• 25:40
  happens to us, I'm like, whoa, what's happening?
• 25:43
  We're thinking a lot about this.
• 25:44
  So this so sure, so body and mind
• 25:47
  are one, but there is also differentiation.
• 25:51
  For example, when we first encounter a new
• 25:54
  thing, there is more analytical thinking until it
• 25:56
  sinks in, and the body also gets accustomed
• 25:59
  to this.
• 26:03
  So when we are not used to something
• 26:05
  and it happens to us, we are in
• 26:08
  shock, and and we start thinking about this.
• 26:11
  We oh my goodness, I cannot sleep.
• 26:13
  There is this uh there can be uh,
• 26:17
  you know, thoughts of threat and and what's
• 26:20
  gonna happen and fear.
• 26:24
  But as we we adapt, right?
• 26:28
  We we have to adapt to survive.
• 26:30
  Um as we adapt and we learn how
• 26:33
  to deal with those situations, um we are
• 26:36
  better, hopefully.
• 26:39
  Hopefully, we will not so sure.
• 26:41
  Let's say a stressful argument or uh I
• 26:44
  to me I've always thought about it is
• 26:48
  I always think kind of this this hypothalamic,
• 26:51
  pituitary adrenal access, as well as activation of
• 26:54
  what we call the reticular activating system, the
• 26:57
  neuronal system and the paraspinal ganglia that actually
• 27:00
  also send uh you know nerve signals to
• 27:03
  the adrenals and to the vital organs.
• 27:07
  Um the way I've always thought about it
• 27:09
  is I think they overshoot.
• 27:10
  I think they overreact.
• 27:12
  So they're getting ready for a big fight,
• 27:14
  uh, like, oh, there's gonna be a big
• 27:16
  fight.
• 27:17
  Wait a minute, I'm not fighting, I'm just
• 27:19
  I'm just in court, you know, being deposed
• 27:21
  or something.
• 27:23
  And uh and and when they overshoot these
• 27:26
  circulating uh catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, cortisol, and
• 27:29
  don't forget it's not just cortisol, but it's
• 27:33
  the whole family of cortisol molecules that are
• 27:36
  released.
• 27:40
  Uh I tend to think the human body
• 27:42
  overshoots.
• 27:44
  And once these get out there, they're very
• 27:45
  hard to turn off.
• 27:48
  So I know when I get home and
• 27:49
  and let's say I've been through a stressful
• 27:50
  day in court or something else, I just
• 27:52
  can't turn it off and say, okay, I'm
• 27:53
  turning that off and going to sleep right
• 27:55
  now.
• 27:57
  So here's what I do.
• 28:00
  I I go and do aerial silk.
• 28:00
  I I go and do aerial silks.
• 28:03
  You do what?
• 28:03
  You do what?
• 28:04
  Aerial silk.
• 28:04
  Aerial silics.
• 28:05
  I do aerial arts.
• 28:05
  I do aerial arts.
• 28:07
  This is one way for me to turn
• 28:07
  This is one way for me to turn
• 28:08
  off my mind, my head.
• 28:08
  off my mind, my head.
• 28:11
  So I activate my body.
• 28:11
  So I activate my body.
• 28:13
  Oh, that's a good point.
• 28:13
  Oh, that's a good point.
• 28:14
  Yeah.
• 28:14
  Yeah.
• 28:14
  So I mean, yeah, I think you're right.
• 28:14
  So I mean, yeah, I think you're right.
• 28:16
  The the idea would be you know, go
• 28:16
  The idea would be, you know, go hit
• 28:17
  hit the gym, uh, lift weights, uh, go
• 28:18
  the gym, uh, lift weights, uh, go for
• 28:19
  for a, you know, go for a bike
• 28:20
  a, you know, go for a bike ride
• 28:21
  ride and really peddle hard or go run
• 28:22
  and really pedal hard or go run hard.
• 28:23
  hard.
• 28:25
  I think it's true.
• 28:25
  I think it's true.
• 28:26
  For some reason, uh exercise seems to be
• 28:26
  For some reason, uh, exercise seems to be
• 28:27
  an antidote.
• 28:28
  an antidote for that.
• 28:30
  It's a great um, it's a great comment.
• 28:32
  And I've always felt stress is more in
• 28:34
  the winter months when it's dark, and you
• 28:37
  get home from work and you just can't
• 28:39
  go exercise.
• 28:41
  It's kind of hard.
• 28:42
  But you know, when you can get outside
• 28:44
  in you know, Texas or Louisiana, we can
• 28:46
  get outside and it's a hot day and
• 28:48
  you perspire and you exercise and come back
• 28:49
  and go for a swim or take a
• 28:51
  shower.
• 28:53
  It's like, wow, you feel so much better.
• 28:55
  But but but that's true because there is
• 28:58
  a mind-body access or a body-mind access.
• 29:03
  The for sure, the tricky part is to
• 29:07
  be habituated into an active lifestyle, a healthy
• 29:12
  lifestyle, including diet, right?
• 29:18
  Healthy diet.
• 29:19
  And that's tricky, and many people exercise because
• 29:22
  they have to.
• 29:25
  Not because they love it, not because they
• 29:28
  like it, or they don't exercise, or they
• 29:31
  give up because they don't like it.
• 29:35
  So the question is, how can we how
• 29:39
  can we be habituated into an active lifestyle
• 29:44
  without this being a drudgery or dreadful?
• 29:49
  But this being like uh part of nature,
• 29:53
  part of our need, daily needs, like going
• 29:56
  to sleep, like being hydrated.
• 30:00
  So, how do we get to that point
• 30:02
  where we are habituated into this?
• 30:05
  Well, don't you think we used to have
• 30:08
  it in the days before automobiles and subways
• 30:10
  and people used to either walk long distances
• 30:13
  or you know, have much more obligatory physical
• 30:15
  activity.
• 30:18
  I I used to play as a kid
• 30:21
  outdoors, and there were bunch of kids outdoors
• 30:24
  playing, nobody was supervising, and now the kids
• 30:27
  are playing video games indoors and by the
• 30:30
  way, if a kid is unaccounted for, literally
• 30:32
  within a matter of hour or two, there's
• 30:35
  an amber alert.
• 30:38
  And I remember as a kid going outside
• 30:40
  and playing, me and my brothers, my mom
• 30:42
  would say, make sure you get home before
• 30:44
  it turns dark.
• 30:46
  And like we'd barely get home, you know,
• 30:48
  as the sun was setting.
• 30:50
  My parents had no idea where we were.
• 30:53
  No idea what they couldn't.
• 30:54
  They couldn't track us.
• 30:55
  I mean, the world is very different nowadays.
• 30:58
  The parents know where their kids are every
• 30:59
  second.
• 31:01
  At least when our kids were growing up,
• 31:03
  yeah, we knew where our kids were every
• 31:05
  second, and and and they're trackable.
• 31:08
  Um, but I do like your idea of
• 31:10
  of uh some of these cultural things.
• 31:12
  And I have noticed, I've been for sure.
• 31:14
  You can't help it when you go to
• 31:17
  uh Central and South America, where where you're
• 31:19
  right, they dance or they just seem to
• 31:22
  like to have a lot more fun, and
• 31:25
  fun is kind of built into their uh
• 31:27
  daily routine, so they're not necessarily formally exercising,
• 31:30
  but they are you know doing uh things.
• 31:33
  And you know, I had an inter a
• 31:35
  chance to interview John Kelly, who is the
• 31:37
  uh the founder of the American College of
• 31:39
  Lifestyle Medicine.
• 31:41
  And you you know what he taught me
• 31:43
  is he taught me, you know, it's also
• 31:44
  important in terms of this activity.
• 31:46
  He said to be outside.
• 31:48
  He said that human beings were made to
• 31:50
  be outside.
• 31:52
  And he said that everybody should be outside
• 31:55
  at least an hour, at least an hour.
• 31:58
  And he said, even if you get home
• 32:00
  late from work, he goes, go outside and
• 32:01
  walk around the block or walk around the
• 32:03
  neighborhood.
• 32:05
  He said the human body was meant to
• 32:06
  be outside.
• 32:07
  And if you go home, office, back to
• 32:10
  home, and it's just car and you're not
• 32:12
  outside.
• 32:15
  He he believes it that itself contributes to
• 32:17
  anxiety.
• 32:19
  Yeah, I completely agree.
• 32:22
  Wow.
• 32:23
  We so um about 20 10 years ago,
• 32:26
  less 2018, I published a paper criticizing this
• 32:30
  craziness of using social media and fitness apps
• 32:34
  and extra games to promote physical activity, very
• 32:38
  utilitarian, in front of a screen, measure, measure,
• 32:42
  measure how many steps, 10,000 steps.
• 32:46
  Did I make it?
• 32:48
  Oh, I did not, bad, bad, bad slap
• 32:50
  on the hand.
• 32:52
  So stop measuring, stop comparing.
• 32:58
  I mean, just enjoy, go for a walk
• 33:01
  outside, enjoy nature, go for a bike ride.
• 33:05
  We see, let's say we go to the
• 33:07
  park and we see kids playing.
• 33:09
  My kids, this is how they were raised,
• 33:11
  playing at the park all the time, all
• 33:12
  the time.
• 33:14
  So I would they would be there for
• 33:18
  hours climbing, chasing with other kids playing.
• 33:22
  Nobody's measuring anything.
• 33:25
  They they're acting, they're playing, they're having fun.
• 33:29
  It's not oh, a workout, oh, another, another
• 33:31
  set, another set, did I make it to
• 33:34
  three months?
• 33:37
  How fast?
• 33:38
  Let me measure my calories, let me did
• 33:40
  I lose weight.
• 33:42
  This is not this is not uh this
• 33:44
  is not how we promote exercise.
• 33:46
  This is not how we promote health or
• 33:47
  movement.
• 33:49
  This by doing this, we do exactly the
• 33:51
  opposite.
• 33:53
  We are hurting.
• 33:54
  Yeah, it does seem like we're in this
• 33:55
  era of hypermeasurement.
• 33:57
  Have you seen these people with these aura
• 33:59
  rings and these other rings that are measuring
• 34:01
  their sleep and all their parameters?
• 34:03
  What's your view on that?
• 34:06
  I I I don't use one.
• 34:08
  I I don't it to me that's that's
• 34:12
  uh I cannot comprehend this.
• 34:16
  That I will have this ring to tell
• 34:19
  me how to live my life.
• 34:21
  I would be all wired up to tell
• 34:23
  me when I need to sleep or when
• 34:24
  I need to drink water.
• 34:27
  Some people I listen, uh I don't have
• 34:29
  one of those either, but some people think
• 34:32
  all of that feedback helps them.
• 34:35
  But what you're saying is maybe it just
• 34:37
  it if it further increases anxiety.
• 34:39
  I mean, if you wake up and your
• 34:41
  ring says, wow, you got a bad night's
• 34:42
  sleep, then the whole day you'd be thinking,
• 34:44
  wow, I got a bad night's sleep.
• 34:46
  I don't feel too good.
• 34:47
  And and maybe it's uh it's a vicious
• 34:49
  uh cycle.
• 34:51
  Have you ever seen uh some of those
• 34:53
  videos that Jordan Peterson, the psychologist from Canada
• 34:55
  produces?
• 34:57
  I have not, no.
• 34:59
  It's really good.
• 35:00
  Good.
• 35:00
  Well, he has one where he has a
• 35:00
  Well, he has one where he has a
• 35:02
  little boy, and he's probably about eight years
• 35:02
  little boy, and he's probably about eight years
• 35:04
  old.
• 35:04
  old.
• 35:06
  And his father had made this kind of
• 35:06
  And his father had made this kind of
• 35:10
  jungle uh gym obstacle course in the backyard.
• 35:10
  jungle uh gym obstacle course in the backyard.
• 35:13
  So people are listening to this.
• 35:13
  So people are listening to this.
• 35:15
  I'll try to find the video and put
• 35:15
  I'll try to find the video and put
• 35:16
  it in this post.
• 35:16
  it in this post.
• 35:17
  And this kid is just going round and
• 35:17
  And this kid is just going round and
• 35:19
  round, and he's you know, he's going from
• 35:19
  round, and he's, you know, he's going from
• 35:21
  these rings and down a slide, and then
• 35:21
  these rings and down a slide, and then
• 35:22
  he's jumping.
• 35:22
  he's jumping.
• 35:24
  And you can tell that he's just really,
• 35:24
  And you can tell that he's just really,
• 35:27
  really, you know, getting after it.
• 35:27
  really, you know, getting after it.
• 35:30
  And Jordan Peterson says this little boy should
• 35:33
  be doing this right now.
• 35:36
  And if you take this little boy and
• 35:39
  you chain him into a desk in school
• 35:41
  for eight hours a day, and that would
• 35:44
  have you he said it's going counter to
• 35:47
  what kids need.
• 35:50
  And he's not saying that kids need to
• 35:52
  do that all day long, but he's making
• 35:55
  the point that that kids do need that
• 35:57
  physical outlet.
• 36:00
  And uh, and and there is a concern
• 36:02
  that there is um a move away from
• 36:05
  physical activity in the schools.
• 36:08
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 36:10
  Uh and couple this with putting the kids
• 36:13
  in front of a screen, a computer to
• 36:16
  learn all day long.
• 36:19
  Uh they don't write.
• 36:22
  Um cursive, what's that?
• 36:25
  Can we even write and print what does
• 36:28
  this do to creativity?
• 36:30
  What does this do to uh physical mental
• 36:33
  development?
• 36:35
  We know what it does.
• 36:37
  Uh we know that that's not good for
• 36:40
  their mental health, for their physical health, and
• 36:42
  that to link for their cognitive health.
• 36:45
  We know what happens when kids are active,
• 36:47
  when the more PE they have, the better
• 36:50
  they do at school, the better they perform
• 36:53
  academically.
• 36:56
  So, why think why take a white PE
• 36:59
  when this is it should be daily at
• 37:02
  least for an hour that they should be
• 37:04
  they should be physically active, they should be
• 37:07
  out outside playing, exercising, doing the why take
• 37:10
  this away at least when you know, where
• 37:13
  I was raised in Greece at the time,
• 37:16
  we were doing pee all the time.
• 37:19
  Yeah.
• 37:21
  Yeah, I grew up in Texas, and I
• 37:23
  remember even in the Texas heat, we'd have
• 37:25
  to go, you know, our coach used to
• 37:27
  say, cut a trail.
• 37:29
  It means we just had to go run
• 37:30
  or do exercises, and and uh then we
• 37:32
  have to come back and we'd have to
• 37:33
  shower up real quick and get back into
• 37:35
  class.
• 37:37
  But the you know, that big burst of
• 37:40
  activity, um, uh I think is is critical.
• 37:43
  I mean, what I know about this is
• 37:46
  that exercise is the king in reducing stress.
• 37:50
  Would you agree to that?
• 37:52
  Yes.
• 37:52
  And diet.
• 37:53
  It's the king.
• 37:54
  I mean, way better than drugs.
• 37:56
  Way better.
• 37:57
  Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 37:58
  Yeah, I agree.
• 37:59
  Exercise and diet, healthy diet, and and it's
• 38:02
  it's part of big becoming uh being uh
• 38:04
  part of the lifestyle.
• 38:07
  And again, you know, we we are scaring
• 38:10
  people when we say you got to work
• 38:12
  out, and we know that the the more
• 38:15
  fit the better.
• 38:17
  So I'm not gonna argue, but we are
• 38:20
  scaring people when we say you've got to
• 38:23
  work out and you've got to really exercise
• 38:26
  intensely and um vigorously, at least moderately, and
• 38:29
  that scares people away.
• 38:32
  Uh instead, we could say, hey, go outside,
• 38:35
  go for a walk, go for a bike
• 38:38
  ride, maybe take a yoga class.
• 38:41
  Go back to the Yeah, it's not that
• 38:43
  hard.
• 38:45
  I mean, uh tonight, those who are gonna
• 38:47
  go out and watch the uh hockey playoffs
• 38:50
  or the basketball playoffs, you know.
• 38:52
  Why not do that and do some yoga
• 38:54
  poses or do some squats or um or
• 38:56
  burpees?
• 38:58
  You know what burpees are?
• 39:01
  Yeah, yeah.
• 39:02
  Yeah, just just get on the floor, do
• 39:03
  a push-up, stand up, do a jumping jack,
• 39:05
  go back on the floor.
• 39:07
  You know, you can do 10 of those.
• 39:10
  And uh and I get short of breath.
• 39:12
  I wanted to ask you something though.
• 39:14
  Uh, another culture that's interesting to follow is
• 39:17
  have you ever been to Amsterdam?
• 39:21
  Amsterdam.
• 39:22
  I've been to Belgium, not Amsterdam.
• 39:24
  Well, I bet Belgium is similar, Brussels and
• 39:26
  but Amsterdam for sure.
• 39:28
  Have you ever seen how many people ride
• 39:30
  bikes?
• 39:32
  Oh, yeah.
• 39:33
  I I was one of those people when
• 39:35
  I was in Louvain, so I did part
• 39:38
  of my master's degree in Catholic University Louis
• 39:40
  in Belgium, and all I had was a
• 39:42
  bicycle.
• 39:45
  And did you have and you didn't have
• 39:46
  a car?
• 39:48
  No.
• 39:48
  And so you had to, you needed the
• 39:50
  bicycle to get where you're going, right?
• 39:52
  Yeah, and that was enough.
• 39:54
  Yeah.
• 39:54
  But my point is, whenever I go to
• 39:57
  Amsterdam, I'm somewhat envious that they you know,
• 40:00
  they put on a suit and tie, and
• 40:02
  even if it's raining, they go biking to
• 40:05
  work, and then they show up uh biking
• 40:08
  to work, or they bike to a subway.
• 40:10
  And I was over there recently, and at
• 40:12
  one of the subway stations, there was a
• 40:15
  place where people could lock up their bicycles,
• 40:17
  and there had to be like 10,000 bicycles
• 40:19
  locked up.
• 40:21
  I've never seen so many bicycles in my
• 40:22
  life.
• 40:23
  But you know, they ride the bicycle to
• 40:25
  the to the train and then they take
• 40:26
  the train wherever they're going, but they ride
• 40:28
  the bicycle back.
• 40:30
  And I've always thought these kind of biking
• 40:32
  societies, and China used to be like this.
• 40:36
  But the last time I went to China,
• 40:37
  I didn't see a single bicycle, it's gone
• 40:38
  now.
• 40:39
  The Chinese have stopped riding bicycles.
• 40:41
  The the Northern Europeans have uh stuck with
• 40:43
  it.
• 40:44
  I've always thought that that is envious.
• 40:47
  If somebody, if somebody could live either walking
• 40:50
  or biking distance from their job or from
• 40:53
  school, I think that would be so ideal.
• 40:57
  Like, do you have to drive to work
• 40:58
  or or can you walk or bike?
• 41:00
  Here in Button Rouge?
• 41:02
  Yeah.
• 41:02
  No, I have to drive.
• 41:04
  Yeah.
• 41:04
  See, I have to drive too.
• 41:06
  I'm in Dallas.
• 41:06
  I'm in my office right now.
• 41:08
  But uh this last weekend on Sunday, I
• 41:11
  went on a bike ride and I was
• 41:13
  trying to find the trail systems, and I
• 41:16
  was able to get up right near my
• 41:18
  office, right near my office in Dallas.
• 41:21
  Now it took me over an hour, hour,
• 41:22
  I think it was an hour and a
• 41:24
  half to get up near my office here,
• 41:25
  and then an hour and a half to
• 41:27
  get back.
• 41:28
  So it's not practical.
• 41:30
  But I th I just it did the
• 41:32
  cross, the thing, it did cross my mind.
• 41:35
  What if I was just able to bike
• 41:36
  to work?
• 41:37
  I I would just have automatic exercise every
• 41:38
  day.
• 41:40
  I I would never get caught in this
• 41:42
  uh uh scenario.
• 41:45
  So um we're gonna take a break right
• 41:46
  here.
• 41:48
  We've been talking to Dr.
• 41:49
  Maria Cosma, who is an associate professor at
• 41:51
  Louisiana State University in kinesiology, the the the
• 41:54
  study of the movement of the body, and
• 41:57
  we've been talking about mind body access.
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  News.
• 43:57
  This is a McCullough Report.
• 43:58
  And I'm Dr.
• 43:59
  Peter McCullough, your host and focal points uh
• 44:00
  Substack, Dr.
• 44:02
  Maria Cosma, Louisiana State University Kinesiology.
• 44:06
  She's one of the few guests I've had
• 44:08
  on the show more than once.
• 44:09
  So Maria, you've made a high bar for
• 44:12
  the McCullough report.
• 44:14
  Thanks so much.
• 44:16
  I'm very humbled.
• 44:18
  So let's get into some specifics of your
• 44:20
  most recent uh manuscript.
• 44:23
  So this high rate of mental illnesses and
• 44:25
  young people.
• 44:27
  I know I know a lot of your
• 44:29
  work actually focuses on students, young people.
• 44:32
  What do you think are the the real
• 44:34
  highlights of your work uh particularly in this
• 44:36
  area?
• 44:39
  I have done a lot of work uh
• 44:43
  in collaboration with performing arts like physical theater
• 44:47
  and silk's dance, and trying again to understand
• 44:51
  the connection between body and mind.
• 44:56
  And in short, the results that we have
• 44:59
  observed are phenomenal.
• 45:02
  Everybody in every single study, we would see
• 45:06
  that they loved this.
• 45:10
  The fact that they could perform, they could
• 45:14
  create a sequence of movements and perform before
• 45:18
  an audience, even amongst the each other or
• 45:22
  before their instructors.
• 45:27
  That not only was this did miracles for
• 45:30
  their mental health and their physical health, but
• 45:34
  mainly they loved it.
• 45:37
  They loved it and they wanted to continue
• 45:39
  and they continue with this.
• 45:41
  And I've done research in the community too
• 45:44
  with uh community members, uh women, um adult
• 45:48
  women in performing arts who also told me
• 45:51
  the same thing.
• 45:55
  We love it, we perform, we create.
• 45:59
  Uh it's not uh it's not boring.
• 46:02
  Movement exercise, not boring.
• 46:04
  We feel great.
• 46:05
  I personally, Peter, I I feel great, and
• 46:08
  it's been a while I perform, but um
• 46:11
  uh I'm still creating, I'm putting sequences together,
• 46:15
  and I'm staying active that way.
• 46:18
  Um I'll are you talking about dancing or
• 46:20
  yoga?
• 46:23
  Silks, airl practice, aerial sling.
• 46:26
  Uh I do somewhat dancing linked to that,
• 46:29
  but not necessarily.
• 46:32
  But poses, um being creative, putting movements together
• 46:37
  to create and share, express emotion.
• 46:43
  So there's a community, so it's not uh
• 46:46
  so recently um uh my wife and I
• 46:50
  in a group went to um a place
• 46:53
  in Dallas for line dancing.
• 46:56
  Have you ever heard about line dancing?
• 46:58
  Yes, I've seen it though.
• 47:00
  Yeah.
• 47:00
  So so you know, we we learned some
• 47:02
  of the basic moves of line dancing in
• 47:03
  a group.
• 47:05
  So we are in a line, and then
• 47:06
  we had to pay attention to the instructor
• 47:08
  of stepping this way and that way and
• 47:10
  keeping rhythm, and then we all had to
• 47:11
  do it together.
• 47:13
  And if you do it right, the whole
• 47:15
  line shifts like this way, and then you
• 47:17
  do it again, it shifts this way, and
• 47:18
  and you can see if you're off because
• 47:20
  you'll finish and you'll be facing the wrong
• 47:22
  way.
• 47:24
  And uh, you know, we went through this,
• 47:25
  and uh, and then she starts at a
• 47:27
  slower speed.
• 47:29
  So it's a country western song, but it's
• 47:31
  going slow until you learn, and then she
• 47:33
  brings it up to full speed, and we
• 47:35
  went through this uh these lessons.
• 47:37
  Uh, and then we went out to eat,
• 47:38
  you know, it's a social night, what have
• 47:39
  you.
• 47:41
  But the one thing my wife and I
• 47:44
  noticed is we were so tired uh when
• 47:48
  we went to bed, and we conked out.
• 47:51
  Both of us noticed this.
• 47:52
  My wife said, what was it about line
• 47:54
  dancing that made us so tired?
• 47:56
  We felt great, but we we definitely were
• 47:58
  physically exhausted.
• 48:00
  And I said it wasn't, I don't think
• 48:02
  it was the physical exertion of it's way
• 48:04
  different than lifting weights or biking or running
• 48:06
  or swimming.
• 48:08
  What was different is we were following an
• 48:10
  instruction to step this way and step that
• 48:11
  way and turn this way and turn that
• 48:13
  way.
• 48:15
  And it was the mental activity of you
• 48:17
  know, okay, I need to pay attention and
• 48:19
  step three steps this way and tap three
• 48:21
  times this way.
• 48:24
  It was the mental, it was the not
• 48:26
  there's a novelty of the mind body connection.
• 48:29
  And it was just something we both noticed.
• 48:31
  We were like, holy smokes.
• 48:33
  That this was something different that we you
• 48:36
  know, sadly, we just don't do.
• 48:39
  And um, I remember as a kid, I
• 48:42
  went to uh Baylor undergrad, and we used
• 48:44
  to go to a town just north of
• 48:46
  Waco, and we would do the country western
• 48:48
  dancing where you would all be in a
• 48:51
  line and and uh and and go through
• 48:53
  this.
• 48:55
  And uh, I just remember this idea of
• 48:58
  being in a group and having to be
• 49:00
  Be coordinated with your steps makes a giant
• 49:01
  coordinated with your steps makes a giant difference.
• 49:02
  difference.
• 49:05
  It really does.
• 49:05
  It really does.
• 49:06
  Yeah, and research has owned that it's key
• 49:06
  Yeah, and overall is uh research has shown
• 49:11
  to mental health.
• 49:11
  that it's key to mental health.
• 49:16
  And so this is not something new.
• 49:17
  So this is not something new.
• 49:19
  And uh part of it, I think is
• 49:19
  And part of it, I think is what
• 49:20
  is what you're saying.
• 49:20
  you're saying.
• 49:22
  The I don't know, they it's a different
• 49:22
  The I don't know, they it's a different
• 49:25
  sensation for the body.
• 49:25
  sensation for the body.
• 49:29
  Um
• 49:30
  Um it's it can be more creative, more
• 49:33
  free expression, in coordination with others, this mental
• 49:36
  body unison.
• 49:40
  Uh this I don't know, it's the music,
• 49:43
  it's um communal all that I think uh
• 49:46
  and and I've seen this in the research
• 49:48
  I've done.
• 49:51
  This is this is what comes is what
• 49:53
  the students will say.
• 49:55
  Um supportive setting, it works both my my
• 49:58
  mind and my body.
• 50:01
  I I think for I think of nothing
• 50:02
  else.
• 50:04
  It's not like I'm going to the gym
• 50:06
  and I'm thinking about my exams.
• 50:09
  Oh, good point.
• 50:10
  I can so it takes the mind away,
• 50:12
  and I have something for you.
• 50:15
  So last spring we created and implemented a
• 50:20
  holistic performative program for in the community for
• 50:26
  women with illers down loss syndrome.
• 50:32
  Really?
• 50:32
  Wow.
• 50:33
  Yeah.
• 50:33
  And they, you know, there's the issue with
• 50:38
  the connective tissue and collagen, and these people
• 50:42
  experience joint pain and joint uh hypermobility, skin
• 50:46
  hyperextensibility, they are prone to injury, they may
• 50:50
  face instability, proprioception issues, all kinds of problems.
• 50:54
  And for them, so we did this in
• 50:57
  a physical therapy setting where they uh they
• 50:59
  go to they're still going, I guess, for
• 51:02
  physical therapy, right?
• 51:05
  And but we did a different type of
• 51:06
  program.
• 51:08
  So, yes, some light stretching, yes, some uh
• 51:13
  using some uh dumbbells and medicine balls for
• 51:18
  um weight training, strengthening, but we also had
• 51:23
  this performative aspect, this holistic movement sequences.
• 51:28
  We were imagining that we were swimming, we
• 51:31
  were at the favorite beach, or we were
• 51:34
  experiencing the Sahara Desert, or we're in the
• 51:37
  in the jungle talking about tigers and whatnot,
• 51:41
  and they loved it and they told me
• 51:44
  it took their mind away from the pain,
• 51:47
  it took their mind away from the symptoms.
• 51:51
  They were able to um freely express to
• 51:54
  be more aware of their body, to learn
• 51:57
  from each other, because it was a it
• 52:00
  was group-based, and we had it was that
• 52:03
  that was just a pilot study, very limited
• 52:06
  funding.
• 52:09
  Um, we had like seven sessions, right?
• 52:12
  Seven weeks.
• 52:13
  Now, just to clarify, when you mean performative,
• 52:16
  was this dancing or no?
• 52:19
  It was we had music, but there was
• 52:22
  no, it was more now.
• 52:24
  We will experience the Sahara Desert.
• 52:28
  So we were on camels, and we were
• 52:30
  uh we were off the camels, and it
• 52:33
  was hot, and then it was cold, and
• 52:35
  what we we climbed somewhere to find a
• 52:37
  place to sleep.
• 52:39
  We were all so all those movements were
• 52:42
  we were performing in an imaginary world.
• 52:45
  Okay.
• 52:49
  We were not there, we were the you
• 52:52
  know, the physical therapy setting on mats, but
• 52:54
  we were imagining that we were somewhere else.
• 52:57
  Okay, so you are in like a physical
• 52:59
  therapy setting, like a physical therapy type of
• 53:01
  gym.
• 53:03
  Um, but you were able to create this
• 53:06
  imagery in such a way where where people
• 53:08
  felt as if you did get this performative
• 53:11
  aspect to it then.
• 53:14
  Right.
• 53:14
  And and our students, one from uh physical
• 53:17
  theater and one from kinesiology and myself, we
• 53:20
  we went there and did all that.
• 53:23
  And that paper actually is published in the
• 53:27
  International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health,
• 53:31
  where I I guess edit uh special uh
• 53:35
  section there, but so these people they love
• 53:39
  that, and they met over summer.
• 53:43
  We had to stop the program right before
• 53:46
  summer, and they met and they continued on
• 53:49
  their own, and they told me how they
• 53:53
  started creating in the house and those imaginary
• 53:56
  places and performing and and creating sequences, and
• 53:59
  how kinesiophobia, the fear of movement went away,
• 54:02
  and they were not paying attention to the
• 54:05
  pain, they were not anticipating the pain, they
• 54:08
  were anticipating the tiger to come after them
• 54:11
  and chase them.
• 54:15
  Or they were they were imagining that they
• 54:18
  were climbing up rocks, and you know, those
• 54:21
  activities were also targeted because of the proprioception
• 54:23
  issues that many of them have.
• 54:26
  Yeah, we had we had somebody with uh
• 54:30
  pots uh postular orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, and she
• 54:34
  had issues with standing and balance issues, so
• 54:38
  she performed the whole program on the floor.
• 54:42
  So I was there with her on the
• 54:44
  floor doing the activities.
• 54:47
  Wow.
• 54:48
  So it really opened up my mind uh
• 54:51
  to this idea of a performative aspect to
• 54:54
  an activity that you're performing something, you're not
• 54:57
  just going through the through the you know
• 55:00
  the drudgery of uh an exercise routine.
• 55:03
  You're actually performing something.
• 55:06
  And is there an element of this, Dr.
• 55:08
  Cosma, that is that is um existential, and
• 55:11
  what I mean by that is that you're
• 55:14
  actually doing something.
• 55:17
  You're running away from a lion, you're mounting
• 55:19
  a camel.
• 55:22
  I imagine just actually accomplishing something in your
• 55:26
  mind is part of this.
• 55:30
  Yeah, I think you have a point that
• 55:33
  uh we are doing something that maybe is
• 55:36
  meaningful.
• 55:39
  Um versus um being at the gym lifting
• 55:41
  weights, yeah.
• 55:43
  Uh you know, or going with a treadmill.
• 55:48
  Treadmill is torture.
• 55:49
  Do you do you run on a treadmill?
• 55:51
  Oh no.
• 55:52
  Oh, I don't I have to run outside.
• 55:54
  I I just find it I just find
• 55:55
  it torture to run in a treadmill.
• 55:58
  I will and and I would bike uh
• 56:00
  we said that I cannot bike to work,
• 56:00
  We said that I cannot bike to work,
• 56:02
  but I will bike to the park and
• 56:02
  but I will bike to the park and
• 56:04
  back and many other places.
• 56:04
  back and man at the place.
• 56:06
  That's an hour or more than an hour
• 56:06
  That's an hour or more than an hour,
• 56:07
  almost daily.
• 56:07
  almost daily.
• 56:08
  Now that the weather is nice, Peter, all
• 56:08
  Now that the weather is nice, Peter, all
• 56:10
  the time.
• 56:10
  the time.
• 56:12
  I cannot, I cannot be inside all day
• 56:12
  I cannot, I cannot be inside all day
• 56:14
  long in front of the computer and do
• 56:14
  long in front of the computer and do
• 56:15
  cognitive.
• 56:16
  cognitive work.
• 56:18
  I just I feel like the computer kind
• 56:18
  I feel like the computer kind of drains
• 56:19
  of drains my energy.
• 56:20
  my energy.
• 56:22
  Yes.
• 56:22
  Yes.
• 56:22
  And it just comes in.
• 56:22
  And it just comes in, and you know,
• 56:23
  And you know, I'm old enough to remember.
• 56:24
  I'm old enough to remember.
• 56:25
  I remember life as a doctor with no
• 56:26
  I remember life as a doctor with no
• 56:27
  computers.
• 56:27
  computers.
• 56:30
  None.
• 56:31
  And it was unbelievable.
• 56:33
  We're gonna have to leave it here, but
• 56:35
  we've learned so much.
• 56:36
  We've been talking to Dr.
• 56:37
  Maria Cosmo from Louisiana State University, uh associate
• 56:40
  professor in kinesiology about the mind body access.
• 56:44
  Check her out.
• 56:45
  She's extensively published on this.
• 56:47
  She's worked so hard.
• 56:48
  And you and I resonate on so many
• 56:50
  things.
• 56:51
  I unfortunately have to leave the office, drive,
• 56:54
  make a meeting, dinner meeting, whatever you, but
• 56:56
  I'm telling you right, tomorrow morning I am
• 56:58
  exercising before I get back to this office.
• 57:01
  Thank you so much for having me uh
• 57:03
  having you know joining me on the program.
• 57:06
  Thank you, Peter.
• 57:07
  Thank you.
• 57:07
  I really enjoy this.
• 57:09
  Thank you.
• 57:09
  It's an honor.
• 57:10
  Let's get real.
• 57:11
  Let's get loud on America at Loud Talk
• 57:12
  News.
• 57:14
  This is McCullough Report.
• 57:15
  And Focal Point Substeck, I'm Dr.
• 57:17
  Peter McCullough, your host,