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Title Tactics—Baking Up the Best Book Names · Reality Writes

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Reality Rights.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I am author Ellie Alexander.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is the podcast where we talk about all things book, bookish, and uh peel back the curtain on the writing and publishing process.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I am here with the tech guy.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I am the tech guy, and we're gonna give you all the secrets.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you'll be able to write a book with no problem.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, super easy alert, right?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like, where are you going?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Automatic, no, no, yeah, no, no, but we're we are gonna give it to you real.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's the real talk, right?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's something is hard, we're gonna tell you it's hard, but we're gonna show you how to get through it and you know, put in the work and and uh um and then from a reader perspective, we're going to give you all the dirty behind the scenes laundry.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Always so be sure to uh comment on the episodes and let us know what you think.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh give us ideas of what you want to hear about.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we get asked questions all the time, and we try to turn those questions into episodes, but um, you know, the the questions keep them coming.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh let's not keep them coming, keep them coming.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: Hit us up.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: But but but today we're talking about one of my very favorite subjects.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Which is which is titles.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Titles because you get asked so many questions about titles, and you know, I love this part of the writing process.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Probably one of my favorite parts is like helping brainstorm titles.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna actually, I I haven't even told you this.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but we're gonna do a little live testing while we're while we're uh taping this episode.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what does that mean?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're gonna we're we're gonna we're gonna use my friend chat um to uh to brainstorm some titles just to just to give people an idea of uh kind of what what tools are out there and the the capabilities and everything and how writers might be able to use that to uh to further their writing game when it you know up their up their title game a little bit.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Up your title game?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm I'm there for it.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was not anticipating this, but I'm I'm in.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think we should start with like why titles matter.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because they matter bigly.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um I from a from a non-writer perspective, I guess I would say I uh because I do read, uh I know you know, it's so I mean I try to, but um uh you know, the what's the saying?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Don't judge a book by its cover, but but everybody judges a book by its cover.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: So the same reason that people buy like wine or beer because the labels are cool, you know.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but no matter how cool the cover is, the design of the cover, if the title is boring or doesn't make sense or confuses you, you know, or whatever it is, um, you always think twice about that book, right?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna think twice about the that book.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think especially in the cozy mystery genre, the title informs you what you're going to read.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if you pick up a book that's titled Sticks and Scones or A Smoking Bun or A Batter of Life and Death, you have a fairly good idea what you're getting into.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And titles really, and this is important, darlings, if you are an aspiring um cozy mystery writer, titles will make or break your pitch if you're trying to land an agent or land a book contract.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you come in with like, I'm trying to think of an example for Meet Your Baker, the first book in this series, like, let's, hey, it was um murder.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Murder in Ashland.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've got nothing.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, something like that.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they're not gonna buy it.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, honestly, based on titles.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're doing um an initial book proposal, you need to come up with the first uh three books with strong, strong titles and alternative title ideas.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: So when I sent in the book proposal for Meet Your Baker, I had the first three books and five titles, five potential titles for each of them.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And all of them needed to be crafty, clever, honey, all the things, because that's how they know how to shelve these books.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these aren't getting shelved next to you know really dark like nonfiction because they know like what meet your baker?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, yeah.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, so it it that that's a good point.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so you know that um even the no matter what the cover design is, if you pick up a book titled Me, Your Baker or A Batter of Life and Death, a batter.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know it's not gonna be a gory serial killer true crime story, right?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah, exactly.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're supposed to be fun, right?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which is part of it.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: You need to have that lightness, and then uh the title really does help push the cover design too, because the title speaks to sort of the theme, or in this case, like whatever's baking at tour in the books.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's important too.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, yeah.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and the puns, the puns are just amazing.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like the the the the worse the puns are, the better the title is, I think.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it comes down to.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: And there have been some fantastic ones out there, yeah.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: There have been some fantastic ones.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's actually, that's a good um like next segment idea, which is this idea of sometimes, especially in the world of cozy's, you might see the same title pop up more than one time.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you might see me with a title like Till Death to Us Tart, and then there might be another cozy mystery author who has that same title.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's important to know that titles cannot be copyrighted.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: You that they're just not copyrightable.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is that a word?
• 6:32
  unknown: Okay.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: It is now.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, okay, I'm sure I think it is, but it, you know, we used it, so now it's that's copyrighted.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now it is.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: They legally cannot be copyrighted, would be another way to say that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: If copyrighted is not an actual word, which I'm doubting it is, but we'll go with it.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Copyrightable, yeah.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Copyrightable, yeah.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um so first and foremost, there's that.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's no there's nothing that you can do if you have a title that you love, someone else can use that title.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: The other piece of this is that the way, and we did an episode last week about like series writing, and we touched on the idea of um, you know, schedules and how far out in advance things are published in different paths, right?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: From indie publishing to traditional publishing.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I might submit a title a year and a half earlier because I'm submitting it with the manuscript, and then it takes the publishing house a year and a half or so to get that book to market.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: In that same time, another author might come in and have already published a book with that same title.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that happens quite often.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you just have to use discernment sometimes.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you're looking for a particular book by a particular author, make sure that you know who you're buying from.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe bonus, you'll end up with um like discovering a new author that you didn't know existed, too.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or wonder what the heck is going on because who are all these new characters and what uh what happened to the setting of the last three books in the series that you had just read.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: I I had a reader email me many years ago with that very feedback.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, all of your characters are so different.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what them on the fake shop.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I'm like, nope, nope, not the same.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you've you've actually had readers email you too to to or message you to ask why you changed your name too, because they they they're like, you know, yeah, and they're they're kind of accusatory too, because they're like, I don't understand why this would be a good thing for you.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it doesn't make any sense, it's just gonna confuse readers, and you're like, um that's not me.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's not my book.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Same, same title, different author, totally different person, not me.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: I feel bad for those readers, but at the same time, sometimes the tone that comes across is a little like okay, well, I know.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was thinking about like um even like The Pint of No Return, which is a book about beer.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's also an ice cream series that's right.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: So you might be getting two very which is that's a great series.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's my epic to let by the way.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you might oh I love the cover of that book too.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's not great.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, two very different kinds of pints, right?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally, yeah.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Ice cream or uh beer.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: But uh people die in both of them, so I guess uh you do get that.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this is not unique to the cozy mystery genre either.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is titles across the board.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, some things like murder is easy.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just like off the cuff, you know, like anything that you can think of from like big mystery to romance, like Love on the Rocks.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, these are these are not, I don't know if these are actual titles.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just tossing these out.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they are actually.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: But murder is easy, is Agatha Christie, right?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: It is exactly.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, like those kinds of title, any kind of title can be used multiple times.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, same thing goes for doing your discernment if you're looking for a particular book within the cozy genre.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: You might be looking for a book and the it's in a completely different genre, right?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're looking for something and you think you're getting a romance when in reality you're getting like true crime.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if the title doesn't match, if the author doesn't match, it's probably a good idea to do like a little, like scroll a little farther on um on the bookshop page.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's um yeah.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and if you start one of the books and they all of the characters have changed, chances are good that you got the wrong one.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Might be, might be a little a little clue there, a little, a little nugget.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe a big clue.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not who's to say.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other question I get asked so often is like, how do I come up with titles?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um it is it's been a family affair.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I like I'm yeah, for people just listening, not watching, I'm just celebrating because this is honestly my favorite part of the whole process is getting to brainstorm this.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um we've had many dinners, especially when Sky Guy was little, where we're brainstorming murder titles around the dinner table.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I know.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I came up with a new name for murder last night with my mom.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because there's sort of some key factors that need to happen.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: You need to have something that is a play on murder or crime, some sort of idiom in that way, as well as something that ties into the theme of the book.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you got really excited once I began writing the Sloan Craft series because he gives a lot of beer puns.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of beer puns.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was good at those.
• 11:56
  unknown: Yeah.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think three of those titles are for me.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: The three best ones for those that are wow.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'll let them be the judge, though.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to, I don't want to influence anyone's uh um, you know, opinions.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: So usually what I'll do is I'll start with like a theme of a book.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: I always have a working title while I'm writing a first draft, and that is not always.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: I would say maybe 65, 75% of the time that ends up being the final title, but it changes quite a bit, um, especially based on sort of if we're talking bake shop, like the food by the time I get to the end of it, um, or just like the sense of the book once I'm done.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I have multiple notebooks, I have notes on my notes app.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I will just usually like it's almost like, I don't know, like it's riffing where you're like, okay, butter off dead, blah, blah, blah, you know, and you just kind of go back and forth.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I still have lengthy lists of titles that I have not used.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um the other thing is, if you're going the traditional route, that the publishing house usually has the final say.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so sometimes I will submit a title that I really love and they'll have another idea.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's happened in the past.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sometimes I will be like, oh, you know, here's my working title.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not in love with it.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And my editor andor the editorial team will get to work and they will brainstorm.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, like Mocha She Wrote was my editor's title, and I absolutely love that.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um over on Patreon.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Some of my patrons have come up with titles.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, the last two titles for the bake shop, Sticks and Scones was Andrew's title, and Killing Me Souffle was Kat's title suggestion.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that's so fun to collaborate and give readers like a little give you darlings, a little synopsis of what the book's about, and then see like where does that take you?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that that's actually a good that that's a good point.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: It just made me think of a question.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, does the title, because you've got so you've got these key elements, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: You've got for for let's say the bake shop mystery in in particular, you've got um so the title has to do something to do with food and then something to do with like crime or murder, and it has to be a pun.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um but does the title have to match what's the like the theme of the book or the plot of the book?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I know.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I kind of think so.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit, you know, like um on thin icing, for example, which is book three in the series.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: That book is set up at Lake of the Woods.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's set it like wintertime, it's snowy, there's a fire in the lodge, they're like all warm and cozy.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so on thin icing makes so much sense because then the cover design got to be this like beautiful picture of the lodge and the snowy mountains.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and that wouldn't have worked as well with something like um a crime of passion fruit, which is right a book that Jules is out on the cruise ship on.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so I do think there there should be some level of the theme that comes through.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Those those two books in particular, though, kind of hit on all the marks because they not only do they touch on the theme, but they hit on seasonality in the books too.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because on thin icing, sure, you could be on thin ice in the middle of summer, but you know, for for like as far as the saying goes, but the fact that it was set at winter and everything, and then time of passion fruit.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: You think of passion fruit being tropical, they were in the tropics, like you know, it all it all fits, it all matches.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or like Till Death to Us Tart, it's a wedding.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's a wedding, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that falls in line.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: A cup of holiday fear is set at Christmas time.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Catch me if you candy is a Halloween book, you know.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I I I think it does.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there are some others that are a little more um, I don't know, general, like muffin but the truth.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but she's baking muffins, she's baking muffins, yeah.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: But but we've we've seen, but it is so okay, so it does matter.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it there's more to it than just saying like, and I'm again, because bake shop has been such a big part of our lives for a long time now.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking just in terms of that, it's food, it's crime, it's murder.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you can't just say um like cupcake dead.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: Right, exactly.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, now apologies to any writers out there who might have a book.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: But he probably has that title, cupcake dead.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I'm just like for me personally, I'm gonna look at that and go, yeah, I don't know about that one, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Although, like, so for my secret bookcase mysteries, um, we had a long discussion about that because originally I was sort of taking the path of like puns on bookstores or Agatha Christie and like you know, going all in with bookish things.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we went back and forth, my editor and I, and landed on the fact that yes, this series is still like it hits all the cozy notes, but it's it's a it's slightly darker.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you haven't read the series, darlings, like this, it's not gonna keep you up at night, but um, it has some slightly heavier themes.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And if you've read Agatha Christie, like the body count is high in her books, you know, she gets deemed like the queen of the cozies, but they're not so cozy, like they're they're pretty dark.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're pretty dark, and there's a lot of uh open real estate um offerings after an episode of one of her, you know, and in the English villages, because like when six people die in a village of like uh, you know, even a thousand, like that's that's huge.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's terrifying.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And she touches on darker themes too, you know.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so um, because that's really the inspiration of this series, and this series has a subplot running through it of Annie's best friend Scarlet, who was murdered in college.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is not a spoiler, darlings.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't read the series, like we learned this.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: I know we we learned this in book one.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's on the back cover of book one.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it's all right.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but we went back and forth on the idea of going pun or taking it more the direction of what would be more in the vein of an Agatha Christie title, which is how we landed.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So um, the body in the bookstore, a murder at the movies, death at the dinner party, a holiday homicide.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of it's different.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's still kind of this, there's murder in each of them.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Each of those titles speaks to what's happening in the book.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Book three that just came out this week, Death at the Dinner Party takes place at a dinner party.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, murder at the movies takes place at a movie opening, and so forth, right?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but though that title is not none of those titles are punny, and that was intended.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Which is interesting.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because even like within the genre, then there can be some points of differentiation.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is interesting.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so w uh I guess then once you so that that actually brings up another question.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you're if you're writing a series and you start out with a meet your baker or the body in the bookstore, best practice is to follow that theme for the rest of the books in the series, right?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not gonna go like the body in the bookstore and then do a pun on the second book, or you're not gonna say meet your baker, and then the next one is like dead in the kitchen, you know, like it's it's just not right.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: I I kind of want dead in the dead, it just that's that's my creativity at work right there.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think the theme is when you're when you're doing series writing, and you know, each of these series has its own series title as well.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, like The Bake Shop Mysteries, that's the series title.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: The secret bookcase mysteries is the series title.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: You want consistency so that readers then become familiar not only with the cover art and design, but kind of the tone of the title.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it would feel really out of left field if I had started with the body in the bookstore, a murder at the movie, and then a murder at the movies, and then death at the dinner party was like, you know, something super punny.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um right, right.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it would be confusing for readers.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't know, darlings.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do you agree?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: This topic is just keeps keeps uh generating questions for me.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like the another one that just popped into my head was like we we we did an episode on cozy mystery, the genre, cozy mystery genre, and and how it doesn't always get you know the respect it it deserves and and uh um is kind of overlooked a lot of the time is um but do you think the titles have anything to do with that?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, me or baker, um, you know, a batter of life and death, uh things like that.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like do it not does that not does that contribute to that at all, do you think?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure it does.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think um, you know, there's this sense then if if something's punny and kind of tongue in cheek and lighthearted, that then the content might be flippant or fluffy or all of those things, um, which is not necessarily at all true.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you're picking up a title beyond a reasonable stout, that was one of the tech guys' titles, by the way.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you're picking up that, you again.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: You probably know you get a sense of what the read is gonna be, but I don't I d I do think that there's a judgment base that may or may not be um legitimate when it comes to titles in the cozy.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's too bad.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: I like it like writing them is any less work.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um it just or takes any less creativity.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, not at all.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the titles sometimes take a long time too.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like oftentimes I will be uh stumped on a title for a long time.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, oh, then once you finally hit on it, it's like, yes, okay, there it is.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: I've been waiting for it.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Mr.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Baker cracks me up though, because uh I would say out of all of the titles that I've done, I have more readers confused by that one.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know what the pun is well, and that's another one that works so well as an introductory uh book to the series because it's like it works on so many different levels.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: But for those darlings out there that are listening, just replace the B and Baker with an M.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And there you go, me, your maker.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I was like, you know, you know me, I I love Easter eggs.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's my Taylor Swift in me.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I loved Meet Your Baker as a title for all those reasons.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like there are so many like layers and subtext that you can pull out of it.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember especially early on when I would go and do book talks, and people would be like, I don't get the pun though.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Cup of holiday fear is another one that I've seen come up a lot.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like, I don't uh it's like cheer, cup of holiday cheer.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Have a cup of holiday cheer.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, you know, I know they're not always gonna be obvious, I guess, but um to everyone.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but yeah, that's uh but I mean I kind of think that should be part of the fun that you know you you have to work out that first.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's your first little clue that you have to figure out before you start reading.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like totally.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go in murder solving mode here.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Start with the title, work your way back.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um there have been a bunch of titles that um didn't make the cut that I would send in.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one of the early ones for beer that I still like as a title was Dead on Draft.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um but they didn't love that for some reason.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: They thought it was confusing.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking Draft, Beer, but you know.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um there was a I don't I can't remember which bake shop it was, but I remember when you were writing it, you had one title in mind, but you weren't you weren't totally set on it.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um you got all the way through writing writing the book, and then I can't remember who came up with the title that you or maybe your editor at the time, but um but you came up with a perfect title for it, and then you had to like go back and like change whatever the main thing that Jules was was baking at the time.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that just happened in Sticks and Scones because that was Interest title.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah, there you go.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I did not have a single scone recipe in the book because that hadn't been the title, and I was like, oh my gosh, brilliant, love this title.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so then I frantically had to go back and not only bake some scones.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think we talked about this.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I had to bake scones, and then I also had to go back through the manuscript and find some spots for jewels to also be making scones.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember I remember you sweating that because it's like, okay, well, you've written the book, you've uh you've gone back, you've edited, you've done your layering, everything.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And now you have to go, oh geez, now I have to go back and find natural places to like insert.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, jewels be making a batch of scones for whatever reason and have it make sense.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, it'll work, but yeah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm intrigued.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: What is uh what is your like live plan and oh well, so I mean, there's like you're right, uh generative AI um is is right, like you know, it's it's it's having its moment, it's gonna continue to its moment is going to be forever now.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: But um so I was like, well, let's just see.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: Let's like let's look up.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm gonna type out real quick, just a real crappy little uh prompt here, but like okay, um to uh you know act as a cozy mystery author and create a list of uh titles that involve food, murder, uh, or crime and use puns to make them humorous.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: This will be interesting.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: So um any okay darlings who are writers, you you could copy this um prompt if it works.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see what what will it return?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: We need like a drum roll.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it already returned 10.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it is already like um, yeah.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I I have thought I I I do want to put together a course on this for for writers because I know this is a tool that I mean, it's just one of the tools in your toolbox, right?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it came up with some good ones, it came up with some really terrible ones, but here we go.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, it came up with one.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't you say butter off dead earlier?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's that's a title that I had as a working title that I never have used, but yeah, that's number 10 on the list.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Butter off dead.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Also, who didn't love that movie back in the day?
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um number nine, rolling in dough.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And but see, this is this is why, like, you know, this is why you got to work on your prompts and and why you can't rely on AI to do everything for you.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Or why you could use this as a starting point.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I often do with a brainstorm.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I start with something like this, and I'm like, oh, it's not quite that, but where can I go with that?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, or what else can I do with dough?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, keep going.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: There are no bad ideas, they're just ideas that are a lot better than others.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, number eight, murder is the icing on the cake.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: That is really long and again, not not a great one, but you know, you can maybe come, you know, something you you come up with.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that I could see getting to like on thin icing from that.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um this is funny.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how great it is, but meringue or wrong or meringue and wrong.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, all right, all right.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't even know what this piecing together the evidence.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um because you have a piece of pie.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: So again, this is not gonna do everything for you.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you batter believe it.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um a slice before dying.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, see, that's that seems like a good like Agatha-esque type.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh number three is Muffin to Lose.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um these are ranked in no particular order, by the way.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just going up from the bottom of the list because it numbered them.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: But um number two, Custard's Last Stand.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty funny.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, maybe not for a murder book, but you know, I don't know.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: A Western murder?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: A Western murder?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Who's writing a Western murder?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Come on.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it could, it could, it could be, it could be, it could be a big shop book coming up.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: We'll we'll have to see.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: But um, and then uh number one is Bread or Alive.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Bread or Alive.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's interesting.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing that I would do and still do is um song lyrics are often a great starting point.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like one of my favorite titles is Another One Bites the Crust.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I happen to be out on a walk and that song came on.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course like I can't.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: Great song.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's a great starting point.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I do like the idea of AI for things like this because I will go to I'll search idioms.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'll usually start with a a a word, an ingredient, something like batter.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, like how many ways can I use batter?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, you go from there.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, if this is a launching tool for a new darling who's working on titles, go for it, I say.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and I like again, for the purposes of this episode, I just that was a really quick and dirty prompt.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I could have like put so many more qualifiers in there.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: I could have told it, you know, I could have put limiters in as well and and like really dialed it in to get better or to get closer.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: But you saying idioms reminds me that like in the old days, back back in my day before uh before AI, um uh when I had all these bookmarks, uh, you know, and I had like the a like a crime dictionary website and an idiom website and everything.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and you would go, I'm writing the the Zip Base shop's gonna be about this, and I'd be like, Okay, you know, hold my beer.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go like, you know, like and I'd bounce back and forth between, you know, or among all these websites, and and I would come back with a list like that.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it was it was the it was roughly, I mean, it just it took me, you know, like two hours, but I'd come back with like 30 titles, and like you know, five of them were like, Oh, that's a good title.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And like 20 of them were like, uh, we maybe we could work in five of them were like, no, never.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, that so so well, and like beer is a little more limiting because like fear works in a lot of those places.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have fear, like beer and loathing.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the bake shop's a bit easier because you know, the you're open to a lot more ingredients or baking options.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a bunch of titles over the years that were too um that didn't they the publishing house was like, no, we want it, we want the sensory feel of the title to be something you really want to experience, you know.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't want it so clinical in terms of just like a baking term, which I think is interesting too.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, yeah.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the publishers uh sometimes edit the titles even when you do keep up with a good one.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: I remember um uh fudge and jury, because I came up with fudge jury and executioner, and they were like, Oh, executioner's too dark, we gotta get rid of that.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: So they just chopped up.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, it was too long, but you know, which made sense, and and fudge and jury actually works really well.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it then it gives you that sensory thing too, because you're exactly fudge.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Actually getting it.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: It is a book about murder, but executioner is too strong.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right, I know, totally.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get yeah.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like that.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's go but they they have to think of it, you know, it and like having designed several covers myself and thinking of it, I would much rather design a book titled Fudge and Jury than one titled Fudge, Jury and Executioner, because that's a lot more layout to consider in terms of copy length.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um the title needs to be big on the book, and you you know, you need to figure out a way to incorporate that into a design that makes it stand out without like taking over the image.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: So adding a huge word like executioner on there is gonna be really that's gonna make it difficult.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's definitely something to think like to consider when coming up with the title is think about how it it will have to be incorporated into the ultimate design of the cover.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and then the other thing to tag on to that is that a lot of times, um, especially in a long-running series like the Bake Shot Mysteries, is that they don't want the they don't want like a short and sweet like sticks and scones followed by something else that's short and sweet.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like sticks and scones and then killing me souffle.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that even like the length of the title is varied in between books, which is interesting.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or something like a crime of passion fruit that's really long, uh, fudge and jury is right before that.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you get this like rhythm to the titles.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so in that in that sense, you wouldn't have fudge and jury followed by sticks and scums.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Those are very similar, same same number of words, but also similar words, like it's this and that, you know.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's there's so much that goes into title creation that I never would have anticipated before writing.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and like the minutiae that the publishing house is thinking about at that level is fascinating to me.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, darlings.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is it fascinating to you?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Or here's here's uh something.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the the answer to which could be a good piece of advice for um the writers out there listening is um, you know, from a writing perspective, uh, when are you thinking about the title?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like when when in the process?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: Immediately, I think you should have a working title of some kind to give you an attachment to the story.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then um by the time you're either ready to pitch if you're going the traditional route, and or obviously publish if you're going the indie route, you should have a really solid title and you should get feedback on that title, just like you do the manuscript.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you do you need a professional editor's opinion?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily, but you should you should toss it out to friends and family, other readers, and and gauge their reaction.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then if they're like, I don't get that at all, or it is funny though.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: It is funny for for some of the some of the people at book talks, uh like I I will say you mentioned it earlier, but when they don't get the title and then you say that to see like the light go off, yeah, it's it's a really cool thing because they're just they get it and they're like they're so excited.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: But um uh okay, so reactions from others, that's a good one.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Should writers look and see what else is out there with that title right now?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to stay away from something if you come up with it you think is the greatest title ever for a cozy mystery, and you go and look, and there are already five other books with that same title?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I my preference is always to have an original title.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I think I think it sets you apart a little bit.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it I would gauge like I I as we talked about in the beginning, that you know, you can't copyright titles and that sometimes it happens that same titles come out at similar points in time, and that's not usually planned.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: So if something came out, well, like sticks and scones, Diana Mott Davidson, who is one of my all-time favorite writers, talked about another series I never wanted to end, bringing a little bit of that.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but she has sticks and scones, but that was used 15, 16 years ago.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, like I'm I'm fine with that.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a little homage to her too, because like her culinary books are what got me hooked on um this this genre.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: So there's that.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if something came out, you know, like a month earlier within the same year, I might hold on to that title for a little while and like tuck it away.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I would probably try to come up with something different and fresh and original.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: I just think, you know, try plus you can have fun.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a super fun process.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and usually you come up with other ideas that may or may not be used at a certain point in time.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I have found that darlings out there are also great at sending title ideas to ask that.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: Suggesting that, you know, like I always leave a book talk with like, ah, sorry, I was gonna mimic a little sticky note of title ideas.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: So um Yeah, I was just gonna ask that because you talked about how some of your patrons have come up with titles that you've actually ended up using and given them credit for and everything.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: And but you do get title suggestions from readers all the time.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that's something definitely that you enjoy.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: I love it, yeah.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's so fun to hear like what other people would come up with for titles, and um yeah, yeah, it's a creative process, so why not?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: And plus, people who use puns have been proven to be highly intelligent, so I'm sticking with it.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, really?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Did you just make that up?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: I did not.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, it was like a hard study.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, if they stuck.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'll find it and share it.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's great, awesome.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Doing some real important work there at Harvard.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: We are, we're doing important work in the world.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Bringing funny titles month by month.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh boy.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, I feel like this may be a good place to end it then, huh?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you think so?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, sorry, did you have to do that?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, we're we're better, we're butter off dead.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there it is.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, on that note.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's we're that's yeah, they were gonna close the book on titles.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're oh we are gonna close the book on titles for now.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: For now.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: For now, all right.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I would love to hear from the darlings.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of your favorite titles?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, please tell us in the comments because um, and I mean, just like across the board, it doesn't have to be puny, but if you have favorite punny, cozy titles, I want to hear.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's hear them.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: Good pun is always it's puns are second only to dad jokes.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh oh, that's true.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right for you.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we've really got to cut it off before you start on your dad jokes.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, fine.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just uh yeah, I was gonna say just one, but no, we'll get it up.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we'll do maybe we'll do an episode on dad jokes and their importance to literature.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's a Harvard study too.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: So on that note, until next time.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time.