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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Ransom Note and Non-Kidnapping Murder of JonBenet Ramsey · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Bodybuts.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: But Joseph Scott Morgan, it's really easy, Dave, for someone
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: like me, after all of these years, you know, to
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: pick up stones and start throwing them at the people
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: that worked this case all these many years ago. Okay,
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: And you know, I think that many times in the
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: world that we live in, it's so dominated about technology
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: that we find ourselves in right now, people will default too.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: They'll say, well, they didn't have access to the technology
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: that we have. As far as crime solving goes, technology
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: has nothing to do with this. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: and this is body back. This is I started working
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: in forensics back in the eighties, Dave. The same principles
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: still hold true that held true during that time period.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: There's certain things that we do at a base level
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: where where you have an expectation of security of the
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: scene because you don't want to lose you don't want
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: to lose anything that's a scene, and you don't want
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: to introduce or add something to the scene that should
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: not have been there.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Hey, Joe, I am so thankful that we have the
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: opportunity to dig into this story one last time. We're
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: talking about the Jean Bonne Ramsey case. Now, we did
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: talk about it during the Christmas holiday and the Netflix
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: documentary and what came out in that, but there were
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: a couple of things that we missed that I really
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: wanted to cover. And I'm just so thankful that you
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: agreed to do this, Joe, because right at the start,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I was really concerned about the scene of the crime
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: and what was done to it. My first thought was,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: why are there people in the house besides the police?
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: That was just number one right out of the gate
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: on the earliest coverage of this story, because in everything,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: all of us know you need to get everybody out
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: so you can just we're gonna be able to investigate properly.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Starting at square one, You've got all these people in
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: the house making food and everything else and wiping up
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: table calls. I mean, it's ridiculous what happened. And I'm
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: not even a cop, but the fact that police allowed
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: that to take place, shame on them, Shame on everybody involved.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: That should have never happened, but then it has. And
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: the first thing you do, because you've got people milling around,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: you need to give them something to do. Well, why
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: don't y'all take a good look around the house. Yeah,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: just go looking. And John Ramsey goes straight to a
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: place you would not normally get to in that house.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: You have to go downstairs and through, you know, to
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: this area they referred to as a wine cellar. But
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: it wasn't a wine cellar. It was just a you know,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: a downstairs area and they and he goes because of
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: her body, now if you.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Guess, and yeah, we have to keep in mind that
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: there's like another area adjacent to it that they call,
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: I think they called the train room. Yeah, and and
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: and that's where he actually and you know, Dave.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: They I'm so glad you said that, Joe I forgot
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: about the train room.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and and that plays into it, you know, which
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: we'll get to, uh with marks that are found in
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: her body. But you know that when this they'll passo
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: former l Passo County investigator that keep in mind this
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: person is different than the Bolder police department. This individual said, well,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: it's a lack of experience on the Bolder police departments,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: you know, part because they didn't know how to how
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: to handle this thing. But you've got this this one
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: investigator that is handling the case. And she, you know,
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: she famously went on air and made all of these
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: assations about the case and went on and on. And
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: she's in charge at the scene. You were talking about
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: John Ramsey. She looks at him as if I need
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: to get this guy out of my hair or whatever reason.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: She said this, You and your friend go search the
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: rest of the house. And you know, for me, when
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: somebody I hear somebody say that, you know, it's like
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: that commercial about you know, the little elderly women talk
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: about where she says, I unfriend you like that, and
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: they're talking about the Facebook and and the one lady says,
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: that's not how this works. That's not how any of
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: this works. And you're absolutely right. You do not ask
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: the father of a missing six year old while you're
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: sitting in the house as a police officer, to have
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: them go search the house. Now that that's not what
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: you do. If you don't have enough resources, there's other
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: post certified police officers in this county that you can
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: reach out to. Hey, we need help, send help now,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: and we need to be able to canvass the area.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: We need to be able to secure the scene. You're
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: going to rely on a dad and his friend to
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: go search the house. And as you mentioned, you know,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: when they make their way down into the basement of
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: this home, this labyrinth that you have to go through,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: you know, that's when you know John actually finds Jean
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Benet down in that area and by the by. As
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: a result of him finding her, what does he do, Well,
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: it's what you would, I think that most reasonable people
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: would think would a father would do. He picks his
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: child up, removes her from this scene. Now, if that
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: had been say a police officer, they may have walked over,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: checked for a pulse. They see that she's cyanotic or blue,
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: she might be cool to the touch. Guess what they're
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: not going to do with body. This is no longer
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: a rescue. This is no longer trying to do compressions
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: on her chest. This is leaving her in place. And
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: it's at that moment in time, if it had not
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: already gone off the rails, this is where the whole
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: thing kind of you know, really begins to take a
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: turn for the worst possible case scenario here, because now
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: you've got dad entering into this environment. Maybe in a
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: reactive moment, he grabs his daughter, his daughter's remains. He
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: thinks there's a chance that she can be saved, and
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: of course she's beyond beyond that at this point. Tom.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: But because for whatever reason, this detective directs him to
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: do this. Yeah, granted he found the body along with
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: his buddy found the body, but you know, more more
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: harm was done than certainly good David.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Well, Joe, all I'm thinking, okay, is you sent him
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: to go look for the child. In his mind's eye,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: if there was already a cover up, and they had
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: already staged the body, you know, in the basement to
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: make it look as if she had been murdered, sending
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: John Ramsey or anybody else non police oriented to go
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: down there. All they're thinking is I'm going to go
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: straight and I'm fixing this because now whatever they had
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: staged before that had to remain static. Huh. I can
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: get rid of all the evidence right now. I'm going
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: to rip off the duct tape. I'm going to undo
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: this Garrett around her neck. I mean, I'm evidence is
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: all gone, Every bit of it is totally wipe from
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: the crime scene. Now they have to try to piece
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: it back together to find out how was she strangled?
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: We got the rope, well, what was it was? Nylon
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: h there had been.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a woven it's a woven nylon rope.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was tied into a knot in a
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: certain way. But then the gear they was actually a
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: stick something used from Patsy Ramsey's hobby kit was used
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: to turn it and it broke.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a groat. Uh. Yeah, some people say garrot
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: garroat uh. And it's used as this this weapon, and
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: it is a weapon. Groats are known as weapons, that's
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: how they're defined. Did you know, and here's an interesting
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: little aside, did you know that the garrotting or groating
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: of individuals for tom I think it may have been
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: in France. I can't remember where specifically that this was
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: an execution method. Do you know that now they used
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: to do it. Yeah, they would. They would take an
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: individual and you can see wood carvings of these they're
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: out there, lithiographs or whatever they're called. I can't remember.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Where the individual is seated in a chair and bounds
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: like their hands are bound behind them. It's a straight
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: back chair in like a courtyard where the public education
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: execution would take place, and they would put a garrot
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: groat around the neck of the individual and turn it
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: from the back like this and slowly kill the person.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: In public views, It's an agonizing way to die because
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: with every turn of that thing.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: You.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: Are exerting more and more pressure. You know, you begin
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: to see the tongue balls, the eyes balls, they become cyanautic,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: all these things you know now. Years ago I worked
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: a series as kind of a I hate to say this,
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: diminishing diminishing the lives of the individuals were killed, but
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: it was like a short series of serial killings. It's
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: like six victims to this guy's count. And he was
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: killing prostitutes. And he used to corot after he had
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: drugged him. And he had multiple places where he would
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: reset the garrot and realign it. And his was made
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: out of wire, by the way, and he would take
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: it and he would turn it, and they would get
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: to the point of losing consciousness, he'd release it and
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: then he'd reinitiate the thing. So make no mistake when
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: you see, this is not like just grabbing a cord. Okay,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: this is not like just grabbing a cord where you're
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: going to wrap it around. So our piece of rope
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: or a coat hanger or a weapon as we say,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: a weapon of convenience. This is thought out. This is
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: something that was used in order to to elicit terror
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: upon the victim. I have no doubt in my mind
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: this was a sadistic killing. And the thing that's fascinating
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: about this, Dave, is that you know, John Ramsay said
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: in his statement that if I remember correctly and I
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: think not statement, this was in the interview when he
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: saw this thing, it was tied so tight he couldn't
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: he couldn't unbind it. And this is what is referred
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: to as a very complex knot. That's why that they
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: believed that whoever fixed this thing had experience with tie
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: knots and complex knots. That's that has always that's been
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: one of these things that has rung through And when
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: you see her autopsy pictures, you can see this this uh,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: the complexity of this thing, that ligature that's used in
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: this case, Given the complexity of this knot, I hope
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: that retrospectively, due care was taken with this thing, because
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: you know what it can offer up. It can offer
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: up DNA because for every turn and twist of that knot,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: if the individual is not gloved, they're touching multiple surfaces
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: on this thing as it's being constructed, and the paintbrush
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: stick thing is that goes without saying, obviously, but just
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: the surfaces of that knot, and when you think about
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: the complexity of it, that would require this thing to
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: be manipulated to a great degree. So I'm wondering if
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: due care was taken with that ligature itself.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: When I was hearing them talk about the ligature and
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: the rot I remember John Wayne Gacy doing the same thing,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: using it to turn and torture. You know that that
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: was the first one I'd actually heard of, and then
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: seeing this one, and all I could think of is
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: this is something that required time and preparation. So with
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: the time of preparation that went into if it was
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: somebody who just snuck in in the middle of the
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: night and was able to do this, you realize that
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: they have to know the building enough to know where
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: they can access the house in the middle of the night.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: They have to be able to find themselves walking around
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: the house without waking anybody up through this maze of places.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Then they have to be able to get her out
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: of her bed, take her downstairs, and kill her, and
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: then they've done they came in, and they've come into
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: the house and killed her in the middle of the night,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: and then bother to leave a ransom note. Why would
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: they leave a ransom note, Joe, if they've killed her
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: and left her behind. If you're going to leave a
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: ransom note, there would have to be the child would
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: have to be gone for it mean anything. And since
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: the child is already dead and left behind, why leave her?
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Why would anybody leave a ransom note? You have no ransom.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, the only thing I could really
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: think a brother was the fact that somebody was trying
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: to put somebody off scent if you will, yeah, you know,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: to try to misdirect you.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: See that.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, to try to yeah, to try to sell
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: people on the fact that she's elsewhere. But why would
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: you leave the body behind? That's what I don't I don't.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: I don't understand that. And you know two point three
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: relative to this reporter's assessment, you know, she she had
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: alluded to the fact that that this detective Bob Whitson,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: you know, it said that that he asked for handwriting
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: from both John and Patsy and which you know he
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: received back in uh, you know, from two notebook pads,
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: and you could see those on the documentary they showed
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: they demonstrated those pads. I'd never seen those before. So
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: I'm with her on this, you know, which was you know,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: keep keep in mind, this is this is prior to
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: the days of texting, you know, or prior to the
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: days of people sitting down. I mean, I still, like,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Lord knows, my precious wife, she she can't live without
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: an actual calendar. She has physically has a calendar. She
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: writes everything in each day. And so but you know,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: that's that's the way things have, you know, were always done.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: You had a notebook that you would write and enter
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: things into, and so that's where they get that would
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: be referred to. Again, I think we just mentioned this
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: in one of our actually one of our recent episodes.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: But you know, this is where it plays into getting
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: an exemplar of writing. So you have a real you
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: have a real time exis impl are or an example
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: of what an individual's writing looks like in the course
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: of day to day life. Here, you're not it's not
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: a dictated exemplar where you ask someone you dictate to
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: them what is written, you know, in a ransom note
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: and you dictate to them and say, write this statement down.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: This is a real life exemplar of how they normally write.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: So the idea is that you take and compare what
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: you see in the notebook to what to what you
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: have in this ransom note, and are there any similarities,
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: you know, relative to this. But when I've always been
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: fascinated by the fact that they believe that the notebook
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: that the note was written in is was property of
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: the of the Ramses, and that it was physically there
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: and it was actually discovered, I believe you know too,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: to have probably what's referred to as kind of a
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: pressure connection where if any of you, any of you
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: guys you know, know this, if you say, for instance,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: you've seen it in movies, it's an old movie trope
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: with somebody will write a note and they'll rip the
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: sheet out, and then you can take a pencil, you know,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: and scratch over the surface of it, and all of
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: a sudden, hidden writing writing begins to appear. You can
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: actually see the pressure through the page. That means that
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: somebody's leaning forward, pressing down with the writing device, and
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: they create, you know, these little creases in a note.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: And so that note would be taken away and Dave,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: this note is so my god, it's so extensive because
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't know about for you, but you know,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: you always think about you know, I have a I
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: will kill everybody here, provide this money and drop it
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: off at this address. That's not that's not what we're
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: talking about here. We're talking about something that's highly complex.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: You know, they're they're establishing who we are. We're part
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: of a foreign fact. Oh my god, foreign faction God
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: in Boulder, Colorado. I'm not saying that foreigner a university,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: but I'm just saying, out of all the people in
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: the world, you know, you're going to show up and yeah,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: I mean people have said that, you know John, you know,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: John's a very wealthy man. He's involved in software. You know,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming that you know, he's come across. But you know,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: there's very specific details. I think the thing that really,
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: you know, caught people's eye. Dave and I guess we're
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: number three or number four here, you know in this
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: reveal for her, for this reporter is the one hundred
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: and eighteen thousand dollars. You know why number Yeah, well
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: that that is an odd number. Why aren't you going
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: to ask for a quarter of a million dollars if
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: you're talking about you're talking about dude, that's a multimillionaire. Yea,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: all right? Why one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars? Why not?
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Why not a round figure like two hundred thousand, quarter
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: of a mill why not five hundred thousand? Why not
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: a million? You know, if you're going to dude, if
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: you're going to run the risk because kidnapping is a
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: federal offense and you will get life imprisonment for it.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: If dude, if you're going to roll the bones here man,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: go all in. Why one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars?
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Specific that? Yeah, exactly? But who knows that information?
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: There's something about the note I want to share with you.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I looked this up at the because I was curious
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: as to win was Patsy Ramsey born. And the reason
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: is in the early seventies, Patricia Hurst was kidnapped by
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: the Symbionese Liberation Army, yes, the SLA, and they kidnapped her,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: they held her, and eventually, after long in a period
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: of time, she had started to go along with them.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: She was on camera robbing a bank. Has the gun
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: in her hand, and they said she's full on participating
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: in the robbery. It was a big deal in the
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: early seventies, mid seventies. Well for Pats Ramsey being born
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six, she's going to be eighteen to
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: twenty years old when the whole Patricia thing's going on,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Patricia Hurst deal. So when I saw the note s
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Victory SBTC, SLA Simboni's Liberation Army SBTC, so any in
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: my brain, I'm thinking, why is she right? OGNI she
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: But why is the kidnapper specifically writing to John and
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: not both of them? The Ramseys are a couple, this
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: is their child. She's singling out with John because in
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: my mind, she's writing, I'm and she's dead and gone now.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: And I know that there are people who believe that whatever.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: I don't buy the note, Joe, the ransom note is
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: too long, too specific. One hundred and eighteen thousand dollars
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: That was his bonus that year, which, my goodness, I've
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: never seen a bonus tempercent in my life.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: And who has who has specific who has specific knowledge
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: of how much? Now I got to tell you, John
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Ramsey does not strike me as somebody that would go
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: out to a bar, yeah, and sit there and say, Hey,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: everybody drinks on me. I got one hundred and eighteen
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars bonus this year. Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: He seems like the kund he's a business guy. Yeah,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: all right, he seems like the kind of person he's
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: going to know more than he's revealing. And he's certainly
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: not going to tell you, you know, I mean, you know,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: revealing how much money you got for bonuses? Right up
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: there were revealing your bathroom habits. It's just certain things
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: that you don't talk about, you know. And who would
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: have access to that information? Well, obviously those that are
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: within his very inner circle, and they hadn't been in
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Boulder a long long time. Who in their inner circle
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: of friends would he have felt comfortable enough with with
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: sharing the fact that he got one hundred and eighteen
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars bonus. Well you step out of that circle
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: and you begin to think, well, who who might know
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: at work? Well, somebody's got to cut the check, right,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: So who at work would know that that he got
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars bonus? And listen there's
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: jealous people at work. The Lord knows you've encountered them.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: I've encountered and they wish you ill will would somebody
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: be willing to go to that length to do this
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: kind of horrible thing to this little kid because of
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: the fact that he got one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars?
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Is that that is money the motivation? Because if money
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: is the motivation, why are you going to leave the
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: kidnapped subject in the house because there was never any
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: intention to collect money.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Right because the child is left behind dead. The reason
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: you would pay the ransom is so your child has
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: returned to you alive, but you've left the child dead
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: in the house. There's no reason for you really think
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: they're going to just run down to the bank and
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: get one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars out and give
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: it to you without checking the house, without looking around
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: the house. But on top of that, Joe, think about this,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: who writes down this is actually in a note? A
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: lot of people don't catch on. Make sure that you
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: get home, you will put the money in a brown
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: paper bag. Well, what bring it? Who actually thinks like
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: that to write that down in a note, bank's on
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: it big enough to put the money in. It's like,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: this is so overly specific that you had the time
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: to write this out. If you're in a hurry. You
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: came to kidnap a child and you just accidentally killed her.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Now you're leaving her behind. Why are you bothering over
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: the note. The longer you're there, the more chances you
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: have to be caught the ransom. The reason for you
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: getting money is dead. Get out of the house. Now,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: why are you leaving a note?
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: I don't understand how much space can one hundred and
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: eighteen thousand dollars take up if you're getting denominations of
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: one hundred dollars bills. Yeah, I can't imagine it's going
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: to be. You know, it's not like you're walking, you know,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: walking down the street like Scrooge McDuck and you've got
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: gold coins falling out of your wheelbarrow, your gold wheelbar
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: It's not like that. It's just the whole thing, you know,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: kind of you know, stinks to high heaven. Yeah, but
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: then you you know, when you consider all of that.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: I will call you between eight am and ten am tomorrow,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: the delivery will be exhausting. I advise you to get
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: rest be rested, John, I mean Joe. Really it says
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that in this note the delivery will be exhausting, so
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I advise you to be rested. The whole thing just reeks,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: and it's so long and so convoluted. This makes no sense.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: And if who has the again I use the term
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: intestinal fortitude because you have to have nervous Still, let's
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: just let's just say, all right, for grins and giggles,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: that we are a malevolent individual that shows up at
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: this house, okay, and you have the intestinal fortitude to
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: take a notepad that allegedly belonged in the house and
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: sit down where people sit down to consume breakfast. I
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: guess maybe in that location, and you sit there and
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: you take the time. You know, do this person show
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: up with their own pen or do they borrow this
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: as well? And they sit there and construct this note,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: and then we'll take it off, and we're going to
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: take it and put it here on the tread of
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: the staircase immediately, you know, on the other side of
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: the wall here, who has that? That requires nerves of steel?
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Because I don't care how big a house is. If
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: there's something going on within a house at night, I'll
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: give you for instance, my wife hears everything. I mean
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: she does. I don't wake up for thunder. You know,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: why did you hear that storm last night? Hunt? No,
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't. Oh my god, I was up all night.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: I started to wake you up. Well why didn't you?
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: I couldn't. You were asleep. I can get you to
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: wake up. You know, you know what I'm saying. You know,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I guess you know. You could say, well, yeah, they're
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: isolated in the house. They're bettering the master is upstairs.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: They're not going to hear this. But it would take
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: nerves of still to sit down there and write this
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: note and then deposit this thing on the staircase, which
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: for me is is quite quite interesting, and just you know,
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: maybe we've beat this dead horse. I don't know, but
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: it's just the fact that the length of the thing
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: and the specificity of it, and then this kind of
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: drawn out narrative you know, that runs through it, identifying.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Your southern good sense.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Come on, I know, I mean, what does that even mean?
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Why does somebody put that in there?
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: I know it's it's it's bizarre. I mean, now, I
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: guess you could say they are aware that he has
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: recently relocated to Colorado, and they're they're trying to hone
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: in on that specific detail of his life. Maybe it's
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: an indication that they know about him, they know where
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: he comes from. Okay, maybe it's alluding to that. I
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: have no idea, but for me, uh, this individual that
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: wrote this first off had to have nerves of steel,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: and then secondly, they also have to have pretty substantial
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: constitution as well, because they're going to go downstairs assuming
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: that the same person that wrote the note had something
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: to do with Jean Benet's death, which, of course I
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: believe that you're going to torture and yes, I will
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: use that term torture and murder by not only strangling, uh,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: this child, but beating her to the point where her
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: skull fractures. Dave, and that's another point that that the
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: author of this article from Busfeed, you know, made a
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: point of that, you know, uh, that it was at
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: that point in time that they they realized because you know,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: for the longest time they had just said that she
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: had been strangled. No one ever said anything about this insult.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: The show, Yeah that she had sustained well, yeah, I knew.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Well it was famously it was famously brought about in
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: that the infamous CBS show, you know, because they did
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: these demonstrations doctor Werner Spitz, who and we we remember
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: we actually did a memoriam of episode of Bodybacks when,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: you know, because Verner Spitz died, him and him and
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Cyril died pretty close to one another, and I talked
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: about it. Verner Spitz is he's one of the godfathers.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: He preceded doctor Weck. He's even in an older generation.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: And you know, he wrote the definitive text on on forensics,
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: on forensic pathology, and you know, they talked about the
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: utilization of potentially I think that their conclusion was a
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: flashlight or a cylindrical like object in order to generate
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: this kind of And what was really ghastly about that
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: show is that they were attempting to say that Joan
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Manet's brother had something to do with this. And I
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: think probably the most the most repugnant part of that
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: program was the fact that they brought in a nine
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: year old child, I know, to do the demonstration where
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: they had a mocked up skull and they and you
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: can go on line and see it, and it was
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: it was really in poor taste. As far as I'm concerned,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: this is nothing I would ever want to involve myself in.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Where you know this, You've got this little boy, an actor,
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I guess, that's raining down blows on this facsimile of
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: a skull that actually is in jail so that it
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: mimics tissue, and he's driving this thing down onto you know,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: onto the the you know, the pretend body here.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: It seems like something you would see on hard copy
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: in the late eighties, you know.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was in really poor taste, very poor taste.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I can't you know, I can't imagine, you know, being
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: a parent and watching this thing and know what's what
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: they're they're angling toward towards this idea that the nine
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: year old brother did this, and of course they you know,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: CBS wound up paying the piper for that, and you know,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: I often thought, I often thought that this is just
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: my musing here. I really thought that maybe CBS was
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: going all in on this idea that the family had
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: something to do with this, and so they thought, yeah,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: we're going to run the risk of getting sued if
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: they sue us, we're not going to settle, which they
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: wound up doing. We're not going to settle, and we're
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: going to wind up having depositions. And that's really the
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: way I had looked at this early on. Of course,
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: they wound up wound up settling, you know, this particular case,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: and it was just the number was eye popping, you know,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: just absolutely eye popping. And I don't know what they
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: eventually settled for. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this his
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: body bags