Latest / The Twin History Podcast / The American Civil War: Part 5: 'Treason doth never prosper'. Appomattox, Reconstruction and The Lost Cause Theory.

Transcript

The American Civil War: Part 5: 'Treason doth never prosper'. Appomattox, Reconstruction and The Lost Cause Theory. · The Twin History Podcast

• 0:01
  The Twin History Podcast brings together 2 Black Scotsman, 2
• 0:06
  twins, 1 historian and one storyteller to explore the
• 0:10
  moments that shaped our world. The show features Joe McCann,
• 0:15
  the eldest twin and resident storyteller, the one always
• 0:20
  asking why any of this shit actually matters, alongside
• 0:25
  Johnny McCann, 13 minutes younger, and the historian.
• 0:29
  Equipped with the dates, the fact and the receipt, Every week
• 0:34
  they invite listeners to pull up a chair as they unpack some of
• 0:38
  history's greatest tales, The ones you think you know, the
• 0:44
  ones you've never heard, and the ones that hit different when
• 0:49
  told by them. Enjoy.
• 1:25
  This is a twin history podcast and we are back and it's what
• 1:29
  part Johnny of us look at the American Civil War.
• 1:32
  It's part five of our look at the American Civil War.
• 1:35
  OK, excellent. So we've covered quite a few
• 1:38
  topics and we've got two more episodes.
• 1:41
  You'll be grateful to know, dear listeners.
• 1:44
  Yes, two more episodes and and we'll go out.
• 1:47
  With a bang, yeah, but what? It's better to burn out than to
• 1:51
  fade away. Who said that?
• 1:54
  Roy Batty and Labour. Yeah, maybe Roy Batty.
• 1:59
  Neil Young dude. OK.
• 2:00
  Sick. Also, I think Kurt Cobain.
• 2:04
  That was on the suicide note, was it?
• 2:07
  Yeah, I'm sure it was. Well, that.
• 2:09
  That's a jury subject. The suicide note that was
• 2:12
  doctored by Courtney Love after she shotgunned them down.
• 2:17
  Apparently, the authorities are looking more into.
• 2:20
  No, it was definitely suicide. There's I remember the
• 2:25
  documentary Kurt and Courtney by Nick Brimfield.
• 2:28
  And yeah, I remember. That.
• 2:31
  He you, if you watch that Kurt Cobain did not was not murdered.
• 2:37
  Yeah, I know, but that documentary came out 24 years
• 2:41
  ago, so maybe new evidence has come to light.
• 2:43
  I don't think new evidence has came to light.
• 2:45
  We've just got more of a conspiratorial mindset these
• 2:48
  days. Conspiratorial mindset.
• 2:51
  You're right. We do.
• 2:52
  I saw the other day that the mission to the moon, what was
• 2:56
  it? Is it Armitage?
• 2:57
  Three Artemus 2 Christ, it's not a movie.
• 3:04
  It's not a movie, bro. So Artemis 2, Artemis 2, you're
• 3:11
  going to be a historian. You see, it's not a historic.
• 3:14
  It is. It's not.
• 3:16
  So we talked about for for years on it.
• 3:18
  I obviously wasn't paying attention but people were saying
• 3:22
  that is AI and it didn't actually happen.
• 3:24
  And of course look at the NASA writing on the craft when it
• 3:28
  splashed down. Why would that be visible after
• 3:32
  it went through re entry? Just absolutely nonsense.
• 3:35
  Are you arcing not? Is that pretty good arcing
• 3:37
  saying? It goes into your conspiratorial
• 3:40
  mindsets that idiots are arguing that online it was fake.
• 3:44
  People recently have said the pilot who was rescued from Iran,
• 3:48
  that was fake apparently as well.
• 3:50
  Even though the Iranians were looking for him, they were
• 3:53
  actively looking for him. So unless they're in on it as
• 3:57
  well, it wasn't fake. And yes.
• 3:59
  I think they were in on it, yeah.
• 4:01
  He might not have been there for the reasons the US military said
• 4:04
  he was there, but there was definitely a pilot who crashed
• 4:08
  landed in those mountains. And the Iranians were looking
• 4:11
  for him because their nerves, their state news channel had men
• 4:16
  in the mountain saying we'll definitely find them because
• 4:19
  there was a reward. So unless they're actors.
• 4:21
  Did his plane crash in 1865 in Virginia or is otherwise why are
• 4:27
  we talking about him? The the one thing about the
• 4:32
  conspiracy theories is you can't.
• 4:34
  You're never going to win an argument with them.
• 4:36
  So these people believe that the US didn't go to the moon?
• 4:41
  Yeah, when I was a kid, I believed didn't go to the moon.
• 4:44
  But obviously once you're past age of 12, you know, I always
• 4:48
  believed. But I remember when you went and
• 4:51
  confronted Buzz Aldrin and he smacked you in the face, and
• 4:54
  that was ritually deserved because you said he was a liar
• 4:58
  and a fraud. But with that, they said the
• 5:01
  second. Comes right after first.
• 5:03
  OK, it's not The Simpsons, but I think with I mean my wife was
• 5:07
  saying she enjoys. Lessons for the podcast.
• 5:10
  But she's like, why? Why do you guys always take 10
• 5:13
  minutes to get to the topic? But it's the style we do well.
• 5:16
  Yeah, we're going to like to chat.
• 5:18
  We're like to have a conversation without getting
• 5:21
  into the before getting into the boring history.
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  I'm joking, I'm joking. Yeah, I don't think any the our
• 5:29
  audience doesn't hopefully not those are still with us.
• 5:32
  But I'll close on that by saying that they said obviously the
• 5:35
  evidence of the US being on the moon is fake too.
• 5:38
  So you're not you're never going to win.
• 5:40
  They're the. Buggy on the flag.
• 5:42
  Yeah, you're never going to. Beat these people.
• 5:45
  You can see it like from space or you can see it.
• 5:48
  I'm not in space. From air, unless the what they
• 5:54
  produced, the evidence they produced has got or but what
• 5:56
  would be the point? Of course, at this stage, what
• 5:59
  would be the? Point What about Black Knight
• 6:01
  Satellite? Do we believe in that?
• 6:04
  I don't even know what that is. OK, wouldn't we get back?
• 6:07
  We shall move on. It may have been up there during
• 6:10
  the Civil War, The Black Knight satellite, for all we know it.
• 6:13
  Could have been, yeah. But anyway, let's move on.
• 6:17
  I'll do an episode on the Black Knight satellite.
• 6:20
  I'm certainly doing an episode on the Lost cosmonauts at some
• 6:23
  point. Yeah, that's OK.
• 6:25
  That'll be a solo episode. What are we doing today?
• 6:28
  We're talking about the American Civil War Part 5.
• 6:31
  What are you doing specifically? Today.
• 6:33
  We'll get into it, but we'll talk a little bit about the
• 6:35
  European powers. But I would like to start the
• 6:38
  episode by saying happy birthday to my son Atlas.
• 6:41
  He is 2 today, two years old. Yeah, he's a lovely wee boy.
• 6:45
  He's a beautiful wee boy. Very smiley, very smiling.
• 6:50
  So gorgeous. Happy birthday, Atlas.
• 6:51
  Happy birthday Atlas. I adore you a little dude.
• 6:54
  I take care of my. Kids, you're supposed.
• 6:56
  To get dumb motherfucker. OK, let's get so today we're.
• 7:01
  So we're just doing it to appease your wife?
• 7:03
  Is that why I'm here? What the hell are you talking
• 7:06
  about? That I need to skip my boring,
• 7:09
  mindless conversation to? No, I don't.
• 7:11
  I don't. Say you need to skip SO but you
• 7:14
  got can may I speak? Well, no, I'm I don't want to
• 7:17
  hear from you at all in this episode, so today.
• 7:20
  We're going to look into the European power, we're going to
• 7:23
  look at the Savander Appomattox, we're going to look at the Lost
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  Cause period, and we're going to look at reconstruction.
• 7:30
  So it's a packed episode, but hopefully an informative and
• 7:34
  very interesting episode. OK, shall we get into it then,
• 7:39
  Johnny? Am I asking questions here?
• 7:42
  Enter SO should we talk about Napoleon?
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  I thought he was dead at this point.
• 7:46
  It wasn't Napoleon, It was Napoleon the Ford.
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  Not the guy from the all the movies, no.
• 7:53
  It was Napoleon the. Ford OK, so can we talk about
• 7:56
  him then? So what role did Napoleon Ford
• 8:01
  of France, what idea it wrote these questions, John.
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  There's you. OK, what role did Napoleon Ford
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  play in attempting to exploit the Civil War for French
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  imperial ambitions in Mexico? Why are we even asking about
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  Mexico? What are we talking about for?
• 8:19
  So Napoleon saw this as a great opportunity to expand the French
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  Empire into the Americas. So from 1862 to 1867.
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  So from So France plays a proxy in Mexico.
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  So they deposed the Mexican president at the time and
• 8:41
  replaced on with Archduke Maximilian of Austria and they
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  made him president of Mexico at that time.
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  So they were looking the Americans there distracted by
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  their own civil war. So Napoleon's looking to expand
• 8:59
  the French Empire. So over 300,000 Mexicans
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  perished. Maximilian he has killed later
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  and the Mexican president who was in place when the French
• 9:14
  entered Mexico. Was reinstated into office.
• 9:19
  OK, so the Americans are looking one way and the French take
• 9:23
  advantage of the fact that Americans are tied up in this
• 9:26
  civil war. Yeah, the Americans were enraged
• 9:29
  by this. They cited the Monroe Doctrine.
• 9:34
  What was the Monroe Doctrine? It's absolutely absurd when you
• 9:38
  consider the history of the Americans.
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  Who'll be the judge of that? Let's go the Monroe Doctrine.
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  Just stated that no European power should have imperialistic
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  designs or imperialistic holdings in the Americas.
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  Why is that? Absurd.
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  There have been European empires in Mexico and in the Americas
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  since the 16th century. So this goes back to the 1500s
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  when Spain basically invaded the Americas.
• 10:10
  And as I said, way back on one of our episodes, I can't
• 10:14
  remember which one, they, Spain and Portugal provided.
• 10:18
  Portugal, more so in Asia and parts of Africa, provided the
• 10:22
  blueprint that other European powers used when it came to
• 10:27
  their own imperialistic holdings.
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  So Spain committed a mass genocide in Mexico and in Peru
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  and in Americas in general. So then you've got the 1700s
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  when we get the floods of white Europeans coming to the Americas
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  and then we see the Native Americans wiped out through
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  warfare, disease. Great.
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  So the Monroe Doctrine, it is basically isn't worth the papers
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  written on because if you're saying there can't be
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  imperialistic European holdings in the US or in the Americas
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  from this point on though, from this point on.
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  But they're already there and the American West hasn't been
• 11:13
  fully realised at this point. So there's still a lot of
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  disputes between Native Americans and the federal
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  government. Should we not afford the
• 11:22
  Americans for coming to their Mexican brother's aid?
• 11:26
  They didn't come to the aid, but when was it written?
• 11:29
  Then it was. 1823 So it would have been under President James
• 11:33
  Monroe, and he just stated that there would be no more.
• 11:38
  And again, it is completely paradoxical, but there'd be no
• 11:43
  more imperialistic expansion of the Americas by Europeans.
• 11:48
  So did Lincoln ride down to Mexico on a horse and wave that
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  paper around in the streets of a Tijuana?
• 11:55
  He did. And then the European powers
• 11:57
  said, OK, let's, let's get out of here, guys.
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  That's what happened. So what happened then?
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  What did they do? What did the French do?
• 12:05
  They eventually had to leave my school.
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  I told you that. OK, All right.
• 12:12
  Should we talk about a few more of the European powers?
• 12:14
  Yes, if you have any more questions.
• 12:17
  Yeah, I have a couple more on them.
• 12:19
  OK, so why did Britain and France seriously consider
• 12:24
  recognising the Confederacy and what ultimately prevented them
• 12:30
  from doing so? That's a good question.
• 12:32
  So in 1861 we had the Trent affair, this was November 1861.
• 12:39
  Have we discussed the Trent affair?
• 12:41
  We've never discussed it. I think we might mention that on
• 12:43
  an earlier. OK, Tell our listeners what the
• 12:46
  Trent Affair is or was before the Trent Affair.
• 12:49
  Secretary of State, Sure, in a European state that if they
• 12:53
  recognise the Confederacy, that in itself would be a declaration
• 12:56
  of war against the United States of America, federal United
• 13:01
  States of America, the Union, OK.
• 13:05
  So Britain and France, they, they consider recognising the
• 13:09
  Confederacy. Can you tell us why?
• 13:11
  Even as late as winter 1863, Lord Parmenster, the Prime
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  Minister he considered. Yeah.
• 13:19
  Thanks for letting us know. Yeah, he considered recognising
• 13:24
  the Confederacy, but it was never really debating at cabinet
• 13:28
  level. They never really got into the
• 13:31
  nuts and bolts. But Palmerston, and that's going
• 13:36
  to be in a couple of years. Previously he wrote that it is
• 13:40
  in the highest degree likely that the North will not be able
• 13:43
  to subdue the South and it is no doubt certain that the Sovereign
• 13:47
  Union is established as an independent state.
• 13:50
  It would afford a valuable and extensive market for British
• 13:54
  manufacturers. So you have to remember that
• 13:56
  time. The cotton industry is a mass of
• 14:03
  multi dollar enterprise. More than multi dollars, I bet
• 14:07
  they said multi billion dollars. We're talking in the hundreds
• 14:10
  here. We're talking in the millions
• 14:12
  and billions. We're talk closer to billions.
• 14:15
  But so Parmesan was an idiot then is what you're saying?
• 14:18
  Why? Why was he an idea?
• 14:20
  Because the South could never win the war.
• 14:22
  No, obviously at the start of the war people were unsure about
• 14:26
  how it would go, but Parmesan felt that because Britain was
• 14:33
  getting a large amount of cotton from the South that they didn't
• 14:39
  want to upset that relationship. But at no point, as I said, did
• 14:45
  they come seriously close. So in the end they did the
• 14:48
  correct thing by staying out, by staying neutral and seeing which
• 14:52
  side won. They stayed out, but we had the
• 14:56
  Trent Fair in 18. 61 November. Are you going to tell us what it
• 15:00
  is? I've already asked SO.
• 15:02
  You've already asked, did I not say?
• 15:03
  No, please tell us. So to a naval officers.
• 15:08
  Confederate officers went aboard the Trent, the British ship, and
• 15:13
  under maritime law they should have been given rites of
• 15:18
  passage. They shouldn't be detained, but
• 15:20
  the Union detained them. They went aboard the British
• 15:23
  ship and detained these men. So that's caused a massive
• 15:27
  diplomatic incident, ensured personally intervened because
• 15:32
  the British said these men, we gave them their word that they
• 15:36
  would not be detained and they wouldn't be arrested.
• 15:39
  So you have to recognise that under maritime law.
• 15:42
  So the British, eventually, they got the Americans to let these
• 15:48
  men go after they've been arrested.
• 15:50
  So that was one of the incidents.
• 15:53
  OK, These men board the British ship.
• 15:56
  Were they there to negotiate an alliance?
• 15:58
  They talked to negotiate an alliance.
• 16:00
  So that's why the Union saw it. As an act of aggression.
• 16:04
  So that's why the men were arrested.
• 16:06
  But under maritime law, they shouldn't have been OK?
• 16:10
  They should not be. But what did the British
• 16:13
  consider these these terms for an alliance?
• 16:16
  They never seriously considered intervening militarily, but one
• 16:20
  huge nation in Europe did, and they would have.
• 16:23
  Intervened on the part of the Union side.
• 16:26
  Who? Which nation was that?
• 16:28
  Russia. Russia.
• 16:29
  Why did Russia want to support the Union?
• 16:32
  The 11th. Of September 1863, we've got
• 16:35
  Russian units in San Francisco and New York.
• 16:38
  Both unit commanders are carrying letters from Bizarre
• 16:44
  stated that Russia would take up arms against Britain and France
• 16:48
  if they recognise the Confederacy.
• 16:52
  OK, so why did Russia do that? So at this time, Britain is the
• 16:57
  most powerful nation in Europe. You could maybe argue that what
• 17:00
  would Even though they've lost the North American colonies less
• 17:04
  than 100 years previously, they still had the largest empire.
• 17:09
  They still have a huge economy, they still have the strongest
• 17:12
  Navy at that time. So they had bested the Russians,
• 17:16
  along with other nations who supported them in the Crimean
• 17:21
  War. So out of that war came an
• 17:24
  agreement between the French and the Russians.
• 17:26
  This would have been around about 1859.
• 17:29
  They were looking for better diplomatic relations even though
• 17:34
  the French had fought against the Russians and the Crimean
• 17:38
  War. OK, so the Americans had
• 17:43
  supported Russia throughout the war.
• 17:45
  American public support at that time was on the side of the
• 17:49
  Russians during the Crimean War. We even have evidence of
• 17:52
  American diplomats leaking battle plans, British battle
• 17:56
  plans to the Russians during the Crimean War.
• 18:00
  So in the 1860s, there's an uprising in Poland to protest
• 18:04
  against Russian rule in the country.
• 18:07
  So the French, who had that previous agreement with the
• 18:11
  Russians, they refused to condemn the uprising.
• 18:16
  And at this point, the British, skillfully or deceptively, they
• 18:23
  successfully sever the agreement between the French and the
• 18:27
  Russians because they don't want the French and the Russians to
• 18:30
  have an alliance at that time. Yeah, of course they don't.
• 18:35
  So and there has some been something of a political
• 18:39
  earthquake in in Hungary in recent days.
• 18:42
  So it is Eastern Europe. So Poland.
• 18:44
  Yeah. I spent 14 years of my life in
• 18:47
  Hungary. My wife is Hungarian, My son is
• 18:50
  part Hungarian. Atlas Victor Orban lost power.
• 18:55
  He lost the election against Peter Magyar.
• 18:58
  And so Orban had power for almost 20 years and he defrauded
• 19:06
  the country. Him and his friends lined their
• 19:08
  pockets with billions and billions of EUR from the EU.
• 19:13
  They demonised immigrants, demonised the LBGPQ community.
• 19:17
  That's why Joe had to leave. Hungary will be all the better
• 19:21
  for having a new leader. Never fought Viktor Orban would
• 19:26
  lose. Lived in Hungary for a long
• 19:28
  time, lived through elections there and there were many
• 19:31
  election where there was a great white hope who was going to it
• 19:35
  was going to defeat Orban. And it all ended in tears on
• 19:38
  Election Day. And I thought this could be
• 19:41
  similar. My wife did say two years ago
• 19:44
  that my girl was going to win. Yeah, hats off to her for saying
• 19:49
  that, but the. Hats off to you because I've
• 19:51
  never had to drink this shallow water we've got here at Folsom.
• 19:55
  OK, you're not Johnny Cash, but I yeah, it's great for the
• 20:00
  country. Although there Johnny got into
• 20:03
  an argument. Today with Owen Jones on
• 20:06
  Twitter, which was very clever because we'd love to have you on
• 20:09
  the show. Owen Jones is a political
• 20:12
  commentator, for those who don't know.
• 20:13
  Yes, I admire his work greatly. I just don't agree with all his
• 20:17
  texts and I'm allowed to disagree with him.
• 20:19
  Maybe I shouldn't have said like you purport to be an expert on
• 20:23
  something you know nothing about.
• 20:25
  Maybe that was a yeah, you shouldn't have said that.
• 20:27
  Yeah. The last week I've been getting
• 20:29
  a lot of abuse on X because I criticise all self-inflicted,
• 20:33
  all self-inflicted. But I've said to my wife I don't
• 20:36
  mind if someone verbally abuses me on social media.
• 20:40
  I don't. I'm not one of these people
• 20:42
  who's going to be upset by it. I find it quite if someone's
• 20:46
  personal. One of the Michael Jackson fans
• 20:48
  said I like Edwardian, like Chimney Sweet child or
• 20:52
  something, because I said Michael had a lot of plastic
• 20:55
  surgery and he didn't even look human by then.
• 20:59
  I've had a lot of Michael Jackson fans come at me because
• 21:03
  I've criticised the premiere of the film, the Michael biopic,
• 21:07
  and there's been a lot of positive reviewers for Michael.
• 21:12
  But I argued that the studio, Lionsgate, the only really
• 21:16
  invited people to this premiere Fetix, who they knew would be,
• 21:21
  shall we say, favourable about the film.
• 21:24
  And that's why the film's under embargo until the 21st of April,
• 21:28
  which I've never heard of before the film comes out on the 24th
• 21:32
  of April. So I don't know why reviewers
• 21:34
  are embargoed to tell them. I could understand it was a
• 21:37
  Marvel film where they want to keep the ending under wraps, but
• 21:40
  it's Michael Jackson we all know ends in the band either, so.
• 21:45
  Yeah. Do we?
• 21:45
  We've not seen it. So I've not seen that.
• 21:48
  And was Michael Jackson moonwalking alongside chairman
• 21:52
  when he marched to the sea because why are we talking about
• 21:55
  Michael Jackson? Yeah.
• 21:57
  And I would say with any discourse online, any I would
• 22:01
  never get in engaged with anyone.
• 22:03
  I would never get into any arguments.
• 22:04
  It's absolutely pointless. No one is ever going to back
• 22:06
  down. You're never going to sway
• 22:08
  anyone's opinion. But yeah, you go after a Hero of
• 22:12
  Mines and Owen Jones, you go after me personally.
• 22:15
  As I said, I like Owen Jones. He's a great writer.
• 22:17
  I share his politics. I just don't agree with him on
• 22:19
  everything. And it's OK to disagree on
• 22:22
  things and it's OK to insult the man.
• 22:24
  I don't insult him. He said he didn't know what the
• 22:26
  hell he was talking about. You insulted him.
• 22:28
  You insulted him a little bit, just a little bit.
• 22:30
  And you did. And he won't be coming back to
• 22:32
  the your lounge eater. I, I said, I argued that
• 22:38
  Hungarians for the first time in almost 20 years, seem euphoric
• 22:43
  about what's happened. So let's not take that moment
• 22:46
  away from him. I understand that this guy is a
• 22:49
  bit conservative, but as far as I know he's a traditional
• 22:53
  conservative, so he's not going to trample on the rights of
• 22:57
  immigrants or the rights of the LGBT peer community.
• 23:01
  He's not an authoritarian figure like Orbard.
• 23:05
  Was well, yeah, I don't believe he is, but we shall see.
• 23:10
  We shall see. Are we going to get back to the
• 23:12
  American Civil War? You were the one who brought up
• 23:16
  what your wife said, and you'd just dive them head first into
• 23:20
  an attack on Michael Jackson, who's not here to defend
• 23:23
  himself. OK, so let's get back to it.
• 23:28
  Johnny. Is there more to discuss?
• 23:30
  There's a lot more to discuss. So Alexander the second Russia
• 23:33
  Bazaar. He wants friendlier relations
• 23:36
  with the US. So in January 1862, he writes to
• 23:43
  Short and he writes to the president, and they respond in
• 23:48
  kind. They're receptive to better
• 23:50
  terms with the Russians. OK, but why are the Russians not
• 23:54
  entering the war at this point? So Eduardo Stoko, who was the
• 23:59
  Russian ambassador to the US at the time, his most famous
• 24:04
  diplomatic mission was when they sold Alaska to America in 1867.
• 24:11
  OK, So he was critical of both sides in the Civil War.
• 24:16
  So he criticised the demagoguery of the greedy Republicans, as we
• 24:21
  called them. And he said there were agitators
• 24:24
  of both camps and that's why peace by that stage has not been
• 24:28
  reached. So Alexander Gorjakoff, he was
• 24:32
  the foreign minister and chancellor of Russia, and he, in
• 24:36
  contrast to Stokol, he applauded the Union and their singular
• 24:40
  goal and their shared vision of fully uniting the country of
• 24:44
  eminent slavery. So Gorbachev was distraught by
• 24:49
  Confederate games in the winter of 1862.
• 24:52
  Remember we went over it in one of the earlier.
• 24:54
  So it's one of Lee's successes, vaguely.
• 24:57
  Do you remember the name? No, I don't, but I'm assuming
• 25:01
  you're going to tell me. Yes, it was that.
• 25:03
  Fed boots for. Yeah, it's that great victory.
• 25:06
  And why is it any time you mentioned Lee, the table rises
• 25:10
  several inches? They managed.
• 25:15
  May I read a letter from Gorbachev?
• 25:18
  So you're not answering the question then people have
• 25:22
  already pointed out that you your support for Lee was you
• 25:26
  were like it was cloud in my. Analysis of the American Civil
• 25:29
  War. I think it is.
• 25:31
  I don't support Lee whatsoever. So I'm going to read a letter
• 25:34
  that Gorbachev wrote in the winter of 1862 after the
• 25:38
  Confederate Games. OK, I'm definitely, I'm not
• 25:41
  doing it in a Russian accent. So the hope of reunion has grown
• 25:44
  less and less. And I wish to impress on your
• 25:46
  government that the separation that I fear must come will be
• 25:50
  considered by Russia as one of the greatest possible
• 25:52
  misfortunes. So that's what was written to
• 25:55
  you, Abraham Lincoln. OK, so Russia alone has stood by
• 25:58
  you and will continue to stand by you.
• 26:01
  We are very anxious that some means should be pursued which
• 26:04
  will prevent the division that now seems inevitable.
• 26:08
  You know the sentiments of Russia.
• 26:10
  Exclamation mark. We desire above all things, the
• 26:14
  maintenance of the American Union is 1 indivisible nation.
• 26:19
  It is one can respond. Lincoln, How does he personally
• 26:23
  respond? To this letter.
• 26:25
  As I said, better relations with Russia, and you have to
• 26:28
  understand as backward as Russia is, remember Alexander T gets
• 26:34
  assassinated about 20 years after the civil war started.
• 26:39
  He, he made a vital mistake because previously they'd made
• 26:41
  an attempt on his life that day. And when he was going back to
• 26:44
  the Winter Palace in Saint Petersburg, he got out of his
• 26:48
  carriage to try to speak to them, to try and talk them down.
• 26:52
  And one of them just detonated the bomb on him.
• 26:55
  So. He killed himself and.
• 26:57
  Of course himself, Alexander lived for I think a few more
• 27:03
  days or so by even die, but he emancipated the serfs in 1861.
• 27:10
  Did no one think to speak to Alexander Rinden?
• 27:15
  Compel him not to go outside? Appeal.
• 27:18
  I'm sure someone would have, but it was just a tragic ending to
• 27:22
  his life and it's just maybe unfortunate that he felt that
• 27:26
  they would listen to him even though they'd tried to kill him
• 27:30
  previously. But that maybe shows that he had
• 27:35
  a tender heart. Kind of thing.
• 27:38
  Anyway, OK, so he's blown up, but.
• 27:41
  But this is 1881. Around January 1863, the
• 27:45
  Russians began reconnaissance missions and they go into
• 27:49
  British imperialistic holdings in Asia.
• 27:52
  So their Pacific squadron, which is led by Admiral A pop off.
• 27:59
  They go into these holdings just essentially to get try to get a
• 28:05
  feel of what they'll be facing. So at this point, their war
• 28:10
  preparedness is basically racking up.
• 28:13
  They're planning for war at this point with the British.
• 28:17
  So they had after they're in Asia, they head to San
• 28:21
  Francisco. And at this point they await
• 28:24
  communications from Moscow. What do we do next?
• 28:27
  OK. And what does Moscow say?
• 28:30
  So they're there in September 1863.
• 28:33
  So the Atlantic Squadron, this is obviously different to the
• 28:38
  Pacific Squadron, they poor in New York.
• 28:41
  And Rear Admiral Leskowski, his objectives were, and this is a
• 28:49
  direct quote from him, and this would have been in the summer
• 28:52
  before they got to New York. The goal of the squadron in the
• 28:55
  event of a war at present foreseen with the Western powers
• 28:59
  is that with all possible means available against our opponents,
• 29:03
  inflicting by means of separate cruises the most painful damage
• 29:08
  and lost to the commerce of the enemy, are making attacks with
• 29:12
  the entire squadron on the poorly protected places of the
• 29:16
  colonies of the enemy. That's obviously the British
• 29:19
  realistic holdings in Asia he's speaking about.
• 29:22
  And the British were aware of these reconnaissance missions,
• 29:27
  but in all fairness to them, they got escalated tensions.
• 29:31
  So just remind me of the Cold War when the Russians sent a
• 29:35
  nuclear sub to the core of New York.
• 29:40
  I think the commander wanted to fire on New York during the Cold
• 29:44
  War. This was during the human
• 29:46
  missile crisis, and he was caught down by one of his
• 29:50
  officers. So he was going to launch a
• 29:52
  nuclear warhead without getting permission from Moscow?
• 29:57
  Heard from the Kremlin. From the Kremlin, but he was
• 29:59
  talked out by one of his officers.
• 30:02
  So again, there's the evidence shows, the historical evidence
• 30:07
  shows that these men weren't fully aware of what their orders
• 30:10
  were. Because at that time, obviously,
• 30:12
  communications between Moscow and these squadrons was glacial.
• 30:17
  So many of these officers, they could have took it upon
• 30:21
  themselves to attack those imperialistic holdings, but
• 30:25
  thankfully, they didn't. Yeah.
• 30:27
  And thankfully that didn't happen.
• 30:29
  Is there anything more on the Russians involvement in the
• 30:33
  Civil War and American Civil War?
• 30:36
  Just that is astonishing that they would have went to war with
• 30:40
  the British and the French over the Civil War, the American
• 30:45
  Civil War. So they were asked when those
• 30:49
  squadrons, when the Atlantic Squadron arrived in New York,
• 30:53
  the British asked them to withdraw.
• 30:57
  There was a pause and at this time the British are thinking we
• 31:02
  might recognise the Confederacy. But they didn't, thankfully, and
• 31:08
  if they had, the Russian fleets were in an advantageous position
• 31:13
  to begin war against them. OK, so Britain doesn't recognise
• 31:18
  the Confederacy, France doesn't. The Russians recognise the
• 31:24
  Union, but they don't get they don't involve themselves in the
• 31:28
  war. The American Civil War comes and
• 31:32
  goes without European military intervention.
• 31:35
  Thankfully, because it would have, there would have been many
• 31:39
  more deaths. So thankfully, Breton didn't
• 31:43
  get. Involved Could it have turned
• 31:45
  into a World War if that had happened?
• 31:47
  Yeah, I mean, at that point it would be a World War, wouldn't
• 31:50
  it? Because you would have the
• 31:52
  British and the Russian naval operations in the Far East.
• 31:56
  Shall we move on and talk about Appomattox?
• 32:00
  Yes. That's all.
• 32:01
  We're at the end of the war. So this is April 1865, and the
• 32:05
  war is clearly coming to an end. So what is Appomattox and am I
• 32:10
  pronouncing that? Correctly.
• 32:11
  Yeah, you're pronouncing it correctly.
• 32:13
  So Appomattox is where the Confederacy made their official
• 32:18
  September. So in the weeks leading up to
• 32:21
  it, the Union Army are ready to obliterate what's left of the
• 32:25
  Confederacy. And Grant and Lee are exchanging
• 32:30
  letters at this point. So Lee.
• 32:33
  Remind people who Grant and Lee are again.
• 32:35
  I'm not reminding the people who grant and.
• 32:37
  Lee yes, you are. You have to.
• 32:39
  I think you have to remind our listeners who they are.
• 32:43
  OK, so Robert E Lee is head of the Confederacy Army and Grant
• 32:50
  is head of Ulysses S Grant, who became 18 President, 18
• 32:54
  President of the United States. We covered that.
• 32:57
  We covered that. He he's general of the Union
• 33:00
  Army. OK.
• 33:01
  And they're exchanging letters, Grant and Lee.
• 33:03
  They're exchanging letters. They want formal talks.
• 33:06
  But Lee is reluctant to agree to an unconditional surrender.
• 33:11
  As I said, General Mead, who's in charge of the Army of
• 33:16
  Potomac, we went into him before.
• 33:18
  Yeah, a few episodes ago. He is ready to destroy the
• 33:22
  what's left of the Confederacy, but then he hears news that
• 33:26
  Grant and we have agreed to convene abermatics in Virginia.
• 33:32
  OK. So is Lincoln involved in these
• 33:34
  talks? Has he prepared the terms of
• 33:37
  surrender? No, Lincoln's not involved.
• 33:40
  This is a military surrender, so it would be between the two
• 33:43
  military leaders of. The What about Jefferson, Davies
• 33:48
  and and Lincoln? Are they not involved in these
• 33:51
  talks? No, it's the military surrender,
• 33:53
  so it's between the two respective commanders of the
• 33:57
  armies. But Lincoln is the commander in
• 34:01
  chief of the country. So remember, Grant was made
• 34:04
  Commander General of the US Army.
• 34:06
  So he has full autonomy of. Course he has full autonomy.
• 34:10
  I don't even know if Lincoln would have been Privy to the
• 34:13
  surrender terms. OK, let's get to it then.
• 34:17
  They're chatting it Appomattox. What are the terms offered?
• 34:22
  So this would be the April 1865. So they finally agree on using
• 34:27
  one of the residents houses which is in the village of
• 34:32
  Appomattox Courthouse. So both men had served in the
• 34:36
  Mexican American war and Gran he remembered Lee Lee's very
• 34:42
  distinctive looking. But Lee apparently didn't
• 34:44
  remember meet in Grant Jordan American Mexican War.
• 34:48
  OK, so the terms agreed are that all weapons and supplies will be
• 34:54
  handed over to the Union. But Lee manages to get a
• 34:58
  concession from Grant that horses and mules should not be
• 35:04
  appropriated from sovereign soldiers because Lee argues that
• 35:07
  those men need them for farming. The war is over.
• 35:11
  And to get home, maybe. Not not to get home, no.
• 35:15
  It's for their farm and. For their Life OK but how have
• 35:20
  we got to this point how it seems like we've skipped over
• 35:24
  important detail why are the South suddenly surrendering we.
• 35:28
  Went over an episode 3 and our militarism episode where we
• 35:32
  showed what happened at Gettysburg, what happened at
• 35:36
  Anterum, the overland campaign, general chairman's campaign.
• 35:41
  The March to the Sea General. Sherman's March to the Sea.
• 35:44
  Are we even listening? The Confederacy was on its knees
• 35:49
  at this point, but I just wanted it's just remarkable that even
• 35:52
  far on into spring 18. 65 But that you say that was because of
• 35:59
  Lee's brilliance, that they got as far as they did.
• 36:03
  I don't say that some historians argue that the war would have
• 36:06
  been over within 18 months. Joe enrages me so much sometimes
• 36:10
  with his question. Why are you writing that book
• 36:13
  about Robert? The The next thing I'm actually
• 36:17
  I'm going to write something on the.
• 36:19
  Neville Chamberlain this summer. OK, Why do you think that it's
• 36:24
  not relevant to our listeners to be reminded why the South are
• 36:27
  surrendering it at this point? I didn't say it wasn't relevant.
• 36:30
  It's like you've went from the start of the movie to the end
• 36:32
  and you're wondering why Andy's escaping from Shawshank.
• 36:36
  We don't. We need to have the details
• 36:39
  filled in. We did a whole episode.
• 36:40
  On The Shawshank on why the South were beaten, OK, so the
• 36:45
  South episode 3 of this we go in great detail detail.
• 36:50
  Into why the South were defeated.
• 36:52
  Yeah. So does Lee accept these terms?
• 36:56
  He does. He just wanted that concession
• 36:58
  about the mules. Was there anything?
• 37:01
  Else in these terms, any ordered concessions, it's not a
• 37:04
  concession as such, but we'll get into this during the segment
• 37:08
  on the Lost Cause theory and also on Reconstruction.
• 37:12
  So grant rights after this. Basically, the day or so after
• 37:17
  the war is over, the rebels, obviously Confederacy or our
• 37:22
  countrymen, again in the best sign of rejoicing after victory,
• 37:27
  will be to abstain from all demonstrations on the field.
• 37:31
  OK, so the war has ended. What was the atmosphere and the
• 37:35
  mood like at this meeting between Grant and Lee?
• 37:38
  They were very respectful of each other.
• 37:41
  They knew that they'd been involved in a historic event.
• 37:47
  And I think Lee, he may not have admitted that, but he was
• 37:50
  probably glad that no more blood would be shed.
• 37:53
  When Davis heard about Appomattox and the surrender, he
• 37:57
  was very, very upset and angry. So he goes on the Lam for 30
• 38:03
  days and he's finally caught himself and his wife by the 1st
• 38:08
  Wisconsin Regiment in the Fourth Michigan Cavalry.
• 38:12
  And he's ridiculed by them, which actually Keegan was seemed
• 38:18
  quite upset that they ridiculed him because.
• 38:20
  How did they ridicule him? They just made fun of him.
• 38:24
  They just reminded me of what the Allies did to Hans Frank
• 38:29
  when they liberated Poland. What did he do to him?
• 38:33
  They didn't quite do this, the Davis, but they beat them to a
• 38:37
  pulp and just humiliated them with the Butcher of Kratal.
• 38:41
  So they just basically showed that now you are a civilian and
• 38:48
  butcher of Bakersfield, Butcher of Bakersfield, and you will
• 38:51
  face the consequences of what you've done.
• 38:54
  So that's what the First Wisconsin and the Fourth
• 38:58
  Michigan Cavalry men, I think that was their mindset at that
• 39:02
  time. So we'll get into Reconstruction
• 39:04
  now. So let's get into
• 39:07
  Reconstruction. Johnny's not going to answer us
• 39:09
  about Lincoln and Davis. So shall we talk about
• 39:13
  Reconstruction, Johnny? That's I wasn't going to answer.
• 39:16
  I just. You'll have the answer.
• 39:18
  I think I did. I did answer.
• 39:20
  I said Gran. It wasn't satisfactory the
• 39:23
  answer if. It's not.
• 39:24
  I'm sorry, I don't know what to say.
• 39:26
  Gran is the leader of the Union Army.
• 39:30
  Lee is the leader of the Confederate Army.
• 39:32
  I don't know what more you want. I don't know.
• 39:35
  Anyway, let's move on to reconstruction.
• 39:37
  Please. Please move on.
• 39:41
  Firstly, should we say what it is?
• 39:43
  What is reconstruction? As we were coming towards the
• 39:47
  end of the war, President Lincoln and his administration
• 39:51
  were debated and what could be done with the South.
• 39:54
  So this is where Reconstruction comes from and what could happen
• 39:59
  to the South after the war ends. And what did they decide?
• 40:04
  And why was Lincoln known? Became known as a Confederate
• 40:08
  sympathiser after his softball plans.
• 40:11
  He didn't become known as a. OK, for Christ's sake.
• 40:15
  Lincoln obviously has killed. So what was Lincoln's plan?
• 40:22
  And is it fair to say his plan for reconstruction was a lot
• 40:26
  more lenient than the congressional reconstruction
• 40:29
  that followed? The the reason why the
• 40:32
  congressional. Reconstruction was much.
• 40:35
  More aggressive than Lincoln's was because they had to
• 40:39
  circumvent the new president, Andrew Johnson, who has went
• 40:45
  down as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history.
• 40:49
  Why? Johnson is seen as one of the
• 40:51
  worst presidents in U.S. history because of his opposition to
• 40:56
  Reconstruction in the South. So Lincoln was similar.
• 41:01
  Lincoln. The whole idea is reintegration,
• 41:05
  not retribution, but there's ways to do it.
• 41:09
  So why was Andrew Johnson sympathetic to the South?
• 41:13
  Was Andrew Johnson from the South?
• 41:16
  Andrea Johnson was from? North Carolina.
• 41:18
  So he was a Southerner. So yeah, he may have been
• 41:21
  sympathetic for that reason. He also became the first US
• 41:25
  president in history, because of his intransigence over
• 41:29
  Reconstruction, to be impeached. OK.
• 41:32
  And I'm at a loss to why the North, the union, would elect A
• 41:37
  sovereign president. No one elected on me was the
• 41:41
  vice president. OK, during Lincoln's second
• 41:44
  inauguration, Johnson, who was clearly intoxicated, gave a very
• 41:49
  long speech. So he was a notorious drunk.
• 41:52
  But what happened whether he was drunk throughout the entirety of
• 41:57
  his therapist debate, wasn't it? I think he was.
• 42:01
  So Johnson becomes president after Lincoln's assassination?
• 42:05
  Yes, he's the Vice President by John Wilkes Booth.
• 42:09
  John Wilkes Booth. Are we going to talk about the
• 42:11
  assassination? Is there, is there anything we
• 42:14
  have to cover? No, I don't.
• 42:15
  Think I'm going into the assassination.
• 42:17
  Lincoln was assassinated. Ford's Theatre.
• 42:19
  I visited Ford's Theatre in 2013, I believe.
• 42:22
  I don't know that but. There's a brilliant.
• 42:25
  The was that? No, he was assassinated.
• 42:28
  No, I don't. Know you've been to Ford's
• 42:29
  Theatre, but the last Podcast on the Left, they do a fantastic
• 42:33
  series on the assassination of Abraham Lincoln is very.
• 42:36
  Funny. Are we going to do well, his
• 42:39
  assassination is very funny, or that episode is very, very
• 42:42
  episodes on it are very funny. But no, I don't want to get into
• 42:45
  the assassination. But wasn't there a sovereign
• 42:47
  conspiracy? There was a sovereign
• 42:49
  conspiracy, but we're looking at Reconstruction.
• 42:53
  So yes, the assassination leads to Johnson becoming president,
• 42:57
  which obviously had a huge detrimental impact on
• 43:01
  Reconstruction. OK, So what does Johnson do?
• 43:04
  Johnson. As I said, he's very sympathetic
• 43:07
  to the sovereign cause. So the Civil Rights Act of 1866,
• 43:13
  this would have been when the 13th and 14th Amendments were
• 43:17
  ratified, OK. And they were fully ratified in
• 43:22
  1868. But blacks basically became
• 43:25
  enshrined in the Constitution. Johnson vehemently objected to
• 43:30
  this. So he didn't want the black men
• 43:33
  to be or black people to be recognised as citizens.
• 43:36
  He wanted it done differently, he wanted it done more.
• 43:39
  Gradually, so that's why he was impeached in spring of 1868.
• 43:44
  Is there not an argument to be made that Johnson's approach was
• 43:47
  perhaps the correct one? Just plain devil's advocate.
• 43:50
  You had these Southern states that had been bested, they'd
• 43:54
  suffered tragic loss on the battlefield throughout this war.
• 44:00
  And the reason the war happened, they deny that was the reason.
• 44:04
  But obviously the fight was over slavery or it became over
• 44:09
  freedom of slaves. So was Johnson's approach not
• 44:14
  perhaps understandable? No, not at all.
• 44:18
  OK, I'm just asking the question.
• 44:20
  You made the point that so many people had died and there had
• 44:22
  been so many casualties, but that was the same on the Union
• 44:25
  side. The country had went to war over
• 44:30
  the issue of slavery, or it became the main issue during the
• 44:33
  war. It was no time for these men and
• 44:37
  women who'd been under the youth of the sovereign slavery
• 44:41
  institution to be fully fledged American citizens.
• 44:45
  So Johnson didn't go far enough. And Lincoln, obviously, he
• 44:50
  didn't want recognition against the South, and there absolutely
• 44:54
  should have been. But he would have went further
• 44:56
  than Johnson if he'd lived. Lincoln would have objected to
• 44:59
  the 13th or 14th Amendments. OK, so Johnson is impeached,
• 45:05
  removed from office. No, he won the vote, but he then
• 45:09
  lost that year's presidential election to Ulysses S.
• 45:14
  Grant Oh yeah, the guy who fought in the war.
• 45:17
  The guy who fought in the war. So we know what's going on in
• 45:20
  the Union. Lincoln gets killed by John
• 45:22
  Wilkes Booth. Johnson is impeached, Ulysses
• 45:25
  is. Grant is becomes president.
• 45:29
  So we know what happens to their leaders, what's going on with
• 45:31
  the sovereign leaders, what happens to them, What fate
• 45:34
  befalls these proud, brave men from the South?
• 45:37
  Yeah, as you called them all fair.
• 45:40
  Did I? Yeah.
• 45:41
  They were brave men. I'm not afraid to say that
• 45:44
  honour. You're not meant to hang
• 45:46
  yourself with the nurse I just gave you.
• 45:48
  You're men go on. No, the sovereign leadership at
• 45:53
  that time, they absolutely should have been tried for
• 45:57
  treason. I saw Lee, Jefferson Davis,
• 46:02
  Alexander Stevens, who was the vice president under the
• 46:05
  Confederacy, Robert E Toombs, who was the secretary of War,
• 46:09
  the entire military apparatus, the captains, the generals, and
• 46:14
  even the soldier, the average soldier, they should have tried
• 46:19
  for treason against the United States.
• 46:22
  And I'm assuming they weren't from what you're saying, Davis.
• 46:26
  Was. Why do you think these brave
• 46:29
  men, as you called them, should have been tried for treason?
• 46:31
  So under Article 3 of the US Constitution, can I read it?
• 46:36
  So it reads, Treason against the United States shall consist only
• 46:41
  in Libyan war against them or in adherent to their enemies,
• 46:45
  giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of
• 46:51
  Treason, unless of the testimony of two Witnesses to the same of
• 46:55
  their Act, or a Confession in open Court.
• 46:59
  The Congress shall have the power to declare the punishment
• 47:03
  of Treason, but no attainer of Treason shall work Corruption of
• 47:08
  Blood or Forfeiture, except during the life of the person
• 47:13
  attained. OK, but why did the Why does the
• 47:18
  North decide not to try these men for treason apart from.
• 47:24
  Davis sorry, they absolutely should have and under that
• 47:30
  article they are all Celtic with treason.
• 47:33
  Davis He was subsequently charged and this would have been
• 47:39
  in December of 1865. SA Joint Congress House of
• 47:43
  Representatives resolution explores treason charges against
• 47:47
  Davis. He is the president of the
• 47:50
  Confederacy, or he was. So this goes to the Circuit
• 47:55
  Court of Virginia, the state court, and the case lasts for
• 48:01
  almost three years and Davis is detained for that entire time.
• 48:06
  But by the end of the case, no decision is reached.
• 48:10
  They sent it to the Supreme Court and to this day apparently
• 48:17
  is there sat in the Supreme Court, but the Supreme Court
• 48:21
  didn't act on the case or didn't take up the case.
• 48:24
  His daddy still sat in that prison cell, waiting for the
• 48:27
  outcome of the Supreme Court. No decision.
• 48:31
  Who gave him a pardon on Christmas Day 1868?
• 48:35
  Your good friend. Johnson gave him a pardon, but
• 48:38
  Davis's lawyer was fantastic, one of the lawyers, because he
• 48:42
  essentially got him off on a technicality or he got that case
• 48:46
  not have a resolution because he said that federal law didn't
• 48:51
  exist in the Confederate states once they left the Union.
• 48:56
  So he said once they've seen it from the Union, they're no
• 49:00
  longer subject to federal law. So that's ridiculous.
• 49:03
  I know it's ridiculous, but it's also brilliant.
• 49:06
  So yeah, that's all. The rest of them.
• 49:10
  You should have been tried for treason.
• 49:13
  Yeah, they certainly should have, but I guess so much blood
• 49:18
  had been shed by this point there was not an appetite for
• 49:22
  more. Maybe not for more.
• 49:23
  When I wrote my JFK paper last year, I actually looked in to
• 49:29
  Treason and the history of treason in the United States and
• 49:33
  I discovered that only 40 individuals in the entirety of
• 49:39
  the United States have been charged with treason.
• 49:42
  And only a few of them, very few of them have been found guilty.
• 49:46
  So the Rosenbergs in the 50s who were cobia spies, they were
• 49:53
  found guilty of treason and executed.
• 49:55
  And also Benedict Arnold was charged with treason, but he was
• 50:00
  never on trial because he escaped.
• 50:03
  So treason is very difficult to prove in a court of law.
• 50:06
  But these men, the men who I mentioned, they absolutely
• 50:11
  should have been tried for treason.
• 50:13
  You don't even have to try them like for instance Lee, you just
• 50:17
  execute them. When he surrenders, you'd have
• 50:19
  to have a military trial of Lee. Why?
• 50:21
  Because you're still acting under the sieges of law, so you
• 50:28
  can't just execute military prisoners.
• 50:31
  We spoke about that in the last episode.
• 50:33
  You shouldn't just be executing military prisoners.
• 50:36
  So I'm not saying they should have, I'm saying they could
• 50:38
  have. And I wish to have after a
• 50:40
  military trials, but he wasn't tried and he went on, we'll get
• 50:45
  into this in the lost cause. And they went on with their
• 50:49
  lives. But they obviously tried to get
• 50:51
  Davis, but they lost the case or they didn't prove their case.
• 50:55
  So it still sat there in the Supreme Court, and it was as
• 50:59
  late as the 1960s. But couldn't you argue that we
• 51:05
  reached for Grant's gone to blow his brains out, and he had to
• 51:08
  respond and a Union soldier had to shoot him?
• 51:11
  That's not an action problem. It would have been very
• 51:14
  suspicious circumstances of the Union had come out to the
• 51:18
  country and said we are trying to grab Grant's gone to the
• 51:22
  surrender automatic. So don't think anyone would have
• 51:26
  really accepted that. So when we get to
• 51:28
  Reconstruction, you've got 4,000,003 slaves now in the
• 51:33
  South and Reconstruction, there were so many ideas for it.
• 51:39
  Some northern and sovereign senators said that these freed
• 51:44
  slaves should then face repatriation to Liberia, to
• 51:51
  western Africa, to centre Leon the Nazi.
• 51:55
  A similar idea for the Jews as well.
• 51:58
  They were going to send them to Madagascar, whether that would
• 52:01
  become practical throughout the war.
• 52:02
  So we had the Holocaust instead. OK, So more sovereign studies as
• 52:10
  well. Many of them were left intact
• 52:13
  after the American Civil War. And the ones that were, they
• 52:18
  were quickly rebuilt. So most of them were rebuilt in
• 52:20
  1866, just over a year after the war had ended.
• 52:27
  But obviously the economy has changed forever because you've
• 52:30
  got 4 million slaves. It can no longer be exploited.
• 52:34
  These lands are still there. So they're used as sharecroppers
• 52:38
  on these lands. And when did I end?
• 52:41
  The 40's, The 50s? Yeah, the 1940's, the 1950s.
• 52:46
  So it continued on. Yeah, they didn't have time
• 52:48
  machines, so. Sorry.
• 52:50
  They didn't have time machines. We couldn't go back to the 40s
• 52:52
  and 50s. We'd already passed the 1840s
• 52:56
  and 50s at this point, so. Yeah.
• 52:58
  So in the South, there were black legislators after
• 53:05
  Reconstruction. At the start of Reconstruction,
• 53:07
  the House of Representatives in South Carolina, the majority of
• 53:11
  legislators were black. But after the North withdrew
• 53:16
  from the South in 1877, so they've been there for over 10
• 53:21
  years, the legislation that had been passed by Congress was
• 53:25
  replaced by the Black Codes and the German Crow laws.
• 53:30
  OK, what were the Black Codes in the Jim Crow laws?
• 53:33
  Blacks, they're not full citizens.
• 53:36
  Yeah, they have few protections under the law and employment and
• 53:40
  property and voting. We had the ridiculous
• 53:44
  grandfather clause when it came to voting.
• 53:48
  What was that? It's just if your grandfather
• 53:51
  was allowed to vote, you're allowed to vote.
• 53:53
  What's that show with that? Their grandfathers weren't
• 53:56
  allowed to vote. Their grandfathers.
• 53:57
  Were slaves. So we had the Supreme Court
• 54:01
  decision in 1896 that essentially stated that the
• 54:06
  racial segregation laws of the South did not violate the US
• 54:12
  Constitution. This is the whole idea that
• 54:14
  blacks are separate but equal, but they're not equal.
• 54:17
  They're second class citizens. Second class citizens.
• 54:19
  So we've got segregation, and this doesn't change until the
• 54:23
  1964 civil rights bill. Yeah.
• 54:27
  So almost 100 years. And just one last thing on
• 54:31
  reconstruction. So obviously after the Second
• 54:36
  World War, the Allies, the Americans, they stayed in Japan
• 54:40
  for seven years, they stayed in Nazi Germany for 10 years.
• 54:44
  So you've got the the Nazification of Germany that
• 54:48
  took place after the war. So National Socialism is so much
• 54:51
  part of the fabric that the Allies know that they can't just
• 54:55
  leave these countries to their own devices.
• 54:58
  So that's that was the idea in the South, the Union army is
• 55:02
  there for over 10 years to try and make sure that
• 55:05
  Reconstruction is a success. But as Reynolds shows, it was an
• 55:10
  abject failure. May I just read something from
• 55:13
  Reynolds quickly to finish this segment?
• 55:16
  So, he wrote, Radical Reconstruction had been a bold
• 55:19
  experiment seeking to make former slaves and to fill and
• 55:22
  equal citizens. But it became too radical for
• 55:25
  most Northerners. They did not want to see federal
• 55:28
  power used aggressively to overthrow state.
• 55:31
  So Reconstruction was an abject failure.
• 55:33
  And I just wish that Lincoln had lived, because I think if we did
• 55:37
  and wouldn't, we wouldn't have had to wait until 1964 for the
• 55:41
  civil rights bill. OK.
• 55:44
  Just to come back on that a little.
• 55:47
  So wasn't Johnson right then? Andrew Johnson, yeah.
• 55:51
  In what way was he right? He knew, but it had to be done
• 55:54
  gradually. Perhaps, and perhaps the South
• 55:59
  were still, they obviously were still greatly upset that they've
• 56:03
  lost the war, but they lost the war.
• 56:07
  You should have given them the choice.
• 56:09
  You've lost the war and this is what's going to happen.
• 56:13
  So you went to war to preserve the situation of slavery.
• 56:17
  You lost the war. We are now going to tell you
• 56:21
  what is going to happen in the South.
• 56:22
  Oh. Yeah, that makes sense.
• 56:25
  OK Shall we move on to the Lost Cause?
• 56:29
  Yeah, Reconfraction links beautifully to the Lost Cause.
• 56:33
  We'll see about that. OK What was the Lost Cause?
• 56:37
  What is the Lost Cause theory and when did it emerge as a
• 56:40
  dominant narrative in the South? I first became aware of the Lost
• 56:45
  Cause theory when I watched Ken Burns The Civil War in 1990.
• 56:50
  So one of the men in those documentaries was a man called
• 56:53
  Shelby Foote, who wasn't actually a qualified historian.
• 56:58
  So why they can't have them on? Why they can't have them on?
• 57:01
  He was a colourful character. Yeah, he was very colourful
• 57:04
  character, very gargarious, very I'm going very funny, but.
• 57:09
  You could argue the Robert E Lee of historians, you're saying.
• 57:14
  That I'm not. I don't know what that link is,
• 57:17
  but you're saying that. OK, I just said he wasn't a
• 57:20
  historian. OK, He wasn't a historian, OK.
• 57:24
  So. Ken wanted the one now anyway.
• 57:26
  Did he paint himself as a historian?
• 57:28
  He painted himself as a historian, but he wasn't a
• 57:31
  qualified. Historian.
• 57:32
  He hadn't studied history in any university or college.
• 57:37
  So Shelby, he got more screen time than anyone else in that
• 57:42
  documentary of the 10 parts. And there was a professor, a
• 57:46
  black woman, Professor Barbara Field was her name.
• 57:49
  I remember her. Yeah, I think from the
• 57:51
  University of Washington. I can't be certain, but she got
• 57:54
  less screen time than this man. And he basically evokes the Lost
• 57:59
  Cause theory and he was criticised for doing so.
• 58:02
  Are you going to tell us what the Lost Cause theory was, or
• 58:05
  are we going to lean to? I I don't want I don't want
• 58:08
  people to think I'm like a snob because amateur historians,
• 58:14
  they're passionate, they're knowledgeable, they know their
• 58:17
  subjects. I remember my mother one day she
• 58:21
  invited me to meet some friends and she said I Jonathan, like he
• 58:26
  knows more about history than you're there.
• 58:28
  And it's doesn't. He's never studied history and
• 58:31
  Shelby have a history degree. He doesn't write.
• 58:34
  I who papers. Sorry, who was this?
• 58:36
  It doesn't matter who it was, but I so I don't want people to
• 58:40
  think I'm snobbish about amateur historians like Shelby.
• 58:43
  Well, certainly are. Go on.
• 58:45
  Just because he doesn't have a history degree or a master's, or
• 58:48
  he doesn't write academic historical papers, it doesn't
• 58:51
  mean what he says isn't of great importance or isn't worth
• 58:56
  listening to. But the fact that he got more
• 59:00
  screen type than someone like Barbara Fields, and the fact
• 59:03
  that he was allowed to evoke the Lost Cause theory was maybe the
• 59:09
  fault of the producers and the directory of those documentaries
• 59:13
  or of those episodes. He was a scene.
• 59:15
  Stealer. He was a scene stealer.
• 59:17
  OK, what did he say? So they lost cause, essentially.
• 59:21
  After the Confederacy lost the war, there was a romanticised
• 59:26
  notion that what they had been fighting for was not to preserve
• 59:32
  slavery as an institution, but they're fighting to preserve
• 59:35
  their way of life. So the whole idea of the
• 59:39
  romanticised S where you've got all the beautiful elegant women,
• 59:44
  you've got the benevolent slave Davis, he wrote a book after the
• 59:50
  war called the right in the fall of the Confederate government.
• 59:53
  And he said that guys, our slaves, they were happy.
• 59:57
  They were happy before the war. They're now unhappy because if
• 1:00:00
  you Union cunts. I'm sure you said that you write
• 1:00:04
  this book in yourself. You probably wrote the galleys
• 1:00:09
  on the cell. He always wrote a book in a
• 1:00:11
  cell, which it takes pretty good place in your your library.
• 1:00:15
  Adolf Hitler, he wrote. Mein Kampf and Landsberg Prison,
• 1:00:20
  Yes, it was actually quite a funny story if I can go into.
• 1:00:23
  No, we haven't got time. We don't have to.
• 1:00:25
  I'll. Quickly go into it When Hitler
• 1:00:28
  got to Landsberg prison. You have to remember though, he
• 1:00:32
  had become well known in political circles and the years
• 1:00:36
  before these guys are in prison, they don't have access to papers
• 1:00:41
  or access really to the outside waters.
• 1:00:43
  So when he got there, these guys didn't know who he was.
• 1:00:46
  So they just, I think they referred to him as that strange
• 1:00:49
  man on the 2nd floor. So they were delighted when he
• 1:00:53
  went to a cell to start writing Minecraft because he'd spend all
• 1:00:57
  day on their writing Minecraft, but at night they'd been rounded
• 1:01:00
  up by the warden and made to listen to what he had written
• 1:01:04
  that day. So they would be brought in to
• 1:01:07
  the mesh hall or whatever. They had their foot, and Hitler
• 1:01:11
  would stand there and beat like everything he'd written that
• 1:01:13
  day. So they were like, Oh no, we
• 1:01:15
  thought we got rid of this guy, but we actually didn't because
• 1:01:19
  we're forced to spend our evenings with him instead of
• 1:01:21
  just the days they were forced. But.
• 1:01:23
  No one's stopped. No one's forcing you to read
• 1:01:25
  that every night before you go to bed.
• 1:01:27
  I don't want a copy of Minecraft my old school had.
• 1:01:30
  I've never read it. OK, great.
• 1:01:33
  Go on. OK, OK, so.
• 1:01:35
  Davis wrote this book. Davis wrote the book, so then he
• 1:01:39
  just argued, and the South were arguing that we just want a
• 1:01:43
  continuation of our sovereign way of life.
• 1:01:45
  But the South were the ones who succeeded from the North.
• 1:01:50
  Yeah, and even though they were arguing that they then go to war
• 1:01:55
  over slavery, ideology of the Lost Cause is deeply rooted in
• 1:02:02
  the racial belief of white superiority.
• 1:02:07
  Of course, of the benevolent slaves, they were having the
• 1:02:10
  time of their lives down on the South until the Union rolled in,
• 1:02:15
  till clearly it's rooted in a racist ideology.
• 1:02:21
  And in terms of the Lost Cause, in what ways did it that
• 1:02:25
  narrative, the Lost Cause narrative, distort the
• 1:02:28
  historical memory of the Confederacy's boredoms?
• 1:02:31
  That's a great question. So you asked about Southern
• 1:02:34
  women earlier, or women in general at the war.
• 1:02:37
  So many of the slaying soldiers, Confederacy soldiers, many of
• 1:02:41
  their widows and sisters and family members, they took up the
• 1:02:46
  mantle. So they began to perpetuate the
• 1:02:49
  myth of the Lost Cause in writing and like speeches they
• 1:02:55
  gave and they would turn a lot of them would tour the country
• 1:02:59
  given these speeches and just speaking about how the men they
• 1:03:05
  had been married to or been siblings of had not been racist,
• 1:03:10
  but had fought for a noble and just cause.
• 1:03:14
  The the argument goes further into we don't lose because we
• 1:03:19
  did anything wrong. We don't make those crucial
• 1:03:22
  mistakes at Gettysburg. We lost because of the abundant
• 1:03:27
  Union resources. Why isn't there some truth in
• 1:03:32
  that? Of course, there's huge truth in
• 1:03:34
  that. Keegan showed that they probably
• 1:03:37
  wouldn't have won regardless. They weren't.
• 1:03:39
  They may have won F the European superpowers that we got into.
• 1:03:43
  If they had interceded in terms of men, materials, supplies,
• 1:03:47
  weapons, that mail, it would have helped them.
• 1:03:50
  But when Lee dies in 1870, there's a large memorial from
• 1:03:56
  erected 20 years later over the protest of Frederick Douglass.
• 1:04:03
  So he protest this and this came to symbolise the lost Cause.
• 1:04:08
  So you've got the leader of the Confederate Army and there's a
• 1:04:12
  huge memorial of him in Virginia.
• 1:04:15
  And it wasn't removed until, was it 2020?
• 1:04:19
  It was removed. We spoke.
• 1:04:20
  About that, yeah. You were upset that it had been
• 1:04:23
  removed. I wasn't upset and had been
• 1:04:25
  removed so it's still very linked to this day.
• 1:04:28
  And that virgin an insult Dylan Roof who killed all those poor
• 1:04:34
  people in that church and the whole idea in Charlestown of the
• 1:04:40
  March of neo Nazis. This ideology was wrapped up in
• 1:04:46
  the Lost Cause theory. That's why Dylan Roof committed
• 1:04:49
  those crimes, one of the reasons why he committed those crimes.
• 1:04:52
  He obviously was a firm believer in the Lost Cause theory and
• 1:04:57
  also other things that I went into.
• 1:04:59
  Obviously he led a pathetic life up to that point.
• 1:05:03
  And yeah, Frederick Douglass was being opposed to this statue
• 1:05:08
  being erected. He was.
• 1:05:11
  Frederick Douglass, as we mentioned, was a fugitive slave
• 1:05:15
  an. Auditor Joe, you're, you're
• 1:05:17
  speaking like if people are listening, they're going to
• 1:05:19
  remember 2 episodes ago. No, I don't.
• 1:05:22
  So do you expect the listeners? To remember, do you have any
• 1:05:25
  more questions on reconstruction or are we wrapping up or not?
• 1:05:28
  We're talking about the Lost Cause, is there?
• 1:05:31
  So there's nothing more on the Lost Cause.
• 1:05:33
  Should we wrap up this episode? There's a lot more, but let's
• 1:05:36
  wrap up the episode then I'm happy to read something from our
• 1:05:41
  friend Keegan if you're if you're.
• 1:05:44
  But let's wrap it up then, Johnny.
• 1:05:47
  Keegan says of The Lost Cause. It's a highly romanticised
• 1:05:51
  legend which eventually resolved itself into a depiction of the
• 1:05:56
  antebellum South as a land of Magnolia blossoms, white
• 1:06:00
  picketed mansions and contented slaves, which reached its
• 1:06:04
  hypothesis in the best selling novel Gone With the Wind, Joe's
• 1:06:08
  favourite book and film. Yeah, I haven't actually seen
• 1:06:12
  Gone With the Wind. I've not actually seen it.
• 1:06:14
  I actually disagreed with I think Warner on the right side.
• 1:06:18
  I disagreed with it. When they watered it they
• 1:06:21
  removed like 7 minutes or something from it.
• 1:06:23
  Some of the worst racial language from the time is from
• 1:06:28
  the 30s is set in the South in the 1850's, the 1860s.
• 1:06:34
  So you're OK with watching The Birth of a Nation, not Birth of
• 1:06:38
  a Nation, The Birth of a nation. I've never seen Birth of the
• 1:06:42
  Nation with double EW Griffiths, which obviously espouses the
• 1:06:46
  lost Cause theory and. And as a fantastic feat of
• 1:06:52
  cinema. You would say it came out in
• 1:06:55
  1916. Yeah, 1915 of them.
• 1:06:57
  It came out OK No, OK, it doesn't matter.
• 1:07:01
  It doesn't matter which year it came out, but it is it a great
• 1:07:06
  film? Obviously it's not.
• 1:07:09
  I watched them. I've.
• 1:07:10
  Never seen it as a spectacle. Scorsese even cites it for its
• 1:07:15
  technical brilliance, but I've never seen it.
• 1:07:18
  But yeah. John Ford is in that.
• 1:07:21
  Is he? It was Woodrow Wilson's
• 1:07:23
  favourite film. He used to do screens of it in
• 1:07:25
  the White House when he was in the White House, but when he was
• 1:07:28
  president. Anyway, that's all I do.
• 1:07:30
  Gone with the blind. The slaves are happy.
• 1:07:33
  You've got all those beautiful women, you've got the handsome
• 1:07:37
  Clark Gable character who's not against slavery but not for
• 1:07:42
  slavery. And it just gives the wrong
• 1:07:45
  impression of what the South was like.
• 1:07:47
  So the South was not like that before the Civil War.
• 1:07:51
  And unfortunately, things like God of the Wind have done
• 1:07:56
  irreparable damage to the narrative around the Civil War.
• 1:08:01
  But again, that's not to criticise it as a film.
• 1:08:04
  I'm sure it's a good film I've never seen.
• 1:08:06
  It it's added to the romanticised narrative of the
• 1:08:08
  pre civil War. So, OK, so let's finish up then
• 1:08:12
  we've got one more episode on the the American Civil War.
• 1:08:16
  Yeah, the final episode will be on the 54th of Massachusetts,
• 1:08:20
  the most celebrated black regiment of the American Civil
• 1:08:24
  War. So that's the final episode.
• 1:08:27
  OK. Thank you for listening.
• 1:08:28
  Thank you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed this
• 1:08:31
  episode. We've packed a lot in but I
• 1:08:34
  think it all links and is for me is fascinating.
• 1:08:37
  For me, the post war Malay of the South in America is just as
• 1:08:44
  interesting as the minute details of the battles that
• 1:08:48
  we've also. Done, John, Are you off to watch
• 1:08:51
  your double bill now I've Gone with the Wind and The Birth of
• 1:08:54
  the Nation. Did Woodrow Wilson invite you to
• 1:08:57
  the White House screening room? Hopefully he will.
• 1:09:01
  Yeah, he has. OK.
• 1:09:04
  All right. Thank you for listening to the
• 1:09:05
  Twin History podcast. We'll see you next time.
• 1:09:07
  See you next time, guys. Bye.
• 1:09:09
  Bye. Bye.
• 1:09:11
  The Twin History Podcast is a Lost Cosmonauts production
• 1:09:14
  produced by me Virag Estertoud. Additional producers are Dale
• 1:09:20
  McGoldrick, Johnny McCann and Joe McCann.
• 1:09:23
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• 1:09:29
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