Latest / The Art of Costume Podcast / The Choral with Jenny Beavan - The Costume House with Spencer Williams

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The Choral with Jenny Beavan - The Costume House with Spencer Williams · The Art of Costume Podcast

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Welcome to The Costume House with Spencer Williams, a podcast
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dedicated to the art and storytelling of costume design
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and film and television. I'm your host Spencer Williams.
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For today's episode I am genuinely thrilled to say that
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we are welcoming one of the true legends of costume design into
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the costume house. The iconic then comparable the
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Jenny Bevan. Yes, that Jenny Bevan, the CAMI
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award-winning designer behind Mad Max Fury, Rd.
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Cruella, A Room of a View, The King's Speech, Ever After, A
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Cinderella Story, Furiosa, and so many more films have shaped
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how we understand character and a world building through
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costume. Today I'm honored to be joined
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by Jenny to talk about her most recent collaboration with
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director Nicholas Hitner, The Choral starring Ray Finds.
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Set during World War One, the film follows a small English
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Choral Society whose adult male members enlist, leaving the
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formidable Dr. Guthrie to turn to the locals to try and
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rebuild. What unfolds is a moving story
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about discipline, music and camaraderie as the joy of
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singing collides with the looming reality of war and
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conscription. It's a conversation about
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restraint, period authenticity, emotional storytelling, and how
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costume quietly supports some of the most tender moments in
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cinema. Then, of course, there is no way
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I'm going to let Jenny leave here without talking about some
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of her previous work. We talked about her work in the
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Mad Max universe and many other films Jenny has worked on that
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you'll just have to tune in for. We have so much to talk about.
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So without further ado, let's step inside the costume house.
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I am so happy to be here with someone whom I've long admired
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and we've talked about quite a bit on the podcast.
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Please welcome the one and only costume designer, Jenny Bevan.
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Welcome to the podcast, Jenny. Thank you so much for being
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here. Thank you very much for inviting
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me. Well, I'm so excited to talk
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about the Coral. It is such a beautiful film and
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it really was quite touching. And so before we dive into the
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costumes, though, I'd love to surf the bigger picture because
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knowing you and the way you approach your films, I know you
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don't just I want to see you're selective, but I know you don't
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just take any film you like to pick films that are that are
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mean something that you believe in the script and the story.
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So what was it about the Coral that made you want to be part of
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this film? Well, it's not every day you get
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a script sent from Alan Bennett and it's not every day you get a
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phone call from Nicholas Heitner.
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And I mean, that combination is pretty wonderful.
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And I just read it and I could see it and it just meant
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something to me. But it's very, very low budget.
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We did it on extremely little time and money, but it was just
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one of those wonderful experiences.
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And I had a feeling it was going to be when we started.
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And Nick's, I'd never worked with Nick before, but he is an
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incredible director and he just holds us all together and he's
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very collaborative and, and incredibly clear and organized.
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So we knew we, we could do it. But I think when that thing came
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through, I was just like, Oh my God, Alan Bennett's been a hero
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of mine forever. And I had met him and I do, I do
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know his partner Rupert, but you know, I'd never actually worked
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on an Alan Bennett script. So it was very, very special.
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Right. And collaboration between the
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director and a costume designer is clearly very important.
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So can you talk about working with Nicholas Hytner on this
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film and what that collaboration looked like getting started,
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what the idea of what the coral was going to look like?
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I think it's a very, I mean it's a very clear period, it's very
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clear situation. They are a small coral society
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in Yorkshire but very proud of themselves.
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They're in Milltown in 1916. People did not have many
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clothes. I mean, I grew up in the 50s in
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London. We didn't have many clothes, not
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like now, you know, it was much, much more focused in a way.
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So we had extremely little money, but in a way, by only
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giving each character maximum 2 outfits and sometimes only 1
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1/2. It requires a truth because they
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would have worn similar things every day.
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And of course, I gave accessories so you could, you
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know, change the look and. But it just, it just worked out
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brilliantly because of the way it was written.
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The characters were incredibly clear and it was beautifully
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cast with of course a lot of Nick's colleagues from theatre
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as well as the films he's made. But he came in on, I think it
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was like the second day of prep and we did a page turn on the
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script where you literally go through it and page by page.
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And he talked about characters and I would talk about
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characters and, and I put some stuff on the stand, I think by
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then on a mannequin from the Cos prop stock where we had our
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little office. And he was just so delighted by
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the look. I mean, I could see it in sort
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of Grays and Blues with some brown.
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It just had to be in Yorkshire and, um, I found great stuff to
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show the characters on the stand and he just said, oh, this is
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more than I'd expected. And I thought, well, like,
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that's, you know, it's what I do.
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I put stuff on the stand to show a director.
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Can you explain that too? I've I've, I don't see a lot of
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costumes assignors do that, but you put clothes on almost like
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on mannequins or. Stands, which I find that the
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best because clothes are three-dimensional.
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People are three-dimensional. I don't do costume drawing
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because I think that's two-dimensional and they look
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maybe very nice on a wall, but they have nothing to do with my
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sort of storytelling. When I'm story getting the story
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together for the character, I do it with mood boards.
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I do research and I do the mood boards, you know, print off
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stuff now from the Internet and, and make actual boards with it.
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Just pin up stuff so you've got a real sense of where we're
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going in in the room. And then I find best, rather
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than use what we call a fit model, so another person of the
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same dimension, they bring their body language.
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So it's actually better to simply take a mannequin and
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dress that up and I accessorize them.
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I put a hat on and maybe, you know, an umbrella under their
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arm and a bag and make them a person.
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And that's, I find that very satisfactory because a film like
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The Coral, actually many films we do, we can't afford to make
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much. So you do it from stock, good
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stock. But then that starts lovely
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because it's been around and it's got a life.
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You're not using brand new things for a Milltown in
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Yorkshire in 1916. It's all old clothes.
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And I mean it's, it's just the way I've always done it.
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We did it with Merchant Ivory. Something like Fury Rd.
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I do very differently because we're working with stuff that
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would have had a purpose, would have been around, would have
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lasted the apocalypse. So we're working in a different
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way, but I still get bundles of stuff together and put it on the
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stand. It's just a brilliant way of
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showing a director or an actor where you're going.
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And so I did that for Nick and he really appreciated it.
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And then obviously the other wonderful thing in this modern
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age is when you're doing the fitting with the actor, you
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photograph them and you can send it off to the director and they
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see everything you're doing. So they're no surprises and they
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can comment. And you know, and I mean, Nick's
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characters were set well. Alan Bennett's characters were
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so clear and Nick's casting was so clear.
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It wasn't easy, but it wasn't difficult because they were
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wonderful to to dress. And as we said, The Coral takes
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place in New Yorkshire town in 1916, and this is a community
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that's deeply affected by the war, yet they're still searching
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for hope and a sense of normalcy, which really the Coral
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society plays a big role in that, helping them all try to
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find a sense of balance and normalcy.
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So when it came to your research, and I've always wanted
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to talk to you about your research process, I feel like
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what we're when you're all trying to find a set of rules
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for all these characters you're talking about.
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They don't have a lot of clothes.
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What were like the set of rules you're applying to all these
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characters in terms of these are clothes that weren't calling
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attention to themselves, unlike some other films that maybe you
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might have done like a a never an ever after.
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So to say, what were some of the rules you would set for these
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characters? I just wanted everyone to be
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completely real, unbelievable. So you didn't notice.
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It just felt right and I was very pleased.
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I think they did. They all looked, you didn't
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really think about them. They wore what they were they
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and, and that for me for this film was the right way of doing
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it. But at the same time I was
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terribly pleased with some of the colours and the Blues.
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And there's almost quite clear pale greens that stood out in
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that wonderful set Peter Francis did, which was the rehearsal
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room. That was a built set and
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beautifully lit by Mike Ely. So sometimes things happen a
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little bit not quite what you're expecting.
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And, and the Blues was sort of rather good in in that space.
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And I was awfully pleased when I saw also how how they'd been
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sort of distributed around the room, which I had nothing to do
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with. That was our first AD.
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And Nick, but yeah, it, I mean, you just I, I work by instinct
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too. I don't overthink things when
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someone comes in. Well, when I So what I do, I go
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to Cos prop costume house. I've worked with forever with
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John and by John Bright, who was my partner for years in work.
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And I go down the rack that's appropriate to the period and I
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pull stuff off onto another rack and sort of start to make almost
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like a notebook with the clothes and think, oh, that might really
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work on, you know, this older crazy lady or that might be a
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little bit smarter for Missus Bishop, who obviously makes a
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bit more money on the side or, you know, And so I have this
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sort of, and then when I get the actor's name and then I know
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their measurements, I can then refine to see if if there's any
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way it will fit. And I have these sort of
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sections and so when the actor comes in, I've done quite a lot
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of prep on it so I'm not overwhelming them with the
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amount of clothes I've got to offer.
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And then we start trying things on and that's when it happens.
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When you actually put real clothes onto a real person, you
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know whether you're right or wrong.
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Interesting. Normally the actor does as well
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and unless I was very unusual that we don't know together and
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sometimes they'd say, oh, it's a bit boring, isn't it?
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Or this is great and and absolutely you have you listen
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to them because it's a collaboration.
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It's not all about me. Right.
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If you know all about them and it's all about us.
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Well, Alan Bennett, as you said, wrote the story and seems to
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have had a very strong influence on the film as well, even
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visiting the set during production.
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So did his presence have any shape perspective on this film
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at all in your approach to the costumes in this film?
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No more than any other author except he is an icon.
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You know, he's a national treasure, I think we say here.
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And he's had such an extraordinary career.
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So when he did come, it was very exciting.
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And I was a bit, I was a bit sort of kept back and then said
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you've got to come and say hello to Alan.
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So I sort of trotted over and sat next and he told me this
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wonderful story that because I said to him, you know, it's
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fantastic that you read this in this period and about the
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Milltown and people not having many clothes said, Oh yes.
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He said, my father who was a butcher, he had two suits, 1 was
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my suit, the other was my other suit.
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And it was such a lovely little story that just reinforced.
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He said you're absolutely right to not give them too many
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clothes and and I think he was quite overwhelmed when he saw it
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because we're all at the premiere in London and he was
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really, really thrilled I think by what we'd all done with it,
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with his story. Yeah.
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I mean, that's, I mean, that's all you need sometimes.
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So all you need makes everything.
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I mean the whole the whole experience makes every reason
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you do this job worthwhile. Right.
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You actually mentioned John Bright and I was going to ask
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you next about your collaboration with John Bright
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and Coscrop because I've, I've heard this reoccurring
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collaboration with John Bright. So I was hoping you could shed
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some light on what that collaborations look like over
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the years. Well, it really started way back
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in 19, probably 83. I've known him a little bit.
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I've mainly done theatre, opera and ballet up until that point
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when I sort of moved sideways into film.
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Not my choice. It sort of happened but through
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a friend and and getting to know Merchant Ivory, but I didn't
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really know him. And then in maybe it was even
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earlier, we did a film called The Europeans and I was the
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assistant to Judy Moorcroft and John provided all the costumes
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for that. And he actually came out when we
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shot a big scene in Boston. And I got to know him a little
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bit then slightly in awe of him and he was felt like a real
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enigma. Anyway, moving forward, I ended
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up doing the Bostonians because Judy Moorcroft went to do
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Passage to India for David Lean and they worked without sign and
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Ismail just turned to me and said you will do it.
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I've become part of the Merchant Ivory family by then.
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And of course, Cos prop I, I found John incredibly helpful
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and, you know, and we got everything together and he said,
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I'm coming out with you to, I think we started Newport Rd.
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Island. And we started with one of the
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scenes where it's a sort of party.
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The young girl is giving a, a big speech.
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So everybody's dressed sort of really smartly and everyone was
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sort of saying, oh, Jenny, it looks amazing.
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It's an 1870s is a very spectacular period.
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It's going to look great. If you've got rich people in
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that situation, it's going to look great.
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And I thought I it does look great.
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I agree, But I did not do this on my own.
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John Bright has been amazing and I said to him, I think we did
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this together and I think we should take a Co credit and he
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was really happy and Merchant Drive very, very happy about it
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because they were great believers in collaboration and
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that started it. And after that I think we did
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about 12 films together and it was the happiest collaboration.
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I'm still, I mean we're still terrific friends, but I have
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gone off to do rather wacky things and he's still running
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Cos prop and well, he's sort of semi retiring, but I hope he
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doesn't because I don't think that's good for anyone.
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But I think he needs, you know, calm down a bit because he works
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so hard. People rely on him.
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But I will. I'm not seeing him this Sunday.
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I saw him last week. We did a talk for the Fashion
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and Textile Museum about our match and tyre free work.
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And I do see him as often as possible.
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He stepped up this fantastic foundation for children both so
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they can learn about film and culture and stuff.
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Disadvantaged kids in southeast England.
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But I'm doing something for that them on Monday.
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But he won't be there. But yeah, he's he's one of my I
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mean, he's taught me so much. And what used to happen was when
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Cos prop shut at 5:30 at the end of the day, I'd make tea and
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we'd sit with our cups of tea and we would do a bit of our own
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work, you know, and he'd have found stuff that I wouldn't know
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where. I mean, he had stuff squirreled
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away in those buildings. And I would be the very much the
16:41
organizer, the storyteller, and together we would put stuff on
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the stand and, you know, decide what we were doing and where we
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were going and get the pittings ready and all that stuff and,
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and just work together for maybe an hour, sometimes a couple of
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hours. So we did that at the end of
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the, of the regular working day. But then in the day, I'd also be
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pulling stuff and organizing it for for us.
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Right. Yeah, it's a very special
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collaboration that we're. All better for I mean, he's
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still it's funny. We've always done the most
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ridiculous things at the same time, Like we both go out and
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buy a new car. It's going to be the same car,
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or they're both be the same make or we say the same thing at the
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same time, or we both go and buy a coat.
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I don't know. We, it's just like, just
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terrible twins, really. I love that.
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Well, we got Gay 2 together sometime on the podcast too.
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Well, so we were talking earlier about the the people of this
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town in Yorkshire and how they don't like to stand out.
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And I don't think anyone necessarily stands out in this
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town but Ray Ray finds character Doctor Guthrie.
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If anyone were going to stand out a little bit, it would be
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his character. And while the costumes overall
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aren't meant to stand out, his character does stand out a
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little bit as an outsider because he's someone who's
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deeply immersed in German culture, art, music.
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So what was it like working? First of all, with the great Ray
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finds who I have a deep crush on, which I think.
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It's really. Probably quite normal for most
18:13
people. And just what did you do to
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like, subtly set his character apart from everyone who kind of
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walks in as this this presence that everyone is a little, you
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know, a little mysterious to most people.
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But he still has this very professional presence that
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everyone kind of looks up to at the end.
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Well, he will bring something. I mean, he, I've never known an
18:34
actor work harder and many actors work really hard at the
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park. I mean, he worked so hard to be
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the person he is. If he takes on a role, he's
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going to do it 100%. I have worked with Rafe before
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and sort of vaguely know him over quite a lot of years.
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And what I've thought about Doctor Guthrie was he had been
18:53
in Germany. I wanted to have a suit that
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looked like it could have been made in Germany.
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And I don't know why, but that belted sort of Norfolk jacket
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thing, it is an English suit, but it it, I believed it, that
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it could have been made or bought in in Germany.
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And again, he only has that suit and then the black outfit he
19:15
wears for performing. And I don't think he even has a
19:19
coat. He has a hat.
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He doesn't have a coat at all. So he's very, very simple.
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And obviously he's come back and he's playing in the Queen's
19:30
Hotel, so he hasn't got a vast amount of money.
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But Rafe brings such presents to the role, and he probably gives
19:40
those costumes what makes them special.
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You know, it's Raifs physical body language, his way of
19:49
acting, his incredible charisma and his extraordinary
19:54
believability. And what I loved about him in
19:57
this was it was quite restrained.
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So when they're all singing really badly in their auditions,
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he doesn't sort of, it's just a sort of wince, you know?
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And his eyes just, you think, oh God, you know, he's so, he's so
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funny and so gentle and, and so passionate in the role.
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He's, he's quite challenging to work with because he is so
20:21
incredibly dedicated and professional and you have to get
20:25
it absolutely right. But he's I, I absolutely love
20:28
him. I would work with him anytime,
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you know, I find him very special.
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And you always say it's going to be good over Ace, innit?
20:38
Right. I mean, even to the Choral
20:39
Society, I was watching it at home and I was like, you guys
20:42
need to get together because I know he's going to charm you by
20:45
the end of this film, so might as well fall in line.
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I just know how he works so. He's he's great.
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I've done very small things with him and I've actually never have
20:57
done anything big money. I don't think it's always been.
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I've done theatre with him and a tiny thing almost just for
21:05
someone who funds here's a quite a rich man, but he about every
21:09
10 years makes film which he finds himself from Rafus in the
21:12
first one I did. And then I've sort of done all
21:15
sorts of bits and bobs with him. So I've just known him for a
21:18
long time and I'm very, very fond of him.
21:21
Right. Well, Speaking of theatre,
21:23
towards the end of the film, the Cruel Society stage full
21:26
production of The Dream of Drunkenness, complete with their
21:30
own adaptations, including costumes, which, you know, to
21:34
everyone's surprise, this is not something that typically
21:36
involves costumes. So it kind of felt like you were
21:39
designing almost like a little musical within the film itself.
21:44
So talk about that experience where you know, this is
21:47
something that the Choral Society was not comfortable
21:50
with. Well, I think Elgar wasn't
21:53
comfortable with it, but I think the Choral Society were very
21:55
comfortable with it. I mean Nick, I think he felt
21:59
that although it is a wonderful piece of music, incredible, it
22:05
needed something else for a film that you've just added in.
22:08
And also I think he was really keen to just show the horror of
22:13
war. But in AI mean the whole thing
22:16
in that film is there's all these incredibly powerful
22:18
emotions, but it's not thrust in your face that always done
22:23
subtly. So they I think, mean more and I
22:27
think the way we did the end. But he, I think he really felt
22:31
that it was, it could have been a bit boring if you're doing it
22:34
with a basically amateur chorus and it's on film.
22:38
I think the dream of John chosen the Albert Hall or something is
22:41
different, you know, and of course you just hear it, but but
22:44
this was something different. And because of the powerful
22:47
endless MHR, they were going off to war and they were going to be
22:51
slaughtered. I think he felt we should do
22:55
this. And I think it gave it a lovely
22:58
sort of twist that again, it was the young man, the young men who
23:02
were dying and the obviously they couldn't.
23:06
They had a, you know, string trio, a piano and a small
23:11
Salvation Army band. They did not have the full
23:13
orchestra and they were ramshackle Choral Society who
23:17
were did end up singing very well.
23:19
But you know, it was still it was could never be.
23:22
I mean, it goes on for two hours or something.
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Well, maybe not, but you know, you couldn't do the whole thing.
23:28
You couldn't ever have rehearsed it in, that's the amount of time
23:31
he had had it been the whole thing so but.
23:35
It did really tie the whole film visually together with all them
23:38
in their costumes and the whole idea of the devastation of this
23:42
war with that moment, them in their costume.
23:44
So I'm. Glad you said that.
23:46
Way. So another friend said, oh, it
23:48
felt a bit like only one. I mean, most people I know
23:52
absolutely loved it. Many of my friends have seen it
23:56
more than once. But just the odd one said, oh,
24:01
you know, it felt a bit like a, a director suddenly wanting to
24:05
do a Western thing. And I thought, it's a shame you
24:08
thought that, but you know, you are actually entitled to your
24:11
own opinion. Absolutely.
24:13
I absolutely love doing that. I mean, it wasn't terribly
24:15
difficult. We had the uniforms and we had
24:19
bandages and you know it it, we did it rather fast because we
24:24
actually, it was the only day, last day of shooting almost,
24:27
when we'd had terrible rain but we had no weather covers.
24:31
So we had to wait out the rain. And then it Nick had to do it
24:35
really fast and had a brilliant idea at the end that when it
24:40
finishes you'd do it for real. So basically put three cameras
24:45
on it and they finish it, they come down and they greet
24:49
everybody, just greeted, you know, people as he would at the
24:52
end of the performance. And he just shot it for about 10
24:54
minutes and ended up with everything he needed, which I
24:57
thought was really clever. And to wrap up, talking about
25:00
The Coral, I know you grew up personally in a musical family
25:04
and are quite musical in yourself, I believe.
25:07
And this film speaks so beautifully about the healing
25:11
power of music. So I was wondering if you might
25:14
talk a bit about that connection and how music personally and
25:17
creatively resonates with you in a project like The Coral.
25:22
It was interesting actually because when I first heard The
25:24
Dream of Drum Cheers and I listened to it on YouTube, I
25:27
wasn't very taken with it. Later I heard I heard a 1968
25:33
recording of Adrian Bolt in Coventry Cathedral.
25:36
It's on YouTube with Peter Peers, Janet Baker and John
25:39
Shirley Quirk and I absolutely got it.
25:42
It was like this is what it is and Peter Peers is slightly
25:45
reedy voice is so perfect for Durant tears and I'm now become
25:50
rather obsessed and I listen to it quite a lot.
25:52
So that was a very interesting passage.
25:57
I always like the bits we chose or they chose George Fenton and
26:01
Nick for the what we use in the film.
26:05
I mean, music is I think the most powerful of the arts.
26:07
I love music. I wish I played a terrible
26:11
cellist, but I love it when we do it.
26:14
We do it in the family. We do a little bit of my
26:16
sister's very good amateur fiera player, my brother's very good
26:20
amateur violinist and my other cousin is a very good Fortis.
26:23
So I'm the sort of one that plunks along on the bottom
26:27
hopefully, but I can count so. But it's such joy playing music,
26:34
even if you're bad. And I think it's something every
26:37
child should do in school. And it doesn't matter what sort
26:40
of music, any music that appeals.
26:43
So I'm a huge musical advocate and in my own life I listen to a
26:51
lot of early music. I love baroque, I love counter
26:54
tenors, Phillip Cheruski, Yeson Davis, I love Letter Sandra and
26:59
Thomas Stamford, who I got to know in Salts book this year.
27:04
I do try and listen to concerts. I don't really see many films.
27:08
I prefer live if I'm going out to see something.
27:11
I'm a live theatre, live music person.
27:15
That's interesting. Opera just I mean it's just my
27:17
choice really. But so the, the whole film was
27:20
terribly important to me and its message and I'm, I'm just sad it
27:25
hasn't. I had more recognition.
27:27
Most of my friends, I mean, even someone today just came up to me
27:30
and said, Oh my God, I loved it, you know, and my mother loved it
27:34
and, and my, and it seems all ages.
27:37
So there's a real a real love for the film.
27:41
Yeah, I think it's just a result of us being in this broken
27:45
studio system that just puts money in all the wrong places it
27:49
feels like all the time. I think a lot of that, but
27:52
obviously what I'm incredibly lucky also a costume designer
27:57
and working in the industry is the priority I've been asked to
28:00
do. So I do go from, you know, the
28:03
Outback in Australia doing Furiosa to the coral, to various
28:08
other things I've done this year, which some which actually
28:10
have come to nothing because for various reasons, but all very
28:15
buried. And then to be asked by Alex
28:17
Scarland to do a film about a computer game, it's like, whoa,
28:21
okay, that's a challenge. Well, actually, I mean, that
28:24
kind of leads me to what I wanna talk about next.
28:27
If you have a bit more time, we talk about you on the podcasts
28:30
all the time and I would love to ask you about some of your
28:32
previous films. Do.
28:34
OK, great. Well actually, I mean, we've
28:37
we've done 5. This is our, I think our fifth
28:40
episode about a Jenny Bevan film.
28:41
That's the most of any other costume.
28:43
Designers how? Wonderful.
28:44
We did. Our first episode was Cruella.
28:47
That was our very first episode. We did Mad Max, obviously
28:51
Inferiosa, Ever after the Coral and there's another one which
28:56
I'll I'm sure I'll remember. But let's actually start.
28:59
We have to talk about the Mad Max films because to me, I just,
29:02
I love them so much. So we spent a lot of time
29:06
discussing George Miller and Mad Max universe on this podcast.
29:09
And like you just said, you've done a wide variety of films.
29:13
I think it's no secret that for a while you were like the go to
29:16
designer for period films, right?
29:19
Absolutely. Yeah, clearly, Mad Max Fury Road
29:22
to me was just always inside you.
29:24
And it was just like we were just waiting for, like, where
29:26
was this moment, you know? So can you talk about?
29:29
Like. Right.
29:30
Like how did this come to be? Like what did you feel like you
29:33
were being typecasted for a long time where we're like, did you
29:36
even feel it or did you were, were you waiting for that
29:38
moment? That's why I've always wanted to
29:40
ask you, OK? I've always rather let life
29:43
happen because I've been incredibly lucky.
29:47
I mean, certain tragedies have certainly happened.
29:49
I'm not saying it's been ridiculous, but in my life, but
29:53
I've sort of had AI think a pretty lucky run and
29:56
particularly with my career, which has been not quite what I
30:01
expected, but because I want to be a set designer in theatre or
30:05
opera, not a, you know, costume designer in film.
30:07
But hey, here I am. And I love it because I'm a
30:12
storyteller. It's not about because it's
30:15
storytelling, which is why when you're suddenly asked to do so,
30:19
it all happened because I'd done Alexander again.
30:22
That was a bit of AI. Call them rescue missions.
30:25
I've done rescue missions all my life, in bed, theatre and in in
30:29
film, but for Oliver Stone and there was a producer called Ian
30:33
Smith and then when it came to Fury Rd. he was one of George
30:39
Miller's producers and he and the costumes that had always
30:45
done those. Norman Morrisso was quite old
30:48
and I think quite unwell, did not want to spend another year
30:52
of her life in Namibia. She's a hard.
30:55
One to do, you know. I mean, she was, I don't know
30:57
how well, but it's a really tough one.
31:00
Namibia, wonderful country, but tough.
31:02
And Ian suggested I might be good because he knew I was good
31:08
on big films like Alexander. I coped well in deserts and all
31:12
that. So he got flown over to
31:14
Australia to meet George and we got up and I got the job.
31:20
And I think the thing was that George just saw me as someone
31:24
who was quite, I mean, by that time I had done a few things
31:28
like Alexander. So it wasn't just bonnets and
31:31
corsets as they used for Merchant Ivory.
31:34
But so I did. So I started and it's
31:40
storytelling. So it doesn't really matter
31:43
whether your story is in 1860 or some 40 years into after we are
31:48
now because also George Miller, he writes them.
31:53
He's an Otter in the true sense. He writes them, he generates
31:56
them. He, he kind of knows what they
31:58
should look like. And you know, it's you're
32:01
fulfilling his vision. And of course, I added quite a
32:06
lot of my own stuff into it. But you've got a very clear
32:11
guide in George, a very wonderful man too.
32:14
So it's not so tricky. And the story, again, he's very
32:20
clear about where stuff comes from.
32:23
So obviously it's got to be something that would have
32:26
survived the apocalypse. It's something they can find and
32:31
something because it's so tricky and difficult.
32:34
And they might have a bit of fun with the clothing.
32:37
A lot of it is protection, like the carapace.
32:40
Sir Morton Joe's wears this because his body is rotting.
32:43
They're all dying anyhow, you know, toxic diseases due to the
32:50
fumes that must have been caused by whatever it was that caused
32:53
the apocalypse. One imagines nuclear, but who
32:56
knows? They don't, you know, they're
32:59
desperately trying to find food and water all the time and
33:05
there's they use stuff to decorate their clothes that they
33:08
can no longer really need. You know, like an awful lot of
33:11
cutlery. So it it's just it's.
33:15
So much fun. Very clear because it's George
33:19
and I found it, you know, it took me a bit of getting into
33:24
and I had a lot of help from my crew who'd done them before,
33:27
particularly Mel Dykes, who was our supervisor and had been with
33:31
George for Thunderdome, so she really knew how he worked.
33:35
And Leslie Vanderbilt, who was also the makeup artist who'd
33:38
known George since she was 15, so.
33:42
And he'd really helped her and looked after her when she was a
33:45
child. But so I had a lot of people
33:48
really on my side just to make sure, because it was different.
33:52
But at the same time, it was storytelling.
33:54
So we talked about breakdown and aging and dying a lot on the
33:57
podcast. And to me, like Mad Max and
34:00
Furious are kind of like breakdown Bible a little bit,
34:04
right? So yeah, we don't like to ask
34:06
costume designers what their favorite costumes are because
34:09
that will be keeping you prisoner all day long.
34:12
But is there like a favorite like thing that you guys had to
34:15
like beat up or favorite piece of junk that you guys found for
34:19
Mad Max? They're like, wow, this is just,
34:21
I know this is so random, but you got to sneak it into the
34:24
film. They're like no ones even gonna
34:25
know what this is but. I don't think anything like that
34:29
happened. I mean, there were two.
34:31
I really enjoyed the garden fork that Tom wears on his face.
34:34
You know, I was really fond of that, and that was my idea.
34:37
That's a. Good one.
34:39
But they were sort of really interesting moments.
34:41
We're in Namibia, which is obviously an quite a, I mean
34:46
it's a beautiful country, very underpopulated, which is
34:49
wonderful, incredible deserts, wonderful landscape.
34:52
But they do have quite a palm and mentality, which means that
34:58
not any did they all enlarge in size because obviously we were
35:01
catering for them. So our crew, you know, would eat
35:04
everything insight and put a load more in my pockets for
35:06
later. Because that is how it is when
35:09
there's when sometimes you have very little.
35:13
But also they got terribly upset because we bought new boots,
35:18
Army boots, because, I mean, they had to be in good footwear,
35:21
all the stunts and everything. And we had to age them.
35:25
So they would sit there with a greater literally grating away
35:28
at these brand new army boots, weeping because it seemed so
35:31
wrong to ruin something that was terribly good.
35:34
And because our crew was a huge amount of of local talent, young
35:40
people who made beautiful props and made a lot of stuff for the
35:44
tourist market, very clever beadwork LED workers.
35:47
And then our older women were very fine stitches, sewers.
35:51
And then we had the breakdown team who were just good people
35:56
who you know, there's a lot of craft is made there for the
36:00
tourist market. So it was a fascinating mixture
36:04
of people and we had a wonderful guy who actually which drove a
36:09
taxi, but also as rather clever metal worker in this, you know,
36:12
it was it was a fantastic mix of of people who were sort of
36:17
perfect for Mad Max because it was all such a do it yourself,
36:22
you know, find it whatever it, use it forever, mend it, do it
36:26
again society. So they kind of really
36:29
understood it. But the Breakdown, I think we
36:33
had Alex Carey from England and then we had, so he did about
36:38
three or four months and then the guy came from South Africa
36:41
who was also brilliant. I mean, they're both top of
36:43
their game in Australia. We had an amazing one called
36:47
Zana who ran our Breakdown team. They call it Art Finishing in
36:52
Australia. So it's a very nice title and
36:56
she ran an incredible Art finishing.
36:59
I like it very much. I'm.
37:02
Going to start using that. Well, I could talk about Mad Max
37:06
all day, but another episode we did, gosh, like 3 years ago, we
37:11
talked about Ever After and we had people write in emails after
37:15
emails talking about how much they grew up on Ever After and
37:19
so much loved the costumes. And I had never seen it until we
37:21
talked about it on the podcast. And Angelica Houston and Drew
37:26
Barrymore as Danielle, that ball scene where she, Danielle comes
37:30
out in the wings. The wings.
37:33
Can you just talk about that scene in particular?
37:35
Do you remember putting together that big ball scene and just how
37:39
grand it was? People love that scene.
37:43
Yes, I do remember, but it's actually a very long time ago.
37:46
I mean, we are talking probably nearly 30 years ago.
37:50
She was 11 or 12 and she came out.
37:53
Obviously we were in middle of France.
37:56
But my memory isn't great. You know, the trouble is I've
38:00
done so many things that I have little, little memories of that.
38:04
But like the fact our electricity, God knows that must
38:08
have been a health hazard in that we have this deserted
38:10
Poirot factory as our wardrobe base with the ghost of geese
38:14
past. It was pretty unpleasant.
38:17
But we did that at out for I think just a little way outside
38:21
of Salat. Beautiful, credible Chateau.
38:27
And I do remember we the whole thing with wings.
38:32
It was so and Andrew Dunn lit it and he just made it look magical
38:39
and I said my God, he said, I said that looks incredible.
38:42
He said, oh, I did that for you. They were so beautiful.
38:45
The wings, I thought, you know, just so love.
38:50
And of course, the horses heads for the crazy ugly step sisters.
38:55
Right. Angelica could have been a
38:57
better wicked stepmother. She's great fun as well.
39:00
But she was really good, yes. I mean, it was all a little bit
39:04
last minute and there were definitely problems with it, but
39:11
at the same time I do remember really enjoying it and being
39:16
very proud of it. But that scene, I mean, it's
39:23
funny, I, I had a great team and the team I'm actually working
39:26
with on the Southwick Skullen project.
39:28
So we've been been together since then.
39:29
That was the first one they did for me.
39:31
And Joe Popudevski did incredible things for the crowds
39:35
and we had a lot of, we had a lot of stock to play with, but
39:38
we were in the middle of nowhere, France.
39:41
Wonderful for locations, but to get any extra costumes went
39:45
either going to Paris or Liam or or London.
39:49
But somehow or other, it just worked.
39:52
Yeah, yeah, it. Was very believable as French
39:57
Renaissance I believe. Yes, it was sort of, well, it
40:00
was Leonardo. So we hit round 14.
40:02
Whatever Leonardo is. I mean, there was only one that
40:05
you need to sort of well, I mean, it's all fictitious, but
40:07
that's such a set. Everybody knows he was whatever
40:10
period. It's four.
40:11
I can't remember 1430 it's. Going back to me now.
40:15
Yeah, it's a fun one. And then I'd be remiss if I
40:18
didn't bring up Cruella since it was our first podcast episode,
40:22
because we were getting ready to start the podcast.
40:24
Cruella was coming out and we're like, well, obviously that just
40:26
seems right. That will be our first.
40:28
Episode. So again, I think bringing up
40:31
music and London's 1970s punk movement, very Vivian Westwood,
40:36
it just feels right. I'm curious, what would you,
40:38
what was your work room looking like back then?
40:40
Were you all listening to like records?
40:43
How did your, and how does your team shift to so fluidly between
40:47
these eras? And like, are you all going to
40:50
libraries, listening to records? Are you scouring the Internet?
40:53
How do you how does your research process shift between
40:56
all these different genres and projects?
40:57
I'm embarrassed to say I remember the period very well.
41:01
77 I was, you know, I'd done quite a lot.
41:06
Were you punk rockers Any. Oh, so not, no, no.
41:09
I wasn't even a hippie. My sister was.
41:12
She's younger than me. I wasn't.
41:14
I I went through that phase as a teenager and I thought I'd got
41:18
to go away from classical music. And I did love The Beatles.
41:21
And to be honest, I still do. I think they're wonderful.
41:24
And I did go to a Rolling Stones concert in the Roundhouse
41:27
because I knew a roadie to do with it.
41:30
But that was about it. And then I retired back to
41:33
classical music. I don't remember.
41:35
I think everybody was on headphones, you know, because
41:37
everyone likes their own music and these things.
41:40
But we had a wonderful workspace at Shepperton and we were on the
41:43
Gainsborough building, so I had everything on one floor so I
41:48
could go around from where the extras or the crowd costumes
41:51
were and all that area through to all my different work rooms.
41:58
And it was just great because we did that incredibly fast.
42:03
We got a window of opportunity in Emma Stan's schedule.
42:06
So it was like go. And I remember thinking when I
42:10
was asked to do it, I thought, God, I'm not sure I can.
42:13
We had literally 10 weeks and I thought, I'm not sure.
42:16
And then Claire Sprague, my supervisor, who again is up with
42:19
me on this and was on over after said, Oh yes, we can, we can do
42:23
this and got an incredible crew together.
42:26
So yes, we did do it. He sure did.
42:29
He were very generous and I don't remember any money
42:33
restrictions, but we luckily, I mean, we didn't have time to
42:35
spend that much so we never went over budget.
42:38
But it felt like, you know, they knew it was a film about
42:43
clothing and to have money, but I loved it on the whole.
42:51
It got a bit tricky at the end, but that was another story and
42:54
I'm not entirely sure. I think I have my own theorists
42:58
as to why it got tricky, but at the beginning, so thrilled I was
43:01
doing it and the whole thing was going to happen, you know,
43:03
Otherwise, I don't know. I'm sure they would have found
43:08
many people who wanted to do it, but it was something to do at
43:11
that speed. You needed a bit of experience,
43:14
which I by that time had. And yeah, it was, it was.
43:20
But I did remember it. So obviously I wasn't doing a
43:24
recreation of 1977, but I knew bus stop and Bieber and all
43:30
those sorts of places and I never remember the names of
43:34
them. There were some extraordinary
43:37
designers. And of course the move was sort
43:40
of making it just Corolla ish. I, I, I'm very proud of it
43:46
actually, because it really was complete.
43:48
It was funny because whenever I did a Disney film, I did a few
43:51
like Nutcracker or. I was going to say Nutcracker is
43:54
the other episode that we. Did yeah, that was came.
43:56
Back to me. At the end, people would always
43:59
be saying, you know, they were going on to Cruella.
44:02
And I one day said, boy, is Cruella.
44:04
And they said, oh, it's, you know, it's 101 Dalmatians set in
44:09
the 70s. And about fashion, I thought,
44:11
oh, thank God, I'm not doing it. Hey, I'm so uninterested in
44:15
fashion. And of course, I end up doing
44:17
it, which is, you know, just desserts really.
44:21
But I did enjoy a huge amount about it and I think it looks
44:26
great. I'm really proud of it.
44:28
I think so too, and to the point of Cruella just kind of talking
44:33
about actors as well. Emma Thompson plays the Baroness
44:36
and if I'm not mistaken, Cruella marked your 4th collaboration
44:39
together after Howard's End, The Remains of the Day and Sense and
44:43
Sensibility. Film called Impromptu, which
44:48
might been Stencil Pine, Judy Davis about Shoshsand and Chopin
44:55
and it's a rather good funny film.
44:58
Impromptu it's called. Have a look.
45:01
OK, I'll check one and my first one together.
45:04
So then you all work together at least five times.
45:06
So I know you don't. Designers don't get to choose
45:09
casting, but why is the trust between a designer and an actor?
45:13
This relationship you have with someone like Emma Thompson so
45:16
important on a film like Cruella, which obviously you've.
45:19
You've now worked together quite a few times and obviously you
45:21
must have a good working relationship to work together so
45:24
much I. Think we have a really good
45:25
relationship. I mean, I don't, I've never
45:29
really hung out with actors, but if I did with anyone, Emma would
45:32
be one of them, you know, and I do know her and I have been an
45:37
up to her house and all that in, in Hampstead, so and used to go
45:40
and sit with her mum. I haven't had time recently
45:44
just, you know, I've actually been terribly busy and not in
45:48
the country. But I think it's luck that
45:52
we've, you know, I mean, she doesn't choose the designer and
45:55
I don't choose the actors, but it's just real luck.
45:58
And anytime I can work with them, I'm as happy as a clown.
46:01
And to wrap up later this year on a podcast, we'll be watching
46:05
Finally a room with a view, a classic of yours, featuring my
46:09
favorite actress, Helena Bonham Carter, and a comparable Dame
46:12
and Maggie. Wonderful.
46:14
We all miss terribly. For those who may have not seen
46:16
the film, what should they all expect and do you have any
46:19
particularly fond memories from that production?
46:23
Just to kind of tease the film before we all get to see it on
46:26
the podcast. Well, it was.
46:29
I suppose the Europeans was the first one of the Merchant Ivory
46:34
when they went into that period film genre.
46:38
But Room of the View was their first amazing success and I
46:42
think it just hit a moment when people wanted that kind of film
46:45
and were bored with either big action or whatever was going on
46:48
at the time. They were all so young and
46:51
unknown. Helena was all of 19 or
46:55
something. It was in those days in
46:59
Florence. Four of us dressed and undressed
47:03
everybody. John was hardly there, he was
47:06
back at Cosbrock. But there was me, William
47:10
Pearce, Eleanor Palluti doing the crowd dressing and
47:13
undressing them, and Sally Turner looked after everybody on
47:17
the set. These days you'd have a crew of
47:20
15 minimum, if not more. Even on a small film like The
47:24
Coral. We had a reasonable crew.
47:27
It wasn't huge and we doubled up a little bit on jobs.
47:30
But but then, I mean, literally, those scenes in Florence were
47:34
done with poor costumers. How we didn't die of tiredness.
47:39
I can't work it out. How we coped with, you know, all
47:45
those people. And it was hot.
47:46
So they got really hot and they were desperate to get out of
47:49
their corsets by the end of the day.
47:50
And it was me and Eleanor having to get them all out and put the
47:52
costume back on the rack in the same place because we were going
47:55
to use it the next day. Because basically they all have
47:57
one costume. And all the Italians are in
47:59
black. Because Jim loved the Alanari
48:02
photos, which are wonderful photos of that period taken in
48:06
Florence and they are black and white.
48:09
And so, and then we came to England, to the English section,
48:13
which was much more brown and soft.
48:16
But it was, I don't know, I, I remember being very tired but
48:23
always very happy. That was my funniest memory was
48:26
at the end of our shoot in England, at the end of the day
48:30
we were down in Kent in the house called Foxworth, which was
48:33
used as the country house. You know, it was like, can
48:37
anyone give Helena a lift back to London?
48:39
And I thought, you know, nowadays you wouldn't dare.
48:44
If take an actor in your own car, you're insured to do it,
48:47
not if they're working, you know.
48:49
Then it was all like, and I had an old Polo, you know, little
48:52
German Volkswagen car, probably rusty and full into bits.
48:56
But so I said I'll take Helen about.
49:00
She said it would take me to London Bridge station which is
49:02
completely unknown. Anyway we get to London Bridge
49:05
station and I said well I'll take you back up to Hampstead,
49:08
it's not that far and it was Sunday evening or something.
49:10
Oh no no, no, I'll be fine. We sat in the car for about two
49:13
hours talking about her future. Should she get to drama school?
49:16
Should she? And I think she had done her A
49:18
levels by that time. Should she go to university?
49:21
Should she just carry on acting? What should she do?
49:23
And I thought in that time I could have taken you 4 times up
49:26
and down to Hampstead. But I think we we are friends.
49:30
I mean, we do text each other quite a lot.
49:33
That's amazing. My daughter's worked with her
49:35
too, and we're all incredibly fond of each other.
49:37
I don't see anything like enough of her.
49:39
But it was a very special moment that talk with Helena in the car
49:44
about what what she should do and it's just lovely actually.
49:48
That's amazing. Well, she's incredible and I'm
49:51
so. Glad it is incredible.
49:54
Oh, but the other wonderful moment actually was the, you
49:56
know, the bit in the pond, the bathing bit where they're all
49:59
splashing about in the pond. I mean, again, I didn't know
50:02
what I was doing, but it was so cold.
50:05
It looks really sunny. But actually it was really cold
50:07
in the freeze and that and of course, I had nothing like
50:10
enough dressing gowns all on my own, trying to keep those boys
50:14
dry and warm in between takes. And I had a sort of tumble
50:18
dryer, I think on an extension cable.
50:21
And I'm sort of throwing things in and out of the tumble dryer.
50:23
I never worked so hard in my life.
50:25
And people say, oh, that must have been, you see that scene,
50:27
you know, they weren't wearing anything.
50:29
You have no idea how much work because again, I think in
50:34
England we had a few more people to help.
50:36
But to be honest, not really. We would pretty much on our own,
50:41
you know? Anyway, that's quite a funny
50:43
moment. So very well, I can't wait to
50:46
talk about it. We're on the podcast so for.
50:47
All do get me involved if you do ruin the view.
50:50
Yeah. Because I mean, it's a it's
50:52
quite a film and I'm again, yeah, I totally loved Real one
50:57
with John where we set it up together because the Bostonians,
51:04
obviously we we did do together, but he joined in in a way,
51:07
although he was incredibly important to it.
51:09
But rim of the fear. We really started the
51:12
collaboration of how we work together and and the happy
51:15
relationship and we still best friends.
51:17
But you know, right, don't we don't sort of talk to him.
51:22
I'm the coral. He's very interested in all my
51:24
fittings and everything. And we come in and give an
51:26
opinion. But yeah, it's.
51:30
And to wrap it up so I could let you go into the into the evening
51:36
after a career to span so many genres, eras and emotional
51:40
worlds, what so excites you when you read a new script?
51:43
What makes you say yes? I know you're working on this
51:45
exciting new film with Alex Garland about a exciting video
51:49
game that I might be familiar with and play on occasion, which
51:53
is quite different than The Coral, I'll say.
51:56
So clearly. Clearly there's something out
51:59
there that you see in these scripts that makes you say yes
52:02
out there. So I would love to hear what
52:03
that is to wrap up. Well, with the coral, there was
52:06
just no question. The people and the story with
52:09
Alex Garland, I've admired him for years.
52:11
So I was incredibly flattered that he would want me to do
52:16
something so out of my comfort zone, although he didn't know
52:19
that at the time, Although I said, I said, Alex, you know, my
52:23
son-in-law is going to buy a copy of it and we're going to
52:26
have a go. And he looked at me very hard
52:27
and he said it's very hard, you know, Jenny.
52:31
And I thought he doesn't think I'm clever enough, probably
52:35
right. So I haven't I've just looked at
52:37
YouTube because all the is so much about how to play it and
52:40
how to win and how to do this and, you know, incredible,
52:44
credible resource. So you can really see how it
52:48
works. And to be honest, I don't want
52:50
to play it. I'm just so not that kind of
52:52
thing, but it's fascinating and obviously he's written a script
52:57
for it, which is his own thing. And I've signed more Ndas than
53:02
you shake a stick out, so I won't tell you a single thing
53:05
about it. But the characters, I mean, we
53:08
are honouring 30 million gamers, so obviously there will be a
53:13
look that is like the game and that's giving nothing away.
53:18
Hey, I don't want people coming after me either.
53:20
I won't ask. No, no, no, I never want to come
53:22
up to you. No, I mean, it's able to exist
53:24
as a on a filmic format. So and I think I was just
53:31
intrigued, completely intrigued that he would want me.
53:36
I was thrilled. So I'm I think that was the
53:39
reason for that. And, and it's different.
53:41
I think by now I only really want to work with people I
53:43
really like, which on the whole they're pretty lovely, and to do
53:48
things that are different and challenging.
53:51
And I don't think I want to stop because I would like a little
53:56
more time. But I'm not sure what I do with
53:59
myself every day of the year if I didn't have some really
54:02
exciting thing to think about. But I found the coral as
54:06
exciting as I'm finding this, but incredibly different
54:10
obviously, both in scale and and story.
54:16
Right, well, for everyone listening and watching, please,
54:18
please, please go see The Coral. If it's still in theaters near
54:21
you, go see it. If it's not, rent it at home.
54:24
Such a great film. It's very beautiful, very
54:27
touching. Ray Finds is incredible.
54:29
The entire cast actually is quite moving, very touching.
54:32
Costume designer Jenny Bevin, I cannot thank you enough for
54:35
talking with me. This has been years in the
54:37
making and I hope you'll come back and talk with us more about
54:41
some of your previous films and this upcoming 1 when it comes
54:43
out because I'm a nerd and this is a pretty nerdy film so you
54:47
know, I'll have questions. Right, you get.
54:51
I would love to come back and talk to you, especially about
54:54
the thing I'm working out at the moment.
54:55
So let's see, let's see how it works.
54:58
But also I can talk about merchandising, films and all the
55:01
weird things I've done like care for Wellness.
55:05
You know, there's quite a lot of plenty of films out there, but
55:09
thank you very much, it's been really lovely.
55:12
The Costume House with Spencer Williams is a production of The
55:15
Art of Costume. This episode was hosted,
55:17
produced and edited by Spencer Williams.
55:19
To discover more conversations with the designer shaping film,
55:23
television and theater, visit theartofcostume.com or follow us
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55:29
And don't forget to connect with me on Instagram at host Spencer.
55:32
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