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Empowering the Next Generation of Leaders in the Disability Community · nondriver

• Keidra: I think it can be so liberating for disability communities are such a fantastic disability zine space. I always want to be able to kind of nurture that that space in that community and like encourage people to not feel like you have to make things in a particular way. Like and and you don't have to get permission from anybody to create a zine in the way that you want it to be and say what you want it to say. You don't have to wait for anybody. Anna: Welcome to Nondriver. Devin: Real stories about navigating the world from people who can't drive. Anna: I'm Anna Zivarts. Devin: And I'm Devin Silvernail. Anna: And today we're joined by Kidra Cheney. Kedra Cheney is a writer, narrative consultant, and program director at Disability Culture Lab. Kidra was born and raised in Chicago with a detour in Wisconsin during university. Kidra is also a lifelong non-driver. First, because she grew up using public transportation for mobility, and later due to a medical diagnosis. At Disability Culture Lab, Kidra leaves the Disability Rising Fellowship. Which supports disabled leaders in sharing their expertise through media and public storytelling. I'm so excited to hear more about this. I think that cultivation of leadership in the community is so important. so welcome. Keidra: Thank you so so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk about this. Anna: Well, my first question for you is as someone who grew up taking transit, what was the moment like when you realized driving was not gonna be an option for your mobility? Was there a a particular moment or was it just normal for you to be a a transit rider? Keidra: Yeah. that's a great question because I honestly have never really thought about it in that I grew up in a really transit aware household. my grandmother I my grandmother, my mother raised me. My grandmother never learned to drive. and navigated Chicago all the time. We would go to shopping together, we would go to church, we would you know, go all around the city and rely on public transportation. my mother also briefly when I was a child worked for the Chicago Transit Authority. Please do not ask me what she did there. I was too young to know. But so we always talked about public transit. Public transit was always kind of a a a center of our daily lives. And Chicago is, you know, thankfully better than a lot of places in terms of having a public transit infrastructure, not perfect, but you know, pretty good, comparatively speaking. So my, you know, my life was always centered around bus routes. Like we lived on the south side of Chicago where the bus routes were not as plentiful as in other like majority white neighborhoods. we talked about bus scheduling delays, in a great article that you wrote for disability culture labs blog. You talked about, Anna, you talked about the time tax. I didn't know there was a phrase for that, but we talk about that all the time. Like there was a delay that made you late for school, that made you late for work. If it was snowing or raining or whatever, like all these different things were how I centered the way that I thought about mobility and and moving around the city. and so it wasn't really I don't think I ever had a moment where I I thought, well, no, I'll I'll take that back. There was a point when I was in high school when folks were taking driver's lessons. And I was like, Well why would I do that? I can just take the bus. it was like I'd rather go hang out with my friends and not have to take driver's lessons and just take the bus and hang out with them. and so it it really wasn't until I think going to a school in Wisconsin that I saw I I took for granted that Chicago is a very transit-centered city. And I saw the barriers in going to living in a city in cities that did not have the public transit infrastructure that Chicago had. And I think that was probably the first time that I was like, okay. You know, when I make a choice on where to live as an adult, I want to live in a place with a public transit infrastructure. that's important to me. That's ideal for me. at the time, I was not I have a degenerative cornea disease and with vision loss, I did not have that at the time. So I wasn't thinking in terms of mobility in that way. but I was also undiagnosed. ADHD and I have a lot of like issues with just holding a lot of information and executive functioning. And I realize now in hindsight that I think that also played a role in my decision to not be a driver is my own issues with executive functioning. is probably a big reason why learning how to drive was not something that I wanted to do, but living in a city like Chicago, I had options that I didn't have to, you know, it wasn't so car dependent that I felt like I had no choice. I felt like I did have the choice to to not learn how to drive and not have it feel like a barrier and keeping me from the things that I I wanted to do that and I think that maybe people in non-public transit centered cities feel when they have to make that choice. Devin: You mentioned that when you went to school in Wisconsin that that's kind of really when you saw that other side of the coin when it comes to like how American cities or towns can be built. how did your mobility change then? Keidra: yeah, I think that's when I like I mentioned before, when I really noticed, you know, the the barriers in mobility. you know, Madison has a public transit system. It's very, very limited compared to Chicago and Beloit is a very small city, so it's pretty walkable. so and and it is a like a a pedestrian or sidewalk friendly town city. But it, you know, when it comes to going shopping, grocery shopping, or going to the doctor or doing things, you know, like that, I think that's when I really noticed, you know, the differences in mobility and in needing to rely more on friends or family or other people to help get me around. I mostly stayed, you know, close to bus lines or close to like grocery stores or close, you know, stayed close on campus in both cases. because it just, you know, made it easier for me to to navigate. But and I was kind of a quiet kid, so I didn't really do a whole lot of socializing that required me to go very far anyway. But I think that is I think that is when I started to realize how car dependent the world outside of what I knew was and how, you know, and when I started to seriously think about, okay, when I think about my future, am I going to learn how to drive or am I going to, you know, stick to a place where I know that there's public transportation? And so I think that that, you know, experiencing that was important for me because I think it It did end up playing a role in the future that I didn't know I had as somebody with vision loss. but thinking about it early, I think was I think made it easier when I did start to lose my vision. I still did start to think about mobility from the perspective of a disabled person. Anna: Talk to me about what sort of Chicago transportation is like. Is is transit access improving? I I know there's been a big restructuring of sort of the transit authority recently. Keidra: Yeah. Yeah, I love talking about this because there's just so much happening. just literally early, earlier this month, like September 1st, I think it was, we have a new public transit agency. it used to be the Regional Transit Transit Authority. It's now the Northern Illinois Transit Authority. And I'm feeling hopeful about that in that the existence of this agency is due to a lot of really solid grassroots advocacy. There's an organization called Bitter Street Chicago that was really, you know, leading the way and doing the advocacy for that restructuring and and you know saving us from a huge, huge, huge cuts in funding for public transit in the area and you know Better Street Chicago exists to do that advocacy. Access Living, which is a great disability rights advocacy group in Chicago, is doing great work to help keep this agency accountable. and so that really makes me hopeful that, you know, there's a a voice and a grassroots There's a lot of grassroots groups that are really active and really out there in the community, educating folks, doing a lot of work, and you know, making sure that this new agency will hear our voices and remain accountable to the city. And so that makes me really, really excited and hopeful about the future. And I think Better Street Chicago is just such a a great resource and organization that has done so much in these past few years. where there's still room to grow, it's kind of the same as it ever was. segregation, unequal resources in majority black and brown neighborhoods like the South Side and the West Side. since I was probably before I was born, the train system our our the elevator train, the L system, was supposed to be extended to the far south side of Chicago where I used to live. I now live on the north side. It has been literal decades, and that expansion is still being held up. Like this should have happened at least 40, 50, possibly years ago. And there's still not an extension to the far south side of Chicago where the folks who primarily use public transit to get into the city. And there's still a a halt on rail transit expansion that we're still waiting on for the city. And so there's still a lot of in terms of unequal resources in different parts of the city when it comes to bus and train access that is still egregious and I think still something that you know, I think remains the biggest issue with Chicago is that even with something like public transit, the city looks very different depending on you where you live, who you are, how much money you make. and that hasn't changed for decades. and something else that I think, you know, that I have a personal passion about that Both Better Street Chicago and Access Living have been very great about advocating for is sidewalk access. especially here in this very snowy city. sidewalk access really is, you know, it's not just a nice to have situation. It really does, you know, it's a barrier for folks to be able to get out of the house to access, you know. the doctor to access their jobs, to access you know, healthcare, or grocery stores. Like and both Access Living in Better Street Chicago have been really vocal about advocating for the city to clear the walks and for the past few years have really active campaigns around making sure that the streets are cleared in the winter and that the city makes that a a priority. and I feel like with every passing year I hear more and more people who aren't disabled, who aren't who don't necessarily have a direct vested interest in advocating for it, being educated about it and and you know, speaking up about it as well. And so, It's an issue. There's still room for growth. But again, I'm just really grateful that there's such a great grassroots advoc advocacy network of groups that are really doing the work around this. Anna: It's really cool. I mean, I do feel I point to Chicago often when when groups are like, where are there groups that are working together in and talking about disability in the transportation space? And that that work around sidewalks is something in Chicago that I point to a lot. And you know, I do think i like so many transportation advocacy, biking advocacy groups around the US can really, you know, not understand racial equity or disability access as part of their work and and not, you know. And and so yeah, it's n good to hear that you feel like that work is happening at least in some places in Chicago in the advocacy space. Devin: As a key member of the only strategic communications firm f by and for the disability community in the US, how how do you see the narrative changing around disability and access and mobility in general? are you seeing a change? Keidra: One thing that we talk about at Disability Culture Lab is the idea that all systems of oppression are disabling. We really do look at disability as not just one singular issue, but an issue that connects to all sorts of other issues like racial justice, environmental justice, queer and trans justice, reproductive justice. It's all connected and disability. And ableism is you know connected to all other forms of oppression and inequity. And I think now, especially in the past few years, since the start of the COVID pandemic in particular, I think we're really moving away from looking at disability and accessibility as an individual issue. And I think more people are educated and on have an understanding of disability as an issue of infrastructure, an issue of power, an issue of inclusion and belonging. And I think that when it comes to transit, you know, we're seeing more people again referencing your great article, Anna, mobility and is being seen more as an access issue. And that driving is no longer when people think of driving as the default for everyone, then you know People who are not drivers become the afterthought. And I think it's the same for disability and access. You know, disabled people understand that how communities are designed makes a difference in terms of how we participate in those communities. And so it really excites me to see disabled folks as not just being experts in disability, but as people who are impacted by transit, by you know, reproductive justice. All of these, you know, we're all impacted by so many different issues. And our role is to be able to speak as experts on all not only on our lives, but these broader issues as well. We're we're leaders that can help reshape these issues in addition to being impacted by them. Anna: I want to talk a little bit about your work with the Disability Rising Fellowship. I when I I I was poking around your website and and looking at this fellowship and was really excited by it. I think I, you know, part of the work that I in when I meet young people, in the work that I do, it can be really frustrating because people will graduate from school, you know, and and have some supports in and accommodations through school and then they graduate and Doors just aren't opening, right? That the they apply for internships, they apply for jobs, and they're just being turned away and turned away and turned away. And there's not any acknowledgement that the expertise and knowledge they bring is valuable and and it's worth that employer, you know, creating the space for people to to share that and and you know, get their access needs met. So I, you know, I I think there's so much untapped and and I don't want to like untap to sort of like, capitalist way of thinking about it. But like there's so much energy and knowledge among, you know, this generation of folks who graduates from school at at some level and then can't, can't figure out where to go from there. and and I, you know, I myself have found that most of my opportunities have come from self-employment. And I think that's what a lot of people find. Yeah. So talk to me about this fellowship and about sort of cultivating a leadership. Online that is among folks in the display community, yeah. Keidra: Thank you for asking about this because I so we are just about to launch our second year of the Disability Rising Fellowship. it is such an honor to be able to lead this fellowship and and my only wish is that we could do more and more and more and more cohorts. and we have hundreds and hundreds of fantastic applicants. Who are brilliant in leaders in their communities and experts in their issue area. And if I had a magic wand to be able to like offer this opportunity for like everybody that applies, I would do so because it's so, it's such a hard decision to be able to narrow down to such a small cohort. But yeah, I I feel like that's the hard thing, is that work. And you know, employment is often disabling as well for folks. It's very hard to be disabled and be able to show your expertise and you know demonstrate and be an advocate and do that in our current work environment. There's not a whole lot of opportunities to be able to like lead and also earn a living and also keep yourself alive and do all these things that, you know, are it's just hard as a baseline right now, in this country, but you know, exponentially harder for disabled folks. And so, you know, the Disability Rising Fellowship is an opportunity to give disabled leaders a year to really cultivate what their message is and an opportunity to be pitched to the media, to podcasts like this one, to publications, to be able to write op-eds and to share their expertise on different policy issues from a disability justice lens. so the idea behind that is that you know right now especially with disability you see certain people who are propped up as leaders but they don't necessarily reflect the diversity, the intersectionality of disabled folks and we call it not having disability media doesn't necess doesn't necessarily have the face to mass to match the base of our community. to understand that as we said before that all systems of oppression are disabling and that disability is a intersectional issue and disability rising is our effort to shift that, to shift the face, to show that there are a wide diverse variety of disabled people speaking on different issues that come from different backgrounds, racial, queer and trans, different ethnic backgrounds. it's our hope to be able to show the diversity of the disability community and the, you know, the breadth of our expertise in different areas. So I'm really excited to roll out the upcoming cohort. I think I'm really excited to see them and on podcasts like this and other podcasts and different publications really showing our knowledge and sharing our diverse stories in different ways in the media. Devin: especially when we're talking about organizing and and movement building and you know, it's it's so encouraging to hear that your organization as well is focusing on this intersectionality and on I mean the fact that really no communities monolith and the folks who live with disabilities, right? Like that they're our is people in general, right, are our diversity And our experiences are kind of our superpowers when it comes to, you know, changing the the systems that are here that are oppressing people right now. And so I mean that's already, I mean, those folks are gonna go out and touch so many lives, I have no doubt. And you know, you've already touched on on this a little bit, but I'm I'm curious, like, if there is something, you know, the It's obvious that communication plays a major role in in the building of these movements. is there something that you could maybe point to that maybe folks who couldn't come to the cohort this time around, that these movements that are building that you see might be something that they could grow on, maybe a place where they're not necessarily. Hitting exactly where they need to. maybe a little piece of advice there. Keidra: I'm talking about communications, but I'll also mention the arts in this because I'm increasingly I am I'm an artist myself. I'm a musician and I write. and I just feel like there's such a a gutting of creativity in the arts right now, especially, you know, not just you know, monetarily, but with AI. I think there's just a this a devaluing of creativity art. and culture and that includes communications. And so I'm being extra protective of what the arts and creativity and communication can do. and I think it's all all of it is so crucial to movement building because, you know, it's not just about policy chains. We're trying to shift what folks see or believe is even possible for us as disabled folks, as multi-marginalized folks. and so I think one of the things that happens especially now in a very like fast-paced technologically social media based culture is that people we we want to communicate all the things at once all the time. you know especially when you we get handed the mic, we have that that one moment to talk about our issue, you know, every detail of that issue feels like 100% urgent and 100% essential. But I think that communications, you know, it takes time for people to really grasp a lot of complicated and nuanced issues. And so I think storytelling, really being able to, you know, lean into storytelling and know that like there are different ways into talking about an issue and like once you have an understanding of what your story is and how to tell your story, you can tell it in different ways. And you don't have to like info load or info dump everything at once. That actually isn't a way to win hearts and minds in the same way. Like I like You can find ways to share your story and to to change people's minds without feeling like you have to show tell every specific detail of an issue. so really leaning into what is your story? How do you want to tell your story? What are the the the details that are crucial to your story rather than feeling like you have to be the expert on everything all at once and be like a walking Wikipedia page that just dumps all this information to everyone. I think it's something that I I really try to encourage people, like it feels like we don't have time. And in some ways, you know, it's it's hard. We it it things really do feel urgent, but I think, you know, giving people an opportunity to share their story. In their way and focus on that rather than kind of infro-dumping is something that I encourage folks to think about. Anna: I'm this is turning many gears in my head right now. I think I've been playing a lot with you know, how do you reach an audience? That's outside of sort of, you know, the people who are already, you know, hearts and minds are there, right? How do you start to connect and and have that resonate with more people? And it is, you know, taking that time and and sharing more nuance and more complexity, you know, versus yeah, that info dump. yeah, and how to do that in what spaces to do that in. I think this podcast is new for us as a as a way to experiment with a different form of communication, putting it on YouTube is a stretch. but yeah, do you want to share a little bit about your podcast? And I you mentioned it earlier. I don't know if it's connected to Disability Culture Lab or yeah, what inspired you to to want to share that? Keidra: so my podcast is called Rough Ray Off with Kidra and Liz. I'm a zinester in my spare time. So I mate zines about a bunch of different topics. And I host a podcast with Liz Mason, who in Chicago used to be the owner of a great zine store called Quimby's. she's no longer the the They have another owner now, but she's still involved in the zine scene. And so Rough Graph is basically our exploration of the zine scene in Chicago and broadly. We talk to different zine sters in the Chicago area. We talk to zine sters across the world. our last episode was with somebody who does something called Zine Map, which is a global map of zine communities around the world. They're based in Australia. And it's just it's a very kind of geeky, Devin: Yeah. Keidra: fun way for us to explore creativity for its own sake and to really give like independent publishing and the zine world a bit of shine and an opportunity for us to just kind of talk about what it means to be a a creative and what it means to be a self publisher, and really kind of owning our own voices and it's a it's a labor of love. and yeah, we do it every time. We don't have a a set schedule for it. but we just celebrated our 20th episode and being around for a year this past this month. So yeah, I'm really excited to keep doing it and I I'm hope I hope to do it for a really long time. It's one of the the great joys that I have every every couple of weeks to be able to record an episode. So Anna: Yeah, with just looking at my desk. A friend just handed me a zine about Seattle transit, where you have Seattle transit and every everything is googly eyes. Keidra: I actually I would love love love love that. Anna: All right, I will connect you to the person who made it. who has a day job for the city, so I don't know if I can say their name. Keidra: Yeah, I would absolutely that's something else. like doing like civic, civic focused zines and disability zines are two things that I am really passionate about. And so it I'm it's very Chicago focused what I'm I do. So I love seeing what other folks in other cities are doing around disability zines and like local civic education and information zines. It's like my passion, so yeah, please hook me up with that. Devin: I mean, such a cool art form too, you know. I there was a bookstore in one of my old neighbors in Seattle that would have a a zine section and I would always look at them and pick them up and think like, Man, I have no idea how you could even start on this. Cause it 'cause it is like not only is it a lot of work, it feels like, it's something that each one is different. And each one has its own feel and expression that I mean you can't find in like a traditional kind of media. I mean, yeah, it's is there I don't know if I have a question, but like I just think that like that is such I mean such a cool medium and like how like how do you see maybe that inter intersecting with the work that you do or with the I mean the things that you're involved in in Chicago? Keidra: Yeah, I if it definitely does. Like I I feel like, you know, my zine work is is not my job, but it informs my job a lot. And the work that I do at DCO informs the zine work that I do. you know, espe you know, talking before about how communication is, you know, it changes what people believe can be possible and art. And creativity do that. And I think, especially now, I think zines, you know, in a world that kind of tells you you have to communicate in a particular way. that, you know, you have to to do things for the algorithm, you have to do things for like zines push back against that. And it's like there's no one way to do it. And and because of that, it means it can't be controlled. I have a very strong belief that like zines that aren't focused on people can only fail. Like I if it's a large institution and they are doing a zine, it's not a zine. Like it it has to be centered on individual expression and individual storytelling and it and and as soon as you start to put Hard and fast rules on what is created, then that's a pamphlet. That's not a scene. Zines belong to to individuals and they belong to communities. They don't belong to institutions. and having space for that, I think keeps me connected to my communities and it and it also kind of keeps me, I guess, honest. It it helps remind me of like who who are you doing this for? You know, who who is your community? How can you help, you know, uplift what folks are doing? How did you help foster community in a way that isn't about you know, rules or what people have decided is important? Like a a lot of zine culture is pushing back on the idea that there are certain geek keepers that say that this is what should be published. It's like I'll publish whatever I want and it's gonna look how it wants. And it's, you know, it's it's gonna be structured in the way that I want it to, not what a publisher says is worthy. And I think, you know, always having a space for that is just, you know, crucial. And I think it can be so liberating for disability communities or such a fantastic disability zine space. and I'm just very protective of it and and enthusiastic about it. Like I my I always want to be able to kind of nurture that that space in that community and like encourage people to not feel like you have to make things in a particular way. Like and and you don't have to get permission from anybody to create a zine. in the way that you want it to be and say what you want it to say. And you don't have to wait for anybody to tell you that this is worth sharing. And so that feeds into my work at DCO. That feeds into just who I am as kind of a a writer and an individual. Anna: I think it's such an important message for people to hear, especially, you know, people in the disability community where gosh, I mean, it's so hard. I think people outside of the community to understand the experience, understand the dialogue that's happening and trying to get stuff through. And I'm glad Disability Culture Lab is is working on, you know, supporting people to get off eds publish and all that. But my gosh, it is it's so tricky. and and it you know, it feels can feel soul crushing too, right? To have your experience constantly being told that it's not, you know, mainstream enough or relevant enough or Keidra: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's, you know, with the fellowship, like creating a space where people can be, you know, nurtured in sharing their story, but also know that your story is valuable even if it doesn't get picked up right away. It does you know what mean? Like like your story is yours regardless of who decides to pick it up. But we're gonna help you get it out there either way. And we're gonna help nurture your story, you know, for you and then help you share your story with the public is is something I feel like that's how I connect my my Z work with the work that I do at DCL is like trying to remind people that their story is is valuable and important no matter what. Devin: It's such a powerful message to tell people, especially young people, that like there's no right way to do a lot of this stuff. There's no right way to organize. There's no right way to get a policy change. You know, there's no right way to be a leader. and it seems like the young this generation, this younger generation is the one to really embrace that. but that message still needs to be spread. So that's wonderful. Keidra: Yeah. I mean honestly I feel like it's us older folks that need to be reminded of that 'cause we've forgotten like the younger younger people, they know that and they sometimes need to poke us on it and remind us that they're new in different ways to do things. that's why I like working with youth so much. Anna: We have a sort of a qu a question that we ask at the end of any every interview and I feel like Devin always does the best job framing it. So I'm gonna pass it to Devin to ask this question. go for it, Devin. Devin: I mean, I think we've heard a lot of it through this conversation, but as someone who has worked with you know, a lot of different folks, you know, these these growing and new leaders, different movements across the country with the work that you're doing, is there something in particular? I mean, it sounds like there's a lot of things that are ac bringing you hope, but is there one thing in particular that is bringing you hope for non drivers and and for the future that You know, we're all going to be sharing. Keidra: This is not just to gas y'all up, but I think just the fact that this podcast exists, that this community exists, like the idea that non-drivers are we are a broad and diverse community and population. I think that people you're a member like clueless, the like you're a virgin who can't draw. I think about That and how that that that line is, you know, it's an insult, but it was also the, you know, it was also meant to be laughed at. It was also and I feel like people have an idea of what a non driver is. Like there's a there's definitely a lot of stereotypes about what who a non driver is and why they don't drive. And you know, there's a good chunk of us out there. We're we're not as small of a population as people think. There's disabled folks, there's older folks, there's young folks, there's folks who can't afford a car, there are people who just don't want to drive a car. There are bike, you know, cyclists. There are folks who want to invest in public transit infrastructure and think it's important to do it for like environmental reasons or just all you know community and civic reasons. and we all have a stake in it. We all have a stake in building a community that doesn't focus on driving as like the standard for participating in society and our communities. And I feel like that is a conversation that more people are willing to have without scoffing at it. that I've seen, back to Better Street Chicago here is like I'm just the fact that that organization exists and that we can have conversations about the time tax of you know when public transit arrives and bus scheduling, like all these different things that I've thought about, but I didn't know had like names or concepts or things that you know people thought were a priority. This all brings me hope, like the fact that these are now things that we are talking about on a policy level, but also just talking about on a personal level and how it impacts our lives. And it's not something that is like we're skulking in the shadows, talking about like, I'm actually taking the bus there or or I'm taking the train there, you know. Yeah. It is something that's normalized in a way that I feel like it wasn't years ago. And so that brings me a lot of hope. that it's something that is much more normalized than it was even like ten years ago. and the idea that we're a bunch of very different folks who have this in common, that we're a broad and diverse and wide community of folks who do not drive. And full stop. We can say that is just amazing to me. Anna: No, it is hopeful. And it's cool that you feel it. I think we feel it, like there is a change. and that's exciting. So yeah, gives me a lot of hope too. Keidra: Thanks so much for inviting me. This is great. I've never had an opportunity to actually talk about this in detail. And I'm like, I could talk about this forever. I just I actually really enjoy talking about transit and you know not driving as a a way of life. so yeah, thank you so much for inviting me. Anna: Thanks for listening to Non-Driver. I'm Anna Zivarts Devin: And I'm Devin Silvernail. If today's conversation resonated with you, please subscribe and share the show with a friend. Anna: You can also leave us a review wherever you listen. It genuinely helps other people find the show. Devin: Non-Driver is brought to you by the NonDrivers Alliance. Find more info at non drivers.org. Anna: And this episode was produced by Devin. Devin: Wanna get in touch? Email us at non-driverpodcast at proton dot me. Anna: We'll see you next week.