Latest / NO FILTER / Episode 9_ Hearsay(M4A_128K)

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Episode 9_ Hearsay(M4A_128K) · NO FILTER

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: When did Lee's name start coming up?
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: When did you first hear that lay night early come up?
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: When Wayne had tota Charles Charley that night?
• 0:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 0:25
  Speaker 5: Amanda and Kenneth, Brian's sister and brother in law, told
• 0:28
  Speaker 5: us that it was Charlie Childers who had first made
• 0:30
  Speaker 5: them think that Lee Clark had been involved in Brian's death.
• 0:34
  Speaker 5: Charlie and his brother Wayne were family friends of the Bowldings.
• 0:38
  Speaker 5: They had been at the Bowlings trailer watching TV with
• 0:41
  Speaker 5: the rest of Brian's family when the shooting occurred. Glenn Clark,
• 0:45
  Speaker 5: Lee's father, explained to us why Charlie was so important
• 0:48
  Speaker 5: to the prosecution's case.
• 0:51
  Speaker 6: Their theory is that Charlie Childers were standing at the
• 0:56
  Speaker 6: glass door looking outside. Is he saw Lee running across
• 1:03
  Speaker 6: the front yard. That's how they say they put Lee
• 1:06
  Speaker 6: at the same Their theory is that Lee was at
• 1:11
  Speaker 6: the bedroom window, he shot Brian through the wonder, throw
• 1:16
  Speaker 6: the gun in the bedroom.
• 1:18
  Speaker 7: And run up.
• 1:20
  Speaker 5: This theory about Lee Clark being outside of Brian's bedroom
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: window is based entirely on Charlie Childers. There is literally
• 1:28
  Speaker 5: no other evidence that places Lee there. But what exactly
• 1:31
  Speaker 5: does Charlie say he saw that night. This question is
• 1:35
  Speaker 5: harder to answer than you might think.
• 1:38
  Speaker 8: I think that confuses me about Charlie's So he's the
• 1:41
  Speaker 8: one who puts the the house, right?
• 1:44
  Speaker 9: Is that right?
• 1:46
  Speaker 8: Do you guys feel certain that people can understand exactly
• 1:50
  Speaker 8: what Charlie saying.
• 1:51
  Speaker 10: They had to bring in some special person.
• 1:54
  Speaker 9: Or that at co work and everything, because.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I can't understand you some things.
• 1:59
  Speaker 9: You can get a sense of what he's saying, but.
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 2:04
  Speaker 9: His sound language was basically not the sound language that
• 2:09
  Speaker 9: you're tall.
• 2:11
  Speaker 10: Like, wrong some special Parsons co worker.
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: Hi.
• 2:20
  Speaker 11: My name is Susan Simpson.
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: I'm an attorney and podcaster and previously I hosted the
• 2:25
  Speaker 5: Undisclosed podcast.
• 2:27
  Speaker 7: Hi, I'm just in to Davis and I'm a true
• 2:29
  Speaker 7: crime TV producer. Last year, Susan and I decide to
• 2:33
  Speaker 7: team up and reinvestigate the murder of Brian Bowling. Along
• 2:37
  Speaker 7: with Kevin Fitzpatrick, president of Red Marble Media, we decided
• 2:41
  Speaker 7: to launch Proof. You can listen to Proof like you
• 2:44
  Speaker 7: would any podcast, and you can follow us everywhere with
• 2:48
  Speaker 7: the handle at proofcrime pod and on our website proofcrimepod
• 2:52
  Speaker 7: dot com. Thanks for listening and welcome to Proof on
• 3:07
  Speaker 7: the night that Brian was shot, Charlie Childers and his
• 3:10
  Speaker 7: brother Wayne had been at the Bowlings trailer. Brian's uncle
• 3:14
  Speaker 7: remembers seeing both brothers there when he rushed over after
• 3:18
  Speaker 7: receiving a call telling him that Brian had been shot.
• 3:23
  Speaker 11: And when you got.
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: There, Wayne and Charlie were both just do you know
• 3:27
  Speaker 5: where they were sitting.
• 3:28
  Speaker 12: Charlie was sitting on the couch and Wayne was standing
• 3:32
  Speaker 12: in the bedom doorway.
• 3:35
  Speaker 5: Did you communicate with them at all?
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: Or no?
• 3:38
  Speaker 12: Not really, I was kind of pushed.
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: Or you're gonna Were you familiar with them?
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 3:42
  Speaker 12: Yeahs I grew up with him. Yeah, he's definitely speaks
• 3:46
  Speaker 12: sign language, but they're like really country people, and they
• 3:50
  Speaker 12: kind of learned their own sign language. It's kind of
• 3:52
  Speaker 12: like sign language slang or something.
• 3:57
  Speaker 7: Even though Charlie and Wayne Childers had been at the
• 4:00
  Speaker 7: trailer the night Brian was shot, investigators didn't speak to
• 4:04
  Speaker 7: them until seven months later.
• 4:09
  Speaker 5: The first record we have and then talking to the
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: Childers is from May of ninety seven, because it was
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: so but that was a long time after.
• 4:20
  Speaker 6: A long, long time.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Months.
• 4:23
  Speaker 7: In fact, Wayne and Charlie were not interviewed until after
• 4:28
  Speaker 7: Lee and Kane had been arrested for Brian's murder. Neither
• 4:32
  Speaker 7: Amanda nor Kenneth remember talking directly to Wayne or Charlie
• 4:36
  Speaker 7: about any of this, but they recall that someone in
• 4:39
  Speaker 7: the Childer's family had told someone in the Bowling family
• 4:43
  Speaker 7: about Charlie seeing something important the night Brian was shot.
• 4:48
  Speaker 7: They think it was likely Devor Bowling, Brian's and Amanda's
• 4:51
  Speaker 7: mother who had passed this information on to Sergeant Dallas Battle,
• 4:55
  Speaker 7: and investigator David Stewart.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: MO, yeah, probably need to go to talk talk to
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: Wayne and Charlie mom.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: Probably did you know Wayne had told somebody that Charlie
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: had same laid at.
• 5:10
  Speaker 5: Now Sergeant Dallas Battle investigator David Stewart found themselves driving
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: down to Silver Creek to speak to Wayne and Charlie.
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: Sergeant Battle testified that they hadn't brought a translator with them.
• 5:21
  Speaker 5: They hadn't known Charlie was death until they got there,
• 5:24
  Speaker 5: so Wayne had been the one to translate for them.
• 5:27
  Speaker 5: There wasn't a report made about what exactly Charlie had
• 5:30
  Speaker 5: to say during this interview, but at trial, Battle was
• 5:33
  Speaker 5: allowed to do something that witnesses are usually forbidden from doing.
• 5:37
  Speaker 5: He was allowed to testify about what Charlie had said
• 5:40
  Speaker 5: to him, which is hearsay, double hearsay. Actually, Battle couldn't
• 5:44
  Speaker 5: speak to Charlie directly, so what he was testifying to
• 5:48
  Speaker 5: was what he said, Wayne said, Charlie said.
• 5:53
  Speaker 8: I was informed that Charlie could read lips if you
• 5:56
  Speaker 8: were looking directly at him to a certain extent, and
• 5:59
  Speaker 8: his brother Wayne told us that he could sign to
• 6:02
  Speaker 8: him sign language and interpret. We asked Charlie what he
• 6:05
  Speaker 8: knew about that night, and he communicated to us that
• 6:08
  Speaker 8: he saw someone run by the front window of the
• 6:11
  Speaker 8: residence where the shooting took place immediately after the shooting.
• 6:15
  Speaker 8: I communicated to him, asked him if he could identify
• 6:18
  Speaker 8: who ran by the window. He said yes or indicated yes.
• 6:24
  Speaker 5: This testimony should never have been allowed, and the defense
• 6:27
  Speaker 5: did object to it, but the trial judge overruled the
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: objections and let Battle testify anyway. Battle went on to
• 6:34
  Speaker 5: describe how after Charlie told him about seeing someone out
• 6:36
  Speaker 5: the window, he'd gone back to the police station and
• 6:39
  Speaker 5: picked up a photo lineup.
• 6:42
  Speaker 8: I explained to Wayne that we needed Charlie to look
• 6:44
  Speaker 8: at this photo lineup and if he recognized the person
• 6:47
  Speaker 8: on the photo lineup that he saw go by the
• 6:49
  Speaker 8: window the night of the shooting. We needed him to
• 6:51
  Speaker 8: indicate what number it was. Charlie circled number two.
• 6:57
  Speaker 5: Photo number two was a photo of Daryl Lee Clark.
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: M hmm.
• 7:10
  Speaker 7: Thanks to Sergeant Battle, the jury heard that there was
• 7:13
  Speaker 7: an eyewitness who had seen Lee Clark at the Bowlings
• 7:16
  Speaker 7: trailer when Brian was shot. So case closed, right, Except
• 7:22
  Speaker 7: there's something odd about Battle's description of this interview he
• 7:25
  Speaker 7: had with Charlie Childers.
• 7:28
  Speaker 5: One thing I do wonder about is how the police
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: even got the story from him, Like, how did how
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: did they how did they understand.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: Charla was saying, the only one that can really understand
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Charlotte is why And.
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: Wayne says he can't really understand it. So Wayne can't.
• 7:40
  Speaker 5: So Charlie can read and write to some degree. Yeah,
• 7:43
  Speaker 5: Wayne can't read.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Wayne can't read.
• 7:45
  Speaker 5: You're at so it's not like they can do that.
• 7:48
  Speaker 11: So when he didn't speak silentage.
• 7:49
  Speaker 7: Either, Sergeant Battle testified that he'd been able to interview
• 7:54
  Speaker 7: Charlie because his brother Wayne had acted as an interpreter.
• 7:59
  Speaker 7: But Wayne Children also testified, and Wayne told the court
• 8:03
  Speaker 7: that he couldn't really communicate with Charlie either, not really anyway.
• 8:08
  Speaker 7: In fact, Wayne said when Battle had interviewed Charlie he
• 8:12
  Speaker 7: couldn't understand what Charlie was trying to say. So Charlie
• 8:16
  Speaker 7: had written his answers down on a piece of paper
• 8:18
  Speaker 7: for Sergeant Battle to read, and that piece of paper
• 8:22
  Speaker 7: was still in the police file. Susan read to Dan
• 8:26
  Speaker 7: and me what Charlie had told Sergeant Battle in his interview.
• 8:32
  Speaker 5: Well, here's the page of notes. I think they're written
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: by Charlie Childers.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: But Charlie can't write.
• 8:39
  Speaker 5: I think Charlie can write on the stand.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: He said he'd never learned to read or write.
• 8:44
  Speaker 11: He did say that, but I think he can write
• 8:46
  Speaker 11: a little bit.
• 8:46
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: So the note say I am here, h ear one
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: room in looking window night, go to store, are out
• 8:56
  Speaker 5: and phone walk road hour, were in bedroom, TV night
• 9:01
  Speaker 5: all walk road car looking is night, go to gate
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: and house.
• 9:08
  Speaker 11: I am looking cabin house here.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Maybe he was pointing.
• 9:14
  Speaker 11: Out a picture and trying to explain story.
• 9:17
  Speaker 5: Is talk gun house in gun phone, bowling room bed night,
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: boy is walk in out through window, go to store,
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: is house live, live something new hope church car black
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: blue buick Buick, Black with Blue. I ask in all
• 9:39
  Speaker 5: looking talk, policeman is park car We will all time
• 9:44
  Speaker 5: here road, all time night, policeman road, please is true?
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: All is good? Black with Blue, Rock mart Rome, morning
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: and night.
• 9:55
  Speaker 11: Thank you.
• 9:59
  Speaker 5: All ready to that explains well, now it's all clear
• 10:04
  Speaker 5: to me what happened to.
• 10:06
  Speaker 13: But the only name that's anywhere in that story?
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: Where is Kane?
• 10:12
  Speaker 9: Right?
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: The name story appears twice on the page of notes,
• 10:16
  Speaker 5: or rather the name Stocy s T O. C Y,
• 10:20
  Speaker 5: which is presumably Cane's story, but the name Darrell Lee
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: Clark doesn't appear anywhere. One line of the notes does
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: say boy is walking out window, but it's not clear
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: if the boy being referred to here is Can's story
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: or someone else entirely. So these notes are somewhat confusing.
• 10:38
  Speaker 5: But what about Charlie's testimony at trial? I asked Lee
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: Clark what had happened when Charlie testified? What with the
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: like in the courtroom when they're trying to talk to him,
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: to Charlie.
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: Oh, you ain't never saying the circus luckiest, I'm gonna
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: tell you. Running now they're signing and he's sitting there
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: in the pace up for one minute, he's saying, the
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: Cane story was the only one there. It was just
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: stores your story. They was borting to Kane, Saint Kane
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: was only one. Just Kane, just Kane, That's what he
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: was saying. For the lowness, And they got, oh, well, Charlie,
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: we want to talk about what happened outside? Who'd you
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: see outside? And he was talking about, oh, Kane, Kane
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: came outside, cage outside, there's that all over place. You
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: have to read his testimony. Reading it, you understand what
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: I'm talking about.
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: When we finally got the transcript of Charlie's testimony, I
• 11:28
  Speaker 5: did understand what Lee had met. Without actually reading the
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: transcript for yourself. It's hard to convey the sheer chaos
• 11:36
  Speaker 5: of it. I can honestly say I have never seen
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: another transcript like it, and just reading through it is
• 11:42
  Speaker 5: someone It's cruciating. I can only imagine how much worse
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: it would have been actually sitting through it and hearing
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: it in person. Because Amanda and Kenneth had both been
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: witnesses in this case, they hadn't gotten to see the
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: testimony for themselves, but I told them some of what
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: Charlie had testified to There's half dozen times they ask
• 12:01
  Speaker 5: him to say what we saw that night and he
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: says story.
• 12:04
  Speaker 10: Huh. So I've always heard that he shild late, that
• 12:08
  Speaker 10: he's sang him running through the big window, lame window
• 12:15
  Speaker 10: and has got a big window, and I thought that
• 12:19
  Speaker 10: he him run right, those are.
• 12:21
  Speaker 5: That's what Dallas Battle says. But Dallas Battle can't talk
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: to me either.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:31
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• 12:36
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• 14:00
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• 14:10
  Speaker 7: In order for Charlie Childers to testify at trial, an
• 14:14
  Speaker 7: interpreter had been brought in to translate for him. Her
• 14:18
  Speaker 7: job had been to translate the attorney's questions into American
• 14:22
  Speaker 7: sign language and then to speak Charlie's answers back to
• 14:26
  Speaker 7: the court Susan and I went to speak to her
• 14:29
  Speaker 7: about what the experience had been like.
• 14:33
  Speaker 5: So when we walked up, I asked you if you
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: remember being in compaur case and you'll instantly settle in dale.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: It was fairly traumatic for me.
• 14:41
  Speaker 7: I mean, I tell us why, Like, at what point
• 14:45
  Speaker 7: did you realize?
• 14:46
  Speaker 6: Oh?
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Pretty immediately, you know.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: But once you're into this kind of situation, I mean,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: how do you get out of it?
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: And I was fairly young.
• 14:54
  Speaker 7: Gola Burton is a state certified interpreter for American Sign
• 14:59
  Speaker 7: Language or ASL. She became interested in ASL at a
• 15:04
  Speaker 7: young age.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: So I grew up in Cave Spring. Both of my
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: parents worked at the school for the Deaf. They're both hearing.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: After I graduated from high school, became more interested in
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: sign language. My dad was head of the interpreter training
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: program at Georgia Highlands, so I participated in a lot
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: of his classes. So just growing up in Cave Spring
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: and deciding that I wanted to be part of the.
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: Deaf community and kve Spring has a.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: As the residential school for the Deaf for the State
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: of Georgia.
• 15:37
  Speaker 7: Cave Spring is the second biggest town in Floyd County
• 15:40
  Speaker 7: after Rome itself. It's at the south end of the county,
• 15:44
  Speaker 7: not far from Silver Creek, and it's where the Georgia
• 15:47
  Speaker 7: School for the Deaf is located.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: So the gentleman that I was interpreting for, I believe
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: he was a student at the School for the Deaf
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: and then he was isolated from the deaf community. He
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: was not a typical deaf adult. His communication was not typical.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: If he had met another deaf person, he would not
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: have been able to communicate with another deaf person very well.
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: I wonder if the courteous heard of the witness is
• 16:17
  Speaker 5: death and just like assumes he spoke ASL because I've
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: told people have talked to her like, oh, no, he
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: doesn't speak ASL.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: No, he didn't have You can't label his communication style.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: He was home science.
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: He was what does home signs mean?
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'll give you an example. This gentleman told my dad.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: My dad was a teacher at the school. And this
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: gentleman said, I don't need to learn sign language.
• 16:39
  Speaker 6: I can.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: My son understands me perfectly fine. And he said and
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: he says, what hey, Johnny, go over there to the
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: truck and get my cigarettes and bring them to me.
• 16:50
  Speaker 7: As Gula Burton was speaking to us, she demonstrated what
• 16:53
  Speaker 7: the student's father had done. She pointed to her breast pocket,
• 16:58
  Speaker 7: mine's smoking a cigarette and gestured over towards her car.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's not none of that is signed language.
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: It's like except I kind of understood it like he did, I.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Would have understood.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: But that's that's not ASL. That's gesturing. That's gesturing.
• 17:15
  Speaker 7: In court that day, much of what Charlie had been
• 17:18
  Speaker 7: signing had not been language at all. It had been
• 17:21
  Speaker 7: gestures that he used at home to communicate to his family.
• 17:26
  Speaker 5: It's walking to a nightmare, like you think you're gonna
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: respond well.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: And immediately the defense called it in to question my ability,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: which shook my confidence a little bit.
• 17:37
  Speaker 7: We showed Gola the transcript from Charlie's testimony so that
• 17:41
  Speaker 7: she could help us try to piece together what had
• 17:43
  Speaker 7: actually happened in the courtroom.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, so it just kind of definitely goes off the rails.
• 17:51
  Speaker 7: As Gola reviewed the transcript, she pointed out to us
• 17:55
  Speaker 7: that much of Charlie's testimony had been neither ASL nor homes. Instead,
• 18:01
  Speaker 7: it was something much slower.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Evidently he's he could finger spell, because I'm obviously I
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: had to spell the proper name Brian Bowling, I had
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: to sign that.
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: What does finger spelling mean?
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: So proper nouns do not have signs, so you would
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: have to finger spell it, so I'd have to spell
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: out each letter. So obviously I'm trying to see if
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: he has any speech, any lip reading. I'm trying to
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: see if there's another way, you know.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: To communicate with him. I'm trying to.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Get something from him through this. And oh see he
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: finger spelled up here. That's the finger spelled gun. And
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I you know, now that I'm a little older and
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: have a little more experience, I probably just sud have
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: said we can't do this.
• 18:51
  Speaker 7: You know, in hindsight, some communication with Charlie was possible.
• 19:00
  Speaker 7: There were questions he was asked that he was able
• 19:03
  Speaker 7: to answer, but Charlie's level of fluency doesn't seem to
• 19:08
  Speaker 7: have been the only problem here. Even when Charlie understood
• 19:11
  Speaker 7: the questions he was being asked, his answers didn't always
• 19:15
  Speaker 7: make sense. Did you feel like it was just a
• 19:18
  Speaker 7: communication issue with him, or was there a cognitive impairment?
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: So when when you isolate someone from communication, you know,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: is it I mean what causes it? You know, if
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: you take someone and they're raised by gorillas in the forest,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: is it because they act the way they do? Is
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: it cognition or the way they were isolated? I mean
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: he was isolated from communication. I was like just guessing
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: he probably.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Second grade rating level.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: He just did not have the language skills. I mean
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: that I'm remember him not having communication and language skills
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: to communicate with someone other than his family.
• 20:08
  Speaker 7: Finger spelling provided some method of communication to Charlie, but
• 20:12
  Speaker 7: even that was limited because in order to finger spell successfully,
• 20:17
  Speaker 7: you need to be able to read and write. And
• 20:20
  Speaker 7: how much could he you can? He might know the alphabet,
• 20:24
  Speaker 7: but if he doesn't know how to read, spelling out
• 20:27
  Speaker 7: the science doesn't really help help. Like, you can spell
• 20:30
  Speaker 7: out outside, but you might not know what those letters.
• 20:33
  Speaker 6: Mean to me.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: The only way they really would have got this information
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: that they wanted was to go to the Saint and
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: so act out what you saw. I mean, if they
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: had videoed him at the Saint, having him Okay, Charlie,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: let's go through this again.
• 20:52
  Speaker 7: That's not how trials work, though in most cases witnesses
• 20:57
  Speaker 7: can only give evidence by answering questions under on the
• 21:00
  Speaker 7: witness stand, but this was not an effective way of
• 21:04
  Speaker 7: communicating with Charlie Childers.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: He can answer some questions, he can answer some questions,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: some of the very literal questions, or from the very beginning,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: it looks like questions that he will have gone from.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: It seems like he had this plan. You know, these
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: are the things you're gonna tell. This is what happened
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: in this order. That's just what they want.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: You to say.
• 21:25
  Speaker 7: On the witness stand. Charlie had been able to describe
• 21:28
  Speaker 7: what had happened that night leading up to the shooting.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I was just sitting there.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Watching TV.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I heard the sound. I turned around.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: I was scared. It was a gunshot in the bedroom.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: I didn't see what happened in the room because I
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: was just sitting there. I stayed there in my seat,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: just waiting, watching everybody. Wayne went in there. Then everybody
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: else got up.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: And went in there.
• 21:58
  Speaker 7: This part of Charlie's testimony made sense, but the problems
• 22:02
  Speaker 7: began as soon as Charlie was asked any questions about
• 22:05
  Speaker 7: what had happened after this point in his story, like
• 22:09
  Speaker 7: when the prosecutor asked Charlie if he had seen someone
• 22:12
  Speaker 7: named Darryl before or after the gunshot had gone off.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Daryl went, this a way, story was in the room,
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: and I could hear the pop and after that, but story,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: I saw a story come through the room, walk through
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: the room, saying hello to everybody and talking.
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: Please started back at the start of the story.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: I know see. I mean, it's to me after I
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: read it. At this point, it's like, Okay, this is
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: the story. I've rehearsed the story. I'm going to tell
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: the story. I start here, I go through everything that
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: I experienced. That's what they told me to do. So okay,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: I've told it a couple of times. They didn't get it.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Let me start again. It's like I could not communicate
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: the question to him.
• 22:52
  Speaker 7: When Charlie was asked a question, more often than not,
• 22:55
  Speaker 7: he couldn't answer it. Instead, he just retold the entire
• 22:59
  Speaker 7: story of what happened that night.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: And then later on started to get dark. We went home.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Brian went to his parents' house and stayed. We went
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: in and sat in our friends talk about talking. We
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: stayed for a while.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: He's starting over after a while sitting watching TV, my brother,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: all of us talking.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: We starting all over again.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: I saw one person walking past, and I walked and
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: watched this person walk past the window. Was that person
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: outside outside? Darryl was outside, story, was inside story? He
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: walked by inside into the room. I was sitting there
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: with all the people, friend's family, and so started over again.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: He's to ask him who Daryl is.
• 23:46
  Speaker 7: In the transcript of Charlie's testimony, the name Daryl appears
• 23:50
  Speaker 7: dozens of times. This is important because the prosecutor tells
• 23:55
  Speaker 7: the jury that Charlie is talking about Lee, whose legal
• 23:59
  Speaker 7: name is Daryl Lee Clark. But Lee has never gone
• 24:02
  Speaker 7: by Darryl. Everyone just calls him Lee. And in fact,
• 24:07
  Speaker 7: when Charlie was asked if he knew Daryl's name, Charlie
• 24:10
  Speaker 7: answered no, he didn't. So why in the transcript does
• 24:14
  Speaker 7: Charlie keep seeing the name Darryl.
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: And he does say Darryl orth somehow identifies her.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: So I don't know if there was a name sign
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: so like right here, I say, Charlie, where was Darryl.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know if there was a name sign established
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: to Darryl, or if I'm Spingler spelling Darryl each time
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: so he.
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: Was identifying Darryl, but it could have been a number
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: of different ways.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: A number of different ways.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: See, and then here is Darrel in the courtroom today.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I know I've seen story. I've seen him. So obviously
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: we were able to differentiate between Story and Darryl because
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: now he's talking about story.
• 24:57
  Speaker 7: When King's attorney cross examined Charlie, he asked Charlie why
• 25:01
  Speaker 7: he kept seeing the name Darryl, but Gulla struggled to
• 25:05
  Speaker 7: make Charlie understand the.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Question, So, where did you come up with the name Darryl? Yes,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I did. I did tell story, and I put that down.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: I put down story.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: No, not Darryl, just the one, just the one story.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: That's all one time story. I put down story. I
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: write down story. I told about story.
• 25:23
  Speaker 6: See.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I'm obviously frustrated at this point because I'm not using
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: complete sentences.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: I'm probably matching what he said.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: He's saying, and you didn't tell about any other person
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that you named, did you?
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: No?
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: I didn't.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: So where did Daryl come from? Nope, you don't know
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: where you came up with the name Daryl.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know about Darryl.
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: At times in his testimony, Charlie denied knowing anything about
• 25:51
  Speaker 5: any Darryl. He insisted that he was only talking about
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: Cane's story, But other times Charlie does describe seeing a
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: second boy named Darryl at the trailer that night.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: I told the boss man I know about Story and Daryl,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: the two of them. What happened before I know? I
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: saw it two times? That story shot, Brian.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: You saw story shoot Brian, No.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: First Story walked around, he said, hello, so he's telling
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: the story again.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I watched him walk by. I was watching TV. My
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: brother and I talking.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: To the parents, the Bowling parents. They were meeting and talking,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: and I heard something that made me jump.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: It scared me.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: A loud boom.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: The story came running out of the room. He walked past.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: I watched him, like, what was going on? The other boy?
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Did you see the other boy?
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: The other boy? Yeah, there was another boy. Do you
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: remember his name? His wife is miss I don't know.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know black boy, black hair.
• 27:00
  Speaker 7: His wife Si, there's another person there.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: There's no one with His wife is miss.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: These boys like fifteen, sixteen years old, ant there's no wives.
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: Just to state the obvious. Lee Clark was not married,
• 27:12
  Speaker 5: he's not black, and he has brown hair. We don't
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: know who Charlie could have been describing here like this
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: is reading, this is hard. He does later he says
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: Darryl a lot, But I just don't think he actually
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: identified Darryl Lee Clark.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: So you've been asking him repeatedly if he sees Darryl
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: at the trailer, and now you're asking him if he
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: says Darryl here today, and he can't tell, and he
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: can't and he could not shift to the present.
• 27:40
  Speaker 5: Reading the transcript, you can feel the confusion and frustration
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: from everyone in the courtroom, especially when Prosecutor Steve Cox
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: was trying to get Charlie to identify Lee Clark. Steve
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: Cox seems to have thought that the problem might be
• 27:53
  Speaker 5: that Charlie was just looking in the wrong direction. He
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: couldn't identify Lee because he hadn't looked over and seen
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: where he was sitting. So he said to Gola, tell
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: Charlie to look around the courtroom. The transcript shows that
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: Gola had done her best to interpret Charlie's response to
• 28:08
  Speaker 5: this instruction.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: He said, no, I didn't, I didn't look around. No,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: I will not look around. No, I didn't.
• 28:18
  Speaker 7: You can till you're getting frustrated too.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, do you really want me to
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: say exactly what he's saying because it makes no sense.
• 28:26
  Speaker 7: Well, the prosecutor is getting frustrated too, like this isn't
• 28:29
  Speaker 7: going the way I thought he was going.
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: To do, is to say, yeah, I saw Daryl there,
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: and it's not working.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: And he's saying story again.
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: No matter how many times Charlie was asked to identify Darryl,
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: he couldn't do it. He kept saying, Daryl wasn't there.
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: Story only story, So, as Lee Clark remembers, eventually the
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: prosecutor came up with a new plan.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: In that court room, that is Attorney State comps at
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: the time that they were trying to get Charty identifyingly,
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: he sit there and asked the judge. He said, you're honored,
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: I would like to ask permission at this time to
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: spit behind the bench toune table, and for mister Kilder
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: to tell me if it's to stop behind the person
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: he's seen that night, if he goes right behind the
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: fence tounch table and was right behind me, he's standing
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: right there and He's like you just to main you sawing,
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: and all of a sudden they said, oh, yeah this
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: is the guy I seen.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Oh so he didn't get.
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: You in the end, Yeah, I mean.
• 29:25
  Speaker 7: What is that?
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: So? Yeah, if you focus on justice one exchange from
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: the transcript and ignore everything else that came before and
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: after it, then sure it's accurate to say that Charlie
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: Childers identified Lee Clark. A trial, Pagoula told us that
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: if the prosecutor had actually wanted to find out if
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: Charlie knew who Darrell Lee Clark was, this was not
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: the way he should have gone about it.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: What they should have done is said, Okay, Charlie, who
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: is this? Give me this person's name. Charlie, who was
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Give me this person's name. I mean they should have
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: done everybody at the table, do you know these people?
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: And what are their names?
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: And he would say yes.
• 30:08
  Speaker 5: What obsecuitor does next is he walks behind the defense bench,
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: so you hat the two defense attorneys. You got the
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: two defendants there. He walks up and grabs Darrell Lee
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: Clark by the shoulders.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, I guess you ask is this darryl Okay?
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Is that the person you saw outside the possa, Your honor,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: let the record show that he's that he knows Darryl Clark.
• 30:44
  Speaker 5: After we spoke to Glaburton, J just Sinda and I
• 30:47
  Speaker 5: update Kevin on how it had gone.
• 30:50
  Speaker 8: Does she remember at the time thinking how absurd this was,
• 30:54
  Speaker 8: that this was the eyewitness and.
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: She was laughing he's the transcript now, But like back then,
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: I think she was like freaked out over her head,
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: and she she was early in her career and she
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: didn't have the confidence to be like, your honor, we can't,
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: I cannot do this. This is not a thing that
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: can be We can't communicate with him.
• 31:12
  Speaker 7: She also remembers being told, don't worry about it.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: The conviction won't hinge on his testimony.
• 31:18
  Speaker 8: But he's the eyewitness placing him at the scene.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: He is the only one who can place him.
• 31:22
  Speaker 7: At the scene.
• 31:24
  Speaker 8: So now she's probably like going back inside and having a.
• 31:26
  Speaker 11: Joint because she says she's gonna call her dad. She says, he's.
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: Martin's very translating to her with this kind of issue,
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: and see what he thinks about transcript. We'd known since
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: we first started working on this case that we need
• 31:46
  Speaker 5: to speak to Charlie Childers. But after talking to Gola Burton,
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: we now knew how difficult communicating with Charlie was going
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: to be.
• 31:53
  Speaker 11: And it really is a shame that Charlie.
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: There's a duck community in Cave Spring, Like it's really
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: close to a place where he could have lots of resources,
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: and yet he's been isolated.
• 32:05
  Speaker 8: Yeah, it's a little perplexing when you get right down
• 32:07
  Speaker 8: to it, right, Like.
• 32:09
  Speaker 11: If you're going to be in sort of rural Georgia,
• 32:14
  Speaker 11: this is where you want to be.
• 32:14
  Speaker 8: This is where you want to be.
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: Look, if you're listening to this, you know that podcasts
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: could be a great way to unwind. But listening to
• 32:24
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• 32:27
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• 32:29
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• 33:51
  Speaker 7: Gola put us in touch with her father, Mike Burton.
• 33:54
  Speaker 7: He has decades of experience interpreting and teaching asl as
• 33:59
  Speaker 7: well as teaching interpreters. Gula thought he might be able
• 34:03
  Speaker 7: to help us make sense of Charlie's confusing testimony, and
• 34:07
  Speaker 7: she turned out to be right about that.
• 34:10
  Speaker 11: He taught Charlie tellers.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: I taught Charlie children.
• 34:14
  Speaker 7: Mike Burton had been Charlie's high school teacher, and he's
• 34:18
  Speaker 7: remained in contact with Charlie off and on in the
• 34:20
  Speaker 7: years since, acting as an interpreter for him on a
• 34:23
  Speaker 7: number of occasions. She fighted it hard to communicate with Charlie.
• 34:28
  Speaker 7: Were you able to communicate with Charlie or was it.
• 34:30
  Speaker 9: Charlie is extremely difficult to communicate with. He left Georgia
• 34:35
  Speaker 9: School for Deaf and I'm thinking seventy five, maybe seventy
• 34:40
  Speaker 9: four seventy five. His mother took him to Silver Creek
• 34:44
  Speaker 9: and he never saw another death person. He actually looked
• 34:48
  Speaker 9: me up. He wanted somebody to take him churches. Guy Tom,
• 34:52
  Speaker 9: another deaf guide, took him to church, and the mother
• 34:55
  Speaker 9: stopped that she did not want him interacting with any
• 34:59
  Speaker 9: of the the death heat. So it's like, you know,
• 35:02
  Speaker 9: you can learn to ride a bicycle and you can
• 35:04
  Speaker 9: keep that skill, but that ain't it's the same, And
• 35:07
  Speaker 9: that's sort of the way I say it with Charlie.
• 35:10
  Speaker 9: He never was a great signer, but over time it
• 35:13
  Speaker 9: really deteriorated.
• 35:16
  Speaker 7: When we met Mike Burton, we'd been surprised to find
• 35:18
  Speaker 7: out that he actually knew Charlie Childers, and we were
• 35:21
  Speaker 7: even more surprised to find out that he'd once interpreted
• 35:24
  Speaker 7: for Charlie in connection with the Brian Bowling case.
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: So we're down in Bugger Holler with Mike Burton, who
• 35:33
  Speaker 5: was the father of GOLDA Burton, the interpreter who was
• 35:36
  Speaker 5: used at the trial of Lee and Kane depends in
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: this case, and he was just telling us that he
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: remembers at some point interpreting for Charlie Shoulders. But Tony,
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: what you remember about that.
• 35:51
  Speaker 9: Well, I'll be honest with you. It was a while back,
• 35:54
  Speaker 9: and I'm getting a little fuzzy. I do remember talk
• 35:58
  Speaker 9: about the trailer. I do remember Charlie talking about seeing
• 36:01
  Speaker 9: this guy walk by the window. I do remember him
• 36:04
  Speaker 9: talking about the plywood over the window. That's what I remember.
• 36:10
  Speaker 7: There's no record of this interview in the files we've
• 36:12
  Speaker 7: been able to obtain, so it's not entirely clear what
• 36:17
  Speaker 7: Mike Burton is remembering. He didn't know if he'd been
• 36:20
  Speaker 7: brought in by the DA or by a public defender
• 36:23
  Speaker 7: or what. He just remembers that at some point he
• 36:26
  Speaker 7: had interpreted for Charlie when he was interviewed about Brian's death.
• 36:31
  Speaker 9: You know, the possibility. I don't think this is right,
• 36:34
  Speaker 9: but it's possible.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 36:35
  Speaker 9: His mother was so controlling and so involved, it's possible
• 36:41
  Speaker 9: she asked me to interpret it for somebody. I mean,
• 36:46
  Speaker 9: that's possible. She did that all the time, you know.
• 36:49
  Speaker 9: And I'd always try to help Charlie out if Charlie
• 36:53
  Speaker 9: was in trouble a lot over the years, you know,
• 36:55
  Speaker 9: and with his neighbors and people.
• 36:57
  Speaker 7: Around, Charlie's difficult communicate with. But Mike Burton has known
• 37:02
  Speaker 7: him for more than forty years. And if there's anyone
• 37:05
  Speaker 7: in Floyd County who could help us speak with Charlie,
• 37:08
  Speaker 7: it was Mike. He volunteered to go with us when
• 37:11
  Speaker 7: we went to interview Charlie.
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: All right, well, should we have learned of the Silver
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: Creek anymore?
• 37:18
  Speaker 9: All right, we'll we'll just meet you over there.
• 37:21
  Speaker 11: All right, Thank you so much, sir, Thank you.
• 37:24
  Speaker 7: On our way back to Silver Creek, Susan Dan and
• 37:27
  Speaker 7: I talked about what we just learned from Mike Burton.
• 37:31
  Speaker 11: All right, so we're on the way to the Silver
• 37:34
  Speaker 11: Creek anymore, taking.
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: The back roads because the Bridge is out in Buggerhaller
• 37:41
  Speaker 5: and I am really curious about what Mike Burton told
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: us about his memory of some I think the first
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: word he used was a deposition, which wouldn't be right,
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: but some kind of like cork connected proceeding. That was
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: what makes the most sense to me, just guessing is
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: that I asked him in because the DA needed to
• 38:02
  Speaker 5: hear from Charlie.
• 38:04
  Speaker 7: So basically what he said is that he was asked
• 38:07
  Speaker 7: to come interpret for Charlie and this was before the trial.
• 38:12
  Speaker 11: We think this sounds pretty sure.
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: He thought it was before the trial, but he recalled
• 38:17
  Speaker 5: Charlie is saying there are people in the house and
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: there was plywood on a window and he saw someone
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: else outside.
• 38:24
  Speaker 7: According to Dallas Battle, Charlie told him that on the
• 38:28
  Speaker 7: knight Brian had been shot, he'd seen someone outside of
• 38:31
  Speaker 7: the living room window. But the window with plywood over
• 38:35
  Speaker 7: it isn't the living room window. That's the window in
• 38:38
  Speaker 7: Brian's bedroom.
• 38:42
  Speaker 5: I don't think Charlie was saying he saw someone through
• 38:44
  Speaker 5: a window. I think he's saying the boys went in
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: and out through the window.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: That's what I think he's saying too.
• 38:49
  Speaker 11: Boy boys would go in out window, boys.
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: Walk in out through window, go to store. The boys
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: would go in and out of the window and then
• 38:58
  Speaker 5: walk to the store. The mini mark that's the window.
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: That's why, That's why he couldn't figure out the inside outside,
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: because it's both.
• 39:05
  Speaker 11: He sees boys going in through the window and out
• 39:09
  Speaker 11: the win.
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: So Charlie's confusion isn't that he can't tell inside outside apart.
• 39:13
  Speaker 5: It's that he's like, well, obviously it's both. How do
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: you focus on inside and outside when you're describing someone
• 39:19
  Speaker 5: going from in?
• 39:19
  Speaker 7: Now, Charlie could not have seen Brian's bedroom window on
• 39:24
  Speaker 7: the night Brian was shot. He was in the Bowlings
• 39:27
  Speaker 7: living room facing towards the window that overlooked their front yard.
• 39:32
  Speaker 7: There is no possibility that he observed anything at Brian's
• 39:35
  Speaker 7: bedroom window that night, but it's very possible likely even
• 39:40
  Speaker 7: that on previous occasions Charlie had seen boys going in
• 39:44
  Speaker 7: and out of Brian's bedroom window.
• 39:47
  Speaker 5: I get the sense too, that Charlie struggles to convey
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: concepts and time and Jorlie where and when things take place.
• 39:58
  Speaker 13: I mean, basically, Charlie was just at the same thing
• 40:00
  Speaker 13: that Jamie said, which was people would, Yeah, people would
• 40:05
  Speaker 13: always go in and out, because that's just like you
• 40:07
  Speaker 13: know how they got into hang out of the room.
• 40:10
  Speaker 11: They're just like I've hopping through the window. So he
• 40:13
  Speaker 11: gives answers that are true for certain substance of time,
• 40:17
  Speaker 11: but he doesn't orient his answers and doesn't understand the
• 40:20
  Speaker 11: questions are focused on certain time periods either.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 40:29
  Speaker 7: To find out if this could really be what happened,
• 40:31
  Speaker 7: we needed to hear from Charlie himself, and thanks to
• 40:34
  Speaker 7: Mike Burton, it seemed like that was going to be possible.
• 40:38
  Speaker 7: But for that to happen, we'd have to find Charlie first.
• 40:43
  Speaker 11: Well, this is frustrating.
• 40:47
  Speaker 7: There's Charlie.
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: We tried every address in Silver Creek that Charlie had
• 40:54
  Speaker 5: ever been associated with. He wasn't anywhere we could find.
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: While trying to figure out out what to do, I
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: stopped into the Silver Creek Mini Mart to get some
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: snacks and asked someone at the store if they happened
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: to know where I could find Charlie. They didn't, but
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: they pointed across a field outside the mini mart that
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: guy over there might know.
• 41:14
  Speaker 11: I was told, I'm sorry bout you.
• 41:18
  Speaker 5: They're looking for a guy named Charlie Childers, and some
• 41:21
  Speaker 5: of the store told us, you might know where he is.
• 41:25
  Speaker 5: The man had in fact known Charlie and Wayne, but
• 41:28
  Speaker 5: he wasn't able to tell me where I could find them.
• 41:33
  Speaker 11: So something happened. They're largely homeless.
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: Now he knows them pretty well, and he said like
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: as of like a week ago, they were staying at
• 41:44
  Speaker 5: this house right up the road here.
• 41:47
  Speaker 11: But he also said that they were homeless.
• 41:48
  Speaker 7: And.
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: I guess I've lost the house and now they're just
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: staying with him and died.
• 41:56
  Speaker 9: Yeah, she controlled everything.
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: While in Floyd County, we'd heard a few stories about
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: Wayne and Charlie's mother, Patty Childers, and we'd come to
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: learn that she had a personal interest in this case.
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: Shortly after trial, Bryan's mother, Deborah Bowling, had written a
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: letter to the Roman News Tribune. The letter was lengthy
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: and covered a variety of topics, but it closed by
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: thanking a few people by name for their help in
• 42:26
  Speaker 5: securing Caine's and Lee's conviction. The following week, the paper
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: ran another letter, this time under the heading friend offers
• 42:35
  Speaker 5: views in Brian Bowling case. It was signed by Wayne Childers.
• 42:40
  Speaker 8: I am a citizen of Floyd County, and I would
• 42:42
  Speaker 8: like to respond to the letter in the February nineteen paper.
• 42:46
  Speaker 8: My brother and I testified for the Bowling family in court,
• 42:50
  Speaker 8: but our names weren't mentioned even once in this letter
• 42:52
  Speaker 8: as a thank you. What everyone doesn't know is that
• 42:55
  Speaker 8: Brian Bowling had come to me numerous times about redacted.
• 43:00
  Speaker 8: I responded by saying, this is a family matter, and
• 43:03
  Speaker 8: then I wouldn't get involved. As far as friends are concerned,
• 43:07
  Speaker 8: they want you when they need you, but when you
• 43:09
  Speaker 8: need them, they slap you in the face. Brian will
• 43:13
  Speaker 8: be truly missed by myself and my family. He was
• 43:15
  Speaker 8: a good kid and didn't deserve to die, but I
• 43:18
  Speaker 8: believe he will be better off and get the attention
• 43:21
  Speaker 8: he needed from his father in heaven.
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: The reaction was done by the Roman News Tribune. The
• 43:28
  Speaker 5: editor decided that whatever the family matter was, that should
• 43:31
  Speaker 5: be removed before the letter ran in the paper. But
• 43:34
  Speaker 5: when I stumbled across this letter in the newspaper's archives,
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: it's harsh tone stood out to me. What could have
• 43:39
  Speaker 5: possibly motivated Wayne to write a public letter declaring that
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: Brian was better off dead because God would give him
• 43:45
  Speaker 5: more attention than his family did, and we asked Brian's
• 43:48
  Speaker 5: uncle if he'd known what this letter was about.
• 43:53
  Speaker 12: Yeah, I know, it's likeful what that is?
• 43:54
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 43:55
  Speaker 12: The reason for it is the Childers less, Wayne and Charlie,
• 43:59
  Speaker 12: their mom and day. Patty and James never had mentioned
• 44:03
  Speaker 12: all these people, you know, think this person, this person,
• 44:05
  Speaker 12: this person, and she didn't think the Childers. So Patty
• 44:10
  Speaker 12: Childers was called and kiss and raising all kind of
• 44:12
  Speaker 12: came calls. We didn't think them.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: That's what that's.
• 44:19
  Speaker 5: That is correct, that's what they're upset.
• 44:21
  Speaker 12: Yep, that's it also.
• 44:24
  Speaker 5: But I've been told several times now that Wayne could
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: not read her write.
• 44:28
  Speaker 12: Correct.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Who do you think wrote that letter?
• 44:30
  Speaker 12: Patty?
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 44:31
  Speaker 12: Them all, And that's what it was. She was upset
• 44:33
  Speaker 12: because she didn't call them by name to thank them.
• 44:37
  Speaker 12: It's in the newspaper.
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: When we spoke to Amanda and Kenneth, they remembered this
• 44:42
  Speaker 5: letter as well. And what the consensus seems to be
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: as a Patty wrote, that makes sense to hear that, Patten.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because she would get mad about a certain things,
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: you know, and because their names ready to wind their
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: name mentioned, because they didn't want their name mentioned.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Wayne and Charlie and Petty didn't want their.
• 45:09
  Speaker 6: Name mentioned, you know, because they were scared, scared that
• 45:13
  Speaker 6: he thought Lee.
• 45:14
  Speaker 11: I guess Lee was gonna come and kill him.
• 45:17
  Speaker 9: Yes, Charlie was scared to date it.
• 45:20
  Speaker 10: I mean absolutely really wanted to be foot on what
• 45:24
  Speaker 10: he called that or you know the witness.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean he was scared.
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: Today, Amanda and Kenneth remember that Charlie had been nervous
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: about his role in this case, and they think now
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: that it may have been Lee Clark that he'd been
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: worried about. But Lee had been arrested before Charlie was
• 45:45
  Speaker 5: ever interviewed, and he's been behind bars ever since. And
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: from Charlie's trial testimony, it's far from clear that he
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: has any idea who Lee Clark even is. So was
• 45:56
  Speaker 5: Charlie really scared of Lee? Or could there have been
• 45:59
  Speaker 5: something else that he'd been afraid of. With Mike Burton's help,
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: we'd be able to ask Charlie that ourselves, And while
• 46:07
  Speaker 5: we hadn't found him yet, we knew now at least
• 46:09
  Speaker 5: that he was still somewhere in Floyd County. Next week
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: on proof.
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: They booked on a trial with Caine because they know
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: if they tried me separate. They were never putt to
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: get a guilt attorney. They used caine circumstance to complete me.
• 46:33
  Speaker 7: What do you think was the most compelling evidence against them?
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: In your money, Josh?
• 46:38
  Speaker 11: Is just the money?
• 46:39
  Speaker 7: Do you think if he hadn't taken the stem, I.
• 46:42
  Speaker 12: Think they would have gone off to it.
• 46:46
  Speaker 6: Let me tell you something, I ain't got no money.
• 46:48
  Speaker 6: If I had money back then, Bobby Lee Cook, well
• 46:52
  Speaker 6: known attorney, well known around here. If I'd have had
• 46:56
  Speaker 6: fifty sixty thousand dollars, he probably would never want to
• 46:59
  Speaker 6: privably would Hey.
• 47:08
  Speaker 7: You've been listening to Proof, a podcast by Red Marble Media.
• 47:11
  Speaker 7: We'll be back next Monday for episode ten. Send us
• 47:15
  Speaker 7: your questions at proofcrimepodat gmail dot com. We'll respond during
• 47:19
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• 47:24
  Speaker 7: our executive producer. Our logo was designed by Drew Hosski
• 47:28
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• 47:32
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• 47:36
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• 47:47
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• 47:54
  Speaker 2: That's all for this week.
• 47:55
  Speaker 7: Thanks for listening.