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Math Therapy is now a book! Vanessa tells all ... · Math Therapy

• 0:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't like being interviewed.
• 0:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: it's just so much energy to answer all those questions.
• 0:12
  David Kochberg: Well, that's, we're off to a great start already.
• 0:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: K, go.
• 0:17
  David Kochberg: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of math therapy.
• 0:23
  David Kochberg: I am your host, David Kochberg, and today I'm interviewing the normal host of Math Therapy, Vanessa Vakharia AKA The Math Guru.
• 0:35
  David Kochberg: And, uh, why am I talking to you?
• 0:38
  David Kochberg: Why am I hosting today?
• 0:39
  David Kochberg: You rightfully ask?
• 0:41
  David Kochberg: Well, Vanessa happens to have amalgamated her life's work into a book.
• 0:53
  David Kochberg: What is that book titled?
• 0:56
  David Kochberg: It's called Math Therapy.
• 0:58
  David Kochberg: So, uh, so you know what we thought here, the Math Therapy team of the two of us, was we thought, you know, why don't we flip the mic around actually we're using a bi-directional mic.
• 1:12
  David Kochberg: And, why don't I grill The Math Guru herself, is this coming out when the book is out, is the book out?
• 1:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 1:22
  David Kochberg: The book is out.
• 1:22
  David Kochberg: So we want to talk about the book.
• 1:24
  David Kochberg: So, um, was that a good, was that a good intro?
• 1:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: That was so long.
• 1:29
  David Kochberg: Oh, all right.
• 1:30
  David Kochberg: Well maybe I'll edit some out.
• 1:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know if anyone's still listening.
• 1:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: All right.
• 1:33
  David Kochberg: So I want to start with the real hard hitting journalism.
• 1:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because that's what this podcast is if anything, people come here for the hard hitting journalism.
• 1:43
  David Kochberg: Yes.
• 1:44
  David Kochberg: So what I want to,
• 1:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'd like to make this 20 minutes and we're at three.
• 1:48
  David Kochberg: I am the host.
• 1:51
  David Kochberg: And you are my guest.
• 1:55
  David Kochberg: So you interviewed me.
• 1:57
  David Kochberg: Is that coming out, has that been out?
• 1:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's going to be after this one, David.
• 2:00
  David Kochberg: So in the next one, right, so the next interview, since you didn't ask me this, I would like to start by asking you.
• 2:09
  David Kochberg: What do you think most annoys me about producing you.
• 2:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 2:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wow.
• 2:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: I thought this is going to be about the book.
• 2:17
  David Kochberg: You think this is some puff piece?
• 2:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 2:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do I think annoys you most about working with me?
• 2:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fuck, where to start.
• 2:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually do think I know what it is.
• 2:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think it's that I'm a Gemini and you're a Taurus.
• 2:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so I want to do everything really, really fast.
• 2:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you want to take your time and do it.
• 2:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I think it actually really annoys you when I try to speed through things like say, I want to make this episode 20 minutes and we're already at three or whatever, just like put on the mic and just record when you're trying to like make, you know, do quality control.
• 2:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think it's my speed and lack of attention to, my attention deficit?
• 2:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Am I right?
• 3:00
  David Kochberg: Great answer.
• 3:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you have an answer as to what annoys you most that I,
• 3:03
  David Kochberg: We don't have time for that.
• 3:04
  David Kochberg: But great answer and highly accurate.
• 3:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 3:07
  David Kochberg: Thank you for your vulnerability.
• 3:10
  David Kochberg: All right.
• 3:10
  David Kochberg: So extremely briefly, how did Math Therapy start and how did it evolve into what is destined to be a best selling book?
• 3:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's really hard when you ask a question like that and preface it with very briefly.
• 3:24
  David Kochberg: You are the one who said you want this over with already! Fine take as much time as you want!
• 3:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, how did Math Therapy start?
• 3:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 3:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: So in brief, I mean, first of all, I've been teaching math forever and ever.
• 3:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've been tutoring math for, 20 years now.
• 3:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: and I have always been doing math therapy with students without having an official name for it.
• 3:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And by that I mean, I have always been very, very invested in helping students build better relationships with math.
• 3:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Through healing underlying math trauma.
• 3:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: So really focused on the emotional component of math learning.
• 3:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now that being said, somehow somewhere along the way, I started doing a lot of press about math anxiety and talking to news outlets about math teaching.
• 4:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: And one day, me and my PR person at the time, Sabina, who is the original creator of this podcast, we were at Global Television and I was doing an interview as normal and I was on air with this guy, the host, this man.
• 4:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: And basically anytime I go on air with a host, and this is so the stereotype about journalism, but it's true, I go on and the camera starts rolling and the host will start reading from their script.
• 4:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: "And here with me right now is Vanessa Vakharia, the Math Guru.
• 4:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God".
• 4:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then they'll start going into a math trauma response.
• 4:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like for real, they'll be like,"oh my God math.
• 4:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, I can't believe we're talking about math.
• 4:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I hated math".
• 4:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: But this time was different.
• 4:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because this particular host went one step further.
• 4:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And he said,"I hated math so much in school, and that's why I became a journalist".
• 4:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's normal, they all say that.
• 5:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Then he said,"I'm so bad at math.
• 5:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: I need my toes to count to 20".
• 5:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: On live television, national television across Canada, takes off his shoe, takes off his sock, and then proceeds to count to 20 on his bare feet on TV.
• 5:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I, I was stunned.
• 5:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: I thought to myself, what the actual fuck, but number two, I thought, I can't believe you're so comfortable on air just saying to millions of Canadians that you're so bad at uh, at math that, you can't count to 20.
• 5:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because that's not, we know that's not true, he can obviously count to 20 without his toes.
• 5:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it was just that reinforcement of that myth, you know, of that idea that we're comfortable bragging and about not being good at math, but obviously he was so traumatized that like, you would just do that.
• 5:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was just crazy.
• 5:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways.
• 5:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I left, and Sabina looked at me and she said, oh my God, these people need math therapy.
• 5:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like, oh my God.
• 5:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then the podcast was born.
• 5:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that's how the podcast started.
• 5:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: And briefly it started.
• 6:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you, if you've been a long time listener, first time caller.
• 6:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, sorry.
• 6:04
  David Kochberg: Still don't know how to use that, do you.
• 6:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry, Zak.
• 6:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, if you've been a longtime listener, you'll know that in the first few seasons, I actually interviewed people with math trauma.
• 6:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I was interviewing people who were anxious around math and had bad experiences with math and slowly that morphed into talking to people in math, people who liked math about math anxiety and about what they thought led to it.
• 6:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then that morphed into its current state, which is really talking to educators about all the work that surrounds the hard work of healing math trauma.
• 6:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Student centered practices, representation, equity, problem-solving, productive struggle, and just realizing what a village it takes to heal math trauma.
• 6:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So then from there.
• 6:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I started doing professional development on it because there was this real need, and, you know, I was getting all these emails from teachers, listening to the podcast, being like, how do I use this information in my classroom?
• 6:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I put together a five step process based on what the work I've been doing with students for 20 years, the steps I actually go through on how to identify math trauma, prevent it, heal it, rewrite students' math stories, measure their progress in a way that isn't just reliant on grades.
• 7:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then I wrote a book.
• 7:11
  David Kochberg: Great job
• 7:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: That wasn't bad, actually,
• 7:14
  David Kochberg: I wouldn't call it brief, but
• 7:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: It took six minutes.
• 7:16
  David Kochberg: You had to cover a lot.
• 7:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I had to cover a lot.
• 7:18
  David Kochberg: And how are, at this very moment, the book is not out, but it's coming out,
• 7:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: David!
• 7:24
  David Kochberg: When we're talking about, because you can't put yourself into the future.
• 7:28
  David Kochberg: I mean right now at this, fine, pulling back the curtain on how a podcast gets made.
• 7:33
  David Kochberg: We're recording this in advance.
• 7:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fine.
• 7:34
  David Kochberg: So how do you feel right now at this moment?
• 7:37
  David Kochberg: Are you nervous?
• 7:38
  David Kochberg: Are you excited or, um, in a panic, or what do you, what are your feelings about the book coming out?
• 7:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not in a panic.
• 7:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I will say like, I'm proud.
• 7:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I have, you know, we talk about math trauma, I have real writing trauma.
• 7:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I won't go too in depth into it, but I remember like, to me, the idea of writing an essay or writing a cohesive story was the most stressful thing for me in high school.
• 8:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: I remember we would have English exams and you hand wrote them, like we hand write exams, you don't have a computer or anything.
• 8:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Also, it was the early two thousands.
• 8:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways.
• 8:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: I would sit there and there'd always be the essay question on the exam.
• 8:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: And in my mind, I would be like, if I just can avoid writing this essay question, maybe it'll like disappear.
• 8:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I would answer all the other questions on the exam.
• 8:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'd wait and I'd wait.
• 8:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then when I'd have like eight minutes left in the exam, I'd be like, fuck, I've got to do this essay question.
• 8:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'd always just completely bomb it because I couldn't, I mean, eight minutes, you can't write an essay in eight minutes and I just, I hated it, it, just even thinking about it stresses me out.
• 8:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then that really culminated when I did my master's degree, I remember the reason I didn't want to do it is I knew I would have to write a master's thesis, but I did it anyway.
• 8:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: And my writing of my master's thesis, which by the way, it's called Imagining a World Where Paris Hilton Loves Math, and I was so excited about it, but the process of writing it nearly destroyed me.
• 8:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I'm not, I won't get into the nitty gritty, but like my mental health went down the drain.
• 9:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was so horrible.
• 9:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was, oh my God.
• 9:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just even the research and that, them being so, so pedantic and not being, I remember there was a whole fuss because I used the word adolescent instead of teenager.
• 9:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And literally because of that word, I had to do a whole extra semester.
• 9:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't.
• 9:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm sorry, this isn't making sense, but I remember it was like
• 9:25
  David Kochberg: But the trauma's coming through.
• 9:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 9:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was, it was horrible.
• 9:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was just like the nitpicking over every single word and the punctuation and the dah, dah, dah.
• 9:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was just like, I.
• 9:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was, it was a lot.
• 9:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: So when it came time to write this book, I was really excited about, I wanted to create something for educators to use.
• 9:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I wanted, I.
• 9:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really wanted to do it.
• 9:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I was really scared.
• 9:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, I really hope that trauma doesn't come back.
• 9:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: I hope I don't freeze.
• 9:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Cause that's what would happen.
• 9:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I
• 9:51
  David Kochberg: Just the task of writing?
• 9:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: The task of, of putting, this is why I have a podcast is because I like to just blah.
• 9:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, like it's, it's hard to think of story through from beginning to end and plan it out and make it make sense and, and cover all the important points.
• 10:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: That idea of making something cohesive and concise is so stressful to me.
• 10:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was just, I had the best editor.
• 10:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm, I, I'm actually getting emotional.
• 10:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: So Debbie, if you're listening, I had the best editor at Corwin, Debbie Hardin, who just got me.
• 10:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: She got it.
• 10:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: She got, she was like, just write stuff down, let it flow and I'll edit it, which is how my relationship with you works.
• 10:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I will say this.
• 10:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not like I just gave her a bunch of garbage and she edited.
• 10:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 10:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's not what happened.
• 10:40
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 10:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: The fact that she said that in the first place, allowed me to unlock, um, It's not like I'm a bad writer or a storyteller, honestly.
• 10:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I'm a bit all over the place.
• 10:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fine.
• 10:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I need some spit shining as we all know.
• 10:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, but it allowed, knowing I didn't have to give her a perfect finished product, it unlocked at all.
• 11:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was able to just sit and write and let the stuff come out.
• 11:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just knowing someone was going to look it over and, and fix it up if it needed to, or make suggestions or I've, just not knowledge like unlocked.
• 11:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: And actually, this is so funny we're talking about this now because I'm like, this I feel is, it's the same thing as when I say when students know that the answer isn't the goal they're able to actually tackle the problem.
• 11:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's what it was because I knew that a finished product wasn't the goal.
• 11:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: The goal was just to get some stuff out there and to start, it just made the writing process so much less stressful and I really enjoyed it and we, it was just, anyways, I just, Debbie is, I can't thank her enough.
• 11:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: What was the question?
• 11:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, how do I feel now?
• 11:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: So my point is, my point is after all that, I'm actually proud that I wrote this book because I thought it was something I might never be able to do.
• 11:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I was like, I was so traumatized by my master's thesis.
• 11:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know that I ever wanted to, I always thought if I wrote a book, I'll just get you to ghost write it right?
• 11:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's always been my plan.
• 11:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'll just say a bunch of shit and you'll write it up for me.
• 11:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: So the fact that I wrote it out, um, and did it, so I'm proud.
• 12:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's number one.
• 12:02
  David Kochberg: Good.
• 12:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm excited because I know the reactions I got to, like when I talk to teachers and the professional development, and so many teachers are writing, emailing me saying they're using all my stuff in their classrooms, now I'm going to have something really cohesive and concrete to give them with like, you know, in an hour professional development, there's only so much you can talk about.
• 12:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: This, like goes so into it.
• 12:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: It really shows them how to do math therapy, how to turn their classrooms into a math therapy classroom.
• 12:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm excited.
• 12:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then also, obviously a part of me is like, is anyone going to read this book?
• 12:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So there's, there's that part, but I've, I mean, there's no point in thinking about that.
• 12:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think it's funny, like in today's world or you get so stuck on the, like, and now I have to promote this thing.
• 12:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, I don't want to get into that really.
• 12:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just want to.
• 12:43
  David Kochberg: Even though you just filmed 20 hours of content.
• 12:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 12:47
  David Kochberg: But yes, I know
• 12:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm trying to do it out of excitement.
• 12:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like I'm, so I'm excited.
• 12:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not panicked.
• 12:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm just like, oh, I hope people buy it and like it I guess.
• 12:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I'm excited to like, it's, it's pretty cool that this all came from my own math trauma when I was in school.
• 13:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: And now.
• 13:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 13:09
  David Kochberg: That's great.
• 13:09
  David Kochberg: That's, I'm glad to hear that you're proud and excited and it makes sense to be nervous.
• 13:14
  David Kochberg: And the way you wrapped it up in terms of the roots of it, I was thinking about that idea of the wounded healer.
• 13:22
  David Kochberg: Oh,
• 13:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because Chiron is the asteroid that represents the wounded healer in a birth chart.
• 13:31
  David Kochberg: Not necessarily where I was going with it.
• 13:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I just want to say mine is in my 12th house, which is all about the subconscious, which means it is like my thing in this life to be a wound, like the wounded healing for me comes from like the subconscious, which has past trauma.
• 13:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I heal through healing other people's subconsciouses.
• 13:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry.
• 13:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 13:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 13:52
  David Kochberg: Can't resist taking over, taking control.
• 13:54
  David Kochberg: It's alright.
• 13:55
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 13:55
  David Kochberg: We're like two control freaks, but in very opposing ways.
• 13:58
  David Kochberg: But, yeah.
• 13:58
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 13:58
  David Kochberg: Sure.
• 13:59
  David Kochberg: What was I going to say?
• 14:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know.
• 14:01
  David Kochberg: I've lost my train of thought.
• 14:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's a hard thing with the podcast is when the, when the guests throws you off course, you've gotta be able to either keep going with it.
• 14:09
  David Kochberg: And you are a seasoned professional, whereas this is my first, my first guest hosting.
• 14:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're doing really great.
• 14:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Actually you're getting great info to me, I can't believe I've been talking.
• 14:16
  David Kochberg: I love how before this, you were like, you do all the talking.
• 14:19
  David Kochberg: I don't want to talk at all.
• 14:19
  David Kochberg: And it's like, you're the guest.
• 14:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Next question.
• 14:23
  David Kochberg: Uh, no, I do, I was going to say that I do think that that is what makes, I mean sure, social media and creating content and stuff can always feel kind of artificial, cause you have to, there is an artifice to creating stuff for promoting, but you have to do that, that's part of it.
• 14:39
  David Kochberg: But I think overall, especially in the podcast, because of the way you talk to people, your authenticity comes through and it's clear that you really care about this stuff.
• 14:48
  David Kochberg: And it's, it's common that people get into something because they feel connected to it emotionally and empathy comes from having gone through something similar to the people that you're empathizing with.
• 15:02
  David Kochberg: And so, thank you for sharing all of that backstory because I think it is a really interesting context.
• 15:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you.
• 15:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's why I always say that math teachers with their own math trauma are some of the most powerful teachers because they can empathize with their students.
• 15:16
  David Kochberg: Agreed.
• 15:18
  David Kochberg: I also, the producer in me can't stop thinking that I, I'm worried your voice is quieter than mine because you're further from the mic than me, but I don't know.
• 15:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I'm louder than you.
• 15:26
  David Kochberg: You normally are, but I find in this, for some reason you being the guest, you're like a lot more,
• 15:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: All right
• 15:31
  David Kochberg: reserved.
• 15:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not being reserved at all.
• 15:33
  David Kochberg: Don't hit the table, please.
• 15:36
  David Kochberg: Uh, all right, moving right along.
• 15:37
  David Kochberg: So you've interviewed some of the biggest names in math education.
• 15:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh!
• 15:41
  David Kochberg: From Jo Boaler to Peter Liljedahl to the creators of the Netflix Christmas STEM movie, Jingle Jangle, all of whom I now know everything about.
• 15:51
  David Kochberg: Uh, so what do you think
• 15:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Jo Boaler actually wrote the forward to my book.
• 15:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Actually, everyone should know that.
• 15:56
  David Kochberg: Facts, facts, facts.
• 15:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: She's the best.
• 15:58
  David Kochberg: What do you think young Vanessa fresh out of teacher's college would think about where you have ended up in education?
• 16:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wow.
• 16:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I would say that young Vanessa who was failing math would probably be like, what the actual fuck.
• 16:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I always tell my students who are, who are stressed out about their futures being like, I don't know what I want to do, I'm always like, do you think when I was 16, I was like, I'm going to go into math education and talk to everyone about math trauma.
• 16:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like sometimes you can't plan this stuff.
• 16:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think young Vanessa would be like, yeah right, that's the weirdest thing I've ever heard.
• 16:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like number one.
• 16:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: But thinking of me in teachers college, you know, I don't know that the young Vanessa would be so surprised.
• 16:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've always had a thirst for fame.
• 16:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know,
• 16:50
  David Kochberg: Okay, well, this is going to come as a shock to nobody.
• 16:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've always wanted to be kind of famous, not that I am famous, but I think like being like, oh, if you were going to tell young Vanessa and teacher's college, you know what you're going to end up doing with your teaching, you're going to end up, uh, ranting on every public platform you possibly can about teaching math, she'd be like, Yeah, that checks out.
• 17:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like anything for a buck.
• 17:15
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 17:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Actually I make no money off of any of this ranting.
• 17:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Our podcast is not sponsored, neither is my social media content, but you know what I mean.
• 17:22
  David Kochberg: Growth mindset.
• 17:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Should you delete this maybe?
• 17:25
  David Kochberg: No, because it segues great into one of my other questions.
• 17:28
  David Kochberg: I was going to save it till later on, but we're just going to go straight to it.
• 17:32
  David Kochberg: So, there's been a lot of discussion about the perils and dangers of math education being taken over by quote unquote, edu celebs.
• 17:42
  David Kochberg: Do you think now is the best time to be pivoting so hard into a career as an edu celeb.
• 17:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God.
• 17:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let me start with this.
• 17:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Everyone loves to hate a celebrity.
• 18:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 18:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Everyone loves to hate a celebrity.
• 18:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Here's what I've always thought about fame.
• 18:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: The coolest part about fame is that people listen to you.
• 18:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I remember when I wrote my master's thesis, by the way.
• 18:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I pitched this to the University of British Columbia, my thing was called Imagining a World Where Paris Hilton Loves Math, great, I've told you that.
• 18:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I say that because I was like, you know what we Need to do, we need to pay Paris Hilton to get on her platform and be like, math is cool.
• 18:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because my whole thesis was about how like, math is marketed in a way that makes it impossible for like most of the population to get into it, cause it's all about like, nerdy, like anti social people doing math.
• 18:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways, the point is, my whole pitch was a celebrity could literally, think about when Taylor Swift like speaks up about an election, like thousands of people, maybe millions vote for like,
• 18:49
  David Kochberg: Yeah, the original influencer.
• 18:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: The original influencers.
• 18:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so, so I actually think this whole edu celeb thing is, let me think, let me, let me think about my answer here.
• 18:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, first of all, this whole idea about education being at the risk of being taken over by edu celebs, I.
• 19:07
  David Kochberg: Well I mostly posed the question for entertainment value.
• 19:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I want to answer it because I'm because I'm sure some people think that.
• 19:15
  David Kochberg: I mean, yeah, uh, in honesty, it is part of the discussion.
• 19:18
  David Kochberg: It is something that we talk about it because you talk about it because there is a discussion about.
• 19:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know how true this is.
• 19:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's like, Okay.
• 19:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: What are we actually talking about?
• 19:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are we talking about there, how there are, which there are in every industry, people who are like, well-known?
• 19:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, okay.
• 19:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: There are people who well known and that makes them, I mean, the term edu celeb is so absurd to me that I can't even say it, but like it's like, so they're well-known and they have influence, I guess, because people know them and like them.
• 19:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so
• 19:47
  David Kochberg: I think what you're trying to say is with the, the old adage,"with great power comes, great responsibility".
• 19:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes! I do, I do say that.
• 19:54
  David Kochberg: And yes, the Paris Hilton idea, the idea of, you can use your fame for the powers of good.
• 20:01
  David Kochberg: And I think that there is a lot to be said for that.
• 20:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I also think who is like, we're talking about education, like the idea of an edu celeb.
• 20:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like, we're not talking about Paris Hilton.
• 20:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're talking about a person in the math education world who is very, very well-known and people look up to like, is that our definition of edu celeb?
• 20:20
  David Kochberg: We really don't have to, things were going very smoothly.
• 20:22
  David Kochberg: We don't have to go down too deep into this
• 20:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fine.
• 20:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just, I just think we all need to rethink what we're, if there are people who are like, oh my God, math education is being taken over by edu celebs, what is the actual, what what's what's beneath that sentiment.
• 20:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just
• 20:38
  David Kochberg: Well yes, as an outsider who sees it all, various trends can, can be either jumped on and then, in anything when something gets popular
• 20:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 20:48
  David Kochberg: There's always going to be haters.
• 20:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's it.
• 20:49
  David Kochberg: Haters are going to hate.
• 20:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Haters are going to
• 20:52
  David Kochberg: But then
• 20:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: As Taylor Swift said, haters will hate.
• 20:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 20:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Period.
• 20:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think that's it.
• 20:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: I that's, that's actually what I think.
• 20:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that's my closing statement is that with great power comes great responsibility, but also I really think that when anything reaches a pinnacle of becoming popular and people are jumping on the trend, the haters are going to come out and that's our society.
• 21:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Next.
• 21:16
  David Kochberg: Great.
• 21:16
  David Kochberg: Very succinct.
• 21:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, it's just, it gets me fired up.
• 21:20
  David Kochberg: No.
• 21:20
  David Kochberg: I know, that's why I asked.
• 21:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I also, I don't want to be acting defensively and like being like, this is so ridiculous.
• 21:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, obviously.
• 21:28
  David Kochberg: No.
• 21:28
  David Kochberg: I asked the question ridiculously, intentionally.
• 21:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 21:32
  David Kochberg: Uh, okay.
• 21:32
  David Kochberg: Let's, let's, let's keep, let's go back to the, let's keep it.
• 21:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's been 25 minutes somehow.
• 21:38
  David Kochberg: Because we're just having a conversation.
• 21:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 21:41
  David Kochberg: So.
• 21:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: We should do this more.
• 21:45
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 21:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe we should co-host the pod
• 21:47
  David Kochberg: Let's see how this Oh, my God.
• 21:50
  David Kochberg: Let's see how this one goes.
• 21:52
  David Kochberg: Uh, okay.
• 21:53
  David Kochberg: So looking back on your storied career as a podcast host, is there any guest that stands out as the most surprising, in terms of, you went into the interview expecting one thing, or maybe not expecting anything, and then you left it and your mind was totally blown.
• 22:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I would have to like look through the guests.
• 22:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know what I'm just going to say something.
• 22:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I will tell you a guest that has stuck with me and that is Bex.
• 22:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Honestly, she has always stuck with me and I'll tell you why.
• 22:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: So for those of you who don't know, again, this was the early days of the podcast when I was just like trolling the internet for people who are talking shit about math.
• 22:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I saw a tweet, from this girl, and it said"the best part about adulting is being able to opt out of math".
• 22:40
  David Kochberg: Hmm.
• 22:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: And so I commented and I was like, oh,"sounds like math trauma, you should come on my podcast." And this girl was like, what?
• 22:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it ended up, I think being one of the nice, first of all, she ended up being such a lovely person.
• 22:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, she's from the UK, it was one of our first virtual interviews, because at the time we were doing them all in person, and she just came on being like, so self-assured and which makes her so amazing and just being like, seriously, like I suck at math, I've always been bad at it and I don't care.
• 23:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I didn't post that because I have math trauma it's cause like, for real, like I don't need to do math anymore and I was never good at it.
• 23:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like, that's fine.
• 23:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I kind of tried to convince her throughout the interview, I tried to pull some math therapy on her, and she, I was like, she worked in a bank, she worked in a bank.
• 23:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, you're doing math all the time.
• 23:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: And she was kind of like, ah, And it's so funny because six months later, I remember getting a message from her and she's like, you know, I ended up going on such a journey after our interview and having a huge talk with my mom and just realized how true it was that I've thought I was bad at math, and it kind of was impacting my self confidence, and you've really changed the way I see myself now.
• 23:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I've, I've kept in touch with her to this day.
• 23:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: It was like four years ago.
• 23:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I just thought, I mean, I guess it wasn't like a shocker, but it was a really surprising turnaround.
• 23:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: And also a surprising, like, going back to what you said about like on, maybe you said this in the other interview that people on Twitter just want to argue, you know, she had posted this thing and was just like, you know, causing shit on Twitter, kind of with it, but really at the core of it, she was just the nicest sweetest person and really open to like, self-reflecting about this.
• 24:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know.
• 24:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just, I just, I just, I loved that episode.
• 24:19
  David Kochberg: I agree.
• 24:20
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 24:20
  David Kochberg: And she was also very funny.
• 24:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: She was so funny.
• 24:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: She, I, I really hope she gets, she ends up on a reality show.
• 24:26
  David Kochberg: I do remember that one being really fascinating and that's true, that's true, that was one of the best, like you giving math therapy, or not you giving even, just talking like actual math therapy.
• 24:37
  David Kochberg: In terms of what the podcast was envisioned for in the first place.
• 24:41
  David Kochberg: Because I remember she was talking about how, didn't she have dyscalcula?
• 24:46
  David Kochberg: Like she had number dyslexia
• 24:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's right, that's right.
• 24:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it just occurred to her!
• 24:49
  David Kochberg: Yeah, exactly.
• 24:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: On the podcast!
• 24:51
  David Kochberg: So, yeah, it was,
• 24:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: She didn't know that that was even a thing.
• 24:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: She was like I'm always writing my letters, uh, my numbers backwards.
• 24:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was like, that's dyscalcula.
• 24:59
  David Kochberg: Oh, yeah, cause she was like, she would mix up the hours and how there's 60 minutes in an hour.
• 25:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: With a hundred cents in a dollar.
• 25:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: A lot of people, a lot of people that's actually very common.
• 25:08
  David Kochberg: Yeah, it was very fascinating.
• 25:10
  David Kochberg: I thought it was so cool, those kinds of opportunities to understand, in a lot of conversations, you're talking about learning disabilities and you're talking about accommodations and stuff like that, but that can be kind of esoteric or abstract.
• 25:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 25:26
  David Kochberg: And then it's all, I've thought it's been very interesting, a lot of your guests, where you can actually hear from some of them describe what actually is their experience.
• 25:37
  David Kochberg: How does their brain actually take in or interpret or struggle with stuff that like a quote unquote normal person might not, which I know is not, that's why I quote unquoted it, I know it's not appropriate to say normal.
• 25:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's using air-quotes guys.
• 25:50
  David Kochberg: And I also said the words, quote unquote.
• 25:53
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 25:53
  David Kochberg: So this was, that's very interesting.
• 25:55
  David Kochberg: Uh, okay.
• 25:56
  David Kochberg: Let's move, let's move on.
• 25:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm loving this interview.
• 25:58
  David Kochberg: I think it's going great.
• 25:59
  David Kochberg: I think I'm doing a great job.
• 26:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's been 30 minutes.
• 26:02
  David Kochberg: 30 minutes.
• 26:03
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 26:03
  David Kochberg: We're going to wrap up soon.
• 26:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: We are?
• 26:06
  David Kochberg: You want to keep going?
• 26:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, I'm just excited.
• 26:08
  David Kochberg: I'm, I planned.
• 26:10
  David Kochberg: I mean, I did it in the five minutes prior to the interview, but uh, okay.
• 26:13
  David Kochberg: Let's brighten things up.
• 26:16
  David Kochberg: Well, things have been mostly pretty bright, actually.
• 26:18
  David Kochberg: Let's make them even brighter.
• 26:19
  David Kochberg: What gives you hope about the future of education?
• 26:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: So nice.
• 26:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Not much.
• 26:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm kidding.
• 26:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm kidding.
• 26:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: What I, honestly, I am, that was a joke.
• 26:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because what gives me hope is, I'm telling you, talking, talking to the guests on this podcast, just having these conversations, um, with so many educators who are not putting it on, there are so passionate about what they're doing.
• 26:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's funny because I think the rest of the world has this perception of teachers, and it is usually based, look, I run a tutoring center.
• 26:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I see thousands of kids every single year.
• 26:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I talked to hundreds of parents, and the stories are familiar, right?
• 27:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like their, their kid will have a very bad experience with a teacher and ended up coming to us for tutoring, and now we're here to heal those math wounds.
• 27:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think the perception is if you're a parent, you know, with a kid that has a bad experience with the teacher.
• 27:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: You get the impression that, that teachers don't care, you know, and that they're not trying, and they're using the same old tech, whatever it is.
• 27:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 27:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I just, I think teachers get such a bad reputation, based on these one-off experiences, right?
• 27:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: And this is just negativity bias in the brain.
• 27:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: We remember the negative experiences more than the good ones, because we're trying to protect ourselves.
• 27:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, you know, their kid can have 10 amazing teachers, but there's one teacher that just, you know, like didn't pay attention to them or did whatever, whatever it is, I don't want to call out behavior.
• 27:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then they get this impression that, oh, teachers, you know, like they're not doing any work or they're just whatever.
• 27:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think it's so easy to see that all over, you know, we saw that during COVID, just all of the hate teachers were getting, being called glorified babysitters, like just all of this stuff.
• 28:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: And then on this side of things, I'm talking, every educator, I am talking to cares so much, they're putting in so much extra work.
• 28:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're buying resources with their own money, like, they are just, they care so deeply about improving the lives of their students, like with their whole heart and soul, and it does give me so much hope.
• 28:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because it's just, I mean, if you're listening to this and you're not an educator, it's like, there are so, like the majority of teachers out there truly love your children.
• 28:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, they love your children and they care for them and they want them to love themselves.
• 28:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what gives me the most hope.
• 28:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's talking to all these educators and, you know, you see the math wars and all this nonsense on Twitter and all of that is just nonsense.
• 28:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not, it's not happening in the classroom.
• 28:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: In the classroom, what's happening for the most part, are teachers just doing everything they can to improve the lives of their students.
• 28:53
  David Kochberg: That's beautiful.
• 28:54
  David Kochberg: I feel the same way, that listening to those conversations you're having with all these people similarly gives me hope for the future.
• 29:03
  David Kochberg: Something that I think has come up when you talk about this idea with other guests is, is indeed what you just said, which is that even if, for the most part, like sure, there's outliers who just want to argue or just want attention or whatever, but for the most part, even if you vehemently disagree with someone else in terms of education policy, chances are both of you are coming at it because you really care about helping kids.
• 29:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really believe that.
• 29:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Honestly.
• 29:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you for saying that.
• 29:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: I really believe that.
• 29:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think, I think that's what we have to remember is like, you know, you.
• 29:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God, you might disagree on whether it should be explicit instruction or not, the biggest debate of all time, but at the root of most of that is people who really just want to do what's best for the children and disagree about how to do it.
• 29:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like again, of course there's some shit disturbers, and people who are doing it for, you know, politics or whatever, but for the most part, I really do believe that.
• 30:00
  David Kochberg: Well that's, all right, that's great.
• 30:02
  David Kochberg: Look at us agreeing.
• 30:03
  David Kochberg: Uh, okay.
• 30:04
  David Kochberg: Let us wrap up with the final two questions that I ask every guest, starting with this, my first interview.
• 30:16
  David Kochberg: And, uh, they're not what you think they are!
• 30:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay good.
• 30:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I don't have answers to those.
• 30:21
  David Kochberg: What would you say to someone who thinks that they are a math person, and wants to share their love of math with the world?
• 30:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, that would just be music to my ears.
• 30:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let me tell you.
• 30:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, um, if someone said that to me, I would be pumped.
• 30:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think the key is actually is to find out, everyone has a strength in terms of sharing knowledge and a passion for something.
• 30:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'd be very invested in like this person's personality and where to help them shine.
• 30:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, are you, you don't need to be a teacher, you don't have to enter the classroom, but if you want to, we need you.
• 30:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Teachers are quitting at an alarming rate.
• 31:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, you know, but there are so many ways to share a love for learning, including like, honestly, you hop on social media and talk about it, start breaking some of those stereotypes, like be that person, when you go out with friends and your friends are like, I'm not a math person, that you're the person like helping them realize that they're more capable than they think.
• 31:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think there are so many ways to spread that love of math.
• 31:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: And we need all of the creative, innovative, unique approaches to changing the stereotype that, that, you know, most of us can't do math.
• 31:31
  David Kochberg: Beautiful.
• 31:32
  David Kochberg: Beautiful.
• 31:33
  David Kochberg: And the last question that I ask every single time I interview someone, what would you change about this podcast?
• 31:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um,
• 31:46
  David Kochberg: One thing
• 31:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I will tell you one thing, I will tell you one thing.
• 31:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: I would record way more episodes.
• 31:52
  David Kochberg: Oh God.
• 31:54
  David Kochberg: Can we go back to the first question that I asked you that we deleted, because it was actually quite a depressing answer you gave me.
• 32:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: There you go.
• 32:02
  David Kochberg: Well,
• 32:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: So get to work!
• 32:04
  David Kochberg: I guess I walked right into that one.
• 32:06
  David Kochberg: It now comes time, for that point in every episode where the host, with grace, with con
• 32:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell them about where to buy my book first though.
• 32:18
  David Kochberg: Vanessa's book, Vanessa.
• 32:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're supposed to say is there anything
• 32:22
  David Kochberg: Hey Vanessa, thank you, no, that's good, good point, good, this is a good learning experience, good training, thank you for the constructive feedback.
• 32:29
  David Kochberg: Vanessa.
• 32:29
  David Kochberg: Is there anything else you'd like to tell our guest, our audience, you're the guest, our, is there anything else you would like to tell the audience about specifically the book that you were trying to peddle right now?
• 32:40
  David Kochberg: You want to sell, you want to move some copies, so those, those pink beacons of hope are just taking up space at some warehouse, the back of your car or something?
• 32:51
  David Kochberg: I don't know.
• 32:52
  David Kochberg: Yeah, where can they buy it?
• 32:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, thank you so much.
• 32:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: I am trying to peddle my book.
• 32:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: It is called Math Therapy, and it is jam packed with tools, strategies, templates.
• 33:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, for real though, um, if you want to buy my book, uh, it is not just a collection of stories from the podcast, quite the opposite.
• 33:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: It is literally every single step, the five steps of Math Therapy, guiding every teacher out there on how to heal math trauma in their classroom with like strategies, resources, activities, like everything.
• 33:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, cool.
• 33:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's my little promo pitch.
• 33:21
  David Kochberg: As the host and producer, I shall be putting a link to purchase that book.
• 33:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let me tell you where to get it
• 33:28
  David Kochberg: Into the show notes.
• 33:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Great.
• 33:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can literally, though, if it's easier for you guys, the easiest thing you can do is just go to maththerapy.com.
• 33:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: New website, new book baby, go to maththerapy.com, you can see how to purchase the book there.
• 33:42
  David Kochberg: Yeah, go do it.
• 33:43
  David Kochberg: It's it's a, it's a great book.
• 33:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: You haven't read it.
• 33:45
  David Kochberg: Heard the stories.
• 33:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: You've never read it.
• 33:47
  David Kochberg: But apparently I'm in it.
• 33:48
  David Kochberg: I think I had to sign some waiver.
• 33:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: You did.
• 33:50
  David Kochberg: So, uh, yeah, go, go get the book.
• 33:53
  David Kochberg: Let me know what happens, how I was featured in there, cause I'm not reading this piece of garbage.
• 34:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: David!
• 34:03
  David Kochberg: Uh, is there anything else?
• 34:05
  David Kochberg: Uh,
• 34:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: No.
• 34:05
  David Kochberg: No, make sure, you know, follow us on all the social things.
• 34:09
  David Kochberg: There's the links in the show notes, the description in your podcast player or whatever, yada, yada.
• 34:14
  David Kochberg: Let us know what you think about the podcast, you know, go on the social media, do the tweeting and the Instagram commenting and such.
• 34:23
  David Kochberg: And, uh, and, is it now, now I can do the, okay.
• 34:27
  David Kochberg: And now finally it really comes time for the host to, with great circumstance and pomp and, uh, and confidence, actually, now I'm not doing a great job at all, it's time to say goodbye.
• 34:42
  David Kochberg: Vanessa, thank you so much for coming on my podcast.
• 34:45
  David Kochberg: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to live out my dreams.
• 34:49
  David Kochberg: And I am very happy to return the reins of the podcast back to you because you do a great job.
• 34:56
  David Kochberg: It is a true honor to produce you and edit these wonderful episodes.
• 35:01
  David Kochberg: And this has been a lot of fun.
• 35:02
  David Kochberg: So thank you for coming on the podcast.
• 35:05
  David Kochberg: Your own podcast.
• 35:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are supposed to say bye first, everyone knows that.
• 35:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're just messing with me.
• 35:15
  David Kochberg: I've taught you nothing.
• 35:17
  David Kochberg: No.
• 35:18
  David Kochberg: How does a conversation usually end?
• 35:20
  David Kochberg: Like you see a person in public you're talking to them.
• 35:22
  David Kochberg: One of you is like, Hey, this has been so great.
• 35:25
  David Kochberg: Great to see you.
• 35:27
  David Kochberg: Actually, no, that doesn't happen in public, but it happens on a podcast.
• 35:30
  David Kochberg: On a podcast.
• 35:31
  David Kochberg: If someone's like, it's like a natural, people.
• 35:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have to end this episode.
• 35:35
  David Kochberg: You know what, no, no, I you're, don't turn around on me.
• 35:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: David.
• 35:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's been 50 minutes.
• 35:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're going to cut out a lot of it though.
• 35:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, but there's a lot.
• 35:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: We'll cut that whole section.
• 35:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 35:46
  David Kochberg: Vanessa, thanks so much for coming on the pod past, pod past, the cod pat, you're right, it is hard.
• 35:51
  David Kochberg: Huh!
• 35:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm actually just leaving.
• 35:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I have to go to the bathroom.
• 35:55
  David Kochberg: Thanks.
• 35:56
  David Kochberg: Vanessa.
• 35:57
  David Kochberg: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 36:00
  David Kochberg: Goodbye.
• 36:04
  David Kochberg: She's, she's, now she's on the toilet.
• 36:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: David!
• 36:14
  David Kochberg: And the final question, I will be asking you on this interview.
• 36:20
  David Kochberg: What is one thing that you think the education system does really well?
• 36:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Such a, wow, wow, wow, wow.
• 36:30
  David Kochberg: Since you're always shitting on it.
• 36:34
  David Kochberg: Ah,