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Career Growth for Women: The Likeable Badass Method to Build Influence · Loud & Lifted

0:00
Welcome to Loud and Lifted. I'm your host, Betsy
0:03
Ham. Be assertive, but not aggressive. Speak
0:07
up, but don't be too loud. Show confidence, but
0:11
actually stay humble. You likely heard all this
0:15
advice. It seems impossible to walk the fine
0:18
line. And how do you be powerful and likable?
0:21
We want to know how to be badasses, not bitches.
0:25
I'm joined by Alison Fregale. She's an organizational
0:28
psychologist and a professor who studies the
0:31
science of status, aka how much we're respected
0:34
and regarded by other people and why that matters
0:37
so much for success and satisfaction. She breaks
0:41
it down in the simplest way I've heard. People
0:43
are constantly sizing us up on two things. Are
0:46
you a friend or foe? Do you care? And can you
0:50
deliver? Are you capable? That's the heart of
0:52
being a likable badass. So we're going to dig
0:56
into how women can build respect without trading
0:58
away who they are because we're not here to pick
1:01
liked or taken seriously. We're here for both.
1:05
So let's go. Welcome to Loud and Lifted, Allison.
1:09
Thank you so much for being here. My pleasure.
1:12
Thanks for having me. So I love nothing more
1:14
than when you're scrolling. title or platforming
1:19
just kind of jumps out at you and grabs your
1:22
attention. And you're like, oh, I need to learn
1:24
more about this. And that's why I came across
1:27
you and Likeable Badass. Love that so much. So
1:31
tell us a little bit about how did you come up
1:33
with this and what exactly Likeable Badass is
1:36
all about. Yeah. So the book and a lot of the
1:39
work I do is about the science of status and
1:42
what an important variable that is. Status is
1:44
how much we're respected and regarded by other
1:46
people. And so it's a judgment that other people
1:49
make about us, but it's a judgment that is really
1:51
important for our life satisfaction and our success.
1:56
And likable badass is my catchy term for how
2:00
people make decisions about how much status another
2:02
person has, how much respect they have for that
2:04
person. Everyone's always trying to evaluate
2:07
two things. We care about these things and other
2:09
people evaluate us on these two things. The first
2:12
thing we want to figure out about another person
2:13
is are they friend or are they foe? Are they
2:17
going to be helpful to us? Or are they going
2:20
to hurt us or compete with us, make our lives
2:22
difficult? And obviously, we prefer it to be
2:25
in relationships with people that we think, oh,
2:27
this is going to be a helpful person. They are
2:29
going to make my life better by being not just
2:32
likable, but honest, sincere, giving, helpful.
2:37
Those qualities make other people's lives better.
2:40
And we value that. And then the second thing
2:43
that we care about is beyond your intentions
2:47
is your capability. Can you deliver? So it's
2:50
nice that you want to help me, but are you actually
2:53
able to help me? Because do you have the skills?
2:55
Are you results oriented, competent, capable,
2:58
persistent, decisive? So on the cover of the
3:01
book, I use the terms likable and badass to talk
3:04
about those two fundamental dimensions. Do you
3:06
care and are you capable? And those two dimensions
3:09
are how respects judgments get made. So what
3:12
it means for us is Every time we can show up
3:17
in ways that send signals to our audience, hey,
3:21
this person really cares and they're really good
3:23
at what they do, then what will happen in the
3:25
other person's brain is they'll be like, oh my
3:28
gosh, I really respect that person. I value that
3:30
person. So that's really what I try to teach
3:33
people is I break down the science, but then
3:35
I help them think about how they show up so that
3:38
they send the signals to the world because all
3:42
of this is perception. They send those signals
3:44
that people can realize how caring and capable
3:47
you truly are. Oh, and I love that. It's such
3:50
a balance. And I think back to early in my career,
3:53
where I started having people report to me they
3:55
were older than me. And it's like, you wanted
3:56
them to like you, but then you wanted them to
3:59
respect you and understand that you were in a
4:02
position of power. So it is a very interesting
4:04
concept that I think, I'm assuming from the research,
4:07
women probably struggle more with this than men.
4:09
They do, they can, which is why I chose to write
4:12
the book for women, even though status is not
4:15
a gendered concept, because a variety of things
4:19
influence our status. A lot of things that we
4:21
control about how we show up influence our status,
4:24
but also some things that we don't control. And
4:26
gender is one of those things. So that's where
4:29
bias comes in. So all other things being equal,
4:32
people will instantly ascribe more respect and
4:35
status to a man than to a woman. So, again, that
4:39
is bias, and that's something that we have to
4:41
overcome. It is very overcomeable through the
4:45
things that we can control, but that is why it
4:48
can feel like more of a struggle for women because
4:51
it is more work. It is more of a struggle. Sure.
4:54
And what's the difference between power and status?
4:58
How do you define that? So status is being respected
5:01
and valued by other people. Power is controlling
5:04
resources that have value. to you and other people.
5:07
So money is a resource. Being able to make decisions
5:10
on your own, being able to give people rewards
5:13
and punishments, hire them and fire them, give
5:15
them good performance reviews or bad ones, buy
5:18
their product or not. Like these are forms of
5:20
power. I even say, you know, as a parent of three
5:23
kids, one of my kids drives a car. And so if
5:26
I'm holding the car keys, I'm holding a resource
5:29
that at that moment has value, but only to that
5:31
kid, right? So that would do nothing for my two
5:33
that don't drive. But if I'm holding it, I have
5:36
a resource that he wants, and what will happen?
5:39
I will have more influence. He's much more likely
5:41
to do what I say. And so why power is so valuable
5:43
to us is it sets us up for influence. Status
5:46
is different. Status is, again, being respected,
5:49
but it also is a source of influence because
5:51
if we don't respect people, we'll never be influenced
5:54
by them. But if we do respect them, we're much
5:56
more likely to trust them and do what they say.
5:59
That's a great point. And I think people probably
6:01
get that confused and try to use it interchangeably.
6:03
You think like, oh, you're a vice president,
6:05
you're a director, you have power, you have status,
6:07
and you may not have both or either. Correct.
6:11
So it's absolutely the case that you can have
6:13
status on the basis of a job title or a credential.
6:16
That simply knowing, people knowing that you
6:19
hold this position, you hold this degree, their
6:21
brain might say, oh, okay, I respect that. I
6:24
respect that position. So that can happen, and
6:27
so you could have both. But obviously, as you
6:30
say, it's not a guarantee you're going to have
6:32
both. Just because you have power in a position
6:36
or a title does not necessarily mean that people
6:38
respect you. Everyone can think of somebody that
6:41
has a lot of power and that no one respects.
6:44
That's so fast. Right? Life is hard for those
6:47
people. And so we want to understand both of
6:50
these variables because we deserve, particularly
6:52
women, deserve to have both. It's not about having
6:55
to trade one for the other. It's about how do
6:57
you get yourself in a situation where you can
6:58
have as much power and as much status as you
7:00
want. So how do you do that? Well, I talk about
7:03
in the book about focusing on status first and
7:06
flipping the script. So many of us want to jump
7:08
to the power, like, promote me, pay me. I want
7:11
you to be promoted. I want you to be paid. You
7:13
deserve it. But the problem is, if you try to
7:16
go after those things with an audience that doesn't
7:19
value you, they're very likely to want to give
7:22
you those things. Starting with status, I talk
7:25
about is really foundational and important. And
7:27
the way we influence it is by thinking about
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how we show up in our environments, how we communicate,
7:34
how we get in front of people and in ways that
7:37
are going to send signals to them. Hey, I really
7:40
care and I'm really capable. And there's lots
7:41
of different signals that we can send, like,
7:44
you know, in terms of caring. I talk about this
7:47
in the book, like smiling is a signal. When someone
7:49
smiles at you, you think, oh, their intentions
7:51
are good, right? They like me. They're in a good
7:54
mood. They're going to be fun to interact with.
7:57
If someone's scowling or frowning, you might
7:59
think, they don't like me. They're not a person
8:02
I want to engage with. Complimenting somebody
8:05
is a signal that you care. There's so many different
8:09
signals. And then we have signals about how capable
8:12
we are. Maybe it is a credential that we have.
8:15
Maybe it is a form of expertise. Maybe it is
8:19
we are a fast talker. And when people ask questions,
8:22
we can respond to them really quickly without
8:24
hesitation. And people think, oh, you didn't
8:26
even have to think about that for a second. You
8:27
must really know what you're talking about. So
8:29
the brain is picking up on all different kinds
8:31
of things. And what I help people understand
8:33
is what does the brain pay attention to? And
8:36
then what are your authentic signals that you
8:38
really like to send so that You're sending the
8:42
signals that are going to get you rewarded and
8:44
you're not unintentionally doing things that
8:46
are sending the wrong message, which sometimes
8:48
we do, including myself. That's interesting.
8:51
We've spent so many past episodes where building
8:55
your personal brand comes up, right? What's your
8:57
brand? What's your image? How do people describe
9:00
you when you're not in the room? I never really
9:02
thought about how that influences or impacts
9:05
the status piece, but that's all about being
9:07
intentional of how you show up. That's right.
9:10
So brand is very related. I always say if I were
9:12
a marketing professor, I would talk about it
9:13
as brand, but I'm a psychologist. I talk about
9:15
it as status. The idea is that elements of, the
9:19
kinds of elements of brand that people generally
9:21
want are ones that are associated with status,
9:23
right? No one's saying like, I really want my
9:25
brands to be difficult and hostile. Like no one
9:28
goes, no one puts that on their vision board,
9:30
right? Your brand is people, the brands that
9:33
people desire are going to be high status brands.
9:35
Like I want people to say some version that I
9:39
care deeply about people other than myself, and
9:43
that I add value to the world. The characteristics
9:47
themselves might differ. Humorous is very much
9:51
part of my brand. Not everyone would pick that,
9:53
but with humor, right? Humor is a mark of intellect
9:58
because it's hard to make people laugh. It's
10:01
also a mark of caring, that you're bringing a
10:05
fun atmosphere and creating that. You can have
10:09
different brands that are authentic to you, but
10:13
a good brand is going to be one that's going
10:16
to hit in your own way on both of those dimensions,
10:19
that it's going to signal to people, this is
10:21
a person that really cares and this is a person
10:22
that can deliver results. Well, that's a good
10:24
point about being authentic, essentially, right?
10:27
So if being empathetic and caring doesn't come
10:31
naturally, is that something that you can work
10:33
on improving and be genuine about it? I would
10:36
say to people, if you don't actually care about
10:38
anybody other than yourself, life's gonna be
10:39
pretty hard. But most people I encounter do care
10:42
about people. Now what they might not be is good
10:44
at showing it. And that's where you just have
10:47
to experiment a bit with what's your signals
10:50
that you're going to send that are gonna show
10:52
over the world how truthfully caring you actually
10:55
are. And I think that's the real key is finding
10:59
your signal. So I talk a lot in the book that
11:03
I'm not a good smiler. I probably look okay right
11:06
now, but when I see pictures of myself on stage
11:08
speaking, as I often do, I have yet to find one
11:12
usable action shot in over 20 years of being
11:15
a speaker because I have the same growly look
11:18
on my face every single time. Okay, I'm not a
11:21
good smiler. You don't have to convince me that
11:23
I am. I already understand that I'm not. That's
11:26
okay. Smiling is a signal of warmth. Like scowling
11:31
is not. So my Natural nonverbal expression is
11:35
not doing me any favors. And that's okay. But
11:39
if I'm aware of it, I really don't want people
11:41
to think I might agree with them because I just
11:44
this is how my face is shaped. So I have to figure
11:48
out my work around. And so I think what am I
11:50
good at? I'm good at using my words to make people
11:52
feel good, to compliment them, to help them,
11:55
to celebrate them, those things. And so that's
11:58
what I do. And so I do think that I have cultivated
12:00
a brand. as someone is very warm, very approachable,
12:04
very friendly, very caring, but I do not do it
12:06
through my facial expressions. I have to do it
12:09
in other ways. And that's the idea of you can
12:11
go for the same outcome, but you can approach
12:14
it your way. So what I will say to people when
12:17
they're struggling with how to show empathy,
12:19
warmth, caring is like, what is your favorite
12:21
way to show people that you care about them?
12:24
And then let's figure out ways you can lean into
12:26
that more because that's going to feel good to
12:29
you because it's really authentic. and it's going
12:31
to be really effective. Oh, I love that. That's
12:34
so true. Some people are just more natural to
12:36
smiling, like laughing, whatever, very warm behavior.
12:40
And there's, I know my friends, co -workers who
12:43
aren't, but it wasn't because they're on a message,
12:45
just how they portray that. So I love finding
12:47
what makes sense for you, what's comfortable,
12:50
right? When you're fake smiling and you're fake
12:53
laughing, everybody sees through that. So trying
12:56
to really embrace what you're good at. So how
12:59
do you balance, especially I think as women,
13:01
because as I mentioned, I experienced this earlier
13:03
in my career, I've seen other women struggle
13:05
with this, where you want to be nice, you want
13:07
people to think you're nice, but you don't want
13:08
them to think you're a pushover or that you don't
13:11
know what you're doing and like, oh, yeah, she's
13:13
nice, but she's not competent. So how do we build
13:15
that other half of this? That is where I think
13:18
experimenting with forms of nice that also showcase
13:23
competence. Because the best thing is if you
13:26
can show up as both at all times, then you're
13:29
hitting all the bases, right? You're signaling
13:32
that you're all the things. So there are some
13:35
forms of being nice that showcase your confidence.
13:39
There are other forms of being nice that have
13:41
no impact and there are some that actually decrease
13:43
your competence. So you have to think about this.
13:45
So an example would be like, if I buy you a coffee,
13:49
that's a nice thing to do. Doesn't showcase me
13:52
as particularly competent, but it doesn't undermine
13:54
my competence either, right? It's just a neutrally
13:56
nice behavior. If I Self -deprecate if I say
14:01
that I'm bad at something and I cut myself down
14:04
now That is also warm in the sense that it's
14:07
humble. It's modest It's sometimes self -deprecating
14:10
can actually be funny Comedians often do it and
14:13
so all of those things can increase your warmth
14:15
But those come at an expense you're seen as less
14:18
capable because you've just told people you're
14:19
not good at stuff So that could be a dangerous
14:22
form of warm. It's maybe worse than buying a
14:24
coffee but then better than buying a coffee would
14:27
be something like making an introduction to somebody.
14:30
If I introduce you to a great podcast guest,
14:33
you're like, you know who I really like to have
14:34
on my podcast, Allison? So I think I can introduce
14:37
you. You'd be like, oh my gosh, that's so nice.
14:40
It's a warm behavior. It's really friendly. But
14:42
wait, it also, more than buying a coffee, it
14:44
allows me to show up as unique in the sense that
14:48
I have a network, a relationship web that you
14:50
don't have. So what I encourage people to think
14:53
about is how to be cognizant of their behaviors
14:58
and evaluate how they are, how much those behaviors
15:00
showcase that other dimension. So I try to help
15:04
people go move away from behaviors that are one
15:08
at the other's expense. So if I am kind of angry
15:13
and hostile, I might, and I'm like, I'm like
15:16
really like very strict and stern. I might be
15:18
able to like drive results and get people better
15:20
at the expense of being liked. And if I'm self
15:24
-deprecating and cutting myself down, everyone
15:25
likes me, but nobody thinks I can drive results.
15:28
So looking for ones that are going to hit on
15:29
both, or for example, if I'm buying someone's
15:33
coffee, I'd say, okay. That's a nice thing to
15:36
do. So in their brain, I've probably checked
15:38
the box, like being nice, but I haven't checked
15:40
the box yet of being capable. What could I say
15:43
or do or talk about that they would also recognize
15:45
me as being both of those things? So once you
15:48
start to recognize that there are two dimensions,
15:50
you can start to evaluate how you're showing
15:52
up and say, okay, if I'm showing up well on one
15:56
dimension, but I haven't really done anything
15:58
on the other one, what can I do to lean into
16:00
it? or if I have something like in my case, you're
16:03
a bad smiler, you actually look unfriendly, you
16:07
look angry, you have to compensate a little bit.
16:09
What else could you do? So that's how you can
16:11
start to think about it because you are a multi
16:14
-channel form of communication. You have lots
16:17
of different signals you send and you just want
16:18
to be aware of what are they so that what I'm
16:21
sending to a person's brain is representing the
16:24
full spectrum of all the value that I have. No,
16:27
that makes sense. And when you're at the other
16:29
end of the spectrum, like I'm saying, if you're
16:31
too nice and you're too kind, you're not taken
16:33
serious. And there's the other end, I think,
16:36
when women are difficult or too intimidating
16:39
or intense. So it's like, I don't know, is there
16:42
a way to kind of pull that back or is it still
16:44
the same approach to just, hey, you're trying
16:46
to get to the middle, right? You don't want to
16:47
be at either end of the spectrum. Okay. So this
16:49
is one thing I want to say. People often think
16:52
about these things as a single dimension. there's
16:55
being assertive on one end and being nice on
16:57
the other. But in the book I show, there are
17:00
actually two dimensions, like an x -axis and
17:01
a y -axis. So that's a really important mental
17:04
shift because if you think they're one dimension,
17:06
you always think you're trading one off against
17:08
the other. But sometimes you might choose to
17:12
be doing that, but you don't necessarily have
17:14
to. So that's the first thing is a lot of times
17:16
people are given feedback that you're too, let's
17:19
say too nice. And I would say that I understand
17:22
where that feedback comes from. But let's break
17:24
it down. Was that feedback meant to be intended
17:26
to be literal? Meaning, what I actually would
17:29
like from you is some more meanness, please.
17:31
Could you be a little bit more unkind and cruel?
17:34
No one's actually saying that. Even though their
17:36
words are too nice, they're not saying, like,
17:41
someone once said, like, should I stop saying
17:43
please and thank you? I've been told I'm too
17:45
nice. And the manager was like, that's a terrible
17:47
idea. That's not what people want you to do.
17:50
People don't want you to, like, slap something
17:51
on their desk and be like, do it. But what they
17:54
are trying to tell you something and what they're
17:56
trying to tell you normally is you're not showing
17:58
up strong enough on the other dimension. So when
18:01
people say you're too nice, what they're saying
18:02
is I'm not seeing enough capability and results
18:04
orientation. And so I would say don't pull back
18:08
on being nice, but think about I need to show
18:11
you that I'm the other thing as well. And I can
18:13
lean into. how assertive, competent, capable
18:16
results oriented I have. Similar thing, if someone
18:18
says, you're too assertive, you're too aggressive,
18:21
you're too opinionated, you're too that, they're
18:22
saying, I'm getting lots of assertiveness from
18:25
you here. Like you're really excelling, but I'm
18:27
not getting anything on the piece that you care.
18:30
And so I would tell people, it's not about being
18:32
less opinionated or less confident. It's what
18:36
they're saying is they're not seeing anything
18:38
on the other dimension. How do we show them that
18:40
you really care? So I think the answer is when
18:43
you get the too much feedback, the instinct is
18:46
pull back. What I want to say is, no, no, no,
18:49
amplify the other dimension. What they're telling
18:52
you is you've got that first dimension, down
18:55
cold. Check it off. You've got it. Amplify. And
18:58
I call it adding, not subtracting. That is such
19:01
great advice. And as you're saying that, not
19:02
that I'm perfect, but I can think of people in
19:05
my life that I worked with, and especially one
19:08
that Everybody would say it was too nice. Oh,
19:10
she's, she's so nice. She's too nice. But that
19:13
caused her to not be assertive, not to give her
19:16
opinion, not provide feedback, you know, and
19:19
sort of that couching every piece of advice she'd
19:22
give us like, Oh, I'm not sure. Or like, she
19:24
just was so afraid to hurt other people's feelings,
19:27
obviously lacked confidence, but you're right.
19:29
It wasn't about her being too nice. It was just
19:32
her getting more comfortable with. giving feedback,
19:35
saying no, having boundaries, whatever it is.
19:39
That's a really interesting way to look at it,
19:41
which I never did. So thank you for that. Of
19:44
course. So is there any myth that you love to
19:47
bust about being too nice or being respected
19:51
or anything along that that you've learned through
19:53
writing this and all the research? Well, this
19:55
is, I think, the main one we just covered, which
19:57
is that it's an either or. Right? And so many
20:00
people try to approach it that way. And I say,
20:02
no, no, no. You can be both. Lots of people are
20:05
both. You have people that you respect like this.
20:08
And to really lean into adding things into how
20:12
you show up rather than subtract. Because subtracting
20:15
is one, not only less effective, it also feels
20:17
way less authentic. When you are told that you're
20:20
too much of anything and then you have to feel
20:21
like you have to hide it, that's called emotional
20:23
labor. It takes work. It leads to burnout. It
20:26
leads to resentment. and it makes you feel like
20:30
you are not getting to be your true self. When
20:32
you have to add something in, it feels a lot
20:35
more authentic. So I really do think that this
20:37
is the key myth that I spend a lot of time debunking
20:40
because it's such a natural tendency to take
20:44
people at their word. You said I was to something,
20:47
so I will be less of that thing. It sounds logical.
20:50
It's just when you play it out, you realize,
20:52
wait, wait, wait, wait, that's not exactly what
20:53
they were trying to tell me. They just didn't
20:55
have the words for it. I don't know if that makes
20:56
sense. So when you think about certain difficult
20:59
situations like negotiations, self -promotion,
21:03
even difficult conversations, is there any language
21:06
or any approaches that are helpful when we're
21:08
trying to be that like, well, badass, but be
21:10
in these challenging situations, whether, like
21:12
I said, negotiation, self -promotion, difficult
21:14
conversations, any advice on how to handle those?
21:17
Yeah. So I do talk a lot about self -promotion
21:20
in the book and in general because We are the
21:23
most informed, motivated channel of communication
21:26
about ourselves that exists. No one knows us
21:29
better than us. No one cares about us more than
21:30
us. So if we are not telling our story, how would
21:33
people even know it? I mean, with so many aspects
21:36
of who I am, you would have no way of knowing
21:38
unless I gave them to you. So we have to tell
21:40
our story. That is self -promotion. But the way
21:44
to self -promote well is to do it where it hits
21:47
on both of these dimensions. Self -promotion
21:49
is obviously a win on the like capability. If
21:52
I tell you I'm great, then you're more likely
21:54
to think I'm great. But it's a threat on the
21:57
warmth, right? Are you going to like me? Maybe
21:59
I'm not modest or humble. And so that's where
22:02
the tension of self -promoting comes in, is I
22:05
want to be both, and I can't figure out how to
22:07
self -promote and be warm. So I talk about a
22:10
variety of research -based strategies, and you
22:12
don't have to do all of them, but find something
22:14
that makes you feel comfortable telling your
22:17
own story. One of them is what's called dual
22:19
promotion. I often refer to it as brag and thank,
22:22
which is you say something good about yourself
22:24
and then you offer thanks for someone else that
22:26
played a role. Okay? I promote me and I promote
22:29
you. Now, I am not self -deprecating. I am not
22:32
saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no, I didn't do anything.
22:35
It was all Betsy. That's self -deprecation. Dual
22:38
promotion is I achieved this great outcome and
22:43
special thanks go to following people who played
22:46
a role. So let's say your podcast gets an award.
22:48
and you would say, I was really honored to get
22:50
this award. And I want to thank these, like the
22:54
producers are the editors who help me behind
22:56
the scenes. I want to thank a lot of guests who
22:58
have come onto my show and you can name a few
23:01
of them or whatever. When you do that, you're
23:03
taking the credit, but then you're also giving
23:06
credit to somebody else. And what the research
23:08
shows is that when you take the credit, I did
23:11
a good thing. You are seen as more capable. And
23:15
when you give some credit to somebody else, you're
23:16
also seen as more warm. So that's a good way
23:19
to check a box and that can be used in a lot
23:22
of different things. You could use it on social
23:23
media. You could use it in a weekly update email
23:27
that you might send to your boss or other people
23:28
at work. Hey, here's what's happened on our team
23:31
this week. I'm just filling you in. Here's the
23:34
wins and special thanks go to people AVMC. You
23:37
could use it in a meeting at the beginning where
23:39
you celebrate something that's happened and thank
23:41
people for the role that they played. So that's
23:44
one example of how you can use science. and bring
23:47
it into your everyday behaviors and say, hey,
23:50
every time there's something I want to shout
23:52
from the rooftops that I did well, let me shout
23:55
it. And also give a shout out to someone else.
23:57
And when I do that, I'll be hitting on both of
24:00
those important dimensions. With negotiation,
24:03
for example, I have a whole chapter in the book
24:06
on negotiations that are other techniques you
24:08
can use. So one specific one is giving people
24:12
multiple options. So I'm a parent. I have three
24:15
kids. parenting, at least in today's day and
24:18
age, is very much one of giving people control,
24:20
giving kids controlled choices. So I was born
24:23
in the 70s. My dad was like, here's how you're
24:25
going to do it. There will be no questions that,
24:27
you know, that is what it is. But of course,
24:30
I'm like, no, no, no, that's too strict. I want
24:32
my kids to see how much I care about them and
24:35
build these relationships. But I can't have the
24:37
inmates run this prison, right? There has to
24:39
be some control. So I'm going to give my kids
24:41
a curated set of choices, like, OK, Which of
24:45
the three very healthy dinner options would you
24:48
like for dinners? You can pick, right? But you
24:51
don't get to pick like pizza or burgers or ice
24:53
cream, like you can pick like the chicken or
24:55
the fish or whatever. So when I do that, what
24:58
am I trying to do? I am trying to show them that
25:02
I care because when you give people choices,
25:05
what the brain thinks is, oh, you must care about
25:07
me because you're giving me some say. But at
25:10
the same time, I'm also being able to assert
25:13
my own interests in this by saying the choices
25:16
are confined to things that are good for me.
25:20
So that's an example that we see evidence in
25:22
the negotiation research is when we negotiate
25:24
with people and getting your kid to eat dinner
25:25
is just as much negotiation as like buying and
25:28
selling products. When we negotiate with people,
25:31
they're going to like us more. They're going
25:32
to feel like we're more warm and caring when
25:34
we give them choices. but we can also be assertive
25:37
and drive our own outcomes. So rather than make
25:41
one offer, the idea of making three simultaneous
25:44
offers, like you can have these three different
25:46
dinners, is a very specific negotiation technique
25:48
that can be used by anyone, particularly women,
25:52
to say, hey, I'm going to show you how much I
25:54
care by giving you these options, but I'm also
25:56
not going to sacrifice myself in the process
25:58
because the options are all good for me. So those
26:00
are techniques that I help people recognize where
26:03
they can bring I care and I'm capable together
26:06
rather than have to play one off against the
26:08
other. I like that. Because it has a little bit
26:10
of control, right? Still involved is what I think
26:13
the basis of it is. But people feel like they
26:16
have an opinion, their values. So that makes
26:19
complete sense. What about with a difficult conversation?
26:21
I think sometimes that's where people are going
26:23
way too hard or too soft. So how do we handle
26:26
those difficult conversations? The first thing
26:28
is, yes, in that moment of the difficult conversation,
26:32
If you can take a pause and think, I need to
26:34
convey to this person two things. I need to convey
26:38
that I really care, and I need to convey that
26:41
I know what I'm talking about. Because if they
26:44
believe those two things, they're much more likely,
26:46
even though it's difficult, to listen to me.
26:48
If they think I only care about myself, they're
26:50
not going to listen. They're going to shut down.
26:52
And if they think that whatever I'm telling them
26:54
is wrong, they're also going to shut down. So
26:57
how do I convey that I'm right? and that I care.
27:00
And I think about this a lot with my kids is
27:01
another example. Like, right, if they're not
27:04
going to listen to you, if they don't think those
27:06
two things are true, they have to believe you
27:07
have their best interests at heart. And they
27:09
have to believe that you actually know something
27:11
that you're right. So I would think about how
27:14
do I convey those two things in this conversation?
27:17
So that's the first. The second thing is relationships,
27:22
like if you're going to have a difficult conversation,
27:24
it's probably not somebody you're only going
27:25
to talk to this one time. that relationship had
27:28
a past before we got to this point, and that
27:30
relationship is simply going to have a future
27:32
after this conversation. And it's important that
27:35
you use all of the past, the present, the future
27:37
to set yourself up for success. So the present
27:41
I just talked about, which is what can I say
27:43
in this moment that conveys to you that I care
27:45
and I know what I'm talking about. But I also
27:47
help people think about the past. I always tell
27:50
people, like, you don't exactly know what difficult
27:52
conversation you're going to have and with whom.
27:55
But you know they're going to come up, you're
27:57
going to have a conflict, you're going to need
27:58
to drive results. So what I tell people is, from
28:01
the second you come into someone's life, you
28:04
should be thinking about all the easy ways you
28:05
can build your respect with them. Because if
28:09
the difficult conversation does arise, wouldn't
28:11
you like it to be from a place where that person
28:14
already says, I really respect you? It's going
28:17
to make the whole thing a lot easier. So we should
28:19
have been using our past with everybody to set
28:22
ourselves up for success in this moment. And
28:25
then we also have a future. Sometimes you might
28:27
say, Hey, I messed up. I didn't, I went in and
28:30
I was way too harsh or I was way too self, whatever
28:33
it is. We're not perfect. And then I would say,
28:35
okay, let's say you had to give somebody some
28:37
really critical feedback and it was going to
28:39
hurt. And you're going to say you didn't do a
28:41
good job. And they're going to, in that moment,
28:44
feel like you don't really care about them. And
28:45
they're going to be disappointed. Well, what's
28:48
the future? What can you do tomorrow? to help
28:52
authentically show them that you do care. Could
28:55
you be genuinely complimentary about something
28:58
they're doing? Could you create an opportunity
28:59
for them? Could you compliment them to somebody
29:03
else, something like this? So that's how I think
29:05
about these relationships is they're more than
29:08
just the moment in time. Yes, you can do a better
29:10
or worse job in that moment, but don't over -focus
29:13
on the moment and forget about all these other...
29:16
signals that you send in that relationship over
29:18
its lifetime. And so, yes, if you leaned in,
29:21
even if it was just like you were really hangry,
29:23
so you just were nasty and you weren't very warm
29:26
in that whole thing. Well, what's tomorrow bring?
29:29
Okay, I need to really lean into my warmth right
29:31
now and show them how much I care because that's
29:33
the part where I've taken a little bit of a hit
29:36
that's in doubt. No, that makes so much sense.
29:38
And you're so right. We get really focused on
29:40
that one moment in time. And there's what happens
29:42
after how... rebound, recover essentially from
29:45
it's going to happen. You're going to have those
29:47
tough conversations with team members, your kids,
29:49
your spouse, you know, whoever it is, but how
29:52
you kind of continue to move on is really the
29:55
next important part. So you mentioned you have
29:58
kids. I have two teen daughters. So a lot of
30:00
times I'm having these conversations. I'm thinking
30:02
how I can help influence impact. support them,
30:07
you know, as they grow. So sometimes they roll
30:09
their eyes at the things I talk about or the
30:12
questions I'll ask them about leadership. But,
30:14
you know, around this topic with your kids, what
30:16
are you trying to instill in them today that
30:20
they, you know, as they grow up will be able
30:22
to lean into? I mean, I think that the only things
30:25
I try to do as an outgrowth of my job as a psychologist
30:29
is to help them think about their audience. And
30:34
a lot of times we give kids messages early in
30:37
life that they should become less concerned about
30:41
their audience. We don't want them to experience
30:43
peer pressure. We don't want them to hurt when
30:46
someone says something unkind. And so we kind
30:48
of tell them in a helpful way or a good, a well
30:52
-intentioned way, hey, don't pay attention to
30:55
that. Like focus on yourself. But in reality,
30:58
that's not the full entirety of the message,
31:01
right? Because a lot of our success depends on
31:03
being able to influence your audience. Like telling
31:05
my kids, hey, you know what? You probably shouldn't
31:08
wait until you have a bad grade on a test to
31:11
ever talk to that teacher. because why wouldn't
31:14
you be building a relationship with that teacher
31:16
all along the way? They're like, but I don't
31:17
need any help. I'm like, that's not the point.
31:19
The point is that's another human being. You
31:21
want that human being to know how much you care
31:24
and to see how capable you are. So that if something
31:26
ever goes wrong, you already have that past.
31:29
Why wouldn't you invest in that? So those kinds
31:31
of ideas of helping them think about paying attention
31:35
to their audience without being, without chasing
31:38
the validation. of that audience. And I think
31:41
that's something that we can start to have a
31:42
more nuanced conversation with our kids about.
31:45
And with anybody that we mentor, whether they're
31:47
biologically related to us or not, of this idea
31:50
of, wait a second, like, think about how that
31:52
other person sees the world. And how do you want
31:54
them to see you? And then how can you show up
31:57
in a way that gets them to see you that way?
31:59
Like, let's start working backward from the point
32:01
of view of our audience. And I think with kids
32:03
in particular, often give them the opposite message.
32:07
But not because we don't understand it's important,
32:10
but we're focused on a bunch of other things
32:12
like the pressure, like the bullying, like the
32:14
unkindness that they get. And then we tell them,
32:17
like, ignore the world. We need to ignore some
32:21
things, but you also need to invest in the right
32:24
kinds of relationships in the right way. Yeah.
32:27
And I don't think you're ever too young to start
32:28
talking about relationships and communication.
32:31
I mean, I think it's something that... a lot
32:32
of adults struggle with, right? So it's if you
32:34
can have those conversations and give them the
32:36
tools and, hey, this is how this happens. And
32:38
yeah, guess what? Not everyone's going to like
32:40
you. That's okay. Like, but this is how you move
32:42
on and you focus on your strengths and surround
32:45
yourself with good people. And that's, you know,
32:47
all we can control essentially. But that's great.
32:50
That's great advice. Well, this is awesome. So
32:52
if people want to find likeable matters, more
32:55
information about you, where can they connect
32:56
with you? The best place for people always to
32:59
start for me is my website, which is my name.
33:02
So that makes it pretty easy to find. And on
33:03
my website, I have a bunch of stuff. There is
33:05
information about me, like all kinds of fun facts,
33:08
bio stuff. There's information about the book.
33:11
There's all the media I've ever done. So podcasts,
33:14
articles, et cetera. You could spend a lot of
33:16
time there. And then there are easy ways to find
33:19
me in these other places where I show up. So
33:22
I do show up on social media, LinkedIn and Instagram
33:25
in particular. And I also show up, I have a newsletter
33:29
called The Upper Hand, which is behavioral science
33:31
to help women excel. And all of those can be
33:35
found as a one -stop shop through the website.
33:37
Awesome. And we'll link that in the show notes
33:39
for sure. I'm sure there's a lot of great information
33:42
and can't wait to see what you do next. Do you
33:44
have plans for after likeable badass or you're
33:46
all in right now on likeable badass? I do a lot
33:50
of speaking and educating for women. And it's
33:53
not always just about the things that were in
33:54
the book, but... That still does keep me very
33:57
busy. 2025 was a year of just like existing with
34:01
this book, new book in the world and bringing
34:03
it to people. I have done that. And then in 2026,
34:08
I'm going to think about like where would I like
34:09
to go next, which might involve another book.
34:11
Maybe it won't. There's no secret there, but
34:13
it's just a, it's a 2026 TBD. Awesome. Well,
34:17
that's exciting. Well, best of luck and I love
34:19
the book and congratulations to you for all your
34:21
success and thank you for helping women be likeable
34:24
badass. That's awesome. Oh my gosh, great to
34:27
talk with you. If you've ever been told you're
34:28
too much of something, here's the reframe I'm
34:31
taking with me. I also made it clear that the
34:33
answer usually isn't to shrink, it's to add.
34:36
When you feel like you have to hide parts of
34:38
yourself, that's emotional labor and it leads
34:40
to burnout and resentment. Adding the right signal
34:43
is not only more effective, it feels more authentic.
34:47
Thanks for listening to Latin Lifted. If this
34:49
episode hit, share it with a woman who needs
34:50
the reminder that she doesn't have to choose
34:52
between being respected and liked. And don't
34:56
forget to pick up Allison's book, Likeable Badass.
34:59
Until next time, stay loud and stay lifted.