Latest / The Bold Lounge / Vitale Buford Hardin: Moving Beyond Perfection- Boldly Redefining Success

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Vitale Buford Hardin: Moving Beyond Perfection- Boldly Redefining Success · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Leigh Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today I have Vitaly Buford-Harden, leading expert in perfectionism and how it permeates corporate culture and individual performance.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: She is the president and CEO of Vitaly and Company.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Having led two university studies focused on perfectionism in the workplace, Vitaly is a true pioneer of thought leadership in this space.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: This study revealed that 85% of workplaces have cultures of perfectionism, as well as 86% of leaders in these workplaces seeing their work affected by perfectionism, further solidifying perfectionism as a crucial topic to be addressed in every work environment.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Throughout Vitaly's life, she has overcome struggles with perfectionism and addiction, which propelled her to becoming a published author, nationally recognized speaker and an IPEC certified executive coach.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: She brings 15 years of corporate experience to her custom trainings, strategic advisory, culture change initiatives and performance coaching.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me Leigh.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: So super excited to have you and to learn more about your bold journey, and we'll jump in right away with what is your definition of bold.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I feel like my initial you know definition when I think about bold is being courageous and getting out of your comfort zone and following your dreams.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: But you know, if I dig deeper, I think some of the boldest things I have done is really learning who I am and following my intuition.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: So I think even just really being authentically yourself and following your intuition and knowing who you are is one of our boldest journeys.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's easier said than done.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: At least I think it is yes, definitely.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's where the hard work begins, honestly, you know and we could talk a little bit more about that, but I love that definition.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: It's it's learning who you are going inward more so than going outward and being able to like define it, claim it and evolve it Right.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so what's a moment in your life where you felt you were stepping into that definition that really like comes to mind when you say that out?
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: loud.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: You know, I would say that I feel like I've stepped in that definition the past few years and I don't know if there's a specific moment, but I would say it's really when I realized and I shared this definition of perfectionism, right, which is doing things for love instead of from love.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: And so for me it's been in the past few years just understanding that I spent most of my life doing things for love and now I spend the majority of doing things like from love.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: So there's not like a specific moment, it's just been like the past two years kind of this expedited journey of really doing things internally driven versus externally driven.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, so, you've done a lot of work, you know, in figuring out how to overcome things, and how to overcome addiction, how to overcome kind of your past habits or things that you did that you realized weren't healthy, weren't making you truly happy, weren't really aligned with who you are.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but something's happened in the last two years that kind of catapulted you to where you are now, which is just it feels like wow, like you're everywhere, like you're speaking, you're, you're talking, you're on podcasts, you're doing you know, like yeah, which is great, but like is there something that happened for you that gave it some high octane over the last two years, or is it just the evolution that's happened?
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: naturally, Maybe naturally, but also like as we're talking.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe it's having a baby recently, so I have a 13 month old and I would say just even like becoming a mother has made me, honestly, more present for my life and I think maybe some of the things have been expedited because of that, just because I've been more present and like where my feet are.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and knowing kind of what you want and what you stand for or accept or what you won't move a boundary for.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Is that fair to say yeah, where are my boundaries, what are my values and what will I not and what will I do?
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: So, on top of everything else you're doing, you're incredible mom to two children, so, and one of them being 13 months old, so like needing you a lot.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: So when someone like here's this who's listening was like, do you have a magic, you know something magical that we can like?
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: How do you make it all work?
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Or what?
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: What do we not see that doesn't work?
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Because there's plenty.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I know, just even building my business over the last four years, there's plenty of stuff in the background that you don't see that doesn't work.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: But I think you know, is there something that you do, or a habit or something you've created that helps you get through the life of busyness and things to do and, you know, still staying aligned?
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for me it's, you know, not expecting me to be all things to everyone every single day, meaning that you know, I don't put the pressure on myself to be super mom seven days a week, but I do prioritize it right?
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: So I have a regular date night with my 13 year old, I have a regular date night with my husband, and so, yes, things are scheduled.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Right now, I mean, it still feels organic to some degree, but you know, I'm not expecting myself to do that.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: And then I would say also, what I'm working on is just like really creating more micro moments of being present, instead of expecting myself to be present all the time, and so, like with my baby, like I get them up every morning and I'm really present with him in the morning and then I do my gratitude journaling and it's my morning routine.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: So you know I'm not with my baby during the day all the time, but I do have that micro moment in the morning, right, yeah?
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: So breaking it down and not putting pressure on yourself.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: It sounds like it, which I think we could easily do, right, yeah, all right, let's jump into perfection, because this was an interesting thing when I first came out of my role, when I quit my job without having a job and I got a coach for that part of my life and I think we get different coaches at different points in our lives that we need and you know, she we talked about one of the sessions was perfectionism and I was like I don't have that, I just don't.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like when I said I didn't have shadows, she kind of we're going to go through it anyway, cause I was like.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: I always thought that like was a bad word, cause that meant like I was striving to be something that I couldn't, when I I mean logically, I know perfectionism or being perfect is just not what life is about.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Like I even said, I was like life is very imperfect for me, right, life, you know.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: So I think it was interesting when we kind of went through you know what are some of the variables to it, or what are some of the you know things that you could be doing which is, you know, for me it was like I moved the goal line a lot, so like I'll reach what I had defined as success and I'll say, well, I could have done better or I could do more, or I could have made X or whatever it is.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: And now I think that's kind of a little bit of perfectionism sneaking in.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Right, I expect others at times to do, at the levels that I was doing, some of the things, definitely in the corporate world.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I think I have less of that now, but it was like this expectation of like really inhuman type of levels of working which is what I was doing.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, at one point I was working 17 hours a day, sleeping two hours, and you know it was just ridiculous.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know those are a few, just a few examples, and I bet I have three or four more.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: But how do you think the seed of perfectionism gets planted?
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Where does it come from?
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Like, is there any way for us to notice it when it starts to creep in?
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: So I think for most of us it's a coping mechanism that we develop in our childhood or our young adulthood, right.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: So in my instance, I grew up in a home with two workaholic parents and an alcoholic mother, and so for me to get love and attention from them required good grades, extracurriculars, looking and dressing a certain way.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: You know like.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: I got praised for those things.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: So it wasn't their intention, but I was praised for those things and so that was the for love versus from love, part right, right.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: And so I started looking for all these external markers to define my worth, because that's how I was getting attention.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: And so some people it might be that they were bullied in middle school or even high school, right, and they were like Okay, well, if I'm perfect, then I'll avoid that pain.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Or you think about like athletes, right, who are like if I have the perfect meal plan and the perfect training plan and I do all these things perfectly, then I'll go to the Olympics or be a D1 athlete or you know.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: So it can look.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: It looks differently for all of us, but I believe the seeds are planted from either our family unit or our school experience or just society.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: I believe those seeds are planted when we're young, and so then we develop those deep coping mechanisms at a young age, and so they're hard to unlearn up those deep coping mechanisms at a young age and so they're hard to unlearn.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is it something we do to fit in?
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Right, because it's the definition or how I define.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Perfectionism is doing things for love instead of from love.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, we're trying to fit in.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: So we do these things for love because we don't fit in with ourselves yet, and so we're trying to.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: You know, we're outsourcing our self-worth and approval to other people.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's somewhat depressing, but it is, but also very, very changeable.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very changeable.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: But I think the fact that it happens when we're smaller, right, and when I think like we have the most, hopefully, openness about what's possible and you know I could be anything I want to be, and you know, somehow, you know I could be anything I want to be and you know, somehow, you know society or the people who are around, all the things that we see or look at like social media, start to creep in and we think we're not good enough.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: At some point, right, we have to be different to be accepted, right, and I mean I've definitely felt that even in my fifties, you know, and I think what happens as you get older is you say I probably have to fit in right now if I want them to accept me, but I'm not going to, you know, yeah, yeah, well, I care, but I don't.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: You know, like I'm going to be me and I'm sorry I'm not your people, but that's okay, not everyone's for everyone and so, but I certainly wasn't doing that, you know, in middle or high school and I think it's interesting, you know, just to kind of hear that and you kind of think you know the listeners right now.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: This is like thinking of a moment of like did you move, you know, did you move the goalpost or do you strive for?
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: You know some of the things that I think can be identified as perfectionism, and what would those be like?
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: What are things like?
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, maybe I am a little bit of a perfectionist, yeah.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: What are symptoms we could see bubbling up?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: So the way that I teach perfectionism is I've created two types of perfectionism and it's a really easy way to start, kind of self-identifying, and also, the more you can self-identify, the more you can turn the volume down on your perfectionism, but you have to know it first.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: I mean that was helpful, because I was like I don't have that, yeah yeah, you gotta have some awareness.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's two types of perfectionism, lee.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: There's slow perfectionism and there's fast perfectionism.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: So slow perfectionism is the kind of perfectionism that keeps you stuck.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: So you're procrastinating, you experience imposter syndrome, right, you're not sharing your brilliant ideas because you think, oh, someone's already thought of that, or that's a dumb idea, or right.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: So you're you're dimming your light because you're afraid of other people's judgment.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: You don't delegate in the workplace, you avoid crucial conversations, you have a fear of making mistakes, fear of failure.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: So that's slow perfectionism.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: It keeps you stuck.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Then, on the other end, is fast perfectionism, and this is the unrealistic expectations always saying yes, people pleasing, obsessive thinking, chronic multitasking, workaholism, and so some people.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: That's probably the end I was on Right.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: So I'm both I'm slow and I'm fast.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Right, I can find myself I don't really procrastinate as much as I used to.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: That one doesn't really impact me as much, but I procrastinate and I'm fast.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Right, I can find myself I don't really procrastinate as much as I used to.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: That one doesn't really impact me as much.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: But you know, I procrastinate and I have unrealistic expectations.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: So I'm a hybrid.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: I'm both slow and fast.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: It just depends on the area of my life and the theme.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Cause I've taught you know these perfectionism workshops and talks like hundreds and hundreds of times, and the theme is that we are typically slow perfectionists when it comes to our own goals, fast perfectionists when it comes to everyone else's.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, and then I think it applies especially for those that are in corporate America.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: So if it comes to my own goals and priorities, I'm going to put myself on the back burner.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: I'm going to procrastinate on it, I'm going to put it off, I'm going to, you know, dim my light.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: But if it comes to like, oh, my boss asked me to do this, or a colleague asked me to do this, I'll jump through hoops for you.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, like I'll be a workaholic, I'll work on realistic hours, you know I'll just get it done, I'll show you whatever at whatever cost, yeah, so it's an interesting kind of game we play.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: So in all your research that you've done and you've done two university setting research studies do a lot of people like they have it.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: It's 92% of people, okay, so that's high.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: So basically, all of us and I've got the two university research studies, and then I also have a quiz on my website and the quiz on my website says like 95 or 96%.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: So we're in the 90 90th percentile here.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Do you think most of us walk around not thinking we have it like me?
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Correct, I think that most of us?
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think we're aware, because when you have an awareness of it, like especially the specific symptoms, like oh, my procrastination is a symptom of my perfectionism, oh, my my you know fear of making a mistake, or my obsessive thinking or my self-criticism.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: I think we just do it at second nature and we don't connect the dots to perfectionism, which I feel like has been one of my kind of purposes on this earth is to educate people on it so they can connect the dots and they can turn the volume down.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: So, as we're sitting here like I'm thinking of all the definitions of bold and when someone is bold, what they are not thinking about, and you know, I think to be bold you have to be okay to make a mistake.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: You have to feel like I might succeed, I might fail, like you're not guaranteed success and you're not guaranteed acceptance.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: So when you're bold and most of us in our community are bold, and we might be suffering from perfectionism or have some some traits of it that we're still trying to manage or to deal with, or just acknowledge, hey, you're there, but I'm not gonna.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: I gotta talk to you today, you know, because I got stuff to do.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: So I think you know it's interesting just to juxtapose those two next to each other, because if you're a perfectionistist and you're trying to be bold, it's probably extremely uncomfortable.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, but I would say it shows up for us this way.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: So, lee, I would say that, cause I'm bold and I I'm still a recovering perfectionist and I teach it because I need it the most.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: So I would say this is how it shows up with us.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Is that?
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Is that never enough syndrome?
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, definitely I suffer from that.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: I've talked about that.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: The goalpost always like.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: For me it's like oh, I want a new client, I want, I've been wanting for two or three years, what's next?
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: We don't own the good stuff.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Right, like I'm bold.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: You know like I started my business as a single mother with no savings.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I'm bold, I do scary things and you know like I have a high tolerance for risk and nothing's ever enough for me.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, those are things that I've been working on in my personal life is just to find contentment, find presence, find gratitude, so that I'm not constantly chasing.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really important because I think a lot of people can relate to that.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: I certainly can, you know from.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: You know, the one thing that I've struggled with is, you know I'm not enough, but why not?
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: You know like I'm getting better in that space.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: But I'm open about like that has been a challenge for me and I do.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I do move the goalpost.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: So something I'm trying to do is just be kinder to myself and you know, the O of the bold framework is about owning, which is owning success as much as things that don't go wrong, which is still like a thing for me.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: You know I will own something that goes wrong or not, right or not, to the 100%, 110%, like in a second Owning.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Like you said, I got that contract, I got that speaking event, I wrote a book, like okay, cool, what's next?
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: You know, like wait a minute, it's okay to slow down and, like you said, you keep saying be present.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: And I think for me it's like revisiting that on a regular basis and making intentional choice to be present, right, when you're practicing that presence which it sounds like you're you're getting better and better at as you practice it.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: But how did you start?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: You know cause?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: You said micro moments versus this.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to meditate for 30 minutes and then take a cold plunge and then do yoga and then light some incense and have a coffee.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's what you see on social media.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: I don't do that.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: I don't think anybody does.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: That would be perfection.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, I don't do that, but continue.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Sorry, how did you come to the space of like?
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: This is what it looks like for me, you know, because being present probably looks different.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: It's personal, right?
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it could be walking your dog, it could be taking a walk, it could be reading a book, it could be like literally just sitting with your eyes closed and listening to the birds for two minutes.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I think those are all examples of being present.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a major theme that I'm working on in my life, but here was kind of the moment.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: So, you know, I had my baby 13 months ago and my husband and I are like sitting in our hospital bed and we're staring at this little miracle.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: We're not talking to each other and it was just this like awareness moment.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: For the first time in my life my 41 years of existence I experienced true contentment.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Life, my 41 years of existence, I experienced true contentment, which was beautiful.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: But the flip side of that for me was like, oh my gosh, lee, like I have been so unpresent for my life, like it was a beautiful moment, but then also I'm like I have not been present for my life.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: So, honestly, it was having this baby and for my listeners here, like the listeners, my other child is adopted, and so for having this biological baby, it was having this baby and for my listeners here, like the listeners, my other child is adopted, and so for having this biological baby, it was just this like wake up call for me to be present.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so kind of a span, and then you know being a mom of a teenager versus being a mom of a one-year-old, like that's that's different, right, and how you show up for each one of them in different ways.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: You said something really important there.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Like you felt for the first time this level of contentment that you had never experienced before.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: And you almost felt and these are my words, but like you missed out on something, right I just want to tell you like I think your story is incredible and I think, yeah, I think we have experiences in our life that lead us to the next and the next, and I think we have choices, you know, along the way and we're given kind of like do I do this or do I do that?
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: And we learn from our choices that we make each day.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: But I think your story is like one still being written and I think one that's really, really impactful and inspiring, because I think you had a space of your life, a time like yeah, you know, but Tali 1.0, where you were living a pretty tough life based on your choices, right, and now those choices now have helped you decide the choices you're going to make, moving forward, right.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: So I just want to kind of mirror to you, just like the things that I see in you that are just so inspiring and so vulnerable, so real, because I think that's what makes your message around perfectionism and how you just need to start being aware of it and then you can start working on it.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: It's it's so incredibly valuable to so many men or women, so I think you know just want to say that out loud Do you think that more women experience it than men?
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: So my research shows that men experience it at a slightly higher rate than women.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, so, right, right, so when I so, when I'm teaching it, I teach it.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm like and I point out that data, because a lot of when I started doing teaching this and companies, companies would send me.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: They're like, oh, go talk to the women's ERG, exactly yeah, they're like talk to our women's group and I'm like, I'm happy to, but like, let me show you the data that like, like everybody is experiencing this, like this is not a gender thing, this is a human thing.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Okay yeah, my bias was to think women.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I guess we talk about it more we start you know, I mean my leadership groups and things like that and memberships that I'm part of.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: It comes up, you know, that imposter syndrome too, but I wouldn't see why it wouldn't affect men.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: So I think that is interesting.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: So it really doesn't discriminate and so we should realize that too.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: So if we see it like, if we're parents, you know and some people are parents who are listening can we like put those things on our children, like if, if I have it, did I do it to my daughter?
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: You know, you always think as a parent, what did I do to mess up?
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: And like how great you turned out, even though I didn't know half the time if I was doing things right as a parent, right so I think we're always gonna we're never gonna be perfect as parents.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: I get when I'm doing all these trainings, people are like oh my gosh, vitaly, now that I have awareness of this, I've like, I feel like I've totally messed up my children.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: What do?
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I'm a big believer in heal yourself.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: You heal your child, yeah, like there's actually nothing you need to teach your child, there's nothing you need to do differently.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: You just actually need to start turning the volume down on your perfectionism yourself.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then our children pick up on that.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, like I think that that is, for me, kind of my philosophy around it, right, um and and take the pressure off of that, right Like, just make the adjustments within yourself and it's going to have a positive impact on those around you.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so in your work have you had any surprises of things people have said or the impact that you had that you never would have expected or thought could be possible?
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that's like a really big question.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: I'm always like, when I wrote my book and I wrote my memoir, I truly wrote it for me and I know that, like a lot of people are like, no, like people say that but really you write it because you want awards and you want it, but truly I wrote my memoir for me.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Now my next book might be a different situation, but I always feel pretty awesome when people reach out and they're like oh my gosh, thank you.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: I've never felt so seen and heard in my addiction, like, or your book helped me give up Adderall, your book encouraged me to break free of my addiction.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: So that is always really powerful for me and the perfectionism stuff is really powerful.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I mean I do this leadership program for women and after the first session, a woman messaged me and she was like just after your first class, my life has changed and so doing that kind of work is powerful and the things that I've been through in my life are worth it, so that I can help other people and also prevent them from being in the depths of perfectionism like I was.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so when you think about kind of writing the book and sharing that story, is there anything you would do differently now?
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Gosh, I don't know it's.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: It's interesting and I may have mentioned this to you, but I wrote the book before I started my corporate consulting business.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: So you know those things happened as they should have, because I don't think I ever would have written my memoir if I'd started my corporate consulting business first, because of the vulnerability.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Of it.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I mean people judging or thinking they know they don't, etc.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: They don't like people read it.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: They don't.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: And anyone who does judge me it's.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: That's not on me, that's on them.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Reflection.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, enough work there.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: But yeah, no, I mean I'm grateful that I did it.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: I won't ever read it again.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: I've read it and sent it and submitted it to the publisher and I was like I'm done.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Probably same thing with your book, lee.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: You're like I'm done reading all the edits.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's nothing I would do differently.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think there's beauty in your vulnerability.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: So, like I told you this in person, I'll say it again here on the podcast of like just being able to tell that story so succinctly, the way that you did, and be able to share it so someone can, like you said, be connected, be inspired, be seen.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Those are things I think were were planted on purpose, like you did that to help others, like your work that you're doing, and, yeah, definitely so I think, as we kind of think about perfectionism and kind of how do we, you know, identify it in your workshops, what you do and you also do speaking, and so like just tremendous ability to kind of connect with you on multiple levels.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Where do people come in?
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Cause I I'm assuming people could come in, like you said, slow or fast, or maybe in the middle.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Everyone maybe start to the different point of perfectionism.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Is that fair to say?
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, everyone's on their own journey.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, perfectionism is going to change based on the season of your life, right?
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: So it looks different when you're an individual contributor versus people, leader, versus seasoned people, leader versus C-suite.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: It looks different versus a single person, married with kids, without kids, divorced, empty nester, you know.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: So it's always going to look.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: We're going to have our own unique perfectionism pattern.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: The goal is to turn the volume down on it.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Learn the tools so that you can turn the volume down, so it doesn't run your life anymore, so that you are running your life.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how has being bold helped you tame perfectionism.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, yeah, I mean I would say that I've had to believe in myself and trust my intuition over what my perfectionism is telling me.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Got it Okay.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: So that requires a level of boldness, because I follow, you know, the perfectionism was with me for three and a half decades, whereas living without perfectionism, or the volume turned down significantly, has only been the last, you know, six or seven years.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so being patient with yourself.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: It sounds like that's a good message for people to hear.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, making it one day at a time, even though we have a lot like you'll have ups and downs at least I do and every day every day is not a perfect day.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: I think we could make every day and figure out how it was a good day, you know.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: So, and like, a bad day doesn't make a bad life.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: That's a quote somebody else's, but I just, you know, we do have those days and I think it's like moving forward is so, so important.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: So what's next?
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: So, like all the things that you're doing, tell us a little about how we can interact with you, your company and kind of the all the things that we can learn more about perfectionism and how you can help us.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can definitely connect with me on LinkedIn.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: I've been very intentional to be more present on LinkedIn so you can connect with me there If you are a female leader and this message really resonates with you.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: I have a program coming up.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: It's virtual, that is, for it's a small, smaller group, but it's a very intimate setting of overcoming perfectionism and a really deep dive to give you the tools to turn it down in a short period of time and then, with my you know culture work and training work.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: I mean just connecting with me on LinkedIn or going to my website bataliandcocom has all the details there, which is my most favorite work to do.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Nice, okay, so we'll definitely have all the links down there in the episode notes for everybody to access.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: And so tell me about kind of how you help organizations.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: What do they usually come to you to say, hey, can you help us with?
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: So sometimes they're able to draw a direct line between perfectionism and their culture or even their team Right.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: So I've had organizations say, but, holly, you know, I've had people, leaders, come to me and be like my entire team or you know department or segment is really struggling with perfectionism, especially a fear of failure Right, and it's impacting our ability to innovate, it's impacting our ability to move forward in a timely manner right, it's really impacting things.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: So I'll typically do longer term trainings right, where I take a leadership cohort through bi-monthly, so every other month or quarterly trainings, just depends on the cadence.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: So it's longer term work, because these habits require new habits right, and that requires time.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: And then I also am piloting.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Right now I'm really excited about I'm doing a trust assessment for the workplace that actually is able to measure the levels of trust and psychological safety within an organization or within a team.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: A perfectionist organization and a high trust organization it's one or the other, and we know that trust is the most important indicator for performance.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: And if it's the most important indicator of performance, we've got to work on the perfectionism problem so that you can build trust.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think those are super helpful.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Something that came to mind as you were talking was I think if I look back, I can probably find some stuff in childhood, but I think a lot of my perfectionism actually came from the corporate environment, possibly Definitely by having a narcissistic boss.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so in the sense of, if you've ever worked for a narcissist, you could never be good enough, you could never get it right, you could never do enough.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: And like I go back to kind of when I first started.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: You know I worked for a very long time but like when I first got that real, the real job, you know, director level, it's kind of where I'm honing in right now, where I was kind of starting to climb ladder and I had that experience and it was interesting because, like this is almost like therapy right now, because I'm thinking of like okay, that's really where things started to get high octane around working, expectation, how much what I did.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: So it's interesting.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Have you had any?
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: That might be something to explore.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Of course, like a corporation's not going to come to you and say, hey, we have narcissists and we'd love for you to come, but I bet there's several people listening who have maybe experienced a narcissist, or learned it after you know they left, or maybe even got let go Right.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: So have you found that to be part of anyone's perfectionism, like you know?
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: yes, okay, yes, it is Because a lot of people are like, okay, great, vitaly, you're teaching me all the things to really temper my perfectionism, but I report to a perfectionist.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: You know what am I supposed to do here?
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: And so obviously my preference is to work with all levels within an organization because it's, you know, a very like culturally can be, you know it's it's a bigger problem than just one team or one person, because the boss obviously needs to hear the message, doesn't mean he or she is going to be open to it, right.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: And so for me, it's teaching people tools to set boundaries with their perfectionist boss Got it Right Saying hey, you know, family is important to me.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: I, I, you know, at this time I'm going to be, you know, not answering emails after 7pm Because I want to be with my family.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not working on the weekends, like.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Or, you know, being more clear around your expectations for what your, you know, your workload and what you're willing to take on, which can be really scary when you're unlearning perfectionism.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: But it's even just more clearly committing those expectations and either the boss accommodates you at some point or you're like I'm gonna, I deserve a better place to work.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: I'm changing jobs, yeah, yeah, which is easier said than done, I think, oh my gosh, establishing some of those boundaries, but you have to start right, right, yeah, and I like supersede all those.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Like I didn't have any boundaries when I when it came to a particular boss, and I think I learned, I think I've worked for at least two that I can think of right now, but I think you know just someone knowing where to start, which is about you know what.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Where do you need to?
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: I would say, realigned, like, where are you out of alignment right now?
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Are you working too many hours?
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Are you working on weekends?
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Are you answering emails till, like, you fall asleep?
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Like, right, like you might want to like, if you're doing all of those, every single one of them, and sometime all at the same time.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Right, like it sounded, maybe check yourself Right.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Right yeah, an awareness opportunity for you, yeah.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: You say it nicer.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I like that, and I do think like there's an interesting connection that I'd love to explore more with you around the bold factor that someone has, and like their, their ability to tame their perfectionism.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, they're, I mean so correlated.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: I would not be able to overcome my perfectionism without being bold.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Wouldn't be possible?
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we know where to go on your website and things, but where does someone start?
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Like, if they just want to start exploring, should I take the quiz on your, your website?
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: I can do a quiz on my website.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, most definitely.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: And then my newsletter has a ton of free resources so they can sign up for that too on my website.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, great.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: So two free things that someone can do immediately to learn more.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: So excited to have you, to learn more from you and be inspired by you.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much for being on Bold Lounge.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me Leigh Absolutely Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.