Latest / The Partial Historians / Episode 150 - Rhetorical Fireworks

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Episode 150 - Rhetorical Fireworks · The Partial Historians

• Dr Rad 0:32 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historian's. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad. Dr G 0:41 And I am Dr. G. Dr Rad 0:44 So exciting Dr. G, because we are in yet another new recording setup. Dr G 0:51 Oh yeah, this is very exciting, dear listeners, through the valued support of our honoured patrons, we've been able to purchase some slightly upgraded microphones, hello, Dr Rad 1:04 I know and a mixer and everything. Dr G 1:07 I'm feeling like a genuine sound engineer who does not know what they're doing. Dr Rad 1:11 I Look at probably sounds crazy to you that we didn't have these things before. But hey, you know podcasting on a shoestring. And to be honest, it's also been very much affected by the fact that I have moved so many times that we needed to keep changing our microphones. Somewhere I was living about Dr G 1:28 changing our setup every year or so trying to figure out what would work in what space? Yes, Dr Rad 1:33 exactly. We're Dr G 1:34 pretty excited for this. Dr Rad 1:35 We are hoping that this is the sound Dr G 1:38 to Dr Rad 1:42 insert one of our high quality free sound effects you Dr G 1:45 Oh, I'm gonna keep the vocal. Dr Rad 1:48 But that is not the only thing that is new in our life at the moment. Dr. G. From these microphones. Dr G 1:53 I'm so excited. We are absolutely thrilled to announce our upcoming new book. I know we never thought we'd write another book again. Dr Rad 2:08 We really didn't. Particularly Not so soon. Dr G 2:13 But we were absolutely floored to be approached by Ulysses press. Yes. And they are really interested in ancient Rome, but like with a bit of fun involved and a little bit of like, new Greatest Hits elements. And we were like very happy to provide that were like there are so many Greatest Hits when it comes to ancient Rome. Yes. Dr Rad 2:38 So we are currently in the editing phase with this particular book. It will be out in November of this year, but you can pre order it now. It will be a little bit different to Rex in that we are going to be taking a slightly more populous turn, I'm going to say in a very wanqi way. Dr G 3:01 What that means what that translates to is less footnotes yes, maybe no footnotes, more jokes, Dr Rad 3:07 More drag race references that I'm sneaking in. Even if Dr G begs me not to, Dr G 3:13 I can assure you that there are some Monty Python puns and references. So I'm excited for that. Dr Rad 3:20 Yeah. So basically, it's us doing what we've always done, which is taking academic material, thank you academics, and translating it into something really fun and a little bit lighter to read so that if you're going on a holiday and you want some Roman history, you don't have to take every volume of Edward Gibbon with you. Dr G 3:40 Well, that's gonna free up some space in the old luggage to Dr Rad 3:43 ducted Gee, can you tell us just to give them a bit of a taste? What are some of our sections in the book? Dr G 3:50 Oh goodness. All right now. So thinking about some of the sections of the book, we went for puns all the way down. Yeah, in chapter titles. Dr Rad 3:59 I can't help myself when it comes to my one true gift and Dr G 4:05 the one that I'm working on at the moment is Better Call Sulla. Oh, which I quite Dr Rad 4:12 like I do like that one. And that was actually all you. Dr G 4:15 Why, thank you. But you've got some great ones. Deadtime Stories. Dr Rad 4:20 That is one of the sections where you will find stories of Notable deaths in ancient Rome. I did also like your 'Animal Tales'. Wink Wink. Dr G 4:30 and 'We built this city on rock and roads.' Dr Rad 4:33 They certainly did. To be honest, that's not a pun. That's just true. Dr G 4:37 It's just the literal truth. It's not my fault. Somebody wrote a song about it. Dr Rad 4:40 Yeah. So if that sounds like your cup of tea, please jump on and preorder now because I suspect that the more pre orders they are, the more our publishers will think yes, we need more of this kind of stuff. We want to commission more books. Dr G 4:55 And I think this is the thing with modern publishing as well like pre orders do count. We're a lot of the sort of hyping up of something as well. So if you're interested and you enjoy our podcast, and especially if you enjoyed Rex, I think because this will give you a sense of comparison between the different styles that these kinds of writing of history could take. Because they're quite they're our personalities, I think, are going to come through and shine through really strongly. In both books, yeah. But like the way that they're laid out, and the way that they do the history is going to probably Look like a little bit different. So I think that's really interesting as well. Yeah. What I would say I Dr Rad 5:36 agree. And because this is written in a series of short stories, I suppose that's really what it is kind of like short stories, and trivia and that kind of thing from ancient Rome. There's just huge diversity there, not too long. And it really is one of those things where you can just dive in and dive out, you know, you don't have to sit there and read the whole book in one sitting in order to understand it by what I know. Although you will, of course, miss the cumulative effect of my drag race-themed references. Dr G 6:06 And we wouldn't recommend missing that. Dr Rad 6:08 Exactly. But yeah, it is one of those things where you could definitely, you know, take a chapter for a class, not one of the Dr G 6:16 I guess it depends on the school's policy. Well, yes. I Dr Rad 6:18 mean, we do have a chapter on phalluses Whoa, Dr G 6:21 you've let the cat out of the bag. I Dr Rad 6:24 know. But you know what, I figured it was gonna happen anyway, with a phallic Thursday. So why not do it now? Because today will be a Thursday by the time we released this episode. That is our choice. That is That's Dr G 6:35 true. Yeah. All right. All right. So without further ado, Dr Rad 6:39 let's do it. Okay. So Dr. G, we normally don't spruik our book, we normally talk about ancient Roman history. We go at a snail's pace. Dr G 6:51 We are trying to win the award for the longest ever undertaking of Roman history on Dr Rad 6:56 important. Yeah, I think we can do it. I mean, you know, Dr G 7:00 I know that we ain't got no rivals right now. Everybody Dr Rad 7:01 else has already finished. Exactly. And when you go to your lab section in your library, and you see all the volumes of liquor, you think, wow, that's long. Dr G 7:11 Just you wait, and you're up to book five. Dr Rad 7:15 Not finished it just up to it. Yeah, yeah. All right. So we're talking about early Republican history, we last time, we actually covered a couple of years because there wasn't a huge amount going on. But certainly, Rome was at war. They Dr G 7:30 were and you know, I've had it a dearth of sources for quite some time now. And I've really just got like place names, hints and tips about where Rome might have been having some like military dissatisfaction or satisfaction, depending on the day Dr Rad 7:47 Miliatry dissatisfaction. I like that way of saying war. Yes, well, last time, we were setting up the siege they, which we know is going to be something that's ongoing and long. But we also were dealing with warfare against the Volscians. Good old Volscians. Yeah. Dr G 8:08 What are those classic ongoing nemeses of Rome. Yes, Dr Rad 8:12 exactly. And they actually had a bit of a victory against the Volscians thanks to a treacherous slaved. Can't get good help these days. Dr G 8:22 Servilius Romanus so I believe his name was That's correct Dr Rad 8:25 that well, that's the name. He was given a course after he turned coat. Dr G 8:29 And what do you think he was called before he got that name all the way to Dr Rad 8:35 Loyalest Mostest. Dr G 8:38 Shining Star of the Volscii I tried, Dr Rad 8:42 He was the best slave they ever had. But anyway, so they had some victories, which was good, because you know, the situation at bay, it's just kind of a bit of a standstill, if I'm honest. But we did also even a little bit before that something which I think is going to be significant to recap, we've been dealing with the issue of military paid Dr G. Dr G 9:00 Ah yes. Yeah. Look, Livy's seems to suggest that, what 406 is the first year where military pay gets introduced, but we're pretty sure that's just a sort of a hint of maybe the professionalisation of the army that will come much later. Yeah. This seems to be a bit of a one off, maybe based on circumstance. Yes. Dr Rad 9:21 And I think that's very much tied up with the situation out there. And since that's our focus today, I thought I'd better mention that, because we went through the whole backstory. If you want to hear more about it, please go and check out our episode on 406 BCE to hear all the details. But certainly there's a lot of debate about actually what was going on why it was introduced, was it introduced? What form did it take? They're just questions that are unanswered, where does the money come from? Other than money. So I definitely suggest checking out that episode if you want the full backstory. But with that being said, Dr. G, I think it's time to dive into 403 BCE. You can't see us right now listeners, but we always do wavy arms when that happens Dr G 10:29 we insert music later in post. Dr Rad 10:31 And we have to remind ourselves by doing the way. All right Dr. G. Now I'm guessing that Dionysius is still keeping his distance from you now, Dr G 10:41 How dare he, I'm so sad. Dr Rad 10:44 He's the first man that I've known who's able to keep away from you. Dr G 10:47 I do have some very exciting news though. Dr Rad 10:50 What is that? Dr G 10:51 I do have a new source Dr Rad 10:54 Is it Valerius Maximus. Dr G 10:55 Yes. And Dr Rad 10:59 Feel like I'm in improvisation here. What's your other source? Dr G 11:05 Plutarch, - gasp - I know.! Dr Rad 11:08 Of course, Plutarch, dammit, I knew that. Dr G 11:13 I was like, filler respects was How did she know Dr Rad 11:15 that exciting stuff. That is exciting stuff. But Look, even though you have Plutarch, and Valerius Maximus and therefore actually out-source me. I'm still gonna let you do the magistrates, because I feel like it's kind of become your thing. Dr G 11:29 And also, like, as fair warning, neither of the sources that I have annalistic in nature. Dr Rad 11:35 Well, I had a feeling . Dr G 11:36 it's all over the shop. So alright, so military tributes with continental power is the name of the game for 403. Is Dr Rad 11:43 it just I feel like there are a lot of people. There Dr G 11:47 are many, many people. At the very least there are six and at the very most possible nine. Wow. Yeah, just madness. Well, you know, there Dr Rad 11:57 is a lot of conflict going on right now. Well, yeah. And even they insist on telling us that it's not because of that. I feel like it is because there's definitely something going there's nothing going on. Dr G 12:07 There's a bit of bloating at the top at this point. Six military tribunes It's a lot. So we have Manius Aemilius Mamercinus. Dr Rad 12:17 A name i know well. Dr G 12:18 or Mamercus. Nobody sure about that one. Yeah. He was previously consul in 410. Yes. And was also a military tribune with consular power in 405. Yeah. So he's had a couple of tours of duty at the top. Yes. Dr Rad 12:31 And I think also, this is a name that we're familiar with. I feel like it's a it's a family name that's been passed down because we've had we've had a guy with a very similar name before who's been involved in some stuff. Yeah. And Dr G 12:41 the Amelii gens is one of these well known. We've got these famous families and This list is populated exclusively with very famous families Dr Rad 12:52 Are you suggesting that it shouldn't be a patrician? Dr G 12:56 I mean, the whole point when they said they were going to have military tribunes was to allow plebeians go and that's never happened. Clearly Dr Rad 13:03 just a gesture. Like exactly to make people feel like they had to say but I hate it when they do that. Alright, so we've got Aemilius. Dr G 13:13 number two is Lucius Valerius Potitus. Okay, yes. Also a military tribune with consular power previously in 414 and 406. Ooh, the notable year notable Yeah, so maybe popular pants. Dr Rad 13:30 Well, the Valerii I generally a pretty popular family out they Dr G 13:35 they say to me, yeah. Then we have Appius Claudius Crassus Inregillensis Dr Rad 13:42 Boo Hiss! Dr G 13:45 The Claudii are back in town. Dr Rad 13:47 Yeah, it's been it's been too long. To be honest. I've actually been kind of missing their presence as villains in our story. Yeah, Dr G 13:54 my note here is cool. Cool. Cool. Yeah. I love it. Great. Fantastic. So glad for that. Marcus Quinctilius Varus. Dr Rad 14:05 Okay, new kid on the block Dr G 14:06 number four. Yep. And then number five Lucius Iulius Vopisci maybe Iullus. There's a there's a whole bunch of I feel like we need some complicated names in there. Yeah, Dr Rad 14:19 whenever we mentioned someone with the Iulii 's name I feel like there's always like a question mark. Iullus. Yes Your name Dr G 14:26 Yeah, like there's like a refinement within the family tree. Oh, my Dr Rad 14:31 Are their parents this cruel? Dr G 14:37 And then we have Marcus Furius Fusus. Dr Rad 14:42 thank God. The Furii have really been dropping the ball if I'm being honest. They're back. Yeah, so back and yeah, here we sit in our Furii t-shirts ready for action? Dr G 14:54 I'm so excited. So these are the six who we are feel relatively confident. And confidence is a pretty low measure of things when it comes to this period of Roman history, because we've got the FastI Capitolini is essentially the source for these names. And we know it was created late. Dr Rad 15:12 I actually have the perfect analogy for this. It's about as confident as I feel in a bikini. Oh, that's not much listeners, not much, but Dr G 15:21 you Look great. And then we've got these three other figures who shadowing Yeah, they don't appear on the Fasti. Also, it seems weird that they have to be somewhere because they do things in this year. Sure. The first one is Marcus Postumius. And this might be a real furphy of a figure because we're about to have another Marcus Postumius Albinus Regillensis. I did notice that they were to be the same guy. But one we don't know their full name. Yep. But the really important one out of these three is Marcus Furius Camillus. Dr Rad 16:01 See? Suspicious? Because why do we have two sets of guys with very similar names? I know, Camillus is the guy that you were reading about in Plutarch. So I know he's a he's a thing. But it's just weird to have two sets of guys with very similar names and question marks around some of them. Dr G 16:21 Yeah, so we've got that Marcus Furius Fusus. As a military Tribune, yeah, we've got our Marcus Furius Camillus. Yeah, like, Okay, well, I mean, they are different names. But there's only one name. That's different. All right. Okay. Yeah, that's possible. But is it? Is it what's going on? And then the two Marcus Postumii? i Yeah, yeah. So we've got lots of questions. And not only that, those last three that have the question marks around them, as potential military tribunes with consular power. Two of them may have also have served as censors with more question marks. Yeah, Dr Rad 16:56 definitely. It's not just question marks about whether they were censors. I mean, we have question marks about how official any of these sorts of positions really are. I know that it was actually quite a while ago that we did an episode about the census in the Republic. But nonetheless, there are questions about how the Romans really at this early stage regularly taking a census of a Oh, Dr G 17:19 there. Yeah, these are the things that again, you know, it's we're just not sure about? Yeah, there's definitely been instances where the census has been referenced before show that we've just absolutely, yeah, whether they're doing a census now open to question whether these two guys, are the censors, even bigger questions, because the way that we understand the census, from later periods when we've got much better evidence, is that the censorship is kind of this additional mastery that sits above and beyond and slightly outside of the cursus. honorum. Yeah. But it tends to be the kind of position that you only take up once you've reached that whole threshold within the Cursus honorum. So it would be usually given to somebody extremely wise, extremely powerful. Somebody who's had the consulship before. And in this case, we've got a couple of what appeared to me maybe no names coming through. Dr Rad 18:14 He's a Furii! Dr G 18:17 Oh, yeah. But even so Dr Rad 18:20 to be starting your career with this, which is what it seems like Dr G 18:23 that's that's the way that the evidence is presenting itself right now. Yeah. And that makes us wonder, what do we know about the censorship? Really? Yes, period, which is not a lot. How does that compare to the later version of the censorship? We're not sure. And who is this Camillus character anyway? Dr Rad 18:41 Well, exactly. And I mean, I think one of the things we can say about the censors and the census in this period is that, Look, if I was going to bet on anything, it'd be that they're taking account of the citizens, because that's just makes good sense. But as for the other powers that a censor has, they're the ones I have real questions about. So I'm Dr G 19:03 looking forward to the sorts of details that Livy might have on this. And so then I can share with you the really bizarre details that I think I might have. Dr Rad 19:11 Let me tell you 403 is another bumper year. It's kind of like the way that I make my stepkids have like only big birthdays every three years, four or six was a big year now for three is a big sorry stepkids. Anyway, all right. So let me set the scene for you a little bit and you can jump in with your Plutarch and your Valerius Maximus when you feel the need. So peace was to be found everywhere in Italy, except between Rome and Veii Dr G 19:44 Wow, okay, well, that does not explain six military tribunes with consular power. Dr Rad 19:48 No. Now, as we said, we know that there was conflict brewing in this quarter that has been bubbling away for the last couple of years. Okay. Hence potential The Military Pay may be becoming a feature, right? So by this point, after a few years, they're both incredibly worked up. And I'm sorry, I'm just gonna have to use this analogy. It's a Harry Potter and Voldemort situation one of them has to go. They can't both survive at the moment. It's just at that point, it's going to be a war to the death this time. So both cities hold their different kinds of elections. Romans decided that they were going to go for military tribunes, as you've noted, and even Livy notes that there were more than usual, he gives me the number of eight. Oh, Dr G 20:39 okay. Well, out of a possible nine. Interesting. Dr Rad 20:43 Exactly, exactly. Now, the people are they they're channelling a bit of the feelings that the Romans had not so long ago, which is that they are O V A campaigning, year in year out. It's just military service. It's just fighting. So they decide that a way of dealing with this situation would be to elect a king. Oh, I know. Fascinating. I know. Right? Oh, Dr G 21:10 well. I mean, so the Etruscans have kings. Yeah. They've had kings before. It's an option. Yeah. I didn't know they weren't doing it all the time. Dr Rad 21:19 Well, yeah. This is the interesting thing, isn't it? Yes. And the other interesting detail I can add here is that the rest of the Etruscan people because of course Veii is just one city, out of many Etruscan cities, 12 ,in fact, and the other Etruscan people are horrified. They hate the idea of kings, apparently. And they also personally dislike the person who was elected. So it's a double whammy that that suggests Dr G 21:46 that the politics of the Etruscans has really progressed since we last checked in with how they were running their show. Dr Rad 21:51 I was gonna say they seemed very upset when Lars Tolumnius died. He was a king. Exactly. That wasn't that long ago. It was not that long ago. I mean, for us, it was years ago, of course, but for them, it was decades. Yeah, it is a bit strange. And it feels like Dr G 22:09 a narrative of convenience. Livy? Look, Dr Rad 22:12 it seems like it's been about 35 years since we've had an Etruscan King mentioned in a way that we can understand about Yeah, and nothing has been said about, you know, the Etruscans going down the Roman path of swearing that as God was theirwitness, they'd never have kings again. Dr G 22:29 I'm throwing you out and you're staying out! Yeah!, Dr Rad 22:32 so it seems like maybe the Romans are just assuming that everybody hates kings as much as they do. But it does also imply this weird thing that kings are somehow an optional accessory in the Etruscan state. Dr G 22:44 Maybe they are an optional accessory, but doesn't sound like anybody Etruria is very happy about that. Dr Rad 22:49 It's just so weird. But anyway, now the reason why crisis Yeah, yeah, that's true. Maybe Maybe their option of King is a bit like the Roman option of dictator. Maybe that's what it's about. But who knows, unfortunately, Livi gives me no more detail. He just goes on to trash the king in question. Now, the reason why he was disliked was that he was super duper wealthy and arrogant. What a terrible combination. Dr G 23:16 I don't know why you'd put somebody like that in power Dr Rad 23:18 I know. Now on top of that, his actions suggests that he's just not really a very kingly character. He had busted up a very serious sacred religious festival. I mean, that's sacrilege. Dr. G Dr G 23:31 Literally. Okay. So the gods aren't on Veii's side at this. Dr Rad 23:35 It was in a this is where we're going because yeah, basically, he was just angry about some perceived slights politically and so he was in a bad mood, and he decided he was going to ruin the Gods good time. Dr G 23:49 Okay, do we have this guy's name? Dr Rad 23:51 No don't think so. So anyway, he's not happy about the fact that the Etruscans had chosen someone else to be priest instead of him. He says get the better of him. Clearly somebody whose emotions not under control, which means it's weird that if they're only electing a king in a time of crisis, they turned to this guy. Dr G 24:12 Yeah, you're not putting the best man in for the job. No wonder the rest of the Etruria is up in arms, being like, are you idiots? Dr Rad 24:19 Yeah. And the Etruscans. As we know, the stereotype is in Roman sources that they are very religious, like more religious than the Romans. I mean, Livy basically given the impression in this account that they live for nothing but religion. Dr G 24:33 Well, and a lot of Roman ritual seems to have been passed through in from that cultural lens of the Etruscans as well. So you definitely see where that idea might come from. Dr Rad 24:43 Oh, for sure. Look, there's no denying that the Etruscans were religious people, but we know that something of a stereotype that they are, you know, it's like saying the ancient Egyptians were for religion like yeah, it was very important was very central, but we have to also remember, that's also just the kind of stuff that survived from their civilization. You know, the big stone temples and whatnot? Yes, they did take it very seriously. But we are only looking at part of the puzzle here. So I'm always a bit you know, hesitant about that kind of stuff but as we know they're also very big intellect religious rights, making sure that they are followed through properly. So this kind of thing, just not okay in the Etruscan rulebook according to the Romans. Dr G 25:23 What a lens. Yeah, now Dr Rad 25:25 the Etruscans decided as a people like as in collectively, that they were not going to assist very in any conflicts. If they insisted on having a king. They actually took a vote on it. Wow, okay, you're out in your own. Yep. You absolutely. Oh, boy. The people were they did not tell the king this because they were really worried that given his temper, he was going to shoot the messenger. Dr G 25:48 Seems like this is going to lead to some future problem. Yeah, yeah. Dr Rad 25:52 He basically would have seen anyone who told him this as the head of some secret rebel conspiracy against him, rather than someone who was just simply reporting what had happened. Oh, yeah. Yes. So the Romans hear about this. And this is obviously good news for the Romans, because they now know that they is kind of on their own. However, they're also aware that that might not always be the case. And clearly, they're kind of aware that this is going to be a long game situation, just in case they decide while they're doing their season, that they're going to build double fortifications. One set looking to vai and one set looking in the general direction of Etruria. Which to be honest, I feel like they both have Dr G 26:39 a very similar position. Just in Dr Rad 26:43 case they decided like once things started getting real, that they were going to come to Veii's aid after all. Okay, Dr G 26:50 so is the idea here that these fortifications are relatively close to Veii as opposed to Rome, Rome is not taking a defensive position here, but more, they're putting a forward fortification in place to enable them to have a position to easily attack from I Dr Rad 27:07 wish that he gave me that much detail. I don't I don't really know. But the way it's described, it does kind of sound like it might be defensive fortifications for Rome, perhaps. And that's why maybe they're slightly different directions. Because obviously, if you would literally at they, why would you build double fortifications, you're literally on the doorstep? Well, Dr G 27:28 it means that you can have like, sort of an encampment, Dr Rad 27:31 I suppose. Yeah, that's true. They are setting up an encampment, so not a Dr G 27:35 terrible military strategic. Really? Dr Rad 27:39 I mean, I know that they are obviously deciding on a seat. Okay. Dr G 27:44 So if we're thinking about the position of a relative to the position of the rest of Etruria. Yeah, Veii is directly north, not very far away. No. So you could have something that sort of positioned at the edge of the Tiber River, presumably, on Rome side, defensive fortification, but you could also have something off to the north east, potentially, on the side of the Janiculum. That would allow a sort of more advanced forward defence fortification, Dr Rad 28:13 let's run with that the Romans seem to know what they're doing. So I'm going to assume that they're being smart about it. Let's hope so. Yeah. Now, this is obviously an interesting situation, because once again, we do have this division between the Etruscans, you know that they're not automatically going to fight together. Now, we've seen this before, it's very clear that each of the 12, Etruscan civilizations are free to act independently. It's not something you can assume that they're going to all come together and come to your aid and that sort of thing. However, it does show what we see the common bond between them that they actually get together and vote on these sorts of issues, as well as having religious celebrations which can be interrupted. So Dr G 28:54 it's a well functioning League of states, essentially. Dr Rad 28:59 Yes, exactly. Yeah. All right. So the Roman generals who are in charge, they have decided upon a siege, not just a straight attack at bay, therefore, the soldiers are going to be setting up winter quarters, which they have not apparently done before. Well, Dr G 29:17 that doesn't make sense. According to 406 BCE. Dr Rad 29:23 This is the thing I think this is how these stories are connected. And Look, I told you the chronology is messy at this point in time and things might not be happening quite when Livy's says they are in quite the order, etc, etc. But this is exactly what the plebeians had been suspicious about some of the complaints I should say, when military pay was introduced. So kind of like, Guys, this stuff isn't coming to you for free. Like there's always going to be strings attached. The patricians aren't just randomly nice, even though that's what you seem to be taking away from this situation. Dr G 29:57 I'm shivering in this new camp. The made and even though they pay me, I don't know if it's worth losing all my toes. Dr Rad 30:05 Dear Lucretia I don't know whose idea it was for us to wear sandals all the time, but I hate it. And why do we wear skirts? Dr G 30:16 My balls are freezing. Dr Rad 30:20 All right, sir. People in Rome hear about this decision, and they're not happy about it. Specifically, an a tribune of the plebs. Oh, Dr G 30:31 I have no named characters. Oh. They're just out and about. I mean, I assume they exist. Yeah. Dr Rad 30:39 I don't know who the tribunes actually are, except for the fact that they are once again troublesome, unhappy with the situation. Yeah, exactly. So Livy's says that it's because everything had actually been quite fine. And they've been given nothing to be upset about that they decided to make a mountain out of a molehill about this whole issue, because they needed to find something to be upset about because otherwise the plebeians weren't going to be unhappy with the patricians and things would be peaceful. Dr G 31:03 I don't know about that just told them that they're gonna have to overwinter as part of this new military strategy. I feel like the plebs are pretty capable of being upset all by themselves, Dr Rad 31:14 Pish tosh Dr G. It's quite clearly a situation of things being spun so that they Look much worse than they actually are. Dr G 31:22 Oh, Livy's, revealing your conservative leanings. Exactly. Dr Rad 31:26 Yeah. So the tribunes of the plebs decide that this is something they could make the plebeians angry about. And so they start doing that. They start pointing out, we told you strings attached, those are strings Pinocchio, where you told you that there would be some reason that money was being introduced to military service. We knew it, we knew it. We told you, so we're going to do the I told you so dance. Because they had suspected the patricians would never do something just to be nice. Young men are clearly going to be required now to serve endlessly. Where's the time for self care? Where's the time for family? Where is the work life balance? Winter has now been taken away from us. It's not coming. It's going. Why? Why? Because the patricians were trying to get virile young bands out of the city, so they could not campaign for anything or help the plebeians as a group. These were going to be the young men who were sent off to Veii, they of course, they're going to be worse off than the people in Veii because clearly they're going to be left defenceless and alone. Dr G 32:21 Or use bad times. And I can see that maybe the tribune of the plebs have an interest in like whipping up the plebeians? Dr Rad 32:46 Of course. Oh, yeah. And they're not done yet. Dr G 32:49 I'm still having the visual of them dancing on like the rostra being like, it's happening. We foreshadowed it is happening. And everybody being like Booooooo! Yeah. Dr Rad 33:03 Well, they point out that the people of Veii because they're the ones being besieged, they get to live in their own houses. They get to live behind their own walls, where are the plebeians going to be out in the middle of frickin nowhere shivering, that's adopted you the Dr G 33:19 convenience of being the besieged. I Dr Rad 33:21 know, the ones enduring food shortages and famine, potentially, I don't know. So the Roman soldiers are going to have the pressure of being constantly on the watch on the job. And they're doing it in winter conditions. Oh, you wait for Dr. G. They can no whip out the S word. This is slavery. Dr G 33:42 Oh, my God. Yeah, Dr Rad 33:45 not even the kings. Not even the consuls, and I'm talking about the consoles before there was the option technically of military tribune with consular power where plebeians could technically run for office, but they never get it. Okay, dictators, decemvirs. None of them as bad as they were had to treat the plebeians like this keeping them at war. Always. Dr G 34:10 Who's gonna grow the food? Yeah, who's gonna defend the city if another enemy like, I don't know, the Volscii show up. Dr Rad 34:18 Oh, and you haven't even thought of the worst situation. Dr. G. What if the men now trying to impose these conditions on the people ever became actual consuls instead of military tribunes with consular power or worse yet, dictators, Dear God, it would be a blood bath. But of course Dr G, the plebeians kind of deserved it because after all, they have yet to elect a single to plebeian to the Office of Military Tribune with consular power and now they were flanked by eight patrician options. What the actual hell? Dr G 35:03 the argument that the tribute of the plebs are putting forward? Like you've had to chance, this is what you've done. I'm Dr Rad 35:08 still channelling their voice. These are my points of view. No, no, no. You got I just got she's lost it. Truck finally got to it. No, no, no, no, this is what they're saying. They're like, Couldn't there be just one out of eight? To remind the patricians that the plebeians would like to see their families from time to time? End of story. Dr G 35:32 We just need a seat at the table, guys. Yeah. And you didn't do it never voted anyone in Dr Rad 35:38 exactly. And you know it to be honest, if things are happening the way that they say I actually do not blame them. However, it seems super suspicious that the plebeians would never elect one of their own. Like, it's just been too long at this point in time. And this is one of those things where we have to suspect the narrative of the conflict of the orders. It just doesn't make sense. It is Dr G 36:01 a problematic narrative in many respects. And I think also part of our issue is that we would love to know more about how the voting system actually worked at this point in time, but it's very early days in terms of the Republican system. And the very concept of saying that there is a Republican system is maybe too soon for that. Absolutely. So is it the case that the plebeians are not in a position politically in terms of the nature of the voting to be able to get up one of their own? I suspect that's what I feel like if we Look at the way that voting systems turn out in a later Republic, that might be part of the explanation. But it's also Yeah, it just seemed weird. I mean, from Livy's sort of rhetorical perspective, because he's definitely bringing some light, you know, big, bold characterizations here. Some sweeping brushstrokes, and quiet like of the drama. is, there's this suggestion that there's this ongoing process of struggle that sits behind everything. Yes. And so that question about what is going on here, is never really fully resolved. Now, from a historians perspective, Dr Rad 37:15 I think that's exactly it. As we've often highlighted, I just find it hard to believe that if the liens truly are a outnumbering the patricians, which seems likely given everything we've been told, and be able to elect one of their own to the most prestigious office in the state, it just seems so unlikely that they wouldn't have done it at least once in the past, what, 45 years or something, they've been able to do it, it just doesn't make sense. There has to be something else going on here. Which if we Look at the voting system, as you say, it might be that technically the rich, their vote counts for more, or something like that. Who knows? But it's got to be something like that. Dr G 37:53 That certainly plays into later understandings of voting systems. But yes, yeah, yeah. Dr Rad 37:58 Yeah, Dr G 37:59 interesting and dramatic. Dr Rad 38:00 I know. I think the thing that we that I reason why I have to highlight it is because it's just so disgusting. That Livy's makes it their fault, that their situation Dr G 38:13 Way to victim blame Livy. Exactly, Dr Rad 38:15 exactly, yes. Like, you know, oh, you can't afford to turn the heating on for your family. You can't afford good food for your family, it was clearly your fault for being poor. I just find those narratives too similar to some that we hear today as well. Dr G 38:29 Completely demeaning, and inappropriate. Exactly. Dr Rad 38:33 Now, you may have noticed that the way I was speaking just soon, as well, you did notice that it's kind of odd, because I wasn't actually giving you like a speech, per se. And there was no one named right. Lean into that because I think that's also I think that's also a rhetorical device because we're about to have our response that goes for paragraphs to what the tribune of the plebs said, which is just reported, it's not an actual speech, okay. It's likely to be paraphrasing what they're talking about. Okay. And they are unnamed, and Dr G 39:05 he's now going to give a real like a speech in quotation marks as far as he's concerned. Yeah. Dr Rad 39:10 He is now giving a speech - flesh rabbits. Boing, boing! to none other than Appius Claudius. Oh, no. He's back baby. Well, I mean, he's not, but yeah, his family is back. Dr G 39:28 The Boys are back in town. Oh, well, I can't wait to hear what a Claudii has to say on this matter. Yeah. Dr Rad 39:36 It is quite a long speech. So basically, one of the reasons obviously for having 8 military tribunes with consular power is that some of them obviously need to be off setting up the siege against Veii dealing with that kind of stuff, but he can't leave the people of Rome completely unattended, especially if they're mostly plebeians. Who knows what they get up to Dr. G, and therefore, some military tribunes had been late. Left Behind specifically to snuff out any potential treachery and it's just as well, they did, because the tribune of the plebs has played right into their hands. Dr G 40:08 Oh, boy. All right. Okay, that's the setup. It's not the case that you would want to have a military Tribune located in Rome, like you do almost every year that we've had military tribunes in exactly just in case. Yep. Somebody comes up from another area. Yeah. And attempts to attack road nothing to do while the other guys are out and about. Dr Rad 40:28 It's not normal. It's not normal. It's clearly something concerning, there's something sinister going on. Oh, there is now Appius Claudius comes from a family very experienced with dealing with tribune of the plebs, and they like, and their attempts to stir up trouble. Now, although this is not the famous Appius Claudius, in fact, there's been a couple of famous Appius Claudii that we have dealt with over the years. This is not one of the ones you know, from the December and that sort of thing, but these are their descendants and therefore, as we have highlighted before, the Romans actually think they are very similar in character. This is a guy that we have mentioned before there, he was the one who a few years ago suggested the strategy of turning the tribune of the plebs against each other. Oh, Dr G 41:14 yeah. Okay, this guy, this Appius Claudius. Yeah. Okay. Now, of course, cut from the same cloth, Dr Rad 41:21 educated Roman. He's got the gift of the gab Dr. G. He's good with his rhetoric. And that's why he gets an actual speech apparently, and a name. They could now be no doubt that the tribune of the plebs were not really working for the benefit of the plebeians. They're just troublemakers. It's obvious. Whenever there may have been something wrong with their lives, emphasis on the word May, the tribune of the plebs just blow it all out of proportion and make it into such a big deal. Now, they were even stooping so low Dr. G, that they were trying to spin something good into something evil. Military Pay was designed by the patricians to restore peace to Roman society, but it is a cool way to claim that the tribune of the plebs just want to hate whatever the patricians do, regardless of whether it actually benefits the plebeians or not so ungrateful. I know. The Tribunes of the plebs only exists to solve political problems so they can then create them. Or they can just so they can stay in a job. Dr G 42:35 If it's not dramatic, like why are we here? I mean, the people don't need looking after if everything's good, right, so things must be bad. Dr Rad 42:41 Exactly. Now, the tribune of the plebs, jealously guard access to the lands and won't allow contact between the plebeians and the patricians because they don't want anyone realising how kind and magnanimous and just frickin amazing the patricians actually are because their loyalties might get transferred. They need to keep them angry and separated. Dr G 43:07 Are we talking about the same Claudii, who have treated everybody so badly so often over successive generations? They have not treated me and you're telling me this, Claudius is now telling us that, you know, they've got a heart of gold and they've just been misunderstood. I think Dr Rad 43:23 you will find if you examine the historical record that the Claudii have been harsh, but fair, oh, boy. So he basically likens this again to slavery. Interestingly, saying it's kind of like when the Masters won't allow other people to interact with their slaves in any capacity whether to you know, beat them up or give them a little kiss or something, because they just don't want them exposed to you know, any outside influences. That's what this situation is like. The champions of the plebs should clearly have spent some time fostering their kindly side, and by their I mean the patrician's kind side. And they should have been working on the plebeians obedience. Oh, Harmony would be possible. If the tribunes just you know, got on the good side of the patricians and made the plebeians obey everything they said, clearly, Dr G 44:18 I think this, this whole argument rests on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the role of the tribune of the plebs might be. Well, Dr Rad 44:26 I think you'll change your mind cuz I've got quite some time. Now, if there was internal peace in Rome because the patricians and plebeians were actually getting along with each other, the sky was the limit for Rome. It's this internal division that's holding them back. They would dominate everyone in the area. But alas, Tribune's. Dr G 44:48 Okay, all right. Appius. Claudius, Dr Rad 44:51 now he gets the actual point of military pay. So the tribunes of the plebs, were suggesting that no pay should be good. Even now, because it had not been given in the past. You remember that was one of the arguments they put forward in 406 that like how are you going to, you know, back pay these people? Yeah, how are you going to sustain this exactly unfair, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, but you are missing something here. It makes no sense to back pay, because the work conditions are new. Therefore, it's a new situation. Therefore, new pay has been introduced, things are just evolving in tandem with each other. And it's also normal for people to get paid work. Dr G 45:35 Well, but surely it would also be normal for them to get paid for their regular summer military gig. Dr Rad 45:41 No, no, that is not the case. Because he's like, it's stupid. That pre that people who serve previously and like volunteered for it are upset now. That is stupid. And that is because they got six months of the year off. They got to go home and see their families and farm and stuff. These guys aren't getting that. That is why they're getting pay. Okay? You can't have everything. Don't get greedy. Now soldiers are happy to receive pay. And in return, they should be okay with being away for a little longer just to touch. Dr G 46:16 little icicles hanging off their moustaches. Yeah. Dr Rad 46:19 And this is just oh my god, this this just seems like something that someone today could easily say. It wouldn't be right, if they got paid for a year service, but only worked half. What. So he's basically saying like, if we introduce military pay, but still allow them to go home for six months for years, they'd effectively be getting paid for like a year's work, but they'd only be working for half. That's what he's suggesting. Now, I know what you're gonna say logically, why not just pay them a little less and pay them for six months? Don't get carried away with ledger have Dr G 46:49 they considered having a two levee system where they've got the summer army and the winter army and they rotate and people who want to get paid sign up for the winter army. And people who just like to Swan around in the sunshine, volunteer for some of military work. Dr Rad 47:09 You know, I texted you. I'm at a point in the speech where Appius is getting uncomfortable talking about money, Dr G 47:15 classics, patrician, it's Dr Rad 47:16 crass. It's mercenary and crass. Dr G 47:19 It's time to move on to something else. This this point is not well, with the crowd. Dr Rad 47:24 His point is that we shouldn't really be talking about money, because quite frankly, this is a civic issue. You're a citizen of this place, are you not? And therefore why are we even paying you? Yeah, it makes you seem like a mercenary. Dr G 47:38 Yeah, you're just doing your civic duty. Exactly. Dr Rad 47:40 Defending Rome, so Dr G 47:41 we can all enjoy it. Yeah. Dr Rad 47:42 Why are we even bothering to nice to you? We are the state we are the government. It's just a fact. That room should not have started the war or should just get on with it. Like room would, which is awesome, obviously. And get it over with ASAP. I mean, we all know that Rome is going to win. Now. That's a very convenient argument. Because quicker get this done, the less we have to pay. It's great for him to say well, clearly Rome should have started wherever there's gonna be an issue. But we have so we've just got to continue. Surely, surely the Romans are fired up about they surely they want to finish the war. For that reason alone. All of Greece was happy to fight for 10 years over one woman. What is room's excuse at the moment? The Romans aren't even in that bad situation. They're barely away from home. They is really close and it's all going to be over really soon. Stop you're complaining. Dr G 48:47 I love how he's brought in a reference to the Trojan War. Well, literally the Peloponnesian War was right there. Dr Rad 48:54 I think it's just you know that the Roman historians are leaning into the parallels to the Trojan War. They're making this their epic. There Dr G 49:02 is no woman and I'm disappointed because we don't get to talk about women in ancient Rome enough right now. That's true. Dr Rad 49:10 That teasing us seven times strategy seven times he has started a war. Oh, we're actually in counting will Appius Claudius Okay, all right. Yeah. They never mean it when they forged truces clearly, because otherwise, why would they that multiple wars. Yeah, Dr G 49:29 I mean, the six other wars explains that. Dr Rad 49:31 They keep invading Roman territory. They keep writing Roman fields rude. They was behind the betrayal of Fidenae. And the Roman settlers who were killed there and the murder of the Roman and voice Oh, yes, we're going all the way back there. Yeah, they tried to turn all of a true warrior against Rome. And to this day, they wants nothing more than for Rome, to be wiped from the face of the earth. Well, they only just recently after all, were rude to the Roman ambassadors. Ambassadors don't know why but in in in there and threaten them with death. Clearly Dr G 50:12 also rude. Yeah, clearly. Yeah, Dr Rad 50:15 right we should be giving 110% When fighting such utter bastards, they is in a vulnerable spot room needs to take advantage of this, they're surrounded Dr. G, now is the time they've not been able to harvest or farm because after all, this whole situation has been going on for a while now. So if room withdraws, of course, Veii will just kind of go back to plundering Roman territory because they need the resources. So Rome would not really get out of a war if they backed off now, but rather would find war moved into their own territory. Dr G 50:56 Now, for all the Appius Claudius actually kind of is is a terrible human. Yeah, Dr Rad 51:01 he makes some good points there that that's a good point. And he also points out, how would the soldiers feel about this situation? After all the siege stuff they've built after all the defences, so much effort? Are they just going to leave all of that behind until the next season? Which makes me think that, you know, we were talking about before that it must be like, close today, and this stuff isn't really at risk if they leave? I Dr G 51:25 think so. Like they've set up some equipment already, I think, yeah. Yeah. That would be my assumption. And if they've already started a siege process, yeah. Then they would have set up some land works for that. Exactly. Dr Rad 51:38 Yeah. Apologies to all the military historians out there. I know that we don't do a great job. Mind you, maybe Livy could do better do? Well, Dr G 51:47 I think this is the thing is that we're reading Livy, Livy has whatever extensive knowledge that he might have about certain areas, but I'm not sure that military matters unnecessarily. He's strong suit. And also, as an annalistic. Historian, he does tend to story eyes. That's true. That's true. I mean, that's not really word. But you know what I mean, Storify. The military encounters in such a way that you don't seem to have a sense of confidence about where things were anyway, necessarily, Dr Rad 52:17 history, this is true. He has given me no geographic markets. So in other words, the soldiers would be upset because they've gone through all this effort constructing all this stuff, and they're just gonna have to leave it there. And then do all that hard work all over again. Next season, why not just stay in place and push on until it's all over? And what else might a delay lead to? Right now, the Etruscans not willing to help Veii. But what if their feelings change over time? The trust can so mad right now about that whole anonymous King issue. But what if negotiations change that down the road, there were a lot of things to consider, and a lot of potential repercussions people. The tribune of the plebs are just being weak. It's like dealing with a sick person who needs a strict routine in order to get better. But the tribune of the plebs, they want you to follow a path where you're just going to make your illness worse, and lasts longer, and perhaps make it more serious by giving in to requests for food and drink, when clearly what you need is nothing, no sustenance do not feed this problem. He's not done yet. Dr G 53:32 Like always building up to something maybe Dr Rad 53:37 even putting aside the actual war, it is important for Roman soldiers to get used to persevering to sticking around until the job is done. And not leaving when victory is close. Just because you're off the clock. Dr G 53:52 You guys haven't been trying hard enough. Dr Rad 53:55 Well, he's saying, Are you suggesting that the Roman soldiers are not tough enough to endure winter? I think you'll find that they are. The Romans are the toughest. The soldiers would also be embarrassed to find that people thought they were so weak, they couldn't handle a little snow. Room also needs to consider its wider reputation. Oh, yeah, here we go. If they become known as those people who weren't see a siege through well, they're hardly scary. Dr G 54:30 It's just going to encourage the Volscii. Yeah, and the Aequians and the Sabines. Yeah. And anybody else who's ever had a problem? Dr Rad 54:39 Exactly. So the tribune of the plebs. If you Look at it from this perspective, Dr. G and I am looking at from Appius Claudius perspective, are really on the side of the enemies of Rome. They want to throw they have a lifeline here that people have they would be thrilled to hear of internal problems. was in Rome and in its army, they right now seems unified, you know, in its own little way. After all, they even have a king. Don't worry about even breaking a sweat. And that's without help from the Etruscans may remind you one small. Normally, Romans who run away from battle would be beaten to death with a cudgel. But the Romans are so used to hearing outrageous things from the tribune of the plebs that they are thinking about this possibility, even though technically it's about betraying room. The tribune of the plebs only need to take that final step and basically poison the army and get them to turn on their commanders. Wow. Yeah. That's, that's it. That's the next this is the article. They're gonna go to the army. They're going to turn them against the commander. So that's the way this is headed. Dr G 55:54 Okay, so this is some strong rhetoric coming through from Appius. Claudius. Yeah. Not only are the tribune of the plebs, obstructive, but they are now enemies of the state. They are hostis. Absolutely. In the Latin way of talking about these things. Intense. Yep. Liberty Dr Rad 56:13 in Rome. Dr. G, clearly means that there is no respect no respect at all, not for the Senate, not for the magistrates, not for the laws, not for ancestral customs, not for institutions of the Senate, or military discipline. This is where it's led us. It's madness. I tell you madness. Dr G 56:35 You might as well fold up shop and I will just die right here because it would be a faster way to go than the slow death that they're setting us Dr Rad 56:43 up for. Yeah. Have you relieved to hear that Appius Claudius is finally done. Dr G 56:49 In the back corner of the forum, a whole bunch of patricians are being like (clapping) and tribunes of the plebs after one side being like, Dr Rad 56:59 exactly. Now, all of this rhetoric all of these points, which we admit not all are bad. Some have some logic to them, but some of them whoo boy. Some Dr G 57:08 of them are very strong appeals to emotion. Yeah. Dr Rad 57:12 He is doing well, though, against the tribunes of the playoffs. Okay. He's his speech is obviously quite persuasive. Dr G 57:23 To patricians, all right. Dr Rad 57:26 Well, this is the thing. The speech was probably that speech was probably given in the Senate, I would say, but we get the feeling that he's giving similar types of speeches to anyone who will listen but anyway, he's doing quite well. He's, I think, causing definitely enough confusion that the plebeians are like, hang on a second. Wait a minute. Wait, just a cotton-picking second. And then something went wrong at Veii. Oh, yeah. So as we know, there is nothing that brings the Roman people together more than when they're facing an external enemy. This is pretty much what happens. This gives Appius the edge over the tribune of the plebs, and like his documents, and that sort of thing, because something goes wrong on the very front. And the patricians and plebeians start to be more unified and their purpose because they understand that we need they need more energy at this siege. Allow me to tell you what was happening at Veii. So the soldiers had apparently pushed forward the terraces towards the town. Now I can only mean that this is some sort of siege equipment that is getting very close to Veii itself, Dr G 58:41 move the turret. Push the wooden rabbit further. Dr Rad 58:49 Yes, to the point where the mantles have this terraces practically touching the woods. Now, for anybody who's even familiar with like mediaeval siege warfare, I think you could kind of picture the kind of equipment that they are using here. It's the same kind of terminology you sometimes get coming through for like castles and the kind of siege equipment you get for that as well. And that's Mantlet. So basically designed to protect any attackers from projectiles that might be thrown at them. So let's get a little bit set, you know, come up in the middle. From like a death, it's hard to describe efficacy, just take my word for it. Okay, Dr G 59:21 so this is allowing the advancing force of the siege Yes, to go forward to go forward. Yeah, be somewhat protected, get a little bit closer and hopefully, do something that's going to disturb that wall or disturb the defenders on the wall. Dr Rad 59:37 Yeah. And they seem to be doing pretty well. Okay. However, the army focusing very much on building up their siege equipment. So you know, they're working hard constructing as much as possible during the day, but they neglected to watch them overnight. And then all of a sudden, very Roman seems really stupid. Maybe they thought they were too big. I don't know. But all All of a sudden one evening the people have a suddenly throw open the case a huge number. So just rush out with torches set fire. Yeah, set fires are all the siege equipment, and just in like an hour, all their work building up the terrorists and the magnets and all that kind of stuff went up in flames, which tells me that it was wooden or something. Plus Romans died trying to put the fire out. Oh, trying to save them. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Dr G 1:00:28 This is bad news. Yes. Dr Rad 1:00:30 And this is the news that really gives Appius the edge because obviously the Romans find out about this. Everyone feels very sad. The Senate is feeling very worried. They're like, what if we have to continue to deal with this, this questioning of the military pay? What if the tribune of the plebs decide to try and use this development to their advantage bragging that the you know, the war if it was all falling apart anyway, like, who knows what they're going to do with it? Suddenly, men in equestrian circles, but who did not have horses from the state? Dr G 1:01:05 Oh, Dr Rad 1:01:05 this specific group Dr G 1:01:06 very true equestrians that got their own horses. Yes. Dr Rad 1:01:10 came to the Senate. They had had a meeting, apparently, the meeting of the men who are equestrians but don't have horses from the state have their own horses, Dr G 1:01:20 these the Knights who say Ni, Dr Rad 1:01:23 they had talked and they decided they were going to volunteer to serve using their own horses. Well, that's very generous of those into chests, the Senate is overcome, and gives them an official vote of thanks. The people hear what is happening in the farm and the city of Rome, and they rushed to the Curia because the plebs don't want to be outdone by these jerks on horses, the infantry now want to do something special to and they declare, we will go anywhere, kill anyone, whatever you want, just tell us we'll do it. And if Veii is that location, well, then by God, we will stay at our person until that city is taken. They're Dr G 1:02:08 like the problematic second child who feels like they never really had enough of dad's love Dr Rad 1:02:13 Exactly. The Senate. I actually think this is probably a high point, I don't think they've ever been so ridiculously happy that they've got people throwing military service and saying we'll do whatever it takes whatever you want. They were so happy that it couldn't even just be taken care of with like a formal vote of thanks. They did not formally call the plebs into the Curia to hear their response. Instead, the senators overflowed onto the steps outside the Curia. They're going into the Dr G 1:02:46 street doctor. They're thanking them in person. Each Dr Rad 1:02:50 Senator personally called out or signed to the people how happy they were get out the party poppers stone for a celebration. The general message of the senators is that room was a blessed place. And because of the kinds of people that live there, they were going to live forever. No one was ever going to be ruined because they were unified. They were getting along the Senate, just lovely equestrians, the Senate has lots of opinions. The Senate has left this day. You knew what you have outdone even us the patricians for being awesome, sweet, kind and well intentioned, because I'm happy. And basically, this is where this all kind of starts to wrap up. For me. The patricians and the plebs all are out there, crying from happiness together until the Senate say this is really nice and all but like, time is money. Dr G 1:03:44 It's been nice at all. I've just got this vision of senators, like doing slightly awkward hugs of plebeians. Kind of like I don't know when you love to wash. Yeah, Dr Rad 1:03:53 well, like just like getting out like a finger like an index finger and like poking them on the forehead and be like, BOOP. Dr G 1:03:59 you're so cute. Dr Rad 1:04:03 So what this means structure chain, and this is how four three kind of wraps up for me. The military tribunes, obviously, you need to hold a formal assembly to just thank everyone and tell them that the Senate will forever remember and treasure, this display of loyalty to the state. And they voted that all of these new volunteers who are not technically required to serve at this point should be paid. Dr G 1:04:28 Oh my God, Dr Rad 1:04:29 I know. And the equestrians were also granted money allowances making this the first time that the cavalry began to serve on their own horses but received money from the state for their expenses. It's like an expense account kind of thing, you know, reimbursing them for that kind of stuff. So these new volunteers they went today. They were on such a high that not only did they very quickly rebuild what had been lost, but they built even more. So the Roman They were pumping out the provisions with so much enthusiasm. It was scary because the Romans back home. After seeing everything that's been happening, they wanted to take just the best asbestos care ever have the best asbestos army that ever lived. The end. Dr G 1:05:16 Wow. Okay, so some some queries. And so when we're talking about building siege equipment, yeah, in this period, yeah. This is vast amounts of manual labour, Dr Rad 1:05:30 you underestimate how much happiness can help. Dr G 1:05:34 But even in the original compliment of the siege equipment that they're trying to put together. Yeah, living makes it sound like there's quite a lot. All right, like there's substantial fires, people die and trying to put out those fires to save that equipment. Yeah, so you have to keep in mind that we're talking about cutting down trees. Right, that's labour, turning it into things that's labour, making sure that it really works. Turning trees into things, I think that I made the Siege Tower completely out of wood. Incredible. All it will take is one fiery arrow disaster. And all of that is happening. So they denuding parts of the landscape in the area, Dr Rad 1:06:14 which I do not care for. No. Well, Dr G 1:06:17 I mean, it's necessary. It's to be expected. There's lots of forest, I would assume much more in Italy, then than there is now. But the sheer manpower required for all of that is phenomenal. So the idea that happiness would replace all of that lost equipment within the year. It's Dr Rad 1:06:36 not just happiness, it's tears of joy and song. Dr G 1:06:41 They sang well, they work because I'm happy. Look, I understand that there was some joy, but the senators themselves aren't doing any of the work. It's all the volunteers. So the organisation of the manpower is substantial. Yeah. You think that the logistics of that getting them all out there getting that work done building rebuilding everything, essentially, yeah, turning up to that encampment for the first moment to realise that you're looking at a Bert field, essentially, of the things that used to exist. Like, this is tough work. I Dr Rad 1:07:15 think getting caught up on technicality. Dr G 1:07:18 I'm just trying to make this. Give it a sense of maybe if this is real. Okay, let's say where we're in a period of time where people are doing this kind of stuff. Whoa, what is Dr Rad 1:07:29 If it's real? If it's real? I didn't just spend the last hour talking to you on the assumption this was fiction! Dr G 1:07:34 Well, I know. And in the sense that this is a historical podcast, yeah. Obviously, something happened in the past. Was it this? I have some questions? Anyway, Look, Dr Rad 1:07:46 to be fair, okay. And this is where I'm going to let you off the hook a little bit. I just enjoyed watching you try and put it together. He doesn't actually give me a timeframe. Okay. So when he says that this is what happened, he may not have meant it happened all in this one year, he might have meant that this is something that because of what happened in this year, this is what was possible. So this is what the Romans will achieve. Eventually. All right. Dr G 1:08:11 I think this dovetails nicely into the small amounts of source material I currently have available. Dr Rad 1:08:17 I hope it's another long speech from Appius Claudius, Dr G 1:08:20 certainly not. I can reassure you on that excellent. I have died or a stimulus who gives us a few of the characters and military tribunes. Okay, get some of the names, right doesn't get the number, right. That's fine. Dr Rad 1:08:34 Well, I don't know that we can say anybody like me, Dr G 1:08:37 but then we also have this side quest, if you like, of what is happening with Camillus Dr Rad 1:08:45 Ah, yes. Oddly, doesn't doesn't get mentioned in Livy. Dr G 1:08:49 at all. And for me, this was the most exciting part of this year because we have somebody mentioned who's going to become really quite significant. So yeah, I'm not gonna give the game away about Dr Rad 1:09:00 why but he's definitely like up there and like a career leanness kind of level. Yeah, Dr G 1:09:04 he's gonna Yeah, watch this space. Camillus is gonna be a thing. Yeah. So Camillus comes to us for the first time. So I'm gonna start off with things that I like to do, which is delving into the name. Yes, please do. So his full name, as far as we understand it is Marcus Furius, son of Lucius Spurius, grandson of Spurius Camillus. Which means that his father was Lucius Furius. And his grandfather was Spurius Furius. Yeah, Dr Rad 1:09:37 The T shirt paid off. Dr G 1:09:40 Never let it be forgotten that we were there first, Spurius Furius. Yeah. So there were there are a couple of Spurius Furii out there, yeah. So it's important to you know, hone in on who was who? Yes. And really we're talking about the father being likely to have been Lucius Furius Medullinus, okay, so he was a military tribune with consular power in 432 it's gonna tear Dr Rad 1:10:06 I recognise that name so always makes me think of gold medals. He's Dr G 1:10:10 won a lot of them. He has also in 425, and 420. So a relatively substantial career in that top job shop. And then we've got the grandfather Spurius Furius Medullinus Furus. Ooh, yeah, that's quite an name. And if it's this guy, he was the consul in 464 and the suffect in 453. So we've got this lovely family lineage that relates to the Furii and particularly our favourite Spurius Furius, who have come up in previous episodes, obviously. And then we have this guy Camillus, who's related into this group. Yeah. Not the first son. He's prime and Marcus, his father's name is Lucius. So he's presumably a second or third or fourth child, not the first one, always called the first one after yourself in that really weird Roman way. So we've got that. And then we have Plutarch's the Life of Camillus. Right, which is thematic in its nature. So I get very little about 403 specifically, I would say it should be here. It's a big year, clearly, but I mean, commercially, Dr Rad 1:11:23 because of big speech. Mostly it is a speech. Dr G 1:11:27 But, uh, let us give you a bit of a taste of things to come with Camillus through Plutarch. So he seems to be an incredible figure. And he wins many and great successes. Dr Rad 1:11:43 I expect nothing less from a Furii Dr G 1:11:45 Five times he will be chosen dictator. Wow. Four times he will celebrate a triumph. That's pretty good odds. And he will also become known as the second founder of Rome. Dr Rad 1:11:59 Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. Haven't we already had a guy? Dr G 1:12:04 That'd be like that. You arguing with poor talk right now? I have it. Dr Rad 1:12:12 Apologies, please check. Dr G 1:12:13 So these are the sorts of things to keep in mind. We've got this sort of foreshadowing of of this great Camillus figure. And it's not at all clear about 403 Except that he's listed as the sensor. Yes, some materials. Dr Rad 1:12:32 Ah, yes. And this is where attacks comes in, does it not? Dr G 1:12:37 Well, this is where we get some odd things. So this idea of like, what is this censorship? And what is going on with that? Dr Rad 1:12:48 profound questions all Yeah. And Dr G 1:12:51 apparently the the ideas that are connected to the censorship, forcing unmarried people to get married Dr Rad 1:13:01 or attend attacks them? Well, no, wait for it. Okay. No, no, Dr G 1:13:04 don't jump ahead like that. Okay. So the unmarried need to get their marriage on? Uh huh. And apparently this is because there's been so many wars and Rome has lost so many good men. Well, yeah, there was a lot of widows and widowers around, Dr Rad 1:13:19 you might say, actually, that all we need is a few good men. Dr G 1:13:26 Indeed, and Camilla is going to make sure it happens because there needs to be more children. Obviously, Rome cannot succeed if it does not reproduce. It needs its own men. needs little baby Romans a Dr Rad 1:13:38 battlefield of a woman. It's not yes to give birth in a time with new medicine. Yeah. Dr G 1:13:44 And you can imagine, you know, the women are sitting around being like, well, I lost Marcus last year. And then this year, it doesn't Look like Lucius is gonna make it through. I've Dr Rad 1:13:55 godammn sandals, who just offer no protection against the cold. Dr G 1:14:00 He came back and he didn't have any toes. What Dr Rad 1:14:03 am I gonna do with this sweater? It ain't gonna fit my next husband? Dr G 1:14:08 I just don't know Cecilia. I just don't know if I can keep getting married like this. I frankly, sick Dr Rad 1:14:16 of this all these letters Dr G 1:14:20 So, you know, it's tough out there for Roman women in general. And you know, this now new requirement, apparently you because you gotta get married. Right. So that's it. And then the other thing that seems to be associated with the censorship, which seems particularly cruel, is the taxation on orphans. Dr Rad 1:14:38 I was waiting to say much. Dr G 1:14:41 Because guess what orphans? Yeah, you have not suffered enough in this life having lost your parents. In fact, there needs to be a specific orphan tax because if you don't pay your way, no one will. Dr Rad 1:14:56 I'm presuming this is to fund the pay and also the equestrian stipend. But is this because there are so many orphans. Now, it Dr G 1:15:07 seems to be the case that the the one to do with the unmarried people is like, right, you've got to reproduce. And the one with the orphans is you were brought into this world you weren't given life. You must continue on, and you must stay away. Yeah. And just because your relatives aren't around to do the good job of paying the tax that the state needs doesn't mean you get away with Dr Rad 1:15:28 it. Toddlers, this is not a state where you get a free ride. Yeah, exactly. Dr G 1:15:33 Yeah, you can pay in grain. That's fine. You must pay. Wow, Dr Rad 1:15:38 ha, I saw that. And I was like, that must be wrong. But I knew that you were going to be looking into it sounds like I'm going to ignore it. Because it just seems weird and cruel. Dr G 1:15:48 It does seem weird. And I don't fully understand it. And I feel like maybe I'll source material hasn't quite wrapped its head around why that would be useful or good or necessary. Certainly with the unmarried, Roman population. They're kind of like you're alive and you have a duty to create life. That's kind of why you're alive. So it's a very sort of, like, evolutionary determinist perspective being like, Wait, you're here. You better get on with it. Yes, that's what you're here to do. Dr Rad 1:16:14 You're here. You're not queer. Get used to it. Yeah, Dr G 1:16:15 you must. And you shall, and we will find a way to make you married. Yeah. And then the orphan stuff? I don't know, that's just a bit baffling. Dr Rad 1:16:23 Is that a way of forcing people to adopt the orphans? Dr G 1:16:28 I don't know. The tax seems to fall upon the orphan themselves? I don't know. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I don't understand wandering up to adults being like, Please adopt me. For the tags, and what happens to an orphan if you can't afford to pay the tag? I Dr Rad 1:16:44 know, it's so strange. Sorry, Camillus, covering himself with Real Glory with that policy. Yeah. So Dr G 1:16:51 I can't wait to see what he does next. Dr Rad 1:16:53 I mean, the idea that this might be slightly anachronistic somehow or something like that, it kind of makes sense, because obviously, some of the details that have been brought up in my account, I've definitely questioned as maybe being anachronistic, like the idea that there was that specific punishment for Roman men who were cowardly in battle, you know, the idea that they got beaten with a casual, like some sort of penalty or something. We're not really short, like, it is true. The Romans did take military discipline seriously, particularly later on, which is where we have records of it, you know, coming through sources like I believe Cicero, I believe there are references and Tacitus for those particulars. Polybius. And that sort of thing to this sort of idea that the command might somehow indicate this person has to be set upon beaten. Yeah, and that sort of thing. But we don't know how far it goes back. And certainly I think the question is, does it get back this one? And as as often is the case? The answer is generally no. Well, we don't know. We don't know. Probably not. Just because as we've talked about numerous times with the military pay aspects, we just don't really show how formal any of this stuff is. So the idea that you would have, I mean, you don't have a formal standing army. I mean, sure. This is meant to be the rumblings of that starting, but you don't have it. This is just a special occasion kind of thing. Surprise. So the idea that you would have formal punishments for this kind of thing is a bit iffy. I mean, it's like it's not out of the question, obviously, because Rome is at war a lot. So maybe there are penalties. But the idea that this was like some sort of official accepted punishment, that's what people are questioning. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. And certainly, definitely, this idea of equestrians receiving some sort of reimbursement or pay and that sort of thing, which again, does happen later. There are some issues that we will talk about. I mean, it actually gets, I think, quite technical, the whole idea of the cavalry. This doesn't seem likely for this time period, as we've talked about, and this whole military pay thing. And certainly, these taxes, I think are meant to be feeding into this, but so none of it kind of adds up. Yeah, we've Dr G 1:19:17 got more questions than answers, another classic partial historians. Dr Rad 1:19:23 All we can say is unlikely. I mean, it's certainly all of these things will be introduced, for sure. There definitely will be because obviously the equestrians are essentially becoming like the cavalry. Right. Dr G 1:19:37 And I think there's that thing where it's like stuff has to be mentioned for the first time at some point. Sure. Yeah. It doesn't necessarily mean it's the first time that it becomes regular rise. Dr Rad 1:19:49 Yeah. And the cavalry when they were getting paid, did get paid more because they do have more expenses, I guess, and they are also looked at as being pretty special. But yeah, the idea that Rome has a specific cavalry and a specific infantry and they're each trying to outdo each other is the Senate. I vote no. Yeah, it all seems a little a little immature. A little bit early than Yes. At least trying to figure out where the money's coming from. Dr G 1:20:20 Orphans. Yeah, exactly. We're gonna fund the whole thing on orphan Dr Rad 1:20:24 lately logical to pay for rich people's horses. Putting a tax on it. Just when you don't room couldn't get any more conservative. Dr G 1:20:31 Weird. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Dr Rad 1:20:35 Okay. But that's I think that is all I have. Dr G 1:20:39 Okay, in which case, I think it's time for the partial pick. Dr Rad 1:20:44 I'm looking forward to this. All right, Dr. G, tell us what the Partial Pick is all about? Dr G 1:20:52 Well, there are 50 Roman Eagles up for grabs, across five categories Ding Ding!. And so we will see how the Romans score against those categories, the first category being military clout. Dr Rad 1:21:07 Okay, I feel like there's some good and some bad, they are besieging. But then their stuff gets burnt. Dr G 1:21:15 It was all going great where they got Whoa, and they Dr Rad 1:21:19 get more reinforcements. And they seem to be more numerous and better than ever before. And morale is high. So I don't know how you want to take that. Dr G 1:21:25 Um, I mean, on the balance five, okay. Although Dr Rad 1:21:29 I will just point out that you gave them a six are actually conquering something last week. I feel like maybe, maybe a four, you know, like, like, you know, like they're asking a Dr G 1:21:41 consistency from me that I don't possess, I might vote solely on my feelings. Dr Rad 1:21:46 Oh, I think that's clear. All right. Okay. Well, let's maybe say for Shall we like, because like, it's, you know, it's consistent. I Dr G 1:21:53 can go lower? No, Dr Rad 1:21:56 that's ageing. And they haven't been technically defeated. They just lost some siege equipment. And seemingly some people, you know, they Dr G 1:22:02 lost some people burnt to death. Well, yeah. But that Dr Rad 1:22:05 was to see the siege equipment wasn't in warfare, per se. Dr G 1:22:09 I mean, you telling me that saving the siege equipment during an act of war is not somehow part of warfare. Dr Rad 1:22:15 It's not like actual battley kind of stuff, you know? Oh, in my we're gonna disagree on so much. Before moving on. Dr G 1:22:26 The second category is diplomacy. Well, Dr Rad 1:22:29 no, no, definitely no diplomacy anywhere. I mean, okay. If we say internally, I guess the fact that our days Dr G 1:22:39 I don't think we we've agreed that diplomacy is not an internal. I Dr Rad 1:22:43 was gonna say, I guess if you were saying internal, there's like, a bit of speechifying going on, but I don't feel like it's particularly diplomatic, because it's Appius. Claudius, you Dr G 1:22:51 know, diplomacy. They don't talk to me. They don't try to talk down the new anonymous King, nothing like that. They don't send more ambassadors. It's no. I don't know what the other six or seven or eight or nine, whatever military tributes are doing. Not talking to anybody being Dr Rad 1:23:08 scattered. Hide behind a different bush. Dr G 1:23:13 The category is expansion. Dr Rad 1:23:15 Yeah. Dr G 1:23:17 That's a zero. They're trying very hard. But I would love to have a love to have not happening now. The fourth category is weird to us. Okay. Dr Rad 1:23:29 I really hate to say this strategy, but I feel that by Roman standards, maybe we're seeing a little bit of that from Appius Claudius. You Dr G 1:23:38 think so? I mean, he's doing some pretty big speechifying. It's not military, though. We haven't really seen that for a while, but it's not like he's demonstrating classic Roman manliness. Dr Rad 1:23:50 I suppose. That's true. I guess he's just just playing classic Roman douchebaggery. I was mistaken. Yeah. You know, the Dr G 1:23:59 classic blinds, issue. Yeah, sort of focus on whatever. Dr Rad 1:24:04 He's rhetoric is impressive. But yeah, I don't know. I agree with you. It's not perhaps that impassioned. And it's Dr G 1:24:10 not like he sort of calls forth the idea of Roman masculinity being on the line here either. Like, Dr Rad 1:24:17 you know, he does talk about you know, like the masculinity of the soldiers. Yeah, you know, like being put into question how they feel if you feel like you're calling them a Blissey. I kind of like it. Well, Dr G 1:24:29 that's true. Yeah. But is it manly to call another Roman on manly? Well, Dr Rad 1:24:35 no, he's I think he's I think they are. He's suggesting that they are indeed, but that the tribunes are implying that they are somehow not man enough to take a by saying that they can't hack it in the winter that they're too, too pricy to hang out in some proper winter quarters. Dr G 1:24:52 I think where we might see what we're tourists, aside from potential for obvious quarters because I feel like that's kind of it is a bit which is we Yeah, it's the equestrians coming along and volunteering with their own horses. Oh, yeah. And then and then the plebeians coming along. Not to be outdone by that, yeah. Volunteering into a situation where clearly there's been a lot of tension about having people out there. Dr Rad 1:25:16 What else would make the senators shed a tear? Dr G 1:25:18 Virtus to us coming from below. Dr Rad 1:25:22 Sounds raunchy? Dr G 1:25:25 Is that your weird jokes? are you just happy to see? Dr Rad 1:25:30 Because if I'm a very man, I get turned on by that. All right. Dr G 1:25:33 I think that's definitely okay. Yeah, for sure. And maybe potentially higher, because we don't have to Yeah, this is the moment that seems to bring a very specific class of equestrians out, that we've never really encountered before. Dr Rad 1:25:49 That's right. The equestrians who are technically part of that order, but have their own horses but the state don't pay for them yet, but they will pay for them after Dr G 1:25:55 this. That club that club. Yeah, very specific club. Dr Rad 1:25:59 It's very exclusive. Maybe Dr G 1:26:00 a sixth. Dr Rad 1:26:01 Okay. All right. And Dr G 1:26:03 our final category is the citizens score. I Dr Rad 1:26:07 am so torn on it. Dr G 1:26:08 It's a tough time. Yeah, Dr Rad 1:26:09 they are so clearly being manipulated, again. And they seem to be standing up for themselves at first. And we do have some good Tribune action happening here like the tribunes make some solid points. Mostly, I told you so. But the fact that they are nameless, we don't even know how many there are. They're not given a direct speech. Dr G 1:26:29 And also, their points become completely ineffectual. Yeah, exactly. Dr Rad 1:26:33 As soon as things start to turn at bay, people are just too concerned about what's happening. Dr G 1:26:40 So it's not great, because, yes, there is the potential for pay. It has been suggested that that's about to continue for the overwintering. But on the other hand, this seizure is not going well so far. And a whole bunch of them seem to have died trying to save the siege equipment in unruly fire, and Dr Rad 1:26:56 the rest of them have gone off to serve, which okay, yes, they're getting paid. But they could be stuck there for a while. We don't know how long are they going to be there Dr G 1:27:04 also the orphan tax, not great. Dr Rad 1:27:08 sorrowfully. Dr G 1:27:10 And also being told that you just have to remarry all the time. Just keep going, guys. I mean, by why a modern standard that's a bit harsh by Roman standard, that's probably people are like, they're like, Oh, well, I kind of expected that. But Dr Rad 1:27:23 it's really just legislating what people expected of you anyway. Yes, Dr G 1:27:26 yeah. Annoying. But yeah, that will Yeah. Oh, Dr Rad 1:27:29 wow. Okay, so I feel like it's maybe a one because the tribunes tried. Oh, yeah. And that's, that's all that happened. Yeah. Well, let's face it, the plebeians ,bless their little cotton socks, which hopefully they're wearing in their winter quarters under their sandals. They seem very happy to be part of this movement to dedicate themselves in this way. You know, they seem to have been completely won over by everything's happening, the atmosphere, the vibe, if you will. So I feel like they're kind of happy. Even sickly that they shouldn't. Dr G 1:28:08 As long as they're happy. We cannot judge them for their own happy. Exactly. Dr Rad 1:28:11 Yeah. So Look, I feel like it has to be a one. Yeah, Dr G 1:28:14 I don't think that condition is great. So what it is all right. Dr Rad 1:28:18 That's me instructed me that we have a grand total of 11, which I actually I was expecting more honestly, just goes to show rhetoric it blindsides you, I thought it was going to be much higher, but turns out when all you have is a winker going on and on and on about conservative values. Don't get high scores. Dr G 1:28:38 Yeah, Look, I'm like can it be a high school when there's an obvious Claudius in the mix? Dr Rad 1:28:44 But you know, and I am pleased about the fact that I am switching douchebag for wanker occasionally now. That's new. That's gonna be a new feature. Yeah, Dr G 1:28:52 yeah, Look, I mean, it's been a decade it's time to introduce the Dr Rad 1:28:57 new century is looming. Oh. Well, thank you very much for tolerating.Appius Claudius' speech Transcribed by https://otter.ai