Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Kim Goldman Shares All

Transcript

Kim Goldman Shares All · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Christmas shopping has already started in our house. My daughter
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: is so organised, already planning Christmas gifts from Macaulay. Hair
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: care for her aunt and a fab fragrance for her bestie.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: But the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I'm
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: an early bird, buying one present a week from now
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: till Christmas, which makes budgeting less stressful. I can buy
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: in-store or online from Macaulay.ie for home delivery or free
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: click and collect.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: So easy.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Gifts they'll cherish at prices you'll love.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoop.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: When you're on the road, when you're on the go,
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: Juicy Scoop is the show to know. She talks Hollywood
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: tales for real life. Mr. Segment Serial Data and Serial Sisters.
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: You'll be addicted and addicted.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Listen in, listen up.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Woo, woo. Heather MacDonald.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: Juicy Scoop. Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Hope you're
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: having the best time ever. I know I am. Remember
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: you guys, go to heathermcdonald.net. That's where you're gonna join
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: my Patreon every Friday and also special juice I've been
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: dropping all month. So make sure you get on that.
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: And of course, go there for my dates because right
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: around the corner this weekend, I will be in San Diego,
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: July 27th with the hilarious Julie Goldman. I'm so excited
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: to be there. looking cute, laughing with you guys for
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  Speaker 3: a fabulous Juicy Scoop experience. That is at heathermcdonald.net. Now
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: for this interview, I wanted to bring one back up
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: that you guys have talked over and over about. Let's
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  Speaker 3: listen to it again.
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  Speaker 2: Here we go.
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  Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Juicy Scoop. Well, I am very
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  Speaker 3: excited for this guest because she has a hit podcast,
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: which was done so well, which I didn't listen to
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: all of it, but I've listened to a lot of it.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: It's Confronting OJ, Kim Goldman, sister of Ron Goldman. And
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I just feel like there's, I can't believe.
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  Speaker 2: This is the first time I'm meeting you.
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  Speaker 3: I know.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Because there's so much connection.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: And I'm doing your incredible charity this Thursday, which this
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  Speaker 3: will air Thursday. So if you're listening to this and
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: you're anywhere near the Santa Clarita, Valencia area, And you'd
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: love to see a wonderful comedy show.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: I will be there performing.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: Let's go down. Laurie Kilmartin has been on my show,
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: which people love her.
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  Speaker 2: Steve Simone and Jimmy Schubert.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, he's hilarious. They're both.
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  Speaker 2: Everyone's hilarious.
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  Speaker 3: And you were just telling me what the it's a nonprofit,
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  Speaker 3: what the money goes to.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 4: So the Youth Project, we've been open since 2000. And
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  Speaker 4: we are active on all of the junior high and
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  Speaker 4: high school campuses out in Santa Clarita.
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  Speaker 2: And we provide free.
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  Speaker 4: Mental health to teens, so kids that are dealing with
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  Speaker 4: depression and suicide, substance abuse, domestic violence, sexual assault. I mean,
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  Speaker 4: all the stuff that, if we're honest, is adults that
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  Speaker 4: we dealt with when we were kids. Our kids are
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  Speaker 4: dealing with that, and so we do one-on-one and support groups.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it's just so important, because I don't think there's,
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  Speaker 3: you know, it's just such a tragedy when someone is
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  Speaker 3: not aware that their child is hurting, and it gets
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  Speaker 3: to the point where they hurt themselves, and So that's wonderful.
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  Speaker 3: That's great.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, being both parents, you know, you're acutely aware
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  Speaker 4: of what's going on, hopefully. And if you're not, there's
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  Speaker 4: other people that can help, too. And I think there's
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  Speaker 4: no shame in asking. One of the things that we
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  Speaker 4: see a lot is if our adults can't cope, our
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  Speaker 4: kids can't. And so I bypass the parents sometimes because
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  Speaker 4: they're not astute enough to realize that they might be struggling.
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  Speaker 4: So we focus on the kids. And I love that
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  Speaker 4: they come in wanting help on their own volition.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, that's amazing. That's awesome.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks.
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  Speaker 3: So let me just tell you about, first of all,
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  Speaker 3: I was living in Brentwood when the murder happened.
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  Speaker 2: I lived right off of Granville.
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  Speaker 3: I eventually rented a house that was on the corner
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  Speaker 3: of Dorothy and Bundy like a year and a half
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  Speaker 3: later in which people constantly came and took photos.
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  Speaker 2: I hung out at Mazaluna.
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  Speaker 3: I knew the one other waiter that would often be
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  Speaker 3: interviewed that had like the beard.
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  Speaker 2: Is it Stuart Tanner?
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  Speaker 1: No.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I would see Nicole in her Ferrari late for a date.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I was just.
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  Speaker 2: Did you know my brother?
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  Speaker 3: I did not know your brother, but I remember going
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  Speaker 3: to Cheesecake Factory and seeing like the hot guy because
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  Speaker 3: at the Cheesecake Factory, which is in Brentwood, they had
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  Speaker 3: this menu with a lot of ads and.
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  Speaker 2: He was a model and he was modeling a suit.
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  Speaker 5: Right.
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  Speaker 3: And so I remember the whole thing and being like, oh,
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  Speaker 3: my God. And I remember hearing about it. And being like, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I think I recognize him. I think, you know, from
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: seeing around, because that Starbucks right there was where I
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  Speaker 3: went all the time. And it was, like, people like
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  Speaker 3: my age and your brother's age, like, in our early 20s.
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  Speaker 3: And then there were these, like, hot moms that were, like,
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  Speaker 3: divorced moms, like the Faye Resnicks. And, you know, I
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  Speaker 3: would see this. And I would, like, invite some of
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: those moms to my stand-up shows. Like, it was kind
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: of an internet. Like, it kind of an internet. So
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: I was sort of obsessed with. you know, with my
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: God and it's right here. And, um, and then of course,
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: as the, as the trial and then the evidence and
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  Speaker 3: everything went on, it was, you know, riveting like anybody else.
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  Speaker 2: And so I.
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  Speaker 3: Was working in real estate with my parents and we'd
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  Speaker 3: work out of the house and thank God my parents
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  Speaker 3: were as obsessed because we watched the trial every single day.
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  Speaker 2: And, I mean, I have so many questions for you.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, my first question is, what was it like
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  Speaker 3: to wake up every day and go to that courthouse?
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  Speaker 3: Every time I watch a Dateland or anything, I'm like,
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  Speaker 3: what is that like where that's your routine for months?
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  Speaker 3: What do you wear? What are you eating? Do you
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  Speaker 3: eat the same thing every day? Do you pack your
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  Speaker 3: own lunch?
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  Speaker 6: Do you walk?
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  Speaker 2: Did you go into the bathroom and run into OJ's
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  Speaker 2: adult daughter?
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  Speaker 3: That's what I want. I have so many questions, but
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  Speaker 3: that was just one of your experience watching you, you
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  Speaker 3: being just a couple years younger than I am, when
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  Speaker 3: I was watching it going, How is this girl ever
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  Speaker 3: going to, like, have a life after this?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I don't have an answer to the second part.
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  Speaker 2: I can tell you that, you know, I was living in.
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: San Francisco in my last semester of school for psychology.
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  Speaker 4: I was working at Wells Fargo. I had an internship
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  Speaker 4: at a psychiatric hospital. I was, quote, unquote, in love
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  Speaker 4: and in a relationship. When my brother died, I moved home.
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  Speaker 4: I really had nothing except my suitcase and my cat.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, I left all my belongings in San Francisco.
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  Speaker 3: And so did you get the news? Did they, did
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  Speaker 3: your dad have to call you in San Francisco?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. I was, um, I was at work that day
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  Speaker 4: and my shift was ending at whatever, six o'clock. Um,
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  Speaker 4: and I normally took the bus or the Muni home. Um,
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  Speaker 4: my girlfriend Amy drove me. Um, and so I walked
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  Speaker 4: in the house around six 30 and my boyfriend at
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  Speaker 4: the time, Joe was standing there and yelling at me
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  Speaker 4: when I yelling, he was urging me strongly to call
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  Speaker 4: my dad because my dad had called and you know,
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  Speaker 4: he knew my dad, my dad found out around five o'clock. Um,
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  Speaker 4: my brother was identified earlier in the day, but they
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  Speaker 4: didn't make a notification to our family because no one
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  Speaker 4: was home. And so it was the coroner, Claudia Ratcliffe,
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  Speaker 4: that finally got a hold of my stepmom because she
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  Speaker 4: finally answered the phone after Mezzaluna had been bugging us
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  Speaker 4: all day and told Patty, you know, did you hear
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  Speaker 4: the news? She said, no, I don't know what you're
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  Speaker 4: talking about. You didn't hear anything about Brentwood. I don't
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  Speaker 4: know what you're talking about. Do you know who Nicole
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  Speaker 4: Brown Simpson is? I don't know who you're talking about.
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  Speaker 4: And then she said the other victim was your son
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  Speaker 4: and Patty was so confused. And then my dad walked
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  Speaker 4: in the house at that exact moment that Patty was
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  Speaker 4: freaking out.
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  Speaker 2: And she yelled, Fred, you have to get on the phone.
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  Speaker 2: Something happened to Fred. I mean, to Ron. Same thing.
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  Speaker 4: Did you hear anything on the news? Well, my dad
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  Speaker 4: had been listening to the news all day. Cause he's
• 7:43
  Speaker 4: a salesman in LA. You spend a lot of time
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  Speaker 4: in your car.
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  Speaker 6: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Even just going to the grocery store. It's 20 minutes.
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  Speaker 4: So yeah, he was in the car and had been
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  Speaker 4: listening to talk radio all day. And so he heard
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  Speaker 4: all about the murders.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Because I remember hearing about it in the afternoon too.
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  Speaker 3: And they were, and I remember when they said, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it's OJ Simpson's ex wife. And I was like, Oh
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: my God, that's late for a date. That's that hot
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: blonde with like the perfect, like she was really physically fit.
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  Speaker 3: I remember seeing her back and being like, God, that,
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  Speaker 3: That chick works out. I'm like, why are these women
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: in better shape than us? That's what I was like.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: So I was like, oh, my God, this is so.
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: And it was around the corner from my house.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm like, wait, what?
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  Speaker 3: And I remember immediately thinking, even back then, husband did it. Like,
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  Speaker 3: what the hell, you know?
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: But we didn't. I mean, my dad, so when they
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: told my dad that it was his son, then within about.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: I don't know, 30, 45 seconds, basically. They released my
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  Speaker 2: brother's picture.
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  Speaker 4: And so my dad called me, and I obviously wasn't
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: home for about an hour and a half.
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  Speaker 2: And then I had seen a bit of it on
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: the news, but I didn't know what I was watching.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: And I hadn't paid any attention. And it wasn't really
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: anywhere on the news up in San Francisco the way
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: that apparently it was down here. So I packed a
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: bunch of crap in my bag, a bunch of underwear.
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: I always joke that I'd never been to a funeral.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: I didn't know what to wear. So my boyfriend was
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: walking behind me, like, fixing... everything in my bag because
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: I just kept throwing more underwear in. And he was like, okay,
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: let's put some pants in there. And, you know, he
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: was trying to help me prepare.
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  Speaker 2: I also always think about when I hear these tragedies, again, what.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: Is it like to be on the flight, to be
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: waiting at the airport to load? And this is what
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: you're doing. Like, I can't even imagine.
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: In San Francisco, so I flew out of Oakland. It
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: was the last flight of the night. We hopped in
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: the car and booked it to the airport because.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: We needed to get home. And I remember... Um, I
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: remember we parked the car.
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: And I was walking through the parking lot and there
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: was this, this gentleman that was, I don't know what
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: he was doing in the parking lot. He worked for
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: the airport and I was disheveled and like running.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: And he's like, man, he's like, slow down. Like, you know,
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  Speaker 2: just kind.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: He was like, just let me smell the roses kind
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: of a thing.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Like, there's no hurry. You'll make it. You'll be fine.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: And I was bawling.
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  Speaker 3: Did you say?
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: No, I just, I didn't say anything. I just, I
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: was so confused as to what was happening. And this is,
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: you know, just two hours later after I'd heard. And then,
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: you know, I get into the airport. I go through
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: the security thing and I take off my belt, my shoes.
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: I'm just undressing.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: I'm crying.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, it was just. And then we finally get
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: on the plane and I'm bawling. And then the flight attendant,
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: she said, are you okay? And I said, no, like I,
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: I just, I couldn't put a sentence together. Um, and,
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: and then we got off the flight, my boyfriend and I,
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: and you know, this was before nine 11.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: So your, your people could wait for you at the gate.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: And so I came down, it was like the longest,
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: you know, path to get to the, to the lobby
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: or whatever. And my dad.
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: Was standing there and then I just fell apart and
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: I wasn't expecting my dad to come.
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  Speaker 2: Um, he was going to send a family friend to
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: pick us up. And, um, so that was just a mess.
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: And then it got in the car and KFI was
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: on the radio and it said, you know, today's news,
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend were found slaughtered to
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: death in Brentwood.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: And that was the first time that I had heard it.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: To answer the rest of your question, going to court
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: all the time, it was my job. I mean, it
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: didn't feel like a job, but it was what I
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: committed to.
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  Speaker 3: How many years between the civil trial and then, of course,
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: you did the, how do you call it, the other trial?
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: So the criminal trial and the civil trial.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: Oh, sorry, the criminal trial and the civil trial. How
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: many years was that from the beginning, from the moment
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: you got the news to the moment that the civil
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: trial ended? Um.
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: Okay, so about four years, I'd say. I think the
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: civil case ended in 98, 97. I'd have to go
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: back and remember. Yeah, but I mean, that's amazing. And
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: it does, it becomes, you know, it was just where
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: I went. And so I didn't have a car, so
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: I relied on my stepmom to take me to court
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: or family friends.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: And would your stepmom also go there? Because we always
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: just saw you and your dad.
• 11:54
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: So my dad went as often as he could, but
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: he was, you know, a working dad. And he had,
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: you know, my stepmom had three kids. I mean, that
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: was my other question watching it. I'm like, what are
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: they living off of if the dad is here every day?
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: So my dad couldn't go every day. He had to
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: kind of pick and choose. And it was really hard
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: for my dad to be in there, so he would
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: get the debrief from me. And Patty went as often
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: as she could, but she had young kids in school.
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: How many days was the whole trial?
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: Like in court.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: It was nine and a half months. Of court dates.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: Of court dates. Well, yeah, of court dates. Of actual appearances.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I think 265 or 70 days of that was actual testimony. So,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: was the jury sequestered for 200 days? Yeah, 260 some
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: odd days, yeah.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Like, that is crazy.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and they complain about that, you know, I mean,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: in the podcast.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: In the podcast, you talk to one juror.
• 12:44
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: And, yeah, they were just dying to leave. They just
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: were like, just how, let's just fucking wrap this up. Yeah.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: And I, I got that sense from them early on too.
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: I mean, I, I remember, you know, I joke about it.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: I mean, we're raised to not judge people, you know,
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: not to judge people.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: You're not, you know, judge a book by its cover,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: but that's all you do when you're sitting in a
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: room of people and you're not, can't talk to them
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: and they can't. So I'm watching eye rules. I'm watching gasps.
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: I'm watching, you know, doodling and, and how focused they
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: are on the person on the stand or if they,
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: you know, looking around like, and I'm, I'm assessing what
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: does all that mean? And, You know, when Marsha and
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: Chris from the prosecution would come in, you know, they
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: would kind of look the other way or, you know,
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: and then when the defense team would come in, they'd,
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: you know, sit up in their seats.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, what does that mean?
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: And, I mean, it's terrible.
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: It's terrible because it goes against everything that I was
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: raised in terms of what you, you know, what you
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: assume about people and not to assume about people.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: And so I learned quickly that they just seemed detached
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: from the prosecution, which gave me worry.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. So I was talking to my sister, who
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: is a criminal defense attorney, that I was going to
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: see you today. And I go, do you have any
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: questions for her? And she's like, you know, now she's,
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: you know, a defense attorney, but she is like, there's
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: times when she's doing something and she's like, wow, I'm
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: impressed with the prosecution. Or was there any time where
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: you were like, you know, about the defense? Like, wow,
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: that's shit.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: There were a lot of, I don't, I can't tell
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: you exactly how many, but there were often times that
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: I'd think, Oh, that seems like that could be plausible.
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: And it starts to mess with that whole reasonable doubt.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: You know, and I'm like, God, if I'm questioning that,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: then the jury must be questioning that.
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: You know, and that can't be good. And, you know,
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: because of all the other evidence, it can't be this. But,
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: my God, my mind is starting to wonder if that's
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: a plausible, you know, solution or resolution to something. And
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: I was frustrated with myself for thinking that way.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: Yes. And I.
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: You know, I was 22 at the time. I'd never
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: been inside of a courtroom. I probably maybe got one
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: speeding ticket at that point. I just went to court
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: thinking this is where truth prevails. This is where you
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: go to be honorable and live with integrity.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: And so I didn't think that early on that what
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: the defense was doing was manipulating the law, being disrespectful.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: Right, which was basically the biggest thing was to try
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: to say that the cops and the evidence... they were
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: racially motivated to get this black man and plant evidence.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: And they were.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Allowed to do all that.
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: And I think I didn't expect that because I'm thinking, well,
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: if you don't have any proof, you can't just say
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: those things, but yes, you can, you can, because that
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: casts reasonable doubt. And that flies in the face of
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: reason for me, because that's not what the courtroom is
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: supposed to be about.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: It's supposed to be a search for the truth.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: And so I learned quickly, um, well, I tried to
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: learn quickly how to realign my thinking, but again, it
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: goes against everything that I was taught to believe in.
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: And so I was super frustrated because I would think
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: that your sister would say this too. You bend and
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: you push as far as you need to, to make
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: sure that your client has their fair day in court.
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: I think that this set of attorneys pushed far beyond
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: moral and ethical boundaries and guidelines, and they were well
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: within their authority to do that because they had a
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: judge that didn't take control of the courtroom. That's just
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: my take.
• 16:04
  Speaker 6: We all like to think we've got a good eye
• 16:06
  Speaker 6: for a winning move, but when it comes to property,
• 16:09
  Speaker 6: it's about seeing the bigger picture. More space, a shorter commute,
• 16:13
  Speaker 6: somewhere near the sea. On daft.ie, you can explore standout
• 16:18
  Speaker 6: homes for sale across South Dublin, from Ranelagh to Rathfarnham,
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: Stillorgan to Sandy Cove. When you're ready for the next chapter,
• 16:25
  Speaker 6: start with Ireland's number one property platform, daft.ie.
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each week
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people who
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: have faced tremendous setbacks, and yet somehow have found a
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 16:44
  Speaker 6: Life is one long lesson of chaos. I'm heading to
• 16:47
  Speaker 6: the Emmys, and I have police complaints filed against me.
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 16:53
  Speaker 6: what would you do if it was given back?
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: Where did that need come from, where you thought that
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: He said, I have a work dad.
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: I need a home dad. What happens next? When I
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: came in, he started crying. Everybody in life encounters hardships.
• 17:08
  Speaker 5: What defines them is not those hard moments that they
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: go through. It's about what happens next.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: I decided to risk it all.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: I realized how valuable every day was. You're worth the work.
• 17:18
  Speaker 6: Listen, Dara, I'm not going to pull punches.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: You can use your voice even if it's shaped.
• 17:22
  Speaker 5: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
• 17:26
  Speaker 5: Only one question matters. What happens next?
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: With Judge Ito, in your podcast, you said that you
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: requested to speak to him, and then he wrote you
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: an email back saying that he hopes you're doing well,
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: but he promised one journalist this interview.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: And I ain't telling you this, but I am the journalist. Oh,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: so he's in the hallway?
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: I'm doing your life. He's going to Juicy Scoop first
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: for Judge Ito. Sweet, yeah. I mean, when you think,
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: When we look back, the fact that, like, and I
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: love Jay Leno, but that he had, like, the dancing
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: Judge Itos. I was telling my husband that. I go,
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: I just, like, what the fuck was wrong with our country?
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, our country's fucked up now. But, I mean,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: that it became such truly a circus that you had
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: a joking bit about two incredible humans, a mother, a son,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: that were murdered, and you have these dancing Itos on
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: your show. Like.
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: I have to tell you that that part still trips
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: me out. I mean, I was talking to Kelly before
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: we started about I started watching Billions.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: And in an episode the other day, they referred to
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: the civil case, but by name. Like, usually it's just
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: there's like a suggestion to it.
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: But this was like, I'm going to, you know, take
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: him down like the Goldman's took down OJ.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: And I was like, wait, what? Like, it was such a.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: And then the other character is like, well, he got
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: away with it. If he can get away with it,
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: I can get. I'm like, this is just a trip.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: And this is just on TV, you know? And so
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: I catch myself, even 25 years later, I'm still so
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: fascinated with how much it's referred to.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: It's so much part of our pop culture.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: It was not just part of our pop culture because
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: when I was speaking to Shannon, she says, you know,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: my sister has been an attorney for like 25 years now,
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: and she says seminar after seminar, they refer to the
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: cases because they were so... And I appreciate that and
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: I'm grateful for that.
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: And I think, you know, throughout the, the, um, and
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: we have a bonus episode that's coming up, I think
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: actually this week with Robin Sachs.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Um, who is Robin Sachs?
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: Robin Sachs is a, um, she's a prosecutor from the
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: DA's or she passed prosecutor from the DA's office.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: She's a social worker, domestic violence.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: Expert.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she's out in this world.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: But she talked a lot about how so many of
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: the laws changed and policies within law enforcement and within
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: the courtroom changed to benefit the system to make it better.
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: I know that there was a lot of movement in
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: the domestic violence arena to help. So I appreciate that,
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: but the jokes and... The other side of it, the humor,
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: I just, that was hard. It's hard to be watching
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: something and, you know, now my son is old enough
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: to be paying attention and so he hears things and,
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: you know, he sees things and he's like, wait, did
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: they just, like, yeah, babe, like, and it's just, it's
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: a trip because people yell at me for not being
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: able to get over it and I should just be
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: moving on.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: I should find closure. Just, you know, Get over it, blah, blah, blah.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: I'm like, but do you function in the world?
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: Because it's everywhere.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: So even if I don't want to, I don't get
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: to because the whole rest of the world's doing it.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: And I'm just like, you know, the recipient to it. And,
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: you know, we watched the entire thing. I guess we
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: watched it on Court TV. Was that what we watched?
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: And also the Menendez trial was on Court TV. So
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: after that, did they stop doing that where we could
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: watch the whole thing? No.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Court TV is just making a comeback, actually. Court TV
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: was on for quite a few years.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: And who decides?
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Who says, yes, this can be on court TV or no,
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: it cannot?
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I guess if a case has enough sex appeal or enough,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: So is that someone above like a Judge Ito or
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: does Judge Ito decide.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: To bring in the cameras?
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: Judge Ito can rule whether or not to let the
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: cameras in the courtroom. So once the judge decides that
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: Cameras can be let in and the media petitions or
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: does whatever they need to do to get a pool camera,
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: however that works. And I remember that all went down
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: and he agreed to let the cameras in. And I
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: thought that was going to be a huge mistake, which
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: I think in some ways it was because there was
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: a ton of pandering for the camera. But in hindsight,
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: being that we got the verdict we did, I appreciate
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: because people got to watch for themselves and make a
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: determination based on what they watched rather than listening to
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: the pundits.
• 21:52
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Give their impression of the day, which wasn't always accurate.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: Right, true.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: And I do remember, you know, the moments about it.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: I remember when Marcia Clark did this little, like, ballet
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: move to get through the, she, like, lifted herself up and, like,
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: did this little, like, dance to get over. And I
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: don't think she was doing it for the cameras, but
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: I just remember, like.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I totally remember that now that you say that.
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: Like, and I was like, oh.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: And then the day, which, did you watch the Ryan Murphy?
• 22:18
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: It's serious. I, I, I don't know how you feel.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Obviously you have your own opinion. I thought it was fabulous. I,
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I love the portrayal of Marcia Clark.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: I love the information that came out like the one night, um,
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: that Sarah Paulson is like out having a drink or something.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: And somebody's like, well, he might be innocent. And she
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: just goes fucking off on all the physical evidence. Like
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: we've never had more physical evidence in this. Like, and
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, like how is, How is it
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: suddenly that you forget that because of the drama? Theatrics, yeah.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: And then how they're like, I remember reading like, Marcia
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: Clark has.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: A Caesar salad with chicken every day.
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: And I was like, actually, Caesar salads are kind of fattening.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Like, how is she staying so thin?
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: Like, that's what I'm like, every single, it was like
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: in every tabloid. And of course, the hard copy, which
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: was a very popular show at the time. Like a
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: strip show every night at like seven at night. And
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: there's a connection to that because with Kato, Kato knew
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: my brother and sister and they were like friends. And he,
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: and so when all this went down, my sister goes,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: you know, we have a video. Like they hadn't kept
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: in touch with Kato, but it was a couple of
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: years back. My brother-in-law had a restaurant downtown near the
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: convention center. And one of Kato's jobs was being, like,
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: a person for the car show. Like, hey, everybody.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: So they made friends. Is this after the trial?
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: This is before the trial. And so my sister was like,
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: she goes, oh, my God, remember with my nephew's, like,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: extravagant four-year-old birthday party? They had, like, some magician that, like,
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: brought a tiger or something. And, like, they had Kato be, like,
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: the emcee, and Kato's little daughter came. Oh, okay.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Who is, like, probably 35 now or something. Yeah, 33.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: She was, like, the age of my nephew. Sorry, I've noticed, like,
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: I'm going to scratch your voice. So I'm, like, out somewhere,
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: and I'm talking to somebody, and now the trial is going,
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: or it's about to happen, and all the news is
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: coming out. And I'm talking to this girl, and she's like, oh,
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: I work for Hard Copy, whatever.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: And I go, oh, you know, I go, so weird.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: I go, you know, and I tell the story.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: I never give this girl my number. She calls my, like,
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: I remember, like, listening to the voicemail, like, or the
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: answering machine message. This is hard copy. I want to
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: talk to you. I can give you, if you can
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: get me that video, no one has seen Kato's daughter.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: If you can get me a video of Kato's daughter,
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: we'll pay you for it.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: And I was like, this is so fucking sick.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: What is Kato's? little daughter at a party three years
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: ago have anything, but it was new content because every
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: night they had to do something on this show about
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: what was going on.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I think, I think that part, you know, for us,
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: that was.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: So anyway, I got $ 500.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: No, just kidding.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: Do you imagine?
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, because I laugh at like back then, if you
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: weren't offered money for your story, you were nothing.
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: Now it's like people can post on their own. So
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: you get money for your story's it doesn't exist really. So,
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: I mean, looking back then, you know, again, we were
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: just at the beginning of cable. I mean, we barely
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: had CNN. I mean, it was just so new, you know,
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: the tabloids were so popular still, you know, but we,
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: we just didn't get it. We didn't understand how far reaching,
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: we didn't understand how popular the, the, the popular, that
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: sounds positive, but like.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: How obsessive people were with the case across the globe.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, and so I didn't, You know, we didn't
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: have the internet then. I mean, we would just get letters,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: you know, Goldman Family, Agora, California, hordes of letters, you know,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: that would show up that, you know, gifts that were
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: being sent to us, like, you know, blankets.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, it was just amazing.
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: People were so supportive. And then you'd get the death
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: threats and the stalking and all that crap in there too.
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: But I just had no idea. I was so sheltered
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: in what we were a part of because I would
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: go to court all day. I mean, it was downtown
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: LA from Agora. So, you know, it was hours or,
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: you know, three hours a day in traffic. We'd listen
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: to talk radio, listen to their interpretation, and get home,
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: we'd put the news on, I'd listen to, you know,
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: whoever was on the news that night talking about it,
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: and then you'd flip the channels and you'd see hard copy,
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: and then it was on CNN, and then it was
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: on somewhere else, and.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Then it was, just, we couldn't escape it.
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: And I think, you know, when the cases ended, everybody
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: went away, and then I was like, wait, where did
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: everybody go? Because we were so consumed by it all
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: the time that when they stopped covering it, I was like,
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: oh my, oh wait, something's weird. And then I started
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: dealing with my brother's loss because I hadn't really processed
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: it before.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: Right. So sometimes, yeah, there just isn't even time because
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: you're so, your days were so full.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: But you know, but when you talk about heart, like
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: all that stuff was going on and I just, it, it,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: that's the part to me that I think I was
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: so detached from because it was impacting so many people.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: So when you talk about the FX show, you know, I,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: I thought it was lame.
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: Um, I, and I was bitter going into it because
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: they ever show someone playing you.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Which was lame. Um, Was she not cute enough? No,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: she wasn't cute enough. They didn't consult with us. They
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: didn't tell us.
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: I found out, like everybody else, Marsha and Kato got
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: advanced copies so they could watch it.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: We asked for advanced copies. We were shunned.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: Oh, that sucks. And I was really.
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: Disappointed in how that all went down. I felt like,
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: what is the point of this? Like, I don't understand
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: what you're doing. Why do you need a dramatization? Like,
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: do something on the up and up? And then you wonder,
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: you know, so much of what they discussed was supposed
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: to be attorney-client privilege, so what was.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: truthful with the things they were sharing and what was
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: made up and, you know. Well, what were some of
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: the things that you didn't think were accurate? I should
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: replay before I came.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: I don't remember.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: There was just little things here and there. I'm like,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: that didn't happen.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: I don't, there was something about the chase scene and
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: how he was, the night that they, after he, the
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: Bronco chase was done, that scene that didn't happen. There
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: was a scene in there with my dad and I,
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: that didn't happen. Conversations that between Marcia and I that
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: didn't happen.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Like, it was just little things that it didn't, it
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: only bothered me because I like to be honest. But
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: to everybody else, it just spoke to his guilt, which
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I appreciated that.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: But, I don't know.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: I just, the whole thing was gross.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: I just remember with a Connie Britton playing Faye Resnick
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: and I know Faye Resnick. Yeah. And her book was
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: one of the books I read the minute it came out.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: And what was interesting about Faye Resnick's book, and I've
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: said this, after, 20 years later, when you read it,
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: there was another documentary that ESPN did.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: 30 for 30.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: That was truly, if you go back to Resnick's book,
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: everything she fucking said was true. But people dismissed it
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: and dismissed her as being thirsty or whatever the word
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: was at the time, wanted to do Playboy, whatever.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: But like, you know, all the stuff leading up to
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: his going crazy.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: Because of their tumultuous, you know, an abusive relationship and
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: her taking him back and then her being like, no,
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: I am done. And he'd be like, how dare you
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: take me back? And then, you know, embarrass me like this,
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: which had set him off. All of that was, was
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: in her book and people, you know, just saw it
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: as like this, you know, cheesy book or whatever. And
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: so when they had the Connie Britton playing Faye Resnick,
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: I was like, I love Connie Britton. I go, but
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: you were 35 and you looked 25. So I was like,
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: are you at all annoyed that like... And she and
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: I had reached out to Faye, like, would you ever,
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: would you like to come on? And then the day
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: that she heard, like a couple days before, she was like,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: you know what? It just... every time I only want
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: to speak about domestic violence, every time I speak anything
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: about this, it just doesn't serve me or Nicole. Well,
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: and I'd go, I said, don't then forget it. Like
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: I'm not here to give anyone a stomach ache or
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: stress them out. You know, I'm like, I just, I
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: just wanted the world to know that you were truthful. Like,
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: I just feel like people didn't think that, you know?
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: And then even when she had a little bit on
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: real housewives of, Beverly Hills, the one girl that was
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: like the, she was married, at one time she was
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: married to, was it Marcus Allen?
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: That Nicole had had an affair with. That came up.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: And I was like, whoop.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Faye was telling the truth.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: Like, that happened.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: That all added to their crazy relationship.
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: The defense painted Faye to be the intended target, that
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: it's her fault.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Like, they really did a number on her.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they tried to say that they were doing cocaine
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: all the time and drug dealers were coming for them
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: in Brentwood. I got an email yesterday.
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: I mean, legit email yesterday from someone saying that it
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: was Nicole. I mean, that it was Faye. I mean,
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: I get them all the time, but it was Faye,
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: that she was the intended target. My brother was collateral damage,
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: although he's a drug addict, and that he was the
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: biggest drug lord in Brentwood, which is hilarious.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Seriously, he's a drug lord, my brother, because he had
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: a beeper. He all did. I know. But that was
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: the thing, that my brother had a pager, so therefore
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: he was the drug addict.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: He didn't even have a cell phone, so he wasn't
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: that good of a drug dealer. But I felt for Faye.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: I don't.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know what went on and who cares if
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: she did cocaine, like who cares?
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: And so, but what they did to her, you know,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: and that's what I'm saying when you talk, when I
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: was mentioning before about like the rules of efficacy and
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: like being moral, like they didn't care who the defense,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: they didn't care who they took out.
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: In the process and their, and their zealous defense of their,
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: of their client. They didn't care who they took out
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: in the meantime. And you, Talk about Kato. I mean,
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: that was one of our conversations in the podcast. Like,
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: he was devastated. You know, I mean, he hibernated for
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: a year after.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Couldn't go out in public.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Would get spit on and cursed at. And I think
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: you said he had gum thrown at him.
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: And it's damaging to people's personal and professional lives.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: And you don't think about that.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: And with Kato, because we were friendly after that. And
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: then when I started my podcast a couple years ago,
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: I had him on. And I said to him, you know, he...
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: People are such assholes that aren't in the business. But
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: he wasn't like somebody that wasn't doing anything. Like, he
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: was booking stuff. Yeah, was he, you know, was he taking,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: you know, did he take an opportunity of a guest
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: house in Brentwood so he could go on his auditions?
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: But it wasn't like he wasn't talented or funny. He
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: just hadn't made it yet. And so I said, you know...
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: Look at Kim Kardashian.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: She didn't make it until she did a sex tape. So, like,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: Honestly, I mean, I want to touch that element. But like,
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: so I said to him, I was like, you know,
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: did you, you know, do you ever think like, had
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: this not happened? Had this whole thing not happened? And
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: you just went the regular route that we all did,
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: auditioning for sitcoms and trying to pitch TV shows. What?
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: And he's like, yeah, of course. You know, in some
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: ways people are like, the only reason we know you
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: is because of this. But how do you know that
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: we wouldn't have known him in a legit way?
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: Talent way.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Well, people say that to me, too. You know, that
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: I'm profiting off my brother's murder, that I'm writing the
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: killer's coattails, that we wouldn't even know who you are
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: if this happened. I'm like, uh-huh. So am I not
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: entitled to write a book, then?
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: Am I not entitled to speak out on victims' rights?
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: Am I not entitled to have an opinion on something
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: because you might not know me if my brother didn't die?
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: Like, I don't understand.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: You're thinking about that.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: And why is that a joy? Like, you were studying
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: to be a psychiatrist. Like, your goal.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Wasn't, you know. And so what? Like, I'm living my life.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: It's my story to tell.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: You know, people, well, everybody else is making money. And
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: I said, and I've said nothing about that. There's nothing
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: I can do about it.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: It is what it is.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: But why am I the only one that isn't entitled
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: to try to do something with the platform that I've
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: been given?
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: What am I?
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: I could choose to do nothing and that would be
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: fine too, but I'm trying to do something positive with
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: the platform that I'm giving and the, and the negativity
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: that I get slung at me because of that is
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: so frustrating. Um, because I, if I have a voice,
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: I'm going to use it. And you know, people like, well,
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: you're profiting. I'm like, okay, I, I don't, I don't
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: know what that means.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I'm profiting. I'm, I'm, I'm earning a living. I also
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: do not profit work.
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: I've been running like, but this is the stuff that
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: people get, you know.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: And they yell at me for it.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: Speaking of, speaking of the Kardashians, um, I met them
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: a long time ago and the first time I met
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: them was they were, they had the baby store and
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: my friend goes, you want to go.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Have lunch with, you know, Kris Jenner and Courtney?
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: And I was like, I mean, I was like, the
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: first thing I'm going to ask about is the trial. Like,
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, they probably will be offended, whatever.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: And I immediately sat down with them and I was
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: with Jillian Barbary.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: You do, you know, so she was equally obsessed, right? Yeah.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: So I was like, I know you probably don't want
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: to answer this, but, like, I got to ask you,
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: you know?
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: And it was really interesting because at the time, Courtney was,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: you know, early 20s.
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: So Courtney is, like, one of my stepbrother's wife's best friends,
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: which is such a weird thing. So when she got married,
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: she was going to have her bridal shower, the bachelor, whatever,
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: and she's like, Courtney's going to be there.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: Do you want to come?
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, I can't do this. So you didn't go? Well,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: it didn't end up happening, but that was part of the...
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: So anyway, so Courtney belongs to this.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: But one of the things I said, I was like,
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: you know, what was that like? Because Chris was with
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Bruce at the time and very much on the prosecution side,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: a hundred percent, you know, believed OJ was guilty. And
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: I go in here, your ex-husband raising your teens, your children,
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: you know, your co-parenting, these kids is now sucked into
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: the defense side. And what was that like? And she
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: was just like, it was terrible. Like we had to
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: meet secretly to exchange the kids because people were following them.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: And Chris, Courtney said, Kim and I, we kind of
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: took our dad's side because nobody else was.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: And we felt sorry for him. Like in their world,
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: it was not at all that he was innocent.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: In their world. So I said to Chris, I guess,
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: so the day that you go down there, because I remember,
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: I remember seeing Robert Kardashian's face.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: I remember seeing your, you know, the hair all over
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: your face.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: And like, you know, I remember seeing it like it
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: was my own family, you know, because you lived it.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: And I said, what were you guys thinking as you're
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: driving down there?
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: Like, were you.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: She's like.
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: I don't remember the Kardashians being there at all. I
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: remember Chris and Bruce being there.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: Chris and Bruce. No, that's from.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, I thought it was the Kardashians.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: Oh, not the kids.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: That was the thing in the FX thing. They painted
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: them that they were very much a staple in that courtroom,
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: which they weren't.
• 36:47
  Speaker 5: No, no, no.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Chris and Bruce came. And I remember seeing Chris's face.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: And she goes, we... She's... What I recall her saying,
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: and this is my memory, so like... But is that she...
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: They were very.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Confident he was being convicted. They were.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: shocked. And so my question to you is when you
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: went down that day, were you confident?
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Were you scared? What were you what was your thought?
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: I don't think I was confident. You know, so the
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: verdict came out the day the verdict was told that
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: they had it the day before. So we had to
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: wait the full day to have it be read. And
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: so we were sitting in a.
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: House full of people that were very convinced that because,
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: you know, they had three and a half hours of deliberation,
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: that must mean guilty. And, you know, the pundits were
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: all over the TV sharing their stories and insight. And
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: I hung out in my brother's room, kind of kept
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: to myself because I wasn't sure. I sat in that
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: courtroom every day. I didn't miss one bit of testimony.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: And I just wasn't sure. I knew all the evidence
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: pointed to him. But like I said before, the defense,
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: the jury just seemed so enamored with the defense that
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: I just.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: The dream team.
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: The day, I didn't ask anybody for their opinion. I
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: didn't want to know anybody's opinion. We drove down to
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: the courthouse.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: I remember I was sitting in a hallway on the
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: floor where the district attorney's office was. And one of the,
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: Furman's partner, Ron Phillips, he and I were pretty close.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: Furman was the detective that had, you know, that they
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: were saying that he must have planted the evidence because
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: he had, you know, horrible evidence of him using racial
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: slurs and stuff.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: With a writer and a lot of that.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: He was not turned out to be a designer.
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: He wasn't very welcome in the district attorney's office anymore.
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: But I was still close with Ron Phillips. And I
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: don't know why we used to call each other puppy
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: and kitten.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: It was kind of silly.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: So I said, puppy, what do you think? And he said, kitten,
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: I think acquittal.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: And I was like, what the... And I... And he's
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: the only one I asked, and I didn't ask him why.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: And how many minutes of this before you got the
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: real one? Literally just half an hour, maybe 20 minutes.
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: It was just right before we went down, and then
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: I was in the hallway going in, and one of
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: the DA investigators, who we were transported in and out
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: of a private, not a private, like a hidden door
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: kind of thing. And George was with me, and he
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: was pushing me into the room, and I remember feeling
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: just stuck.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Like I couldn't. My body was sort of paralyzed out.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: In the hallway.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: And he's like, you got this. I'm like, I don't
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: think I can do this. And he's like, you're strong.
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: And he shoved me in. And then the verdict was
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: what it was. So I think, I just, I didn't,
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I don't think, I don't know if.
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: I was just concerned or worried. I don't remember feeling confident.
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: But I remember feeling betrayed.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah. When, when.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: The verdict was read.
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: And I know that, you know, they read Nicole's verdict first.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: And I remember, you know, wanting people to be quiet
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: because I wanted to hear Ron's verdict because I had
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: tricked myself thinking.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: That it would be different. I mean, I don't know.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought that was interesting because you said that
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: in your show.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: That there was this, you know, where once you hear that, well, Clearly,
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: but that you were still this little bit of hope.
• 39:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: And I, you know, and I, I think there's just
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: that moment where you still hold on to everything you can.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: And then I, you know, was not guilty again.
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: And, you know, I just, I absolutely remember just feeling
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: completely betrayed by the system and the jury and just shocked,
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: you know, all of it. And, and then we left and,
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: you know, there was a ton of people in the
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: hallway and, when we walked out of the courtroom, you know,
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: like everybody just sort of parted, sort of the parting
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: of the Red Sea and just not.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: A word was spoken. Um, and then we ended up
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: in the, in the service elevator to go up to
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Gil Garcetti's office and everybody just burst into tears and
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: it was horrible. I mean, it just, you know, I,
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: I've had 25 years to think about it and, and
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: to kind of assess and I still can't figure out
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: how they got it wrong. Um, but they tell you
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: that they, you know, it was retribution for Rodney King
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: and they tell you that they didn't really seem impressed
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: by the, domestic violence because just because you beat the
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: shit out of your wife doesn't mean you'll kill her.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: They didn't believe in the evidence.
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: What I always thought was so interesting about Marsha, what
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: I've read or heard, is that Marsha, being that she
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: had been very successful in convicting domestic violence abusers who
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: abused their wives who might have been African American, that
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: she was okay with not, she wasn't Like, I want
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: to say, like, she was the least, it seems to me,
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: if I can say my opinion, she was probably the
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: least racist person there because she was like, I'm fine,
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: I'm fine with all of it being African American because
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: I've done quite well and these women love me. And
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: because she believed in her evidence. And she believed in
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: the evidence. And so, and then I thought that that
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: was so interesting when it came out when they did
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: jury selection and they realized that, like, African American females
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: over 50 really didn't like white women who married black men.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: And so their sympathy and empathy were going to not
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: be there for Nicole Brown Simpson at all.
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: Well, I think, you know, in the, I forget which,
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: it was Lionel Cryer in the episode said that, you know,
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: I think Marcia was banking on the opposite of that.
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: I think she thought that that African-American women would be
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: pissed at him for dating outside his race.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: It could be that, yes.
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: And so he's like, she missed the boat completely. I mean,
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: he even said that as soon as he looked around
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: and saw all the black women on the jury, that
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: he's like, no, they're never going to get this. So
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: from the get-go, because he thought Marcia flipped the strategy
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: of her thinking.
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: Got it.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: You know, again, I go back to, it should have
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: just been about the evidence.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: And I didn't realize. When they went to the house,
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: when they took the field trip to the house, Now,
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: that part was revealed in the Ryan Murphy series that,
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: and this has been proven to be true, that Johnny
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: Cochran went in and put a lot of African-American art
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: and photos of his family.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: His mom next to his bed.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, got rid of, like, all the white man cronies
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: on the golf course photos and made it really, like,
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: an episode of, you know, the Cosby Show.
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: I remember Chris Darden telling me... I don't remember if
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: it was that day or the next day in court
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: telling me all about that, and he was pissed.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: And he was like, what are you going to do?
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's nothing you can do. I was pissed.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: You know, we didn't get to go, but we knew
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: that that all happened, that they went in and did, like,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: a redesign of the inside of his house.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: And, I mean, what a fun day for the... I mean,
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: of all the days, that was probably a day, if
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: I was being sequestered for 260 days, And I got
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: to go out to Brentwood and see the house.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: I'd be a little excited. It's like going to a museum. Okay, great.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: We'll finally get to leave the boring classroom and go
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: on a field trip, literally. So they were then starstruck
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: and enamored by it all.
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: And I can't remember, though, if the jury knew that.
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: I feel like there was an argument, and sometimes my
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: memory kind of merges together, that I don't remember what
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: was done in front of the jury and what was
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: done when they weren't in the courtroom.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: I know that there was conversation around They changed all
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: the artwork. They did not show you the real home because,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: you know, we had documentation of what was going on
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: inside because we had the video of the evidence and
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: we knew.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, when they went in the house the first couple days. Right,
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: so they knew that they changed pictures.
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: So I don't remember if the jury knew that that
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: had happened or if someone thought it was a real.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: I remember an argument about it because that's BS.
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: But that's not why they went there. I mean, they
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: went there to show the trail and the path and everything. Right,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: but since they were going there, they thought we have
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: this opportunity to do this. Yeah.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: With the Brown family, I always thought about if I
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: was Judith, is that her name, Judith, the mom? Judith, yeah. Yeah,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: because she's German. Was there ever a moment that she
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: ever felt badly, like I left the glasses? Because for
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: people that don't know, they had a dinner celebrating Sidney's recital.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: And OJ went there, and the parents were like, are
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: you coming with us to Mezzaluna? And Nicole was like, no,
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: he's not invited. Like, I'm done with this asshole. So
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: he was very embarrassed and pissed that he wasn't invited
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: to that dinner. And her mom, Judith, how do you say, Judith,
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: it's a difficult name to say, left her glasses there.
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: So they go home to the OC, and she, this
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: is the way I remember it, she calls Nicole and says,
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: I left the glasses, or she calls Mezzaluna. And Ron
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: is there and he's like, well, I know Nicole's just
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: down the street. I'll just walk down the street and
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: give her the glasses so that since she has, then
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: the mom can come in the morning and get them.
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: Like, I just wonder if there was ever a moment
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: in her life or in speaking to you, like. I honestly,
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: I can't remember.
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: I remember, I don't know that she came up to
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: me specifically and said, Kim, this is how I feel.
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: I know we talked about it. I know that she
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: did have a lot of, guilt about it emotion and
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: guilt yeah yeah and I and you know it's not
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: her fault like you know of course I mean so
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: um but we did I remember we didn't see the
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: Browns that much they didn't come um as often as
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: as we did so um I we didn't have a
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: ton of opportunity to exchange thoughts and feelings it was
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: probably more in the beginning when um trial was first
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: happening we spent more time with them but I do
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: remember I mean she's very very quiet woman very um
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: um very uh stoic and You know, very much the
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: matriarch of the family.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: You know, Denise was kind of the one that did
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: most of the talking for everybody.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: Right, yes.
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: But mom was just, like, fragile. You know, just kind
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: of broke my heart. She just was so fragile. And Lou,
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: just the dad, same thing, big teddy bear of a guy.
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: You know, just very jovial.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, just.
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: I mean, we were all kind of just trying to
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: figure out how to function in this.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: They were in a different position because they still, they
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: had the kids.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: They were raising Justin and Sydney at the time who were,
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: you know, six and nine, I think, or five and eight,
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: six and nine. And so, you know, talk about Chris
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: and Bruce with the Kardashians. Like, that's what the Brown
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: family was dealing with.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: You know, calls to the jail and having to talk
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: to him on the phone and. You know, I always
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: just had such compassion for them for having to be dealing.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: With that on top of everything else.
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: And I remember that was another thing that I believe
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: either the defense brought up or maybe I read in
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: magazines was they were trying to say, you know, he
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: paid for the younger girl's USC education.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: OJ did. And her younger sister, Tanya.
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: And he got the dad an Enterprise franchise. And so
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: this family was like very dependent on him. And I'm like, well,
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: the family did love him and were very nice to
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: him until he killed their daughter. Like, even during all
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: the breakups and everything, they were still, like, the parents
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: that tried to, like, not get overly involved in their
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: daughter's relationship and have respect for it. And, you know,
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: that's all I saw it as is because I looked
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: at it as, like, at the time my sister had
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: kids that age and her marriage wasn't great and the
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: way my parents would be respectful in a way of
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: her ex-husband, like, even though, you know, it wasn't that.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: But I kind of was like, they're just maneuvering. They're
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: just old school trying to stay out of it, you know,
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: during those years.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: I think, yes, I would say that.
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: And I'd also think, you know, one of the things
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: that I've learned over the years with just speaking and
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: just my own research and stuff and learning from so
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: many other people, you know, about domestic violence and what
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: it does to a family. And, you know, we talked
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: about it in a couple of the episodes. I was
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: really upset that the Brown family didn't do anything to
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: help protect Nicole.
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: Like, I.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: I was troubled by that. Because I think when you
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: see someone, you rally. You go and you save them
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: and you protect them.
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: But did she reveal it to her parents? I felt
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: like she.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Well, that's what I'm saying. I think in my heart,
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: I was like, how could they not know? So I
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: don't know. I know that Denise said she witnessed some things.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: I know the family did talk that they saw things.
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: And what I learned in, again, doing the show is
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: that family can't always step in. And Nicole may not
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: have painted a picture of how brutal it was. And
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: she may have downplayed it and poo-pooed it. And there
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: are so many different layers of emotions when you're dealing
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: with abusive relationships that I lessened the anger I had
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: towards her family and friends for not stepping in because
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: I understood it more.
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: Well, even friends would say, like, when they'd have those
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: fun parties at, what was the street that his big house? Rockingham. Rockingham.
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: That people attested the fact that they were friends with Nicole,
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: but maybe they weren't her best friend. And they'd come
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: with the kids for the pool party. and she wouldn't
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: come down. Oh, she's not feeling well. And they, I guess,
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: didn't feel close enough. Like, it was my girlfriend. I'd
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: go right up and be like, how are you? But
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: I guess they didn't feel close enough to, like, go.
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: But those were times that she had bruises and stuff
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: and couldn't come down. And I think as a culture,
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: you know, we see that.
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: I'm not like, well, you know, what I love is,
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: episode nine I think that the um the expert that
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: I had on you know we always say why don't
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: why didn't the woman leave we don't ever say why
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: does he hit her and so I think that that
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: was really such a mind shift for me you know
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: in all these years with with questioning domestic violence and
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: trying to understand it that you know she probably wasn't
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: out there she didn't come down she didn't she's not
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: telling the world this is what I'm experiencing and so
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: I don't know how many people knew people probably had
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: an inkling because I know that he was vocal and
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: there was enough instances that He was explosive in public
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: and people did know some things, but maybe not to
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: the point that someone felt like they could step in
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: and try to protect her.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: But I carried a lot of angst with me towards
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: them for that for a long time because I was like,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: my dad would never do that to me. That's my
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: naive thinking. Because, you know, you never know until you're
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: in it. And I think, I can't imagine how isolating.
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: Covered up or shared or said, well, I get heated too.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: Or you know what?
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Sometimes when they say, I went after him too. She
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: was 17 or 18 when she first started dating him.
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: I don't think it was the ESPN. There was another
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: documentary that was done, I think 2020 or something. And
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: two of her friends that used to come to court
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: talked about the first time that Nicole went on a
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: date with him.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I don't remember if it was 17 or 18. And
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: she came home. from the date and she was all
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: like messed up. Like her pants were ripped or like
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: there was something, she was all disheveled and, and they
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: thought that was odd.
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: Like she just looked. No, I remember that.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: And I want to say it was like a male
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: friend that, that was like, what happened?
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: And she's, she, she was like, basically like she kind
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: of said like, he kind of like date raped her,
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: but she's like, but I like him. Right.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: And that was the first date. And I think that was,
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: and I remember when I watched that, I'm like, could
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: they let her like she was and that was the
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: first time that I realized that I was having those
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: feelings I couldn't I was I was ashamed that I
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: was feeling these feelings towards their family yes but that was.
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: That moment like how could you not step in she
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: was 17 or but I mean I just think we
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: know so much more now than we knew that was
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: like 40 years ago actually or whatever how many years
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: that was because they were together a while but like
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: yeah and then you know she had and it was
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: like such a She had to have two babies before
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: he finally married her. And she got abortions in between
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: because she didn't want to bring another child into this
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: or he didn't want it. It's like, and then so
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: finally she has this wedding and it has to be
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: at Rockingham. And then even that, like, how, why did
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: she get this little condo with her two children? Like,
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: he just held all the cards always. And it was
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: just that type of situation where, and... But she was
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: trying to have a business. I remember in the Faye
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: Resnick book, she's like, let's open our own Starbucks. And
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: she's like, oh, no, we'll have to make our own
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: coffee shop because that's all. She didn't know that it
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: was not a franchise. So Faye was like, no, she
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: was really trying to, like, really be gone from him
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: and really try to do her own thing.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: And it was, yeah. Yeah, I mean, they were enmeshed,
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: you know. I mean, I have a divorce in my life. Like,
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: you know, that's what happens when my.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: Separate, but, you know, they were enmeshed, and they were
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: trying to co-parent, and, you know, there was just a
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: lot going on, and I can't even imagine how you
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: function in that on top of being in a relationship
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: with someone who's so physically and verbally and emotionally abusive
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: to you, you know.
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: And how you... And while you had... So when you...
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: When all this went down with your brother, you did
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: have a boyfriend. Like, how did that happen? I mean,
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: how did that play out? I would imagine that would
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: have been very hard to keep that relationship going.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it ended.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: You know, I... It was.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: probably for the best.
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: Um, I think I saw the writing on the wall before,
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: but you know, you're kind of in it and you
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: make excuses and blah, blah, blah. But, um, I just
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: couldn't carry my weight of, of a relationship and I
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: was gone and he was in San Francisco and I
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: was in LA and couldn't focus. I mean, my friendships
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: struggled too because I couldn't do my part, you know?
• 53:36
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: And I didn't know.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: How to ask for help.
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: I didn't know how to explain and experience, you know,
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: share my experiences because I was just so in my
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: own space.
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: And, um, so a lot of relationships suffered after that.
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: And Um, I'm just checking to see what I, um, oh, okay.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: The author of If I Did It. Pablo Fernandez.
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: I had lunch with him. Oh, you did?
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's like a million connections.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. I did because before I wrote my
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: two books, my book agent's time was like, you got
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: to meet this guy.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: You know, he wrote If I Did It. And I
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: was like, well, I don't need a ghostwriter, but I'm
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: fucking meeting this guy.
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: Like, who writes this book? And I remember being at, like,
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: Barnes & Noble and picking it up and, like, didn't
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: buy it.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: So don't worry, I didn't buy it.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: But I did look through it. And I was going,
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: this is so weird.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: Who writes this book? The premise of the book was,
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: it was from O.J.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: Saying, I didn't do it, but if I did it,
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: this is this fantasy of a story that may have happened.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: And then he puts himself at the scene with a
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: knife in his hand covered in blood. So I'm confused.
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: When we first heard about that, I was sitting in
• 54:45
  Speaker 4: front of kinder care picking up my son from daycare.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: And a friend of mine who was a radio host
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: at the time called me and said, did you see
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: the National Enquirer? I'm like, I don't see the National Enquirer.
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: It was all over the National Enquirer that they broke
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: the story that they paid him upwards of a million
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: dollars to do this book if I did it. And
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: I was like, And then that it was written, ghost-righted
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: by Pablo Fenves, who was one of the prosecution witnesses.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: He was the one that did that. That found the dog, right?
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: The plane of whale sound.
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: He heard the dog crying.
• 55:17
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, at a certain time, which then helped the timeline. Correct.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: And so he testified.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God, that's right.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he testified. And so I was like, what? I
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: was so upset. And we had a civil judgment. We
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: still do. We had a civil judgment at the time.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: So anything.
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: Because after the trial, then you went for the civil judgment. Correct.
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: And how long did that take?
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: Our civil case was four months, six months.
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: And was there any moment that you guys considered not
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: going forward with that? No. Good for you.
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: The civil case started during the criminal case. Well, we
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: filed the papers for the civil case because there was
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: a statute of limitations.
• 55:55
  Speaker 6: Oh, okay.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: And so we wanted to make sure that we got
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: that in. And that was before the acquittal came. So
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: I had no idea even what the civil case meant.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: we just did it because that's what the attorney.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: Told us to do. So even if he was convicted,
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: you would have still.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: Gone forward with.
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: No, because we just wanted, we wanted it on the
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: record that he was found guilty of the crime. I didn't,
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: the civil system, you know, was because we didn't have
• 56:21
  Speaker 4: the guilty conviction.
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: Got it.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: We wanted it on the record. What came with the
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: civil suit was the judgment, the financial judgment, because that's all,
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: the only way that you can punish someone is to
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: hold them financially accountable for what they did. Criminal system
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: is obviously jail. Okay, getting back to if I did it.
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: So if I did it, so we had this monumental
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: judgment against him, which he was not paying.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: What was it, $ 33 million or something?
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: It was $ 33 between the Browns and us. Our portion
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: was whatever, $ 19 or something. So at that point, our
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: judgment was whatever it was because it collects interest, and
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: now it's like almost worth $ 80 million.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: Have you received any money at all? No. Well, we
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: got a little bit from If I Did It, but
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: only because we ended up requiring the rights to the book.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: So I'm sorry.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: No, no, no.
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: So we attached to the book because he's not supposed
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: to make any income. Well, in that process, we found
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: out that he had opened up a shell company and
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: that's how he was laundering all this money that he
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: was making. And he named the company after his two daughters,
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: Arnelle and Sydney. It was Lorraine Brooks and Associates. It
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: was their two middle names. And all four of his
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: kids were the signatories for the account. I mean, for
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: the company. So they were the ones making the money.
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: So that nothing would be attached to him. So he
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: had learned that this was not the first time that
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: he had done this. So he was hiding money and
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: hiding his assets. So yada yada, he files bankruptcy on
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: Lorraine Book and Associates, which then put the book into
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: bankruptcy court because that was the only asset of the company.
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: And then the judge ordered the book to be liquidated
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: and monetized because there was so much money that he owed.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: And so we ended up with the rights to the
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: book because he owed us so much money.
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: So we wanted the book pulled because it was disgusting
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: and we thought it was like a manual for murder.
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: And then I read it and I'm like, oh wait,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: this is actually kind of a confession.
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: So, um, we ended up, we were forced, um, we
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: were ordered by the court to publish the book. So
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: we added a couple of chapters. We added Pablo Fenves
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: to the book. Um, cause I was like, what the
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: fuck did you do? Then you need to explain yourself. Um,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: so it was interesting.
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: And he was on your podcast.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: He was, he was, and he was very good.
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: Um, And I softened to him because he was like,
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: I thought I was getting a confession. Like, why wouldn't
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: I want to be part of that? You know, this
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: was going to be amazing. And then he realized what
• 58:33
  Speaker 4: he was dealing with. And so, but.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: We ended up publishing the book.
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: Was that just terrifying for him to be in a
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: hotel room with him or wherever they met so that
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: he could get the story down?
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was nerve-wracking, but he was like, I have
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: this business. I need to be professional.
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: And he said, I'm who testified against you and I
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: think you're guilty or whatever. I don't remember the exact conversation,
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: but he said it was a lot of work to
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: get the story out of him, but then the killer
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: just was flowing.
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: He was just, But what about in that book, there
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: was like this other personally and everybody thinks that Charlie
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: that he refers to like it was really this friend
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: of him he had a friend with him in this
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: situation and he blanks out and has the knife so
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: he kind of says like Charlie did it Charlie is
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: OJ like it's like Charlie's his alter ego and I
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: truly have always thought that that OJ is and people
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: like him, whether it be murder or just being an
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: awful person, they start to believe their own story, their
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: own line, because that's the only way they can go
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: to bed at night. Like a Scott Peterson who killed
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: his wife or convicted for killing his wife in Modesto.
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: Does he now, sitting in that death row cell, does
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: he just now believe.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: That he didn't do it.
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: Like, yeah, I, you know, I, I, you know, for him,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: for in our case, you know, he's, he's a psychopath,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: you know, and he's a narcissist. And I said, and
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 4: I've always felt that, you know, he hated that everybody's
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: been talking for him for all these years. You know,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: I mean, he, he did it, I think right after
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: the case ended, um, he did a, I want to
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: tell you or something, um, like a video, like he
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: was walking around the grounds. Like I remember he was
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: in this beige sweater, like giving a tour, you know,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: of his Rockingham estate.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: It was just weird.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: Like he just wants to talk you know and so
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: you know doing the the interviews with Pablo for the
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: book he did start getting on a roll and then
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: he'd be like oh well you know let me back
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: up that's hypothetical though yeah you know and then the
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: interview that he did with Judith Regan that didn't air
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: at the time and it aired later yeah same thing
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 4: like he's telling the whole story he's in it he's
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: putting himself in it and then he's like oh I
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: mean if it were me you know but he is
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 4: fully putting himself at the scene the first you know
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: five chapters and why did they pull that interview again.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: We successfully pulled that book down from.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: So therefore the interview then couldn't air until now. And
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: why was it able to air now?
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: Because now I don't care.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: Oh, okay.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 7: Because it was just in the vault at Fox. But
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 7: at the time... Did you get any money from them
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 7: airing that? Because they acted like, we just found it.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 7: And you're like, well, clearly you didn't just find it.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: You put it away and then brought it out. I
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: think they did. And they put it out at a very...
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: They put it out against something.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: I remember people, television people were saying, oh, this was
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: like a network move to like screw over another.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: Wasn't it the FX thing? Wasn't it right around? Because
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: I feel like it was in the last couple years.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: It was, but I feel like, oh, I know what
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: it was.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 6: Oh.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: America's, no, American Idol. American Idol moved from Fox to ABC.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: So the night that it aired on ABC, Fox is like, oh,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: guess what we found? Right. You're right. We found the
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: OJ confessional interview with Judith Regan. Yes, that was it.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: And I had never seen, you know, we wanted that
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: book on. you know, because I was disgusted by it.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 4: And the first couple of chapters was very negative towards Nicole.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: And is it available for purchase now? Okay.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: Um, so, um, you know, and then we ended up
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: with that stupid thing, you know, and then we had
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: to promote it. I mean, we literally were court order.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: The judge said, you are, you own this, you have
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: to monetize it.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: And then what was happening is the people that he
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: owed money to, like the car company or like direct
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 4: TV or whoever he was shipping, they threw all their,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: their bills into the kitty. And so the money that we,
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: made from the book got put into the bankruptcy court
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: and then divvied up to all the people that he
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 4: owed money to.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: So I paid off his fucking debt. And the money
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: that he owed us for our judgment. So we did
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: all the work. And then the day that the book.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: Was published, my dad and I did Oprah, which was
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: a hot mess. And that night he broke into the
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: hotel room and stole all of his stuff back.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: The night that our book came out in Vegas. Wait,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: the night the book came out was the Vegas night?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: That he stole all his stuff? Oh, my God.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: And that day you.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: Were on Oprah?
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: Wait, you filmed Oprah that day or aired that day?
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: Well, that's a whole story.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: So do you think he watched Oprah and that, like,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: set him off?
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: I'm going to take some credit for that, sure.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: It's just too coincidental.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: Well, it's also coincidental that the day that my podcast
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 4: came out, he joined Twitter.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: And the first thing he said is, I am getting
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: even to do so.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: I'm going to have an ego about it and think
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: that there was maybe something that my dad.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: And I in our constant pursuit just put him over
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: the edge.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 4: Because in the hotel room, he talked about, you know,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: not wanting the Goldman's to get any of his stuff.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: So we must have been top of mind.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: And so when that went down, so just to let
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: my listeners know.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: So he's been free for nine years or something.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's been nine. It was about nine years
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: or how many years?
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Which between what?
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: Between the murder and him.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: Or maybe he went to jail for nine years.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: I can't remember.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: He went to jail for nine years.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 3: So there was a span of time that he's golfing
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: and has these shell companies and he has... Living in Florida. Oh,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: and he has a girlfriend that looks just like Nicole
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: Brown Simpson, lives in Florida. The kids now are living
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: with him. They lost custody or maybe as teenagers they
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: chose to go with their dad.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: I think once they went to college and then like
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: once they turned 18 they were... No, but I think they.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: I think halfway through they did... He fought for custody,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: I remember. Yes, and the Browns lost. I think the
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: Browns lost or maybe they were pre-teens and chose to
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: do it. There was some deal that went on with
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: his memorabilia and he went and got a gun and
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: some other people and stole it back because it was
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: a locked room and there was a gun. It was
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: kidnapping and he did nine years for this. When you
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: found out he was going away, was it just like
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: a feeling of like, I just can't believe it. He's finally,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: you get, it's not what it was for, but wow,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: what a treat.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: I felt pretty giddy the day that we found out
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: that he broke into the hotel room.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: Um, we, we were reported that you were afraid that
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: he would get away with that too.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, of course. Yeah. A hundred percent.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: Um, uh, So you felt pretty giddy, yeah. Well, we
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 4: were doing CNN or something. We were doing a live interview,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: and they broke, like, the story. And I remember my
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 4: dad and I, because it was during If I Did It.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: Right when the... That day. Oh, my God, crazy. Or
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: the next day, whatever, when he was arrested. And my
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: dad and I were both cracking up. And, like, on camera, like,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: as they were telling us, we were cracking up. I'm like,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: this is fantastic. Like, because they, you know, they showed
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: him with the handcuffs. And I'm like, this is awesome.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: You know, and then.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 4: You know, we found out more of the story and
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: the trial happened in Las Vegas. I don't remember how
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: long it took, but the night that the verdict was
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: being read, they read.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: That it was like 10 o'clock at night or something.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: They did not hold it over till the next day.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: I was by myself. My son was asleep.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: My dad, I remember, was visiting Patty's kids in Michigan.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 4: So the time zone, like I was completely alone. My
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 4: friends couldn't come over because they were like my boyfriend
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: at the time. He's like, I've been drinking.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: I can't come.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 4: And so I'm like, I'm just by myself sitting on
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: the floor as the verdict's being read. My dad finally called,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 4: and my manager, who I'm just super close with, he's
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: in one phone, and I had the house phone and
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 4: my cell phone listening, and we're all watching, screaming, like,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: when the verdict was read that he was found guilty.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 4: It was just the weirdest, weirdest moment, and I just
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: remember feeling such relief. And then we were able to
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: go for the sentencing. There was a lottery system for
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 4: people to get into the courtroom, and for the Vegas sentencing.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: We were told there was a press release that happened
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: that my dad and I were not allowed to come,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 4: that they were not going to welcome us into.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: The room, that we would have to wait in line
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: like everybody else. And so we did. I did not
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: get the golden tickets.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: None of us did.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: Michael, my manager agent friend, he got a ticket and
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: then he gave it to my dad. And then there
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: was another woman that was in line that got the
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: ticket and she saw me crying And she came up
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: to me and she said, I'm from Santa Clarita and
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: I know all about you and I need you to
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: be in there, not me.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: And she gave me the ticket.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, bawling, bawling.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: It was amazing.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: I mean, she's like, I've been waiting here all day.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 4: And she's like, I just have chances of her being
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: from my hometown.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 4: And so we're waiting in line and we're walking up
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 4: and we're, you know, just about to enter. And then
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 4: the bailiff halts and the killer's family comes in like,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: His sisters.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: The same friggin' people from the criminal case.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: The Arnell and everybody. Yeah, and his sisters, I can't remember.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: I feel like the Justin and Sidney, though, they've kept
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: a very private life.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 4: They've been private. So they all come in. Now, them
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: all coming in took seats away from the public. So
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: now I'm like, oh my God, I don't get a seat.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 4: I can't get, I'm literally at the door with my
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 4: golden ticket and the bailiff's like, I can't. And so
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: she went to close the door and I stuck my
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 4: foot in the door and I'm like, I am coming
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: in this room.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I have to get in there.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: And she's like, okay.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 4: And she opens her and she, you know, like motions
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: for me to come in quickly. And, and, uh, my
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: dad and my stepsister.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: And what were you expecting him to get? I have
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: no idea.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: I honestly, I had no idea. I just, it, I
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: needed to be in there. I needed to see that
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 4: he was pretty disheveled. Um, and I remember the, the, the,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: the counts was like 13 counts of guilt. Um, and
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: each count had a certain, had a different, uh, punishment
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: attached to it. And I remember Jim Murray, you know, um,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 4: He used to be on CNN, but then he did
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 4: hard copy and some of those things, and he was
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: sitting in the row in front of me, and we
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 4: were all getting on our calculators trying to figure out
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: how many years, because we couldn't do the math quick enough.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: And then they figured out that it was a minimum
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 4: of nine, maximum of 33, and that.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: Was just awesome.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: It was awesome.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: And he did get out after nine. Yeah, he was paroled.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: I just remembered I had dinner with Al Cowlings, too,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: about like three or four years ago, and I did
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: ask him after a few drinks. You did? I go,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: come on.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: I go, all right.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: Like, come on. Let me just, like, what were you,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 3: what was, and then, yeah, and then.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: And what did he tell you?
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: Well, Chris kind of stopped me because Chris hadn't had
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: dinner with him.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: I might have to cut this up and show you
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: Mark this.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: I had a dinner with Kris Jenner and she had
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: never talked to Al Cowlings all those years.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: They were estranged.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: She, you know. And then friends of theirs, like this
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: caterer friend of ours that's like a great guy. He
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: was friends with Al. And.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: He was like, is there any way.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: That you would ever talk to Al? And Al was
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: at her wedding.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, she adored him. And so he came over
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: for this dinner.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: It was a small dinner. And he was really nice.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: And I basically said, we'll just.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: Say this for Patreon. I basically said.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: come on, Al, like, what were you thinking, like, on
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: the Bronco, like, you had to go there every day,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: and Chris was like, and I remember she goes, Heather, like,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: this is, like, I just don't think she, I think
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: she just felt like that was awkward for a guest,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: I don't know what it was, but I was, and
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: then I looked back.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: And I was like, well, maybe that's why I stopped
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: getting invited, but I just.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: I couldn't, I just couldn't not ask, like, I was like,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: what was it like to be the best friend, because
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: I understand how hard it might have been, and even
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: when he was driving him and stuff, I think maybe
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: he thought he was innocent or that he would confess or,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean? He was being a friend
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: at that point. And then, so I was kind of like, okay,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: so after that and throughout the whole night and now,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: cause they don't talk is my understanding.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: It's not like that friendship continued. Yeah. I, I don't know.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 4: Um, I don't really know whatever happened to him. I mean,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 4: he kind of fell off the grid.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's, he's fine doing fine.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: Like, I mean, you know, he's walking around this earth
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: and looks good, and, you know, I think he has, like,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: a decent life.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: I don't know what he, I don't know financially what
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: he's doing, but, like, he's fine.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: I always, you know, I always remember thinking back the
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 4: day of the criminal verdict, Robert Kardashian's face always stuck
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 4: out to me.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: I'm like, he's like, shit, I'm stuck with him now. Like,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: that was my feeling at the time, thinking because everybody
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: else kind of fell by the way. He's like, no,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: I've aligned myself, you know.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, and I mean, I really do think, And I
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: think people have said that, you know, later on he was,
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: you know, he then, yeah, I think he.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: Definitely knew he did it and was stuck there.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: And then you have this attorney-client privilege and all that
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: type of stuff.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you were stuck with it, you know. Yeah, but
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think, you know, I interviewed one of
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 4: the defense, because none of the defense attorneys would come
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 4: on the podcast.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: Shocking.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 4: And so I had the private investigator, Pat McKenna, Um,
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 4: he talked to me and, um.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: He was the private investigator for the defense.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: Um, and you know, he, his whole thing is like,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 4: he has to be innocent because of his demeanor.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: I'm like, wait, what are you talking about? Like what
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: kind of a, his demeanor, like his first phone call
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: was to his attorney.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 4: You know, like my first phone call would be my family,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 4: my kids, my check, you know, the mother of my
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: kid just was killed.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: Um, and so, and I said, and then he wrote
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: a confession, you know, the letter.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 4: And I was like, this is your proof. You know,
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 4: he's like, well, I don't know. And I said, that's
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 4: proof of a psychotic person. Like, you know, psychotic people
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 4: and guilty people do those things. You know, trying to
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 4: flee the scene.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: You know, and then the if I did a book. And,
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: you know, and so, you know, I said, like, I
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: don't understand your rationale. He's like, I don't know. But
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: people believe that, you know, if you want to believe
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: that he's guilty, you do. If you want to think
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: he's innocent, you hunker down.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And people.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: He has now surrounded himself with people that believe.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: What about in all the, you know, the last couple years,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: because it being 20 or 25 years, what did you
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: think about when the jurors did say, now I do
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 3: think he's guilty?
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: Because I saw a couple of those interviews.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: So I didn't watch. I can't remember where I saw it,
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: but I remember seeing like an older woman and like
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 3: a guy.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: There was a show, I think The Jury Speaks or something.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: I didn't watch because I didn't care.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: Um, actually having the jury on the podcast was probably,
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: that was one of the harder conversations for me because
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: I was like, I don't want to. And you just
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: had the one guy.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: I do.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 5: I do.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: Um, in the same episode, um, David Aldana and John, uh,
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: Lionel Cryer.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: Um, I, I, I didn't want to, I didn't want
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 4: them to come to me and be like, you know,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 4: I think he's guilty, you know, and blah, blah, blah.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: And they really didn't, you know, they, they justified their,
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: their decision to me. And I appreciated that they didn't backpedal.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a little bit of like, you know,
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: kind of in hindsight and what I know now maybe. And,
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: But they stuck to their choices, and I appreciated their
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: candor with me in that regard. And, you know, a
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: lot of it was, you know, they talked about retribution,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: and I didn't really want to be a confessional for them,
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: and I think I was really worried that that was
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: going to be what it was because I wasn't in
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: any way looking to give them a pass. You know,
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: they're both very apologetic for not giving me what I wanted,
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: but they couldn't.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: And, you know, I'm like, okay. That's the way it
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: felt at the time. Yeah, and I.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 4: I, you know, and with one of them, David, I said,
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: you know, I sort of feel like if we would
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 4: have shown you a video of him committing the crimes
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: that you'd still vote the same.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: Way, and he's like, yeah.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, I'm thinking, really? I mean, he
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: believed in the conspiracy.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 4: He believed that these, you know, he believed sort of that,
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 4: you know, that the LAPD was framing probably a guilty person,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 4: that they had enough evidence they were trying to do more.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: Got it.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: That's... You know, and then Lionel Cryer, he's just all
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: over the place.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: He's the one that did the Black Power.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: Oh, at the end.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: At the end. Which he says that wasn't what that was.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: It's kind of the symbol.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: When you guys did the civil trial, there was this
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: woman that did, like, an HBO one-woman show after. Did
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: you ever see that? Because I went to the HBO
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 3: workspace and saw it when she was trying to sell it.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: I think I was at something like that. I feel
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: like I was at something... so I remember like, you
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: and I were probably like two ships. I know. The
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: last 20 years, I feel like you just like walked
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: in front of me and I went like, it has
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: to be.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: So HBO workspace was a small, like a hundred person
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: theater that people would test out stuff.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: Um, I did like a one-on-one show.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 3: They're not for HBO, but you.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: Could just do it.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 3: And like executives would come and see it. And so
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: this girl that was part of the civil jury, she
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: did that. And they actually made like a show out
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 3: of it. I remember then seeing it. She was, told
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: what it was like. And I remember she said, this,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: you know, got into details of what it was like
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 3: to see the autopsy photos.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: And she's like, this woman's head was a PEZ dispenser.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: And I remember her using that. And then they shot
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: it very much like when Monica Lewinsky did that HBO thing,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: like Monica Speaks, like in black and white, like it
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: was in black and white. And it was just this woman's,
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: her head, her experience of being on the civil trial.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 4: I'm going to have to look. I can't remember. Maybe
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 4: it sort of sounds familiar.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think it was, like, a big hit.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: It's just, like, I was just, like, I have to,
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 3: you know. So I remember I took, like, a date. Like, he's, like,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 3: want to go out?
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: I'm, like, I'm going to see this HBO thing.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: This girl from the civil trial. He's, like, okay.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: And, like, it was totally depressing and sad. And, like,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: and the woman was not attractive.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 3: And so it was just, like, it was just, she
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 3: almost looked like she could be, like, a little bit,
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 3: Is she mousy, like small and mousy? Mousy, almost, yes.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: Very, like, curly hair. I know exactly who it is. Like,
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: just a very interesting look.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: I know exactly who it is. And, yeah, she got
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: that deal going.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: I asked her to do the podcast, and she, sort
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: of like what you said about Faye, she's like, it
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: just doesn't ever serve me well. I wish you the best.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: I'm big, you know, I love your family and blah, blah, blah.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: But she didn't.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: And I get that, you know, because it's like every
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: time someone does something, I take one sentence. It's like, yeah,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: then all of a sudden you get this headline and
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: you're like, well, if you listen to the whole thing,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: you would know that I that wasn't my intent. Yeah.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: Who's going to listen to the whole thing? And then
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: you get like the heat from it. And that's that's
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 3: the bummer. Yeah.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, in.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 4: The benefit of me doing the podcast was that I,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 4: you know. I didn't have to try too hard to
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 4: get people to do it, but part of the pitch
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 4: was it's me. It's like my, my perception, you know, and,
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 4: and I have creative control.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 3: And how did the podcast come about?
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: Because I mean, it was done great.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: It's from Wondery, um, which really does these type of, uh,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: shows really well.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: Like, well, we put it on Wondery.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 4: So Glass, Glass, Nancy Glass, who used to be at
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 4: American Journal, she was, uh, she and I came together and,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 4: and she, we, brought the idea up together to do it.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: So Glass Productions actually produced it and then Wondery distributed it.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 3: So she approached you or were you into podcasts and thought,
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 3: you know what, maybe now it's time?
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 4: I had a development deal with her for a show
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 4: that I've been working on on victims and survivors and
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 4: what they do in the aftermath and it was this
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 4: amazing show which apparently is too smart for TV. So
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 4: we came up with this idea to do the podcast
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 4: and sort of figured that I could still do that concept,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 4: but do it in this world, which I never really
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 4: experienced too much, and so we very quickly put the
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 4: idea together and made our asks, and everybody said yes,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 4: and said, well, crap, we have a show, and so
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 4: I started doing all the conversations, and then they have
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 4: this amazing production team that just went and pulled from
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 4: the archives, and I mean.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: I heard the first episode, and I was like.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is amazing.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, those are a lot of work, and so when
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: they're done right, it's really good, and one of the
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: things I loved is when I'm sorry, what is Glass's
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: first name?
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: Nancy.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 3: When Nancy Glass then called the attorney that was harassing
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 3: you online, who is now OJ's attorney in Vegas, trying
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: to say, I mean, she was amazing. Because she was like, well,
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: you just called Kim Goldman a piece of shit online.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: and she'd like to talk to you.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: And he's like, I don't know.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's like he basically.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: Said something like get over it.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: And she's like, well, do you think he's like a
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 3: lot of things have happened since then?
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 5: 9-11.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah. Do you think someone that lost their dad
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: or husband or wife in 9-11 is.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: Is over it either. He talked about one of his
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: friends dying of a natural cause. The truth about.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 4: Malcolm, and I don't want to give him more power
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 4: than he deserves, but he was his attorney for the
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 4: parole hearing.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: And so I'd have to go back and look at
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: the tape from that. But I don't think he had
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: much to do in the parole hearing. I have vague
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: memories of him dropping his bag or not having the
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: piece of paper prepared or whatever. The guy was getting
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: paroled that day, regardless of who he had show up
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: as his attorney.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 4: It was at that point that he started trolling and
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 4: stalking me online.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, you could go back to 2000 and whatever
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: year that was.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 4: I mean, he was relentless on the internet, on Twitter
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 4: with me. And he just, you know, he refers to
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 4: me as a slave master. And I'm a plantation owner,
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 4: slave master mentality. A plantation owner?
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because... In Santa Clarita?
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because the killer's black and he owes our family money.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 4: And then his new thing is, well, he doesn't owe
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 4: Kim any money. It's Fred, and she's greedy, so now
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 4: he calls me Greedy Goldman, Wacky Kim, I'm a piece
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 4: of shit, I'm demented, I'm delusional, I'm living off the gravy.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, he just.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: But every day there's something. And he's... She.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 3: Handled him really well, though. I love that it got taped.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: She's like, do you mind if I tape this? He's like, yeah,
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 3: I'm taping it, too. She must have been like, yes!
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: So happy. And now he says he's suing us.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 3: Oh, God. Good, go have fun. I'm almost done with you,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 3: but I have a couple more questions. Now.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: Did you, um, know about Nicole Brown? Were they just friends?
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: Did you ever think there was something romantic between your
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: brother and her?
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 4: No, um, I did not know about her. Um, my
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 4: brother was dating another young woman at the time, Andrea. Um,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 4: and I, you know, you painted a very, uh, um,
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 4: perfect picture of how Brentwood was. It's pretty small bedroom.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: Um, I assumed they knew each other.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 4: And I know now that they did, um, that they
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 4: had a friendship and, um, Um, I didn't know, my
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 4: brother didn't go through his list of friends with me,
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 4: but if he was dating someone, I would know that.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: And I knew he was dating Andrea. So, um, you know,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: and then, and I don't mean this to be negative
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: towards you, but so what if they were? No, no,
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: that's what I'm saying. Because people like to, well, you know,
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: I get a lot of messages from people. I actually
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: don't think they were. Well, according to Faye and, like,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: the people that were her bestest friends, they weren't.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, but I think that it was one of
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: those things where, like, there's the hot group guys. Like,
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: your brother was friends with, like, these other hot guys
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 3: that would go to the Starbucks, you know. And then
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: there were the hot 35-year-old divorcees. And everybody worked out
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: and everybody got coffee. And I think it was just
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 3: kind of like a friendly thing. And, like, yes, we're
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: at the, you know, yes, I got the good table
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: at Mezzaluna because I kind of know somebody there. And
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, the reason I think people thought
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 3: they were romantic is because she had set up the
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: bath with the candles and stuff. But then other people
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: said that was her thing.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: Like, a lot of moms do that.
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I'm going to put myself in. You have
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 3: a glass of wine and some, you know. She had
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 3: a fucking wicked night with fucker. the weirdness of OJ
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 3: and was just, and then I think she was like, okay,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: I'll come down.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 3: You can hand me the, and I think he walked
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 3: in on it. Yeah.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: I think it was happening and he walked in on it.
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 4: I agree with you and I think that's what the
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 4: evidence painted and, you know, but I, I get a
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 4: lot of people that will, the people that believe that
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 4: the killer, you know, is, is innocent. that my brother
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 4: got what was coming to him because he was having
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 4: an affair with a married woman.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: And that's usually the sentiment. I'm like, first of all,
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: they weren't married. And second of all, really?
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 3: Like, that's what you think?
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: You know, that someone deserves to get their head cut off?
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 3: Like, where?
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: That's disgusting to me. But it's usually where people, they
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: want to make it. They either want to justify why
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: it was okay for him. Right. Or for whomever.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 3: No, not at all.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: But that's usually what happens, and it's just more of
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: a sexy story. You know, it's always sexy to have
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: just this nice guy coming trying to return a pair
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: of glasses.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: No, I mean, he had a girlfriend, OJ. He had Paula,
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: whatever her name was. He had a girlfriend.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: He was still obsessed with Nicole. Nicole would still make
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: him crazy.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 3: But he had a girlfriend. They lived separately.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, no, that wasn't at all.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 4: You know, and I think that for me, you know,
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 4: The killer, I don't know who says it, but he's
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 4: always proclaiming his innocence.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't think so.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 4: I don't remember him out there proclaiming his innocence all
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 4: that often. But why isn't he more grateful that my
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 4: brother tried to save Nicole? How come that never gets
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 4: brought up anywhere, even the criminal case or the civil case?
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 4: My brother, how come no one stops from his side
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 4: and thinks, you know what?
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: Right, you're right. If he loved her so much, he
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 3: would have been like, oh my God.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you for trying to save her. We need to
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: find who killed this young man. He tried to save
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: the mother of my child. Yes, you're right. He's never any...
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, you know, that just always bugs me. Like,
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: my brother, you know, he, you know, he just.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the wound, his.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: Wound showed that he was trying to, yeah. And he,
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: and the evidence shows, too, that he walked up, and
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: if you believe it, you.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 4: Know, that it's the hey, hey, hey was my brother
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 4: walking up and seeing Nicole being attacked.
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: And he tried to stop it. Nicole, my brother, was
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: killed first.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 4: And, and Nicole, you know, my brother was alive probably about.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: For an hour, excuse me, a minute. And Nicole was
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: killed second, and.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 4: You know, and I think my brother could have run,
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 4: you know, and as much as I wish that he
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 4: would have been more selfish that night.
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: But that's just not him. His instinct was that.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: Well, you guys, thanks so much. Remember to go to HeatherMcDonald.net
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 3: for all of the live shows, San Diego, July 27th,
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 3: and so many others. And, of course, my Patreon, HeatherMcDonald.net.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 6: Thanks.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 3: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: for it? This exclusive place that Dad has connections with.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 6: They have more cars for more dealerships than, like, anywhere else.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 3: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 3: It's Dunediel.
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 5: Where?
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 3: Dunediel.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: There's an accent on the E.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: Do you mean... Yes, I got it on Dunediel Cars.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 5: Lift?
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: Please. You going past Kimmage? Oh, Kimmage. No. Dunediel Cars.
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.