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How Attorneys Can Build Real Business Through Podcasting with John Siracusa · UnF*ck Your Legal Marketing

• Gary Johnson: Welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing, the show. Where we get brutally honest about marketing, business, and the messy middle of making it all work. I'm Gary Johnson, marketing coach, strategist, and professional BS detector for attorneys and business owners who are tired of doing what everyone else does. Around here, we skip the fluff. We have real conversations, real insights, and maybe a few F-bombs along the way. So let's get into it. Today I'm join By my friend John Syracusa, who is the founder of Listen Deck and a podcast strategist who has produced, get this, more than 5,000 audio and video podcast episodes. They're all for B2B executives across a range of industries. And John believes that the best podcasts aren't just professionally produced, but they create. Trust. They build meaningful connections and ultimately lead to real business opportunities. So today, we're talking about why podcasting has become one of the most valuable marketing assets attorneys can invest in, how to use a podcast to strengthen relationships and build authority, and what separates podcasts that drive business from those that simply create content. So, John, welcome to Unfuck Your Legal Marketing. Hello, sir. How are you today? I am so good. I am so looking forward to this because you being from that wonderful state that you're from, ⁓ I'm sure the swear words are just gonna be coming out, you know. ⁓ so let's get started with you. And you produced more than 5,000 podcast episodes, which is for me, I I just can't even wrap my brain around that. But after working with so many business leaders, what would you say separates the podcasts that generate real business from the ones that don't? The ones that clearly understand one thing, who they're actually trying to connect with. It's so crazy. Like one of the biggest things that I think one of the biggest problems with podcasting is actually two things. The first thing is there's people don't understand the model of it, which makes it so damn confusing. Because like There's one model where you get sponsors in advertising. The second model is someone pays you $1.99 per episode. The third one is you're trying to create business opportunity or driving awareness. And the problem is this. The first two models, unless you're famous or been doing it for 10 years, good luck. It's not going to work, or you're going to spend a lot of money and time to actually hope to get lucky, right? Yeah. The third model is where most people lie, which is creating business opportunity or trying to drive awareness for something. And in that case, You don't need to be famous. You don't need a million downloads. You don't need a thousand. You don't need ten thousand. ⁓ let's talk about it this way. We're improvisers, right? We all know we're improvisers. We understand the value of having a a great referral source, right? Someone who sends you referrals, right? Now, let's just say you have a podcast and you have one download in your podcast, but that one download is a referral source who sends you three customers a month. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now let's just imagine this way. You get You double your audience to two. You get six customers a month, then then four. And then you get the numbers of meth starting getting beyond me now. So but but essentially the But that's the difference is this. It's like who gives a shit if you have a million, right? Like who gives a shit? If you are literally have four referral sources listening to your podcast, and then you download it. The problem is this most people can only measure likes, shares, views, comments, all the stuff that is easy to measure with technology, right? So you have all these people measuring with technology. You have a marketing department says for downloads, we really gotta broaden the spectrum of the podcast. We get a a larger audience. We need to do that. And then you end up making a fucking podcast for nobody, right? Yes. And then so first off is they understand the model. They understand what model they're in, right? The second thing is they understand who they're trying to attract and to connect with. And the third thing is they don't build an experience that boards the shit out of everybody, right? Because there's four point five four point five million podcasts, five hundred thousand are only active, ninety percent don't make it to episode three. The reason being is because they usually suck, they're boring, or they don't attract the wrong audience. They attract the wrong audience. So if I could add another point, what makes you great? So let's just say if I'm a personal injury attorney, right? I'm a personal injury attorney and I had some great outcomes for customers. And I'm like, you know what? Or or you know what I mean, right? So people that yes represented in court, right? Yep. And so your client I say, you know what? Clients. Yeah, so I wanna, you know I wanna do is I wanna I wanna create a podcast to share their stories, right? And then I want people out there to hear these stories and they're like, ⁓ my God, this guy's so smart. I'm gonna hire him. He's gonna help us get an outcome. No, they don't give a shit. And not only do they not give a shit, no one's gonna even notice. There's four point five million podcasts, only five hundred thousand are active. So it means you have a teardrop in an ocean. So even if people that would possibly kind of give a shit about those stories, they're never gonna hear them anyway, right? Yeah. And so then I would go to that same personal injured turn and ask them, do you how do you typically get customers? Do they just accidentally fall upon you and say, you know what? I want to hire this guy. No, actually most of my customers come from other referrals from other attorneys. Okay. So why don't you build a fucking podcast for them? Totally. Right? And so and and that's the difference, right? So they understand the ⁓ well, who gives a shit about a bigger market when you can get the right market, right? And so going back to that point. Even if the person or the attorney gets it right, they create an experience that bores the shit out of everybody. And so even if they did care, they can't care because it's so boring. It's so boring. And everybody thinks, you know, topic smart. First thing everybody said when they started a podcast, what are we going to talk about? Right. And the second thing is who we gonna have on as guests? Because they hope for one thing they're creating podcast for themselves. So that's a what are we gonna talk about? And they wanna have guests with ten bajillion followers because if they have ten bajillion followers, you can get one jump, one percent. That makes a big difference, right? No, it doesn't fucking work that way, nobody gives a shit. And so so they end up creating a podcast that's boring, nobody gives a shit. So the ones that work are the ones that understand the market, have the patience and I guess the courage to be okay with one download or two downloads or five, right? And not getting stuck in the more is better because it is not better. More is not better. Yeah. And so the ones that understand that. And then create an experience that activates those people that they give a shit about. And then just being able to to stick up to your marketing department. They say you only have four downloads. Yeah. Those four downloads make me X amount of hundred thousand dollars a month. So I don't give a shit. Yeah, because I think you make a great point. What's the point? Is the point to build those referral sources and get business? That's what you should be measuring, not the how many likes. Now. Wouldn't you also say that those vanity metrics are sometimes good because you have some podcasts that do extremely well, other podcasts that don't do so well, and you can go, okay, why did that one do so well? And these other ones haven't done so well? I mean, is there anything to that within podcasts? So do you mean within your own episodes? Is that what you're asking? What one or you mean like two different podcasts? Like, so let's say that I'm doing a podcast on a weekly basis and I'm tracking it. By the way, I would listen to that shit all day long if you did. You would? Yeah, I would listen all day. Well, I do that, you fucker. So, anyways, ⁓ so so let's say that I'm looking back on the last quarter and I see one of those episodes has, you know, a ton of engagement on it. Is there any value to go back to that and go, Okay, why do I think that that did so well so I can learn to become better? Or is it just kind of like It's okay, just keep on plugging forward. So that's another confusion point as well. What the hell to measure? And here's the here's the problem. So most of the time, like if you have 57 diseases, it's really hard to figure out which one's gonna kill you, right? And this is the problem with with metrics, because people they want to get more, more numbers. They want to share, they want to advertise, they LinkedIn, they want YouTube, they want all these big fucking numbers. And what ends up happening is Is that their metrics are worthless because they have no idea what they're doing. So I have a podcast within provisors, right? I created a podcast with improvisers. It's unlisted on YouTube. And people listen to me like, why the fuck would you put your podcast on YouTube unlisted? Unlisted means for everybody who doesn't know, it means that you need a link in order to find it. You can't just accidentally fall. And I do that on purpose. Because the thing is, I made it for provisor members, not for general public, right? And so I want to know. If I go to a group meeting or I go to a Troika and I mention my podcast, I can see how many downloads I get. And that means something because now it's a very specific group of people, improvisers. And not only that, now I can see how long they stay in the episode. Do they listen to the end? Do they stop in the middle? Do they quit at five seconds? Because you know what? If you attract a million people on YouTube that don't give a shit about you, you may get a million views. But then your average time on episode is going to be 50 seconds or 30 seconds or 20. And then you have no idea, is it a good episode? Do people give a shit about it? So to answer your question, you need the right metrics. You really do, in order to make it make sense. Right. And it's hard. And sometimes you have to close it off in order to get those right metrics. So if you understand to not give a shit about big fucking numbers, then you might actually be able to measure something that's meaningful. ⁓ my God. I love that, you know, because I think most of the time people are going or not doing a podcast because they're not famous. They're not well known. ⁓ they've got brilliance in their head, but they're like, ⁓ but what if I do it and nobody shows up? You know, and it's and I love what you had said is they need to be consistent, they need to be patient, just keep doing it. And and like I've only done, what is it, thirty some episodes. You have a podcast? Fuck you. So so but but I like I look back on my first podcast compared to how I'm doing it now, and it's different. You know, you just constantly are improving because you're doing it again and again. So if you're thinking if you're an attorney who's thinking about doing a podcast and you think you're gonna be perfect right off the bat, you're not. Even if people say, ⁓ my god, you'd be great for doing a podcast, which is great. However, don't think you're going to be perfect. Don't think that you're going to be like, ⁓ my God, I don't have a thousand downloads. I'm a piece of shit. Like, you're not. You just keep putting out valuable stuff. And especially if you understand what model you want, what who is the individual that you're trying to connect with? Because that helps you with your people that you're interviewing, but it also helps out staying really connected because I had a I had a And it's funny that you brought personal injury attorney up. I had a personal injury attorney that I knew that would talk about personal stuff. And he would ask people, you know, it was almost like a therapy session. You know, tell me about you and what are your favorite things to do? And it was in one aspect, it was it was fairly interesting if the person was interesting. But I'm like, but what's my point? Why do I want to keep coming back to this? Right. And and it's just. It just goes, What the what are you doing? Really, what are you doing? And and he was a really popular guy too. And you know what? After about six months, guess what happened? I'm not doing it anymore. Because he wasn't getting any business from it. You know, like, yeah, you aren't. And what you had said is so brilliant. Who are your referral sources? They're attorneys? Then put out content for that. Interview other attorneys who refer you business. Talk about, you know, the different stuff. Interview like stuff that is going to make them smarter, you know, and that's a very, very valuable thing. And and I love the fact that you've got a podcast for provisors that's unlisted too. You know, how do you typically get or decide on your guests for that? So I actually go through a lot of different conversations because I focus on quality, not quantity. What I mean by that is this. I had the same fucking, ⁓ my god, I gotta do more, I gotta do more once a week, twice a week, I gotta do you know, whatever. And so everyone asks, How long should the episode be? How long, how many times should you do it? Should you do it once a month, once a lifetime, once a week? And so all that kind of comes together when you understand who you're trying to attract. So I'm I'm trying to literally what I use utilize it for is not to gain an audience. I don't give a shit about gaining an audience. I just want people, improvisers, when they see the episodes, watch the episodes They get to know, like, and trust me more. The people I have on as guests, they get to know, like, and trust them more. That's the whole point of it, right? Yeah. So I'm trying to scale up the relationship just a little bit. Not not like I'm trying to get 10,000 provisor members to find it and fall and then whatever become subscribers. So if you see my episodes, they have 56 downloads, they have 110, they have Jamie Christensen, someone we both know very well. Her episode has 256. But the point is. That's 256 provisor members, not 256. My mother's one of them, kind of people, right? Of course she is. So My mom's not, by the way. Yeah. Your dead. Mine. Mine's dead. So she's not a subscriber. ⁓ I didn't make you feel like shit. You did that all on your own. You just brought the shit out of me. I gotcha. Thank you. That's right. That's right. So I go through I talk to a lot of different people. And the one thing is I focus on quality, not quantity. So I don't do a fifty-two episode series. It's six episodes, right? And I had a lot of different conversations because I like conversations where the real that they're we're really vulnerable. People don't understand the definition of vulnerable. Like I actually talk about therapy, I was abused as a kid, those types of things. I had brain surgery, all these little things that I went through in life. I share. The reason why I share them is because I want people to feel comfortable share having a conversation as well. Yes. A lot of people think when, you know, you want to give vulnerability to someone, you could force it. It's like, you know, so Gary, tell me about your childhood. It's like, you know, what what the fuck is that? So how do I find guests is people that I vibe with, you know, like ⁓ people that I feel comfortable with, people that I feel comfortable with me. Because the thing is this, everybody improvisors knows their shit. That's why they're here. You're not here because They got lucky and they fell into it and they have no idea what the fuck they're doing. They know they're shit. So that's a basic thing. But on my show, they're also human beings too, as well. And so I like to find people who are comfortable being human beings when we have just real conversations. I'm not interviewing them. We're having a conversation, right? Sharing stories about myself. They're sharing stories about themselves. Because the whole point of the podcast is to get other provisor members to know us, to like us, and trust us just a little bit more, right? Yeah. So yeah, I can't be at every meeting. I I guessed about twenty, twenty five times a month. Cheese. And I would go to your your group more often, asshole, but you're fucking unless you you do in person mostly. In person come. Come, come to the West Coast. Yeah, I'll do that every month. Yeah. So and so it's meant to just scale up a little bit to build relationships and build trust and build and so with that understanding of it, I find guests who allow me allow us to have a real conversation. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They that you're which is powerful. Yeah. Because it's very powerful. I remember you're you're a genius at this because you do allow people you hold space for people in a very powerful way. I I remember the first time that I had listened to and watched Jamie's. And that was a powerful episode. And and I I think you've got a gift of making people feel comfortable so that they will be that vulnerable with you. ⁓ because you're right, you can't force it out, you know. ⁓ and and I'm sure you get this a lot, is I don't know what it is about you, John, but I can tell you anything. Like, because you're safe, right? You know, and and truly that is a huge compliment because I have seen and heard people talk about you and it's never that guy I don't know about him. You obviously haven't talked to my wife then. Yeah, you're right. Or your kids. Yeah. ⁓ but but I mean, that that is a genuine thing. That also is something attorneys need to be thinking about, you know, when they're doing their podcasts is how are we connecting with our person, you know, the the person who we're interviewing, how do we connect with them? Because the stiffer they are, guess what? It's gonna be boring, you know, so you gotta lighten it up a little bit, you know. How do you recommend? like your clients, because you're a great producer. You do podcasts, but you're also a producer. How do you get them to lighten up or get that get that guest to be comfortable? So the one of the first things I do before I work with somebody is this. You know, ⁓ a lot of people think they need to sound perfect. If I say all the right words in the right way, yeah people are gonna think I'm smart, right? And that until they think about thought leadership, they hear about thought leadership, mm, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I could tell you that today How AI really affected podcasts is thought leadership is almost bullshit. What I mean by that is this, right? So I have a podcast. Let's say I have a new podcast. It's on the meaning of life. I am talking about the meaning of life on my podcast. I have the keys to unlimited free energy, right? You see my post on LinkedIn, you're like, ⁓ my God, the keys to unlimited free energy. My fucking electric bill is a thousand dollars. I would love that, right? And you let me check out the podcast. You click on it, like, so you know, today. You can actually pull protons out of the air and ⁓ now you can now if that's a podcast, how can you listen to that? Even I'm telling you how to make free unlimited energy. So you know what you do? You say, Fuck this, you download my transcript, you upload a chat GPT, and you say, Give me the three to five points in this podcast. And now I'm no longer a thought leader. You don't even know what the hell I am. Yeah, you just I'm a data point for you. So what's the point? Right? So thought leadership and podcasting is okay. Okay, gotcha. I understand your point. But it's not as worthwhile as people think. And this is another thing too. Podcasting, although most people think this, it is not really content marketing, right? The base level is you have to know what the hell you're talking about. You have to actually be smart. But you have to be someone that people actually like too. And you have to be interesting. If you're boring, it doesn't matter what you share. The words that you say don't matter because people and I'm sure everyone's heard this, people will not remember what you said. They remember how you made them feel. That's my angelo. Right? Yeah. And so that's it. Right? And so make people feel like, you know, be yourself, be a human being so they actually like you. Because if they like you, then they will listen to you. If they don't like you, they will download your transcript, upload it to Chat GPT and say, I don't want to listen to this fucking guy because he's boring the shit out of me. So just tell me what's what's the smart shit that he said so I can do it. Yeah. What's the point of this? So So if somebody is A monotone, no personality. ⁓ Would you either A don't rec or say don't do a podcast, or they need to get voice lessons. So a lot of people none of the above. A lot of people misunderstand one thing. Like you watch someone on YouTube and you see they're smart at business or whatever it is, right? And you're like, ⁓ my God, that guy's so I gotta do what he does, right? And they're like, But what this the one thing they don't fucking understand is that although that guy is or gal is special at something, you have a special about yourself that that person cannot do at all. And so they don't understand themselves. They don't understand what's great about what what actually makes them interesting. Because you know, you got to business not because you're smart, not just because you're smart. People actually like you and they gave you a leg up for whatever reason that is. So why does somebody actually like you, right? And so you have to what if you understand that. Then you're clear enough to say, okay, I'm fucking boring. No one's gonna listen to what I'm saying. So I need to get a co-host who actually is bor is fun, right? And so we can work off each other, right? Yeah. And so or maybe, you know, I don't know. I do compliance and compliance is boring as shit. I could read a listen ⁓ literally, I could read a thousand page document on my podcast, or I could turn it into like a game show and make it more fun that way. So you have to understand the strengths and weaknesses of what you have, and when you understand and see it that way. Then you can create something that people actually give a shit about. Because honestly, people give you business not because you're boring. They give it to you because they like you, right? And if they like you, why do they like you? And then if you create an experience for them, then that's it. So nobody's too boring to have a podcast. You might be too boring to do a podcast the way you think you should do it, but it doesn't mean you're too boring to do a podcast. I love how you're pulling out their strengths out of them so that they can maximize it. And they're like and they're Going to feel more comfortable doing that. They're like, yeah, of course. This is. This is it. Like, okay, as opposed to, I need to be somebody else. Like. And that is just the poster syndrome. Kill me now. You know? Yes. Yeah. You hate it. Everybody who listens to you hates it. Why the fuck do it then? Be yourself. Totally. Because everybody realizes that authenticity. And they're like, there's something fake about this. Or they'll won't even say that. They'll just go. I'm not sure about this. I don't know. I can't put my finger on it. And it's like, yeah, because the person is not this, you know. And then you meet them in person and you're like, Holy shit, you are not this person. I thought you were this character here, and you're actually this individual, or vice versa. And you're like, why? Gary, this world, this world forces you to become a way that you think you should be, right? And the same thing with the more, more numbers, more analytics. We need more li And then you start to forget who you are, right? Yeah. And then you start to try to do something to sound smart, sound great. Sound like a podcaster should sound, right? Yeah. You google and say, What should a podcaster sound like? And you get seven thousand fucking pages to tell you what a podcaster should sound like, right? And then you say, ⁓ I gotta do this, I gotta do that. And then your your best friend, dude, you gotta do this on your podcast. So like if you're not doing this, you have to show a clip up front. You have to do seven seconds because seven seconds because attention spans, nobody has it. If you're trying to stop scrolls, by the way, you're That's stupid. Because if these people they don't give a shit about you and you're trying to stop scroll, they're watching like, I don't know, shit that's inappropriate and dogs and whatever. Yes. Like do you think they give a shit about whatever the hell you're talking about? So if somebody, let's say an attorney, wants to start a podcast and they they understand the model that they really want to do, they understand who they're going to connect with. They know they they aren't going to be boring. They know Who their guests could potentially be. they think to themselves, I've got the patience. I know that this is a marathon, it's not a it's not a sprint, so I need to be patient with it. Where should they start? Beside like I I and I'll just tell this to all the attorneys out there that are like, hey, I think I should do this. You need to have a conversation with John because obviously you can tell the guy knows what the hell he's doing, but also. He can give you some different ideas. He can help you think outside the box because you're in this box and you need that third party that can kind of pull you up and go, let's look at this in a different way. That may be like, holy shit, that is really good. But where should they start? You know, should they have that conversation with somebody like yourself? Should they just go, okay, I'm gonna open up Riverside and just start doing it, you know, for a little while. Then like hire somebody like you. So So Gary, you said a great I think if I if I understood the question correctly is like if they decide they should start a podcast, what's the first thing to do? Okay. Yep. That's the first thing is do they want to start a podcast? Is the first question, right? If you don't want to start a podcast, you're like, you what other lawyers are doing it, other attorneys are doing, or my mom said, or my marketing department said. If that's the reason why you're starting it, You're never going to be great at it because you don't give a shit about it, right? Yeah. That's it. So number one is do I actually want to do this? Yep. And if you don't, don't. Because look, just because everybody has a podcast, it doesn't mean that that's the way for business, right? You have to have content marketing. You have to do this. You have to do an email campaign. You have to do a newsletter. You have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You have to do this shit. Why? Being strategic doesn't mean doing everything. It means doing something really, really well. That's why Attorneys stand out because they're really, really good at what they do. Very, very good. And sometimes they're so niche that it's so very specific that they say no to most of their customer potential clients because they become very good at something. But that's what makes them great. That's their strength. So the first question is, Do I want to do a podcast? If the answer is no, don't fucking do it. Yeah. Right. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. And then And then you say, Okay, I do actually want to do it. And then The hardest part, but this is the hardest part. You can come up with a strategy like, I got attract these types of people. I sold this podcast of this. I'm gonna create this experience. This is awesome. Great. There's so many tools to be able to do that. Yes. And then you press record, and then suddenly you're like, so today we have Bob Smith, blah blah blah, smart fucking guy, smart great person. And you know, I'm John Circus, I'm very smart at what I do too as well. And you're all nervous. And now you're not having fun anymore. This is now your being not yourself. So when the recording starts, all the strategy in the world goes to shit. Once it's like once once you once you press record, everything goes to shit, right? Yeah. Yeah. The hardest part, I could tell you, the hardest part of a podcast is first is getting other people to give a shit about it. And the second thing is, is to get yourself comfortable being yourself. Because you know what's gonna happen? Your marketing department's gonna say, four fucking downloads, why are we doing this for, right? And then you're gonna say, other attorney's like, dude, you gotta do this. And then you press record and suddenly record button. And your guest is like, ⁓ my god, I gotta sound smart because this guy's the head of whatever the fuck he's the head of, right? Or she's the head of. And so, and then you have all this thing and you're beating the shit out of yourself and you're not being yourself. And then suddenly it sucks. And you're like, it doesn't work. I tried that way too, it doesn't work. Number one is really honestly, just find a way to feel comfortable being yourself. That's hard. And that's what I spent a lot of my time doing as a producer. It's not the technical shit, although that's important. And it's not the the editing part, which is actually very important. It's to let people understand, dude, be yourself. Yeah. Just be you. And you know what? My job as a producer is to remove all the obstacles within a recording to make sure that the people feel comfortable doing themselves. So, guess preparing yes. I do sound checks and video checks ahead of time, not because I technically want it to be great, it's so that they're comfortable. Because the worst thing you can do in a podcast is you come on and Gary, we're talking right now. I'm like, Gary, can you hear me? Gary, is this working? And you know, and you're like, no, I can't hear you. Can you do me a favor? Check it. And then that kills the conversation before it even starts. Yeah, there's no flow, right? This is like Yeah. Now you're flustered, your head's fucking burning, and you're like, both people are burning, right? They're like, ⁓ shit, is this working? Is it not? The doubts are going in their head instead of Having that conversation, they're thinking about the technical aspect of it. Right. And another piss off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's happened to me. And a lot of people they do another mistake is, you know, you have a fucking meeting right before and we're meeting right after the podcast. And so you're you're in this flow and you're done. You're mentally like your last call was heated or whatever it may be. And the and and then now you're done. You have to be yourself. Yeah. That's the hardest part. So first step is. is trying to figure that out for yourself. I usually help people figure that out. Yeah. But if you don't have me, then you have to figure out how to be yourself. And when a time comes when you press record and it says three, two, one, go ahead. You're now you're it's all about you now. You have to be able to be comfortable still being yourself. Even when you have a guest who is way out of your league that you're like, how the hell did I get this guy or gal? Right? Yeah. But they're there. And now how do you actually build a relationship, build have this a real conversation and allow yourself to be yourself. Amen. And it's so I mean, I'm so glad to have you on because this is not where I was expecting the conversation to go. Because I did so much research beforehand. Okay, how can you, you know, ⁓ how can you do it right? What should you do? What should you not do? What are the biggest mistakes? And these are from the biggest podcasters out there. Nobody talks about what you just talked about. This is where your brilliance comes into play is They're all talking about, okay, you have to have the right mic, you have which is all important, right? But they're not talking about the essence of the experience that somebody is going to get when they're listening or watching this. That's it. And if you fuck that up, then everything else is gonna be fucked up too. You know? And and I I had people that were like, Why are you calling this unfuck your legal marketing? And I'm like, 'cause I want to. Because because that's me though. That's authentically me. Like Yeah. My mom is probably turning over in her grave because she never swore. But you know, I even told my dad this. I was like, hey, dad, I'm gonna do a podcast. He's what are you gonna call it? I go, unfuck your legal marketing. And he was like, What? Love it. No. He was like, I know, I know. I know speak that way. And I go, This guy does like if you see right here, this was given to me by my GLA improvisers for Gary Fucking Johnson. Because that's authentically me, though. But people know what to expect when they come on here. Of course. Exactly. Right. And so you're like, all right, I can be my Jersey shore guy and I could swear because I know it's not going to offend the audience. And I don't have to filter that and go, okay, what am I going to talk about? ⁓ I got I got to leave this out. I can't believe I fucking said that. Why did I say that? ⁓ my God. Yeah. Right? I mean, and there are certain things that we're definitely going to edit out of this and it's going to be probably the most editing. Mostly mostly me. Mostly me. It's going be you just talking to yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I'm like, yeah, that's not yet. No. Most of the inappropriate shit that nobody's ever gonna hear. Mm-hmm. But but those kind of things are just so valuable, not only to have a successful podcast, but I even think to get people over the anxiety that they have when they hit record. Because it's so much pressure, right? ⁓ my God. Like I felt it the very first time. And I had a good friend of mine who does two podcasts every freaking week. And you know who he is, Steve Fretson. And and I was like, I want you as as my first thing, as my first guest. I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified, you know. For sure. And was I holding back a little bit? Sure. But I was still being able to be authentically myself, but I still had that a little bit pullback. And I felt that the questions were a little too rehearsed or they were a little too monotone. And I don't want that. I mean, that's not me. Like, and I I think you could agree. That's not you. We don't want those. We want it to buy dynamic. We want it to be an experience somebody gets. And when they get that, like, and when you can have the courage, because you've you've eliminated most of the anxiety, you're never gonna eliminate all of it, but most of it gets you into action. Then you start going after those key points of what's the model that I'm gonna do? Who's my who am I trying to really connect with? I don't want to bore them. Who are gonna be my guests? And how can I be authentically myself? And then fucking hit record and start going. Then you're like, then you get on the damn phone and you call John. Like you can tell John is a very open guy. Like, and that's the thing that I love about you is that. You're you. You're always you. You're so consistently you. I'm not like John's like, you know, really fun guy today. And then holy shit, he's a boring motherfucker. And the next day. It's like, what John am I get? You're consistent. We want that consistency. And that's so important in marketing and getting the word out is that consistency. Because if it's not consistency, they're like, I don't know. Then then they start going away because it feels fake, you know, and I just love Gary, you know you know Chris King, right? You know Chris King? Of course. ⁓ He was a guest of mine. Yeah. I'm sure he was. I'm sorry to hear that by the way. So Chris taught me something that I never forget. And I knew it, but I didn't know how to put words to it, right? My job as a host or as a person with improvisers networking is not to inform people, it's to affect them. Yeah. Right? Because it you can never inform someone You can't inform the shit out of someone to make a decision, but you can affect them to do that. It's hard to ignore when you're affected. So even with my I remember one time I'll tell you another quick story about him. It's funny. I was in a provisors group and I'm doing my pitch and and I'm not gonna do it here. It was boring shit. And he he actually sent me a message, he goes, dude, that fucking sucked. That was awful. He goes that's Chris. He goes, You're pissing me off, right? And I'm like So So I'm like, you know, he's actually right. And I started thinking about why do I do that for? Like, I'm just informing people. No one gives a shit. And so I went from this annoying and boring pitch to would you rather double your downloads or double your referral sources? John Sarakus, the founder of List Sudan. So like Yeah. You know, that Yes. It makes a difference, right? Like totally does. And so your job as a host is not to inform people. It's to affect them. Yeah. If you don't affect them, they don't give a shit. And if they don't give a shit, you're not gonna inform them of anything. So my last question for you is Why the fuck have you never asked me to be on your podcast, asshole? Actually, I was gonna unveil that right here, but you ruined it. You ruined it. You just ruined it. You I was like, I'm gonna do it. I have the courage to ask Gary, as long as he doesn't fuck it up by saying something like that and making me feel like shit. So now I feel like shit. So thank you. Good. Good. Hey, my job is done. I want you to feel like shit. Just like you made me feel like shit with all of my friends that you have on. And I'm like, What am I not pretty enough? Gary Let's just Am I not bold enough? How many friends do you really have? Honestly. Two. Two. Two. Right. So don't say all your friends, because I didn't have two episodes, I had six. ⁓ I love it. Do you guys see why I love this guy so much? He's such a fucking douche. I do wish that you were on the West Coast because that would be a fun time. Probably get in a lot of trouble as well. But you never know. Maybe you meet me in person, you know what, this guy's fucking boring. I might be boring in person. Maybe I'm like, you know, remember for scumped the guys like shrimp and potatoes. That's what I do with podcasting. Like I'm like, you know, there's audio podcast, there's video podcast, there's podcasts, and then you get like, ⁓ my God, dude, seriously, how are you so different a person? ⁓ my God, yeah. I highly doubt that. Like, I actually hope soon you'll become a group leader because then I get to see you in person once a year at the, you know, the group leader summit. So Well, now I know the reason why I'm not gonna become a group leader. Because somebody will hear that. Sorry. Yeah. No, because ⁓ because I I have to see you once a year in person. Fuck you. All right. See I thought it was the other way. Like ⁓ it wasn't that. It was the way that I s yeah. It was way worse for me. Yeah, it was way worse for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just wanted to. So John, thank you. Thank you for your time. You're such a fantastic guest, you know. And if you do want to get a hold of John, I'm gonna put all of his contact information, follow him, listen to his stuff, but really have the courage to just reach out to him. If you're like, hey, I think I should just reach out to him. Have a conversation with him. Because as you can tell, he's brilliant, he's creative, he knows what he's doing, he has so much experience, 5,000 freaking episodes. I still can't wrap my head around that. But reach out to him. The guy is brilliant, and thank you for all your great information on this. ⁓ it really has been so informative for me, just personally. But I know it's been so informative for the audience. So thank you. Thank you. You're Gary, thank You made it very easy for me to have this conversation. So I appreciate it. Well, yeah, actually know your shit too. Fuck no. Yeah, don't say that. Don't start saying nice things because No, I'm expecting you to pay me for that shit. I'm expecting you to pay me. This is the first time where the the host pays the guest. There we go. ⁓ Yeah. That would be good. Yeah. It would be great. Yeah, I'll give him my address. Okay. Yeah, send it over to me. I'll I'll ⁓ the check will be in the mail. So you can count on it. ⁓ yeah. Terrific. Awesome. I can't wait. Bye, buddy. All right. Talk soon. That's it for today's episode of Unfuck Your Legal Market. If you got a spark of inspiration, learned something new, or at least got a good laugh, make sure to follow, rate, and share this with someone who needs to hear it. Thanks for hanging out with me and remember, the best marketing is the one that actually sounds like you. See you next time.