Latest / Authentic Living / Psychological Implications for Return to Work with Rensia Melles

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Psychological Implications for Return to Work with Rensia Melles · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:37
  Welcome a very special guest, renting a malice.
• 0:41
  So, Sorrentia, how are you today?
• 0:43
  I'm good.
• 0:44
  Thank you so much, Roxanne.
• 0:45
  How are you?
• 0:46
  Good.
• 0:47
  Good.
• 0:47
  Retzi and I've, had the privilege of working together, for an a national company, that
• 0:53
  started off relatively, small, in the in the EAP world, which is employee assistance world.
• 0:59
  So I'll tell you a little bit about Rensya and how we're gonna spend our time today.
• 1:04
  She has a master's, and she's the founder of Inte Integral Workplace Health.
• 1:09
  She's just certified psychological health and safety advisor, and she brings well over, more
• 1:14
  than 20 years at this point, managing and designing into now support programs.
• 1:20
  She's collaborated with multinationals and 1400 employers, and introduced and implemented
• 1:26
  success employee supports for global workforce.
• 1:31
  She's passionate about mental health in the workplace.
• 1:33
  And as you know, from my previous podcast, it's something that I speak about often.
• 1:38
  It's my background, and it's something that I really truly believe that we need to talk more
• 1:42
  about.
• 1:44
  Over her career, she's published and presented international and white reach of employee
• 1:48
  support topics, including leveraging the workplace, for health, global trauma support,
• 1:53
  which we'll talk a bit about today, mental health, and employee about liability.
• 1:58
  And she heard MA is in social psychology from the use University of Amsterdam and the
• 2:03
  Netherlands, this I did not know.
• 2:06
  Alright.
• 2:06
  Well, yes, that's part of my global interest and background.
• 2:10
  The bicultural piece is part of my driver.
• 2:14
  Awesome.
• 2:15
  So what's what
• 2:16
  what's, I wanted to discuss today was just the element of mental well-being and mental health
• 2:23
  in this space that we're in today.
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  And, obviously, like we've been talking about this uncertain time, mental well-being is
• 2:31
  something that space that, Rensy and I both live in, for most of our career, but in the
• 2:37
  pandemic to also talk about What are some of the implications for people returning to work
• 2:43
  now that we're in that tiered stage to return to work?
• 2:47
  So, Rencia, so let's let's chat a little bit about, what we're gonna talk about, today.
• 2:53
  And then what we're gonna do is we're gonna start off by doing a bit of a poll because what
• 2:58
  this poll is gonna do is to give us a sense of, what's people, who's with us, and kind of, some
• 3:05
  of the things that we could answer in reference to the polls.
• 3:08
  So, Ranta, tell us a little bit about, return to work now in this uncertain crisis oriented
• 3:15
  time?
• 3:17
  Well, that's a really good, thing because it's very, in the news right now, many people are
• 3:22
  thinking about it as things are starting to open up, the return to work has become very
• 3:27
  complex because even though the lockdown was something that affected, I think it's something
• 3:32
  like 2,600,000,000 people around the globe, people individually had experienced that
• 3:37
  differently, they may have been, very lonely at home.
• 3:41
  They may have been, you know, just overcrowded at home with too many people in the house and
• 3:46
  not being able to get away.
• 3:48
  So the return to work is quite complex, because people have anxiety and concerns about being
• 3:53
  safe, going back to the workplace, people, may be so fatigued from being careful that they may
• 4:01
  not want to, comply with some of the things that need to be put place in the workplace, and
• 4:07
  they're bringing back with them into that workplace what they went through.
• 4:12
  I think people, when when you have something like COVID hit, and with the lockdown, people
• 4:17
  just do what they have to do, and it's not until things start to ease up, and starts are
• 4:23
  look kind of normal again that people, start to think about what just happened And what does
• 4:32
  that mean for me, and what did I learn, and what, you know, how has this affected me?
• 4:37
  And so it will be very unique for different people of them are just keeping really happy to
• 4:41
  be out of the house, to be able to restore some kind of normal, strategy or normal routine,
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  whereas others may remain very anxious about leaving the house.
• 4:52
  They may be anxious about getting to work.
• 4:54
  Maybe not about being at work, but about getting to work.
• 4:57
  They may still have worries about economic, survival, you know, and the security of the
• 5:03
  company.
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  And they may be carrying under Saul's grief and loss.
• 5:08
  They may have gone through COVID.
• 5:10
  They may have been infected.
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  And, you know, being alone somewhere on a ventolin and needing to process that.
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  Because in this search situation of high pressure, people just do what they have to do.
• 5:19
  They're phenomenally resilient.
• 5:22
  When it's not until things start to go back to quiet and normal ish, that people often catch
• 5:29
  up and start process So they're they're taking that with them as well as well as the
• 5:33
  uncertainty about the future.
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  What's happening is that most people go into crises you know, everybody was kinda, thinking,
• 5:42
  what do I have to do to make this adjustment?
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  And they kind of park their emotions related to what they were experiencing.
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  And now that we're kinda into the stage 2 of things, now where people are starting to kind
• 5:54
  of, you know, talk a little bit more about you know, how anxious they are or, you know, really
• 6:01
  a lot of concerns that they probably had all along, but they had kind of just you know, put
• 6:05
  aside and now we're hearing people openly talk about, how, you know, they're concerned about
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  for their children's safety and their concerns, just going, you know, and we I know the grocery
• 6:17
  store is always a place that people worry, but, you know, how definitely, scared a lot of
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  people are.
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  You know, just to get out there in the community.
• 6:27
  Yeah.
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  Absolutely.
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  And the thing is, like and we talked about this when we were, you know, we were kinda talking
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  this through beforehand, Roxanne, there's kind of a a a graph or kind of a a, you know, a path
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  that people go through in these kind of situations because this is really the
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  equivalent of a disaster or a huge large scale trauma.
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  And what people go through initially is you're right.
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  They suspend.
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  They kind of go into this hero phase.
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  You know, we saw this when the lockdown just started, you know, the memes were lots of fun.
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  Everybody was, hey, yay, this is unusual.
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  We're gonna deal with this.
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  We can do this.
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  We're gonna put our home concerts online, whatever.
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  So everybody was very optimistic about being able to cope and move forward.
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  We also have kind of phase where they have this sense of reconnecting.
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  You know, I'm sure people have experienced that where suddenly they heard from people they
• 7:18
  hadn't heard from from a long time.
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  And so there was this kind of we're in this together, you know, so many people around the
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  world, you know, you're talking to people in other places that you may not have talked to.
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  People from other times that you're talking to.
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  So there's also been this phase of look, this is rolling this together, and then people get
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  tired because they can only be in that place for so long.
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  And then they kind of slide down into fatigue and disillusionment.
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  There's so many so many times that you can see Bohemian rhapsody online and be thrilled by it.
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  Right?
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  Just to go back to normal because then it's all about, you know, trying to get worked in while
• 7:55
  your kids know, in the corner trying to crawl onto your lap or trying to get work done when
• 8:00
  you can't connect with the person that you need to talk to to make a decision.
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  So this and people get start to get worn down.
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  And what's really unique about the the COVID situation is normally when people go through
• 8:14
  such large scale traumatic events, they can rebuild because then they know what they need
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  to do.
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  What's what's really different in making these, you know, escalating the mental health concerns
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  that people have is that they remain in in uncertainty.
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  They don't know how to rebuild because there may be a second wave.
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  They don't know if their company is gonna survive.
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  They they're still looking at how to assess risks So all those things in terms of
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  rebuilding the new normal, even that is something that may not last, and that also kind
• 8:47
  of affects people people's resilience to be able to keep moving forward optimistically.
• 8:52
  Uncertainty, I would say, is what we wanna get into a little bit.
• 8:56
  So I'm gonna ask you now we're gonna for everybody that's tuned in, thank you again for
• 9:03
  coming on, but we have a poll that we're going to put up right now.
• 9:06
  And if you take a couple of seconds just to answer this, what this will allow Rensy and I
• 9:11
  to do is to understand who is with us, and how we could, potentially know what are some of the
• 9:16
  concerns are.
• 9:17
  So, Patricia, if you can, do that poll, that'd be fantastic.
• 9:22
  So in in kind of looking at, some of the results that will come up in a second, what
• 9:27
  we'll be able to do is to look at what strategies people actually have in place in
• 9:33
  their companies, and also, you know, Is does it save money, or does it cost money?
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  Because that's really the perspective that, we hear companies talking about, like whose
• 9:46
  responsibility is it for mental well-being?
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  And how much responsibility is it of the individual?
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  And how much of it is actually, the employers.
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  So, so, Roxanne, we are showing some results, I think.
• 9:59
  Okay.
• 10:00
  And so I'm not seeing the results just yet.
• 10:02
  Can you see them runs yet?
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  I'm seeing yes.
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  I'm seeing that.
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  Do you have
• 10:06
  a mental health strategy in place for return to work?
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  Of the people online, a 100% are saying, no, they do not.
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  And, what I do say this is very encouraging.
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  Investing in mental health is seen as a cost saver, not as a cost saver.
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  So that's really great.
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  So that's fantastic.
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  So people are actually so what we're saying is they know they need to do it.
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  However, they don't habit, which is quite fascinating.
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  I I actually thought we would probably see, like, a 5050 of people actually having a
• 10:38
  strategy.
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  Now is that what you see globally with companies
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  Well, I there's two things to that.
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  There's traditionally people have what they call a mental health strategy which is
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  basically a strategy that allows people to go fix themselves, so they will have some form of
• 10:56
  benefit where people can have access to psychotherapy, or where they have, for
• 11:00
  instance, EAP, available for people.
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  And so that's a strategy that is all about Okay.
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  Well, you're stressed out.
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  Go fix yourself.
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  What people rarely have is a mental health strategy around return to work.
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  Around addressing the psychological issues that people may have.
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  And that's looking that means that you need to look at your organization.
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  Itself.
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  You know, there's been a lot of, interest in the media lately in the in this whole
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  discussion about return to work, about, safety psychological safety in the workspace, and
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  companies often don't have that because for psych to create psychological safety where
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  somebody can be in the workplace, express themselves, you know, be, for instance, let
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  people know, you know, I'm really struggling.
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  I'm very anxious.
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  Or I need to pull out of this meeting because I can't manage it or whatever.
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  Or I'm making mistakes because I'm really distracted worrying about my grandmother stying
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  or, you know, there's usually not a strategy around that.
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  So there may be some benefits in place but truly integrating it in your thinking in terms
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  of how do I make decisions, how do I put resources together, how do I treat people?
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  That strategy is often lacking, and That is one that is really, really important now that
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  people are coming back.
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  And one of the one of the main reasons why people are having difficulty and often refusing
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  to come back to work has to do with not the physical, but the anxiety, the depression, and
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  the things of your the the psychological factors of returning to work.
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  So, Raven, the duty of a care will look at them demographics, potentially, the types of
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  positions they have.
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  Let's assume that everybody's coming back with a certain level of anxiety because you have to
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  have some anxiety when there's uncertainty.
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  And if if if there's a rare few that don't, that's interesting, but we know that generally
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  As human beings, we need certainty.
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  Right?
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  We need to kinda have a sense that we can gauge where things are gonna go, and we know that
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  that's not gonna be the case going back to work.
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  So what we're being told is that most people don't have a mental health strategy.
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  No.
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  Why do you think why do you
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  think that is because psychological safety is a standard here across Canada.
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  It's something that employers, obviously need to be aware of and implement.
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  Why would you think that most companies don't have a mental health strategy?
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  I think there's a number of different things that contribute to why people don't do that.
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  And and people often think that the mental health strategy means providing for people that
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  have been diagnosed with mental illness.
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  So often, that is one of the reasons that they think they have it.
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  They often don't realize because you mentioned the standard you know, Canada is really a world
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  leader with the National Standard for Psychological Health And Safety in the
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  workplace, and that's also being used as a template by the ILO for their global standard
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  that they're developing for psychological health and safety in the workplace.
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  What is a new way of thinking is thinking about mental health in terms of what what is the
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  responsibility of the employer?
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  My responsibility is more than just making sure that the employee can go fix themselves.
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  And that's a whole shift in thinking in terms of looking at what am I doing in the workplace?
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  That's affecting people.
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  Am I the one, as of the way that I treat people, as of the way that we distribute work?
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  And so people are often very anxious about that because that seem to be like a really huge
• 14:35
  undertaking.
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  It doesn't have to be, but it means that organizations and the individuals and leaders
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  need to have some level of self awareness, around what's going on with themselves, what
• 14:48
  examples they're setting, and, what that means for the people cascading down the line.
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  And that can be very difficult for people.
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  I think that is one of the main reasons that people don't implement like a a wider
• 15:01
  psychological health and safety or mental health strategy.
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  Because, really, leadership needs to be a role model.
• 15:07
  They need to role model.
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  You know, whether it's as basic as wearing a mask, to social distancing or some of the
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  physical stuff, but also psychological safety to your point.
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  If I'm anxious and I'm not able to articulate that to say my staff who knows I'm anxious and
• 15:25
  could tell that I'm, you know, because they get to, obviously, we work with people.
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  We get to know them.
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  But if I'm acting like nothing's wrong, but all my energy coming off me shows that I'm anxious,
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  and I'm maybe a little bit more quip or quip or quick to decision without looking at different
• 15:40
  perspectives, then how does that impact the people around me?
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  Because obviously they're feeling anxious.
• 15:46
  They're they're reading my energy And what state does that put the, you know, this the
• 15:51
  teams into and then in turn the organization?
• 15:54
  And, ultimately, the the concept that I've heard a lot is that they really don't care.
• 16:00
  I don't think they don't care.
• 16:02
  Nobody purposely goes out and says I don't care.
• 16:07
  I think they really do, but I think there's a lot of anxiety.
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  I used to do a lot of manager contact pages as well, right, in supporting, and I still do
• 16:13
  manager consultations.
• 16:15
  One of the biggest things there is the the personal anxiety of people because this and
• 16:20
  this is really your thing Roxanne, talking about being authentic, but talking about being
• 16:26
  transparent, and and those parts of lee that is true leadership to be able to do that, to have
• 16:33
  humility as a as a leader.
• 16:36
  That can be very anxiety provoking for people.
• 16:39
  You know, there's a lot of pressure for people to perform.
• 16:41
  And when we talk about the cost saver cost, cost center thing, people often are very
• 16:47
  worried that they're not gonna make numbers if they if they, you know, if they stop for a
• 16:51
  second or if they stop to be authentic, that it's gonna give people permission to you know,
• 16:56
  slack off because they're not feeling well.
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  And it takes a lot of courage to be authentic and to be transparent.
• 17:03
  And so that that is I think it's more fear than that people don't care.
• 17:08
  Absolutely.
• 17:09
  And I think that's what maybe when employees are disconnected, that's of perception of their
• 17:14
  leadership because the if the leader and their team and their executive team are unaware, and
• 17:20
  they're filtering that down, not with their unresolved, capacity, then the frontline or the
• 17:27
  Midland employee employees are perceiving it as a lack of caring, but sometimes it's oftentimes
• 17:32
  not a lack of caring from you and I being in the, you know, employee assistance world for
• 17:36
  years, What we know is a lot of times, and I did management consultations, you know, across
• 17:41
  my portfolio east to west coast.
• 17:43
  And the one thing without a doubt, and I'm sure you've done that globally too, is that people
• 17:48
  were often, were managers, and they potentially were managers for sometimes, you know, upwards
• 17:53
  of 35, 40 years.
• 17:55
  And they're calling us to do a management consultation because they don't know how to
• 17:59
  deal any with anything personally related so when is it?
• 18:03
  You know, I'm I'm okay with performance management and progressive discipline and, you
• 18:08
  know, going by the, you know, the union agreement, all those things.
• 18:11
  But as soon as it steps into anything personal, then they absolutely kinda cut off because they
• 18:17
  go, oh, no.
• 18:18
  I'll send you to a professional, but the The standard is showing us that really what we need
• 18:23
  is we need heightened skills, in our leadership from middle management all the way to the top
• 18:28
  because the more aware I'm a if if I'm aware of what my blockages are in leadership, it might
• 18:34
  if I'm aware of what my leadership story is.
• 18:37
  So mine is in is about honesty and integrity and having everybody, have a voice.
• 18:42
  Well, working through that and understanding what of my core values as a leader allows me to
• 18:48
  step forward.
• 18:49
  And when I feel out of control or a bit vulnerable, you know, I'm not suggesting that
• 18:55
  the leader you know, be so vulnerable that they're not caring for themselves, but they
• 19:01
  need to be able to show that human element so others can connect with them.
• 19:04
  Yeah.
• 19:05
  Absolutely.
• 19:05
  And that works across cultures.
• 19:07
  It creates trust, wisdom, please, and it and the authenticity binds people because now that
• 19:13
  the the means that you also care for the for the people around you.
• 19:18
  But if before COVID that, you know, there was research done because everybody talks about
• 19:23
  empathy, you need to have empathy, you need to have that empathic conversation, and even
• 19:28
  before that, there was research coming out that the majority of managers are not trained for
• 19:33
  that.
• 19:34
  They don't know how to do that.
• 19:36
  It's a real challenge.
• 19:38
  And in 2016, Brycewater has Coopers.
• 19:40
  They do an annual, an annual global CEO survey, and it's always around different things.
• 19:47
  And in 2016, One of the biggest concerns that was identified by the, global CEOs, and I'm
• 19:54
  just, I'm really around the globe and, you know, thousands of people that they talked to.
• 20:00
  One of their biggest challenge was to find people with the right soft skills.
• 20:06
  They're having no problem finding who can somebody who can be agile, IT, or whatever.
• 20:10
  What they're looking for are people with the right soft skills and their their other concern
• 20:15
  is in terms of retention and attracting talent, they recognize that they need to meet the need
• 20:22
  from from employees.
• 20:24
  There's a new generation of employees that really want to be acknowledged with, you know,
• 20:29
  with all their warts and and scars and their whole human that they bring to the workplace.
• 20:35
  They don't walk through the door to the workplace and then suddenly transform in
• 20:39
  employees.
• 20:40
  They come in as a human being, and they remain human being with all their foibles whatever
• 20:44
  else, and they wanna be recognized for that, and they wanna have space for that.
• 20:49
  You know, the global CEOs, they're they're the top leaders.
• 20:52
  They're very aware of that.
• 20:53
  And this is one of their biggest challenges for their for their businesses to be successful to
• 20:58
  find those people and to find a way within their organization to meet that that need of
• 21:03
  these different employees.
• 21:05
  So let's talk about steps for, anyone listening that wants to develop a mental health strategy.
• 21:12
  So, okay, I'm gonna say that most people have benefits.
• 21:16
  Right?
• 21:16
  They have some psychological benefits.
• 21:18
  They have an EAP program.
• 21:20
  Maybe they have a occupational, nurse, potentially maybe maybe a wellness committee
• 21:25
  might be a little bit, you know, in developmental, maybe they have an ad hoc.
• 21:30
  But what are some basic things that people should start implementing in order to start
• 21:37
  creating a policy, a mental health policy, and specifically now, to return to work.
• 21:43
  What are some things that people should be considering?
• 21:46
  Okay.
• 21:47
  I think the first thing is know your know thyself.
• 21:50
  So you need to understand where your employees are or you need to know where you are.
• 21:55
  And You know, in this, you can do that by having some stakeholder conversations, by
• 22:01
  looking at your stats, your absenteeism stats, by looking at your maybe a satisfaction survey
• 22:08
  to understand where things are, and this is particularly relevant.
• 22:11
  These things are already in place with organizations that have a level of of mental
• 22:16
  health awareness and mental health strategy.
• 22:19
  So and I don't think anybody is starting from point 0.
• 22:23
  Everybody has like the seed there.
• 22:25
  So it's about looking at what do I have and how can I grow that?
• 22:29
  The irony of course is that organizations that have not done well, throughout the pandemic and
• 22:36
  taken care of with people and not understood necessary to keep those people engaged, to keep
• 22:44
  those people, loyal to the organization, those pea those organizations are the ones that meet
• 22:51
  it most in that or paradoxically are gonna have the hardest time establishing a trusted
• 22:57
  strategy.
• 22:59
  And so one of the first things I think you need to do is, like I said, know yourself and own
• 23:03
  it.
• 23:03
  That's the first thing if you realize that, you know, we've not done this ideally.
• 23:08
  If leadership can say, you know what?
• 23:10
  And we talked about this, Roxanne as well amongst ourselves that it's difficult to do,
• 23:15
  but to understand the value of investing in your employees is 1, and then owning and
• 23:21
  saying, you know what?
• 23:22
  You didn't do a great job.
• 23:23
  Don't pretend you did a great job when you know you didn't and that you've alienated people.
• 23:28
  Just say, you know what?
• 23:29
  We didn't.
• 23:30
  We're learning, we're growing, we wanna do differently.
• 23:34
  We wanna hear from you, or this is what we're gonna do differently.
• 23:37
  And so that is that that own or taking that ownership and that humility is a huge step
• 23:43
  towards proving that you really mean it and creating some trust with people.
• 23:48
  And then looking at what's going on in my organization, you can you can understand some
• 23:52
  of these things going forward, but in looking at what are the likely scenarios that have
• 23:58
  played out with my people?
• 24:01
  Were they at home?
• 24:02
  Do I have primarily, young people with young families?
• 24:05
  Well, then you can kind of predict that if they were working from home, they had their kids at
• 24:11
  home, and that may have been very stressful for them.
• 24:14
  So these are things that you wanna think about.
• 24:16
  Like, what is that what may that mean for them going forward?
• 24:19
  Do you have people that were furloughed?
• 24:21
  What does that mean in terms of the anxiety that they may have had, about their economic
• 24:26
  security?
• 24:27
  And you need to be honest with them.
• 24:29
  So it comes still back to like that honesty.
• 24:31
  There is no, one thing that you can do.
• 24:35
  It's not like you can open up you know, a can of psychological health and safety, really it
• 24:41
  starts with knowing yourself and taking ownership of where you wanna go and what you've
• 24:45
  done.
• 24:47
  And then implement something and not understand what your employees are needing.
• 24:52
  It's kinda like, you might be addressing some of the needs to see for some of the people,
• 24:57
  but, you know, when you're looking at to see, you said like town halls or, asking the people
• 25:03
  that are that are left that did that had to go to the office.
• 25:07
  Let's say, a certain percentage of your population that had to go to work, and I've
• 25:11
  heard about that.
• 25:12
  Some people are like, I'm so happy at home and then other people are like, why do they get to
• 25:17
  stay home and I have to go to work?
• 25:19
  So there's a lot of deception that I was already developing there.
• 25:23
  And, like, to your point, and I know in our roles and in my role as an executive for years,
• 25:28
  when they were were disasters, we called them teens.
• 25:32
  So I wanna talk a little bit about that and a bit about the concept of the pandemic and, you
• 25:39
  know, how is it that we need to start to think about the world of work, from that perspective.
• 25:49
  And I think Samsung, you were talking a little bit about that, about the crises model, and
• 25:54
  what that mentality has done for us as as globally, and as a nation.
• 26:00
  And what are some of the things that employers really have to start to think about we're gonna
• 26:03
  we're we're gonna get through this, but I think we have to almost create different policies
• 26:08
  now.
• 26:09
  We will.
• 26:11
  Well, there are a lot of things that it has it's it's opened up a lot of awareness around
• 26:15
  gaps, for instance, around the refusal to work.
• 26:19
  What traditionally has not been covered in terms of people, you know, certainly in Canada
• 26:24
  and Ontario have the right to refuse to work in a dangerous environment.
• 26:29
  What that doesn't cover is I kept my workplaces clean, and we're doing shifts, we're doing
• 26:34
  everything the way we were supposed to.
• 26:36
  But I need to get on the subway with a bunch of protesters who refuse to wear a mask.
• 26:41
  So can I now say I'm not gonna come to work because I have no way of getting safely to the
• 26:45
  workplace But there are certainly in policies and mental health policies and return to work
• 26:51
  policies?
• 26:53
  There needs to be there are a lot of formal things that need to be thought out about how
• 26:57
  are we gonna respond to?
• 26:58
  How are you gonna respond to somebody who is having a hard time coming back to work because
• 27:03
  they have an underlying condition that puts them at higher risk so that if they catch it by
• 27:08
  going out on the subway to get to work or if they catch it in the workplace, what does that
• 27:15
  mean?
• 27:15
  What is the liability for employees, or employers if they catch the workplace or if
• 27:21
  somebody is not following the rules, and they're not wiping down the keyboard in between
• 27:26
  two people using it.
• 27:27
  So There's a lot of gaps that need to be filled around that, in the workplace and that need to
• 27:33
  be looked at.
• 27:35
  And so there's there's that's one thing that's that's happening.
• 27:38
  And there was something else Roxanne, and I need to go back to your original question,
• 27:44
  because I I kinda got sidetracked on the subway.
• 27:47
  Well, I think that I just that the fact is that that we have to create a lot a lot of new
• 27:52
  policies for future for to look at.
• 27:55
  We are living in a in a uncertain time, and these uncertainties, we may wrap it up with
• 28:00
  COVID at some point.
• 28:01
  But I think this is a new day where employers will have to start to think from a crisis model
• 28:08
  perspective, to have policy in place for future for psychological safety that we haven't
• 28:14
  thought about.
• 28:14
  Like, to your point, you know, traveling into Toronto, and I would you know, you know, in a
• 28:19
  crowded be a rail and a and a subway.
• 28:22
  And I if I'm concerned, and I'm, let's say at that point, I was pregnant and and I'm worried
• 28:26
  about being pregnant on a train, going to work and I something happens to myself or my baby,
• 28:32
  there's gonna be implications.
• 28:34
  So there's a lot more things for employees.
• 28:35
  To think about.
• 28:36
  Absolutely.
• 28:37
  And these are things but starting with the basics to your point, I mean, what are your
• 28:41
  points going through?
• 28:43
  What are you how are what are your experiences experiencing as the employer?
• 28:47
  And what are your teams going through?
• 28:50
  I think that's a good beginning point and to recognize that 20% and I often think, and then
• 28:55
  maybe the the numbers have changed, that 20% of your base gonna cost you the same money.
• 29:00
  And these are the people that don't take the time off, and these are the people that show up
• 29:04
  at work every single day but they are giving you depleted or decreased productivity around
• 29:10
  65 to 75%.
• 29:12
  And, you know, that term is presenteeism.
• 29:14
  How is presentism then going to be impacted in this new world?
• 29:18
  Where will that what would that number look like will be an interesting number for us to
• 29:22
  look at?
• 29:23
  Yeah.
• 29:23
  Absolutely.
• 29:24
  And I think there's two things that I would would mention about, you know, this moving
• 29:28
  forward, an add to what you're saying Roxanne is one that employers are gonna need to
• 29:33
  understand, you know, we're all we're very fixated on best practice, and you can establish
• 29:39
  best practice if you know what you don't know and you can figure it out.
• 29:44
  But the the with the COVID and with the uncertainty that we have, They need to
• 29:50
  understand that the best they can do is gonna be good practice for what's working right now
• 29:56
  because and or emergent practice.
• 29:58
  They're gonna need to develop new things because there are things that they know they
• 30:02
  don't know that they need to learn about, and there are things that they don't even know that
• 30:06
  they don't know about it because of the way things developing, and so they need to shift
• 30:11
  their expectations a bit and be flexible to respond and keep the finger on the pulse
• 30:16
  because in these circumstances where nothing is set in stone and we don't know what place
• 30:22
  ahead, you can't expect best practice.
• 30:26
  It will be an ongoing investment.
• 30:30
  Then the other thing I wanted to say to you that that is, you know, I always talk about the
• 30:33
  definition of mental health, and that mental health is not the opposite of not being sick,
• 30:38
  not having mental illness.
• 30:39
  So a lot of the mental health strategies that organizations have here around diagnosable or
• 30:46
  diagnosed, illness Whereas what we're talking about is in that presentism, somebody who's not
• 30:54
  able to cope, who's not having good feelings about work, or about life, or about That
• 30:58
  doesn't mean they have an illness.
• 31:00
  It just means that they're not productive.
• 31:03
  They can't contribute.
• 31:04
  They're not experiencing the sense of community all those things that go into mental health,
• 31:10
  they're they're not functioning well in the world around them.
• 31:13
  They're not connected to the world around them.
• 31:16
  And they're not having those positive feelings of well-being that are part of mental health.
• 31:21
  You can have that at that while you're also diagnosed with a mental illness.
• 31:25
  You can have you can lack that without actually being diagnosed, and I think that's another
• 31:31
  shift that people need to take a broader, a broader perspective and understanding,
• 31:37
  certainly with the presenteeism, that there are gonna be people no, they're not diagnosed and
• 31:41
  they don't have a DSM label.
• 31:43
  You know what?
• 31:44
  They're there, but they don't care.
• 31:46
  They can't invest.
• 31:47
  They're they're fatigued.
• 31:48
  They're dealing with grief.
• 31:51
  They're dealing with anxiety.
• 31:52
  And that can affect.
• 31:53
  And you need to address that.
• 31:54
  You need to give him a platform, and you need to make sure that you're not adding to it or
• 31:58
  escalating it by the way you're doing workplace.
• 32:01
  So we had a question asked, which was, how is it that an employer will know if their
• 32:08
  employees are having a tough time?
• 32:12
  Well, your stats pardon me.
• 32:15
  People often know about these things.
• 32:18
  Just by observing, right?
• 32:19
  Because people change.
• 32:20
  There's on the micro level, there is people are different than they were before.
• 32:25
  Right.
• 32:26
  So you can see, you know, when we, you know, when you do manager consultations and managers
• 32:30
  come in and say, you know, I'm worried about Joe.
• 32:33
  What do I do?
• 32:35
  One of the first things she says, well, what what are you seeing?
• 32:38
  You know, because Joe if there's a recurring pattern and Joe have changed, you know, in how
• 32:44
  they express themselves, maybe they can't regulate their emotions the way they used to,
• 32:48
  maybe they participate less or more in certain events, maybe they don't show up, they're not
• 32:54
  punctual.
• 32:55
  So there's all kinds of signs on a micro level for an individual that makes you makes make the
• 33:00
  manager aware that, hey, you know what?
• 33:01
  This person is not in the right place.
• 33:04
  They're not functioning the way that we're used to having the participator speak up or
• 33:09
  whatever.
• 33:10
  So that's one that's on a micro level.
• 33:12
  And I think on a on a larger level, you really wanna be looking at your, your team spirit,
• 33:18
  you're looking at, outcomes productivity outcomes, you're looking at disability stats,
• 33:26
  and you can look at those different things, perhaps complaints.
• 33:28
  There's all kinds of indicators when things are not going well.
• 33:32
  Because it leads to conflict.
• 33:34
  It needs to reduce productivity.
• 33:36
  It leads to absenteeism.
• 33:39
  And so those are all the kind of things that you can look at as indicators of, you know, is
• 33:43
  my population working the way they used to?
• 33:46
  Has something changed?
• 33:47
  And just what and maybe it's one particular team because they they were the ones that had
• 33:53
  to go in and do the cleaning.
• 33:55
  You know, do frontline work, whereas your, you know, your finance people and your HR are all
• 33:59
  sitting at home, but you're in a business where you have essential workers that are, you know,
• 34:05
  in a high risk, a high stress situations working.
• 34:08
  So those are all different ways that you can see it on a macro more macro level and on a
• 34:13
  micro level.
• 34:14
  So just different to look at, to to kinda decipher where you're at.
• 34:20
  What's the pulse of the organization?
• 34:22
  And what do you have in place and what are some of the things like you said?
• 34:27
  What I have to think is what is it that they don't know that they don't know that they'll
• 34:30
  have to implement time.
• 34:32
  And I think that's gonna be the new thing around strategy with, health and wellness is
• 34:37
  that, you know, employers have to be connected so connected to themselves and their industry
• 34:44
  and their employees that they're gonna have to develop things, I think, on the fly.
• 34:47
  So we had one, last question and, this has been a fantastic conversation.
• 34:53
  And I know you and I, we could talk about this probably all day long.
• 34:57
  But let's say an employer does their due diligence, right?
• 35:00
  They have, you know, created the physical safety.
• 35:04
  They, you know, they've they've, you know, address the psychological need for safety and
• 35:09
  emotional safety.
• 35:10
  They put things in place.
• 35:11
  They've ensured their, you know, their managers are adapt at meeting the needs of what the
• 35:16
  employee needs to do to return to work safely, and the employee still just refuses.
• 35:22
  Yeah.
• 35:23
  That's a very tricky one.
• 35:25
  There's two things to that.
• 35:26
  One of them, and this is the one that we already kind of touched on, is the idea that we
• 35:32
  don't have we're really in uncharted water.
• 35:36
  You know, people, for instance, not wanting to come into work because they can't get to work
• 35:41
  safely.
• 35:41
  That's one thing.
• 35:42
  And so the employer needs to think about how far is my need to accommodate for that person?
• 35:49
  The other thing is of course, you know, mental health, is a shared shared responsibility.
• 35:55
  So if I tell you, you know, I can't I'm so anxious don't want to leave my house, I don't
• 36:01
  want to come into the workplace because I'm afraid that if I touch something, I'm going to
• 36:05
  get sick and you've now created a safe space for me and you can You've documented that, and
• 36:10
  you've demonstrated that within your capabilities and the parameters that are
• 36:14
  reasonable to expect from you, you've created a space where I can be safe and where the risk of
• 36:20
  my becoming infected in the workplace is almost 0.
• 36:24
  It's like very and then I still say, but I'm so anxious, I don't wanna leave the house, then
• 36:32
  the employer does have the right say, but what are you doing for yourself?
• 36:36
  Just being anxious is not enough.
• 36:38
  And at that point, it really is a shared responsibility where both work together, and
• 36:43
  you can accommodate, you can provide resources, you can say, you know, here's somebody that you
• 36:47
  can talk to.
• 36:48
  I'm gonna give you access to for you to help you manage your stress and anxiety.
• 36:54
  And as and potentially, and I used to do a lot of these these manager consultations with
• 37:00
  people where managers really feel for the individual, and they really go out of their
• 37:04
  way, but where they where they often struggle is to then hold that individual accountable
• 37:10
  because it can't come to the point where you say, okay, I need to prove I need you to prove
• 37:15
  that you're actually you know, doing your bit to get up to productivity to overcome this
• 37:22
  issue, whether it's mental health issue, whether it's an anxiety issue, whether it's,
• 37:28
  you know, you're having issues at home, and now you can't come to work or whatever.
• 37:33
  You need to under address the underlying root cause.
• 37:36
  I can do what I can do in the workplace, and I can demonstrate that I've done that.
• 37:41
  But ultimately it's a shared responsibility between employer and employee, to work together
• 37:47
  for that to make that possible.
• 37:49
  So if the employee doesn't take, the initiative at that point, the employer has to decide what
• 37:54
  next steps they might need to to to deal with this, the situation effectively, which it may
• 37:59
  be perhaps a discipline or whatever.
• 38:02
  So Well, it's about it's about the productivity, right?
• 38:05
  Ultimately, the place, you're always still needing to look at how is this person working
• 38:09
  functioning in the contract and the expectations that I have of this person.
• 38:13
  What is the expected productivity?
• 38:14
  What is what is, you know, my what am I allowed to ask from this person?
• 38:19
  And if they're not meeting that standard of what I am legitimately allowed asked from that
• 38:23
  person.
• 38:25
  I can accommodate to a certain point, but that individual also needs to demonstrate that
• 38:30
  they're willing to do what they're what they need to do to be able to fulfill their part of
• 38:35
  the deal.
• 38:36
  Sorry.
• 38:37
  Well, Ramsey, this has been a fantastic commerce station.
• 38:40
  And, I know I've I've gained a lot and I'm sure everyone, this thing has also gained a lot.
• 38:46
  And, you know, if if people were wanting to reach out and to discuss a bit more about,
• 38:54
  strategy from, you know, the standards and affectives and what exists for them and they
• 38:59
  wanted to to reach you.
• 39:00
  Where where could they reach you?
• 39:02
  They could reach me at, I'm on LinkedIn under my name you can also find me on my my company
• 39:09
  website, which is, www.integralworkplacehealth.com, and, my email
• 39:16
  is rmeles, rme l l e s, all lowercase, one word, at integralwh.com.
• 39:25
  Well, thank you so much again, and for everyone listening, as we step into this new face, be
• 39:33
  conscious you know, that there will be some need for change in reference to your strategy
• 39:39
  and to return to work policy.
• 39:41
  Look at what does exist and look at the gaps, speak to people, have town halls, talk to your
• 39:47
  stakeholders, talk to your customers, to ensure that you get the right strategies in place.
• 39:52
  And even if you put one strategy in place, ensure that it's a beginning point to address
• 39:57
  the concerns that you're finding.
• 39:59
  And for leaders, the ones that are thinking, well, I think I need to get more connected to
• 40:06
  myself in order to have those conversations please connect with me and to do a coaching
• 40:11
  call so we can talk a little bit more about authentic leadership and what that to lead your
• 40:16
  your teams.
• 40:17
  So again, thank you so much for your time.
• 40:19
  Thanks for being my first, my first live and for everyone that's attended.
• 40:24
  It's been fantastic.
• 40:26
  I've enjoyed, doing my podcast for 2 years and I look forward to a whole lot of other times
• 40:31
  when I can do more lives.
• 40:32
  Bye bye, everyone.
• 40:35
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious about things that
• 40:43
  really matter in our lives.
• 40:45
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Durgesh.