Latest / The Knife: A True Crime Podcast / Fake Kidnapping. Real Terror.

Transcript

Fake Kidnapping. Real Terror. · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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Speaker 1: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
0:07
Speaker 1: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
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Speaker 1: exactly right media.
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Speaker 2: And this man gets on the phone and he goes,
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Speaker 2: listen here, I have your daughter. If you call anybody,
0:18
Speaker 2: you call the police. I'm going to pop her somemach
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Speaker 2: so full of drugs. Hamiway with her and drop her
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Speaker 2: in Mexico and you never see your daughter again.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Patia Eaton, I'm Hannah Smith.
0:44
Speaker 1: This week we're speaking with Jennifer di Stefano. Jennifer is
0:47
Speaker 1: a mother of four living in Arizona. One day in
0:50
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, she received a phone call that brought
0:53
Speaker 1: her to her knees. Her daughter had been kidnapped, or
0:56
Speaker 1: at least that's what it seemed like.
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Speaker 3: As a result of that phone call, Jennifer has become
1:01
Speaker 3: outspoken about the risks of AI generated fraud and has
1:04
Speaker 3: testified before Congress urging the US Senate to address the
1:08
Speaker 3: rising number of scams. Let's get into the interview. Hi, Jennifer,
1:15
Speaker 3: thank you so much for taking the time to speak
1:18
Speaker 3: with me today.
1:19
Speaker 4: Hi, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate.
1:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, I came across your story. I immediately knew I
1:26
Speaker 3: wanted to talk to you on the show because you
1:29
Speaker 3: have had multiple experiences now with AI that actually led
1:33
Speaker 3: you to speaking to the US Senate, and it's impacted
1:38
Speaker 3: you personally and your family, and I think it's such
1:41
Speaker 3: an important discussion for us to be having.
1:43
Speaker 4: Thank you.
1:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really appreciate the bringing awareness to it too,
1:47
Speaker 2: so that hopefully you can help other people.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, let's start off with you just introducing yourself and
1:52
Speaker 3: maybe telling us a little bit about your life.
1:55
Speaker 4: Sure. My name's Jennifer D. Stefano. I'm a mother of
1:58
Speaker 4: four kids too, boys, two girls.
2:01
Speaker 2: My oldest is turning twenty one and my youngest is fifteen,
2:05
Speaker 2: so they're pretty close in age and they keep me
2:07
Speaker 2: pretty busy.
2:09
Speaker 3: That's awesome. Yeah, four kids, You're brave. So take me
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Speaker 3: to this moment in time in your life, just before
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Speaker 3: this experience that we're going to get into.
2:20
Speaker 2: So it was January of twenty twenty three. I have
2:26
Speaker 2: kids that like to compete in different types of sports
2:28
Speaker 2: that takes us all over the place. So I have
2:30
Speaker 2: some competitive winter athletes and snowboarding and ski racing, and
2:34
Speaker 2: then I have a dancer, and so she was preparing.
2:37
Speaker 2: My dancer was preparing for an upcoming competition, and my
2:41
Speaker 2: younger son and my daughter Brianna were both preparing for
2:45
Speaker 2: a obstacle course type of racecourse up north in the snow.
2:49
Speaker 2: My older son was down in the valley with me
2:52
Speaker 2: as well as my younger daughter, and then my older
2:55
Speaker 2: daughter my younger son were up at the mountain preparing
2:58
Speaker 2: for the ski races.
3:00
Speaker 1: You may have seen ski racing during the Winter Olympics.
3:03
Speaker 1: A skier flying down a steep alpine course, weaving through
3:06
Speaker 1: gates at incredible speeds. It's thrilling to watch. It's also
3:11
Speaker 1: a demanding and dangerous sport. As a parent with kids
3:14
Speaker 1: in the sport, it's definitely not for the faint of heart.
3:17
Speaker 1: Every training run, every race comes with the understanding that
3:21
Speaker 1: the phone could ring and you could get news that
3:23
Speaker 1: one of your children has been injured.
3:26
Speaker 2: When my kids started in winter sports, the coach pulled
3:30
Speaker 2: me aside and he asked me if I have good
3:31
Speaker 2: health insurance, So that I was thinking.
3:36
Speaker 4: About that a couple times. I'm like, why are my
3:38
Speaker 4: kids in sports?
3:39
Speaker 2: That there's literally a helicopter pad to help entire situations.
3:44
Speaker 2: But they are also very well trained. They're very cautious,
3:47
Speaker 2: They're very conscientious. So I have full trust in them
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Speaker 2: that they got it. They know how to be careful
3:54
Speaker 2: and how to still enjoy the sport.
3:56
Speaker 1: Still, Jennifer's kids compete in high risks, and despite that,
4:01
Speaker 1: Jennifer is remarkably calm. It takes a lot to rattle her.
4:06
Speaker 1: That said, she has gotten one of those dreaded phone calls.
4:09
Speaker 1: Her older daughter, Brie was on the other end of
4:12
Speaker 1: the phone, crying after she'd slammed into a slalom gate.
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Speaker 1: The crash left her with a painful bone contusion, and
4:19
Speaker 1: ski racing injuries are just an accepted part of the sport,
4:23
Speaker 1: But now Brie was preparing for an even riskier event,
4:26
Speaker 1: ski cross, where multiple racers charged down the course at
4:30
Speaker 1: the same time, badly not just the terrain, but also
4:33
Speaker 1: each other. But Jennifer said, if there was one place
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Speaker 1: her daughter felt at home, it was in that kind
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Speaker 1: of high pressure, competitive environment. She thrived when the stakes
4:43
Speaker 1: were highest.
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Speaker 4: So Bree is the one who came home.
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Speaker 2: One day she was out training for skiing and she's like,
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Speaker 2: I'm gonna start racing, and like, you've never been on
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Speaker 2: a racecourse before, and it's nine o'clock at night. She said, yeah,
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Speaker 2: there's a race tomorrow. I wanted you to sign me up.
4:57
Speaker 2: And I like, we don't have any race gear. I
4:59
Speaker 2: had done some little bit of racing when I was younger,
5:01
Speaker 2: but not like this, And like, we don't have race gear.
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Speaker 4: You don't even know how to go around gates.
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Speaker 2: And we pulled up a YouTube video and I showed
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Speaker 2: her how you go around just giant solemn gates. And
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Speaker 2: the next day she entered the race and she was
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Speaker 2: the only one in town to break a minute. So
5:17
Speaker 2: this particular competition is actually a higher risk one because
5:20
Speaker 2: it's called border Cross and Skiercross, and it's modeled after motocross,
5:25
Speaker 2: so it's an obstacle course of jumps and turns and rollers. Well,
5:29
Speaker 2: four competitors are on course together, so because it can
5:33
Speaker 2: become a contact sport since they're changing lanes and trying
5:36
Speaker 2: to gain their lines, it's one of the ones that
5:39
Speaker 2: actually is more nerve racking because of the higher risk
5:42
Speaker 2: of injury. So she was just doing the practice training.
5:46
Speaker 2: So they have a full day of practice training the
5:48
Speaker 2: day before the races so everyone can become familiar with
5:50
Speaker 2: the course. So she was up there with her little
5:53
Speaker 2: brother who's a snowboarder, and she was just running the
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Speaker 2: course and pretty basic pre training, nothing out of ordinary.
6:02
Speaker 1: Jennifer and her family live in Arizona, and that weekend
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Speaker 1: in January of twenty twenty three, she and her husband
6:08
Speaker 1: were dividing and conquering. He was up north with two
6:11
Speaker 1: of their kids for the snowboard and ski cross competitions,
6:15
Speaker 1: and Jennifer was three hours south with the other two kids.
6:18
Speaker 1: Her younger daughter was in a dance competition. It was
6:21
Speaker 1: Friday afternoon and Jennifer and her daughter had just arrived
6:25
Speaker 1: in the parking lot of the competition. They were getting
6:28
Speaker 1: out of the car walking through the parking lot when
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Speaker 1: her phone rang. It was an unknown number, which normally
6:35
Speaker 1: she wouldn't answer, but that weekend, in particular, she was
6:37
Speaker 1: on high alert. Knowing that her older daughter, Brie, was
6:41
Speaker 1: competing in this ski cross, high risk downhill race. Jennifer
6:46
Speaker 1: wanted to be reachable at all times in case Brie
6:49
Speaker 1: or her son were injured.
6:51
Speaker 2: I thought about, well, doctors have to call from unknownumbers
6:55
Speaker 2: I'm familiar with that with my younger son has a
6:57
Speaker 2: number of doctors. But anyway, so I thought to myself, like,
7:00
Speaker 2: you know what, I should answer it just in case
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Speaker 2: someone's hurt, and that could be a medical or hospital calling.
7:06
Speaker 2: So because she was up racing, they were up racing,
7:08
Speaker 2: I decided to answer the phone. So I have everything
7:11
Speaker 2: in my hand, and I was concerned that if someone
7:13
Speaker 2: got hurt, I didn't want to miss the call.
7:15
Speaker 4: So I decided to answer the call.
7:17
Speaker 2: I'm gathering my computer, my bag's all this stuff, and
7:20
Speaker 2: on the phone is my older daughter crying and sobbing,
7:24
Speaker 2: and she says mom and crying and sobbing, and I
7:28
Speaker 2: was like, heyvery, what's up. And she's like, mom, Mom,
7:30
Speaker 2: I messed up. And she keeps crying and sobbing. And
7:34
Speaker 2: for me, I've had that phone call before. It was
7:36
Speaker 2: like last time she called when she hurt her leg.
7:39
Speaker 2: But it wasn't a horrific crying and sobbing. It was
7:43
Speaker 2: just like an injured crying and sobbing. So I said, okay,
7:46
Speaker 2: well what happened? And she's crying and sobbing, and I
7:48
Speaker 2: hear a man say, lay down, put your head back
7:51
Speaker 2: and giving her firm instructions, And at that point I
7:53
Speaker 2: got nervous because I'm thinking she's being wrapped up in
7:56
Speaker 2: a deboggan or she's being taken down and ernie and
8:00
Speaker 2: so then I start to get a panic and worried.
8:02
Speaker 3: Your first thought hearing these mens voices in the background
8:06
Speaker 3: is they're some sort of like paramedic situation.
8:09
Speaker 4: Yeah.
8:10
Speaker 2: My first response to her crying and sobbing and staying
8:13
Speaker 2: she messed up, and the way he was instructing her
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Speaker 2: lay down and put her head back, I'm thinking it's
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Speaker 2: completely paramedic.
8:18
Speaker 4: I'm thinking it's ski patrol.
8:20
Speaker 2: They're wrapping her up. That's very common. So for me,
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Speaker 2: it was just I'm thinking the similar had happened to her.
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Speaker 2: She hadn't raised in a couple of years, she hadn't
8:31
Speaker 2: been on that type of course ever in her life.
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Speaker 4: I'm thinking she hit terrain and she got injured.
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Speaker 2: So with that, I asked her what happened, and she
8:40
Speaker 2: had the instructions, laid down and put her head back.
8:42
Speaker 2: She's still crying and sobbing, and then she goes, mom,
8:45
Speaker 2: these bad men, have me, help me, help me, And
8:47
Speaker 2: then she sounds like she's actually having the phone like
8:50
Speaker 2: ripped away from her. So she's still crying and sobbing,
8:53
Speaker 2: but her voice starts to fade as if there's distance.
8:57
Speaker 2: And this man gets on the phone and he goes, listen.
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Speaker 4: Here, I have your daughter.
9:00
Speaker 2: If you call anybody, you call the police, I'm gonna
9:03
Speaker 2: pop her somemach so full of drugs.
9:04
Speaker 4: Have I away with her and drop her in Mexican.
9:07
Speaker 4: You never see your daughter again.
9:09
Speaker 1: Jennifer had mentally prepared herself to get a call about
9:12
Speaker 1: an injury, but this, this was something she never could
9:16
Speaker 1: have imagined. Who were these men and how did they
9:19
Speaker 1: have her daughter? Panic surged through her.
9:23
Speaker 2: And at that point was when I was walking through
9:25
Speaker 2: the parking lot because I was trying to get to
9:27
Speaker 2: my other daughter.
9:28
Speaker 4: I remember vividly.
9:29
Speaker 2: I literally had my hand on the door handle of
9:32
Speaker 2: the dance studio and I put the phone on mute,
9:35
Speaker 2: and I just ripped open the door and just start
9:37
Speaker 2: screaming for help.
9:38
Speaker 4: So I didn't realize. Sorry, a little emotional. I hate
9:42
Speaker 4: going back to the moment sometimes, so I didn't realize.
9:44
Speaker 3: My hold on It's okay, take your time, you take
9:48
Speaker 3: your time. You're doing great, You're doing great.
9:51
Speaker 4: Just what do you think you got? You're like okay
9:52
Speaker 4: with it, You're like not, Yeah, my younger daughter was
9:55
Speaker 4: standing there. I think it hurts me more knowing how
9:58
Speaker 4: much it hurt my younger daughter too. So she was.
10:01
Speaker 2: Standing there at the desk waiting for me, and I
10:06
Speaker 2: didn't realize because I was in present to it at
10:08
Speaker 2: the moment.
10:09
Speaker 4: That she was standing there.
10:10
Speaker 2: So she heard all the threats and the man's voice,
10:14
Speaker 2: and at that point I didn't hear a breathe anymore.
10:17
Speaker 2: In the background, there was four moms around the corner
10:21
Speaker 2: who I knew we've all grown up together and dance,
10:23
Speaker 2: and so I had the phone on speaker and they
10:26
Speaker 2: just sat there kind of frozen, and I asked someone
10:29
Speaker 2: to record, but it didn't end up happening because everyone
10:31
Speaker 2: just kind of went into action mode, which was fabulous.
10:35
Speaker 2: So one called nine one one. She went outside of
10:37
Speaker 2: the studio, go on the phone, nine one one another one.
10:39
Speaker 4: I was telling my.
10:41
Speaker 2: Younger daughter, like, call your brother, or call your father,
10:44
Speaker 2: or call people, because I knew that my husband would
10:46
Speaker 2: pick up my daughter's phone, but he wouldn't pick up
10:48
Speaker 2: strange numbers usually so but she just stood there paralyzed.
10:52
Speaker 2: So another mom ran to her. She's like, okay, let's
10:54
Speaker 2: go call your dad. Let's go call people and give
10:57
Speaker 2: me your phone. And then another mom sat with me
11:00
Speaker 2: listening to it, and she was just frozen.
11:04
Speaker 1: Jennifer and the other dance parents flew into action. Someone
11:07
Speaker 1: called nine one one. Another mom sat silently beside Jennifer
11:11
Speaker 1: listening into the phone call. All the while, Jennifer didn't
11:14
Speaker 1: want the man on the phone to know that she
11:16
Speaker 1: was around other people and that they had called the police.
11:20
Speaker 2: He started making all his threats, and then he started
11:22
Speaker 2: demanding money. So he originally demanded a million dollars and
11:26
Speaker 2: I was like, how is that possible? That's going to
11:29
Speaker 2: be possible. He started yelling at me, saying a bunch
11:32
Speaker 2: of profanity, and then came down to fifty thousand dollars.
11:35
Speaker 2: With the fifty thousand dollars, I then asked him, okay, well,
11:39
Speaker 2: you know, am I supposed to wire to you? How
11:41
Speaker 2: am I supposed to get you the money? And he said, oh, no,
11:44
Speaker 2: there's no wire. We're going to pick you up. And
11:47
Speaker 2: I'm excuse me what He's like, You're going to get
11:49
Speaker 2: all the fifty thousand dollars in cash and we're going
11:52
Speaker 2: to pick you up. We're gonna put a bag over
11:53
Speaker 2: your head so you don't know where you're going. You're
11:55
Speaker 2: going to be in a white van. That's how I
11:57
Speaker 2: was supposed to identify the vehicle. And then we'll take
11:59
Speaker 2: you to your doll and if you don't have all
12:00
Speaker 2: the cash and you and your daughter are both dead. Meanwhile,
12:03
Speaker 2: my younger daughter's hearing this whole conversation.
12:06
Speaker 1: Things were escalating quickly, but Jennifer said there was nothing
12:10
Speaker 1: she wouldn't do to save her daughter. And then suddenly
12:14
Speaker 1: everything changed.
12:17
Speaker 2: The other mom who was outside on the phone with
12:19
Speaker 2: Nima One comes in and she's like, hey, just to
12:22
Speaker 2: let you know there's a scam going on, and like,
12:24
Speaker 2: was it a voice recording. It's like, Noah, was not
12:27
Speaker 2: a recording. And the guy heard her asking me a question,
12:29
Speaker 2: didn't really hear it and started yelling at me like
12:31
Speaker 2: I told you not to talk to anybody. I'm like, oh,
12:32
Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out how to get the money.
12:34
Speaker 2: I'm asking about, like how I can you know, get
12:37
Speaker 2: the fifty thousand dollars for you? And so then he
12:39
Speaker 2: started demanding a pickup location, and so he's like where
12:43
Speaker 2: are you at, We're gonna come get you, blah blah blah,
12:45
Speaker 2: And obviously I'm not going to give them my location.
12:48
Speaker 2: And so then my friend came back in and she's like, hey,
12:51
Speaker 2: nine on one is pretty sure it's a scam, you know.
12:54
Speaker 2: And then at that moment, the other mom with my
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Speaker 2: younger daughter's phone was able to get my husband on
13:00
Speaker 2: the phone, who was able to find Brie, who was
13:03
Speaker 2: just resting in a room after skiing, and so I
13:07
Speaker 2: didn't believe that she was really safe with him, so
13:10
Speaker 2: I demanded to talk to her. And meanwhile, the man's
13:12
Speaker 2: yelling at me to make arrangements for pickup.
13:14
Speaker 4: Where am I?
13:15
Speaker 2: What's my address? And so I got the phone with
13:17
Speaker 2: my daughter, Brianna, and I wouldn't hang up with him
13:20
Speaker 2: until i'd spoke to her. And then I just asked
13:22
Speaker 2: her a bunch of questions and she's like, Mom, I
13:24
Speaker 2: have no idea what you're talking about. I'm here, I'm
13:27
Speaker 2: with dad. I promised you, I'm safe, We're good. Like,
13:30
Speaker 2: I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
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Speaker 3: At what point, then, were you confident that she could
13:36
Speaker 3: safely end this call with whoever had called you without
13:41
Speaker 3: jeopardizing Breeze safety.
13:45
Speaker 2: So after I spoke to her and then I finally
13:49
Speaker 2: grasped that she was okay. I then got on the
13:52
Speaker 2: phone with the men and I called them out for
13:54
Speaker 2: the scam. I told him it was the Lois so Low,
13:57
Speaker 2: and they kept saying that they had her, it wasn't
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Speaker 2: a scape, and that they really were going to kill her,
14:01
Speaker 2: and then they were going to come for me, And
14:03
Speaker 2: then I got upset with them, like, you're not only
14:05
Speaker 2: not gonna call my daughter, you're not coming for anybody,
14:08
Speaker 2: And then we got upset with each other, and I
14:10
Speaker 2: finally I was just realized that there was an audience
14:12
Speaker 2: of girls behind me and that wasn't anything that they
14:14
Speaker 2: need to be present too.
14:15
Speaker 4: So I just hung up.
14:16
Speaker 2: And at that point I just remember just dropping on
14:19
Speaker 2: the floor and just sobbing, just trying to like reel
14:21
Speaker 2: my head around what had just happened.
14:24
Speaker 1: Once she realized that her daughter was safe, the relief
14:27
Speaker 1: came rushing in, but she was deeply shaken, and as
14:32
Speaker 1: she replayed the call over and over in her mind,
14:34
Speaker 1: another fear took hold. The men were local. What if
14:38
Speaker 1: they knew where she lived? What if they came after
14:41
Speaker 1: her family, Jennifer called the police, expecting that there might
14:44
Speaker 1: be officers already on their way to the scene, but
14:47
Speaker 1: it turns out they hadn't dispatched an officer because they
14:50
Speaker 1: realized it was a scam call.
14:52
Speaker 2: So I then called the police apartment. I'm like, hey,
14:54
Speaker 2: I want to report this because I don't know if they.
14:57
Speaker 4: Know where I am. I don't know if they know
14:58
Speaker 4: where my daughter is.
14:59
Speaker 2: I don't know if they are coming for us because
15:00
Speaker 2: they made the threats that they were going to kill
15:02
Speaker 2: us both still, and they're like, all we can do
15:05
Speaker 2: is chalk it up as a prank call, and we
15:07
Speaker 2: can have a police officer call you if it makes
15:09
Speaker 2: you feel better from an unknown number.
15:12
Speaker 4: I don't want any more unknown numbers calling me right now.
15:15
Speaker 3: I'm it's also like if it makes you feel better,
15:18
Speaker 3: It's like someone just called and told me they were
15:21
Speaker 3: going to kill my daughter if I didn't give them money, right,
15:24
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, just like pure adrenaline in that moment
15:27
Speaker 3: of like you're surviving this moment of terror and then
15:32
Speaker 3: collapsing on the floor and they're like it's a prank.
15:36
Speaker 2: Yeah. The person I called the police department, she was
15:39
Speaker 2: very sweet, and she was very compassionate and kind about it.
15:42
Speaker 2: She's like, there's nothing I can do. Unfortunately, there's no laws.
15:46
Speaker 2: How would we pursue this. A police officer's job is
15:49
Speaker 2: to enforce the laws, but they don't write the laws,
15:51
Speaker 2: so they can't enforce something that doesn't exist, even though
15:54
Speaker 2: they can have compassion for it.
16:02
Speaker 1: The reality sunk in that this had all been a ruse.
16:05
Speaker 1: These men never had her daughter. In fact, they probably
16:07
Speaker 1: didn't know much about her at all. Jennifer would come
16:10
Speaker 1: to realize that she had been a victim of an
16:12
Speaker 1: AI voice scam. Someone had used AI to generate the
16:16
Speaker 1: voice of a young woman in distress, and it sounded
16:19
Speaker 1: exactly like her daughter, Brie.
16:22
Speaker 3: But on the phone call did he use Bree's name.
16:27
Speaker 4: On the phone call, Bree never did mention her name.
16:29
Speaker 2: It was sobbing and crying and it was mom, and
16:33
Speaker 2: it was instructions to put her head down, lie back,
16:36
Speaker 2: and then she told me the bad man had her.
16:38
Speaker 4: But there was no mention that I remember of her name, Brie.
16:43
Speaker 3: But it did sound like her to.
16:45
Speaker 2: You, oh one hundred percent. I never doubted it was her.
16:48
Speaker 2: It was a familiar phone call, like when I had
16:50
Speaker 2: received when she had ran into the ski gate. It
16:53
Speaker 2: was nothing out of the ordinary. I was not panicked
16:56
Speaker 2: in the beginning part of the conversation. It wasn't oh
16:58
Speaker 2: my gosh, what's wrong. I'm pretty mellow about handling injuries
17:04
Speaker 2: or illness or things like that. I've had a couple
17:07
Speaker 2: situations before where they our younger son almost died from
17:11
Speaker 2: a genetic disorder we were unaware of at the time
17:13
Speaker 2: when he was a baby, So I've been in those
17:16
Speaker 2: tenuous situations. So I've kind of come at it with Okay,
17:19
Speaker 2: no one's dying, We're fine, which is an extreme response.
17:22
Speaker 2: So I wasn't heightened until I heard the man giving
17:25
Speaker 2: her instructions, and then she started telling me that these
17:28
Speaker 2: bad men have her.
17:31
Speaker 1: This type of scam is becoming more common with the
17:33
Speaker 1: accessibility of AI. All it takes is a few seconds
17:37
Speaker 1: of someone's voice that could be taken from the Internet,
17:39
Speaker 1: such as a social media site, and fed into an
17:41
Speaker 1: AI platform for someone to generate entire sentences in a
17:46
Speaker 1: voice that sounds just like that person. Fortunately, Jennifer was
17:50
Speaker 1: with a group of people when this call came in,
17:52
Speaker 1: and she took quick action by calling the police and
17:55
Speaker 1: getting in touch with her daughter. But often that's not
17:58
Speaker 1: the case, and it's really easy to fall for scam
18:00
Speaker 1: like this. Once it happened to Jennifer, it seemed like
18:03
Speaker 1: everywhere she looked, she heard stories of people in her
18:05
Speaker 1: community who'd experienced something similar.
18:09
Speaker 2: There was a mom in our dance studio whose sister
18:11
Speaker 2: had a phone call and it was her daughter's voice
18:13
Speaker 2: from her daughter's phone. It showed up on her phone
18:15
Speaker 2: as coming in from her daughter. She wired fifteen hundred
18:18
Speaker 2: dollars and went somewhere in Mexico, untraceable.
18:21
Speaker 4: That was the end of it.
18:22
Speaker 2: But the physicality of demanding to pick me up, that's
18:26
Speaker 2: what shocked me. And I'm like, and then I'm trying
18:28
Speaker 2: to navigate that conversation. Okay, well if this isn't real,
18:32
Speaker 2: like Naima want to saying, but then I do get
18:34
Speaker 2: picked up. Now it has turned into a real kidnapping.
18:36
Speaker 2: Now it is a real story. But how does that
18:39
Speaker 2: how far it has to go? As well?
18:42
Speaker 4: It just it?
18:44
Speaker 2: And then that was my concern too, Well, they're demanding
18:46
Speaker 2: to pick me up. They've got to be local, they
18:48
Speaker 2: have to be around they How do I not know
18:50
Speaker 2: that they're not down the street. Because they're making arrangements
18:54
Speaker 2: to come physically pick me up. They're not getting an
18:56
Speaker 2: hours drive away, So how does that play out?
19:00
Speaker 1: Al though the local police couldn't do much to help
19:02
Speaker 1: in the moment, Jennifer filed a report anyway. She wanted
19:05
Speaker 1: what had happened documented in case it happened again. She
19:08
Speaker 1: also couldn't shake the unsettling thought that these scammers seemed local.
19:12
Speaker 1: They had asked for her location, they claimed they were
19:15
Speaker 1: sending a white fan to pick her up, and then
19:18
Speaker 1: some time later another scam was similar details surfaced in
19:22
Speaker 1: the Phoenix area. That's when Jennifer heard from the police again.
19:26
Speaker 1: Investigators wondered whether the two incidents might be connected.
19:30
Speaker 2: So there was a situation locally where there was another
19:35
Speaker 2: lady in a neighboring town who had this happened to her,
19:38
Speaker 2: And when they picked the guys up, there was bags
19:41
Speaker 2: of cash with a couple of other victims that were
19:43
Speaker 2: in it and it was delivered to their place of work.
19:46
Speaker 4: So with that.
19:48
Speaker 2: Pickup, when the police called me with that, they were
19:50
Speaker 2: more interested in knowing more details about our story because
19:53
Speaker 2: it might have been the same people. There were some
19:56
Speaker 2: demographic similarities, but I never did get closure if it
19:59
Speaker 2: was them, And in the whole pursuit of things too. Originally,
20:03
Speaker 2: when we reached out even with our phone carrier, they
20:07
Speaker 2: heard the story and then they took it upon themselves,
20:09
Speaker 2: and then they reached out to me and said, hey,
20:11
Speaker 2: we were able to track the origin of that phone
20:14
Speaker 2: number and we've turned it over to authorities, and that
20:18
Speaker 2: was wonderful. I'm really thankful to AT and T for that,
20:20
Speaker 2: But I don't know where that led at that point.
20:24
Speaker 3: So when did you decide, like, I'm going to speak
20:27
Speaker 3: about this, I want people to listen, and I want
20:29
Speaker 3: them to change the way we think about AI and
20:34
Speaker 3: how we can protect ourselves from it.
20:37
Speaker 2: So that whole conversation about how do we want to
20:40
Speaker 2: move forward with this started with when one of their
20:43
Speaker 2: moms in the dance studio told me about how her
20:45
Speaker 2: sister had had that happened to her at the dance
20:48
Speaker 2: competition that we were at two weeks prior. And she's like,
20:50
Speaker 2: and that's what I was running back and forth with.
20:52
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my gosh, I wish I would have known.
20:54
Speaker 2: Had I known, this conversation had been so much different,
20:57
Speaker 2: and so I put it on next door to.
21:00
Speaker 4: Let the neighbors know.
21:01
Speaker 2: And then with that, I had a news channel reach
21:04
Speaker 2: out to me and asked me if they could do
21:06
Speaker 2: a story on it, one of the local news channels,
21:08
Speaker 2: and so I agreed, and we did the filming, and
21:12
Speaker 2: I didn't hear anything for a couple months, and then
21:15
Speaker 2: literally we're sitting there on Easter Sunday and I went
21:18
Speaker 2: up to go use the ladies room and I come
21:20
Speaker 2: back and my kids are like, you were just on TV.
21:22
Speaker 4: I'm like, wait what. They're like, You're on a commercial.
21:25
Speaker 4: I'm like I was.
21:26
Speaker 2: And then the next day it broke and I was
21:28
Speaker 2: flying to take our daughter to Texas for a volleyball tournament,
21:32
Speaker 2: and then my phone just blowing up as I'm on
21:34
Speaker 2: the plane and I get off the plane, and then
21:36
Speaker 2: it just started to go from there. And so what
21:38
Speaker 2: regionally was just a hey, local just to be aware,
21:42
Speaker 2: I wish I would have known ahead of time, turned
21:45
Speaker 2: into this national conversation, which I mean, it goes far
21:49
Speaker 2: and wide. It's not even it's not geographically restricted. It
21:53
Speaker 2: is a universal conversation everybody needs to be having.
21:56
Speaker 1: Surprisingly, this is not Jennifer's only experience with a terrifying hoax.
22:01
Speaker 1: The second incident was when her daughter Brie, was headed
22:03
Speaker 1: to college. It was an entirely different scenario than the
22:07
Speaker 1: scam phone call. This time, Brie and both their parents
22:09
Speaker 1: were attending her freshman orientation. All the new students and
22:13
Speaker 1: parents were there at a welcome assembly.
22:16
Speaker 2: It's a Catholic university, it's Villanova, and there was two
22:19
Speaker 2: thousand people I think that were out there. I was
22:21
Speaker 2: a paralwell mass where the families have masks, and then
22:24
Speaker 2: you go and do a picnic and you say goodbye
22:26
Speaker 2: to your incoming freshmen and then splaining blay gosh, So
22:29
Speaker 2: I took a little video and so anyway, we're there.
22:33
Speaker 2: The priest goes quiet, the alarms start going off on
22:36
Speaker 2: the phones, people start standing up, and then the priest
22:38
Speaker 2: tells us to go. And my daughter looks at me
22:41
Speaker 2: and she's like, mom, there's a shooter. We have to run,
22:43
Speaker 2: And like what And this still gives me chills, And
22:46
Speaker 2: I wasn't really processing that, and all of a sudden
22:48
Speaker 2: we heard boom boom, boom bom boom. It sounded like shots,
22:51
Speaker 2: and people just ducked. Everyone dropped, and then everyone started running.
22:54
Speaker 2: And so it was two thousand people fleeing in a
22:57
Speaker 2: center area, surrounded by building, not knowing the campus because
23:01
Speaker 2: we're all incoming freshmen. And she's like, remember the libraries
23:04
Speaker 2: right here. So she's I've got a hold of her
23:07
Speaker 2: and we're running and I'm getting trampled, and so someone
23:10
Speaker 2: broke my hold of her and I had to push
23:12
Speaker 2: back forward, and then people were yelling at each other,
23:13
Speaker 2: and my husband had gone to the men's room, so
23:16
Speaker 2: he didn't know where we were.
23:17
Speaker 4: He's trying to call me.
23:18
Speaker 2: I'm trying to hold on he with one arm to
23:20
Speaker 2: run in through the library door, and I'm like, go
23:23
Speaker 2: to the library.
23:23
Speaker 4: Go to the library.
23:24
Speaker 2: It's like, I don't where the library is. I'm like, well,
23:25
Speaker 2: I don't know where you are. I don't know how
23:26
Speaker 2: to navigate the campus. We're new too, so I was like,
23:30
Speaker 2: just run find shelter. And I'm like, I have getting
23:32
Speaker 2: the door. They're going to close the doors. So I
23:34
Speaker 2: got off the phone with him. We're running through the library.
23:37
Speaker 2: We go upstairs. All the doors are locked because it's orientation,
23:41
Speaker 2: so it's not open campus yet.
23:43
Speaker 1: Jennifer and Breed took shelter in a restroom in the
23:46
Speaker 1: library with several other students and parents. Jennifer had been
23:49
Speaker 1: through active shooter drills before, and as we've established, she's
23:53
Speaker 1: good in a crisis. It takes a lot to rattle her.
23:56
Speaker 1: So she took on the role of helping to quiet
23:59
Speaker 1: and calm the others in the room, some of them.
24:02
Speaker 4: Calling their moms and whatnot, like, we have to quiet.
24:04
Speaker 2: And then reports were coming back that three people were shot,
24:07
Speaker 2: that they were confirmed three people were shot, and all
24:10
Speaker 2: of a sudden, the news story started coming up. We
24:12
Speaker 2: were watching the newsreels we're doing on silent. We didn't
24:14
Speaker 2: know where on campus. The shooter was. Gissney Chills, and
24:18
Speaker 2: then a cop came by to the door and then
24:21
Speaker 2: started banging the door, asking the shooter was in there
24:23
Speaker 2: with us, and.
24:24
Speaker 4: We didn't know who it was. We're like, well, how
24:25
Speaker 4: do we know you're not the shooter?
24:27
Speaker 2: So he slid his badger beneath the door, We opened
24:31
Speaker 2: the door, he took off his belt. He showed us
24:33
Speaker 2: how to secure a commercial door with a belt and
24:36
Speaker 2: helped us drag a table in there. So the police
24:38
Speaker 2: were they were petrified. They were trying to secure everybody.
24:41
Speaker 2: Some time went by the FBI came, we had National Guard.
24:46
Speaker 2: Our campus was like a barricade of police cars.
24:49
Speaker 3: How much time is passing from the moment that the
24:52
Speaker 3: alarms go off and you hear shots being fired, to
24:57
Speaker 3: the FBI coming and the police coming. I mean, how
25:00
Speaker 3: much time are you in this bathroom?
25:01
Speaker 2: The response tide of the police was really fast, actually,
25:04
Speaker 2: and at that point in time they had isolated it
25:07
Speaker 2: to the Western Campus, which is where my husband was,
25:09
Speaker 2: So my husband was roaming around Western Campus trying to
25:12
Speaker 2: get into a building. The entire process between all these
25:16
Speaker 2: layers ended up being about two two and a half hours,
25:19
Speaker 2: So we were in that bathroom for a good I
25:22
Speaker 2: think it was about an hour and a half hour
25:26
Speaker 2: fifteen because from the bathroom we got moved downstairs. So
25:29
Speaker 2: when the FBAI came through and they were clearing the building,
25:31
Speaker 2: they moved us to downstairs in the lobby.
25:34
Speaker 1: It's truly the stuff of nightmares. For over an hour,
25:37
Speaker 1: they waited terrified, they read reports that people had been killed.
25:41
Speaker 1: Swat teams ran through the halls. Finally they got moved
25:45
Speaker 1: outside of the building and were told it was safe,
25:48
Speaker 1: and that is when another report came through.
25:52
Speaker 2: And then the president was outside saying, hey, we think
25:54
Speaker 2: this is a hoax, and we're like, wait, what he's like,
25:56
Speaker 2: But we're just confining and clearing everybody to be one
26:00
Speaker 2: hundred percent sure before we officially announce it. So yeah,
26:04
Speaker 2: then they welcomed us back into the area where we
26:07
Speaker 2: had masks in the center courtyard. They knew that it
26:11
Speaker 2: was a hoax. It had been confirmed a hoax. I
26:14
Speaker 2: guess what had happened. We actually ended up walking behind
26:16
Speaker 2: the chief of police randomly towards our car after the
26:19
Speaker 2: mass was over, and he was ghost white and he
26:24
Speaker 2: was like, I had no reason to believe that this
26:26
Speaker 2: wasn't real, and he was still trying to process in
26:29
Speaker 2: his head. I guess what came out is they were
26:31
Speaker 2: calling as if they were in the university and there
26:34
Speaker 2: was gunshots being fired behind them, and they were saying
26:37
Speaker 2: that they were injured students, and then they were trying
26:39
Speaker 2: to track their location tractor to law school, and there
26:42
Speaker 2: was multiple phone calls confirming the same thing. So that's
26:45
Speaker 2: why they responded the way they did, And then it
26:47
Speaker 2: happened to multiple other universities. It happened again three days
26:49
Speaker 2: later at Villanova.
26:50
Speaker 3: But you didn't when you were running after you heard
26:54
Speaker 3: the alarms going off, did you hear any shots?
26:57
Speaker 4: So we thought we heard gunshots. We all thought we
26:59
Speaker 4: heard gun shots. We all dove.
27:00
Speaker 2: What happened was is when people jumped up scared, the
27:04
Speaker 2: metal chairs were flipping and hitting the ground, and that
27:07
Speaker 2: was the.
27:07
Speaker 4: Boom boom boom in the distance that we heard.
27:09
Speaker 2: Oh so there was like three or four chairs that
27:11
Speaker 2: had people had jumped up and they had flipped, and
27:14
Speaker 2: everybody around us thought it was gunshots because they said
27:17
Speaker 2: confirmed active shooter, Seek shelter immediately.
27:21
Speaker 4: And then it was jump jump jump boom, boom boom,
27:23
Speaker 4: and then.
27:24
Speaker 2: Everyone around us. We all ducked, and then we all
27:27
Speaker 2: jumped up and then we started running.
27:29
Speaker 3: It's amazing because, you know, as terrible as it is
27:33
Speaker 3: what happened to you earlier on in this story where
27:37
Speaker 3: you're being told that Breeze been taken and they're trying
27:40
Speaker 3: to get this ransom money from you, you can at
27:42
Speaker 3: least understand this is a financially motivated crime, right, But
27:46
Speaker 3: what is the motivation here for someone trying to scare everyone?
27:52
Speaker 3: So thinking there's an active shooter on campus in the
27:54
Speaker 3: middle of a mass ceremony, you know, like what are
27:57
Speaker 3: they trying to accomplish.
27:59
Speaker 4: So with this situation, the alleged person.
28:03
Speaker 2: I guess you'd say, is a minor and they got
28:06
Speaker 2: picked up in February of this year, and the allegation
28:12
Speaker 2: is that it was for There's this dark web that
28:16
Speaker 2: people charge like one hundred bucks to do this and
28:19
Speaker 2: they'll do it for fun.
28:21
Speaker 3: It's so sad because it's like, here's someone who's a
28:24
Speaker 3: child doing this, and you know, I think we all
28:27
Speaker 3: want to give children the benefit of the doubt that
28:30
Speaker 3: they don't fully understand the impact of something like this
28:33
Speaker 3: they're doing. But it's also like, Okay, why is this
28:37
Speaker 3: child on the dark Web and what's going on with
28:41
Speaker 3: them in their life that they think that this is
28:44
Speaker 3: something fun for them to do. And what responsibility do
28:49
Speaker 3: we have as parents in those scenarios to be responsible
28:54
Speaker 3: for our children's actions, which I think we're seeing play
28:57
Speaker 3: out in courtrooms where they're been shootings perpetrated by minors
29:03
Speaker 3: at schools and parents are being held responsible. Yeah, that
29:07
Speaker 3: is just terrifying. And so yeah, in the span of
29:10
Speaker 3: a couple of years, AI scams traumatized you and your
29:16
Speaker 3: daughter and you know, also your other family members twice,
29:20
Speaker 3: and they're only getting more and more advanced. And then
29:24
Speaker 3: we have this other side of AI that I think
29:27
Speaker 3: we should all be like ready to embrace and learn
29:31
Speaker 3: how to use. But everything is advancing so quickly, and
29:35
Speaker 3: there are people out there who are going to use
29:37
Speaker 3: it to hurt other people. And you know, I think
29:40
Speaker 3: you speaking to the Senate for example, and sharing your
29:43
Speaker 3: story is important because personal stories compel people to make
29:48
Speaker 3: change and progress, I think more than just broadly saying, look,
29:52
Speaker 3: there's a problem with scams, and you know, I want
29:55
Speaker 3: to ask also kind of on the same note, on
29:58
Speaker 3: our show, we talk about the ripple effect of a
30:01
Speaker 3: crime on people's lives, and because so often, you know,
30:06
Speaker 3: you read a headline or a new story and someone's
30:09
Speaker 3: had this difficult thing happen to them, but for them
30:12
Speaker 3: it like sort of reverberates through their life and the
30:15
Speaker 3: choices that they make. What does that look like for you?
30:19
Speaker 2: That's definitely the case. I think I got so emotional
30:22
Speaker 2: beforehand speaking about my younger daughter hearing when I ran
30:26
Speaker 2: into the dance studio, because she spoke for the first
30:29
Speaker 2: time just a couple of weeks ago, and she was
30:32
Speaker 2: giving her story of what she had heard, and she's like, honestly,
30:35
Speaker 2: I haven't gone back there in so many years. And
30:39
Speaker 2: she was the last person to be interviewed, and so
30:42
Speaker 2: having her listened to me and then listened to her
30:45
Speaker 2: older sister first, So Aubrey was my youngest, and then
30:49
Speaker 2: she started speaking. She's like, I just started shaking, and
30:51
Speaker 2: she's like, and I couldn't understand why my body was shaking,
30:54
Speaker 2: almost the point where they were like, do you need
30:56
Speaker 2: to stop?
30:56
Speaker 4: And she's like, no, I'm okay.
30:57
Speaker 2: She's like psychologically, like cognitively, I'm very aware that this
31:02
Speaker 2: is not real and have moved past it.
31:04
Speaker 4: But she's just like, well, my body is going to
31:05
Speaker 4: the shaking.
31:06
Speaker 2: And so she wants to study neuroscience and a lot
31:09
Speaker 2: of that is is that you know the neurological pathways
31:12
Speaker 2: of like response and how to handle response and anyway
31:17
Speaker 2: in that process, it kind of reaffirmed her passion.
31:20
Speaker 4: But she wrote a story after this had happened.
31:23
Speaker 2: So in school the next year they had to write
31:25
Speaker 2: a story called scar and so you had to pick
31:28
Speaker 2: something that scarred your heart, loss of grandparent, loss of
31:31
Speaker 2: a pet, you know, something that hurt you. She wrote
31:33
Speaker 2: about the time her sister was kidnapped, and about a
31:36
Speaker 2: couple months after the AI situation, our dog was viciously
31:40
Speaker 2: attacked on our backyard by a wild animal and we
31:42
Speaker 2: lost him. And instead of writing about his name is Chester.
31:45
Speaker 2: Instead of writing about Chester, she wrote about her sister.
31:48
Speaker 2: And so her friends asked, her, well, but Chester was real.
31:50
Speaker 2: You really lost Chester, you really saw him after the attack,
31:54
Speaker 2: but your sister wasn't real. She's like, but in those
31:56
Speaker 2: just few minutes that felt like a half an hour,
31:59
Speaker 2: in those few minutes was real, and that's way more horrifying.
32:02
Speaker 2: She's like, everything was going through my brain of what
32:04
Speaker 2: this man was threatening to do to my sister, what
32:06
Speaker 2: he was doing to my sister, how my sister was
32:07
Speaker 2: feeling was going to happen. My mom, that's the most
32:10
Speaker 2: horrific thing I've ever experienced in my life. And she's like,
32:12
Speaker 2: and now I know what fear feels like.
32:16
Speaker 1: The idea that Breeze kidnapping wasn't real, or that the
32:19
Speaker 1: school shooting wasn't real is only one way to look
32:22
Speaker 1: at the situation, because in the minds and bodies of
32:25
Speaker 1: those who experienced the fear of those events, it was real.
32:30
Speaker 1: For a moment at least, finding out that those responsible
32:34
Speaker 1: for these events were scammers at the other end of
32:36
Speaker 1: a phone call didn't make the fear that they perpetrated
32:40
Speaker 1: any less. Real mental health experts say that these type
32:44
Speaker 1: of hoax events can lead to very real PTSD and
32:47
Speaker 1: people who experience them.
32:49
Speaker 2: So on that lasting effect of crime. You know, even
32:52
Speaker 2: with me with just talking now, I'm usually not the
32:54
Speaker 2: very I don't usually break down and cry. It's only
32:58
Speaker 2: a couple of times where I'm like it starts to
32:59
Speaker 2: get me and like wait, why am I reacting? Like
33:01
Speaker 2: oh yeah, you still your body still has that and
33:04
Speaker 2: your brain and your subconscious still holds it in there,
33:07
Speaker 2: so still does drive your thoughts, your feelings, your body
33:11
Speaker 2: reactions and ways.
33:13
Speaker 3: This is a trauma response, is to you a response
33:16
Speaker 3: like in the moment that you're on the phone with
33:18
Speaker 3: the scammers, you're trying to problem solve because you want
33:20
Speaker 3: your daughter to be safe, and then as soon as
33:23
Speaker 3: the call ins you collapse. I think that's adrenaline. That's
33:27
Speaker 3: a mom going into this mode of like, Okay, I
33:31
Speaker 3: can deal with my own fear later. I have this
33:33
Speaker 3: other priority right now.
33:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very When we were in the when
33:38
Speaker 2: we were locked in the bathroom. The girl one of
33:42
Speaker 2: the girls, so we're all from different parts of the
33:44
Speaker 2: country and so all came from you know, small town,
33:47
Speaker 2: rural versus big city. And she was on the phone
33:51
Speaker 2: with her mom and she had never been through a
33:53
Speaker 2: drill before and she was sobbing and crying. Her mom's screening.
33:57
Speaker 2: Her mom doesn't wanted to get out the phone. I'm like,
33:58
Speaker 2: you have to get out the phone, and it's like no,
34:00
Speaker 2: and her mom's like, no, you can't get off the phone.
34:02
Speaker 2: And you're like, you have to get uf the phone
34:03
Speaker 2: because it's so loud that we're if they get in
34:06
Speaker 2: this building, they're gonna know we're in here. Like, you
34:08
Speaker 2: have to get off the phone. You have to be
34:09
Speaker 2: I know it's hard, but you have to be quiet.
34:12
Speaker 2: And her mom's just freaking out. She's freaking out and
34:14
Speaker 2: she doesn't want to let her daughter go. Like you
34:16
Speaker 2: tell your mom for your safety, she has to get
34:18
Speaker 2: off the phone with you, or you can sit on
34:20
Speaker 2: the phone, but you have to be quiet. You cannot
34:22
Speaker 2: be screaming and crying. Like it's just putting everybody at risk,
34:25
Speaker 2: and especially yourself. It's not helpful for you.
34:28
Speaker 4: Like, I know that fear. I'm literally with my daughter
34:30
Speaker 4: right now.
34:30
Speaker 2: I'm like, now, I'm like living in the moment with
34:32
Speaker 2: you in a different capacity.
34:33
Speaker 4: Yeah, like I've got you. We'll be okay. I'll take
34:36
Speaker 4: every precaution for you. Literally. I I know what else
34:40
Speaker 4: to do. I just know it with them, And I
34:42
Speaker 4: started praying Hail Mary. And in Hail Mary, you.
34:45
Speaker 2: Know, it talks about Hail Mary, full of grace, lads
34:47
Speaker 2: with the buss are that among sinners? And blessedly for
34:49
Speaker 2: the woman Jesus, And it says, Holy Marry, Mother of God,
34:51
Speaker 2: pray for sinners now at the hour of our death.
34:53
Speaker 2: And every time I said that, I kept thinking, this,
34:55
Speaker 2: is this the hour of our death? Is this the
34:57
Speaker 2: hour of our death? And like, well, you know, at
35:00
Speaker 2: least you know it's God's will. I don't know what
35:03
Speaker 2: to say at this point, but that I kept hanging
35:05
Speaker 2: on those words, and is now the hour of our death?
35:08
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
35:10
Speaker 4: Yeah, and end of being a hoax, a horrible hoax
35:13
Speaker 4: for a cheap payout.
35:20
Speaker 3: And your husband. Meanwhile, I was on campus, I'm sure,
35:23
Speaker 3: just like worried so much about you guys, and in
35:26
Speaker 3: a different location, not knowing you know, what was going
35:29
Speaker 3: on moment to moment, it's like unthinkable.
35:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was over where they had determined that the
35:36
Speaker 2: shooter was originally, and so of course he's this guy
35:40
Speaker 2: running around. I'm trying to like tell him, text him,
35:43
Speaker 2: and then he wasn't responding. I'm like, you have to
35:46
Speaker 2: understand where you are. You need to find safety. He's like,
35:49
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna lay outside.
35:50
Speaker 4: I was like, go gonna let me in.
35:51
Speaker 2: He's like, so, I'm just hiding hind the bush. But
35:53
Speaker 2: I was a helicopter above him. So he's like, do
35:55
Speaker 2: they think I'm the shooter?
35:56
Speaker 3: Like maybe, I mean, well, that's like the I think
35:59
Speaker 3: the real risk here someone gets shot because the law
36:03
Speaker 3: enforcement has been so misled to believe that they're looking
36:06
Speaker 3: for an active shooter. And I mean, I don't know
36:09
Speaker 3: the laws there, but I'm assuming people can carry weapons
36:12
Speaker 3: with the right permit. And then it's like someone gets
36:15
Speaker 3: their weapon out thinking that there's a risk, and then
36:17
Speaker 3: they get shot. I mean, I don't know if they're
36:19
Speaker 3: allowed on college campuses ever, but you know what I mean,
36:21
Speaker 3: it's just anyone could be mistaken in a moment of
36:25
Speaker 3: like pure fear and adrenaline.
36:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, accidents can always there's always a risk totally and
36:31
Speaker 2: especially too, like you said, and that's a good point
36:34
Speaker 2: to their law enforcement. Speaking to the chief of police,
36:37
Speaker 2: he was so ghost white. He was still like, how
36:40
Speaker 2: is this possible? How is this real?
36:42
Speaker 4: And everyone's on high alert and they don't even know
36:44
Speaker 4: what they're fighting, they don't know what they're looking for,
36:47
Speaker 4: and so then they're putting this tenuous situation too, and
36:50
Speaker 4: it's really hard to navigate, and it's hard to navigate,
36:53
Speaker 4: you know, even more moving down into AI about what's real,
36:55
Speaker 4: what's not real?
36:56
Speaker 2: What is the truth that what's not a real threat?
36:59
Speaker 2: So my concern now was that happened twice at Villanova
37:02
Speaker 2: back to back. Right, have another university, So now if there,
37:05
Speaker 2: does this now enable a real shooter to take advantage
37:08
Speaker 2: of situation for real shooter come on campus and everyone's
37:11
Speaker 2: gonna be like, oh, it's just another AI threat, like
37:13
Speaker 2: and ignore it when it's actually That was my biggest
37:15
Speaker 2: fear with my daughter is like, don't ever dismiss any
37:18
Speaker 2: threat because there are real situations with real kidnappings, with
37:22
Speaker 2: real shooters on campus like you're talking about. And then
37:25
Speaker 2: if we become desensitized, we become more vulnerable too.
37:28
Speaker 3: It's a great point. Yeah, it's like if you get
37:32
Speaker 3: so used to a scam, and I mean you talk
37:34
Speaker 3: about this and you're in the speech you gave for
37:37
Speaker 3: the Senate, it's we're designed to react when someone calls
37:42
Speaker 3: us in need and that they're a loved one, and
37:44
Speaker 3: you know, you don't want to desensitize people to that
37:47
Speaker 3: right or any of it, or a fear of an
37:49
Speaker 3: active shooter. You want people to act like it's a
37:51
Speaker 3: life or death situation.
37:54
Speaker 1: On June thirteenth, twenty twenty three, Jennifer had the opportunity
37:57
Speaker 1: to share her story by testifying before the US Senate.
38:01
Speaker 1: She spoke about the experience of getting that phone call
38:04
Speaker 1: with her daughter's cries and screams, and then being told
38:08
Speaker 1: that Brie had been kidnapped, only to realize it was
38:10
Speaker 1: all a scam. Jennifer was there to raise awareness about
38:14
Speaker 1: the increasing number of scam calls that use AI technology
38:18
Speaker 1: to clone humans' voices. She urged Congress to take this
38:23
Speaker 1: issue seriously and act in the best interest of the
38:26
Speaker 1: American people. She wrote in her statement quote AI is
38:30
Speaker 1: revolutionizing and unraveling the very foundation of our social fabric
38:34
Speaker 1: by creating doubt and fear in what was once never
38:38
Speaker 1: questioned the sound of a loved one's voice. One reason
38:42
Speaker 1: she's speaking out is to urge lawmakers to adapt to
38:45
Speaker 1: the rapidly advancing technology. When Jennifer realized that day on
38:49
Speaker 1: the phone that Brie was safe and she hadn't been kidnapped,
38:53
Speaker 1: Jennifer was still on the phone with the scammers and
38:56
Speaker 1: she threatened them, saying she would find them and catch
38:59
Speaker 1: them so that they could not do this to anyone else.
39:03
Speaker 1: But after she hung up and spoke to law enforcement,
39:05
Speaker 1: the reality set in. They had not technically committed a crime,
39:09
Speaker 1: no money had been exchanged, no one had been kidnapped.
39:13
Speaker 1: What could she legally do?
39:15
Speaker 4: When I found out that there's an AI scam?
39:18
Speaker 2: I was so thankful, with nine one telling us that
39:23
Speaker 2: you're thankful, But then you're also like, well, what just happened?
39:25
Speaker 4: And where can this go?
39:27
Speaker 2: And that's also it's interesting too because even at her university,
39:31
Speaker 2: so the president has said multiple times, he's like, well,
39:32
Speaker 2: it wasn't real, But for those soon as to experience it,
39:35
Speaker 2: and those families experienced it, the fear of that moment
39:38
Speaker 2: and then being told, you know, through the media, because
39:41
Speaker 2: they were told, you know, because the police had three
39:44
Speaker 2: confirmed that were injured via phone, that.
39:47
Speaker 4: There were three shots.
39:48
Speaker 2: I mean, there was no reason for us not to
39:50
Speaker 2: have that fear that we were under this threat for
39:53
Speaker 2: two hours because there was even confirmed people down with shots,
39:57
Speaker 2: and so reliving that situation to sit there and then say, well,
40:01
Speaker 2: it wasn't real.
40:02
Speaker 4: It was ai.
40:03
Speaker 2: Yes, you're right, it wasn't and not not being real.
40:05
Speaker 2: I'm so thankful for not being real. My goodness as
40:07
Speaker 2: the best outcome you can have, but that fear and
40:10
Speaker 2: that living it was real.
40:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's also taking very real resources in that moment,
40:16
Speaker 3: from you know, the FBI, local law enforcement. I can
40:20
Speaker 3: only imagine who else showed up to try to figure
40:22
Speaker 3: out what was going on. And then in the meantime,
40:25
Speaker 3: there's other real emergencies happening, and you have all of
40:29
Speaker 3: these resources over here for an active shooting that isn't happening.
40:34
Speaker 3: So many consequences.
40:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another great point, is that distraction and diversion
40:39
Speaker 2: as a tactic too.
40:41
Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad that you guys are all okay now
40:43
Speaker 3: and that it wasn't real, but I understand, it doesn't
40:45
Speaker 3: mean it wasn't harmful.
40:48
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And I think it's that where that's why
40:53
Speaker 2: we need to really wrap our hands not just around awareness,
40:55
Speaker 2: but then also the call to actions. And there's been
40:58
Speaker 2: so many actions that have been taken, which I'm really
41:00
Speaker 2: very thankful of.
41:00
Speaker 4: There's definitely a lot more though that we can do.
41:02
Speaker 4: And look what happened with the school.
41:04
Speaker 2: We can't even premeditate all the ways that it's going
41:07
Speaker 2: to change our lives too, which is also difficult.
41:10
Speaker 4: Yeah.
41:11
Speaker 3: I think we're going to see a lot more of this, unfortunately,
41:14
Speaker 3: and we're going to have to find a way to
41:16
Speaker 3: fight it. Really. Well, thank you so much for taking
41:20
Speaker 3: the time to speak with me today.
41:22
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
41:25
Speaker 4: And thank you so much for everything you're doing with
41:27
Speaker 4: sharing on these stories to help people.
41:32
Speaker 1: Well, that was our interview with Jennifer.
41:34
Speaker 3: The fact that this has impacted her and her family
41:38
Speaker 3: twice now is I think such an indicator. You know,
41:43
Speaker 3: it's anecdotal because it's one person's experience, but I don't know,
41:47
Speaker 3: I think it truly indicates how quickly these AI scams, hoaxes, fraud,
41:55
Speaker 3: how quickly. It's all developing. I mean the first story
41:58
Speaker 3: was harrowing, and then when she told me about the second,
42:01
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, terrifying, terri.
42:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know, and it just is only going
42:07
Speaker 1: to continue to happen and change with AI.
42:10
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it's like you're glad that it wasn't a
42:12
Speaker 3: real active shooter situation, but at the same time, like, yeah,
42:17
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, of course it's it's not an active
42:19
Speaker 3: shooter in real life, but all the dangers aside from
42:23
Speaker 3: the actual shooter are still there. Like she was getting
42:26
Speaker 3: trampled at one point. People were freaking out, understandably, and
42:31
Speaker 3: the trauma is probably still with people who experienced that
42:35
Speaker 3: regardless of the fact that it was a hoax.
42:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely this idea of like what's real and what's
42:41
Speaker 1: not real. The fear and the hours of thinking that
42:46
Speaker 1: there's an active shooter or the time that she thought
42:49
Speaker 1: that her daughter was kidnapped, that's still a real experience
42:52
Speaker 1: that she had that impacts her body and mind and
42:56
Speaker 1: you know, like stays with you.
42:58
Speaker 3: You know. I think it was important Jennifer first spoke
43:00
Speaker 3: also to the resources that have to go into every
43:05
Speaker 3: single one of these calls even though there was no
43:07
Speaker 3: actual shooter, and what that's taking away from when other
43:11
Speaker 3: people are calling in with emergencies where maybe there is
43:15
Speaker 3: someone with a gun.
43:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like the amount of people in law enforcement
43:20
Speaker 1: that we've spoken with who have said something along the
43:22
Speaker 1: lines of, you know, agencies are about twenty years behind
43:25
Speaker 1: the times and that's just because of resources and updating
43:29
Speaker 1: bureaucratic systems. And so I like that she spoke at
43:34
Speaker 1: the US Senate because I do think that this is
43:36
Speaker 1: an issue that needs to be taken seriously. We need
43:40
Speaker 1: leaders who are aware of technology and can really do
43:45
Speaker 1: something about it. But also I was looking up some
43:48
Speaker 1: things that people can do on their own, you know,
43:51
Speaker 1: to try to safeguard themselves against this type of thing
43:56
Speaker 1: while we figure out as a society how to help people, right,
44:00
Speaker 1: because I think most people, if they got a phone
44:02
Speaker 1: call and they heard their child's voice, or their parents voice,
44:06
Speaker 1: or someone that they know's voice, there's a real tendency
44:11
Speaker 1: to believe that that we're not really trained to question
44:14
Speaker 1: is that real or not.
44:16
Speaker 3: Well, And even if you wanted to question it, even
44:19
Speaker 3: if you had the wherewithal to question it, the stakes
44:23
Speaker 3: feel and could be very high. You're like, if I
44:26
Speaker 3: take a minute to question this and I'm wrong and
44:29
Speaker 3: it's real, then what Yeah. And so to some people,
44:34
Speaker 3: you know, maybe they're not aware of these scams, so
44:37
Speaker 3: they immediately try to do whatever this person is asking
44:41
Speaker 3: of them. But even if you are, it's like if
44:44
Speaker 3: you hear, if you feel that you hear the voice
44:47
Speaker 3: of a loved one on the other line, I mean,
44:49
Speaker 3: it could make it really difficult to judge the situation
44:53
Speaker 3: from a more sort of I don't know what the
44:55
Speaker 3: word is discerning perspective.
44:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the things that I came across
45:01
Speaker 1: that I really like is having a secret family codeword
45:06
Speaker 1: that you don't put an email or text or anywhere digitally,
45:10
Speaker 1: but that everyone in your family knows this code word
45:14
Speaker 1: so that you can double check. Like I'm thinking about
45:17
Speaker 1: the scam where someone called your grandpa and pretended to
45:21
Speaker 1: be you. Yeah, you know, let's say you're talking with
45:24
Speaker 1: someone and it sounds like your family member's voice calling
45:28
Speaker 1: you and saying I need you to wire me twenty
45:30
Speaker 1: thousand dollars right now. You know, having a secret family
45:33
Speaker 1: code word that you review regularly cool. Just tell me
45:36
Speaker 1: the secret family code word if they can't tell you.
45:40
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one piece of information that could be
45:42
Speaker 1: really helpful, right.
45:44
Speaker 3: Yeah. Actually, my mom, my dad, and my sister we
45:48
Speaker 3: came up with a secret family code word. And in
45:52
Speaker 3: the last year or two, I think, because maybe a
45:55
Speaker 3: little bit of what happened with my grandpa thinking I
45:58
Speaker 3: was calling him from jail, came up with it. And
46:01
Speaker 3: my mom called me like a few months ago and
46:02
Speaker 3: she's like, you know, we were all talking and we
46:04
Speaker 3: all forgot what it was, but we thought, Patia remember,
46:07
Speaker 3: and I was like, yeah, I do remember. And I
46:08
Speaker 3: told them, Okay, good, you got to remember. You remember.
46:13
Speaker 3: That's an important part of this. And I should come
46:15
Speaker 3: up with one for my husband and our kid. But
46:19
Speaker 3: I fear i'd be in the same situation with three
46:22
Speaker 3: year olds talking to know.
46:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, maybe once she gets a little bit older.
46:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, my husband's not going to pick
46:29
Speaker 3: up he's at work.
46:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's less likely to be scammed because he doesn't
46:34
Speaker 1: answer the phone.
46:35
Speaker 3: He doesn't answer the phone. Yeah, good luck to you.
46:38
Speaker 4: Yeah.
46:38
Speaker 1: You know. Another strategy that I think is good is
46:42
Speaker 1: just delaying as much as you can. Yeah, which is
46:46
Speaker 1: easier said than done. When you're thinking that someone you
46:49
Speaker 1: love is in danger, I think it's good to remember
46:52
Speaker 1: that the person on the other end of the line
46:55
Speaker 1: if it were real, right, Let's say they do have
46:57
Speaker 1: someone you love and they're trying to get money. The
47:00
Speaker 1: goal is to get your money, is not to hurt
47:03
Speaker 1: your loved one, hopefully you know, so you know that
47:07
Speaker 1: they actually want something from you as well. So there's
47:11
Speaker 1: all these ways you can delay and keep them on
47:15
Speaker 1: the line, but try to use different delay tactics to
47:20
Speaker 1: be able to contact other people. Like the fact that
47:23
Speaker 1: Jennifer happened to be around people, had the presence of
47:27
Speaker 1: mind to put the phone on mute and tell everyone
47:30
Speaker 1: very quickly what was going on around her so that
47:32
Speaker 1: they could jump into action and try to contact her daughter.
47:34
Speaker 1: Contact the police is so helpful. But if you're like
47:38
Speaker 1: home alone for instance, or you're not around people, you
47:42
Speaker 1: need time to try to contact someone, whether that's leave
47:45
Speaker 1: your house and find a neighbor or whatever it is.
47:49
Speaker 1: And so yeah, just delaying, delaying, figuring out different ways
47:53
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, well I got to call my banker, Okay,
47:55
Speaker 1: I need to do this, this and this, you know.
47:58
Speaker 3: And like if this happened and see you talk about it,
48:02
Speaker 3: because I think that it's truly the more you know.
48:04
Speaker 3: I mean, Jennifer knew people that this had happened to
48:08
Speaker 3: and that was I think a big part of her
48:11
Speaker 3: being able to take a step back in a time
48:13
Speaker 3: of like your maternal instinct kicking in and being like,
48:16
Speaker 3: I hear my daughter's voice in distress. I mean that
48:19
Speaker 3: could easily cloud someone's thinking for sure, because people are
48:24
Speaker 3: starting to understand that being duped by scammers not something
48:29
Speaker 3: to be ashamed of. Their sharing and it's so brave.
48:31
Speaker 3: I mean, we had Chancey on the show who obviously
48:34
Speaker 3: had a devastating experience with an AI scam or not
48:37
Speaker 3: maybe partially AI scam, but definitely online and that was
48:43
Speaker 3: so hard to hear. But we received so many emails
48:46
Speaker 3: since then saying I'm going to show this to my mom,
48:48
Speaker 3: and my parents are going through this and I need
48:51
Speaker 3: to be able to talk to them and help them
48:53
Speaker 3: understand there's nothing less about them if they have fallen
48:56
Speaker 3: for this. But we have to talk about it. Yeah,
48:58
Speaker 3: definitely talking about it. It is great and it sucks
49:02
Speaker 3: that we have to protect ourselves because we don't have
49:05
Speaker 3: a way of like being protected from this yet by
49:11
Speaker 3: government agencies, law enforcement. I mean, it's a major uphill
49:15
Speaker 3: battle for sure.
49:17
Speaker 1: But the reality is is if you send someone money,
49:21
Speaker 1: especially if it's not a bank transfer, but if it's
49:24
Speaker 1: like if you get cash out and give someone money,
49:26
Speaker 1: or if you send it over crypto, it's just the
49:29
Speaker 1: likelihood of ever getting that back is so incredibly low,
49:33
Speaker 1: and there's just not enough resources to address that. So yeah,
49:37
Speaker 1: I mean it's good to have these sort of self
49:39
Speaker 1: protection ideas top of mind.
49:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean, in this case, it was something
49:44
Speaker 3: so scary, like the thought of your child being kidnapped.
49:47
Speaker 3: But in many cases it's like your bank is calling you,
49:51
Speaker 3: well know they're not, and if they are, hang up
49:53
Speaker 3: and call them back mm hmm. And yeah, you know,
49:56
Speaker 3: try to do those things. But I mean, yeah, Jennifer's
49:59
Speaker 3: story blew my mind, and I'm so glad that she
50:01
Speaker 3: shared her story with us.
50:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, so see your family code word delaying as much
50:06
Speaker 1: as you can talking about your experience as openly. There's
50:10
Speaker 1: also things like spam blocking that your phone provider offers,
50:14
Speaker 1: so you know, just something like making sure that's turned
50:17
Speaker 1: on so that you're not getting as many spam calls.
50:19
Speaker 1: I mean I have that turned on, and I feel
50:21
Speaker 1: like I get five spam calls a day.
50:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have that actually off because I make so
50:27
Speaker 3: many just cold calls for the show. But I do
50:30
Speaker 3: have it turned on with my texts, Like my texts
50:34
Speaker 3: unless you're in my contact list get filtered to another inbox.
50:38
Speaker 3: Really I don't, because yeah, you should turn it on.
50:42
Speaker 4: It.
50:42
Speaker 3: It's made my life a lot better, especially because of
50:44
Speaker 3: just like if I signed up for ten percent off
50:46
Speaker 3: of something two years ago and I never like opted
50:50
Speaker 3: to stop because I have just like I don't know,
50:53
Speaker 3: incredible laziness in those moments, like I'm still getting those
50:58
Speaker 3: texts and I don't have to see them, but nice. Yeah,
51:00
Speaker 3: it's great because also there's so many texts now like
51:03
Speaker 3: hey see you at dinner tonight, right, and it's just it's,
51:06
Speaker 3: you know, someone trying to bait you, Like I don't
51:10
Speaker 3: make dinner plans. I'm going to bed.
51:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my gosh, see you at dinner tonight. There
51:15
Speaker 1: was some comedian who had a joke about like pranking
51:19
Speaker 1: their friends where they would just text them at random
51:22
Speaker 1: and be like.
51:23
Speaker 4: Hey, I'm here, where are you?
51:26
Speaker 3: The nightmare just like wait, what nightmare?
51:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, but those are the fun kind of texts, not
51:34
Speaker 1: the spammy ones. Okay, well that's a great tip as well.
51:37
Speaker 1: If you have any other tips that you've run into
51:39
Speaker 1: about how to protect yourself from this kind of spam
51:43
Speaker 1: call or strategies to deal with it in the moment.
51:46
Speaker 1: We would love to hear it and talk about it
51:48
Speaker 1: because this is something we feel passionate about and are
51:50
Speaker 1: always trying to spread the word about. So you can
51:52
Speaker 1: email us at The Knife at exactly rightmedia dot com.
51:56
Speaker 3: We really do check it. We've got which email this week.
52:00
Speaker 3: It was great.
52:01
Speaker 1: Thank you emailer.
52:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. All right, we'll see you next week.
52:05
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. If you have a story for us,
52:09
Speaker 3: we would love to hear it. Our email is The
52:11
Speaker 3: Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com or you can follow us
52:14
Speaker 3: on Instagram at the Knife podcast or a Blue Sky
52:17
Speaker 3: at the Knife Podcast.
52:18
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly Right production hosted and produced
52:22
Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith.
52:23
Speaker 3: And me Pasha Eeny. Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and
52:26
Speaker 3: Alexis Samarosi. This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our
52:30
Speaker 3: associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
52:32
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport artwork.
52:35
Speaker 3: Fi Vanessa Lilac.
52:36
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.