Latest / Archons Corner / Can We Fix the Double Elimination Format?

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Can We Fix the Double Elimination Format? · Archons Corner

• 0:02
  Yes, Scoop looking dizzy, Unmoldy too loved, and Wendy joined the room
• 0:15
  the gang. Hi, this is Michael Hurley from Ghost Galaxy and you're listening
• 0:19
  to our const all right, what's going on? Everybody? I am the
• 0:22
  one, the only, the w O. Okay, I joined by the
• 0:26
  ever growing band of misfits. We have big z Hey, Hey, we
• 0:30
  have Southerly. Oh, we have Cash Drazz himself, draft Car. It's
• 0:36
  going as the choke Show, doctor Sheep, Yep, the el. Why
• 0:42
  did their names change? Well because she choked? I did not. I
• 0:48
  got high Rold. I'm not the guy who lost a DT and a O.
• 0:51
  A choke show is choke show? Okay, we got nine year old
• 0:56
  dty, we got the eyes of awesome. Do you want key forage community?
• 1:03
  Wow? Great to be here tonight with all this excitement, a little
• 1:07
  bit of animosity over choke show? Who's gonna choke? More like it's time
• 1:12
  in a family. I feel like it should be a floating trophy like no,
• 1:18
  just me all right? Who doesn't want to earn this? And and
• 1:21
  welcome our heart of the forest fan, your meme forest like you've been all
• 1:29
  about this, Wookie ill about the hearts, so cologize for all of our
• 1:34
  listeners, all of the people following us anywhere. But that is all Wookie
• 1:38
  who absolutely loves Heart of the Forest. So they're they're loving and on the
• 1:42
  on the talks just saying loving it degenerates, man degenerates. We got we
• 1:49
  got tons to go over today, I think the best thing to do.
• 1:53
  Um, we didn't get this out right away, but obviously there was more
• 1:56
  vaults added to the tour of Ault. We now have Seattle August twenty fifth
• 2:06
  through the twenty seventh, and Vegas September twenty ninth throughout September fifteenth to the
• 2:15
  seventeenth. No, no, that's Dallas. That's Dallas. That's where you
• 2:19
  live. Oh yeah, if you want to go to Vegas, you're gonna
• 2:23
  want to go September twenty ninth through October first, Vegas and Dallas. And
• 2:30
  there are some international Vault tours that were also announced, so not as many
• 2:35
  as we'd like, but there is some love for the rest of the world.
• 2:38
  Italy is central everyone. That's gonna be October sixth or eighth in Florence,
• 2:43
  Italy. That's like central to all of Europe. So they can all
• 2:49
  make it, and then you're gonna have one in Shanghai, China. Fifteen
• 2:53
  they can all make it. Fifteenth through the seventeenth will be in Shanghai,
• 2:57
  China. Smail too, Wookie, Wookie at our God's corner? Goodness?
• 3:04
  Does anyone else think that like by default Shanghai is going to be the least
• 3:07
  attended vault like in history A number one it might be. I don't know.
• 3:15
  I don't Like they had didn't they have that like Chinese events that Hong
• 3:21
  Kong. Yeah, like they had a bunch of like press for it.
• 3:24
  They were giving away the special thing and they had like thirty people, wasn't
• 3:31
  it was like just the time too though, but like we had live around
• 3:38
  that time and we had a hundred. I don't know. So like I
• 3:43
  think you're MAXI now at around sixty. I think if you hit sixty that
• 3:46
  that's a good day. Oh what you're saying is it might be worth going.
• 3:52
  Yeah, Like what kind of d bag would fly all the way over
• 3:58
  there and when they like one event crush up like that would be the worst
• 4:04
  I change, I go over there, alliance, you might win by default?
• 4:10
  Right just with me? Like he's thinking sixty for Shinghai. I think
• 4:15
  that's my my early on prediction. And I know this is really far away
• 4:18
  because we're talking about in September fifteenth, but like like not only is it,
• 4:24
  because like it's also at the same weekend that there's a US fault,
• 4:28
  So like, oh, I think for that, I think there will be
• 4:30
  people in the US that travel to florent to thely on October sixty eighth.
• 4:35
  Already it's fifteen hundred bucks round trip and it's one day in the air.
• 4:45
  Yeah, I think the whole Like that's that's two of its still, so
• 4:48
  like you're gonna have like a forty percent ARCN event in Shanghai. Most you
• 4:54
  might be the only Alliance player you register for immediately cleared world champion, second,
• 5:02
  third, and fourth as well. It's all five grand mind. Yeah,
• 5:08
  Like you're you're asking what d bag is going to China. I believe
• 5:13
  his name is doctor Sheep. He is canceling his Dallas ticket, putting it
• 5:18
  there's a voucher to shag in a way he gets and he's going to declare
• 5:23
  it as a business expense. I mean, I very seriously would cancel my
• 5:27
  gen Con expenses if I could get my money back. Yeah, yeah,
• 5:31
  that's another we can talk about that right now. Like like I'm looking at
• 5:34
  all these vaults that I am very excited to go to ya and then like
• 5:40
  I'm looking at gen Con, who I paid easily double all the vaults up
• 5:45
  going to attend, and I'm like, huh, well that sucks. There's
• 5:48
  way less to get. You can't even get a vault Master's deck at gen
• 5:53
  Con. Why not? I don't know'sider a vault Master's deck. So is
• 6:00
  there going to be a Nationals Masters deck? No. Nationals are supposed to
• 6:06
  be a tier under Vault Tour, so it should not have the same level
• 6:11
  of prizes. But now it's it was kind of off to the side,
• 6:17
  Like when you looked at the second that showed us there was stores, Regionals,
• 6:24
  Nationals, Worlds was like and off to the side was and then there's
• 6:30
  the cash tours in the vault that also can bring you to world Like the
• 6:34
  mainline track to get too Worlds in theory was stores, Regionals, Nationals,
• 6:42
  uh huh, which we had none of. So now it's just just the
• 6:46
  one national. Um, I'm still awaiting the Italian Nationals and the Canadian nationals,
• 6:54
  Yeah, the German Nationals and the Swedish nationals. The FFG at least
• 7:00
  cool national prizes, yeah, the Grand Championship play. You still love those
• 7:03
  small keys? Those small keys are are awesome. I love those And now,
• 7:10
  well, didn't those come from primes? Those from prisms, which would
• 7:14
  be the equivalent of what was a regional or what would have been a regional
• 7:18
  under their thing. But I don't know, Like, I really hope they
• 7:21
  have something to hand out besides a trip to Worlds. Well, correct,
• 7:29
  because there should be more people and there's no money that said state you're you
• 7:35
  are? You are correct? Yeah, because they capped it based on the
• 7:39
  space yea. But there's you have the access to worlds, which probably means
• 7:46
  we're going to be very friendly at those tables because I bet you there are
• 7:48
  eight people to a table kind of set up because this is gen Con.
• 7:53
  Oh yeah, seventy people playing in a ten round day one event. That's
• 7:57
  going to be fantastic. Please please let me win round one so I don't
• 8:01
  have to do that battle again. We definitely key for it if it helps
• 8:09
  your state of mind, your like like this, it's just a math thing
• 8:11
  at this point. There are seventy two people registered for our con. To
• 8:16
  get to sixty four, you take the difference, which seventy two eight,
• 8:20
  then you have to double that for them to pair. So there will only
• 8:24
  be sixteen players playing in round one, eight of which are just ft.
• 8:31
  They can just leave, I mean. So the thing I will say about
• 8:37
  that is if you if you lose that gen Con, there's other things I
• 8:41
  can do. So I can go in the exhibit hall. Frankly, I
• 8:46
  can go look at other games from Star Wars miniatures to Lakona to other board
• 8:50
  games. I can cheer on people. But I am not just stuck there,
• 8:54
  so I at least appreciate that aspect of gen Con. There's a lot
• 8:58
  to do there until you win three or four in a row and then get
• 9:01
  a bye and the hall's closed. Well that is what it is. But
• 9:05
  to those eight people that are gonna lose round one either day, I do
• 9:11
  recommend you just withdrawal and go do something fun. At gin Con, we
• 9:16
  support quitting, Like I used to be a hardcore against it because we had
• 9:22
  a teammate that would go to Drop every time, and I'll give them shit
• 9:24
  about it every time. But that's like there you get nothing for winning six
• 9:30
  games in a row and then losing your playing match, right Jr? That
• 9:33
  is correct from your teammates. No, no, no, I didn't get
• 9:39
  dirty looks. I got hey and my eyes closed. He couldn't see my
• 9:43
  dirty look. You didn't get to give a dirty look dresscar Well, I
• 9:48
  mean, Sheep, what did you get for going ahead and being five and
• 9:52
  oh on day one and going into day two? What'd you get for top
• 9:54
  eight? The same nothing you have? Okay, so dirty lucks got it?
• 10:00
  We're good then, all right, but let's get in to our predictions
• 10:05
  here, shall we. We did buckets of predictions before the Vault Tour,
• 10:09
  and uh, let's see who who won and who lost? So some we
• 10:15
  did go over last week total Opia participants. I did win that one,
• 10:20
  um, and I believed great Sheep, Yeah, technically Sheep won the percentage
• 10:28
  lost that one. Yeah, none of us were closed on the percentage.
• 10:31
  We're gonna go with that. I won all of this because I didn't get
• 10:35
  a chance to vote, so my my my votes were one hundred percent spot
• 10:37
  on, and I'm sticking to that. According to what I've been told,
• 10:41
  that's not how this works, So I'll have to double check with H with
• 10:46
  the tribunal, but I'm pretty sure it's not. So we'd also did woe
• 10:50
  dex Me and Z both said there would be one that made it to tap
• 10:58
  your come and we like, thanks Jared, um all right, So that
• 11:03
  we did predictions for what we thought the rest of the field would be.
• 11:09
  So we thought, um, most people thought it was gonna be between forty
• 11:13
  and fifty five percent m M and five percent. Well where were we?
• 11:20
  So we don't have these numbers yet, but you know, yes for the
• 11:24
  top eight, No, this no field. Where do we have that in
• 11:31
  that article? So mass mutation may this is hold on. This is on
• 11:37
  the secrets of the first vibe there now yeah, but I mean we do
• 11:41
  have radio listeners, podcast people listen. Can I'll go to keyforging dot com
• 11:46
  and read the article themselves. We do the secrets of the first of all
• 11:54
  found. All right, So good job, I'm leaving, goodbye, thank
• 12:01
  you. Twenty nine point six percent of the field was mass mutation, which
• 12:09
  is crazy, that's crazy. Low. I was the closest at forty and
• 12:15
  wins of Exchange accounted for twenty one point four percent. I win this one.
• 12:22
  I win this when you win MM and you win? Wow? No,
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  was this number of d tex DT decks? Yes, this was a
• 12:31
  number of DT decks total. Um DT accounted for three point one percent of
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  the Vault brutes. Yeah, of one hundred, that would be three.
• 12:46
  Okay, Drascore wins, no wins win. What are you talking about,
• 12:52
  dras Car wins. I was looking at the top. Yeah. So so
• 12:56
  if the other three of us said zero, yeah, everybody wins it too.
• 13:00
  There are apparently three. There's no way, I said, Zaro,
• 13:03
  did I really you said yah? Everyone else but me said zero. I
• 13:07
  feel like my answer was changed. It wasn't, I mean, unless you
• 13:11
  did. I feel one, one or two would be appropriate. So you
• 13:16
  geys were low there? Um all right, so Alliance winning? So I
• 13:20
  ask if you could say negative one sheep? Yeah that is now that now
• 13:26
  that you say that, I remember him say there would be a negative number
• 13:28
  of DT decks at the Vault Tour. But all right, so Alliance winning
• 13:33
  set Alliance was one by MM, I believe if I'm not mistaken and I
• 13:39
  remember correctly by Jason, Yeah correct, MM. So who chose MM here
• 13:46
  not you drazz sheep? Everyone shows MM. But because it was AOA.
• 13:52
  I don't even know if ao had made top whatever one's alliance dislogos, I
• 14:01
  don't know what said it's from Nope, definitely not. It's got Star Alliance
• 14:05
  in it. So it wasn't second well, Top four. Top four was
• 14:11
  woe because that was the unfathomable Sanctum equedon and that should have been with the
• 14:18
  Antiquities Dealer and the Whirlpool. So that was a whirlpoolse pencrator because that was
• 14:24
  moose if I am correct, yep, Moose men dude um made top four
• 14:30
  and the other top four was away. Yep, so AOA did make one
• 14:37
  out of the top eight. That's a huge downtick double martian general. If
• 14:43
  it's more than they've made an abduction well whatever, sad thing, all right,
• 14:50
  So we went for winners for ar Con. We were all wrong,
• 14:54
  every single one of us. Sheep Ze Sheep draft court Z. Everybody was
• 15:01
  wrong. However, Sheep, how did you get two choices? Sheep in
• 15:05
  dress corps both picked Jason for alliance Yeah rats yeah yeah, chat chose z.
• 15:13
  Oh no, that was they thought it was gonna be the versus sheep
• 15:16
  in the finals. Yep, So and that didn't happen. We were in
• 15:20
  office side of the brackets, so there was like going into the top eight.
• 15:24
  There was a chance, but it didn't happen. So that being said,
• 15:33
  check out the article. It's actually quite interesting. Uh, vault Masters
• 15:37
  decks everybody's favorite topic, right recently accounted for two percent. So is that
• 15:43
  like a deck well too, no, of a out of one hundred,
• 15:46
  yeah, two decks. Well it wasn't quite a hundred, was it.
• 15:48
  It was ninety eight, so basically so so two decks three, Dark Tidings
• 15:56
  Decks twelve, AOA Decks fourteen in World Clydes deck seventeen. You can do
• 16:02
  if you can, but picture that there were two people who literally want to
• 16:07
  hide and made a choice of, hey, we got vault Masters on Friday,
• 16:11
  the day before, I'm going to turn around and use this deck the
• 16:15
  next day because they announced that it would be viable, and that almost went
• 16:19
  ahead and had the same amount as Dark Tidings with three, which has been
• 16:23
  out for I don't know a little bit longer. I mean people also did
• 16:27
  that with WOA. Right, they just opened stuff up on Friday, turned
• 16:30
  around correct top eight. But when you're looking when that is not the norm.
• 16:37
  I hate to tell you that Zee, it is not the norm one
• 16:40
  person, but it didn't happen. But it did happen. And one event
• 16:45
  is he's acting like every time everybody goes to a Vault tour, just crack
• 16:49
  some woe and you'll find that a top eight acts not maybe no, but
• 16:55
  I think realistic. I think if you look at it, people felt more
• 16:57
  comfortable with I mean wins of exchange. Some people have had their wins of
• 17:03
  exchange that they had from their Game Found campaign. I'd be curious to see
• 17:07
  how many people took Friday's opening decks and played it. I know of at
• 17:11
  least two that I ran into and no, no, all wins of Exchange,
• 17:17
  but that match is the same amount of people who took their Vault Master
• 17:19
  deck and both of them, like one made Top eight and the other one
• 17:25
  considerably far um and I took out on screen. So I don't know,
• 17:32
  but I didn't see any of them. I didn't see anything. I don't
• 17:37
  think they made it very far because like, had they got any wins,
• 17:41
  I think people would have been talking about it. But that's what I'm saying.
• 17:44
  People are losing their minds over these vault Master decks, and yes,
• 17:47
  there are some nice houses and the decks look great, but we have to
• 17:52
  keep this in perspective that people actually did the same thing with Wins of Exchange
• 17:56
  and yet they were successful with it. Well, I think the perspective is
• 17:59
  this, you have a better chance of opening a more competitive deck just by
• 18:03
  buying Whoa than any of these vault Master decks, in my opinion, because
• 18:08
  those vult Master decks have tokens, and tokens are better. So maybe go
• 18:14
  buy Whoa. Maybe it's not. Maybe I've been playing the games, been
• 18:18
  testing the stuff. Whoa is better. Maybe I'll give you a solid maybe
• 18:26
  all right, We're well. That would actually feed into the second article that
• 18:33
  popped up the Winds of Exchange Years, which actually conveniently went released today.
• 18:38
  Who all right, So in the winds of Exchange Years, obviously we got
• 18:45
  some release states. For the US, it will be well well in North
• 18:48
  America. Pre release we'll be going Friday July twenty eight through August third of
• 18:56
  twenty twenty three, So I guess talk to your local game store on that
• 19:03
  one about the pre release stuff. Um, but official Wins of Exchange release
• 19:07
  will be Friday, August fourth, so literally the day after the pre releases
• 19:12
  are done. If you are international, you're getting boned again. Your pre
• 19:18
  release packs will be in September eight. And that our discord is like the
• 19:26
  only one that's not like a flame war about all this, like which one
• 19:32
  you're international release for wins of exchange? Um, I think a good majority.
• 19:37
  Now I'd have to go. Look. I don't know if they actually
• 19:41
  pull stats, but most of our most of our discord is US based,
• 19:48
  as opposed to more abroad. Well, and help from Feature self is primarily
• 19:52
  Canada. That's their home base. You also have No Order Keyports League,
• 19:56
  which obviously is going to be over in Europe, so they have a different
• 20:00
  perspective. I do think that they have an honest greape here in that there
• 20:03
  could have been a better no no no stop, no stop stop. I
• 20:08
  will take that side. I will take Gig's side on this one one hundred
• 20:12
  and ten percent. Because they said day one, day one of releasing everything,
• 20:21
  they said their main focus would be a state side focus period, end
• 20:26
  of story. It's never like they hid this information from anyone. I do
• 20:30
  agree with that, but we're going to get stuff out YadA YadA, so
• 20:36
  on and so forth, and everybody is going to get um. Everybody's gonna
• 20:41
  get you know, everybody's gonna get it at the same time. And the
• 20:44
  answer is no, that's not what they said from day one. This is
• 20:47
  the one time, you know, I'm defending them because they fully said it
• 20:52
  will be like we're focusing on the US and North America. No schill guys
• 21:02
  here like Dark Sydney and Dark Blake. One was barely Mascara Warren which they
• 21:15
  could come. Did they go did they go negative? I didn't listen to
• 21:19
  really like an opinion. Yes, I mean only in contrast to their normal
• 21:26
  ridiculously over the top happy Yeah. Okay, but you confirmed they are not
• 21:32
  straight g shills. Yeah, they did not go full because there now there
• 21:38
  is an official G shill right, so so official it's right there in that
• 21:45
  article. Yes. Uh so. My My question comes though, Wookie,
• 21:49
  to come back to this. If you know that the release date for international
• 21:55
  is going to be September fifteenth, yes, your your opinion is they should
• 21:59
  delay you longer. I go, you know what, we don't made it
• 22:03
  income. We can just keep waiting. It's a month, it's six weeks.
• 22:10
  There no, No, I'm just I'm trying to be able to see
• 22:14
  like what is because there is a very large argument, and it does feel
• 22:18
  from the international community that they are literally getting turnover. We're gonna go ahead
• 22:23
  and you're taking it one more time they have and they're probably another couple sets
• 22:30
  this world that doesn't work that way. And I get that. I have
• 22:36
  to go to a Formula one race because we can't afford to go to theme
• 22:38
  in this country because we don't get any right or well, now we get
• 22:41
  a few, but they're still they're still damn ridiculously expensive here like it is
• 22:45
  how stuff works. Not everything is worldwide based. No, I get that,
• 22:51
  but the problem is is that you are now comparing they have a different
• 22:55
  understanding because FG had a much larger distribution base and what FG had this isn't
• 23:00
  FG anymore. But this is what I'm saying, is they have that past
• 23:04
  practice expectation, and so yes, GIG was very open about, hey,
• 23:08
  we're gonna go ahead and focus on the US first, but it does feel
• 23:12
  like you're getting kind of over, especially when woe is so good people are
• 23:17
  playing it. That's what We're going to go ahead and see more and more
• 23:21
  as we're going forward and for Worlds and so if you're looking September, you
• 23:26
  have October November. I mean you got two months from the international release.
• 23:32
  I do, I mean like I do get to like, but only four
• 23:37
  of them get to come over here from Worlds. Anyway, this is a
• 23:41
  whole, This is a whole, another piece. So the World Series of
• 23:48
  Baseball again, they have one of like all of Europe has one event.
• 23:52
  They will have the first and second from Alias. They will have the first
• 23:56
  and second from r Coon and those people will come over here. We're not
• 24:00
  like it's felt like a playing field thing. It doesn't. It's almost moot.
• 24:03
  They will have such a little like a ability to get the world like.
• 24:07
  It doesn't matter how long it is delayed. You could give them blow
• 24:11
  next year. Well that might, I think if we're trying to build our
• 24:18
  community. I think it is again another hits in those who are outside the
• 24:22
  US, And I get I understand why. I'm just saying, putting them
• 24:29
  even closer together so that they're like two weeks off. This is coming right
• 24:33
  after this is coming right at gen Con. I guess the part is more
• 24:36
  than I expected to see. Like when I initially, like scrolled down to
• 24:38
  see the dates. I saw that it was August of September. But I
• 24:42
  was expecting to be like, I don't know, September first or whatever,
• 24:47
  like the first possible date into September. Um the full month and a half
• 24:52
  differential is is a bit more than I expected to see. What I mean,
• 24:59
  will just ushion isn't as easy as just you know, say send it
• 25:02
  through the States. Yeah, I get a lot of moving parts, and
• 25:07
  they are trying to do like other basically right. It's it's so you're getting
• 25:12
  deck to Europe, you're getting DEXT China, you're getting deck to Asia,
• 25:17
  you're getting DEXT to Australia, sending people in Australia. But I will say
• 25:25
  that there are some really strong international bases. When we look at Taiwan,
• 25:29
  when we go ahead, Australia used to have a large group. You're looking
• 25:33
  at Germany has a good group, Um you have Italy has a good group.
• 25:37
  France is a good group. There. You can look at our standing
• 25:40
  eating countries. There are some really big player bases. You're you're saying good
• 25:45
  group and big player bases. How big are these player basis? I mean
• 25:48
  relative right, I mean key for just small like like look, I'm just
• 25:56
  saying like what's what's what's I mean, what's a big player or a base
• 26:00
  I mean these days eight what I will I will go ahead to end say
• 26:07
  that even looking at our German, our Italians, going ahead and looking at
• 26:14
  for the North KeyForge League there and you have a lot of US players that
• 26:18
  have come in, but there are plenty of players. There's a lot more
• 26:22
  than eight. So we have to give them credit for that, and I
• 26:23
  will stand behind that. I do expect the Italian Vaultur to be the largest
• 26:27
  attended vaultur, Like that's by prediction. I think they're gonna get well over
• 26:33
  two hundred people just gonna cap it. I wonder, I mean, I
• 26:38
  mean, whoever, it's not gonna be gg running that thing. So that's
• 26:42
  true. So maybe it's not, well, I don't know where they're going
• 26:47
  to force them to use their self. They are forced to use double elimination
• 26:49
  as far as that we know, Yeah, like so you have we would
• 26:52
  have to see a change in that document because like right now, just like
• 26:56
  under f FG, like well, the first thing the FG, at least
• 27:00
  before we had floor rules, was the actual tournament structure document and we have
• 27:03
  that from GG. And that's why I like started throwing a fit about this
• 27:07
  last October because in that document, which still has not changed, it says
• 27:12
  double elimination. And I was like, came on here and I explained to
• 27:15
  you all what that meant, and you're like, all of them, to
• 27:18
  one of you said, surely that's not what they mean. I was like,
• 27:22
  you want a bit. And then we had Can't Ski and it was
• 27:26
  horrible. Then we had Philly and it was horrible. Guess what's gonna be
• 27:30
  happening, gin Gun, It's still gonna be horrible. For the love of
• 27:33
  Pete, please please please get rid of double elimination. If I have one
• 27:40
  request this year, please get rid of it. Well, let's talk about
• 27:44
  that. That's the that's our main talking point for today, is the double
• 27:48
  elimination catastrophe. Boyas, how was double elimination was Horrible's not? It's not
• 28:00
  the format that I would prefer. I didn't really notice a problem outside of
• 28:07
  JR. Played for a long time, well, because you won all your
• 28:10
  games. But I don't know, like exactly what to highlight how horrible it
• 28:17
  is for our game. So like we're small ish right now because we've gone
• 28:21
  through, however, many years of no growth because of so many reasons.
• 28:25
  Right, there is a scenario there where, like, you know, they
• 28:30
  finally get their marketing together, they understand how to push prelease stuff, and
• 28:33
  you know, like there are events going on and Thorners know this, and
• 28:37
  we get to back to the size we were, And as soon as a
• 28:41
  one hundred and twenty ninth person registers for either of the singular events, it
• 28:48
  is no longer a ten round losers bracket. It's a thirteen round losers bracket.
• 28:52
  And you can't even run that in a day. That's what will happen.
• 28:57
  Yeah, I don't understand. Damn, you just gotta start real early.
• 29:02
  It's but but think about what's being the ending in the am therefore not
• 29:07
  the same day. Think about what's happening to the judges, to the event's
• 29:11
  staff, and for the players. And again, we want more people coming
• 29:17
  out. So that's why this is a problem. They may actually cap events
• 29:22
  at one twenty eight, like it maybe oh sorry, you gotta go play
• 29:26
  alliance. That would be an option, But then then you're saying at that
• 29:30
  point, like you'll never have an event over two hundred fifty six, which
• 29:33
  means like we already had two events in our history that we're over that.
• 29:37
  Yeah, they're both of those were sealed though they're both in Europe. Like
• 29:41
  that's that's like they just hit that number. That's why we had a couple
• 29:45
  events that were I think those were the seven rounds to get the X one
• 29:48
  top Goode or whatever. Um. So, while we look at the impact
• 29:53
  on the players, while we look at the impact on the staff, it's
• 29:56
  not even the number of games that's truly the problem. It is the time
• 30:02
  usage throughout the day. Like if I show up at a vault, what
• 30:06
  do you guys want to do? Do you want to sit around? Or
• 30:07
  do you want to play games? A key Forge? Yeah for day two?
• 30:15
  If I make day two like that's like if you're talking about at a
• 30:18
  vault tour, like, I want to play the least amount of games I
• 30:21
  have to to get to the end that that is my goal. So what
• 30:29
  these are, what Sheep's saying here is win and you don't got to worry
• 30:32
  about it, right I don't. I I, for one, at that
• 30:34
  level of play, don't want to play more games than necessary, right,
• 30:40
  Like I understand he has I'm there to play key Forge and whatnot, but
• 30:44
  like when it comes to Vault Tour time, I want my Vault Tour time
• 30:47
  to be cleaning, concise, and then once that's done, I can go
• 30:53
  do something else. I definitely don't want drag it out. But when you're
• 30:59
  talking is you can go ahead and choose to play inside events, or you
• 31:03
  can choose to go ahead and walk away and do nothing else. And this
• 31:07
  case, there is no choice. If you lose because of a tough matchup.
• 31:11
  Again, we've talked about paper rock scissors for the decks, it just
• 31:15
  happens, bad matchup, bad choice, and play. You're then stuck for
• 31:21
  another nine rounds to be able to go ahead and finish the day. And
• 31:26
  by the way, you're going to take two buys, so you're sitting like
• 31:30
  it is not buys like that is the wrong terminology. But you do have
• 31:34
  two non playing rounds. That is the best way to say to our audience
• 31:38
  without going into a Yeah, without going into it. But you have people
• 31:41
  who are frustrated because you lose your momentum when you have to sit out for
• 31:48
  multiple rounds, and people who want a couple rounds are then waiting for the
• 31:55
  people who are trying to be able to work their way from losing the first
• 31:59
  round, and the people who lost in the first round have to go ahead
• 32:02
  and wait before they can get to come back and start their journey, which
• 32:07
  is a long gauntlet run. It's not good on either side. And when
• 32:12
  I see people so frustrated. Like again, I had no problem playing with
• 32:19
  many individuals who were never going to make day two when we go two or
• 32:22
  we lose, or you know, we're two and two. But here there
• 32:27
  was absolute depression and frustration because people are just waiting. I had people who
• 32:30
  had won a couple of games and we're frustrated because they're sitting around waiting.
• 32:35
  And it's not good when a player in your group, which again this is
• 32:38
  a community event, you come with the community for a lot of people were
• 32:45
  in group. I held up my group. Other people were waiting on their
• 32:51
  players. You guys couldn't go ahead and do anything else. Whereas our standard
• 32:55
  here's six rounds, you are six o or five and one, there's a
• 33:00
  cut point and we move on. It is a clear stopping point. People
• 33:05
  could get dinner. It really had a much larger impact on the actual event
• 33:09
  than people are aware of, especially if you lost early, you might not
• 33:13
  even have seen that. You just laughed. Yeah. Well, I think
• 33:16
  the best idea I heard was like rolled the second amber into the main events
• 33:22
  and just keep it double elimination Swiss, whereas like you can continue playing that
• 33:30
  is your second amber events and you get the same kind of prizes of awards
• 33:34
  for moving forward in the main event, or you drop into pods. I
• 33:38
  don't remember who came up with that. I might have been one of you.
• 33:42
  I just read it in the chat at some point. In that way,
• 33:45
  you have the six rounds or five or what am the being, But
• 33:49
  basically you have a number of rounds until you have a definitive sixteen or less
• 33:53
  people that have only one loss, and then you do a like you stop
• 34:00
  the Swiss like round right there, and then you use strength of schedule.
• 34:05
  You make a play in the top eight bracket that day in that to find
• 34:08
  your top eight before you leave. Some of them would have already made it.
• 34:13
  In that case, Dan, you would have won your six games,
• 34:15
  you would have been done. So I don't have any facts on this,
• 34:20
  but I do think from the way they've done it is like they don't want
• 34:22
  to use strength the schedule as a decider at all, Like that is one
• 34:28
  of the goals. Is strength of schedule is nothing? I mean because it
• 34:32
  doesn't exist in double elimination. I haven't heard any of them say one way
• 34:36
  or another about strength of schedules. So but I have the belief that it
• 34:42
  is a goal there that they don't want to use it for anything, because
• 34:45
  there is a bunch of field bads and garbage when strength of schedule starts to
• 34:49
  determine who has to playing who doesn't. There is nothing perfect though, but
• 34:52
  like when it comes down to it, you're either going to have like three
• 34:55
  feels bad per tournament or you're going to have seventy feels bad per tournament.
• 35:01
  Well, wow, when the whole tournament feels bad, then it doesn't really
• 35:07
  then you know it's it's fair. Yeah, but no, that's not good
• 35:09
  for a community when everyone feels bad. When you're taking a like Zee,
• 35:14
  you had a buy and a round number one, you automatically get to go
• 35:16
  ahead and go on. I ended up facing like fifty something. People are
• 35:22
  gonna have buy a round, yes, incon fifty something, but I faced
• 35:27
  Jupiter. It's a strong matchup, two good players, two good decks.
• 35:31
  You talk strength, the schedule has no impact. It did have a it
• 35:35
  didn't have an impact. No, no, not really. I mean your
• 35:39
  pairings mattered, but not it's not your strength of schedule. No, but
• 35:44
  I'm saying it's still good players. So one of us is going to go
• 35:46
  ahead and have to make that gauntlet run. And when you can see both
• 35:50
  of us playing in for that final spot and both of us lost and Jupiter
• 35:54
  made he won multiple games that made it further than I did. But that
• 35:59
  has an impact. I don't know. I just I want to see the
• 36:04
  best players, and maybe that's it from earlier. I want to see the
• 36:06
  best players around the world coming for worlds, and I want to see the
• 36:09
  best players going ahead, and not just because you have a bad matchup,
• 36:13
  but overall, what are the best players, the best decks. Let's get
• 36:16
  them out and let's play key for its. Let's see who really can go
• 36:20
  ahead and be consistent and perform. I mean, this double elimination shows you
• 36:23
  that. Just fine, I just want to perform. This isn't miserable like
• 36:27
  my wife and say quits already. Had they not quit and still be actively
• 36:34
  playing there is no way in hell I could convince either one of them to
• 36:37
  go to this format structure, Like I told her, like I walk through
• 36:42
  like with both of them, what happened to they are there is zero percent
• 36:45
  chance they are ever coming back to the op world if this doesn't change.
• 36:51
  Whereas like old days, like if they ever brought back Survival and it was
• 36:54
  still you know, the true Survival, you play your six games and then
• 36:58
  you can make them, they would have inally come back to play and something
• 37:00
  like that. They would have potentially come back to play in a sealed sixth
• 37:04
  game thing for fun that was in Dallas, like if that was a thing.
• 37:07
  There is no chance that I would commence either of them to come play
• 37:10
  in this format, even if it was freaking free and there was money online.
• 37:15
  It's just they wouldn't do it. But it's it's not even z for
• 37:20
  just myself, Zach also did the same thing. I can't see like this
• 37:24
  is gonna happen to basically someone every time, or they're gonna lose one and
• 37:29
  then they're gonna win a bunch of games and then they're gonna lose. But
• 37:30
  like we've still not seen any a single person that's lost that first round,
• 37:36
  make top eight, and the odds are pretty good you never will, like
• 37:40
  there's a chance, but like, if someone ever does that, they'll have
• 37:45
  technically done way, way better than anyone else, because like, you did
• 37:51
  better than me by far, you deserved a better prize than I did in
• 37:54
  that event. You won more games and they were all very hard to win,
• 38:00
  and I got a prize you didn't. Like, it's not good.
• 38:05
  The advantage of that first round bye or wait or whatever you want to call
• 38:10
  it, is by random luck is is like crazy, I said, like
• 38:15
  that's gonna happen to fifty something people in gen count because only sixteen people play.
• 38:22
  Those sixteen people got screwed and eight of them just lost. Like that's
• 38:27
  but again, we came to play key Forge, so why would we not
• 38:30
  have one person taking a bye? Why is it that you have so many
• 38:36
  people taking a bye? Why is it so many people are sitting there not
• 38:39
  playing the goal of no meaningless games is being met? Well that's kind of
• 38:45
  not true though, But I end up Yeah, I end up with I
• 38:51
  mean, like they're meaningful until they're not right, Like, uh, you
• 38:55
  have a chance, Like you're never playing a game that doesn't lead you closer
• 39:00
  to making day two. That's the same for any tournaments now and Swiss.
• 39:07
  Once you've got two losses, you're done, and they're same inwis U.
• 39:15
  Two lost elimination is what I'm voting for, not like what you're saying,
• 39:20
  but then you know, like you're you're just rolling the second amber in which
• 39:24
  find what I'm saying, likening the goals of no no pointless games and those
• 39:34
  and those games not impacting thing, which is them saying they don't want strength
• 39:37
  of schedule to be meaningful. Is what this I've never heard them say that.
• 39:43
  That's what he said in his original talk was like the goal the region
• 39:47
  they went to double elimination was because he wanted to eliminate the the pointless games,
• 39:53
  and that was not the term he used, but basically he wanted to
• 39:57
  eliminate the games that didn't impact the tournament but did impact it because of the
• 40:05
  way strike the schedule works. So this is the line that we're drawing.
• 40:07
  We said we'd have ten ten vaults and it would be five and five international,
• 40:14
  and they said that we would have op starting in January, and all
• 40:20
  of this isn't necessarily happening. It's modified and changed because that's what's had to
• 40:24
  happen. But we're gonna go ahead and keep the double elimination. When you
• 40:29
  see people, I mean I literally had to talk down one of the players
• 40:31
  because they are frustrated beyond belief because they've been sitting for multiple rounds. You
• 40:37
  talk about a non important round TBD, tvd TD, it's the time I'm
• 40:44
  telling you why it's not changing. I'm not with you like it needs to
• 40:47
  go, like what it can change. They have the power. There's been
• 40:52
  exactly one tournament that's done this real quick. I just want to say that
• 40:57
  JAM wants us to say right into GG or nothing will change. I hate
• 41:01
  I don't think this is changing. They built questions, they've built an entire
• 41:10
  response either you're you're not going to I hate to tell you guys, this
• 41:14
  format's not changing. They built an enter website designed from run this. This
• 41:21
  is play style from my understanding again from listening to people talk. Play Style
• 41:27
  is another one of their for profit things that's really meant to be like a
• 41:31
  challenge kind of platform, Like it's going to be run tournaments for whatever you
• 41:36
  want and whatever formats. That also ties into all their other online linking stuff
• 41:40
  that they're trying to develop and push to everybody else, like they are trying
• 41:45
  to develop a bigger picture thing. So it does the double elimination, but
• 41:51
  it's gonna have Swiss in it. It's gonna have other formats and like Nova
• 41:57
  build the one we use, which is what I'm talking about it, which
• 42:00
  can be done for this over a weekend. Like you had bugs initially,
• 42:06
  but then she fixed those the next weekend. Like it's not like a coding
• 42:10
  since they already have the bones of their platform. It is not. I
• 42:14
  mean, we'll bother birow you guys A Southerly he works for he works,
• 42:20
  he works for Sandwiches. We are not his fip. We can never mind,
• 42:24
  never mind. Oh he works for decks. Yeah, he worked for
• 42:30
  Away, very very high taste, like fresh off the press. All right,
• 42:39
  so it works for Vault Master deck. So what is like, So
• 42:46
  let's just imagine, let's dream for a moment that that they're not idiots.
• 42:52
  Well, let's that ctp's listening right now, OK, and he's listening to
• 42:58
  and I probable that's true, but who knows. He took my card like
• 43:02
  he waited till I turned around before he ripped it up, through it away
• 43:06
  with our with our tr code. But you know, um um, But
• 43:09
  let's just say he's listening. What is he thinking to himself where it's like
• 43:14
  yeah, but but these guys don't get it. Like here's why these guys
• 43:19
  don't understand, Like what is he saying? I have no They have feedback
• 43:25
  from previous Vault tours that there was a lot of pointless games and drops and
• 43:31
  then but I don't understand what games and drops. So he's thinking that he's
• 43:37
  just gonna get all they have negative feedback on the previous format, what about
• 43:42
  a podcast? It's as much negative feedback as we're currently giving down this format.
• 43:45
  But don't don't think that this other format was the bee's knees. Um.
• 43:52
  So it's sam if he does, damns if he don't. That's what
• 43:54
  he's thinking to himself. Well, yeah, I mean, you know,
• 43:58
  there's no perfect format. Like we complained a lot about fg IT stuff that
• 44:02
  they did, but I don't remember us ever complaining about the format of like,
• 44:07
  wis something I'm not talking for Somebody didn't complain about it, that's not
• 44:15
  Yeah, there was a lot of like how about the Swiss and it.
• 44:24
  The short answer is, you don't know how good you have it until something
• 44:29
  worse comes along. It shows how good you actually did have it. Is
• 44:34
  this is this the ex girlfriend syndrome? Like we didn't know how good we
• 44:37
  had it until we've got this l over here? Is that what it is?
• 44:44
  Oh my god, I mean I don't understand I'm talking about that.
• 44:46
  I'm talking about the format. Let's be very very clear. Not FG format
• 44:52
  like format maybe yet what are the problems? What are the problems was Zo's
• 45:00
  format when they had an ALEX You get paired, right, everybody gets paired.
• 45:06
  Winners get paired with winners and then and then basically, once you have
• 45:13
  two losses, you're off the second number. Okay, so what you're in
• 45:16
  the bracket, but you're in second. There is pair up and pair down,
• 45:22
  right, so somebody gets to play, you know, some some XO
• 45:27
  gets to play at an X one, which is technically a favor like favorable.
• 45:32
  And then, depending on the format, to get you to a clean
• 45:37
  cut strength of schedule, so some four ones or some X ones have to
• 45:44
  play an extra game because of strength of schedule and some don't. And depending
• 45:49
  on your numbers. You might even have random three twos or X twos that
• 45:52
  get to play, but it's all based off of some strength of schedule that
• 45:57
  you would not have an X two in that environment. Okay, I haven't
• 46:00
  looked at things, but there is a strength of schedule thing that they have
• 46:04
  to do to get the cut clean to a clean number of players, which
• 46:07
  is very common in this type of game. I'm not saying it's not common.
• 46:13
  I'm saying there's lots of negative feedback about that stuff too, right from
• 46:17
  the people who have to play an extra game. And the only reason they're
• 46:21
  doing it is because the people they played early drop where this person's person played
• 46:25
  out and went three three, and it matters, and that's what they're trying
• 46:30
  to eliminate. What this to do. Think one to two people per events
• 46:35
  are going to have like, oh I didn't make it on Breakers or whatever
• 46:38
  that happened to me, and the Grand Champions or whatever, because they did
• 46:42
  actually do for the first Grands were the only time they actually did a hard
• 46:45
  cut to sixteen, so they could actually have X twos in there. And
• 46:50
  there were some X twos in the US one I was one of them.
• 46:52
  I was like too off from being because I was like eighteen, so I
• 46:57
  didn't make it. My dex sucked so a lot I didn't. I was
• 47:00
  gonna get creamed anyway. But like that is a normal type of thing that
• 47:04
  happens in most games. But yes, there are going to be people that
• 47:08
  are just one off the breaker for having either in this scenario, it's not
• 47:14
  whether they made it or not, because they know they didn't make it,
• 47:15
  because if they had X two, it's whether they're not they will have to
• 47:20
  play in the top sixteen, play in round or not. So you basically
• 47:25
  anyone that is XO will never have to play that round unless well almost never
• 47:30
  have to play in that round, and then most of the X ones will
• 47:36
  be playing against each other, but some of the x ones won't because they
• 47:39
  have the best strength of schedule to depending on whether you have fifteen, thirteen,
• 47:44
  fourteen, twelve, whatever, all the way down to eight perfectly,
• 47:46
  so if you want to eliminate the useless games, and at the same time
• 47:51
  just like try and get people involved with in the same amount of you know,
• 47:55
  competitive games, sort of like Swiss. One idea that I heard was
• 48:01
  having a group stages. So depending on how many rounds they want. You
• 48:06
  can set the size of the groups and then you do a round robin within
• 48:09
  it, and then the top of each group then goes on to day two
• 48:13
  or whatever, where they'll have a elimination bracket. That has a serious problem
• 48:17
  of grouping grouping because like all of a team gets grouped together randomly, which
• 48:29
  is random, but that only one of them can move forward. I mean
• 48:31
  that that's the same as round one. Not not really, it is very
• 48:37
  because you are guaranteed in grouping that once original pairings are down, like you
• 48:42
  know the other one, multiple of them can get to the end. I
• 48:47
  mean, you stick me in a group with a bunch of nine year olds
• 48:50
  and I just ought to lose, so you know, all right? So
• 48:57
  I was I was looking on our connor uh and uh I was mentioned I
• 49:01
  yeh biggest vault was overseas. So the biggest vault was UK game xpell three
• 49:08
  hundred and eighty eight players. That was Z. If there's three hundred players
• 49:15
  in our commember, we do have to split the field. So I'm still
• 49:20
  thinking that's I don't think that's hitting above two fifty six for either event,
• 49:23
  A don't. But still as soon as you're in that one twenty nine to
• 49:28
  two fifty six range. That's a thirteen event that you cannot reasonably run in
• 49:35
  a day. I don't know twenty percent of three hundred and whatever's only like
• 49:39
  eighty, so that puts you over two fifty six and the other one if
• 49:43
  you go to two. I have not done the numbers for above two fifty
• 49:45
  six. Doesn't it just add two more rounds? It's more than sixteen rounds,
• 49:52
  so that's two that's just two days of play right there. And that
• 49:57
  that's without top cut. Like that's what I mean. Like this format is
• 49:59
  no designed for games like this, like it's made for chess. Were like
• 50:02
  the whole damn it's like ten minutes we go go go two fifty six right
• 50:08
  at two fifty six, isn't it? Like the the win and ends are
• 50:14
  what six or seven rounds? So the first person to lose then gets a
• 50:19
  few buys and then has to win like twelve games in a row. Yes.
• 50:25
  Again, and no matter how you cut this, if you are above
• 50:29
  sixty, if you lose your first game, go home, go do something
• 50:34
  else. Well, this is why when we are struggling with lunch, I
• 50:37
  simply said if my food's here, I'm gonna go ahead. I'll just sit
• 50:40
  out. It doesn't matter. It is such a low probability to make it.
• 50:45
  And that was the last time I ate food. You were about ready
• 50:49
  to I was, yeah, both Corey and I had lost, and so
• 50:53
  we sat there like, fine, well, well we'll just miss it.
• 50:57
  I'll ride back, we'll be It's it's statistically unlikely to make day two based
• 51:02
  on that first round loss, and that, in my opinion, still comes
• 51:07
  down to who you're going to go ahead and play and the DAK versus and
• 51:14
  over its best players. And then when you realize, like all these other
• 51:17
  people got buyes round one, it makes it that much more salting. But
• 51:23
  like you lost that game? Did Jupiter on it? Like? Who played
• 51:28
  amazing that day? Well? I was just chilling talking to my talking to
• 51:34
  some other buddies, a good byes. I uh. I shuffled on my
• 51:37
  deck. I did some gold fishing just just to like, you know,
• 51:40
  get in the zone near the end, and I went to to play my
• 51:45
  first game. I think the piece that I still want to hit it is
• 51:49
  our community is amazing. I enjoy previous gen cons and other Vault tours where
• 51:54
  we finished up at seven o'clock. The events staff couldn't got to go out
• 51:58
  to eat and then we could have fact is correct, Well, we could
• 52:00
  have dinner and we could just talk shop and you could get a good night's
• 52:05
  rest. You're it's just correct. I want all of that. I definitely
• 52:10
  got cheated at my draft car experience, and I feel, honestly that that's
• 52:15
  on me. Sheep. I do. I feel that we paid a lot
• 52:16
  of money, but I would explain, yes, I'm willing to let you
• 52:22
  have it, but I was the one who is still playing, and you
• 52:24
  guys are in this spot. You even said it like, ah, do
• 52:28
  we leave? Do we go because we don't know if you're gonna lose this
• 52:30
  round or two rounds or three or four rounds from now, or because we
• 52:36
  don't know, we're going to stay there? And it puts you in an
• 52:37
  awkward spot. And that's the social group that you're with. Are you there
• 52:44
  to play key Forge or either to socialize? Oh yes, I am there.
• 52:50
  I am there to play key Forge and to socialize, and it is
• 52:53
  a combination. I enjoy our community, and honestly, there's a lot of
• 52:57
  joy that comes from being with our fellow players when we go to a random
• 53:01
  subshop, or when we go ahead and have Philly Chi steaks afterwards. There's
• 53:06
  a lot of jobs, correct, I mean again, the reason we should
• 53:15
  be having to choose here, Like no, no, I'm I'm completely just
• 53:21
  being a thorn in the side. I don't understand why you can literally have
• 53:28
  the two best decks face round one and one of those people then has to
• 53:31
  fight all the way back through in order to just make take and it's and
• 53:36
  it's a struggle, right and again Lezi said, this is a format that's
• 53:39
  derived for chess, not not not for games that last forty five are capped
• 53:45
  out at forty five minutes. So I don't know the good solution. I
• 53:52
  don't see what was wrong with what we had before. I know it's like,
• 53:55
  oh, it creates feels bad. But it's like, man, there's
• 53:58
  few like every I'm gonna lean on Sheep saying every game has feels bads.
• 54:04
  This is guaranteed to create. However, many people lose Round one feels bad
• 54:08
  open time. But I don't even think it's on the people who lose round
• 54:13
  one. I think it's also the people who win in round three or four,
• 54:15
  and then have to wait multiple hours for them to play their next game.
• 54:21
  I would much rather hear lose in round three or four, just to
• 54:23
  be clear to the audio. Correct, Yes, if you lose in round
• 54:27
  three or four, you're also then waiting a long time, a long time
• 54:30
  to be able. And they were better about that. Gig's staff was better
• 54:35
  about saying, Hey, guys, you're gonna have a four hour wait before
• 54:37
  you're gonna play again. I guess that's one thing we have four hours clear.
• 54:42
  As far as the format goes, it does not matter what's round you
• 54:45
  lose in from the winner's bracket, the loser's bracket will not finish until round
• 54:51
  ten. Whether you lost in round one, round three, round five,
• 54:54
  you're going to be there until round ten. If you end up making day
• 55:00
  two like it's it's just how it ends up. The final play in round
• 55:05
  of round ten will be eight people in the four winners of those eight people
• 55:09
  will make day two in round ten. That will not happen until the tenth
• 55:14
  round up play. So if you lose a single game, you're there game.
• 55:20
  What is the I guess? What is the I guess It depends on
• 55:22
  the number of players. I wasn't gonna say, what is how many uh
• 55:29
  xos did you have? You and Dan four of them, so basically half
• 55:36
  of them. Yeah, that's exactly how it works. Yeah, that's how
• 55:40
  doublem half of your top cut will be. I mean in the sixty five
• 55:46
  twenty eight there will be four five. I'm still under the assumption impression.
• 55:53
  I would much rather have a feel bad of here's three to five people who
• 55:59
  are right on that cust who didn't make it in, then that have to
• 56:04
  do a play around. They can still make it in, but they have
• 56:06
  a playing around versus everybody at some point waiting. Yeah, that's what we
• 56:15
  want to happen. Please listen to us, gg am. I you mentioned
• 56:21
  you'd met some people jar I got at the At the event, I talked
• 56:24
  to three people that were one had just come out um after going through this
• 56:30
  experience, said that there wasn't planning on doing it, mainly because like because
• 56:36
  of many things and combined with experience. Two of them were on the fence.
• 56:40
  They're not planning on coming to do this because of this structure. One
• 56:45
  of them was definitely because of the structure. The other one was on the
• 56:50
  financial fence. But this kind of solidified. There's no reason for him to
• 56:53
  spend the money to come down to this um. So that's three people out
• 56:58
  of the hundred, and those are three people who hadn't have a bot for
• 57:04
  a future event, right. One of them definitely was going to but I
• 57:08
  don't, I mean outside of the feedback, like how do they how do
• 57:15
  they know like it would be I mean, like you really want to put
• 57:20
  the pain on them. Is everybody says I would like to refund my ticket
• 57:23
  because I don't want to play in this format. That don't make it really
• 57:27
  clear. But the truth is is all of us who were going to the
• 57:31
  next Vault, even though we know it's going to be double elimination, are
• 57:36
  still going to the next Vault. I hear you. But at the same
• 57:39
  time as you're saying this, there's an opportunity for some other individuals to go
• 57:45
  to Seattle and to go to Vegas and frankly afraid to express clearly to Gig
• 57:52
  that we are choosing not to do that for those reasons unless you actually write
• 57:55
  them be like I was looking at this, but I'm not going to because
• 58:00
  of these reasons. Like just making the decisions is not a usable data point.
• 58:06
  Well, I can tell you right now that that was an opportunity and
• 58:09
  I have a financial means to be able to do this. I actually have
• 58:14
  to really think about that with the double I mean, the reason like you
• 58:21
  need to write, yeah, be like the reason I'm choosing not to go
• 58:24
  to this next ball is because I don't want to play it, and I
• 58:29
  want to play key Forge. But this, yeah, we're I mean,
• 58:31
  it's it's not fun. We're gonna I mean, we'll still have fun,
• 58:36
  but it could be better, right, So I mean I still have a
• 58:40
  ton of fun. Yeah. Yeah. I think the thing that's going to
• 58:45
  speak biggest to Gig honestly is that exactly what she said is if they see
• 58:52
  a drop in number one, they I think they have to see a drop
• 58:57
  in revenue, right, derived from from these sources, Um, that'd be
• 59:05
  number one, number two you drop negative? Well, yeah, topic from
• 59:09
  a topic from a different day. But like if if we're in this scenario
• 59:14
  and you're like, I don't enjoy the format, but I'm still gonna come
• 59:17
  like meaning to mean, it's it's meaningless, Like if if if again we
• 59:22
  go into what's the very next one that's coming up? The next one is
• 59:28
  Minnesota. It is meaningless like there's okay, So it's like I don't support
• 59:31
  this typical thing. It's like saying like I don't support um x's you know
• 59:37
  thing, but then I still support them with dollars. It's not meaningless,
• 59:40
  right and the product so like I continue to go to all of the stuff
• 59:46
  because I love the I p Yeah. Do I think it is was mismanaged
• 59:52
  in FG times? Yes, we talked about that every dam week. Do
• 59:59
  I think what is what is the better right now? Yes? And it's
• 1:00:02
  the beginning so they can make the change. Now they can make the change,
• 1:00:07
  but why because it's a better player experience for the product that they want.
• 1:00:13
  But that's more dollars I have to sink into it. It's more things
• 1:00:15
  I have to cost nothing to change anything here. But they're designing their own
• 1:00:22
  stuff, so it is going to have a back end cost. Software is
• 1:00:23
  going to have that anyway. You say that now, but now we have
• 1:00:29
  to get it done. We got to put a time crunshot at like draft
• 1:00:31
  corset. It's possible, but it's going to cost dollars. Whether it's going
• 1:00:36
  to happen anyway is menial, Like it does not have a capacity already right
• 1:00:42
  now, and that's something we don't know, right, That's something we don't
• 1:00:45
  know. But you say it's not complicated, and that's fine, but it's
• 1:00:49
  still going to cost somebody some money, not much, it's not a significant
• 1:00:54
  amount. For this conversation, we want to go ahead and bring in new
• 1:00:59
  players. This experience is not the way to do it. Even here,
• 1:01:04
  even hearing this podcast or others, if I come to a Vault tour,
• 1:01:07
  I want to talk about being able to socialize, go out with the group.
• 1:01:09
  Hey, we did this, Hey, I had fun in the side
• 1:01:12
  events. I really enjoyed the individuals that I played with for Sealed, I
• 1:01:15
  enjoyed when we was playing our counter alliance. Here. I've heard more complaints
• 1:01:21
  in regards to the VT decks being exclusive and v V Vault Master, Yes,
• 1:01:28
  Vault Master, and the format. The format has been buying far the
• 1:01:34
  number one complaint that I have heard, and that is from every single person
• 1:01:38
  except for one. One individual has had a positive response so far that I've
• 1:01:45
  heard, and I've had people who were reaching out to the gig staff saying
• 1:01:49
  that. But again, we just need to continue to send messages to Gig
• 1:01:52
  through the forum and let them know. Yeah, if you're listening to this
• 1:01:57
  and you feel the same, send a message. But to what you're saying
• 1:02:01
  earlier, right, like voting with your money is valid, But when it's
• 1:02:07
  such a small company and they're really trying to revive this game, you know,
• 1:02:09
  as you're talking about catching a falling knife, if you wanted to keep
• 1:02:14
  going, I mean, we're gonna have to support the game. Yeah,
• 1:02:19
  and I will continue to go to them even if the format sucks, so
• 1:02:22
  like they will still have my money because I'm stupid. But like what I'm
• 1:02:29
  going to continue to tell people, Like I I want people to go to
• 1:02:32
  these things, so like I don't tell people not to go. But like
• 1:02:36
  I did have a conversation about like with a friend of mine, and I'm
• 1:02:40
  like, yeah, just just buy the ticket, don't register, Like,
• 1:02:44
  just don't play in the events, go play in the side things, because
• 1:02:45
  you're probably gonna hate the event. Like it's that's the conversation, and they're
• 1:02:52
  gonna go. They're gonna have a great time, I'm sure, but no,
• 1:02:57
  they're not going to like go through the trouble of doing certain things.
• 1:03:02
  All right, second, Amber, I'm assuming that's what you wanted to just
• 1:03:07
  talk about transferring it in or do we want to talk about how second Ever
• 1:03:10
  kind of sucks. Well, before we went, one of my predictions and
• 1:03:15
  hopes like well I got talked about hopes and dreams for Philly, Like that
• 1:03:19
  was one of the last things we said before we left. And my hope
• 1:03:22
  was like whatever they were comprising Friday and combined with whatever Second Amber is,
• 1:03:27
  be like really engaging, entertaining and meaningful for us, because, like like
• 1:03:32
  I said back then, like there are going to be people that lose two
• 1:03:37
  games and they're done, Like there needed to be something to engage them.
• 1:03:40
  And I think like in spite of all of us complaining about double elimination and
• 1:03:45
  as bad as vote Master like went over with some of the internationals, which
• 1:03:49
  again I'm fine with, Like, I think the biggest actual failure was these
• 1:03:55
  two things, like I which is it's hard to say what was the plan
• 1:04:00
  there because like I know that there was the crate or whatever. They didnt
• 1:04:04
  show up. The palette didn't get like to the train station on time or
• 1:04:09
  whatever, whatever the hell actually happened with that palette. They didn't get it,
• 1:04:13
  So we don't know what the prizing was gonna be for the sealed event.
• 1:04:16
  But from my best guests, we were supposed to play four rounds of
• 1:04:21
  Swiss and then who was ever four? Oh would have got to pick from
• 1:04:25
  a prize wall. Oh, there was a prize wall, but like I
• 1:04:30
  pick a prize that was supposed to be from the palette. They shifted by
• 1:04:33
  ponies, right, Like that's what I gathered was supposed to be there.
• 1:04:39
  And then what I gathered from the second amber is that you were gonna get
• 1:04:44
  raffle tickets for wins, and then they would pull the tickets and then you
• 1:04:46
  would get prizes from whatever was on the palette. And that was really all
• 1:04:51
  that that was, Like I think that specific, like those two things have
• 1:04:58
  to be way way better. When we ran Key Forward Live, we went
• 1:05:02
  way out of our way and into our pocketbooks to make sure that all people
• 1:05:08
  had stuff to do that we're eliminated from our main events at all times.
• 1:05:14
  We created our own little ticket system, We had our own prize while we
• 1:05:16
  had pods fired, we had alternate major events firing. Like. We did
• 1:05:21
  a lot of investment to make sure that we could constantly engage. I think
• 1:05:28
  our max number was one twenty five we could constantly engage one hundred and twenty
• 1:05:31
  five people actively and have fun and key forwards at all times after they had
• 1:05:35
  been eliminated. That is what I think they actually need to get much much
• 1:05:41
  much better at between now and Minnesota. Yeah, you know, I have
• 1:05:48
  some little amount of hope, you know, maybe hard to know that maybe
• 1:05:54
  there was a different, more interesting and exciting plan for second member and or
• 1:06:00
  for the pods, but they just weren't able to execute that because they didn't
• 1:06:06
  have their stuff. Um who knows, but again because of live like all,
• 1:06:15
  Like, I don't even think they had the personnel there to do more
• 1:06:17
  than what we saw, right, Like yeah maybe not like to do some
• 1:06:24
  of the stuff that I'm saying, like you would need more people there.
• 1:06:27
  Yeah, they didn't physically have that many people there. Um, so like
• 1:06:32
  that needs to be better. Like your people are spending lots and lots of
• 1:06:35
  money to go to these things after they go to in whatever the main event,
• 1:06:41
  and it's just math pete, Like whether you go to Swiss double elimination
• 1:06:44
  or you stay in the turningspile or it's the original style. After two rounds
• 1:06:47
  of play, there are people that are eliminated and they still spent just as
• 1:06:54
  much money as everyone else to be there. They need to be still engaged
• 1:06:59
  in a tangible way that is fun in meeting. Now, I did have
• 1:07:03
  fun in the pods, right, I played UM whoa pod, I played
• 1:07:08
  on chain pod. I played against folks who I knew, right, and
• 1:07:15
  folks I knew from discords and whatnot, like UM threw down. You know,
• 1:07:20
  I played decks with played cards with the Julie July and and number of
• 1:07:26
  different folks who are just good community members. And that was fun. That
• 1:07:30
  was fun. So you know, there was fun to be had. But
• 1:07:32
  but yeah, a little more where it was likely even in the past,
• 1:07:36
  and like FT like there were UM what they had they had their side the
• 1:07:44
  sealed events that they had during Arkham events. They had a team event,
• 1:07:46
  they had a reversal event, they had SaaS cap event one time, like
• 1:07:50
  there were other like basically around one o'clock or two o'clock or something like that
• 1:07:56
  in every major event, they fired another their side event for people that had
• 1:08:01
  been eliminated to play in that had additional prizing UM and those were always fun
• 1:08:08
  to be a part of. Yes, they were, and that a lot
• 1:08:12
  of and there were several people that would talked to me and it was like,
• 1:08:15
  yeah, I was really pumped about the team event. I knew I
• 1:08:16
  was gonna suck at this other event, but I had fun. I brought
• 1:08:18
  my team and we played as a team, like like these things matter,
• 1:08:24
  um as far as fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I know
• 1:08:30
  this is a little bit off, but what do you guys think about stopping
• 1:08:34
  sealed products? And we were limited on product that came in. But Sunday,
• 1:08:40
  before eleven thirty, it was announced that the last that was going to
• 1:08:44
  be the last event for pods. So it was it was twenty seven.
• 1:08:49
  It was before eleven thirty. I was in my first pod, so that's
• 1:08:54
  why I asked. And I had a different perspective because I played very late
• 1:08:57
  Saturday, so I was hoping to just be able to play some day.
• 1:09:00
  And I did get in one pod. But we had played our first game
• 1:09:03
  and then it was announced we're closing. We know the reason. Did they
• 1:09:06
  still out? Um? They had limited it. I don't know if they
• 1:09:13
  honestly sold out. I did grab two decks at the end, so they
• 1:09:18
  when they announced they were closing down, they they had enough decks to run
• 1:09:24
  another couple of pods. Um, I'll say three. I think the reason
• 1:09:33
  that it was stopped and I will say this is hypothesis, but my understanding
• 1:09:39
  was if you stop at twelve o'clock, you're running three rounds. So picture
• 1:09:43
  another, you know, forty five minutes three times, because that's what would
• 1:09:46
  be required out of a pod of eight in order to be able to get
• 1:09:49
  your three er person. That there was all the pods weself regulated, so
• 1:09:55
  most of the rounds were weren't even thirty minutes. They weren't thirty minutes and
• 1:10:00
  get through them all, I agree, But I do think that they were
• 1:10:02
  burned out at the end and so they wanted to just stop. And I
• 1:10:05
  know where we were on Live with our Sunday, so I give them a
• 1:10:10
  little bit of break there. I know they were limited on product, but
• 1:10:13
  that one did burn me a little bit because I was looking forward to something
• 1:10:16
  on Sunday. I didn't make top eight, and then it was like,
• 1:10:19
  well, you're in a pod and then we're just sitting because there was again
• 1:10:27
  there wasn't anything else to do, so we had a later flight. Maybe
• 1:10:30
  I was just looking forward to something more on Saturday. Was a lot of
• 1:10:33
  key for us. That was intense, but it wasn't necessarily anything very cash.
• 1:10:36
  Whereas before there was always an event on Sunday. Most of the people
• 1:10:40
  on Sunday played in that event. A few of them just stood around to
• 1:10:44
  watch the top whatever, but most people played random Sunday event, which is
• 1:10:48
  where in the very end, that's where the team event always was, because
• 1:10:53
  like you know, everyone's team is still kind of chilling out, hanging around,
• 1:10:56
  and that's where like the team event was the most popular it was for
• 1:11:00
  that Sunday slot. I opened it up because I was curious. I mean,
• 1:11:04
  I had a very restricted or focused perspective. But for me, that
• 1:11:09
  one bothered me a little bit. I would have loved to have seen another
• 1:11:12
  team event. I would have loved to have seen people just staying around.
• 1:11:15
  Even as I finished round ten on Saturday night, when people lost, they
• 1:11:19
  laughed that how the hall, even though it was just I understand that.
• 1:11:26
  But even like when seven o'clock hit Drazz, people were gone. We really
• 1:11:31
  like the numbers slimmed down. It was just who was left and their group
• 1:11:36
  that was social that was kind of waiting for those individuals. There were so
• 1:11:41
  many individuals like yeah, I'm out, I'm done, I'm leaving, and
• 1:11:44
  there wasn't anything else to do in the hall. You're just playing key Forge.
• 1:11:47
  But it was just like everyone laughed. And I do remember past events
• 1:11:53
  where hey, we finished and there would be sealed pods or there would be
• 1:11:57
  other side events happening, even on better day, and that didn't happen also,
• 1:12:01
  so I mean there were sealed pods and stuff, so there was stuff
• 1:12:04
  happening. But yeah, I mean it definitely wound down. Now. Part
• 1:12:08
  of it was I think even in those previous faults, like by the time
• 1:12:13
  I was getting as late as it was when you finished, like everything had
• 1:12:16
  already wound down and probably stopped at that point, right, So I don't
• 1:12:23
  mean to be fair there, y are like by seven most of us were
• 1:12:28
  leaving, even in the old days, because the whole of it was done
• 1:12:30
  by seven. That's when we would all be going to eat and then going
• 1:12:35
  to practice if we made day two. Like I think that was a big
• 1:12:39
  one too, like like anyone that, like, there are four people that'll
• 1:12:43
  be making top top eight coming from the loser's bracket in this model every time,
• 1:12:48
  Like those people are going to finish at a super late time, hopefully
• 1:12:54
  get a chance to eat something, go back, go to sleep, wake
• 1:12:57
  up, and being go well as the four winners who have been done since
• 1:13:00
  like three pm, Like I don't know, like that there's a drastic differt
• 1:13:05
  just the amount of rest going into day two. So that is also an
• 1:13:11
  interesting like wondering that happens here. Well, did they do anything different with
• 1:13:16
  second number this time around or was it still just a it was well it
• 1:13:20
  was even last they didn't have the raffle that did it. But but I
• 1:13:25
  I they didn't have their stuff right, so who knows? If we just
• 1:13:30
  don't know, we don't know how many people would admit, like yeah.
• 1:13:33
  Another thing that was confusing too, was like at a certain point, you
• 1:13:38
  know, I was playing second Number and then I was told like, oh,
• 1:13:40
  this might actually be casual because you know, they didn't really know what
• 1:13:44
  format they're actually supposed to be running. So then I was told just casual
• 1:13:46
  games. So I stopped playing at that point. But then prices come around
• 1:13:50
  turns out its second number, so I could have kept going there. M
• 1:13:55
  yeah, so it does to me sound like somehow it got worse than KFC,
• 1:13:59
  So I do think it's pretty bad on second number, like that was
• 1:14:03
  not an enjoy like like and that's what I say, Like as much as
• 1:14:06
  people are complaining about other things like the Friday and second Ember thing like those
• 1:14:13
  need to be really really good in my opinion, to like customer service wise,
• 1:14:16
  like you're entertaining a large group of people for a long period of time,
• 1:14:23
  and for a lot of them, this is going to be their vault
• 1:14:26
  experience. Like if you want them to come back, continue to spend money,
• 1:14:30
  tell all their friends how great this game is. Like that needs to
• 1:14:33
  be great. It needs to potentially be better than the actual like opie event
• 1:14:40
  it suf. Now we also should remember, I assume because it was so
• 1:14:45
  popular, the plan was to do the unchained showdowns where you know, somebody
• 1:14:50
  could try to win the most and if you lost two, you get it,
• 1:14:53
  you can buy a new Dak Like that was really popular at KFC.
• 1:14:57
  I assume they wanted to do that again. Yeah maybe, yeah, maybe
• 1:15:03
  they should. That would be cool. Um and uh all right, so
• 1:15:10
  I think, uh, send those emails at our kins corner dock can bald
• 1:15:15
  bast is great until you open one and then they suck. Just go buy
• 1:15:21
  more. Woe guys, if you want a good deck, get a display
• 1:15:25
  of whoa. And I'm not feeling at any of these questions. We went
• 1:15:31
  through this last week. Good luck alrighty, well, I think that's gonna
• 1:15:35
  do it for us this week. How gentlemen at once? Not all at
• 1:15:42
  once? Ye sheep? What do we got going on this week for our
• 1:15:48
  kins corner? Well, this week we're late in the week, so all
• 1:15:55
  that we got left is my Sunday Sealed. But next week, uh local
• 1:16:00
  car continues his trip down memory Lane and we'll be on to MM sealed with
• 1:16:05
  him. So there's an all MM sealed event next week. And then I
• 1:16:12
  still run an ARCon on Tuesdays. He is there playing games if people are
• 1:16:17
  interested, that's curious. All right, Well, final thoughts, see what
• 1:16:27
  you got. I am gearing up for gin Con. I'm trying to like
• 1:16:32
  figure out what they what I'm playing for this forced Alliance attendance there that's happening
• 1:16:38
  to me. I heard it's gonna be the biggest biggest ever recorded now in
• 1:16:43
  the three events. Oh yeah yeah, they're forcing Alliance on gin Con,
• 1:16:49
  so it will be the highest digit Alliance event. Well unless unless you know,
• 1:16:55
  bunch decide to go play board games. I mean, I still think
• 1:16:59
  that's the best way to boycott it. Actually, like I just do your
• 1:17:01
  ticket for it and then don't show up. So I have I have an
• 1:17:06
  Alliance ticket, so pay money to play it, but then don't show up.
• 1:17:12
  That's right. I'm gonna tell you why that's a bad idea. Drives
• 1:17:16
  Car what you got for final thoughts? Uh? So I am in the
• 1:17:19
  process of organizing prele release for my store, so generating some excitement for my
• 1:17:28
  locals, plus some hitting up the um Philly Discords to see if we can
• 1:17:34
  get some downtown folks to come out to the burbs. So yeah, I'm
• 1:17:39
  gonna do it on assuming we actually get the product Sunday. The thirtieth is
• 1:17:43
  also on a Paladin at three, so yeah, right, So I actually,
• 1:17:46
  what are the guys do to tell to be like, what are the
• 1:17:49
  chances it's gonna be on a train? So it was like NOD zero,
• 1:17:56
  but we're gonna try to make it happen. So FG had issues with boats,
• 1:18:00
  GG has issues with trains. We're good guys, So what you're telling
• 1:18:04
  me if we go with planes, we won't have any issues. Third Company,
• 1:18:09
  that's where it's going to be at Sheep. What you got for final
• 1:18:12
  thoughts this week? I don't have any thoughts. Okay, how do you
• 1:18:16
  walk well? I mean you had cash Jazz, go ahead and talk about
• 1:18:21
  the pre release. Definitely talk to your stores. Continue to build community.
• 1:18:25
  We have an amazing community. I'm very grateful. Even with these complaints.
• 1:18:29
  We complain because we love We love the community, we love the game,
• 1:18:32
  and we want to see it really continue to grow. UM Philly was a
• 1:18:38
  great time. The format really did hurt, but we're hoping that it can
• 1:18:44
  get better. Um Internationally, I'm going to continue to still support They're they're
• 1:18:48
  getting boned man, and we got to get product to them. I know
• 1:18:53
  that it's coming, so hopefully things will get better. And and Sheep both
• 1:18:58
  have boxes for sale. You might get there sooner. I mean for the
• 1:19:03
  right price, which is the wrong price for everybody else. I certainly have
• 1:19:06
  stuff for sale. They should just all move Wow. All right on that
• 1:19:18
  one. But we got some great advice from from ac here. I mean,
• 1:19:25
  depending on what you want to do in life, you gotta move right.
• 1:19:29
  You don't get to be an NBA player and not move to the States,
• 1:19:34
  right. You know, if you truly want to embrace fanaticism, like
• 1:19:40
  that's irrational logic. Oh my honey, we need to move to the United
• 1:19:45
  States because I want to play more key Let's see how that like a grouping.
• 1:19:48
  But for the Jeremy Vanya there you go. Yeah, darn, we
• 1:19:55
  forgot to ask Jeremy about the van. It was a ween ormobile man by
• 1:20:00
  the river. It's no longer than mobile because it would have had a palett
• 1:20:03
  of key forge in it. Yeah, we should tell him. We should
• 1:20:08
  write some dude, you need to get train because because clearly you can't trust
• 1:20:14
  the train with pop painted on the side of it. Guys, we should
• 1:20:21
  get a van. Wait, whose feed was that? Was? That?
• 1:20:25
  Was that your van? Sheep? No? Not van was all right,
• 1:20:33
  let's get let's get you just have beat meep. Let's gets he's man and
• 1:20:44
  you get more than one kid. You gotta go ahead and have space.
• 1:20:46
  And we I got by had the civic man getting back seat. Kids.
• 1:20:51
  Uh the seat is used now man. The um that we'll get he walks
• 1:20:58
  van and we'll paint we'll paint the Papa Choda on the side and we'll drive
• 1:21:03
  it to out to Minnesota and then we'll uh, you know, put a
• 1:21:09
  goofball horn on it and then well we'll hand the keys to chairman. Man
• 1:21:15
  I like this, we'll get then like you just you just ride of this
• 1:21:19
  man, go for a vault to vault. Yeah, get some key forges,
• 1:21:25
  flags you can flow, you know, put in the windows so you
• 1:21:30
  know you can't roll down your windows without them flying away. You know,
• 1:21:32
  they just drive down the road like that. Be sweet. I think we've
• 1:21:36
  wandered off into the totally dumb. Yeah, this is this is started there.
• 1:21:45
  We'll see y'all next week. Oh sorry, SI, you wouldn't want
• 1:21:54
  to hear him anyways. Everybody switching around in the chat. I don't even
• 1:21:59
  know what's going on here, and then he's just he's gone, like I
• 1:22:00
  don't even know what's going on. But well that we'll see y'all next week.
• 1:22:10
  May the Forge be with you. Drive this and spun, playing together
• 1:22:16
  like good friends should. Yes, Ma,