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AM S3 Ep2 Seeing Below the Surface · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are passionate about
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: the subject
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: of attachment.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm StoicMom.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this is Rose.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: The two of us found each other amidst the stormy waters of culture,
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: politics, and parenting trans-identified children.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Though our paths were different,
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: we each used the lens of attachment as a guide to find our way through.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Our hope for this podcast is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: the relationship between parents and their trans-identified children,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: despite all odds.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, listeners.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Good morning.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we are so excited to be here recording our episode two of season three
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: of Attachment Matters.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to welcome all listeners,
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: whether long-time listeners or maybe you're brand new to the podcast and
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: to these conversations.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: We just want to give a warm welcome to everyone.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're glad you're here.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Here in my part of the world, we're in peak fall.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: How about you?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: We are, and we've got some regional phenomenon here that is pretty spectacular.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm loving it.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have tamaracks, which are...
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Pine trees that have deciduous needles.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's wild.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: So they turn golden in the fall.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And they look soft and fluffy.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just such a beautiful and stark contrast to the other evergreens in the region.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds so beautiful.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm loving it.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's so beautiful.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a transplant to the Northeast,
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: so every time the New England fall hits the first couple weeks,
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, this year won't be as beautiful as last year.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: It'll probably not be as vibrant.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just waiting for the dull, disappointing fall year, and it just never happens.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's within a few days of me doubting that.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Doubting that nature is going to come through and be brilliant.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, okay, here we are.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's just almost a sensory overwhelm.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: The beauty is almost too much to take in.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's so beautiful.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what struck me as you were describing approaching the season and sort
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: of managing your expectations.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So as probably to not get disappointed, right?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like it almost sounds a little defensive, you know?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how interesting.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Prepare for being let down this year.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, here we are already talking about attachment behavior.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so cool.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I do remember those.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: I lived over there briefly on the East Coast, and it was
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: pretty spectacular.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep, so special.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, get ready everyone for our cozy conversation today.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: This cozy fall.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, those of you who are in,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: places that have the,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: the fall coziness, but, um,
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: today is sort of a setting the stage more or less before we really dive in to some
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: of our core season three content.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: In episode one,
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: I believe I gave a very brief, you know, sense of where we're going this season.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And really we are,
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: my hope is to look more deeply at this experience of facing separation and
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And really curate that conversation towards our core audience,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: who are mothers,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: fathers, parents, and family members, perhaps family friends of children.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Children of any age who have a transgender identity,
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: because I do feel like this idea of this experience and this construct that Dr.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld shares around facing the existential threat of separation and
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: the primal emotions that are evoked that move us from that
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: is just so...
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: so that's, you know, that is kind of the going to be the arc of season three.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think today I'm hoping to sort of set the stage a little bit,
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: whether for old longtime listeners or new listeners to sort of understand why
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: the Newfault approach is a little different than our So,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: before that even,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think as our conversation unfolds today,
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: we will likely be referencing ideas and material that we've covered in the past
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: that have really set the foundation of
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: For where you and I are able to have a conversation.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it's not the same place we were able to have a conversation two years ago.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because of all of the ground we've already covered.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so, especially now as we're,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: starting this new chapter of the podcast in season three,
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to encourage folks, you know, if you're not yet a subscriber yet,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Consider becoming a free subscriber,
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: but even so,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: if you are brand new,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would encourage folks to dive into the,
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: consider the paid subscription level to the podcast because
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: that is what will allow you access to the archive.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: And for those who are long,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: long time and already have found so much value in our conversations together,
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: I do also want to extend a heartfelt invitation to consider joining
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: the Attachment Matters community, which is a new offering starting this year.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that is open to anybody who's interested in that,
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: and interested in getting together with us monthly to talk through these concepts
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: and ask any questions and get clarification.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to reiterate, you know, the value
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: the insight that this model affords us.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a steal
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: to pay a small monthly subscription in order to have access to
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: that content.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And even the annual community membership,
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think is incredibly valuable in order to increase our capacity for that insight.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Which can offer much steadiness in these very divisive times.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and sort of serve as that North Star to guide us in our own internal experience
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: as well as we, you know, we're tasked with
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Not only with navigating the culture and some of the chaos
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: that is surrounding us outside, but we also...
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Through this type of experience,
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: it could be any number of experiences as a human,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: as a parent,
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: but certainly the experience of navigating a child who's adopted
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: a transgender identity is going to cause a lot of stormy waters internally,
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of rough seas of emotion and discernment.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I do believe that This attachment-based developmental model and
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: the content we're going to cover in Season 3 just does provide a North Star
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: for understanding our own landscape and how we are navigating these waters.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's hard to overstate.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: So a little bit,
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: where we've been,
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: season one, we,
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: really just started diving into the Dr.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Gordon Neufeld six-stage model of attachment, you know, really starting to...
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: To dig deeper into how he lays out attachment as a developmental process.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: We also explored some metaphors for attachment.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Attachment as a hammock that holds us, where we can rest and feel held, suspended.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Even in the air, we can be held by this sense of being safe and secure.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: As well as the metaphor of attachment being this external womb.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So while we gestate in our mother's wombs for nine months before we're ready
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: to be independent in the world,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: physically,
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: attachment,
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: once we're out of the womb,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Ideally provides this sense of protection and growth over the next years of our life
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: in order for us to become independent and viable on our own as adults.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Even just as you're describing that,
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: the sense of peace and rest, you know, and that idea that we are always held safe.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's the safety that we need and that is so lacking, it seems, in today's world.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that sense
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: that we are
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: safe is what comes to mind.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm thinking of those levels of attachment that we cover,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know, in detail in season one and two.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, absolutely.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know if this is what you were kind of saying,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: but what I heard you say is like,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: even just talking about it, we can kind of feel it.
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  SPEAKER_00: We can start to settle into that rest.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: What allows us to rest.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we covered,
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know, those stages.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: We covered talking about it through those metaphors.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then we also ended up talking quite a bit in season one about this concept of alpha.
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  SPEAKER_00: So this is one of the constructs that Dr.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld has really gifted those of us who are,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: have encountered his work with,
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: which is this idea that attachment is hierarchical,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: which is extremely countercultural.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: In so many ways and even within those who consider themselves
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: to be countercultural currently I'd say in the world
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: of like online parenting discourse you know all of these battles
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: of you know How we should let kids be, where has childhood gone?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was just reading something on Substack just this morning, just glancing.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, this guy is so close.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: He's so close.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: He's just let kids do free play, let kids do all these things.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was just like peer interaction, peer interaction, peer interaction.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think I know of whom you speak and it's a world that I inhabited for a long time.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Which is, it's not that it's wrong.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's just where we're missing this piece of like being a warm,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: strong alpha and All of that is absolutely critical.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I think sometimes what's often missing is recognizing the importance of
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: that happening within a cocoon or a warmth of safety and attachment
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: that simply is not provided by the immature for the immature.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: That is the role of the parent or the caring adult to be.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: To provide for those attachment needs that allow the child to go out and embark in
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: the world with confidence and a free sense of play.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my little soapbox.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully I won't have another one.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: That was fresh on my mind this morning.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm practicing restraint because I think even here we could spend an episode on this idea.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: So again,
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: referring listeners back to season one where we did have a lot
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: of this conversation around the importance of alpha and
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: the
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: risk tolerance of That
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: that provides,
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: when you feel like you have got a strong presence that protects you from the arrows
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: of this wounding world.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: That actually gives you more freedom to get out there and experiment and take risks
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: and learn and play.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, absolutely.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that was kind of, you know, and I think season one, two just shared a lot of rich story.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of rich story,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: our own experiences,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: examples,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: and a lot of heartfelt just sharing and back, you know, exchange with one another.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of what set the stage.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then we moved into season two where we got,
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: I would say, more,
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say analytical,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: but we just explored a lot more detail in terms of Dr.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld's attachment-based developmental model.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: So just like his masterwork, his theoretical model.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the three prongs of which he speaks to as attachment, maturation, and the defenses.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: So vulnerability and the defenses.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that was season two.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a lot.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think the reason why I just want to speak to it briefly here is because I think
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: as we go into the rest of our conversation today,
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: we're probably going to be referencing those constructs,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: talking about those different pieces and And we will be throughout,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know, the podcast.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so just again,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: want to encourage folks,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: sign up for that paid subscription and you'll be able to go back and reference a lot
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: of that archive where we dive deep and in much detail into that model.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had recent conversations,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know, in my community, the tapestry at the Stoic Mom Project.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: How...
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I say with clients too,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: but how helpful it can be to have the vocabulary,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: to understand what moves us as we talk about, to have that insight.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Once we name it, we kind of locate ourselves in the process.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that's incredibly comforting.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Very comforting.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So all of this is the foundation we're going to be building upon throughout Season 3.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what you're saying is a very perfect segue in my mind for
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: where I want us to go in conversation today.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that is when you speak to that being so comforting.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a bridge into
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: this realization that we are going to be in our way
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: of interpreting ourselves,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: our own emotions,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: our own reactions,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: our own behavior,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: as well as our children's, you know, and those we're in relationship to.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Whether we want it to be this way or not, we're working from a set of assumptions.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And what I hear you speaking to with
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: that comforting aspect is it's almost like moving from one set of assumptions and
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: then kind of shifting a little bit to what
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: if this is here for a reason?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: What if I can develop a relationship to this emotion,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: to this behavior, to this reaction that's just so challenging and troubling to me?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you and I have used the word paradigm often as we're talking through this material.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And really what it offers is a different paradigm for what it means to be human.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that can be pretty destabilizing.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: To reach a point in your life where those underlying assumptions
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: that have been mostly unconscious, I think a lot of the time, come into question.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you realize the paradigm you've been operating in isn't working very well for you.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: That is not comforting.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's the opposite.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's very, destabilizing.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: So as we often say, as you're listening,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Listen with gentleness for yourself and grace.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've also spoken to the destabilizing experience
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: of even reading Neufeld's book,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hold On To Your Kids,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: because as you're reading it,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: it can bring up a lot for moms who are like, I didn't know this.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I didn't know this.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was applying,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know, Yes.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it is, we'll draw upon a newfound construct here, this idea of futility.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I have so much in my life story that I can look back and say,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, if I knew then what I know now, you know, but you can't go back.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the futilities that is a shared human experience.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: Coming up against,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know, something I know now, but I didn't know it then, and I can't go back.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: don't want to get too far off on a tangent, but maybe that's there for a reason.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I will also say, to be able to look at that requires something.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: The conditions have to make it possible for us to even look.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Without grace, it can be too threatening.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Being able to be vulnerable.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And have the grace or receive it from others.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: and this might help bring us back where,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: I know we want to head next, but you're saying, you know, there's a reason for it.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's here for a reason.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: These emotions exist for a reason.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I will say that I've always been drawn to Or for at least as long
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: as I can remember, a developmental model.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: You said that a few times.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: A developmental model rather than one of pathology
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: where our emotions are suddenly not okay, which makes it unsafe
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: to look.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's exactly where we want to go.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So really to sort of
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Set the framework for where we're headed,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: where we've been and where we're going to continue to go.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's just kind of comparing and contrasting these dominant cultural approaches
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: and contrasting with what Dr.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld calls this developmental attachment-based approach.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And how he lays this out when he speaks about it sometimes is just saying,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: reminding us that science is not just a set of facts.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we say, well, is it science?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: Science says this or science says that.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is that there's always going to be human interpretation of any set of facts.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: An interpretation that is informed by those underlying assumptions.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it is those assumptions that are going to determine what interpretations we take.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: So with that,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: what he sort of lays out is let's talk
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: about how this developmental model is different from two of the other most,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say the most dominant models for underlying assumptions
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: in our culture currently, which is the behavioral model and the medical model.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: When we look at the medical model, what we're doing is really focusing on finding disorder.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what ends up being this idea of pathology, like where is the disorder?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: That we can fix, usually.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of looking where he contrasts that with the developmental model or
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: the developmental approach is that there is an underlying order.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's this sort of assumption that, you know, nature has its reasons.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's a fundamental order.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can have insight into what may have gotten that order stuck or blocked
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: or what might have veered from that versus we're going to identify the pathology and
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: then treat the pathology.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes that's with a diagnosis or with medication.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what he talks about is that The goal of that medical model
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: is
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: to
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: do symptom management and to get someone to sort of perform at a higher level.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's more to get them to adapt to To what the culture is.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Today.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: if you're not functioning in today's world,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's you that's disordered, not the culture.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to fix you and plug you back in.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of go to work, go to school, you know, interact appropriately, you know.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Which is interesting because there is,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: an unconscious then underlying assumption that Nature is pumping out
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: a disordered species.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's fundamental flaws in the design.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: And us as doctors, experts, are here to fix those.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it also sets sort of the medical profession and doctors up as like,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know, if we talk about alpha-independent.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: We come to depend upon them.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there's reasons for,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: there's good reason to depend on,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: like if you're in a car accident,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: you better believe we need to depend on the surgeons.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: We need to depend on the medical professionals to save our lives.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: That is why I'm not challenging that in any way.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: But when we take on this understanding of like emotion and human behavior,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: and then we medicalize that and We put ourselves in this position of,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know, the doctors know more.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: They are the experts.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And what they say about,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: let's say,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: a cluster of symptoms as a diagnosis,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: we are subservient to that in a sense in terms of how we are defining ourselves and
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: or our children under that model.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot in that, you know, and what that asks us to outsource.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Our own intuition.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Subservient is an interesting word, but yes, yes.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's that hierarchy that you're describing where we are now looking to
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: the doctors to be the alpha over our health.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes in a very
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: life-altering
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: direction.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And there is something to that too, I think.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: How to even approach this.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: When you talk about the dominant cultural approaches, I hear narratives, I hear stories.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And as humans who are meaning makers, the stories are so important to our experience.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what we're talking about here is which story are you inhabiting?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: The one where humans are disordered.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, or the one where there's order to it.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a reason for the emotions because the other thing that happens in
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: the medical model is we interrupt these natural processes.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so they don't follow through to their natural conclusion for us.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Which is intended to contribute to our development, our ongoing development.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so everybody's kind of stunted.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: And understandably so, you know, because this is the story of our culture right now.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Which we are going to be inclined,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know, toward.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: To meet our attachment needs of belonging.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, to be part of the group, to sharing the same worldview or following the same...
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Norm, so this,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad I just said norm,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: because what he talks about,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: and we can also talk about the comparing to the behavioral model,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: which we've talked a lot about in past episodes,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: where we're really trying to control behavior through altering consequences, right?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the underlying assumption there is that we're either a blank slate,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: or we're sort of inherently wild, right?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's a smulter approach, right?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, though.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: I interrupted you.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, I love it.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Interrupt away.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: We're that stone that needs to be chiseled and shaped from the outside in order
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: to civilize us or to shape our behavior,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: make us fit so that this whole thing is like fit in society.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: The goal is to fit in society.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So just like the goal for the medical is like, can you perform with the behavioral?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Very similar, but you know, social fit, social fit.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the norm light bulb went off for me because what Dr.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Neufeld speaks to With comparing and contrasting the behavioral and
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: the medical model,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: these underlying assumptions and how even the model and approach is structured is
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: that both the medical model and
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: the behavioral model are structured around what is normative.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the developmental model,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: at least his,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: he always says developmentalist and he talks about it in general,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: but I often wonder like,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: but I think you,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: like this,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just see him as this guiding light even within developmentalist because he's
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: so focused on the attachment piece with that.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: But what he speaks to is like, no, we need to look at the top 5%.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean like IQs or anything like that,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: but just like, Who, you know, where have, how are people flourishing?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: How does an adolescent look who's had all these conditions met?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: who's developing integrated functioning,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: who is able to have their tiers and,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know, is able to have time for creativity and play and emergence.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: His approach is like,
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: how do we reach the fullness of potential versus we're going to set our standard on
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: the norm?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Which is so interesting because there isn't even really a norm.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like even that is a story made up from statistics, you know, that's not how humans work.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can't take all of these qualities and traits and progress,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: right, benchmarks and average them to get a norm.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's not, it doesn't work that way.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: We've got people all over the place still, you know.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's a, it's a, it's a sort of a mathematical, I don't want to say myth, but it's misleading.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then, yeah, yeah.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then we take that cookie cutter and we just put it right on,
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know, our,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: if we put that,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: let's say in the medical model, well,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: either the behavioral or the medical,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: but as you take that cookie cutter and And you see others as experts and you kind
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: of give up that agency.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'll speak to it just as parents.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Experts understand my child better than me.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: My child's behavior needs to have social fit.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Then again, we're kind of in that dependent mode versus being in our alpha mode.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we kind of,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm losing the specific word,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: but we're kind of giving up the ground that we actually should be holding.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Outsourcing again, yeah.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're outsourcing, yeah.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're outsourcing.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really, it's so built into our systems that it doesn't even occur to us to question it.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when the education system is what it is and we are apart from our children.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: For so much of the day.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it is just so embedded in our culture that it can be threatening,
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think, to be invited to explore the things we're talking about.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: So just to sort of lay out maybe what I can speak to a little bit more here is,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: when we're talking about the developmental approach,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: so how is that different, right, than these two other models and approaches?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: One thing he speaks to with the medical is almost like you see
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: The medical model looking at adults and finding these diagnoses or problems
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: in adults and then kind of saying,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: okay, well, we also could take that same diagnosis, put it on kids, right?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: So almost like going in reverse that way and just, you know.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess what pops out to me in this example is, well,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: if medications,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: let's say psychiatric medications or ADHD medications
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: or whatever these medications may be, Okay,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: we're using them on adults,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: but we should also be using them on five-year-olds, right?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or we should also be using them on teens and just keep on going backwards, backwards, backwards.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Not really looking at how that could actually be different for a child,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: how that might impact development.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so in contrast with the developmental approach, it's really looking at those antecedents.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: How did this begin?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's going back,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: but instead of placing the adult framework on the child,
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: it's looking at how did this come about within that developmental process of
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: the child's growth unfolding?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: And once the problem is there,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: how do we go back to And address kind of the antecedents
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: that may have been what set off this problem in the first place.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: And would antecedents include all the context?
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's what comes to mind to me as we're contrasting this to the past.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Pathological model or pathologizing things,
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: is we're talking about plugging people back into the context and it's really
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: the context that's disordered.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you take a normal,
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: healthy human being and put them in a disordered context,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: What we're going to see is behavior that looks disordered in the individual.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: If that's what we're looking at
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: and that's what we are assessing is how well they function in this context and
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: when they're not,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: we see the disorder in the individual, then we're compelled to treat it.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like going back to,
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: in episode one,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: I spoke to this example of my friend and her son
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: and her son having this huge attacking energy and threatening her
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: and threatening his little brother with violence,
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: even having like expressing like wanting to end his own life.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this is like a little kid, you know, like nine, 10 years old.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: And how frightening and destabilizing this was for her.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: To see this level of aggression with the medical model, boom, he needs medication.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: He has a pathology.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: He is disordered.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Boom.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is scary.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: From applying the Neufeld Developmental Attachment-based model,
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: we're going, okay, what happened before that?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: What was the attacking energy?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: What was the trigger?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: What moved this child to be so overwhelmed with frustration?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: And frustration looks violent.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, attacking energy is attacking energy.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's swear words.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's threats.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be very messy, no matter what.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Can't get around it.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if you can understand it as that and then go back and say, what isn't working for him?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: That these big emotions had to come out.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then we can work with that and approach him with compassion and not be so scared too.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: Not be so alarmed ourselves.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: That there's something fundamentally wrong with our child that needs to be fixed.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: A flaw in who he is in the world versus like there was a really difficult experience for him.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps his being very sensitive, it's going to come out in this really big messy way.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that there are other...
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: I almost hesitate to go here,
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know, to being open to this insight, you know, as we talked about before.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: We have to be safe enough to see it.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: And there are so many things working against us
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: to give us the capacity to address
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of the underlying factors that could lead to something like that.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: And like realistically speaking,
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: that what the developmental model asks of us can feel too overwhelming.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why we're not here.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just say for myself, I'm not here to try to convince people or coerce.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: And Dr. Neufeld speaks to this.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I can't change underlying assumptions.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: I can't change that for anyone, including my friend who I had that conversation with.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe for the first,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: maybe not the first time,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: but it was like,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: A good thing for me to share some insight that I could share,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: but also let go that I'm not going to,
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: if the path she is on is to ultimately put her son on medication,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: I can't change that.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: I really can't.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what's best for her.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, I don't.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not living her life.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not in her home.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: I can share these little pieces hoping that they might be helpful.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not here to try to change those assumptions,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: but I think that those who are following the podcast and have gained
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: from it are moving in this place of, at some level, this approach speaks to you.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: At some level, this is helpful.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: At some level, even if you're finding...
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Challenge and feeling unsettled in the process,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: maybe there is a layer of comfort that you've also experienced
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: with these constructs
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: of moving out of that sculpting mode or that pathologizing mode and resting in
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: the sense of wanting to work as cultivating a garden,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's with ourselves or with our children.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess it's an invitation.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's an offering of a different perspective for those who are ready
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: or who are for
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: whom this story isn't working.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Who might be in that destabilizing space of feeling that same overwhelm as that kid
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: and feeling just that sense of what I'm doing is not working.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's, I think,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_01: when we're often invited to explore our own underlying assumptions and And
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: to potentially then find the,
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: or even using that intuition to feel into a framework that feels more aligned.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: A word that Neufeld uses is, does this resonate?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you've been here listening with us,
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: it speaks to, and you're still coming back, there's something that's resonating.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean we're not going to experience some alarm or some grieving of
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: the past or some more uncomfortable emotions along the way,
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: but if there's something that has resonated, there is this
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's a reason why people come back to this approach.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: There's a reason why I came back to it because there was something there
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: that just deeply resonated for me.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking too of the maze that we talk about so often
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: when we find ourselves bumping up against that wall and sort of the futility
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: that can land on Around these other narratives,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know, when they're just not working for you.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: And grieving, you know, grieving that reality.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: And what it may ask or feel like it's asking of you.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think I appreciate how much you've said the word narrative and stories
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: as we've talked today.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a reminder to me
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: that, you know, our stories are not done yet.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: My story is certainly not done, you know.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes for us when we are in those places of like, I feel like,
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: things feel bleak or we feel like we're stuck in a place that,
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know, isn't working and we want to make a change.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know how or, you know, we don't see the way.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: We've hit a wall in that maze and we don't know which way is the right way to turn,
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: to try something different.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just to try to have faith that— We can.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: We might not know the end result.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: We might not know the exit.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: How to get to that exit of the maze yet.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: We are walking blindly in some ways, but we do get to keep on walking.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: We do get to keep on walking.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm just wondering if that's part of the beauty inherent in a developmental model.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: That you can trust what's happening.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's there for a reason.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: And kind of being able to identify yourself in a map of, oh, there is a direction here.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Life continues.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, this isn't the end.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then finding those spaces that hold you there.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Meet you there and potentially offer a little more illumination of the path.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:51
  Right.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: And this kind of brings me to something I wanted to speak to.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully it makes sense here with what we've been talking about with the maze
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: and everything we've just laid out.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: With the attachment-based developmental approach,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: what he talks about is the model is what needs to be sound.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then our practice needs to be flexible.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: So as we have these insights and that map like you're talking about,
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: that we can say, okay, in this situation,
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm observing,
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's myself or my spouse or my child,
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: the person I'm interacting with, okay, there's a huge attacking energy here.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: So then we have that insight.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like what we do in that moment can be different each time.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: It may require us to be different each time how we then respond,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: but it's having that initial insight.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Where we can kind of see underneath not just the symptom, but what lies underneath it.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: That then asks of us to kind of be flexible with how we then approach.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Which way do we turn in that maze?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: What are we going to try next?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: What are we going to try today?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I've heard him say this, and I still try to really embody it.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: How does this land with me?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: What does this mean for me?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I do love that contrast of a solid model of insight,
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: but I need to develop my flexibility within it.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: What it's bringing to mind for me when you speak of it that way,
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: that if you know the model is sound,
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's going to come through that resonance.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is this resonating?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that trust that we were just talking about.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: If the model is sound,
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to have that same safety or that same risk tolerance that I was talking
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: about in the beginning.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can play with it a little bit.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: You can try things.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: The stakes aren't what they used to be.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: And when we turn down the volume,
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: when we can lower the stakes,
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: we're not operating out of that fear and anxiety and stress,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: where we have to fix the behavior because there's something wrong with my kid.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or if there's something wrong with my kid, there's something wrong with me.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: I've failed.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: But if there's a reason for the behavior, right?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: If there's a reason, if we can get to that, those...
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: Inner springs of what's driving the behavior that gives us something to respond
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: to rather than react to.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: And to, if I might, play with.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know it doesn't feel like play when you're responding to something that looks so terrifying.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: But if we lower the stakes, it's less scary.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: We can be more responsive.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so much of that container being the attachment.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because what I think of when you say that is just even like moments this weekend
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: where let's,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: with my partner where when our attachment isn't sahad or warm,
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know, a conflict has such a sharp and scary aspect to it.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's very hard to soften.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: But when we're in a good,
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: warm attachment,
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: there were times just this past weekend where I said something kind of ridiculous
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: and potentially wounding or off-putting,
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: and I saw her face with this annoyance,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: but then right away we both broke into laughter.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: like I was able to,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: it was like those moments,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: and this happens with my kids a lot too,
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: where I'm like having a,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know, what I say, I'm, okay, I went from zero to 100, guys.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're very familiar with this with me.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I try to talk about it very, you know, own it, you know.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes at the dinner table,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm like super grouchy about something,
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: but then it's like I can turn it into play.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: Laugh at myself.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: They can laugh at me.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like we can all soften into something that is like,
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: this is actually not the end of the world.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is actually not a crisis.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is actually not.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I have to soften.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: I have to be able to lighten.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: I have to be able to get out of that frustration or work mode or whatever you want
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: to call it and get into that play zone enough that they can be safe to do so too.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you're tending your own internal conditions to create that safety.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's like the flexibility, right?
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, ding, ding, ding.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do I want to be in this place?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Are conditions conducive that I can kind of soften and laugh and maybe it's going
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: to help the whole thing go better,
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Turn it into something to kind of joke around about.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: And once you experience that a few times, you know, it's quite wonderful and reinforces.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: Continued insight, if I might, right?
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: You might find that it does resonate.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the developmental...
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: The attachment-based development model, we're hoping, you know, we're here.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'll speak for myself.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here because I feel that the model is sound.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's resonated with me deeply.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's had such a positive impact on my life.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's called upon me to be more flexible.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: And just contrasting that with, you know, we're not looking for pathology or disorder.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're not looking for how do we control behavior through consequence.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're trying to go underneath.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: And understand,
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: the deeper instinct and emotion at play,
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: those inner springs that you've been speaking to so beautifully all episode.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Understanding what's going on inside of me and hopefully gaining more insight
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: into what's moving those that I'm in relationship to.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I'm here.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I am obsessed with what moves us as humans.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: And if I can contribute to more maturity,
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: which is really what Neufeld's model is all about as I see it,
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: is creating the conditions for our maturity and our flourishing
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: to unfold.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: That makes for a better world.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this world needs more maturity.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: And we are all wired
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: to mature.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: Every single one of us in this model, right?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the story of this model.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: We can all do it and it's never too late.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: That acorn holding that design for the oak tree,
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: and how do we How do we tend to the soil and the sunlight and the rain needed for it
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: to grow and unfold bare fruit?
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's the invitation.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes delivered to your inbox.
• 56:46
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• 56:52
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• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you are the family member of a trans-identified child,
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: you might find yourself craving more ways to understand
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: and apply attachment concepts within your family.
• 57:05
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• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: For access to a private platform with live Q&A sessions with the two of us and
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: a place to share insights and breakthroughs with one another.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: As always,
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the comments
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: and hope you will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.