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Anti-Aging Brain Health Myths Most Believe: A Stanford Doctor Debunks Dementia, Brain Aging & More · The LIVING Room Podcast | Inside The WNDR Lab

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's probably the thing that frightens us the most about getting older, right?
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: That we lose this independence or our sense of identity.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: In their sixties, they can do certain cognitive exercises that are facilitated by feedback environments, virtual environments.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Their scores on some executive functions can be reversed to put them back in the scores of much younger people.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think cell phones are going to be replaced by uh other technologies like smart glasses.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think instead of um looking down at a device and going like this, we will be looking through a device and we'll be speaking.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because they'll look at a grocery store shelf and they'll see information of what might be the best thing for them to buy in the moment to improve their health.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: We know there are things we can do now to protect against mild cognitive impairment or physical decline.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: There are some cognitive exercises you can do that will have reversed some of the decline that we have in cognitive measurements that occur in all of us over time.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: We can reverse that and help people who are in their 60s start scoring in the same zone of people in their 20s and 30s.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: For those people listening that are in their 60s, 70s, and above, what is the first line of defense?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: We can have techniques like having a conversation with your virtual future self that looks like you but age progressed 20 years.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you exercise more, maybe follow the right nutrition and your future self looks better, looks healthier, maybe the background they're in looks like a better environment.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you are drinking more than you want to be drinking and you're continuing to do that, and your future self gives you a call on your cell phone saying, hey, we talked about this.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the point is we can close the feedback loop in a way that is motivating.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Things, especially for healthcare, need to be science-based, based on facts and research as opposed to theories and not based on fats.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Many people are going to be living to their 90s and beyond, but without good cognitive function.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if we have the same percentage of people with uh neurodegenerative disease as we have now, 20 years from now, it's going to bankrupt uh the world economy.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you were in a room with all of your family members, what would be your number one piece of advice to protect their brain for the next 10, 20, 30 years?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm joined today by Dr.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Walter Greenleaf, a pioneering neuroscientist and one of the world's leading authorities on virtual reality, digital medicine, and the future of human health.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Walter has spent more than three decades at this intersection of neuroscience, immersive technology, and healthcare.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: He's worked with Stanford University's Virtual Human Interaction Lab and helped pioneer some of the earliest medical applications of virtual reality.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: He's advised governments, research institutions, and health technology companies all around the world.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: His work explores technologies like VR and AI biosensors and digital therapeutics that could fundamentally reshape mental health, rehabilitation, aging, cognition, and even the future of longevity medicine itself.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're going to explore where humanity and technology collide and whether immersive medicine could change the future of HealthSpan.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy, friends, and as always, welcome to the living room.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Walter, you have spent the past, correct me if I'm wrong, 40 plus years working in a space that most of us have only recently or relatively recently started even thinking about.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so virtual reality and um and AI, but more importantly, the implications of that on our health.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think most of us think when we think virtual reality, that's sort of synonymous with gaming or or some sort of entertainment.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: My first question is Did everyone think that you were insane when you first started on that journey?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good question.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I think they thought they didn't think I was insane, but they thought I was wasting my time.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because it did seem like it was a I I'm a neuroscientist and I love solving health-related problems.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And my my colleagues and friends thought, why are you bothering with this uh nascent technology that it is very game-like and very science fiction-like?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but uh given time, things worked out.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Was it grossly expensive, I assume so, and grossly inefficient when you first Well, it was grossly expensive for sure.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: The uh the computers we used were silicon graphics machines and they were the size of a small refrigerator and cost a half a million dollars.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: The headsets cost a hundred thousand dollars.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um but they weren't inefficient in the sense we could do research and we could get results.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Even with a low resolution display like you would have had in the first version of the movie Tron, yeah, we were still able to help people with post-traumatic stress, we were still able to help people with pain, help people with uh fear of heights.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it it's not the resolution uh that that was the critical part of what we were doing.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: But we were able to make it we can do so much more now with today's technology.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and how what you know, what was the first point at which you felt very validated in that being an area of research?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there must have been some kind of breakthrough where you're like, this is has real application for health specifically.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think um we it's been a gradual incremental thing, but we've we now have a a a library of research studies showing the impact of uh how we can use uh virtual environments and now augmented reality environments with smart glasses technology and mixed reality, um how we can show how they can make a difference with addictions, how it can make a difference with stroke rehabilitation, how it can make a difference with uh um helping people with uh weight management issues, uh and all these points of of proof were done with small sample sizes and with uh expensive equipment, and we're mostly done with an academic population.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, but they showed us the pathway.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And now with larger studies, with better equipment, we've been able to go back to those early proof points and go deeper.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: But it didn't take too long to start seeing there was value in this technology, it just took a long time for it to be affordable and something that could be done outside of a research lab.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think people certainly when I first got exposed to that technology with in relation to how to optimize you know health, and we use this daily now.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I think it for most people listening, it might feel a little gimmicky, right?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like how does that actually improve symptoms of PTSD or anxiety or weight management?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Can you explain a little bit about you know how that works?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like mechanistically, I guess.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, um, I love the ex expression that my uh my colleague Jeremy Baelinson uses is that virtual reality is experience on demand.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so we can create an experience.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're trying to learn something or master a skill, reading about something or watching a video is not an experience.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: So by using a virtual environment, we can get our hands in, our body in, and really engage our mind because we're blocking out the outside world.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: We can take you someplace else.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, what just one perhaps overused example is when we put someone uh top of a tall building and we have a plank and we ask them to walk out onto the plank, even though they know they're talking to their friends are around them in their room, they know they're not on top of a skyscraper about to walk onto a plank, they can't do it.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or they have trouble doing it because their brain says, I'm up there.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we can create an experience, we can evoke a cognitive state, we can evoke an emotional state.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to change a cognitive state, if you want to change an emotional reaction, you need to be able to create it on demand.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the power of the technology.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: The the other thing that really works is that we can personalize the experience.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, now with today's technology, we can measure what you're attending to, what is changing your heart rate or your eye gaze direction, and make that experience something that is um um grabbing your attention and teaching you the skill that you want to use.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: So clinically, we might be helping someone who's had a traumatic brain injury or a stroke relearn um a movement or a cognitive process by breaking it down into small steps and giving them positive feedback for the progress they make and understanding what where where their deficits are and what they need to work on.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we can also um evoke um we can take them someplace they may not want to go.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: If we're helping someone who's had trauma um learn how to manage the triggers they have that might be creating anxiety, or if we're trying to help someone who has an addiction who is uh trying to learn how to manage their cravings, we can teach them refusal skills, we can teach them relaxation skills, but we have to be able to take them to that spot.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess you're taking them to that spot in a way that is not adding danger or risk, right?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like Exactly.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: Assuming someone has a fear of heights or um was that agrophobia, is that right?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um or they are scared of spiders or or they're trying to quit smoking or drinking or whatever that addictive behavior might be.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: You're putting you're immersing them effectively in that experience.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're taking you someplace uh you if I try and get you to think about the thing that is the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to you, uh, or the thing that scares you the most, your brain's not going to go there.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I can gradually take you there in in a way that's comfortable for you if you have fear of flying.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: I can have you look at the table where the airline tickets are, get into the cab and go to the airport, wait in line at the checkout counter.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if you start getting too overwhelmed, I can say, let's slow down and then teach you breathing skills, relaxation skills.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: But if I'm asking you to use your imagination, say, imagine going to the airport, you're not going to go there.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not going to be able to teach you the skills because we can't create that anxiety response as well as we can using the some the virtual environments.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and is that You know, I'm assuming that you have scanned the brain's reaction to these things, right?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: With uh, I don't know, fMRI or whatever whatever tools you might be using.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is there not an element of like our psyche that's saying this is not we know this is not real, right?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it actually do you see that mirroring of brain uh of um the uh the brain function actually?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean we see in the in with the scans that we can do is that the the reaction to the virtual environment is uh identical to the the real environment.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: We really are taking someplace people someplace else.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we can use that as a place to do exposure therapy.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or in the case of like uh pain, we we know we can distract them from the pain experience and teach them the cognitive skills to manage the pain that we otherwise can't do because they're focused on the pain.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell And does that result in, you know, with prolonged exposure, does that change our brains?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think this I mean maybe it's worth explaining the you know term neuroplasticity.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: And do we see do we see that like physiological change in our brain?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: We um it's like any time you're learning something, the the brain changes and adapts.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we can see in you know some of the imaging studies that have been done, and we we need to do more.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's we need to do um go deeper with today's technology.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: But no, this uh these are these are changes in the brain that result of an experience that you have that we can create in a controlled way using a synthetic environment.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Structural changes in your brain?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd say more functional uh changes in the brain.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Which which are structural changes, but let's switch gears a little.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like we we primarily here are focusing on how to you know improve and protect against some of these signatures of aging.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like how do we improve brain function, how do we improve physiology, heart and lung function, metabolic health, and so on.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Can you give us um your perspective on how some of these tools can help us sort of build this suit of armor?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sort of um, and we used this term earlier, how do we sharpen the saw before it gets blunt?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's a couple ways we can use these tools.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh one way is better assessments, uh, the other is um better interventions.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'd say the most powerful thing we can do is to uh personalize the assessment and the intervention to understand what works for the for the individual.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I guess the fourth thing to put on top of that is that we can also put a narrative story on top of all this.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes working on something that involves your health is boring.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's ineffable, it's hard to understand and see the results of what you're doing.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: If it takes like a month before you see the results of what you're doing, it's hard to keep doing it.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: But we can have techniques like having a conversation with your virtual future self that looks like you but age progressed 20 years.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you can see, and then sounds pretty harrowing.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: It can't be, it definitely can be.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: But if you exercise more, maybe follow the right nutrition and your future self looks better, looks healthier, maybe the background they're in looks like uh a better environment.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, or if you are drinking and more than you want to be drinking and you're continuing to do that, and your future self gives you a call on your cell phone saying, hey, we talked about this.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: So the point is we can close the feedback loop in a way that um uh is motivating.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we can take what we've learned from our friends in the entertainment industry and in the gaming industry to understand the individual's uh motivation style, like what are what are their goals?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we some people are motivated by being part of a group, other people are motivated by being at the top of the leaderboard.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: We can take these different paradigms and because we have control of the feedback loop, personalize the what we're trying to do to help them have better health care to enhance uh health span.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we can do that by um by closing a feedback loop in a way that makes sense to them and they see the value of what they're doing.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: So so we can effectively sort of play it forward, right?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you were to stick to this nutrition plan and this exercise regime and you know, this optimal sleep routine, this is what you can expect to feel, look, perform like in the future.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: Is that I guess is that A what you're suggesting?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And B, is that a way in which we can help people adhere to the things we know to work?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can also do more functional and objective assessments.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: One of the big problems in the field of cognitive um research is and and also studying uh in the field of psychiatry and psychology, is being able to measure um more accurately an individual's response.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: But in a virtual environment, it's a wearable sensor.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: We can capture eye gaze information, we can capture facial expressions, we can capture voice tone, and we can dynamically change the experience based on those signals.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's an immediate feedback loop too.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just we can give them feedback loop of how their behavior will change their future self.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: We can also do a better job of uh in a culturally appropriate, age-appropriate way, creating a context instead of saying, How are you feeling today?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: or do this task and we're going to measure what you do.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: We can have them go on a journey with others and see how they're socially behaving, and we can see the choices they make.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we can measure behavior and we can see how people respond dynamically in real time.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think when we talk about aging, both internally, and you and I spoke about this off-camera, but with our members and our other board members, I think one of the things that strikes me as the most anxiety-inducing for probably our listeners, but just people in general, is this um idea that we, as we age, will experience this cognitive decline.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think we have a good grip on how do we sort of physically stay resilient as we get into our latter years.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: But the um clarity around how we do that cognitively seems a little more um nuanced and and probably muddier water.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like how how can you help listeners understand how we can protect against mild and severe cognitive decline and what tools might be appropriate to start using and when?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's a question where we are need to go deeper with our research, uh, like many areas, but in particular in this area, uh because it's hard to measure.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's been hard.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: We have new tools now, but heretofore it's been very hard to measure uh precisely cognitive states.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the problems we're most worried about, like Alzheimer's, uh take years to develop.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So and it and the noise of not having objective measurements of cognitive function has made it very hard to come up with new therapies.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: That said, I think with the new tools we have now, we will be able to measure things a little bit more precisely.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And to address your question in terms of um what do we know is impactful uh in terms of that?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh a lot of the I'm sure you've uh conveyed to your members and um most of the people who are listening to this probably know that some of the major tools are improving your sleep, improving nutrition, exercise, uh social interaction.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um what we can do now with um some of the th the analytics that we're getting into with AI and with wearable sensor technology is being able to more precisely, objectively measure the impact of the interventions that we do to try and help with um cognitive aging.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we're um we're starting to know what works for the individual and what we can do to help uh maximize that and and the impact of what you're already doing.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: So say I'm a 30-year-old who typically aren't really thinking about like cognitive decline, right?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I'm in good shape, I'm I'm exercising regularly, eating a fairly nutrient-dense diet, and trying to be mindful of my sleep.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything else that I should and could be doing to protect against the onset of some of these symptoms?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because correct me if I'm wrong, we now know that we can begin protecting decades in advance.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what would what would your high-level summary be there?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, we we know from some of the pioneering work of um Adam Ghazali's lab, for example, that there are some cognitive exercises you can do that will have um reversed some of the decline that we have in cognitive measurements um that occur in all of us over time.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we can reverse that and help people who are in their 60s start scoring in the same zone as people in their 20s and 30s.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: So people who start in their 60s.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: In their 60s, they can do certain cognitive exercises that are facilitated by um uh feedback environments, virtual environments.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um their scores on some executive functions can be reversed to put them back in the scores of much younger people.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: We know that.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: There used to be there was a lot of hype over the the value of using digital technologies to address um cognitive aging issues, and there was a lot of misinformation and guesses.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: But we now know through some research, there are some cognitive exercises that you can do that are impactful and make a difference.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're on the cusp of taking what we do know and magnifying it and going deeper with some new tools to learn more.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And those cognitive exercises, are they accessible for the public?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, could could anyone use these?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well uh Adam helped uh Adam Gonzalez helped start a company that uh created a product called Endeavor for RX, and that is useful for attention deficit disorder, for example.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's not yet positioned to sp be specific for some of the aspects of cognitive decline over time.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and I should I should be clear, th these are areas where we're you know the fundamental research is being migrated out to application areas, and and you know, the group here is doing some great work in that zone.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it's still an area where we're making progress, but there'll be more progress soon.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: How do you see that progress playing out?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm assuming you know, having done this for 40 years now, you've obviously seen this tremendous evolution in how these tools are um not only capturing data that matters, but become more accessible and available.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: How do you see the next five to ten years playing out?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's interesting.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: I see things changing.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: For the longest time, we've had the healthcare networks, the pharma companies, the medical device companies, the insurance networks being the key players in terms of how healthcare is moved forward and delivered.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: But now we're having the tech titans move into the area.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Apple, Google, Samsung, uh, Amazon.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think what things will play out is we also are having new platforms for health, new ways to measure um our physical activities and our our behavior, new ways to measure our attention, et cetera, and um new ways of influencing people's uh behavior by giving them the information they need with smart glasses technology.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I think in the next five years we'll see is um we will see an improvement in the ways we can correctly provide feedback to people about uh how we can use technology and shifting their behavior to achieve their goals in a very Very hyper-personalized way.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Which previously it's been, how are you feeling today?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe try this, maybe it'll work.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let let's check back in a few months and see.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: And this will be real-time.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now we can do it with real-time feedback and new ways to help people understand what's working for them.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: And will that be affordable, do you think?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: But you think that the cell phones are going to become obsolete?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell I I think so.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think instead of um looking down at a device and going like this, we will be looking through a device and we'll be speaking.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that and we'll have identified AI as our interface to help us do that.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So assuming that platform is going to occur and it's already well on its way, um, I think we will have new ways to close the feedback loop, help people understand what their goals are, map to the choices.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: They'll look at a grocery store shelf and they'll see information of what might be the best thing for them to buy in the moment to improve their health.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: They'll maybe see an image of themselves in the mirror that shows uh where they could improve.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the technology and the analytics we have right now and the ability to put uh a motivational um structure behind it, matched an individual's goals, will make a big difference in terms of healthcare.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be more of a personalized, proactive, wellness-focused application.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: Let's double-click on that a little because you know, uh across this whole sort of corpus of evidence of all these verticals that we know impact length and quality of life, um, there's really robust examples of things that we can all be doing every day that create a tremendous return on our time, but we still have to do them, right?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: And like, and that's kind of hard.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: And like if I'm a you know, a single dad with a business to run, I'd switch on social media and I'm made to feel like I should be doing hyperbaric chambers and IV drips and peptides and every single intervention that someone's trying to sell.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: How do how do people pass through that and understand that this is the thing that I should be doing in this moment?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: It strikes me that that's one of the tremendous benefits of having technology like this that can hyper-personalize recommendations.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: But today, I think we're all made to feel like we're failing.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think the change in the paradigm will be that we're going to give more agency to the individual to make them less passive.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you're a busy dad, like you described, it's gonna sometimes hard to exercise that agency, but we can reduce the friction by making it a lot easier and again close that feedback loop.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: If if I need to learn a skill or do some change my behavior, uh and I'm a busy person um and I don't see the results of it for a month or two, yeah, I'm just not gonna do it.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: But if uh if I can get immediate feedback of why and the impact of it and feel like I'm in control, sure, uh, then I'm much more likely to do it.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: I love this concept of removing friction.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think if we can give people time back and get a and yield a better return on that time, they're much more likely to stick to it, right?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's really compelling.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think also we need to help right now, everybody has so much disconnected information.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we might have some blood tests that our doctor uh measured for us, we might see our sleep from an app that we have on our phone, we might have the number of steps we're taking.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Putting it all together into something that matches what my personal situation is and my personal goals.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Some people might want to optimize uh, you know, like uh if I have chronic pain and I'm talking to a pain specialist, I might want to reduce the pain so I can sleep better, or I might want to be able to go back to work, or I might want to be able to pursue a hobby that I can't because of the pain I have.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Without personalizing and understanding the individual's goals, all this disconnected information is just noise.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: But if we can help come to one system where you in the morning you you get up and you have a short list of the things that are priorities for you and also some data that came in about what you did yesterday and what your plans are, yeah.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: And have that in with one signal, then we reduce the friction.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: Real time health recommendations that are specific to not only your biology and genetics, but your preferences, right?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because they and they change over time.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: And may and maybe the health indications need to be interwoven with your constraints too.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe your busy dad who also needs to make some money to keep moving forward.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a trade-off.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And helping you come up with that balance.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we can design technology to help us do that.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Can we pull on that thread for a minute?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think a lot of people listening might then jump to the solution being an uh AI, an AI model where you input your labs, your wearable data.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a bunch of new platforms which are um, you know, suggesting that they can aggregate all of this information together and create a plan that is hyper-personalized.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: My my critique, having used all of these platforms right now, and I and I think that there are solutions that are being built, is that when I put my lab work and and preferences and health records into a large language model, the answer is always compelling.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: So it always says something that sounds believable.
• 27:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then I challenge the model and say, like, where have you got that information from?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it will say, Oh no, you're right, Chris.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like I made that up, or you know, it was an influencer or the Daily Mail or or a random um study that has no application to me personally.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're some way off still that being personalized to the degree where we can completely rely on the robustness of the recommendation.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you're you're absolutely right.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a couple of things that need to be done.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: One is that things, especially for healthcare, need to be science-based, based on facts and research as opposed to theories and not based on fads.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh two, we need to design for privacy and design for safety and accuracy.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a the leap forward we'd had in AI has aggregated data from a large variety of sources in a not carefully curated manner.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I but I think the healthcare applications that uh are being developed uh, if done right, will be uh highly curated and structured such that we're not going to have misinformation.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's takes time to do that.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the initial systems we've seen, they're being used by the public now, are moving things forward.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I think in the healthcare zone, the ones that are based on structures that don't uh allow hallucinations are the ones that we have to look to.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I would also argue that we don't have enough like very deep end of one data to understand how to be that granular and precise.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why I was excited by spending my time here with your group today, is you're collecting that data and seeing and and understanding um how best to use it and also how to move it forward in a way that motivates people to do what they need to do.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's an exciting time to be alive.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, can I ask you one question that might be a little controversial?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to answer it.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you kind of do.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um where would you say that your peers or or or other um experts or uh subject matter experts are kind of overreaching at the moment?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, uh and it and it doesn't have to be specific to your domain, but you know, I switch on again any kind of media outlet, and I'm led to believe that we're solving aging in the next few months and that we can all be expecting to add decades to our lives.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't see that robustness in the evidence.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I agree with you.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I think there's a tendency towards optimism and hyperbole that um uh there are breakthroughs that are occurring because of new analytics and new sensor technology and new theories, but often something that is based on uh an a small study or optimistic results, there's a long pathway that we need to go through before it becomes uh validated as research and science.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's the filter we have to have is you know, it's it's great that people are excited about things, but there's so much hype that is, I think, misleading in what's going on right now.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: How do we stop that?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good that's a good question.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think um, you know, the the way social media is right now, it's really hard to I mean, it's the big problem in all areas of misinformation.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think in terms of the the health and wellness arena, I I think we need to there's groups that are putting together ways of having uh external validation of claims and to you know come back and say this is this has been validated, this is accurate, this is part of um our you know this area of experts uh uh approved um uh uh beliefs.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: But coming to a consensus from a variety of hardworking individuals who have their own research labs is not easy.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think tell me about it.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I do think that we will be able to provide information to individuals to help them make their decisions based on the veracity of the information.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully, as I I think the next generation of of technology and the battleground that many of the tech companies are gonna have is gonna be in healthcare.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if there's groups that are taking a close look, like like your group is at what is validated and uh best some base practices, that's where we have to look.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: But like if anything, there's always gonna be a lot of noise.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think there will be a silver bullet?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I think there there won't be.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think we um we have some hard, you know, the the issue especially of cognitive aging, it's a critical problem to solve because uh you know, uh our society is gonna be um s aging much staying alive so much longer, but unless we preserve cognitive health, brain health, um many people are gonna be living to their 90s uh and beyond, but without good cognitive function.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if we have the same percentage of people with uh neurodegenerative disease as we have now, 20 years from now, it's gonna bankrupt uh um the world economy.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I I view it as an economic threat more than global warming as this issue.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are we gonna have a silver bullet to to address it?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think we'll have many uh many bullets.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um it won't be any one thing because it's a spectrum of problems.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's uh you know neurodegenerative disease, which is very different than mild cognitive impairment, for example.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: In general, as you know, I'm a huge optimist for you know what's around the corner.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it strikes me that we're not doing a tremendous job of you know living to our 80s, 90s, and you know, even our sort of tenth decade in good health.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so this idea of extending lifespan by decades, whilst I think that it is a good cause to be, you know, putting spending you know, tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars researching these silver bullets, and I would love that to be the case.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: We know there are things we can do now to protect against mild cognitive impairment or physical decline.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say is, you know, if you had to give your 30-year-old self or or 20-year-old self advice about how to protect your cognition against the hallmark signatures of aging, what would be your number one piece of advice?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you can't say exercise or sleep.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um Wow, you took away the the two top ones.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I would say take the time to pay attention to your health.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: At that age, we're building, uh we're building our careers, we're we're building our families, uh, we're having fun with our friends.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh what I would say is um pay attention, look downstream, think about the fact that you want to have a a long health span and um and and take care of your brain.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I would say.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and there's a variety of ways to take care of our brains, but I would say maybe slow down, be less stressed, and also, of course, enjoy life a little bit.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: So then then let's pull on that thread as well, Walter, because I think you know the idea of being less stressed and slowing down is really the exact opposite of how we're sort of spending our time right now.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, if we are Do you know do you think there is a danger that we are um over-analyzing, over-testing, over-optimizing in many ways?
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if we are to spend more time collecting data, more time using VR headsets and technology and AI, are we in danger of then that stress and um certainly the pressure to be optimizing becoming a negative piece?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh absolutely.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and again, I think the big problem is that we have like a whole um spectrum of of things that could be measured that aren't easy to integrate to come up with the signal that's best for you as an individual.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and there's a balance, there's trade-offs.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And uh uh I think we need to give the individuals the agency and reduce the friction to do it to make the right choices for them based on their priorities.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think in healthcare in general, we have not given people those trade-offs.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, here's your problem, here is what I recommend, uh, the pill you take or the thing you do, instead of saying, okay, I want to align um all the things you could do um with the trade-offs that they will take, um, both cost and time, with what your goals are, and give you the information and the feedback so you can make decisions.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I need to make it very simple.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's the challenge, but that's a design challenge.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh a matter of uh making sure that we design the next generation of applications that are related to health and longevity to optimize for the user's preferences and to make it simple and easy to use and accurate.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and we can do that.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a matter of making that the design priority we have as we come up with the next generation of is that the design priority?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, is that one thing I think I might have mentioned on a on a previous episode, I could easily be wrong here, but my prediction is that you know, analog becomes the new trend or like some elements of like di detaching from technology will become a new luxury.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I personally looked at my screen time on my um Apple uh phone and it was frightening.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like the majority of my day is spent on a screen, and I think if we continue in this trend, then analog's gonna feel like a luxury.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the good news is we're in agreement.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh what I'm trying to say is that I think if we design things the right way, we will make it a lot uh a lot less technology in front of us, but a lot of technology in the background that is matched to our goals and our individual signals and is helping us achieve what we want to do to optimize our health span and other things we want to optimize for with the trade-offs that we want to make.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't have to have a technology in front of us.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: It should be in the background.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I assume if we can if that technology becomes more efficacious, if it if it is more granular and precise with the recommendations, you would need to spend less time using it or certainly less time interacting with it.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I guess uh this might be the bet uh the wrong analogy, but let me explore it.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, with autonomous vehicles, autonomous cars.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we once if we trust the technology and it's working safely and correctly, it can free us up so that if we if we have a you know, if we're living in a rural area and we have a mobility employment that otherwise we wouldn't be able to get out and be social can let us do things.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't have to design or or master that technology.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: We just have to use it.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if if the very creative people that are out there do a good job of taking all the sensor technology, all the analytical technology, all the science findings, and come up with the right sort of products that are as easy as jumping into uh an automobile uh and not having to not having to do anything, then we can optimize for improved uh improved um health and longevity in a way that is um active because you're making choices, but passive in that you don't have to worry about a lot of stuff.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're actually kind of already seeing some of that sort of stacking in in uh across these different verticals, right?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: And with wearables able to capture more um breadth of data across different facets of health, you can only assume that that's going to continue stacking to the point where it's removing even more friction.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what I haven't seen is enough attention paid to understanding the goals of the individual.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: And and we again we touched on this very briefly earlier this morning that I think our ambitions and goals and motivators for doing X changed throughout the year, right?
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think optimizing our health can be cyclical at times.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'll go through periods where I'm extremely busy or traveling a lot or feeling a bit more gluttonous, and then it kind of goes to the wayside a little.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then there are periods where I'm like, right, I've got to be on a beach in three months, and and I'm then I'm much more motivated.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: Technology has not caught it it is not doesn't mirror that.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: Do you agree?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh absolutely.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's as a matter of fact, it's the opposite of that.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I would also say that um it's hard for for many individuals, um, my engineering friends are better at this than I am, uh, to really think in terms of um if I do this, then this will happen, then this will happen, and so on, or sort of just often in the moment, which is a good thing to do.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, in a way, I think we need to design uh anything that helps us achieve our goals in such a way that it can be on autopilot, but also such that we can open the hood and tweak it and dynamically change it when we feel the need to.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that again is a design criteria.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think I think the design schools are going to be all so important as we move forward with this next generation because we really need to do a better job of building that part in.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: You just mentioned something a moment ago about you know being in the moment.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this I really struggle with, and I've been kind of sitting with this thought process recently about you know, we're all so concerned about living a longer, healthier life.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: Does that detract from enjoying life in the moment?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, we know that there are a bunch of different metrics that we don't do a great job of testing for in the lab, and I've spoken about these before, like joy and hope, and faith and human connection.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: How do you see technology helping us to stay in the moment and improve some of those metrics?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if it can reduce some of the distractors in our environment, uh that'll help us stay in the moment.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think also helping us understand ourselves and what you know helps us get into that wonderful flow state.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think uh also, again, new tools for our colleagues who are research scientists.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's been hard to measure joy.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's been hard to measure empathy, it's been hard to measure emotional states in general.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: But we now have some new tools using um looking at facial expressions, body language, uh, voice tone, eye gaze to help us do the basic research we need to come up with the ways to to measure those things.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can't measure them, then we can't design systems that help an individual optimize for them.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we also need to have ways to provide feedback to the individual.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the reasons I'm so excited about the power of immersive experiences is we create uh we can show people an experience that helps them get to where they want to be in terms of their mood state, their flow state.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell When you say like we're we have technology to measure and track our eyes and our uh facial expressions, how how does that translate into something that is valuable for metrics of health?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, um well, let's see if we're trying to help someone who might be struggling with uh at an attention problem.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um the uh just the eye gaze data we can capture from their use of a cell phone or a video uh camera on a on a on a uh web call.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um that data can help us give them feedback about their ability and sometimes reading comprehension.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think to me, being able to measure something is the first step to help an individual optimize for their goals.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we now are at the cusp of having those measurements collected passively, instead of actively, where you have to do something.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh once we can help an individual map what their goal might be to uh intervention, then then we have a then we need to come up with something that helps them uh adhere to that.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: So again, it's it's a matter of of understanding what to measure for the individual, have them have some agency over it, and then have a feedback loop so they stick with it.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love this concept of giving them more agency because I think that to me implies that you're giving control to the person to then you know create their own desk.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it's got to be dust done in such a way that like I don't like opening up my cell phone and going and tweaking all the little options in it.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to have something that does that with in a very frictionless way.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it feels more automated.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of annoying when you download a new tool or app and then you're asked a hundred questions about preferences and you know what you're trying to achieve.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of give up a lot of the time.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe if we can find a way that that is much more automated, we'd probably see more adherence, right?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think we should assume that the the tech companies that are building these identified systems are going to want those systems to know us very well and understand our goals and our motivations.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: That'll improve the user interface.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think our role can be to help take that capability, which is inevitable, and leverage it for healthcare.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I don't think we need to build that part.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's going to be part of uh the next generation of uh the interfaces that we have with technology and with each other and and with the built environment.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what we can do in the in the in the healthcare arena is find ways to take that capability of these identified systems that will be studying us, understanding us to be better tools for us, and we adapt that to what we know from research improves the health span.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, to let me ask you a question.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: You've been doing this for 40 years.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say is the one perspective or hypothesis that you had that you've been completely wrong about?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: How long it would take.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's everything seems like it's just I I'm an optimist like you, Chris.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've always thought things would happen um much faster than they actually have, but they have they have eventually happened.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um in terms of mistakes I've made, um of things that I should have seen coming that were different.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a very good question.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I would say that where we got wrong was we assumed that the power of of the technology we were developing would be um deployed for healthcare.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: And instead it's really taken this roundabout route uh through gaming and entertainment.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's good because it's reduced the cost of these systems.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I was surprised on the lack of update uh of very powerful systems that can help with stroke rehabilitation, for example.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's because there's a lot of inertia in the health environment, uh the the way we have reimbursement codes, et cetera.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I would I didn't see that coming, that there'd be uh and I now I understand that if we're building a new system for to be used in a busy clinic, it can't just make health better for the patients.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: It has to reduce the time burden on the clinician and reduce the cost, or else it's not going to fly.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't I didn't grasp that until uh much later.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: If you had uh unlimited resources, is there some question that you would like to answer or problem that you would like to solve that is restricted by you know time and money?
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell I think the emergency that we I mean there's so many things to worry about and address, but the one I'm most worried about uh is the issue of uh an aging population and cognitive aging issues.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very worried that uh, you know, as the as the boomers get up into their 80s and 90s, um, if we don't change the the the ratios of how many of us are going to have severe problems soon, it's just gonna be a devastating cascade on our society.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: We we can't we don't have enough family sizes have gotten smaller, if we don't have enough informal caretakers to support three out of every seven of us having uh Alzheimer's or a neurodegenerative disease.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's an emergency.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: And what I would do if I had the resources is put more effort into addressing that problem.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's probably the thing that frightens us the most about getting older, right?
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: That you know, we lose this independence or, you know, um our sense of identity.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: And would you say, you know, you know, I think we've we've we're pretty optimistic and bullish on you know the 30, 40, 20-year-olds having certainly time on their side, but also, you know, they have the ability to start building that suit of armor now around their brain, so to speak.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: For those people listening that are you know in their 60s, 70s and above, what what is the you know, first line of defense, or or can we even improve some of these mechanisms of of the brain at that stage?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: And what what would be your sort of urgent first step?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I um as we talked about uh a little bit earlier in our conversation, I think there are some tools that we know now that we should be doing to um preserve our brain health as as we age.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think we need to uh fund and put more effort into research to address the the more catastrophic problems like Parkinson's and uh Louis body disease and and uh Alzheimer's.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and some of those interventions will occur in the zone of new new uh neuromodulation technology, new pharmaceuticals, etc.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think for mild cognitive impairment, that's one thing.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: But for the more neurodegenerative diseases, I think we're gonna have to have some breakthroughs.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just gonna be a matter of putting the time and effort in.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not sure there's that much an individual can do for those problems other than donate for a worthy research cause.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess all of the things that we already recommend, right?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely as a foundation.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: Are people like trying to solve for that above and beyond uh pharmacology?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's there's a lot of work going on uh using non-pharmacological um ways of addressing uh brain health.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, again, there's the wellness part of it, which I think is foundational to improving things.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: But to to address uh, you know, people who might be, you know, they're they're in their 70s now and are you know seeing some sh signs of myocolic impairment, uh, I think there will be interventions we can do.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: They won't just be pharmaceutical, they'll come from neuromodulation, they'll come from um nutrition.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they'll be things can you explain what neuromodulation means for for me as well as the listeners.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: All right, well, stimulating the brain with um with um electrical signals, with ultrasound, with lights.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's some very interesting work going on with uh gamma frequency stimulation that can cause the brain to heal.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's been a lot of research coming up with companies that are going into uh uh phase two trials for um ways of promoting brain health and brain healing using um light, sound, ultrasound, uh um direct current stimulation.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you've seen those devices that uh put magnetic stimulation to uh to increase blood flow in certain parts of the brain.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: These are on the rise, and I think some of them will show great promise for addressing some serious problems.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's good news.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: Walter, tell me what you do regularly to optimize for your brain, not just your brain health, your overall health.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: What's your go-to routine?
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Chris, uh you've caught me.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: No secrets, please.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: You've caught me here.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm often I'm on a podcast like this, and people ask me, what can what can we do or what are you doing to improve your brain health?
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I start clicking through all the things I should be doing, and I'm not.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh uh I know I should be optimizing sleep, reducing stress, uh um, eating better, exercising more.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um I haven't had that feedback loop closed, showing me the best way to do it and motivating me to do it.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe this conversation will serve to motivate me more.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: My time here at uh at this place has also raised my awareness.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm I'm not the I'm not the person who is uh um I'm awakening to the pathways to go.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: But uh no, you've you've you've identified someone who is not working on his brain health as much as he should.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: But isn't that interesting that we are, you know, we have myself included, right?
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: We have access to some of the most incredible research and researchers and tools and technologies, and it's very clear this is beneficial and we should be doing it.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's tough to expect anyone to be able to adhere to these things if the people who are actually researching them aren't, right?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so that in itself, I think, really identifies that these things are long-term sustainable lifestyle changes that are not easy.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think if we can help people to I don't even think, you know, once you have filtered through the noise, and you know, we've discussed that there's a lot of that, when you get the like really robust evidence for me, these are the things that I should be doing.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: I still then have to be motivated to do them.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that is, as you've just admitted, hard for even the people with very clear evidence.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think we all need to pause, think about what we need to do for our future goals, and get the feedback of what the right pathway is for us.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um I think that's really hasn't been available until recently.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things I think you're doing right here is that you're looking at an individual and you're giving them feedback and checking in with them and saying, hey, it's working, or maybe try a little bit of this.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I haven't had that.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think if I had that, I would be doing a better job of doing the right thing.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna hold you accountable to that.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_02: What what would you say excites you the most about um aging research, the future of aging research, this sort of catch all term of longevity, which we think I think we both agree is overused.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but across all of these different domains and disciplines, you can't answer anything to do with your specific domain.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, what's exciting me to you?
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what's the most exciting thing that you've seen amongst your peers that the the listeners can be excited about is coming soon?
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: I am really excited about um, and uh it it's an it's technology, so and I know we're overburdened by technology now, but I really think the uh the smart glasses technology that are on the horizon, those that will be capturing EEG, eye gaze data, uh voice tone, all these signals uh will help us know and they'll be part of the interface we have with the world and with our own self and understanding ourselves.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think that level of technology will be very powerful in terms of uh helping us uh um optimize for what our goals are and whatever those goals may be that we're we're pushing for.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's gonna be a and the analytics that AI is bringing, I think we're on the cusp of things that are gonna move forward in a real robust way.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the fact that the tech companies that are coming in are doing it in a way that uh makes sense.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like the many people might buy an Apple Watch because it helps them interface with their iPhone, but the fact that it can detect uh AFib is just incredible.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we're gonna see healthcare enabled uh by technology in a way that doesn't require a lot of extra effort on our part.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just part of the fabric of what we're doing.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: And also our culture is changing too.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're starting to pay more attention to our health.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I think that becomes a feed-forward system uh as with our friends, as they pay more attention, we can help each other.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the most exciting thing about all of that is that it's just becoming a lot more affordable, right?
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: But but Chris, let me ask you the same question.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: No questions to me.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, go on.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, you know, what what are you most excited about?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and and also what are what are you doing personally?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um what am I most excited about?
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm most excited about things becoming democratized.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, we have spent the past three years truly immersed in you know the most incredible research with the most incredible like scientific purists, not the people that are shouting very loudly on social media, people that are actually in the labs doing the thing.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this this is kind of counterintuitive, but the most exciting thing for me is that you know, most of the things that we know to work are relatively unsexy and affordable and accessible.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: And there are what, maybe 150 promising-looking Jero protectors that are showing promise in some of these animal models, but we're still some way off that sort of bench-to-bedside translation piece.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think, you know, if everyone listening would could understand that maybe some of these things are around the corner, they're not accessible yet, but we may be able to prove them safe and effective in the not too distant future, we'd all be urgently trying to build a suit of armor to cross the bridge to get there.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the great and most exciting piece is that we all have the ability to do that.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you're in a position that you actually get to see it.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're you're making it happen, and that's that's uh a wonderful story.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: No, one one one thing I would say is that um there there is tremendous um value to the pioneers of these tools and technologies who you know who are spending ungodly amounts of money to move this technology forward, because what I think we would all benefit from is specificity and like granularity and precision with some of these unsexy interventions, you know, just doing exercise or just you know, there's still discourse in how to best do this.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think, you know, and I use this example in the past, if we if we think about the human genome project that took hundreds of millions of dollars and decades to do, now we can do it in four hours and it takes you know a few hundred bucks.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: The same applies to all of these emerging tools and technologies, including everything that you know you're studying.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so you do need we do need visionaries to fund some of these things and and be the um early adopters to make it more accessible.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you're playing a really important role.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: Often these academic groups, there's a there's a wall between them and getting things out.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it's it's hard.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's hard to find the pathway to do that.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what you're doing is sort of acting as the active transport mechanism to move out of the cell these incredible findings and moving them out to the outside world in a way that is not through a big pharma company or a big a big medical device company.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're you're making it happen by working with individuals and getting it going.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's thank you.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I think there are so many, you know, we have 70 incredible um academics working as part of this sort of shared um intelligence layer, I guess.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: And every one of them is doing incredible things within a lab, but by very definition of being an academic, they are you know, their main ambition is to be in the lab answering the questions that we don't have the answers for.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, we we don't it if if all of our best scientists and academics were trying to build media platforms, there'd be no new science, right?
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think you know, giving up creating a platform to share.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you're also fostering some hybrid vigor and hospitalization between these different groups.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: Often there's a there's a problem in research, which is you're often so focused on what you're doing, you don't have the opportunity to meet the fellow travelers that you should.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: And do you do you wish on that on that note that there was more opportunity to collaborate with other people in your field across institutions?
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because it strikes me that um, you know, there is an appropriate level of scientific discourse that we need.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you don't want everyone to agree with you.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: Take for example, you know, if you've been you've been studying in you've been in this field for 40 years, is there ever like a risk of you, you know, really wanting to prove a hypothesis, finding evidence for things that you want to be true?
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that happens in science?
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like Oh, absolutely.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think we're, you know, bias is something we have to be very vigilant about, both in terms of the data we're collecting, but also the way we interpret it.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, we we have to always, you know, as as researchers but and as research teams and as individuals, we we have to watch out for that.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh I'm very optimistic about uh how things are.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, when I work with other groups, I I just try and say, look, let's let's validate our assumptions by talking to someone outside of our group, because it's so easy to just get caught up in your own view of things and not not see the problems in what you're doing and not see the biases you have.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's one thing I I love about your field of research is you're able to aggregate lots of different verticals, right?
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, like the development of some of these tools and and the technology that goes with it, I'm so optimistic that that's gonna help bring some of these verticals together in a way that we can understand how they impact each other.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how does improving my physical health improve my cognition?
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_02: These tools will be able to track for that, right?
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think we're also um getting better at looking at the lived experience of individuals who are um struggling with some of these uh issues and understanding how to again, I think uh the thing that we need to be better as product developers and as scientists and uh groups that are coming up with new uh mechanisms to support uh proving health span is that design layer.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's where I think we we need to really focus because it's reducing friction, proving engagement and adherence.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the biggest challenges.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're great at f well, we're getting really good at finding things that work.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: But designing for reducing friction, uh promoting adherence, showing people the reasons they should stick with it, that we need to really be better at.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: Walter, how do we prevent um some of these developments in technology drifting into sort of biohacking?
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_02: Where is technology getting ahead of the science?
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's a it's a very good question.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um I what I'm excited about is uh there's been a new thrust for doing more citizen science research, where we can take the technology that people have that um is measuring EEG or steps, et cetera, and do some population level studies uh in a passive way, leveraging people who are willing to share their data for research.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's fantastic.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of the concern that you've expressed uh with your question, um I think it's a it's a matter of being really at the forefront, we need to really be careful at protecting people's data and have these systems be designed so that this very precious information about our health and our cognitive status doesn't escape.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: And with you know, with the AI analytics that are out there, it's really easy just to take pop uh data that's out there in the in the wild and put it together and come up with a profile for an individual.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure the biohackers will be doing this.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think we just need to do our best to help them do it in a safe way by providing tools that have the right guardrails on them.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and in many ways, the biohackers are, I don't know, um, creating a lot of disinformation too.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think uh a good defense there might be an offense.
• 1:04:03
  unknown: Right.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_00: Get the right information out in a very visible way and make it publicly available.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell But how do how do consumers, did the general public, discern between good information and misinformation?
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that is something where we need to have respected authorities uh put their brand of uh review and and uh sort of a good housekeeping seal of approval.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we also need to ask the groups that are out there to I remember when I was growing up, the the there was a comic book code.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: The comic books established these principles of of they weren't going to have certain things happen in their in their media.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um and it allowed it to be adopted.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: People felt more par comfortable buying comic books for their kids because there was this code of uh of conduct within the the comic book realm, which since has gone by the wayside.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the technology developers themselves need to uh our our government's not going to be able to move fast enough to come up with the right sort of guardrails for many of these things.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I think as an industry, um, those who are working in this field need to be proactive to say these are best practices, this is the code of conduct that we want to have as we roll out new technology and promote that and make sure make it very transparent and clear.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think saying on occasion, we don't know.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like when when our you know, what is the best that way of doing this, or what technology can we use to improve this uh you know, mechanism of the brain, we just don't know about all of this, right?
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in our field we don't hear that very often.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if we were to be completely honest, some of these signatures of aging we still don't truly understand.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um there's probably more we don't know than we do know, but we do know enough to start making recommendations and move forward.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: But uh there's a lot more work to be done.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_02: One thing I love about some of these tools, and we use them daily.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: Is, you know, even without having tons and tons of very robust clinical data, the risk is very low, right?
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like so I know if I use a VR headset that we have some you know small sample size data and and uh you know only a few studies, it's still kind of worth trying, right?
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: In in many respects.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_02: Would you agree with that?
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the uh what you're doing here and what people every place could do does not have to involve any risk at all.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a matter of measuring, personalizing, giving feedback, promoting uh adherence, uh make reducing the friction to use something, all those things are improving the utility of some very safe ways of intervening.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's um, you know, there are a lot of things out there that are emerging that aren't necessarily safe.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as you pointed out by the question about biohackers, there's a lot of people are going to be doing some risky things that uh aren't based by by good science.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: And again, my my perspective is a good way to address that is beyond the offense.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: Just get the right information out and establish best practices and uh show people what to fill that void.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's trying very hard to do the right thing.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: We need to help give them the right tools to do that.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think we all want to feel like we're right on the cutting edge, right?
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like we don't want to wait until, you know, we don't want to feel like we're missing out.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_02: We have this FOMO, right?
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_02: But what what would you say that is one of the things that you see the most um in the press, in the media, that frustrates you the most, that you think has the like least credence and and that doesn't deserve to be in the limelight?
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot of um groups out there that claim they can um uh cure uh Alzheimer's or uh treat attention deficit disorder with or address um you know depression with things that really aren't based on good science or maybe based on some theories but that really haven't been brought forward.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think there's a lot of things that are just exaggerated or are bogus that uh catch a lot of attention because we're all looking for for answers in this sound.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and often there's there's groups that prey upon people's fears.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: They're you know, they want to help their their son who might have a problem, or they might want to address their own problem with pain or depression or anxiety or um uh loss, grief.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of noise out there of groups that are saying they've come up with the solution, but they really haven't.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that wastes time and money and leads people down the wrong pathway.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_00: And perhaps away from a problem.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also a structural problem we have in our in our culture right now where there's not enough um pathways to get what you need.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you make that difficult phone call asking for help with your addiction or with your uh thoughts of suicide, sometimes you're put on a very long waiting list uh before you can actually get help.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm not surprised.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's people who are uh eager to find solutions or desperate to find solutions in some cases, and some people who are sometimes with the best intentions, sometimes with bad intentions, they just want to make money, trying to fill that void.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I think what we need to do is take the approach that you've done with the group here, which is get the reality of the science, move it forward, and get it out there and to help fill that void.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to um go over ground that we've already covered, but I think this is an important question to finish on.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_02: If you were in a room with all of your family members, what would be your you know, number one piece of advice to them to protect their brain for the next 10, 20, 30 years?
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it can be different answer for different age groups, um, but what would be your sort of very high-level takeaway for them knowing what you know?
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when you asked a question previously, you restricted not to say sleep, not to say exercise, not to say nutrition.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can say anything.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now I can say I would say sleep, exercise, nutrition, but probably the meta-thought is pay attention.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think we're it's very easy in our lives to just sort of on to the next, the next opportunity, the next issue, the next problem, and deal with it.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the pathways to be healthier and to um be better as individuals are in front of us, but we're often just so busy moving forward.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I would I would advise friends and family uh to just pause, take a moment to take a look and to see what you can do to make things better for yourself.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Different path for everyone.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Walter, you have an opportunity to ask me a question now because I know you wanted to.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_02: But just one.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that uh, you know, Chris, you you've had the opportunity to talk to some of the leading uh research groups in the world who are working on some very hard problems, and you are with your your uh team helping to consolidate and understand and move forward their findings.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um where do you think the biggest gap is right now that we need to address that um is missing?
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_02: Without a doubt, um discerning signal from noise, filtering misinformation, um, getting getting the right information into normal people's hands in a way that has no agenda.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um I think we we touched on this a moment ago.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_02: You have to start evidence first, not product first.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think way too many startups, individuals, physicians, biohackers, celebrities are starting product first.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so everyone, I think, um not gonna make too many enemies here, but I think everyone thinks they have this halo tipping solution, whether that is a microbiome company or proteomics or metabolomics or a piece of exercise equipment or nutrition plan.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that, in my opinion, is not how biology works.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like biology is way too nuanced and layered for there to be one single solution.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think we have to flip that model on its head.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't think there is such a thing as a longevity expert.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think there is such a thing as one individual media presence that can give advice across all of these sort of broad verticals that impact length and quality of life.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think the only way of getting the right evidence into the hands of everyone is you go many to one instead of one to many.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think there is something very common in the way humans evolve to follow the leader, to have a guru, to have someone that we have a tendency to just follow sometimes blindly.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we need to resist that.
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remember a New York, uh, a New Yorker cartoon back in the days when there were New Yorker cartoons in print media that had a gentleman with his young son looking at a pedestal where there was seven or eight people, some with briefcases, some wearing their lab coats, some uh with uh stethoscopes, some with uh instruments.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And he was saying, son, there are no great individuals, just great groups.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what we need to emphasize is that you know, it's these are difficult problems.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_00: We need to take a multi-dimensional approach to it and not necessarily follow the leader, but follow the evidence.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't agree more.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_02: Walter, it has truly been a privilege.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, as always.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_02: My pleasure.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm looking forward to having you back on here in 12 months' time to to talk about some of these developments.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Chris.