Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / Issue 396: Andor: Season One - One Way Out

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Issue 396: Andor: Season One - One Way Out · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

0:02
Speaker 1: Welcome to the ned Paltea.
0:06
Speaker 2: Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
0:10
Speaker 2: the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch. And you
0:14
Speaker 2: are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
0:25
Speaker 1: Well, hello, and welcome to Aggressive Negotiations, the Star Wars
0:29
Speaker 1: podcast that you just don't know how you could live without.
0:32
Speaker 1: And I am just one of your hosts here, Matthew Rushing,
0:35
Speaker 1: and we are coming at you from I believe level
0:38
Speaker 1: thirteen thirteen here on Corussants. It is extremely filthy. They
0:43
Speaker 1: do not have the cleaning droids down here and with
0:46
Speaker 1: me as he is always the one and only Juedi
0:50
Speaker 1: Master John Mills, and I'm sorry you're wearing your the
0:55
Speaker 1: Real Twin Peaks T shirt?
0:59
Speaker 3: Is that?
1:00
Speaker 1: Like, I don't know what is that?
1:01
Speaker 4: John, Well, let's pull back the curtain. Let's shatter the
1:06
Speaker 4: illusion of these personas that we've created the real Twin Peaks.
1:11
Speaker 4: Matt is a festival that I went to celebrating Twin Peaks,
1:16
Speaker 4: the TV show, the classic TV show that redefined television,
1:20
Speaker 4: the Oldest Potawan and I flew out a few months
1:22
Speaker 4: ago to experience Oh wait now, as at this recording,
1:26
Speaker 4: it was a little more than a month Ago feels
1:27
Speaker 4: like a lifetime ago. We went to the real town
1:31
Speaker 4: North Bend, Washington where they filmed the show, and it's delightful.
1:36
Speaker 4: I highly recommend it everybody. Of course, I highly recommend
1:40
Speaker 4: the show. And if you really want to infuriate people,
1:43
Speaker 4: watch the third season and then tell them you don't
1:45
Speaker 4: hate it. Boy, you think it was you think it
1:48
Speaker 4: was contentious to say you like the prequels. Oh boy,
1:51
Speaker 4: just say you like season three of Twin Peaks. It'll
1:54
Speaker 4: just absolutely infuriate people left and right.
1:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. It's kind of like, you know,
1:59
Speaker 1: being a being a Star Trek fan and being like, yeah,
2:02
Speaker 1: I think actually Enterprise might be one of the best series.
2:05
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
2:07
Speaker 1: Well, now before we before we just get completely lost
2:11
Speaker 1: in that other universe and show up with Ahsoka. You know,
2:15
Speaker 1: make sure you find us wherever you get your podcasts
2:17
Speaker 1: and give us a star rating review on places like
2:20
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or even Spotify. Help people find the show,
2:23
Speaker 1: and of course we would love it if you would
2:25
Speaker 1: share the show with people on you know, something like
2:29
Speaker 1: an Instagram or next Twitter over on next tour. You
2:33
Speaker 1: can find the show at the Jedi Masters. In fact,
2:36
Speaker 1: interact with us there. You know, John and I get
2:38
Speaker 1: a little lonely, and we'd love to hear from you
2:41
Speaker 1: about what you're thinking and what you're liking here in
2:43
Speaker 1: Star Wars, what you're excited for. Maybe you're going to
2:47
Speaker 1: Star Wars Celebration Japan. We would love to hear about that.
2:51
Speaker 4: So we would also love for you to maybe bring
2:55
Speaker 4: a stickerback or something like that.
2:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, you good old Jedi master friends over here. That's
2:59
Speaker 3: pretty cool.
3:00
Speaker 1: And of course you could find us on the entire network.
3:02
Speaker 1: Was on Facebook at Facebook dot com, slash the nerd Party.
3:04
Speaker 1: We're online at the nerd Party dot com, and so
3:08
Speaker 1: check all of that out. You know, YadA, YadA, YadA.
3:10
Speaker 1: We say it every time. But okay, so John, this
3:16
Speaker 1: is the episode I think that when people think Star
3:21
Speaker 1: Wars and or this is probably the episode that comes
3:27
Speaker 1: to mind. And it's the phrase that galvanized just a
3:35
Speaker 1: generation of people, right, which was one way out. And
3:41
Speaker 1: so I think it's only fair that we actually start
3:45
Speaker 1: this episode with the conversation is that they've finally had it,
3:51
Speaker 1: They've had enough, you know, to quote what is it?
3:57
Speaker 1: The film is it?
4:00
Speaker 3: Oh?
4:00
Speaker 1: I don't I can't remember. It's like it'll come to
4:03
Speaker 1: me later and I'll hate myself, but you know, I'm
4:05
Speaker 1: as mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore.
4:07
Speaker 3: Oh, network, you're thinking that, I was like, I couldn't.
4:10
Speaker 1: Think of the word network. I don't know why. And so,
4:13
Speaker 1: but that's that's what happens. And I'll just put it
4:16
Speaker 1: in this way. The moment that really galvanizes the series
4:20
Speaker 1: for me, uh is when kein Olloy looks at and
4:28
Speaker 1: Or and basically just begins repeating all of the things
4:32
Speaker 1: that and Or has been saying to him for the
4:34
Speaker 1: past few weeks and then finds his own voice as
4:43
Speaker 1: he's extructing all of these uh, you know, workers on
4:48
Speaker 1: what to do. And it's just this incredibly powerful moment
4:54
Speaker 1: because it's in that moment I think in a lot
4:57
Speaker 1: of ways, a piece of whom Is as the leader
5:03
Speaker 1: locks into place because it's that galvanizing moment where he
5:09
Speaker 1: realizes that the words that he has said has had
5:12
Speaker 1: an impact on a person to the point to which
5:14
Speaker 1: not only are they repeating them, but then they're they're
5:18
Speaker 1: owning them, and then they're utilizing their own words to
5:22
Speaker 1: add to that to continue that movement. And I found
5:26
Speaker 1: that to be just you know, it's it's one of
5:30
Speaker 1: the things I think that the writing, it's just so
5:34
Speaker 1: well done in that moment, because everything has been building
5:36
Speaker 1: to this really well.
5:39
Speaker 4: I think that sure. I mean, you can absolutely call
5:42
Speaker 4: out the writing. It is strong writing for this episode.
5:48
Speaker 3: I agree with you.
5:49
Speaker 4: This is a high water mark episode for people. People
5:51
Speaker 4: remember this one. People know this one well.
5:53
Speaker 1: Not just because they literally jump into some high water,
5:56
Speaker 1: but you.
5:56
Speaker 3: Know, right, yeah, exactly.
5:58
Speaker 4: But the uh, the fact of the matter is that
6:02
Speaker 4: the direction, and I think it's Toby Haynes directs this one,
6:06
Speaker 4: and the direction is what makes that scene really work
6:09
Speaker 4: super well. You I mean, the talent behind the camera
6:15
Speaker 4: with this series is what makes it truck along as
6:17
Speaker 4: well as it does. This is additionally, I mean, I
6:23
Speaker 4: want to build on what you're saying here, because like,
6:25
Speaker 4: I have a lot more fun with and or talking
6:27
Speaker 4: about these sorts of things. But I think that one
6:31
Speaker 4: of the more interesting things is that when they get
6:36
Speaker 4: into the room.
6:38
Speaker 3: It's like the reveal in the Wizard of Oz.
6:41
Speaker 4: It's just these three pasty dudes sitting at control consoles
6:47
Speaker 4: who are living with them but abstracted from them, and
6:52
Speaker 4: they're just saying Okay, it's time to say on program,
6:55
Speaker 4: stand back, we'll do these things. Just say that stuff,
6:58
Speaker 4: and all of those sorts of things. So even though
7:02
Speaker 4: these people all live together, they're abstract to each other
7:08
Speaker 4: until that exact moment, And in that exact moment, suddenly
7:13
Speaker 4: the horror of the entire situation becomes real. And I
7:16
Speaker 4: think that's really the thing to sort of look at
7:19
Speaker 4: as well, is that how easy it is, hiding behind
7:23
Speaker 4: a screen to abstract somebody, to make them the person
7:29
Speaker 4: that needs to be controlled, or the person that's the enemy,
7:32
Speaker 4: or to even transmit a message designed to break their spirit.
7:38
Speaker 4: Because all they hear when that guy talks into the
7:41
Speaker 4: microphone is all in program, you know, like it sounds
7:46
Speaker 4: like this big, ominous voice, and it's just it's some
7:49
Speaker 4: dude that looks like he'd lose a slap fight with
7:51
Speaker 4: one of my kids.
7:52
Speaker 3: You know, it's you sort of see it.
7:56
Speaker 4: You're like, wait, this is what I've been afraid of
7:58
Speaker 4: this whole time, you know, like it It really I
8:00
Speaker 4: think speaks to that idea that the machine is powered
8:05
Speaker 4: not only by terrible people, but people who are once again,
8:09
Speaker 4: just doing their job. We've seen the shore trooper that
8:12
Speaker 4: arrests and Or, and he's obviously some dude on a
8:16
Speaker 4: power trip who's behind a mask, and so he's abstracted
8:21
Speaker 4: the world and abstracted himself. He could do whatever he
8:23
Speaker 4: wants to because he's behind the mask. And these guys
8:27
Speaker 4: are behind a screen, and so they don't think about
8:30
Speaker 4: the consequences of their action. And so I think there's
8:33
Speaker 4: this running theme of abstraction and how it allows us
8:38
Speaker 4: to dehumanize those around us because they're not people when
8:43
Speaker 4: we don't encounter them.
8:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's an excellent point, and
8:47
Speaker 1: a big part of that I think also plays into
8:50
Speaker 1: you know, seeing those guys in those scenes as they're
8:55
Speaker 1: being surprised at what's happening it, you know, you immediately
9:01
Speaker 1: are called back to when and Or was like they're
9:05
Speaker 1: scared and power. People in true power aren't scared and
9:11
Speaker 1: and And I think that's what's kind of so fascinating
9:15
Speaker 1: about that, is that what we're dealing with here is
9:19
Speaker 1: this like microcosm of something that's going to continue to spread,
9:23
Speaker 1: right and and and that the fear then is like
9:26
Speaker 1: something you even see in Star Wars, where you know,
9:31
Speaker 1: the guy comes up to tark and he's like, we
9:33
Speaker 1: we've analyzed their tech pattern and there is actually a chance, right,
9:36
Speaker 1: And he's like, do you want to get on your
9:38
Speaker 1: shuttle basically and get out of here? And Tarkan's like,
9:40
Speaker 1: at a moment of triumph, But there's a fear there,
9:44
Speaker 1: there is, and that's that same fear that we kind
9:47
Speaker 1: of see in these guys as they all realize, oh,
9:50
Speaker 1: we are as out of luck here. We are up
9:53
Speaker 1: a creek without a paddle, and there's no way because,
9:56
Speaker 1: as and Or has been telling Keino, they don't have
10:00
Speaker 1: the men and they know it, and so the only
10:04
Speaker 1: control they have over us is fear. But their fear
10:08
Speaker 1: is and it's that you know, meme, you see of
10:11
Speaker 1: the few task masters and the people rise up and
10:14
Speaker 1: they've got nothing, And that's exactly what, you know, we
10:18
Speaker 1: get in this episode. And I love you calling that
10:22
Speaker 1: out because.
10:24
Speaker 3: There is a.
10:25
Speaker 1: Real human element to this that does kind of put
10:29
Speaker 1: a face to some of these people in the Empire,
10:33
Speaker 1: and that does make the morality of all of this
10:40
Speaker 1: just feel more weighty than when and it's one of
10:44
Speaker 1: the reasons obviously George even talked about it. He puts,
10:47
Speaker 1: you know, stormtroopers with the helmet on. They're all kind
10:49
Speaker 1: of the same size, so you can't see their faces.
10:53
Speaker 1: They become this faceless enemy and there's a reason for that,
10:58
Speaker 1: you know. And yet you know, you're also reminded in
11:07
Speaker 1: some sense that the game that the Empire is playing
11:14
Speaker 1: at this point of keeping these guys in when they
11:16
Speaker 1: talk about, oh, they're making up our sentences, you know,
11:19
Speaker 1: they're that we're never getting out of here. I mean,
11:21
Speaker 1: they're just literally in a concentration camp where they're being
11:24
Speaker 1: well fed, but they're being well fed because they're doing
11:28
Speaker 1: a job and they don't care if you die, They'll
11:30
Speaker 1: just bring in more guys to replace you. And you know, right,
11:33
Speaker 1: and that is just I mean, they're complex, yes.
11:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's that's you know, I know, we we
11:43
Speaker 4: talked about that last time, but that it really is
11:45
Speaker 4: one of those things where you have to wonder the
11:49
Speaker 4: evil that is being perpetrated here. We have the abstraction,
11:53
Speaker 4: we have the evil, We have these things, and it's
11:57
Speaker 4: one of those things where I think a line that
11:59
Speaker 4: people blow past sometimes as well is somebody saying, during
12:03
Speaker 4: this whole thing, people don't know what's happening here.
12:07
Speaker 3: So we have that other layer of abstraction.
12:10
Speaker 4: It's just like people buying stuff on Timu don't think
12:13
Speaker 4: about where it's made. They don't care. All it is
12:16
Speaker 4: is a picture on a screen and that's what I'm buying.
12:20
Speaker 4: I don't have to think about it. Yeah, And I
12:23
Speaker 4: think that in addition to that, this is and I
12:29
Speaker 4: said this before this arc and specific when I'm talking
12:33
Speaker 4: about my previous issues with the series and the way
12:37
Speaker 4: that it is, you know, distributing storyline and pace and
12:42
Speaker 4: tone and all those sorts of things.
12:44
Speaker 3: This is the arc.
12:45
Speaker 4: This is what makes everybody fall in love with this series,
12:48
Speaker 4: regardless of the other issues that they have. This arc,
12:52
Speaker 4: this Narkina five arc and specific and it ends so well,
12:57
Speaker 4: specifically because of the moment with ken O looy when
13:01
Speaker 4: he freezes and he says I can't swim, and the
13:07
Speaker 4: added tragedy of it because you see and or freeze
13:10
Speaker 4: for a second and he's about to go get him
13:13
Speaker 4: when the surge of people pushes him over.
13:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm left.
13:18
Speaker 4: This is what I think is so brilliant about this episode.
13:21
Speaker 4: I'm left wondering what happened to ken O Loi. Yeah,
13:26
Speaker 4: they came back in. They took control of that prison again.
13:29
Speaker 4: Was he simply put back in, was he summarily executed?
13:34
Speaker 4: Was he able to be a stainless steel rat and
13:37
Speaker 4: escape into it and never get caught? And that would
13:40
Speaker 4: be a very interesting series for me to you know, hey,
13:44
Speaker 4: ancillary books, animation, whatever you want to do, tell a
13:48
Speaker 4: story of Keno lay or somebody like Keno Looi who
13:51
Speaker 4: gets into the ducts and he's he's the thing that
13:53
Speaker 4: goes bump and skinners in the night. It's not rats,
13:57
Speaker 4: it's Keno Loi and he's in the ducts and he's
14:00
Speaker 4: trying to get people to move around again and try
14:04
Speaker 4: to get the insurrection going again. And I think that
14:07
Speaker 4: would be a super interesting thing because that is I
14:12
Speaker 4: think that was the perfect way to resolve him, is
14:17
Speaker 4: to leave that question because it's resolved enough that we
14:24
Speaker 4: can talk about it. What happened to him. If they
14:27
Speaker 4: had killed him, we would have been unhappy if he
14:29
Speaker 4: had hit the water and drowned. We would have been
14:31
Speaker 4: unhappy if he had gone back in because he was
14:34
Speaker 4: too afraid. We would have been unhappy if and Or
14:36
Speaker 4: had rescued him. Now we've suddenly got another character that's
14:41
Speaker 4: vying for protagonist time. And additionally, Jock my memory was
14:48
Speaker 4: Cyril in this episode? I don't think he was?
14:50
Speaker 3: Was he?
14:51
Speaker 2: No?
14:51
Speaker 1: It wasn't. It was great.
14:53
Speaker 4: Interesting, it's interesting how good this episode was.
14:56
Speaker 3: And yeah, there was no Cyril in it, was there?
15:00
Speaker 1: So I again, I mean we have to talk about
15:06
Speaker 1: just you know, Andy Serkis is a revelation in this episode,
15:11
Speaker 1: and he truly shows what an incredible actor he is
15:15
Speaker 1: in all of these scenes. But that moment where and
15:18
Speaker 1: we'll talk about it a second, because the music also
15:20
Speaker 1: plays a huge part in that scene as well, like
15:23
Speaker 1: moving you, but there's almost like a giddy, weird joy
15:28
Speaker 1: and he's like, I can't swim.
15:30
Speaker 5: I can't swim, like to realize, like I got this far,
15:35
Speaker 5: I'm out, I'm free, but yeah I can't swim, so
15:40
Speaker 5: but at least I'll die free. And there's just something
15:45
Speaker 5: so human about that moment where it's like I just
15:49
Speaker 5: have to laugh at the cruel irony that sometimes life is.
15:53
Speaker 5: And he plays that to perfection in the way he
15:59
Speaker 5: delivers the the look on his face and then they
16:03
Speaker 5: combine the music that has been swelling this whole time,
16:06
Speaker 5: and you know, Star Wars is so known for the
16:09
Speaker 5: way in which music completes what's happening on screen, and
16:15
Speaker 5: everything is working gangbusters in that moment to sell this
16:23
Speaker 5: emotional release that you've had. Now in this third episode
16:27
Speaker 5: where we've been watching you know him be locked up,
16:32
Speaker 5: it's just oh my gosh. You know, I'm gushing, but
16:36
Speaker 5: it really is it. It is legitimately one of the
16:40
Speaker 5: best things that Star Wars has ever done because of
16:44
Speaker 5: the way in which it really truly works together.
16:47
Speaker 3: It does work really well together.
16:50
Speaker 4: But I think even this is one of those episodes
16:52
Speaker 4: where I would call it out because it works even
16:55
Speaker 4: if you haven't seen anything beforehand.
16:58
Speaker 1: Greed agreed.
17:00
Speaker 4: This is very unique that you can have something that
17:04
Speaker 4: is part of such a larger arc. But I could
17:07
Speaker 4: just show this episode as a standalone to somebody and
17:09
Speaker 4: they could still recognize, Oh, this is just really good.
17:12
Speaker 4: I get everything. I get what's happened. Although the one
17:17
Speaker 4: the one thing with that ties into the other bit
17:19
Speaker 4: of performance that we would all heat praise upon, and
17:24
Speaker 4: that is with with our good old friend Scarsguard, who
17:29
Speaker 4: delivers a monologue that's beautiful because you really feel as
17:37
Speaker 4: you know, I'll.
17:38
Speaker 3: Address it as a longtime fan.
17:43
Speaker 4: Saugerera is not capable of delivering this monologue because he
17:48
Speaker 4: has no regret about the path that he's chosen. He's
17:50
Speaker 4: embraced it. He's more like he's more like Vader. This
17:55
Speaker 4: is who I am, this is what I'm sticking with,
17:57
Speaker 4: and it will take a whole lot to change his heart.
18:01
Speaker 4: Whereas you see, the real tragedy here is that we
18:05
Speaker 4: have a character who's on quote unquote our side, but
18:10
Speaker 4: lives every day with the knowledge, as he says, that
18:12
Speaker 4: he has to use the tactics.
18:14
Speaker 3: Of his own enemy. But he's so.
18:16
Speaker 4: All in at this point. The only thing he can
18:20
Speaker 4: do is ride that all the way to the end.
18:23
Speaker 3: This is it.
18:24
Speaker 4: This is the only ticket he has, and it's the
18:26
Speaker 4: only one he's going to cash in. And I think
18:29
Speaker 4: that's that monologue is beautiful, And I think that the
18:34
Speaker 4: one regret I would have is that it's nested in
18:38
Speaker 4: this episode, which is so terrific with Andy Serkis and
18:45
Speaker 4: Diego Luna, and it's like it's everything vying for attention
18:50
Speaker 4: to another one of those things where I know they
18:52
Speaker 4: couldn't put it anywhere else. There's no magic wand for
18:57
Speaker 4: this this is the best place it could be, probably,
19:00
Speaker 4: but it breaks my heart because it feels like this
19:03
Speaker 4: deserved more time for me to soak in it, like
19:08
Speaker 4: an extra beat or two afterward in action, as opposed
19:15
Speaker 4: to having this wonderful moment and then saying, Okay, sorry,
19:18
Speaker 4: we gotta gotta kind of wrap things up now, you know.
19:21
Speaker 4: And it's like, ah that that sort of thing stings
19:23
Speaker 4: to an extent because it is so good and it
19:26
Speaker 4: gets so overshadowed by the fact that there are so
19:28
Speaker 4: many other great performances in the episode, So it's like
19:32
Speaker 4: an embarrassment of Rich's thing.
19:35
Speaker 1: No, I mean it's I mean that speech. And one
19:42
Speaker 1: I think is so interesting is you know, this speech
19:45
Speaker 1: is really Luthen explaining the cost of the rebellion on
19:57
Speaker 1: so many that will go under noticed and unnamed and
20:03
Speaker 1: uh and and in some ways, I think that's kind
20:06
Speaker 1: of what makes this this story with and Or so
20:14
Speaker 1: interesting because he also himself in some ways is unnoticed
20:19
Speaker 1: and unnamed, you know, because you know, when we think
20:23
Speaker 1: about it historically, you know that this is not These
20:27
Speaker 1: aren't characters that we hear their names uh in the
20:30
Speaker 1: original trilogy. And yes, I know I know the reason, right,
20:35
Speaker 1: but I think that this actually goes to just prove
20:38
Speaker 1: that point of yes, they are going to be people
20:41
Speaker 1: who did things in the background that that nobody else
20:45
Speaker 1: could do or would do, and yet without them we
20:48
Speaker 1: wouldn't be where we are today. And there and then
20:54
Speaker 1: the way that Scars Guard just delivers those lines, I
20:59
Speaker 1: mean it, it's incredibly heartbreaking. And when he just finally
21:05
Speaker 1: gets to the point where he says everything, I've given everything,
21:11
Speaker 1: it's powerful.
21:13
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I think also the thing that is
21:16
Speaker 4: interesting because okay, I'll have two separate points here, One
21:23
Speaker 4: is your point about in the original six movies, we
21:27
Speaker 4: don't have these and door moments where we see, oh,
21:30
Speaker 4: the people who sacrificed everything and lost it all in
21:33
Speaker 4: their identity and everything. We see Luke Skywalker, we see
21:36
Speaker 4: the big hits, We see Obi Wan and Anakin and
21:39
Speaker 4: Padme and Lea. We see these characters having their moment.
21:43
Speaker 4: We don't see them having the long dark night of
21:46
Speaker 4: the soul in the same way that these characters do.
21:50
Speaker 4: That's true, and that's what I'm going to double back
21:54
Speaker 4: to because going from that, you ask the average person
22:01
Speaker 4: and unless they're a history buff, they don't know who
22:03
Speaker 4: Francis Marion is in the American Revolution. The Swamp Fox
22:07
Speaker 4: is a bit of a mystery because he's not George Washington,
22:12
Speaker 4: he's not Thomas Jefferson, he's not Ben Franklin. But Francis
22:18
Speaker 4: Marion was incredibly key to the you know, to the
22:23
Speaker 4: American Revolution. He was very important. They kind of made
22:27
Speaker 4: a movie about him called The Patriot where it was
22:30
Speaker 4: kind of him but whatever.
22:33
Speaker 3: But it's still not a car.
22:37
Speaker 4: He's like, you know, he's like an andor where it's
22:41
Speaker 4: like it it really needed him to work. But we
22:44
Speaker 4: talk about the larger names in the thing, and the
22:48
Speaker 4: thing that I would come back around to is by
22:53
Speaker 4: opening it up and showing these characters. Do you think
22:57
Speaker 4: because this is a this is a This is something
22:58
Speaker 4: people have been talking about since Rogue one first came out,
23:01
Speaker 4: and some of the post Rogue one materials have leaned
23:07
Speaker 4: into this, especially in writing. I think I think Alphabet
23:11
Speaker 4: Squadron had a character say something to this effect. Where
23:16
Speaker 4: does it take anything away from Luke in The Rebellion,
23:22
Speaker 4: or Leah or Han, Orlando or you know the characters
23:26
Speaker 4: we know from the films. Does it take anything away
23:29
Speaker 4: from them to have these stories show such a gritty, dark,
23:34
Speaker 4: sacrificial aspect to them.
23:36
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. And I think a part
23:39
Speaker 1: of that is and Luthen actually says that right when
23:45
Speaker 1: he's making this speech, He's like, stands before me is
23:48
Speaker 1: the hero and we need the heroes. And so the
23:55
Speaker 1: role that Luke and Leah Han even mon Mathma will
24:00
Speaker 1: play right is to be the people that people see
24:04
Speaker 1: as kind of the hero is important and you need
24:10
Speaker 1: those because there's they're inspirational, right that there there is
24:14
Speaker 1: there's just something about that. I mean, we need that.
24:17
Speaker 1: And so No, I think what this just does. It
24:20
Speaker 1: just adds depth, right, It doesn't take anything away. I
24:24
Speaker 1: think it just adds depth. And of course, you know, again,
24:29
Speaker 1: Gilroy's whole point in this was to say I wanted
24:31
Speaker 1: to take Star Wars as seriously as anybody had ever
24:34
Speaker 1: taken it, and I think he does that in this show.
24:39
Speaker 1: But in doing that, I just don't I don't think
24:43
Speaker 1: that it it does take anything away from any of
24:47
Speaker 1: the other characters. I think it just really Yeah, I
24:53
Speaker 1: think the same thing that we've talked about with any
24:59
Speaker 1: expanded universe novel. What you want that thing to do
25:04
Speaker 1: is to enhance the thing that I then watch later
25:07
Speaker 1: on or you know, and I think and or then
25:10
Speaker 1: just enhances my enjoyment and my understanding of everything around it.
25:17
Speaker 1: And so no, I don't. I don't feel that. Do
25:22
Speaker 1: you think about it or feel that at all?
25:25
Speaker 3: No, I don't think that way. Primarily I.
25:31
Speaker 4: I don't personally think that way because I think that
25:34
Speaker 4: it this is just a different story. This is you
25:38
Speaker 4: know this so meanwhile over here, And I guess maybe
25:43
Speaker 4: when you grow up a comic book fan, you're used
25:45
Speaker 4: to this sort of thing where they were constantly doing meanwhile,
25:48
Speaker 4: you know that sort of thing. I think that there
25:53
Speaker 4: is a frustration I have is when I see it
25:57
Speaker 4: creep into other materials, Like it irked me when I
26:02
Speaker 4: saw in one of the books where somebody was talking about, oh, yeah, well,
26:08
Speaker 4: Luke Skywalker wouldn't have been anything without jin Urso, And
26:11
Speaker 4: I'm like, why can't they both just be heroes?
26:13
Speaker 3: Guys?
26:13
Speaker 4: Why do you have to take away from what person
26:16
Speaker 4: A did because of what person B did. Why don't
26:19
Speaker 4: you just say person A and B both did great things,
26:22
Speaker 4: as opposed to trying to say one is greater than
26:26
Speaker 4: you know one.
26:26
Speaker 3: Is greater exactly.
26:28
Speaker 4: That's the type of stuff that that I have seen
26:32
Speaker 4: that gets under my skin.
26:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's.
26:35
Speaker 4: That's something that so long as it's not like quote
26:38
Speaker 4: unquote official materials, I don't really paint it any mind.
26:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's probably in a book that only like five
26:43
Speaker 1: people read anyway.
26:44
Speaker 3: So probably probably, but the same thing.
26:49
Speaker 5: But I.
26:51
Speaker 4: Throw as much shade as you want to. It's it's
26:55
Speaker 4: it's an irritating thing to me because again it demonstrates
26:59
Speaker 4: a limited point of view, as obi Wan might say.
27:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, but.
27:05
Speaker 4: I have to ask, is there anything that you see
27:10
Speaker 4: as a failing in the episode? Is there anything where
27:12
Speaker 4: it falls short?
27:16
Speaker 1: So I think, okay, just no, there there isn't And
27:21
Speaker 1: a big part of that is because I think you
27:24
Speaker 1: mentioned one, there's no serial in this episode, so we're
27:27
Speaker 1: not shoving things into the episode that doesn't need to
27:29
Speaker 1: be there. And the thing that the things that are
27:34
Speaker 1: there are accentuating the a story of them escaping, which
27:42
Speaker 1: is all the hard decisions they're having to make to
27:44
Speaker 1: make this happen. So what are we seeing. We're seeing
27:48
Speaker 1: mon Mathma have to make these terrible decisions for the
27:55
Speaker 1: things she knows she needs the most for the greater good,
27:58
Speaker 1: getting herself you know, into bed with this, you know
28:01
Speaker 1: Davos character figuratively speaking figuratively speaking, yes, very figuratively. And
28:07
Speaker 1: yet what does he want in return? He doesn't want
28:11
Speaker 1: money because he doesn't care about money. He wants to
28:14
Speaker 1: utilize her for prestige. And then he also wants to
28:19
Speaker 1: to connect their families, you know, via the possibility of marriage,
28:26
Speaker 1: which we've already seen, and we get a taste even
28:30
Speaker 1: more in this episode about the fact that Chandrillin marriages
28:34
Speaker 1: are marriages of more convenience and more of you know,
28:43
Speaker 1: political ramifications than they really are love. And so therefore
28:51
Speaker 1: that's what he's basically asking for for his son and
28:54
Speaker 1: her daughter, which you know I find to be again,
29:03
Speaker 1: will she compromise her values and beliefs to have happen
29:09
Speaker 1: what she knows needs to happen? And again, like her
29:13
Speaker 1: performance is great there, the guy who's playing Davos is
29:17
Speaker 1: just so wickedly despicable.
29:21
Speaker 3: Yeah.
29:21
Speaker 4: Can I just say what I love about the fact
29:23
Speaker 4: that they named him Davos is because of Davos, Switzerland,
29:27
Speaker 4: where all those super wealthy people show up at least
29:30
Speaker 4: like once a year, where and they talk about how
29:33
Speaker 4: they're going to shape the fate of the world. I'm like,
29:36
Speaker 4: that is some slick character naming like that is just
29:41
Speaker 4: absolutely like I'm like, I stand up and I salute
29:44
Speaker 4: that because I'm like, man, I see what you did.
29:47
Speaker 4: I love you for that is that is some top
29:50
Speaker 4: not sneaking in commentary right there.
29:53
Speaker 1: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And so no, I mean
29:59
Speaker 1: there for me, this is this is the episode which
30:03
Speaker 1: is just like you know, it's it's kind of the
30:06
Speaker 1: pinnacle of the season so far, where it's just everything
30:11
Speaker 1: is working on all cylinders and the editing of the
30:16
Speaker 1: storylines is perfection. And I think it also, I mean,
30:20
Speaker 1: even the little bit we get with the empire and
30:23
Speaker 1: stuff all again, it's all playing in to every other
30:29
Speaker 1: part of the story. It's so it just kind of
30:32
Speaker 1: goes to the show something that we've batted around a
30:34
Speaker 1: little bit. It's like, did we need the serial character
30:39
Speaker 1: in this the way that he is portrayed and or
30:41
Speaker 1: just even just the way he is? But no, I mean,
30:44
Speaker 1: this episode is is awesome. Where do you land on
30:48
Speaker 1: this one? And was there anything that I know you're
30:52
Speaker 1: more of a stickler for editing and that kind of stuff,
30:54
Speaker 1: So was there anything that you felt like could have
30:57
Speaker 1: been excised or done differently.
30:58
Speaker 4: Or honestly, no, I think that this is I will
31:04
Speaker 4: go ahead and hang perfect episode metal around this episode.
31:10
Speaker 4: I can honestly say that the first time I went
31:14
Speaker 4: through this series, I was touch and go. Until Narkina five.
31:19
Speaker 4: I was kind of like, Eh, you know, it's good,
31:21
Speaker 4: but it's not you know, it's not light me on fire.
31:24
Speaker 3: I really don't like this serial guy.
31:26
Speaker 4: And I'm going along and that it hits this episode
31:30
Speaker 4: and this is the one where I was like, okay, fine,
31:32
Speaker 4: I'm riding it out till the end because this is magnificent.
31:38
Speaker 4: I think in retrospect we're going to look back and
31:40
Speaker 4: realize that this is a little bit more classical structure
31:44
Speaker 4: in the sense that this is the climax of the
31:47
Speaker 4: story and the rest is as the French might say,
31:51
Speaker 4: denu mont, where it's just that it's the falling action
31:54
Speaker 4: from here on out. This is the climax for me
31:57
Speaker 4: of this season because this is this is where everything
32:02
Speaker 4: gets set. Everything from this point forward is wrap up
32:07
Speaker 4: and am I right? Am I wrong? I'll find out
32:10
Speaker 4: on this rewatch. But that's my impression of it is
32:13
Speaker 4: like this episode does if This is the climax of everything.
32:19
Speaker 4: It hits every mark that it needs, and it is
32:23
Speaker 4: as a result, in the context of the series.
32:25
Speaker 3: This is a perfect episode. Wouldn't touch a darn thing this.
32:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a five out of five, Like you know,
32:33
Speaker 1: this is this is everything that you wanted from from
32:37
Speaker 1: the season and it's it's incredibly well done. And rewatching it,
32:46
Speaker 1: you know, I was. I was just as moved watching
32:51
Speaker 1: it this time as I was the first time I
32:54
Speaker 1: watched it. And I think that is the hallmark of
32:59
Speaker 1: a good Star Wars episode is when you can watch
33:03
Speaker 1: the episode and every single emotion that they are wanting
33:11
Speaker 1: you to feel, you feel again that I put this
33:16
Speaker 1: in the same category as the way I feel about
33:20
Speaker 1: like watching and then rewatching the finale to the Clone
33:24
Speaker 1: Wars those four episodes. You know, that's the kind of
33:28
Speaker 1: feeling I get when I watch this.
33:32
Speaker 3: I love that for you, I don't.
33:36
Speaker 4: I'm going to preface it and say, well, I consider
33:38
Speaker 4: this a perfect episode in this context. I don't know
33:41
Speaker 4: that emotionally, I get to the same point as what
33:44
Speaker 4: you're describing, because that final arc of the Clone Wars
33:48
Speaker 4: devastated me in a different way that left a little
33:53
Speaker 4: bit more of a there's a little bit more of
33:55
Speaker 4: a mark left at the end of that one, which
33:58
Speaker 4: tied into a lot of other things. But I I
34:02
Speaker 4: respect what you're saying there, and.
34:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, and I I think I get why. I
34:10
Speaker 1: I definitely get why I think you feel the way
34:14
Speaker 1: that you do. And I think what I am not.
34:20
Speaker 1: Let me put it this way. I am not saying
34:24
Speaker 1: that I necessarily think that they're on the same level
34:32
Speaker 1: in their importance to me. M okay, I'm saying they
34:38
Speaker 1: are on the same level in the sense that the
34:40
Speaker 1: motions that the creators want me to feel in these
34:45
Speaker 1: moments I see is just the same for me. And so, yeah,
34:49
Speaker 1: what you said made me want to clarify that, because yeah,
34:53
Speaker 1: that that is not Ah.
34:58
Speaker 3: Well, that's good because I I was about.
35:00
Speaker 4: To be like zod in Man of Steel goersy, you know,
35:04
Speaker 4: so you know, at least sort of. Yeah, So yeah,
35:08
Speaker 4: that's an important clarification.
35:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, No, I'm glad you asked the you know,
35:13
Speaker 1: you said what you said, because it definitely I don't
35:16
Speaker 1: want people to kind of come away with this being like,
35:18
Speaker 1: oh wow, can I trust Matt's opinion at all anymore?
35:22
Speaker 3: You can't. You can't. This is this is an emergency
35:25
Speaker 3: message I've taken over the prison.
35:26
Speaker 1: I'm telling you right now you can't anyway. Yeah, man,
35:31
Speaker 1: I one of the things that I think I'm really
35:35
Speaker 1: loving about, you know, I'm loving about this is just
35:43
Speaker 1: us being like, once we kind of got back to
35:45
Speaker 1: some of the pulled back from some of the kind
35:48
Speaker 1: of frustrating things that you had about the show. I've
35:54
Speaker 1: just really been enjoying the way in which this We've
35:57
Speaker 1: been able to have some great discus Russians about about
36:04
Speaker 1: the show, and it's been a lot of fun. So
36:08
Speaker 1: but but John, you know, if people do want to
36:12
Speaker 1: catch up with you and talk to you about the
36:14
Speaker 1: things that you've got going on in your life, or
36:18
Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe they just want to You're like,
36:20
Speaker 1: you know what, I want to know what John thinks
36:23
Speaker 1: about this? In Star Wars? Where can people find you?
36:27
Speaker 4: I don't even want to know what I think about
36:29
Speaker 4: in Star Wars. But I appreciate everybody humoring me and
36:31
Speaker 4: letting me talk every so often into the microphone.
36:34
Speaker 3: Here.
36:34
Speaker 4: You can reach me at the user named kessel Junkie.
36:37
Speaker 4: When I am active on social media, which is not
36:40
Speaker 4: often right now, but when I am, that's where you
36:43
Speaker 4: can find me. And you can find me right here
36:45
Speaker 4: on the network, co hosting a show called house Lights,
36:50
Speaker 4: a film director podcast where we it's basically an excuse
36:53
Speaker 4: for us to watch movies and talk about it. It's
36:55
Speaker 4: a Tristan Radell and Darren Moser co host it with me,
36:58
Speaker 4: and it's basically just us sitting around talking and having
37:02
Speaker 4: fun about movies.
37:03
Speaker 3: So you know, give it a shot.
37:05
Speaker 4: But I do also fill some of my spare time
37:08
Speaker 4: over on the six oh two Club over on the
37:10
Speaker 4: TFM network, which everybody should love, and I think, Matt,
37:13
Speaker 4: that's one of the places where they can find you
37:15
Speaker 4: online as well.
37:17
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you can find me at six oh two Club
37:19
Speaker 1: talking about all those franchises that we love outside of
37:22
Speaker 1: Star Trek, and then on the TFF network you'll find
37:25
Speaker 1: me with a lot of Star Trek talk, and I
37:30
Speaker 1: hope you'll check all those shows out Here on the
37:34
Speaker 1: Nerd Party Network, you'll find me on a show called
37:36
Speaker 1: owl Post where Dreya Kaufman and I talked about every
37:39
Speaker 1: single chapter of Harry Potter series, one chapter at a time.
37:42
Speaker 1: And last but not least, you can find me over
37:45
Speaker 1: on social media under the name Matt Rushing Zone too,
37:48
Speaker 1: So if I'm on that platform, that'll be the name
37:50
Speaker 1: that I'm under. But you know, John, I hear the
37:55
Speaker 1: chimes of meditation there at the Temple, and you know,
37:59
Speaker 1: after the stress of this episode, I think I could
38:02
Speaker 1: use some meditation in the room of a thousand fountains.
38:04
Speaker 1: So I think it's time we close these negotiations.
38:08
Speaker 4: And I'll just be jumping around in the fountains being
38:11
Speaker 4: a scamp master.
38:12
Speaker 3: Rushing Negotiations are
38:21
Speaker 2: Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party on program