Latest / Drive with John Perlman / Coalitions and party marriages

Transcript

Coalitions and party marriages · Drive with John Perlman

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: You're with John Pullman on 702.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: Let's walk the talk.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: So as the vote counting continues, the counting mostly done,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: the capturing needs to get dealt with. Then there will
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: be some objections that need to get sorted out. We'll
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: hear in a moment from the IEC about exactly what
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: the process for that is. And then talk turns to coalitions. Complicated.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Somebody who's dealt with many of these political parties at
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: first hand, not so much in terms of coalitions, but
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: you remember the putting together of the moonshot pact that
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: was in advance of the 2024 elections. My guest, Professor
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: William Goumede, has engaged with politicians firsthand in In that
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: process and in the many conversations he's had with them,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: he is founder of the Democracy Works Foundation and is
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: a professor at the Wits School of Governance. Prof, welcome
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and thanks very much for giving us your time. How
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: difficult do you think these coalition talks are going to be?
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Politicians invariably in the build-up to elections don't speak particularly
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: well of each other. Are there ways in which they
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: can be persuaded to talk with a degree of focus?
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Because getting coalitions together is going to require that.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Good afternoon, John. It's been quite a long while and
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: afternoon to listen to this. Yes, you know, I was
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: actually involved in the proposals for what is now called
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: a coalition bill, which is more formally called the Municipal
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Structures Amendment Bill, which is sitting now in Parliament, sadly,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: and it hasn't been adopted. So in February 2024, Stargardt,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: the South African Local Government Association, asked me to be
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: the co-chair of the process that actually made the proposals
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: for that bill. Now, the sad part of it is because,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: you know, the proposal was aimed to bring some kind
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: of order at a local government coalition level and deal
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: with the paralysis instability. Now, then the ANC actually had
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: a majority view. You know, I have to take you
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: back to 2024, February 2024, ANC was still in power.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: And I was, then it was under the impression, or
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: we were under the impression that, you know, they put
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: it together, very anxious to then put it through Parliament
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: while they still had a majority. But unfortunately, it did
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: not happen. And it is now much more difficult because
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: we've got a subset of Parliament now to put it through.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: And I still hope that Possibly that the GNU could
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: come together and actually proceed through Parliament and, you know,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: and it could potentially become the GNU's first united policy
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: response if they can pull it off. Now, I mean,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: coming back to, directly to your question, you know, I
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: think that we are now, we are in a coalition
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: country now and coalitions in municipal level, we may actually
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: see after, you know, when it does settle, yeah, after
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: after the election, there may be a record number of
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: councils where no party has a majority. So we're going
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: to have to see if we have some kind of coalition. Now,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: the problem at the municipal level is, like at national level,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: there's only 14 days to pull these things together. Yeah,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: it's tight. And that's the challenge. So what we actually
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: propose in the bill is to move that from 14
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: days to 30 days. So unfortunately, that'll We'll have to
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: deal now with the 14 days. That's the first part
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: of it. The second part of it is now you
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: need some kind of maturity at that level to put
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: together coalitions. And sadly, most of our politicians are not
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: that mature and emotionally mature and not always focusing on
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: the public interest because you might put a coalition together.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: The key The key issue with a coalition, a working coalition,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: is you have to have the ability to get the
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: parties at least to agree to govern in the public
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: interest and not in their party interest.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's going to be a very hard thing.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: I wonder from the vantage point that working with parties
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: in building the Moonshot Pact might have given you. Action
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: SA and the DA appear to have a relationship that
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: is more fractious now. arguably, than any other relationship I've observed. Now,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: if I'm mischaracterizing it, please feel free to correct me.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: But what's the root of that? Is that about personalities?
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Because on many policies, they don't seem to differ that fundamentally.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: John, I'll have to be very, very careful here now
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: if I explain that to you. because, you know, I
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: did chair their process, and, you know, they were key
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: figures in the multi-party charter. I think it came out
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: of the process, you know, when a decision was made,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: you know, when a group of the 15 political parties
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: that were part of the multi-party charter, there's a DA, IFP,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Freedom Front Plus, IFP, and so on, when they did
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: not get a majority vote, in the 2024 national elections.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: You know, they could not put a government together. So
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: the idea was, what I negotiated for them, with them,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: was to put together what would be a government, a
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: national coalition government and a model, how would they work
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: and so on. Now, there was a key decision that
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: they had to make was, well, when they could not
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: put a government together because it would have included the
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: EFF and MK, right? and so on. So a decision
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: was initially, you know, some parties wanted to go into
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: opposition and others wanted to partner with the ANC. And
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I think that is where the conflict arose out of that.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: So fundamentally... Yeah, fundamental differences about if you can't do
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: it all yourself, then who else to partner with? Thank you,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Professor William Goumedes. Some important insights. into the putting together
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: of coalitions and a real sense of missed opportunities that
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: there was legislation that could have been passed that much
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: more closely and carefully regulated what exactly happens with coalitions.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: He joins us from the Wits School of Governance and
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: is also the founder of Democracy Works. It's 22 minutes
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: past five.