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E14: Disrupting Excuses with Pam Love · Executive Alliance Podcast

• Rebecca Snyder: Welcome everyone. I am Rebecca Snyder. I'm excited to have Dr. Pam Love in the studio on a very rainy afternoon. So if we all hear thunder, that's why it could be a little crazy. Pamela Love: Yes. Rebecca Snyder: But Pam, not only is she the board chair of Executive Alliance, but she is the president and chief learning officer for DP Love Enterprises, which is a leadership development, executive Pamela Love: you Rebecca Snyder: coaching, and organizational consulting firm. So I am really excited to have you here today, Pam, so welcome. Pamela Love: Thank you, Rebecca. I'm excited to be here and talk about disrupting excuses is what you said you wanted to talk about a little bit and talk about disrupting with the storms that we're having right now. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Well, and so when I was reading your website and looking at different things, one of the things that you really focus on is helping individuals and organizations disrupt excuses. And of course, you have the Finisher Network, you do a lot of different things. But tell me what disrupting excuses really means. Unpack that. Pamela Love: You know, so Rebecca, one of the things that I've found is people often have a lot of excuses about why they don't make progress. So with the Finisher's Network, we say make progress, not excuses. And so disrupting those excuses mean that we're identifying the patterns, identifying those loops in the mind that prevent people from moving forward. So it's identifying those patterns, identifying the narrative, the story that you tell yourself, and being able to shift that. so that you're able to be able to make progress. So that's what disrupting excuses is about. Rebecca Snyder: So tell me about a time where that happened in your own life because the disrupting excuses doesn't just pop out of nowhere. Did you notice that pattern in your own life and that's why you adopted it or tell me more. Pamela Love: Absolutely. Yeah. There were many stories that I've told myself. Rebecca Snyder: . Pamela Love: the reality is there are often positions that I found myself in that I didn't feel I was qualified for. I felt there was someone else that, don't have the skills. I've never sat in this seat. I've never done. And so there was a narrative that I had and that would prevent me from showing up in a way that allowed me to be fully present and be myself. And that's what people wanted. They just wanted me to be myself. they saw potential in me that I often did not see. I, you know, I would make a lot of excuses. And I tell you the other thing, there were many life experiences that I have. have a history of trauma. And so even from early childhood, so as a result of that, there were various stories that I would tell myself and I would shrink. I was telling myself, you're not good enough. No, you shouldn't do that. They're not going to like you. There were many things that were looping in my own head. Rebecca Snyder: So how did you break free of that? Because in some ways, it feels very protective. And I don't know if that's characterizing it appropriately. But how do you break out of that diminishment of yourself that feels very safe? If you're putting yourself in the box, I think, that protects you from things that you might fail at. Pamela Love: It's also very self-sabotaging, very self-sabotaging. And so how did I break out of that? It was therapy. It was having someone who was going to, who was objective, who would help me to disrupt those excuses. It's what are you telling yourself? And sometimes I had to laugh at myself. I said, that sounded really silly, doesn't it? So having someone who was objective, who could help me was really important. self-awareness, increasing self-awareness became very important. Rebecca Snyder: And do you catch yourself in the moment when you were training that muscle to disrupt your excuses? Did you kind of just know it was happening in the moment or was it reflection? Tell me how it actually worked for you. Pamela Love: Yeah, as you begin to increase self-awareness, you hear your thoughts. You begin to pay attention. So I do a lot of work around emotion regulation. And one thing is becoming aware of your emotions. Because of my personal trauma, I had become very disconnected from emotions. So I dissociated. As a result of me dissociated, if you asked me how was I feeling, I'd say I'm fine. I couldn't put real feeling words to that. I had not learned to tune into my body and say, what are my emotions telling me? Once I began to learn how to do that, I didn't feel good at first. It was hard. It was hard to realize, I'm angry. it's deeper than that. I feel betrayed. Once I was able to start putting feeling words to that and identify what was going on in my body, that helped me to begin to slow down my thinking, pay attention to what I was feeling, what led to, and then what the thoughts were. And as a result, now I'm not saying what I would have said. Now I'm not doing what I would have done. Rebecca Snyder: So it feels like there's some distancing there to get that self-awareness and then evaluating what am I going to do next? Pamela Love: Absolutely. Rebecca Snyder: So you work both on a systems perspective in organizations and also with individuals. So when you were talking about that disrupting excuses and sort of learning to regulate your feelings, how do you apply that to organizational or systems thinking? Pamela Love: It's usually with the leadership and so working with leadership to increase self-awareness because that is one of the things that I've found. There are a number of leaders, I won't put a percentage on it, but there are a number of leaders who don't have high self-awareness. They think they do. And so it's about helping them to identify how their patterns of behavior are affecting the organization. Now of course there are policies that are in place, there's culture, there's a of different things that you look at in the process. But where does that come from? A lot of it's come from, it's from people. Rebecca Snyder: How do you have the conversation, you're coaching, you're working with governance, you're doing all sorts of things, but how do you have that conversation with someone who thinks they're self-aware but really is not picking it up? Pamela Love: Some of it is through assessments. So we use a variety of assessments to help individuals. And sometimes they're getting feedback from other people. So let's talk to other people. So for instance, I use one, and there are many assessments, but one is the Johari window. I love the Johari window. You're familiar with that? Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Pamela Love: Yeah, so using that, think about that. You've identified specific. Rebecca Snyder: But for people who don't know Jahari's Window, tell us what it does. Pamela Love: Okay. So the Jahari window is an exercise where you identify specific adjectives. So let's just say you decided you were going to identify 10. Then you're going to give it to people who know you well, people you work with, people that are in your family, whoever you decide to give it to. And you ask them to identify the same number of adjectives. You're giving them the same list, but you're not telling them what the list is or what you've selected. Basically, what you then are looking at, you're really looking for your blind spot. So there are these four windows, these four panes. And what you're really looking at, your blind spots and the part of you that you know but other people don't know that they probably should or that's affecting them in ways that you need to shift. So there are things that you know that other people know. There are, and that fourth pane is things that you or other people don't know. And those things come in time. So there are four windows and with those two, the two that you're really focusing on are what are your blind spots? And the one that you know I know this about myself but other people don't know but they should. Rebecca Snyder: Did you have a blind spot that really surprised you? I guess maybe all blind spots surprise you, but when you did that exercise, what did you find out about yourself? Pamela Love: That's a good question. It's been so long since I've done that. I found out so much. There's so much that I've found out about myself Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Pamela Love: over time. But in terms of a blind spot that I was surprised. I have to think about that. Can we come back to that one? Rebecca Snyder: We'll come back. Pamela Love: Really good one. Huh. Rebecca Snyder: Well, you have your known knowns and your unknown unknowns. Pamela Love: That's right. Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: And so I wanted to turn our attention to healing leadership because so much healing and leadership, because so much of what you do, you work with a lot of trauma survivors, violence interrupters, returning citizens. You're working with people who are really struggling to find not just a leadership place in the world, but their place in the world. So. Tell me what drew you to that type of work and how that's different from other types of coaching you might do. Pamela Love: Yeah, so I was, I didn't select that work. It selected me. And that's an important distinction. I was invited to help an organization with their board of directors. They wanted to build the board. They didn't have orientation of the board members, policies, practices in place. And so I was asked to do that work. I go in, and this particular organization had a training division where they had workforce development. And at some point, my dissertation was on transfer of training. So I've studied training. extensively. So the executive director asked if I would come in and just look at whether their trainers were adhering to the fidelity of the curriculum. I said, sure, I can do that. Well, as it turns out, eventually I was asked, can you come in and fill in? And what I had observed were individuals who had been justice involved that were probably 40s, 50s, something like that. And so when I was asked to come in and do this work, just very temporarily, one or a few, I think it was a week, something like that. I walked in the door and it was the 19 to 24 year olds in Washington DC. I stood there going, what in the world? What do I do? But that has become some of my most rewarding work. So it selected me, I didn't select it. I don't know that I would have ever walked into that role had I not been asked in the way that I was. Rebecca Snyder: What's so rewarding about it? Pamela Love: It is seeing people who... in many cases are hopeless. Seeing many people who have been beaten down by in this justice system, criminal legal system, I guess they call it, but it's watching the transformation when people really are empowered to make decisions, when they get employment, when families are being healed, when family members who they weren't talking to before, they're now talking to them. It's empowering. I think that's the most rewarding part for me. Rebecca Snyder: So, and it does sound very rewarding. Can you tell me more about what that looks like? Because those, that sounds like a lot of complicated, big issues. And when you say, we're doing a training program that perhaps it feels like there has to be more than just training in there. So what, how are you lifting those people up? Because restoration of hope is a big deal. Pamela Love: It really is. So I am certified in a curriculum called Thinking for Change, which is for justice-involved individuals. They use it inside the prisons. And a lot of it is around emotional intelligence. And in that training, so workforce development, what they found, this particular organization found that it was easy to get people a job, but it was that they did not stay. Their emotions, what they had been dealing with were getting in the way. And so they might go in. in and they might hit someone. They might just walk off the job in a very short period of time. And so my role would be to go in and help them to manage their emotions. And so I do a lot of role playing. do information, of course, but I do a lot of role playing related to scenarios that they've probably faced. And I want them to go from zero to 100. I want to see how they're going to behave in a real scenario. And now I can help them to calm down, pay attention to what going on, recognize that emotions are signals, just like your check engine light comes on, you know that, you know, that means something. You don't always know exactly what that means, but you know it means something. And so that's what I'm doing. And to see them go from zero to 100 to zero to maybe 10 or to pause or to say, I would have hit that. And I'll give you an example. One gentleman, we were talking about responding to anger and one gentleman came in the next day. We had done a number of role plays. The gentleman came in and said, you know, I wasn't going to come in. He came in late, first of all. I didn't say anything. But once he sat down, he said, can I say something? said, sure. He said, I went home and my girlfriend was mad because I'm coming to training. He said, and she poured bleach on all of my clothes except for what I have on. Yes. So can you imagine the anger that he is? And he said, I almost punched her. But I paused. He utilized the tools. So it's that kind of thing when you see when people decide, no, no, no. I'm not going to do what I normally would have done. That's very rewarding. And it takes some practice. But I really do push them. Now, having said that, I do some of that work with leadership. Rebecca Snyder: I wanted to relate it to what have you taken from that experience and applied to leadership development. Pamela Love: Yeah, I find that again, many people are not as self-aware. So we use different assessments. Sometimes we'll do role plays depending on the type of training or interactions. If it's coaching, then there's a conversation. And again, I want the person to get some feedback so that we have some data to use for as part of the conversation. it's still often it is about self-awareness, self-regulation, and self-management. Those are the two areas that I end up working with most individuals. Rebecca Snyder: Did you know you had a special talent for leadership development and for unlocking these tools for people? Pamela Love: When did I realize I had a special, you know, it's been probably in the last. maybe five years that I really recognized it. I knew there was something that was there, but I did not recognize it. Now, let me tell you this. I knew in terms of leadership that I could influence people, you know, in some ways and just kind of get them to do certain things. When I was in elementary school and I decided to run for student government and my slogan was, on down, boogie and jam, vote for me, my name is Pam. Rebecca Snyder: You could have gone in so many different directions, Pam. I mean, believe me. Pamela Love: That's true. And I won. I won. Rebecca Snyder: No doubt. my gosh, yes. Pamela Love: So I knew, wow, there's something to this. But I really didn't pay attention. It's probably been in the last. maybe 10 years. think it's probably been the last 10 years where I really saw what a difference because people were coming and saying, wow, I applied what you taught me and this, you know, and I'm using what you said and seeing a difference. But I didn't see that as something special before. Rebecca Snyder: So were you moving in the world differently? And it doesn't sound like you had like this big awakening, like, this is my calling. It sounds like an evolution. I getting that right? Pamela Love: just having fun. I enjoy it. I really do. Anything that allows me to be creative and you know training, working with leaders, coaching allows me to be creative. I enjoy it. And so I get to be me. You know for those that some may need laughter, you know makeup games, whatever we need to do to help someone shift from where they are to what they're trying to accomplish is what I'll do. Rebecca Snyder: Well, and you've reached people in so many different ways because you're also a published author. So tell me about the books that you've written and what you were trying to do when you were creating those books. Pamela Love: So all of books are basically self-help. And my first book was my story. It was my personal story. It's all about love, living your purpose in spite of your past. And so I openly share a lot of the things that I had experienced and then redirected to the reader to say, all right, these are my buts, but what are yours? What's keeping you from doing what you want to do? That then led me to write the second book. I was a professor at a university University in Maryland and lots of young women across the campus. was faculty enhancement advisor for female organizations. So was meeting, you know, women across the campus and had been going around speaking at different places around the country. And so people were asking me, you know, different questions, but they were also telling me stories. I was finding that there was a common theme that when they were talking about things that happened to them, they had been raped, they had been molested, they had been and gone through lots of domestic violence. And the common theme was a sexual encounter. And so that led to me writing the second book, which is I Want My Vagina Back. And that one is stories of women that range from extramarital affairs, just to all sorts of scenarios that I had heard about. And basically, at the end of each chapter, there are questions. So why do we say yes when we want to say no? So that book became a conversation starter and has traveled actually outside of the world. Outside of the world. Wouldn't that be nice? It's traveled Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Pamela Love: outside of the country to other places. A number of people have used it for various groups. So that led to, but all of the books basically have been self-help. Tony Draper and I, or I should say Reverend Dr. Tony Draper and I co-authored a book called Life Happens, But You Can Finish. And we have 12 women who share their stories in that particular book, a book of healing, what they go through and how did they finish what they started. And then my last book is See You at the Finish Line, Cultivating the Mindset of a Finisher. And I'll be releasing another one this year about endurance and finishing. Rebecca Snyder: Well, I want to talk about the finishing network because you have a whole program around that. first, I just wanted to talk about the relation. A couple of times you've talked about how people are feeling in their body, especially in the I Want My Vagina Back book and how the kind of physical is relating to the emotional. And could you talk more about that connection and how it affects leadership or even just someone's personal development. Pamela Love: or You take a person, for instance, who is feeling angry. Think about how they're likely to behave. And sometimes leaders are dismissive. Sometimes they will yell at people. They can be aggressive. Or they could be passive aggressive. so recognizing, one, what's happening in your body. So I will ask people, how do you know when you are angry? Where in your body tells you that you're feeling that? It's interesting. So many people are not able to tell. me that. But once you get them to really tune in, they say, I feel, you know, my heart rate goes up. So first identifying where in your body tells you that you're feeling something. Because again, emotions are signals. And now what's your likely response? What do do with that? And so helping once you make that connection to recognize what am I feeling? What does that mean? What is that telling me that I'm feeling this now? What do I generally do about it? And what do I to shift. So that's what we do. Rebecca Snyder: So why do you think people are disconnected from the actual sensory elements of their body? Pamela Love: We're often taught to suppress emotions. We're taught to ignore them. Think about it. Children sometimes stop crying. We are told, you shouldn't cry. We're not taught to necessarily recognize or express certain emotions. so depending on the culture that you're part of, that's really a big deal. So when you are able to... When you're taught that, that becomes a pattern for you. Think about it, in leadership, we're often, if you were to cry, you hear women who will say, and not just women, but because we're talking a lot about women, women will say, no, no, no, I'm not gonna cry in that meeting. What Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Pamela Love: are the tools, what do you use to stop yourself from crying when somebody makes you really upset? Because what does that do? For some, people view you as being weak. And so we suppress a lot. There was a, I think he's a psychologist, who said he had been a dermatologist and it was interesting and I'll never forget this he said he became a psychologist he wanted to deal with the mind because he was tired of seeing people weeping through their skin. Rebecca Snyder: wow, that's a powerful piece. Pamela Love: Yeah. He said, once people started dealing with the emotions, in some cases, not always, eczema and all sorts of other skin conditions begin to clear up and other physical conditions. Rebecca Snyder: Have you seen that, have you seen, I mean, you're not a dermatologist, but have you seen that sort of trajectory of people's physical ailments kind of being mitigated by their emotional health? Pamela Love: Absolutely, especially headaches. I can say that myself. I used to get migraines regularly. Once a month I had a migraine at least. Over time, once I began to deal with the emotions, I don't have them like I did. But I have seen others similarly. Different conditions that they had once they started allowing themselves to express emotions in a healthy way. That they just not going to last shouted people away, but once they stopped suppressing, they started feeling better. Rebecca Snyder: then I feel like you have so much of this figured out. Are you still working on things yourself? Like what are you working on now? Pamela Love: What am I working on now? It is still. That's a really good question. What am I working on? There's so much I'm working on right now, Rebecca, honestly. You know what? I am working on really just enjoying this season of my life and being at peace, experiencing joy, deciding what is important to me, and not sweating the small stuff like I used to. Rebecca Snyder: So what's prompting that? mean, is that sort of stage of the career, like time and age? How can we reach that nirvana? Pamela Love: You know, a big part of that has been my children. Rebecca Snyder: Tell me more. Pamela Love: My children have shared so much with me. I'll give you an example. Went through a life transition and was looking at moving. And my son said to me one day, he said, mom, think about what's going to appeal to all five of your senses and where you move. And I had, and now his house would appeal to all five of my senses. So Rebecca Snyder: You Pamela Love: he knew that I would say, I love that candle. What's that smell? Where do you get that? And for him to say that before I moved, I honestly thought about what would appeal to all five of my senses where I live, what needs to be in place. And that is a practice that I do in general. If I'm thinking about traveling, or I'm thinking about the next stage of life, what am I going to do if I were to move out of the state or out of the country? What needs to be in place? So my children have really pushed me to think about who I am. They know that I like to have fun. People tend to pull on the more serious side of me, and that people that don't really know me. but they know, my gosh, I was visiting my daughter and they always say, uh-oh, here comes Triple D. And I'm like, what? And so that's That's Rebecca Snyder: What's Triple D? Tell us about that. Pamela Love: drama. And it's just because I can be expressive. And when I used to read to them, I was very expressive and that kind of thing, but makeup games on the spot. So I like to have fun. And they know that. So when they're thinking about me or encouraging me regarding my life, whether it's music, I love music. And so whether it's the music I'm listening to, my son and daughter may send me different songs, some that, you know, I probably would never have looked up if they hadn't sent it to me. They'll send me different messages, but they encourage me to be myself and enjoy my life at this stage. Rebecca Snyder: Now, is that a lesson that you sort of that you're having reflected back at you that maybe you taught them in the in first place? Pamela Love: my children would probably, I would be surprised, but almost I think with certainty, they would say that I was a life coach as a parent. yes. Rebecca Snyder: So what does that look like to life coach as a parent? Pamela Love: Yeah, I think it's the way that I would talk to them and, you know, want to give them, you know, ask questions. I ask a lot of questions. And so what would that look like? And so why do you think you did that? It's that kind of thing. Now, I used to be more directive and prescriptive until my daughter said to me, Mom, let me ask you for advice before you give it to me. And I said, OK. Rebecca Snyder: so hard to remember because we all have such pearls of wisdom. Pamela Love: Yeah, that's right. Rebecca Snyder: But translating that to kind of a leadership in organizations, do you find that what's the line or what's the philosophy between coaching, managing, and leading when you're in an organization because you're drawing on some of those things? maybe is it time and place? Pamela Love: It is. leadership is about influence. So it doesn't necessarily come with a title or position. It's in what ways are you influencing what's happening and based on whatever goals or directives that you have or strategic priorities, whatever that is. So how are you influencing? How are you accomplishing? So managing, how are you accomplishing work through other people? And so whether you are, you could be a manager and not have supervisory role, but if you are managing people, what is it that we need to do to accomplish the goals, priorities that we've been assigned? And then coaching is really about what are your goals? What are we trying to accomplish? What are you trying to accomplish? And how can I use coaching as a tool to help you pull out what's already there? So I don't have to be the expert in the particular area that you're focusing on. Rebecca Snyder: And do you have tips on how, especially female leaders can kind of navigate through those pieces in their day-to-day leadership worlds? Pamela Love: I think there's overlap. There can be overlap. I think you have to look at what role are you playing? What role is needed in a particular moment? But you still show up as the leader. And so you don't want to become the, are you becoming more of a mentor versus a coach? In some cases, they're looking for mentorship, but what does that mean? And with mentorship, you often get to say things that you're not necessarily going to say if you're coaching or just supervising them. So there has to be boundaries with all of it, but those things overlap. So it really depends on the situation. Rebecca Snyder: Now is there a leader out there that you particularly admire that you're trying to sort bring in? Pamela Love: that I tend to try to bring in to. Rebecca Snyder: like incorporate their vibe into your own world or someone that you just admire. Pamela Love: Michelle Obama, First Lady Michelle Obama, love her. The grace that's there, just how she's able to step back but lead powerfully from behind. Yeah, so there are a number of leaders. I tell you, Reverend Toni Draper, I love her humility. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Pamela Love: From the time that I met her, which was many years ago, I watched her in leadership. and how she was really good at delegating to people based on their strengths. And because I asked, I often will ask leaders, how do you do it all? That's my question because I'm always looking for ways to improve what I'm doing. And so when I asked her that, she said that that was one of the things she's really good at delegating to people's strengths and that helps her accomplish more. So. That's another, but yeah, there are a number of people that I truly admire in terms of leadership. And do I try to bring those things in? I just remember some of their practices. I remember who they are as a person. And again, I'm trying to be authentically me. Rebecca Snyder: So admiring but also being true to yourself. So I want to talk about your finisher network because that's, I feel like we don't talk about finishing things. Everyone is so excited about starting. So tell me about why you started the finisher network and what it is. Pamela Love: Finisher's Network is more of a support, provides information support and resources to individuals to help them finish what they start. So what I was finding is that so many people start a lot of things. Think about it at the beginning of the year, January, we have these resolutions, we make all of these goals. And by the end of January, very little has been accomplished for some people, for many people. And why is that? So there are various reasons why they don't. So the Finisher's Network was started to help people, one, identify and disrupt the excuses, because I found that that was really the important thing. can help people to figure out why they're not moving forward, then you can help them to move forward. And I don't have to be the solution to the moving forward or the resource. There are many, many resources to helping them to be able to then take those next steps. For instance, if you're writing a book, they want to write a book. I want to write a book. For the last three years, I've been trying to write a book. OK. Why haven't you written the book? What's going on? So that's really it. It's about resources, information, and support to help people to move forward, make progress, and not excuses. Rebecca Snyder: So when you're in that, and it sounds like disrupting excuses is really kind of the central piece, because once you can get that, then you can figure out, okay, well, how do you move past those? How do you get people to acknowledge all of the excuses? Because it feels like there's probably more than one excuse. It feels tangled. So tell me how you get people to see that. Pamela Love: It's through coaching in some cases. Sometimes it's through support. You might have a group. So I may have accountability groups where Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Pamela Love: we have conversations and other people are able to identify. So I may have different exercises or group where people will have to meet with a cohort of individuals. They have conversations and then they're able to identify what's actually happening. We're looking for honesty. And so sometimes that's in a one-to-one conversation because people are not always willing to open up in a group, but they will if you talk to them long enough. The other thing for me is when it comes to finishing, it's really about, particularly for the Finisher's Network, these are important goals. These are things that are important to you. These are the things that you don't want to close your eyes on this side without having accomplished those things. And a lot of times those things get disrupted. They get pushed aside and people never finish what they start. So that's, I really want to help people identify those specific goals that these are must do's. One exercise I do is to have people to write their obituary, write their eulogy. Rebecca Snyder: OK. Pamela Love: So I want you to think backwards. want you to start, as Stephen Covey will say, start with the end in mind. So start with the end thinking about what is it that you want people to say? You don't control that because you'll be gone, right? You know, at your funeral or whatever. But what is it that you would like for them to say? And then what needs to happen starting today if it hasn't already for you to be able to make that possible? So what is it you want to achieve in your lifetime? Rebecca Snyder: Those feel like very macro ideas to help get individual projects off the ground. Am I getting that right? Pamela Love: When you say it feels like macro. Rebecca Snyder: Yeah, like big picture things talking about this is what I want to be remembered for, this is what I'm here for when you do something like a eulogy. Pamela Love: We're going to drill it down though. What specifically, what have you accomplished? What is it that's in your heart? Generally, Rebecca, people know that there are some things that they really want to accomplish that they keep pushing aside. That's what I'm after. What is that? Rebecca Snyder: Why do they, and is it those limiting excuses? Why are they pushing those things aside? Pamela Love: life. Sometimes it's life, sometimes it's trauma, sometimes they've been told that they can't. It's the limiting belief, it's cognitive distortions. So there are number of things that are going on. It's the loop in the head, it's the story that they're telling themselves. I'm not able to do it, I don't have enough money. You know, one of the ladies in The Life Happens, but You Can Finish book finished her PhD at the age of 70. So her story was, it's never too late. So what do you do? When you're telling yourself these things, I'm too old, I don't have the resources, no one's gonna support me, no one's gonna like my idea, those are the things that prevent people from moving forward. It's some of the core beliefs. Rebecca Snyder: Pam, was there ever a time where you didn't finish a goal? Pamela Love: One hundred percent, yes. No, it it's almost didn't finish my degree. Rebecca Snyder: and you have a doctorate, you so you you had a lot of opportunity, so tell me about it. Pamela Love: Yeah. I started going to school and then I had my son. And I would take courses here or there. I worked for the federal government. I was in grants and contracts. I did personnel consulting. And then I ended up with the electric company in Washington, DC. and then I had this sense that I was supposed to leave. Now had a great job. It it was getting lots of raises. I shouldn't say lots, but like something like four raises a year in the position that I was in. Yeah, it was unheard of. And then a feeling like it's time to go. And no one understood that. But I ended up leaving and as a result went back to school. I wanted to complete my my education and I ended up being in because I was a first generation graduate. that I was in the Ronald McNair post-baccalaureate achievement program. I was a McNair scholar, which required you to go to at least go to graduate school, consider going to graduate school, and ultimately was to get the PhD. I that was never in my plans for Becca. Never to get I wanted the bachelor's and I thought I would be done after that. But because of mentors, it was mentors who really encouraged me and actually enrolled me in in a summer program for a master's program after I finished my bachelor's. So finishing my my bachelor's degree almost didn't happen because life was happening and I needed to make money and I needed to sort help to support the children. And but it was mentorship that really pushed me. Rebecca Snyder: So what did your mentor say to you? I mean, certainly going and signing you up is compelling, but what did the mentor say to you to maybe change that limiting belief? Pamela Love: You have tremendous potential. And it even in the undergrad, there were because I was in the McNair program, we had to present every year. We had to do an academic research paper and present. And so we were assigned mentors who might not be a part of your department. And what we would do is have conversations. And so mentors were really pushing me. And I was going through some very difficult times while I was in undergrad. My children would sometimes go to school with me. And I, you know, so I was navigating life, but there were people who really saw something in me and then they pushed and and gave me opportunities that I don't know that I would have had otherwise. So I ended up doing a summer research internship at University of Maryland. And from that, that led to me going to University of Maryland for a grad school. And from that, that led to a mentor who said, I don't have a director or person to oversee my research department. Would you be willing to do that as an internship? And that turned into a ten year position. So mentoring has and people pulling me along and seeing more in me than I saw in myself has really been a big factor for me in finishing. Rebecca Snyder: So how does that relate to what you do now? I mean, you're you definitely have an idea of paying it forward and you you mentor a lot of people. How does your previous experience show up in the way you mentor now? Pamela Love: Tremendous compassion, tremendous grace for people because I understand that when life happens, how you need to I I understand resilience and what it takes to be able to overcome adversity and and do the things that you're supposed to do. So how does it show up? I do. I extend a lot of grace. you know, it's funny, the the most frequently used word for me is calm. And I want it to be the hype. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Pamela Love: I wanted to be the hype person for back. I wanted to be the person that really hyped people up. But people always say, You're so calm. You're so calm. So how does that show up? I have dealt with a lot of things in my life. I've overcome a lot of things. And consequently, I don't sweat the small stuff as much. There's not a lot that rattles me so much. because I've also had in experiences, whether it was in leadership. We have had to learn how to be measured, but also learn how to support people in a way that's beneficial, to show compassion without taking away responsibility. Rebecca Snyder: Well, and that's a tension that I wanted you to explore a little bit because how do you do that? Pamela Love: Yeah. Yeah, I I you may have had a situation that's devastating, right? and I I'll give you an example. When I was in undergrad, the director of the honors program called me or I called her because my father passed. I was doing a summer research internship and when I called, she said, I said, No, dad has passed. I just, you know, wanted to let you know. And she said, Okay, when are you gonna get the research paper to me? Like what? Are you really? Did I just say my father? However, and and and we're Facebook friends now, right? I still keep in touch with with her. she became president of a university at one point. But she what that instilled in me is no matter what's happening in life, you gotta get it done. And you may need a little more time, but you've got to get it done. Don't make excuses for things. That seemed harsh at the time, but that I now extend to others. It's a reminder that you committed to doing this. And in some cases, other people are counting on you. In many cases, and particularly in leadership, others are counting on you. So, what do you do to deal with your own emotions? How do you deal with what's going through your head, the story that you're telling yourself, so that you can get yourself together to be able to move forward to accomplish what it is that you need to accomplish. Or think it through, get some support to be able to get others to assist you so that it gets done. Because you don't have to do everything. You just n need to know the people who do. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. So that delegation piece is is always critical. I wanted to go back though to you said earlier that you're a first generation college graduate. And so how did that change the stories that you tell yourself when you achieve that degree? Pamela Love: After I achieved the bachelor's degree, again, I went right into the master's program. But you know, I don't know that I had ever thought about the fact that I didn't have a blueprint for a number of things. I didn't have anyone who was saying who who came to campus and said, let's enroll you. So how did that change the the story for me? It helped me to look at the fact that I can do I can do this. that I need to be able to problem solve. I need to reach out for support and ask questions. So rather than thinking that because yeah, let's be honest. For a long time I I thought that I had to do everything myself. Don't ask for support. Don't ask for help. Figure it out. And what that showed me through the various experiences that I had in undergrad, I really didn't need to do it myself, that there are people who will support you. And again, I don't need to have all of the answers, I just need to know the people who do. Rebecca Snyder: How does that apply to organizations? Because you also, you know, a lot of your work is in board governance and sort of that systems thinking. So how do you apply those lessons of leadership and figuring out your own own blueprint to the wider world? Pamela Love: So I think again, I think it's working with the the leadership. It's looking at, you know, I've I've helped some with strategic planning. So where are you looking at, you know, your stakeholders? and then what are those strategic priorities? What are the goals that are that come from that? And then what are the tasks and actions that that need to happen? But being realistic, sometimes people are putting too much on people. So you look at the health of the organization. So it depends on what they want to focus on, but You know, how are you showing up in your role and what are you expecting? Are you being more collaborative or are you encouraging individual thinking? what's the culture? Is it toxic? What has contributed to that toxic toxicity? what can you accomplish that's meaningful? Because you know, culture change can take five to seven or more years depending on the situation. So what's feasible for you to tackle? But really it's about what are the goals. If I'm working with an organization specifically, we're looking at we're assessing what's happening within the organization and what are those pain points, what are the areas that really need to be focused on. Because sometimes they think they need to focus, they meaning leaders, think they need to focus on things that really aren't as much of a priority as they think it is. Rebecca Snyder: It almost feels like the eulogy that you have for an individual is sort of like maybe the strategic plan for for an organization. Is that too much of a stretch that I'm making? Pamela Love: It's not. One thing, you know, I do a lot of work with public defense. It was just in Los Angeles working with leaders of the public defense system recently. And one thing that we talk about is leadership legacy. What do you want your legacy to be? So it yes, very similar. you know, what what impact can you make before you leave? Because that may be by choice or not by choice when you walk out of an organization, but what's going to be your legacy? So yes, we are looking at that. And what do you need to do to move that needle in that direction. Rebecca Snyder: So when you are looking at sort of your legacy and sometimes in an organization you're you're obviously working with, you know, a lot of different people and so forth, do you think it's it's harder to change those systems or is it harder to change yourself inside? Pamela Love: If you're talking about a single leader, then it may be systems. But if you're talking about leadership in general, it's often difficult to change leaders. often the the the well, let me put it this way, the systems can be very challenging because they're so ingrained in the organization. And depending on how large of an organization you're talking about, there are many different layers, right? I remember working for Social Security Administration as an example and even NIH and there were just to get a memo out, you had to go through five or six people and then come back to the office where you had to go, right? The the time, yeah, with with electric Electronic, that that was before you had the you know electronic capacity, but the you know things like that when there are different layers in your on your bureaucracy. So you want to look at that. So it really can take a change. Sometimes your board of directors have to approve those changes and they may not, right? You may have other depending, so it depends on how large the organization is, how many departments, what needs to be changed. There's so many different factors that you have to look at before you can decide. Rebecca Snyder: And those and those shifts can take a really long time. If you have to go through all that bureaucracy, it seems like that's a that's a mountain to climb. Pamela Love: And then again, think about there could be legislation that influences the work that you do also. So Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Pamela Love: there may be certain mandates that you have. So yeah, systems probably takes longer, of course, but it just depends on the size of the organization. Rebecca Snyder: when you think about your own leadership and you're the board chair of Executive Alliance now and and are and sit on a lot of different boards, how does your own leadership journey translate into board service? Pamela Love: How does my leadership journey translate into board service? You know, I believe it's important to serve, first of all, to give back. and with that, I think looking at some of the challenges I've had in leadership, some of the challenges that I've seen others have in leadership has helped me really think about who I am and how I want to be. But I do think that it's important to show up with integrity and so and be principled. So there are certain things I am going to do, and there are certain things I will not do. and so being in leadership over the years in various capacities, whether it was chair of another board or just as a member, and some of the things that I've helped other organizations with in terms of their boards, governance, what's very important? Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Pamela Love: Do you have the structures, systems in place so that you can be effective? But it also has helped me to look at, I think, Rebecca, when I really understand understood the the responsibility that a board member has. I remember being part of a particular board that where people had ended up in the newspaper. I don't Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Pamela Love: n if we're gonna end up in the newspaper, let it be for something very positive, not anything negative. And you know even though you may have directors and officers insurance You don't wanna have to use that, y you know, a except under, you know, extreme circum under certain circumstances I should say. So how has that influenced me? Meaning other being on other boards and all I you know, I think just knowing that I have a responsibility to serve and to give back, but also to help to cultivate a a culture where people also want to give back and and you know and serve, particularly for your smaller grassroots community organizations. Rebecca Snyder: And because those are sort of the backbone of of the nonprofit world, but it's there's a lot of work involved with with those smaller organizations. so is what makes someone because you have also sat on on some large boards and some state appointed boards and commissions, so what makes someone board ready beyond the resume? Pamela Love: It's important for you to to first consider do you have time? You have to look at your your schedule. There are times where people think that they have time or they want to do it, but really haven't determined whether they have the time for that. But also the skills, the knowledge. Are you open? are you a person that can be confidential? I think that's really important. There there are things that you become aware of that you cannot talk to other people. should not. what are you you need to look at whether there's any potential conflicts of interest. So am I serving in another capacity or family member where you know it would be potentially a a conflict of interest for me to serve on that board. So I think it's more than just having the resume. It really is about thinking about your personal characteristics. Are you aligned with or willing to support the mission of that organization? Or is it just because I want to do this because I'll get some money for it or I get recognition. you know do do I understand that there's legal, ethical, and financial responsibilities that come with that? And what does that mean for me if something were to happen and what do I need to do? So but time is really important Rebecca because one thing that I've seen with a number of boards is some people will serve on the board but for title only. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Pamela Love: They're not reviewing the minutes. They're not looking at, you know, being able to come and be informed and or you know have already being informed about the material and what's going on and being able to respond appropriately during meetings. So I think those are some of the things. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. No, and that makes sense. It also I think it goes back to the finisher network, because time is always an excuse. Like I don't have enough time. So how do you how do you encourage people to be realistic about the time something takes? 'cause aren't I know I'm optimistic about time. Pamela Love: Yeah. It's having conversations with maybe the the Board members about what is this going to require? What what type of time commitment are you talking about? you know, I've found that some people don't ask that. Is that how often are we meeting? You know, Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Pamela Love: looked at the bylaws. So are we meeting every single month? Is it every other month? Is it twice a year? What what's the meeting requirement? what days do we meet? You know, do you typically meet? And am I available during that time? So I think there's some questions talking to other board members to ascertain. Whether or not, you know, if the commitment that the general commitment, am I able to fulfill it, doesn't mean that you're going to show up for everything. Because typically there, you know, sometimes in bylaws it'll say about attendance. You know, if you haven't attended X number of meetings, you're no longer that kind of thing. But I think really deciding whether or not what's on my plate. Sometimes we have plates, right? And am I willing to commit even when I don't think I have the time, right? Because there are many things that I've done, Rebecca, that I would say, I don't have time for that. I really don't have time for that. Right. You probably would say the same Rebecca Snyder: What do you mean? Pamela Love: thing, right? But we make time. Time expands to what we're doing. So it's really Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Pamela Love: about how committed am I to this particular cause or mission? how what what is what purpose is it serving for me to serve on this board? Is this for self-interest? Is this for advancing my career? Is it for increased opportunities? For what purpose am I am I even interested in serving on this board? So time plays into all of that because if it is to advance your career or if it's, you know, altruistic, whatever it is, then you think about What do if I'm saying yes to this, what am I saying no to? Rebecca Snyder: Right. Well and and as we wind up and because I could talk to you for a long time, but I w I want to respect be respectful of your time, you've worked in a lot of women-centered spaces throughout your career. And so I wanted to know what responsibility do you think executive women or accomplished women have to those coming coming behind, coming up? Pamela Love: It's important for women to share the cost of leadership. And to help train those that are coming behind. I think that's really important. There we we're seeing a shift in culture in general, how people show up, what's expected. we're seeing attacks on women, bottom line, right? And as a result, how do we support one another? How do we help you to have that resilience to be able to endure when there are articles in the paper about you that are false, that there's an narrative that's being put out in the public and how do you still get up and come to work every day and do what you need to do in the midst of those kinds of challenges. So I think that it's we we've got to look at what's required of leadership. Thanks talking to women about being sponsors is very important. How do you sponsor how do you mentor how do you help women to develop a plan for where they're trying to get to there are many women Rebecca I was one of them that nobody said Let's develop a a plan for your life. Let's for your career. If you do Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Pamela Love: this, then you can do this. It's the if-thens. No one sat down and did that. I was figuring things out on my own. And I think we have to do a better job of supporting. And you know, fortunately with Executive Alliance, we've got the mentoring program. We have a number of programs that really support women. And I'm and I'm grateful for that. I I don't know that I'd be a part if we didn't have certain some things in place. but we really are an organization that supports. the advancement of women. And so I think being able to provide those roadmaps, being able to have honest conversations and allow women to express that, you know, this is hard. I don't know how to negotiate for you know, a pay increase. These are those Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Pamela Love: things that you see in our mentoring program, which I think is really helpful. So those are just some of the things that I think are help that we need to really help because I'm seeing such an attack on women right now and it's Diminishing self-esteem. It's causing people to rethink what they're doing and how they're doing it, which really causes you to second guess yourself in some cases. And I think that's intentional in some spaces. So what can we do to help women? I think we be there for them. We help to see how we can open doors for them to up new opportunities to prep help to prepare them for those opportunities. If they've never gone in a particular space, give them networking opportunities that we do with our you know with the events that we have to help the women network, but how do you show up? I remember going into one of my first board meetings and there were probably 50 members on this board. I think I was the only black female at that particular time. And I walked in the room and no one had told me how they show up in a boardroom. And I walked in and I sat and and I saw, you know, different people talking and you know there was kind of a cocktail hour. And I went and sat down. And I sat there for a second and I looked up and I said, Nobody else. I'm this is my self-talk. Nobody else is sitting down. I think I'm supposed to get up and walk around. And that's what I began to do. So I learned. So the Those are the things that I share with people that I may mentor or who are saying, I just joined a board or I'm looking at going on a board. There those are the kinds of conversations to have them because people are looking at how you carry yourself. They're listening Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Pamela Love: to what you say. They're looking at do you eat before the coast comes in. There you know, there are things that if no one ever taught you that, you'll blunder and it and then there are missed opportunities as a result of that. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. So when you're the only Pamela Love: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: when you're the only woman or woman of color in a space, how does that change how you move in that space? Pamela Love: For a while I was very uncomfortable Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Pamela Love: and so I would just I would observe. And but over time I learned to to speak up in a way that I would be heard. So for instance once I made a comment about something that I thought would be beneficial and there was no response. And someone else made the same a a a male man made the same comment. So yes. And so initially I I was like, wait a minute, did I just said that? And so over time I learned to say thank you. I that was exactly what I was saying a minute ago. I said the same exact thing. So I learned I had to learn how to respond. But that also came from listening to other women in leadership who began to teach me certain things and and mentors. And so, you know, as you can see, I can't emphasize the the importance of mentoring enough. It's been played a a very important and pivotal role in my life. Rebecca Snyder: Well, Pam, thank you so much for spending time with me today. This has been such a great conversation. I appreciate you and all the work that you do. And hope to talk to you soon. Pamela Love: You Rebecca. It's been a pleasure. And I'm sure you found out more than you a than you realized, Correct. All right. Thank you so Rebecca Snyder: All to the good, I love it. All right, thank you. Pamela Love: much.